Bring the Boyz and Girlz home

[pilot]

Finally made a decision. I no longer support the "war". Yes, I do care for our troops and all the civilian contractors doing their jobs. But, when it comes to the lives, time and money lost over there... nope, it's not worth it anymore.

The only news blip I saw was that C. Rice was in Egypt demonstrating support by informing Egypt that we are willing to provide BILLIONS IN MILITARY HARDWARE (see sales) AID to them and other countries to show our commitment to the war against terrorism. The balance of the news was about, "how to pick a bed pillow, Shaq's fat camp, and picking the best credit card, and, oh yah, pigeon control in Hollywood."

And yes, I understand that someday, somewhere in the country, another act of terrorism will take place. --vigilance is key.

I drove by a Denver school yesterday. It was in poor condition. Time to reinvest in the good 'ol USA. And, I guess it is OK if I pay more for gas.

Some of you will agree. Some of you will disagree. Most of you will not have a public opinion.

Pilot
HDV, USAF

[mtnairlover]

My opinion right now is mostly based on emotion, not fact, but here goes...I don't support the decisions being made now, nor was I ever that sure that the correct course was what we took in '03 with Iraq. Yeah, Afghanistan had to happen and dealing with what's his butt, but he was never caught and the problem still exists. The problem needs to be dealt with in a different manner...what manner? I have no idea, but what's going on now is not working. Oh yeah, sure, lots of companies are making a "killing" by winning government contracts, etc. But, do those contracts really benefit the lil' guy? What's happening to our schools? To education in America? What's happening on the domestic front as a whole? Honestly, is there improvement anywhere?

I want the soldiers home. So many of them have gone back for 2nd, 3rd, 4th (etc.) tours and nothing has changed...only that many of them are getting weary as well. Sure, a soldier fights a good fight and morale has to stay strong, but at what price? I'm tired. Show me that something has changed for the better and I might change my mind...but I want the government to stop funneling money into something that isn't working by bringing back the soldiers and completely switching focus. Our children, the soldiers' children deserve better.

[Nick_Ninja]

Finally made a decision. I no longer support the "war". <snip>
Pilot
HDV, USAF

What took you so long?

[pilot]

What took you so long?Jeff, I don't that is the "issue" here. Each of us come to our own in time. What does matter is what happens next. Not just by myself, but by you and others, too.

[Nick_Ninja]

The country is a better place now that you have taken your stand against the war.

[636Chick]

Its a hard and fine line on this one

I support the human beings that are over there because they have dedicated their lives to and for our freedom they are doing what they have been ordered to do.

I support the reason behind the war just not the method, I guess. I do believe that we entered into something that we can never win or never be rid of so when will we have lost enough men and women to say enough is enough and leave a very bad and what I feel is hopeless situation.

[pilot]

The country is a better place now that you have taken your stand against the war.Again, your off the point. Try a different angle.

[Mother Goose]

Someone watched Wife Swap last night. :lol:

[Devaclis]

Pilot, pick up a book called Market Forces by Richard K, Morgan. It coins a term called "Conflict Investment" where major multinational companies are actually investing in wars to make a profit. Total fiction but a great read. It will make you look at the global economy as it relates to the cast and rewards of war in a totally different way!

[pilot]

Pilot, pick up a book called Market Forces by Richard K, Morgan. It coins a term called "Conflict Investment" where major multinational companies are actually investing in wars to make a profit. Total fiction but a great read. It will make you look at the global economy as it relates to the cast and rewards of war in a totally different way!The Bush clan was doing this back before World War II, supporting Nazi Germany in their efforts. Then came the Lend/Lease Act. For a time (late 30's/start of the 40's we were selling to all sides). I enjoy reading about history. I just don't do it as much as I'd like. Thanks Dana, I'll keep an eye out for the book.

[Devaclis]

Yeah this is a fiction piece, not too much history in it, but it is a great read. Probably going to be a training manual for future conglomerates.

[rforsythe]

There's been a lot of recent discussion about Hamiltonian economics, and why those principles have sustained our country's wars until now, and how our recent complete departure from that to faith-based economics (which has nothing to do with religion, it's more of a "things will work out in the end" mindset with no real plan) is absolute catastrophe in the making. I'll try to find a link, but I'm sure Google can turn up something on it too.

[Nick_Ninja]

Again, your off the point. Try a different angle.


The point is either:


You support he war or you don't.
You support the current Washington administration or you don't.
You are either one of the 27% or you aren't.
You support the 12 billion dollars a month our country spends on the fuckin ware or you don't.

[Sortarican]

We had a warning from the last Republican president I respected in 1961:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence,
whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex.
The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. "
Dwight D. Eisenhower

[pilot]

The point is either:

You support he war or you don't.
You support the current Washington administration or you don't.
You are either one of the 27% or you aren't.
You support the 12 billion dollars a month our country spends on the fuckin ware or you don't.
Answer: No to all of the above. How about you?

[pilot]

We had a warning from the last Republican president I respected in 1961:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence,
whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex.
The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. "
Dwight D. EisenhowerThis was brought up recently on Frontline. Which, along with Leftee television (PBS), BBC and DWT is about the only place one can get a quick handle on things. Hell, the major networks CBS, etc. don't even have full time reps in country anymore. Now, what was that cool recipe for Good Morning America muffins?

[Snowman]

Fine, now that we are in agreement that starting a war in Iraq had nothing to do with …

fighting those who attacked on September 11th
its leader hiding Weapons of Mass Destruction
instituting a democratic government because it was what the Iraqi people wanted.So the only way we are going to get our forces home is to get congress is to impeach both Bush and Chaney, and cut the funds for this war completely. This of course raises its own problems...

First, if we said stop today it would take from 8 months to a year before all our forces could be withdrawn. There are simply too many there and with all their equipment to move them out any faster.

Second, it would unleash a civil war and collapse what little government they have in place right now.

Third, because we moved in the threw out the dictator Sadam it allowed Al Qaeda to set up shop there, where they couldn’t have before. We are responsible for that. As Colon Powel said before Bush ordered our troops in “If we break, it we bought it…”

Unfortunately this seems to leave us with no good options. If we stay in it will be years before anything is stabilized or even maybe never, we leave today we know the government will collapse and the US will be blamed as an aggressor nation that doesn’t take responsibility for its actions.

And after all of that we still have another entire war to finish with those that attached us on September 11th.

[pilot]

I broke something once, I ran like hell after that. Sure, I paid a bit later for it. But, I survived. These United States, we've made a few mistakes in the past. Other countries have been in and now they're out. I suppose we can leave the guys in charge with our equipment. Instead of bringing home all that broken worn out material. Then we can employ ourselves to build new stuff for "OUR" military---not the other guys.

In the old days, armies just started marching out. I'm sure if we gave our troops the option of marching out (and yes I mean straight through to Europe through every country in the way) that they would take that over 8 months to a year to get out. Besides, who is going to get in the way of a bunch of guys and gals buying every trinket they can lay their hands on as they pass through? OK, fire away on that one.

[puckstr]

Attack Iraq???? not now but back in the day
Yep
We should have done this in 1988.
Yes 1988 when the USS Stark was ATTACKED with 2 Exocet Missles by who? The Iraqis. Yes Sadam. But did we do anything??? NOOOooooo
Because Ronald Regan was backing Sadam Against the Iranians.

I was in the Navy then, and let me tell ya we were ready to dish out some much needed Pay Back.

Again The so called "leaders" let Americans service men die with no recourse.

What about this. Let's let the world leaders settle there differences Man-to-Man Hand-to-Hand and we will pay per view it. A battle to the death.
Now I would pay to see that.

But Bush would never go for that. He is just a little Pussy

[Sortarican]

This was brought up recently on Frontline. Which, along with Leftee television (PBS), BBC and DWT is about the only place one can get a quick handle on things...

Daljit Dhaliwal was hot!
(Oh yeah baby, tell me 'bout the strife in semolia....work it.....work it.):hump:
4823

..... Let's let the world leaders settle there differences Man-to-Man Hand-to-Hand and we will pay per view it. A battle to the death.

CAGE MATCH!!!!!!

[D-Man]

Just a thought: Looking back, it was a mistake to overthrow Sadaam and put troops on the ground in Iraq. Should have just let him murder his people however he chooses. After all, it was his country.
Al-Queada moved in because it was not far for them to go and it was a front to fight America on . They have to fund their war and military also.
I imagine the majority of their money is going to the fight in Irag.
Had we not gone to Iraq, would they be spending their money on the fight in America?
I think the real mistake was not realizing the civil strife that would erupt after the removal of Sadaam. I think the Bush administration should have realized it before moving into Iraq and had a plan to overcome it.
There was only a plan to remove Sadaam but not a plan for "post Sadaam Iraq"
I will also say this, that if this war succeeded, it would have been the greatest accomplishment to peace in the middle east in recorded history.
To have another friendly goverment smack in the middle of that entire shithole of the middle east, would have been a tremendous help to our fight on Islamic terrorists.

[pilot]

Just a thought: Looking back, it was a mistake to overthrow Sadaam and put troops on the ground in Iraq. Should have just let him murder his people however he chooses. After all, it was his country.
Al-Queada moved in because it was not far for them to go and it was a front to fight America on . They have to fund their war and military also.
I imagine the majority of their money is going to the fight in Irag.
Had we not gone to Iraq, would they be spending their money on the fight in America?
I think the real mistake was not realizing the civil strife that would erupt after the removal of Sadaam. I think the Bush administration should have realized it before moving into Iraq and had a plan to overcome it.
There was only a plan to remove Sadaam but not a plan for "post Sadaam Iraq"
I will also say this, that if this war succeeded, it would have been the greatest accomplishment to peace in the middle east in recorded history.
To have another friendly goverment smack in the middle of that entire shithole of the middle east, would have been a tremendous help to our fight on Islamic terrorists.Terrorist come in all shapes and sizes. Tim knocked down the fed building in Oklahoma, I don't think he yelled Allah! in the end. Then there are others that burn down churches, schools, abortion, anti-abortion clinics, pet stores, etc. This was a job for the CIA. Having been there, a bit, it is a black mark, but serves a purpose.

There are tones of crimes being committed by leaders throughout the world and we don't do much about those.

[pilot]

Daljit Dhaliwal was hot!
(Oh yeah baby, tell me 'bout the strife in semolia....work it.....work it.):hump:
4823



CAGE MATCH!!!!!!Kinda looks like my X. She was from Eastern Europe. Matta-a-fact, she was a communist! And a SPY! Don't believe me, check with the FBI, ha.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Well, I was in favor of it too, but there comes a time where you must let the country stand by and FOR itself. The difference is, in all the other wars we fought, the beaten forces were smart enough to surrender, for the sake of their country. They understood that they'd lost, and that continued fighting will not accomplish anything but more bloodshed. These animals are not smart enough to figure this out, and will continue the sectarian violence forever, as they have always done for thousands of years. We cannot change their culture, which is the root of all this evil, and there will never be democratic rule in that part of the world, only theologic rule by whichever side can unleash the most violence. Sad to say, but I too have given up on the Eye-Rackies evolving into thinking human beings, and no longer share the President's optimism that it will eventually be all right. We should take what we can (oil) to pay us taxpayers back for this crap, pull out, and let the blood bath begin. Grab some popcorn, would ya? Nuke and pave, have the Marines paint the stripes on our fresh new glass parking lot in New Texas!

The only thing we need to remember and guard against, is the fact that in war, usually the time of heaviest casualties occurs during retreat. We need to watch our backs when we bring them home.

Maybe it's time to quit saving someone else's ass, and worry about our own. The other countries all pulled out without leaving a vacuum because they knew WE'D be the last out, so everyone else could lay the blame on us.

[Nick_Ninja]

Kinda looks like my X. She was from Eastern Europe. Matta-a-fact, she was a communist! And a SPY! Don't believe me, check with the FBI, ha.

Answer: No to all of the above. How about you?

Ditto. And wasn't her name Yolanda?

[Duc'nnit]

Everyone is missing the point, what needs to happen now is "Annexation". :hump: With Iraq we are able to establish our 51st and 52nd new addition to our states. The Suni's and Kurd's can each sharecrop off each other over a divided poppy field line.

The new American Embassy going up in Iraq is better built than Fort Knox, meaning we will be there for a very long time and it will serve as the new Washington DC for the Middle East. :alien:

I mean come on, let's annex them and start making them pay taxes so that we can get our money back. We send in the Texas oil barons to start playing monopoly with the oil wells, then send in the California farmers to start growing crops. <Did you know that California is the 5th largest Gross Domestic Product entity in the world?>

Regardless of what appears in eye and ear candy, we will never leave Iraq. Oh, you may see some troops come home.......but we will be there past our grand children's children. Besides the Saudi's want us there so that they do not have to deal with it. :siesta:

[pilot]

Ditto. And wasn't her name Yolanda?No, but did you know Yo?

[Mental]

I stay out of political debates, but the nation has failed to recognize that we are actually fighting on three fronts. I can't blame them, I mean Nicole may be preggers!
http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=282720

[Kanabiis]

I will also say this, that if this war succeeded, it would have been the greatest accomplishment to peace in the middle east in recorded history.


I disagree, peace in Iraq with a puppet government would have had the same effect as the peace in Iraq had with Saddam in power.

You have to remember, Saddam had not done anything in 12 years, since Bush Sr. kicked him out of Kuwait. The US Government even classified Bagdahad in 1998 as the safest city in the middle east for an American Citizen to visit.

Other then Israel, Iraq was the only other country in the Middle East not ruled by Islamic fundamentalists. Because of that, Iraq had very little influence on any other nation in the region. If we ever secure the nation and Iraq becomes an ally, the other nations in the middle east would care less, and no amount of pressure from Iraq with our without Saddam would influence any of the other countries.

Peace in the Middle East through war in Iraq is a lie, a myth, and a pipe dream, dreamt up by rich white men who have absolutely no idea how the real world works. These guys couldn't tell you the price of a loaf of bread, or gallon of milk accurately they are so out of touch with the world, and yet they believed they really had the answer for our problems.

The other great lie is that we would be fighting the terrorists in the street if we werent fighting them in Iraq. BULLSHIT... Many people today are too young to remember this, but America was told the same damn lie about Vietnam, we were fighting in Vietnam so that we wouldn't have to fight the communists here in our streets. Look terrorism has been around for a long time, the only people fighting terrorists in the streets are the Israelis and that problem is a HELL of a lot more complicated then any issue Bin Laden and his group have with us.

Up until this administration, we had a pretty god damned good track record of catching and dealing with the Terrorists that did decide to attack us. The original World Trade Center bombers, yea, they are dead or in prison, the terrorists that blew up Flight 800, 1 dead, 2 in prison, the country of Libya was forced by the world court to pay the families of the victims. The bombers of the US Embassy, 2 dead, 3 caught, 1 still being looked for. We did all of this without any military attacks on any country, my point being that this administration DECIDED not to get Bin Laden, they used the terrorist attacks of 9/11 for political and personal gain rather then justice. That is a fucking crime......... and the people of the US let them get away with it.

[pilot]

I disagree, peace in Iraq with a puppet government would have had the same effect as the peace in Iraq had with Saddam in power.

You have to remember, Saddam had not done anything in 12 years, since Bush Sr. kicked him out of Kuwait. The US Government even classified Bagdahad in 1998 as the safest city in the middle east for an American Citizen to visit.

Other then Israel, Iraq was the only other country in the Middle East not ruled by Islamic fundamentalists. Because of that, Iraq had very little influence on any other nation in the region. If we ever secure the nation and Iraq becomes an ally, the other nations in the middle east would care less, and no amount of pressure from Iraq with our without Saddam would influence any of the other countries.

Peace in the Middle East through war in Iraq is a lie, a myth, and a pipe dream, dreamt up by rich white men who have absolutely no idea how the real world works. These guys couldn't tell you the price of a loaf of bread, or gallon of milk accurately they are so out of touch with the world, and yet they believed they really had the answer for our problems.

The other great lie is that we would be fighting the terrorists in the street if we werent fighting them in Iraq. BULLSHIT... Many people today are too young to remember this, but America was told the same damn lie about Vietnam, we were fighting in Vietnam so that we wouldn't have to fight the communists here in our streets. Look terrorism has been around for a long time, the only people fighting terrorists in the streets are the Israelis and that problem is a HELL of a lot more complicated then any issue Bin Laden and his group have with us.

Up until this administration, we had a pretty god damned good track record of catching and dealing with the Terrorists that did decide to attack us. The original World Trade Center bombers, yea, they are dead or in prison, the terrorists that blew up Flight 800, 1 dead, 2 in prison, the country of Libya was forced by the world court to pay the families of the victims. The bombers of the US Embassy, 2 dead, 3 caught, 1 still being looked for. We did all of this without any military attacks on any country, my point being that this administration DECIDED not to get Bin Laden, they used the terrorist attacks of 9/11 for political and personal gain rather then justice. That is a fucking crime......... and the people of the US let them get away with it.Beg to differ, but we did fly F-111s into Libya.

[Kanabiis]

Beg to differ, but we did fly F-111s into Libya.

Yes, but those were not in retaliation for terrorist attacks on American soil, that was in response to the Lybian governments territorial claims on the Gulf of Sidra, and the military skirmishes resulting from that fight.

The Lockerbie Flight 103 bombing happened in 1988, 2 years after the US bombing of Lybia.

The bombing of Lybia in 1986 was a valid military engagement against another sovereign nations military.

History of the Sidra conflict. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_El_Dorado_Canyon)

[pilot]

I remember something about K's support for certain terrorists and a couple of rounds being fired into his tent. It is all in the way we look at things. One man's war is another man's engagement, conflict, skirmish, etc. Thank you for providing the link. I'll check it out.

[Kanabiis]

I remember something about K's support for certain terrorists and a couple of rounds being fired into his tent. It is all in the way we look at things. One man's war is another man's engagement, conflict, skirmish, etc. Thank you for providing the link. I'll check it out.

Oh, there is no question about support from Muammar Gaddafi's regime twords terrorist organizations. The World Court ordered payment because of it.

We just never attacked Lybia as a response to a terrorist attack...

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Nuke and pave, I tell ya!

[Duc'nnit]

Nuke and pave, I tell ya!

Hear Ye, Hear Ye Do I hear a motion on the floor for "Nuke and Pave"? :bananna::bananna: :fire: :nuke:

[lightning126zp]

Pilot, pick up a book called Market Forces by Richard K, Morgan. It coins a term called "Conflict Investment" where major multinational companies are actually investing in wars to make a profit. Total fiction but a great read. It will make you look at the global economy as it relates to the cast and rewards of war in a totally different way!
Yep...KBR (Kellogg Brown and Root) is one of them. Although they serve some kick butt chow over there.

[Kanabiis]

Yep...KBR (Kellogg Brown and Root) is one of them. Although they serve some kick butt chow over there.

Funny how everything in Iraq somehow points right back to Dick Cheney and company...

KBR untill very very recently was the largest subsidiary of Halliburton..

You know, that company Cheney was CEO of until he got a promotion to Vice President......

[greenramp]

I have posted some controversial things regarding this current "situation". here is where I stand. Bring them home... i only feel this because I believe we will have a bigger war to fight in the very near future. Those who caused and rejoiced over 9/11 are still out there and will not rest until their goal has been accomplished.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
Edmund Burke: Irish statesman 1729-1787
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/

[D-Man]

I disagree, peace in Iraq with a puppet government would have had the same effect as the peace in Iraq had with Saddam in power.

You have to remember, Saddam had not done anything in 12 years, since Bush Sr. kicked him out of Kuwait. The US Government even classified Bagdahad in 1998 as the safest city in the middle east for an American Citizen to visit.

Other then Israel, Iraq was the only other country in the Middle East not ruled by Islamic fundamentalists. Because of that, Iraq had very little influence on any other nation in the region. If we ever secure the nation and Iraq becomes an ally, the other nations in the middle east would care less, and no amount of pressure from Iraq with our without Saddam would influence any of the other countries.

Peace in the Middle East through war in Iraq is a lie, a myth, and a pipe dream, dreamt up by rich white men who have absolutely no idea how the real world works. These guys couldn't tell you the price of a loaf of bread, or gallon of milk accurately they are so out of touch with the world, and yet they believed they really had the answer for our problems.

The other great lie is that we would be fighting the terrorists in the street if we werent fighting them in Iraq. BULLSHIT... Many people today are too young to remember this, but America was told the same damn lie about Vietnam, we were fighting in Vietnam so that we wouldn't have to fight the communists here in our streets. Look terrorism has been around for a long time, the only people fighting terrorists in the streets are the Israelis and that problem is a HELL of a lot more complicated then any issue Bin Laden and his group have with us.

Up until this administration, we had a pretty god damned good track record of catching and dealing with the Terrorists that did decide to attack us. The original World Trade Center bombers, yea, they are dead or in prison, the terrorists that blew up Flight 800, 1 dead, 2 in prison, the country of Libya was forced by the world court to pay the families of the victims. The bombers of the US Embassy, 2 dead, 3 caught, 1 still being looked for. We did all of this without any military attacks on any country, my point being that this administration DECIDED not to get Bin Laden, they used the terrorist attacks of 9/11 for political and personal gain rather then justice. That is a fucking crime......... and the people of the US let them get away with it.

I disagree in return. Sadaam did do something, I seem to recall about 17 UN resolutions that were not being adhered to.
As for fighting the Jihad in our streets if we were not fighting them in Iraq, that you can take to the bank. The Islamic fundamentalists have one goal in mind, kill Americans. This cannot be denied. Every dollar they spend fighting in Iraq, is one less dollar they can spend fighting on American soil or attacking an embassy or one of our allies. It also costs them financially to fund a war. And if anyone thinks we are fighting this war for financial gain, think of our enemy who's suicidal bombers families are being paid great sums of money for their acts of terrorism.
You also stated that up until this administration, terrorist acts against America have been under control. You have blindfolded yourself.
Before this administration, the terrorists were building their network and training, preparing themselves for their Jihad. All under the watchful eye of the Clinton administration.
Now our next biggest threat is Iran. Wouldn't it be nice to have another friendly gov't/military, that would pressure Ahmedinejad and the Iatollah.
The biggest pressure that could be put on Iran is from it's own people.
If they were to see prosperous Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq, they would pressure their own government and get them to play ball with the international community, and drop their nuclear ambitions.

[pilot]

Terrorist training to attack Americans: They're gonna have a hard time pickin us out amongst the crowd:

http://www.dougwinfield.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/city-poster-a-syd-uni500.jpg

[Nick_Ninja]

You are so generic ------------------------ the faces are .............. well ...............

[R1chie]

I disagree in return. Sadaam did do something, I seem to recall about 17 UN resolutions that were not being adhered to.
As for fighting the Jihad in our streets if we were not fighting them in Iraq, that you can take to the bank. The Islamic fundamentalists have one goal in mind, kill Americans. This cannot be denied. Every dollar they spend fighting in Iraq, is one less dollar they can spend fighting on American soil or attacking an embassy or one of our allies. It also costs them financially to fund a war. And if anyone thinks we are fighting this war for financial gain, think of our enemy who's suicidal bombers families are being paid great sums of money for their acts of terrorism.
You also stated that up until this administration, terrorist acts against America have been under control. You have blindfolded yourself.
Before this administration, the terrorists were building their network and training, preparing themselves for their Jihad. All under the watchful eye of the Clinton administration.
Now our next biggest threat is Iran. Wouldn't it be nice to have another friendly gov't/military, that would pressure Ahmedinejad and the Iatollah.
The biggest pressure that could be put on Iran is from it's own people.
If they were to see prosperous Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq, they would pressure their own government and get them to play ball with the international community, and drop their nuclear ambitions.

Wasted breath. All the points have been discussed adnausium and it won't change the minds of people who are so easily influenced by the media and other leftist points of view. I don't even discuss it anymore because I would rather ride. Democracies that promote freedom are our best defense against Islamic regimes and terrorists. I do like this quote though "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" The religious terrorists have been praying that the democrats would be voted in because they see Americans as weak and not able to show intestinal fortitude, seems they will get their prayers answered.

[D-Man]

Wasted breath. All the points have been discussed adnausium and it won't change the minds of people who are so easily influenced by the media and other leftist points of view. I don't even discuss it anymore because I would rather ride. Democracies that promote freedom are our best defense against Islamic regimes and terrorists. I do like this quote though "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" The religious terrorists have been praying that the democrats would be voted in because they see Americans as weak and not able to show intestinal fortitude, seems they will get their prayers answered.

You're right, I need to heed your advice. I just get so angry at these "head in the sand" ideals. But you did bring up a good point, the terrorists are hoping the democrats succeed (another point that cannot be denied)

[pilot]

Wasted breath. All the points have been discussed adnausium and it won't change the minds of people who are so easily influenced by the media and other leftist points of view. I don't even discuss it anymore because I would rather ride. Democracies that promote freedom are our best defense against Islamic regimes and terrorists. I do like this quote though "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" The religious terrorists have been praying that the democrats would be voted in because they see Americans as weak and not able to show intestinal fortitude, seems they will get their prayers answered.Rich, you are a smart "worldly" guy. I'm not going to get into a debate with you about this but I thought I'd point out that you first say that "ALL points have been discussed and it won't change the minds of people so easily influenced..." That sound like an "expert" on the subject telling people that "this is the way it is--nothing else". Gee, I remember when a group of scientists were talking about plate movement on the earths surface and the majority of of geologists said that nothing new was out there and that they were nuts for brining it up. "A closed mind is a stupid mind".

[clustermagnet]

What took you so long?

high five :)

[clustermagnet]

Its a hard and fine line on this one

I support the human beings that are over there because they have dedicated their lives to and for our freedom they are doing what they have been ordered to do.

I support the reason behind the war just not the method, I guess. I do believe that we entered into something that we can never win or never be rid of so when will we have lost enough men and women to say enough is enough and leave a very bad and what I feel is hopeless situation.

you're crazy, when has war been the answer to anything?

[R1chie]

Rich, you are a smart "worldly" guy. I'm not going to get into a debate with you about this but I thought I'd point out that you first say that "ALL points have been discussed and it won't change the minds of people so easily influenced..." That sound like an "expert" on the subject telling people that "this is the way it is--nothing else". Gee, I remember when a group of scientists were talking about plate movement on the earths surface and the majority of of geologists said that nothing new was out there and that they were nuts for brining it up. "A closed mind is a stupid mind".


I guess my point was that there are experts in the field looking at this problem from democrats and republicans, those with information we are not privy to. People here get into debate with little knowledge. They quote the web, liberal media, what have you. We have all heard all this before. Then people start down the personal attack road when someone doesn't agree with them or thinks some peice of information trumps everthing else. So my point was there is little point debating it and it only leads to personal attack, so why bother. Not that I am an expert, far from it but I read post by people who do think they are an expert and if you try to debate it they become offended.

If the idea is to reduce drama then discussions of politics, religion which are generally considered forbidden in social circles should not be discussed. I am not saying moderaters should kill these posts or and trying to impose my will on anyone, I just informed D-man it is a waste of time. IMHO of course, because that has been my experinece on this site.

[dirkterrell]

Gee, I remember when a group of scientists were talking about plate movement on the earths surface

Your description of the continental drift debate is a gross oversimplification and actually quite misleading. It had nothing to do with being "closed minded." I'll resist the urge to hijack the thread though.

Dirk

[#1Townie]

you know its not so much as why we started the war anymore... its should be about finishing what we started... this country has no back bone... this thread shows it... what ever happen to no matter the cost let the red white and blue be on top.... this country is so ready to give up at everything no wounder we look like retards in the world today.... when japan hit us we stood our ground and fought till we won... how long did we have guys behind enemy lines??? did we ever realy get them all back??? none the less no matter how many years it took us to get back to those guys we did.... i respect what our troops are doing.. i dont care what the reasons are anymore... i say we let them keep fighting till they come out on top... let them finish a job WE sent them to do... dont dis-honor the ones that have died by giving up, then it would be a waste...

[Nick_Ninja]

It's not about 'giving up'. It's about right and wrong.

[#1Townie]

im not going to get into this any more then what i have said... but i will use one example... we left N. korea... the same way we are about leave iraq... N. korea now has nooks and is willing to use them...

[xxuxx]

While democracy is great, I not sure Iraq is really for it just yet. Given the religious fanaticism, predjudice toward women, etc etc I don't believe the country could support our wonderful idea called "freedom". Their culture needs to grow before they can begin to comprehend western values such as freedom of speech etc.; perhaps they never will. I don't think we should force it on them.

[R1chie]

While democracy is great, I not sure Iraq is really for it just yet. Given the religious fanaticism, predjudice toward women, etc etc I don't believe the country could support our wonderful idea called "freedom". Their culture needs to grow before they can begin to comprehend western values such as freedom of speech etc.; perhaps they never will. I don't think we should force it on them.

If you were a woman living in Iraq, who was taken off and raped by one of Saddams sons, you may feel differently. But I could be wrong, women over there may not understand the value of not being raped. Every free country has religious fanaticism, most free countries have had prejudice towards women (how long before women could vote in the US?) Our culture grew because of freedom. Iraq now has that chance but if we pull out, we may be handing the country back to the same people that were in power and would go back to oppressing the people again. Now they have a choice and a vote, the hope is they don't vote people in that take them down the same oppressive path.

[mtnairlover]

... I don't believe the country could support our wonderful idea called "freedom". Their culture needs to grow before they can begin to comprehend western values such as freedom of speech etc.; perhaps they never will. I don't think we should force it on them.

You're right xxuxx, and it's unfortunate not enough people understand that idea.

Unfortunately, my idea of why we're over there in the first place is a little less idealistic...I don't think the idea was to free a people with forced democracy, although a democracy would make it easier for big companies to do business over there, which is what it all boils down to in the first place.

[Snowman]

Ok let’s just get the reason for the war in Iraq straight here.

In Bush’s State of the Union Address in 2003 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html), there was nothing about bringing democracy to anyone and there was nothing about starting a second front with Al Qudia so that they would not strike here.

His reason was that Sadam had Weapon of Mass Destruction that he could (or sell to other) use on the US. He did this by implying the Sadam had some part in September 11th. Linking him t to those terrorists.

The fact is he was wrong in those assumptions. But that is no longer the issue anymore. We have to clean this mess up.

We are responsible, we have to pay to fix it, we have to hold those accountable so they can not do it again.

In my opinion, Congress should get off its butt (because that is why we put them into office) and impeach the Bush Administration, (the whole thing).

Then replace the executive branch with people that will put pressure on the Iraq government to take charge of their own country, and then bring our people home.

We still have a war to fight, we still need to find those that caused 9-11 and make them accountable.
http://www.pifflemag.co.uk/images/newsimages/osama.jpg
IT HAS BEEN 6 YEARS… WHY IS THIS MAN STILL ALIVE?

[Kanabiis]

http://www.pifflemag.co.uk/images/newsimages/osama.jpg
IT HAS BEEN 6 YEARS… WHY IS THIS MAN STILL ALIVE?

Because its never been about Bin Laden.....

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthinkprogress.org%2F2006%2F09%2F1 4%2Fbarnes-osama%2F&ei=Tu6xRp-7B5jiigHelegt&usg=AFQjCNFefEMEicudrKIkSLycm4IMhQ_a2w&sig2=TNDM1pEmre-GF9sJpwcU-A)


"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02) (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmediamatters.org%2Fitems%2F200609 140009&ei=Tu6xRp-7B5jiigHelegt&usg=AFQjCNGvbIHb3xJNO5l46IVFNHYgCYEtqA&sig2=TV-p6E-4Xc3Lm8bCHsJenQ)

[pilot]

If you were a woman living in Iraq, who was taken off and raped by one of Saddams sons, you may feel differently. But I could be wrong, women over there may not understand the value of not being raped. Every free country has religious fanaticism, most free countries have had prejudice towards women (how long before women could vote in the US?) Our culture grew because of freedom. Iraq now has that chance but if we pull out, we may be handing the country back to the same people that were in power and would go back to oppressing the people again. Now they have a choice and a vote, the hope is they don't vote people in that take them down the same oppressive path.Rich,
Quite the jump there... we go from "is Iraq ready in XXX's post" to "getting raped", in yours. Man, sad to say it, but women (and occasionally men) get raped in the good ol USA too. The odds of having one of S's sons show up at the door and haul the better half down to the dungeon were pretty slim. Not to say that it didn't happen, but I feel that your example was a bit of a "scare" tactic and a stretch.

Now, how come I don't hear you bringing this issue up about eastern European countries (rape, oppression, etc)?

[Kanabiis]

Rich,
Quite the jump there... we go from "is Iraq ready in XXX's post" to "getting raped", in yours. Man, sad to say it, but women (and occasionally men) get raped in the good ol USA too. The odds of having one of S's sons show up at the door and haul the better half down to the dungeon were pretty slim. Not to say that it didn't happen, but I feel that your example was a bit of a "scare" tactic and a stretch.

Now, how come I don't hear you bringing this issue up about eastern European countries (rape, oppression, etc)?

No No No, you have it all wrong Pilot, you have been blinded by the liberal media.... There are no atrocities occurring in the rest of the world, the liberal media has been making up lies about Darfur and Sudan, no ethnic cleansing is occurring there.

These photos are obviously photoshoped:

http://balochvoice.com/Pictures/Army_Operation/Children_killed_19.12.05/Four_Children_of_one_Family_Killed_004-19-12-05.jpg

http://nuhairi.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/darfur_child_starving.JPG http://www.americaabroadmedia.org/media/AAM%2520Images/Darfur-Program---Main-Photo.gif http://www.darfurcentre.ch/photodarfur/Internally_Displaced_Persons_in_Darfur.jpg

Infact, even the Bush administration supports the government of Darfur, if there is any proof that the liberal media is full of shit and that the Darfur government is in the right its the fact that Bush met witht the president of Darfur and said things are going smashingly well there:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Minni_Minnawi_and_George_W_Bush_%28cropped%29.jpg/250px-Minni_Minnawi_and_George_W_Bush_%28cropped%29.jpg

It is we who have been brainwashed.... after reading Ritchies posts I saw the light.

[R1chie]

Rich,
Quite the jump there... we go from "is Iraq ready in XXX's post" to "getting raped", in yours. Man, sad to say it, but women (and occasionally men) get raped in the good ol USA too. The odds of having one of S's sons show up at the door and haul the better half down to the dungeon were pretty slim. Not to say that it didn't happen, but I feel that your example was a bit of a "scare" tactic and a stretch.

Now, how come I don't hear you bringing this issue up about eastern European countries (rape, oppression, etc)?

Last time I checked, Bush was not sending out gov officials to round up women for him and his relatives to have sex with. I haven't seen him rounding up segments of the population, religious or otherwise and gassing them.

It was documented.

We are not at war with Europe last time I checked.

[R1chie]

Ok let’s just get the reason for the war in Iraq straight here.

In Bush’s State of the Union Address in 2003 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html), there was nothing about bringing democracy to anyone and there was nothing about starting a second front with Al Qudia so that they would not strike here.

His reason was that Sadam had Weapon of Mass Destruction that he could (or sell to other) use on the US. He did this by implying the Sadam had some part in September 11th. Linking him t to those terrorists.

The fact is he was wrong in those assumptions. But that is no longer the issue anymore. We have to clean this mess up.

We are responsible, we have to pay to fix it, we have to hold those accountable so they can not do it again.

In my opinion, Congress should get off its butt (because that is why we put them into office) and impeach the Bush Administration, (the whole thing).

Then replace the executive branch with people that will put pressure on the Iraq government to take charge of their own country, and then bring our people home.

We still have a war to fight, we still need to find those that caused 9-11 and make them accountable.
http://www.pifflemag.co.uk/images/newsimages/osama.jpg
IT HAS BEEN 6 YEARS… WHY IS THIS MAN STILL ALIVE?

I do think Bush made a mistake by putting all his eggs in one basked. Anyone going to war counts the costs. How will this help the people, how will this hurt them, how will it help/hurt our people. What is in it for us. These were all calculated but Bush only stated the violation of UN resolutions. It was not that Saddam had WMD's, it is we and the UN THOUGHT he had them. He had to comply to inspections to clear himself. He chose not to and we went to war over that. Bush should have also include the humanitarian reasons as well but he did not and he is paying for it.

The war may have been a side affect of Osama, we were hit and America felt we needed to start working on the middle east to stop terrorists from coming here but the UN resolution violations were the reason for going to Iraq.

[clustermagnet]

So you suggest that ignoring the International Community, and going in like a idiot hill billy will earn credit in the face of your country?

[Kanabiis]

Last time I checked, Bush was not sending out gov officials to round up women for him and his relatives to have sex with. I haven't seen him rounding up segments of the population, religious or otherwise and gassing them.

It was documented.

We are not at war with Europe last time I checked.

Ritchie, you keep talking about Saddams rape rooms like he was the only dictator to have rape rooms....

What about the rape rooms run by Uzbekistan President Islom Karimov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islom_Karimov)?

Not only are they still active, we are supporting Uzbekistan, when we launched operation Iraqi Freedom, the Bush Administration greased Karimov's palms with 79 Million dollars to allow American planes to fly in his air space.

There is quite a bit of documentation linking Karimov to numerous atrocities, boiling people alive (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.informationclearinghouse.info %2Farticle3943.htm&ei=w_ixRsb4PIOOigGkq4E-&usg=AFQjCNFbKFjF0g9qAP6FBAEjgBYlrW2EiA&sig2=Hc28l6amkSg_3Ytowo0tOA), rape rooms (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftrefry.net%2Fblogs%2Fmichael%2Far chive%2F2006%2F01%2F03%2F431.aspx&ei=k_ixRvqzKaaSiwG3o8Q3&usg=AFQjCNGJQ1k74umso4sTreEn5JKafE-fiQ&sig2=RQoYp7i_XsAnF8nT8900eg), torture of political enemies.

So where is your outrage over Islom Karimov?

[R1chie]

No No No , you have it all wrong Pilot, you have been blinded by the liberal media.... There are no atrocities occurring in the rest of the world, the liberal media has been making up lies about Darfur and Sudan, no ethnic cleansing is occurring there.
.

No doubt the are others. China for instance kills off the women before and after they are born because they want more men in their country, women children are banned or limited, yet even Hillary attended a summit for human rights in China and made no mention of fetalcide/infantcide of women in that country. We buy lots of goods cheap from them every time you walk into walmart, in a way we as consumers contribute to this problem. It is overlooked because they are an important resource to us, just as oil and Iraq is. In China there are no child labor laws and slave labor children probably helped make the jeans you are wearing right now.

Politics is a nasty business and if anyone think we as a country are inconcent of turning a blind eye and encouraging the atrocities in other counties, are sadly mistaken, no matter democrat or republican. IMHO.

[R1chie]

So you suggest that ignoring the International Community, ?

Yes, the UN is corrupt and serves no purpose other than its own. It is a puppet for those in power at the time. We should protect our own interests and those of our alias.

[Snowman]

Politics is a nasty business and if anyone think we as a country are inconcent of turning a blind eye and encouraging the atrocities in other counties, are sadly mistaken, no matter democrat or republican. IMHO.
Do I hear a hint of a Moderate side there friend?

[R1chie]

Ritchie, you keep talking about Saddams rape rooms like he was the only dictator to have rape rooms....

What about the rape rooms run by Uzbekistan President Islom Karimov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islom_Karimov)?

Not only are they still active, we are supporting Uzbekistan, when we launched operation Iraqi Freedom, the Bush Administration greased Karimov's palms with 79 Million dollars to allow American planes to fly in his air space.

There is quite a bit of documentation linking Karimov to numerous atrocities, boiling people alive (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.informationclearinghouse.info %2Farticle3943.htm&ei=w_ixRsb4PIOOigGkq4E-&usg=AFQjCNFbKFjF0g9qAP6FBAEjgBYlrW2EiA&sig2=Hc28l6amkSg_3Ytowo0tOA), rape rooms (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftrefry.net%2Fblogs%2Fmichael%2Far chive%2F2006%2F01%2F03%2F431.aspx&ei=k_ixRvqzKaaSiwG3o8Q3&usg=AFQjCNGJQ1k74umso4sTreEn5JKafE-fiQ&sig2=RQoYp7i_XsAnF8nT8900eg), torture of political enemies.

So where is your outrage over Islom Karimov?

Similar outrage, but they did not violate UN resolutions. This may be why Bush did not include some of the other issues because people would bring up other countries that had similar issues and we were not invading them.

[R1chie]

Do I hear a hint of a Moderate side there friend?

I do not think the republican party is perfect or even close, but the ideas behind the party, against redistribution of wealth, freedom of religion, capitalism, freedom using strong military, conservatism align themselves with the way I think. The democats are more socialist/communist, religion of secular humanism, no standards of morality which goes against my way of thinking. They both still have to play dirty politics.

[Kanabiis]

Similar outrage, but they did not violate UN resolutions. This may be why Bush did not include some of the other issues because people would bring up other countries that had similar issues and we were not invading them.

Oh, so its all about UN resolutions then right? Well if thats the case, why haven't we bombed Israel yet? They have violated every UN resolution regarding the Palestinian refugees over the past 20 years or so (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2417). Including numerous 'last chance' resolutions....

Yes, the UN is corrupt and serves no purpose other than its own. It is a puppet for those in power at the time. We should protect our own interests and those of our alias.

Oh wait, in one breath you say that we were upholding the UN, and in the next breath you say that the UN is corrupt and serves no purpose... then why exactly are we upholding the resolution violations?

Flip flop, flip flop, flip flop....

[clustermagnet]

R1chie supports UN when its benefiting him, he is not supporting the UN when its against his beliefs.

stick with the gut

[xxuxx]

How can the USA win? if thats the right word, or how can the USA re-structure Iraq and make it ready for democracy? when half the country (the Suni's) will fight to their death and blow themselves up and the other half of the country (the shiites) will do the same? Do you split the country into 2 separate entities like what happened to Hungary? Maybe that's the solution!

[R1chie]

Oh, so its all about UN resolutions then right? Well if thats the case, why haven't we bombed Israel yet? They have violated every UN resolution regarding the Palestinian refugees over the past 20 years or so (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2417). Including numerous 'last chance' resolutions....

Yep, all part of politics. They are our friends, and like China, we overlook things, which was part of my previous post.

Oh wait, in one breath you say that we were upholding the UN, and in the next breath you say that the UN is corrupt and serves no purpose... then why exactly are we upholding the resolution violations?

Flip flop, flip flop, flip flop....

Yep part of politics. Dems and Republicans do it.

[R1chie]

How can the USA win? if thats the right word, or how can the USA re-structure Iraq and make it ready for democracy? when half the country (the Suni's) will fight to their death and blow themselves up and the other half of the country (the shiites) will do the same? Do you split the country into 2 separate entities like what happened to Hungary? Maybe that's the solution!

How did the US do it. Through civil war. People who think that Iraq will become the US overnight have unrealistic expectations, it took us hundreds of years and we still have problems.

It "wins" by removing a dictator and having elected officials which will hopefully represent all of the country and serve the best interests of everyone involved. Then we have an friend who will sell us oil so we can continue to support our economy and military. Without it we will not enjoy the prosperity we have now. It is a gamble for Bush to spend so much money on the military, but hopefully the outcome will serve the interests of Iraq and the US.

[R1chie]

R1chie supports UN when its benefiting him, he is not supporting the UN when its against his beliefs.

stick with the gut

Yep, I think the US has used the UN to serve its best interests just as every country involved has. I have to get back to work. Sorry I will have to drop out for now.

[Kanabiis]

Yep part of politics. Dems and Republicans do it.

So you concede then, that the invasion of Iraq was not a humanitarian effort, nor a hunt for WMD, but a personal vendetta, and political move on the part of George Bush and his administration, in light of the overwhelming evidence to the later right?

[R1chie]

So you concede then, that the invasion of Iraq was not a humanitarian effort, nor a hunt for WMD, but a personal vendetta, and political move on the part of George Bush and his administration, in light of the overwhelming evidence to the later right?

Nope, I do not concede. I simply state that going to war involve a number of considerations. WMD and the ability to check if they had them was one. Others included humanitarian reasons, personal vendetta may have helped push it, the interests of our country (middle east stability, military presence, oil also were thrown into the mix. They all add up to a better Iraq which is why I feel we should not pull out (against popular belief.)

[Kanabiis]

Yep, I think the US has used the UN to serve its best interests just as every country involved has. I have to get back to work. Sorry I will have to drop out for now.

Ran out of talking points did you? That happens a lot to partisans, when faced with overwhelming facts and evidence to the contrary of their talking points.

Don't worry though Ritchie, I used to be JUST LIKE YOU... I used to defend this current administration no matter what, I rallied for George Bush in 2000, I pressured all of my friends and family to vote for him, I supported his war effort after 9/11.

I defended him when the evidence started to come out about the lack of WMD programs in Iraq. I even used to blame the liberal media, just like you.

[clustermagnet]

How did the US do it. Through civil war. People who think that Iraq will become the US overnight have unrealistic expectations, it took us hundreds of years and we still have problems.

It "wins" by removing a dictator and having elected officials which will hopefully represent all of the country and serve the best interests of everyone involved. Then we have an friend who will sell us oil so we can continue to support our economy and military. Without it we will not enjoy the prosperity we have now. It is a gamble for Bush to spend so much money on the military, but hopefully the outcome will serve the interests of Iraq and the US.

Right, so you support the troops to stay during that civil war you mention?

[Bassil Duwaik]

....kinda off beat but damn pilot you sure know how to shake up a hornets nest lol. I was going to say something but I think I've already said it...good thread lol

[Kanabiis]

Nope, I do not concede. I simply state that going to war involve a number of considerations. WMD and the ability to check if they had them was one. Others included humanitarian reasons, personal vendetta may have helped push it, the interests of our country (middle east stability, military presence, oil also were thrown into the mix. They all add up to a better Iraq which is why I feel we should not pull out (against popular belief.)

And I am still waiting on that check from Publishers Clearing house....

I'm sure Iraq will stabilize right about the time Ed Mcmahon knocks on my door.....

Funny thing is, those who were against the war in the first place were told that they were crazy, lunatics etc. etc.

It seems their predictions were right on the money.....

How many of the Bush administrations claims have been proven true?
Showered with flowers? Nope
Greeted as liberators? Nope
Quick rebuild of infrastructure? Nope
Active WMD programs? Nope
Ratified Iraqi constitution? Nope Infact, Bush stated in the State of the Union address in 2003 that an Iraqi constitution had been created.. that was a lie.
Uniform local election policies? Nope Infact, the latest Iraq Report card suggested that 60% of the local election poll locations were not secured at all, and the claim of 80% participation in the last Iraqi elections was a flawed assessment and it was much closer to 17%. Hows that for backslide.
Insurgency in its death throes? Nope, since Cheney made that comment, American casualties are up 73%.
Sharing Oil revenue? Nope

The Bush administrations own report card indicates failure in every single aspect of the Iraqi war...

AND we just found out last week that the defense department cannot account for almost 200,000 weapons used to train Iraqi police and military. So rather then disarm the insurgents, it appears we have armed them...

Your doing a heck of a job Bushie..... :slappers:

[D-Man]

And I am still waiting on that check from Publishers Clearing house....

I'm sure Iraq will stabilize right about the time Ed Mcmahon knocks on my door.....

Funny thing is, those who were against the war in the first place were told that they were crazy, lunatics etc. etc.

It seems their predictions were right on the money.....

How many of the Bush administrations claims have been proven true?
Showered with flowers? Nope
Greeted as liberators? Nope
Quick rebuild of infrastructure? Nope
Active WMD programs? Nope
Ratified Iraqi constitution? Nope Infact, Bush stated in the State of the Union address in 2003 that an Iraqi constitution had been created.. that was a lie.
Uniform local election policies? Nope Infact, the latest Iraq Report card suggested that 60% of the local election poll locations were not secured at all, and the claim of 80% participation in the last Iraqi elections was a flawed assessment and it was much closer to 17%. Hows that for backslide.
Insurgency in its death throes? Nope, since Cheney made that comment, American casualties are up 73%.
Sharing Oil revenue? Nope

The Bush administrations own report card indicates failure in every single aspect of the Iraqi war...

AND we just found out last week that the defense department cannot account for almost 200,000 weapons used to train Iraqi police and military. So rather then disarm the insurgents, it appears we have armed them...

Your doing a heck of a job Bushie..... :slappers:

You sure have found a lot of negative to say about the war. You've done alot of searching for all this negativity. Have you bothered to search for some positive aspects in Iraq.
I've found one that you pointed out yourself. You said local election polls were not secure but didn't think, of the fact that there was local elections at all.
This is a typical problem of you liberals.

[R1chie]

Right, so you support the troops to stay during that civil war you mention?

Glad I don't have to make that decision. But I support the troops no matter what.

[R1chie]

And I am still waiting on that check from Publishers Clearing house....

I'm sure Iraq will stabilize right about the time Ed Mcmahon knocks on my door.....

Funny thing is, those who were against the war in the first place were told that they were crazy, lunatics etc. etc.

It seems their predictions were right on the money.....

How many of the Bush administrations claims have been proven true?
Showered with flowers? Nope
Greeted as liberators? Nope
Quick rebuild of infrastructure? Nope
Active WMD programs? Nope
Ratified Iraqi constitution? Nope Infact, Bush stated in the State of the Union address in 2003 that an Iraqi constitution had been created.. that was a lie.
Uniform local election policies? Nope Infact, the latest Iraq Report card suggested that 60% of the local election poll locations were not secured at all, and the claim of 80% participation in the last Iraqi elections was a flawed assessment and it was much closer to 17%. Hows that for backslide.
Insurgency in its death throes? Nope, since Cheney made that comment, American casualties are up 73%.
Sharing Oil revenue? Nope

The Bush administrations own report card indicates failure in every single aspect of the Iraqi war...

AND we just found out last week that the defense department cannot account for almost 200,000 weapons used to train Iraqi police and military. So rather then disarm the insurgents, it appears we have armed them...

Your doing a heck of a job Bushie..... :slappers:

I think we don't know the outcome yet, so hard to make a decision as to did Bush serve our countries best interests or not. You may think it is a failier but I see that we removed Saddam quickly, he was brought to justice, Iraq had a democratic vote, the people are now free, we have had minimal loss of life for our military (compared the number of lives lost during the peace time of Clinton and other wars), Kuwait will not be attacked by Iraq again, suicide bombers are there instead of here. All in all IMHO it has been very successful. You can debate all the downsides but until we see the outcome years down the road we will not know if the war helped or hurt Iraq and the US.

We do know one thing though, history has show when America loses resolve and pulls out, we fail.

[R1chie]

You sure have found a lot of negative to say about the war. You've done alot of searching for all this negativity. Have you bothered to search for some positive aspects in Iraq.
I've found one that you pointed out yourself. You said local election polls were not secure but didn't think, of the fact that there was local elections at all.
This is a typical problem of you liberals.

They are all trying to Bush bash and they want this to fail because then they get the dems into office to push their agenda, the fall of America to socialism/communism.

[Kanabiis]

They are all trying to Bush bash and they want this to fail because then they get the dems into office to push their agenda, the fall of America to socialism/communism.

Are you fucking kidding me, dood, you are the king of hyperbole...

Because we pull out of Iraq the USA will become communists

your kinda stretching it a bit Ritchie....

next thing your gonna tell us that if we dont win in Iraq Bin Laden will be president right?

And D-man... did you not see my posts regarding my political affiliation?

Im one of the 67% of Republicans who thinks that Bush is doing a bad job...
REPUBLICAN

My current supported candidate is Ron Paul, REPUBLICAN out of Texas

So give that shit up already....

Iraq had elections under Saddam too you know.... but again, lets not let facts cloud the issue....

As far as looking for the positive things.... If a flower grows out of a pile of shit, its still growing in a pile of shit right?

[Kanabiis]

You sure have found a lot of negative to say about the war. You've done alot of searching for all this negativity. Have you bothered to search for some positive aspects in Iraq.
I've found one that you pointed out yourself. You said local election polls were not secure but didn't think, of the fact that there was local elections at all.
This is a typical problem of you liberals.

Hey, that is coming from a report card issued by the BUSH ADMINISTRATION (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.time.com%2Ftime%2Fnation%2Far ticle%2F0%2C8599%2C1643349%2C00.html&ei=vQmyRsTNEJC8iAHs4JQw&usg=AFQjCNH2xkPJQgU13L5G8buP7Y-0ftgJLg&sig2=Py2foHB9b38O7ZZHvyBIag) not some liberal organization, but your own fucking hero GEORGE BUSH...

I guess the White House has some liberal agenda right? those fucking communists in the White House, how dare they undermine the war effort by releasing such a damaging report...

They must want the terrorists to win....

[R1chie]

Are you fucking kidding me, dood, you are the king of hyperbole...

Because we pull out of Iraq the USA will become communists

your kinda stretching it a bit Ritchie....

?

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that. Democrats bash Bush on any front not just Iraq.

[D-Man]

Are you fucking kidding me, dood, you are the king of hyperbole...

Because we pull out of Iraq the USA will become communists

your kinda stretching it a bit Ritchie....

next thing your gonna tell us that if we dont win in Iraq Bin Laden will be president right?

And D-man... did you not see my posts regarding my political affiliation?

Im one of the 67% of Republicans who thinks that Bush is doing a bad job...
REPUBLICAN

My current supported candidate is Ron Paul, REPUBLICAN out of Texas

So give that shit up already....

Iraq had elections under Saddam too you know.... but again, lets not let facts cloud the issue....

As far as looking for the positive things.... If a flower grows out of a pile of shit, its still growing in a pile of shit right?

Still amazed at how you can only find great things to say about Sadaam and only shit talk our President. I'll bet you shed a tear when Sadaam was hanged.

[clustermagnet]

Glad I don't have to make that decision. But I support the troops no matter what.

Everyone supports their friends across the seas. Its blind to support the people who send them there? Am I wrong?

[clustermagnet]

if everyone is jumping off a cliff on sharp rocks... arent you going to at least stop and think? arent you going to try to grab someone else and prevent them from jumping?

Thats how I justify my efforts...

[R1chie]

Everyone supports their friends across the seas. Its blind to support the people who send them there? Am I wrong?

Not when you see clearly that people are free and we have a new friend.

[clustermagnet]

Still amazed at how you can only find great things to say about Sadaam and only shit talk our President. I'll bet you shed a tear when Sadaam was hanged.

I suggest you go back and read whats been said, and not focus on single quips. This conversation has been ongoing for some pages now.

[clustermagnet]

Not when you see clearly that people are free and we have a new friend.

you make no sense, as usual

[D-Man]

Hey, that is coming from a report card issued by the BUSH ADMINISTRATION (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.time.com%2Ftime%2Fnation%2Far ticle%2F0%2C8599%2C1643349%2C00.html&ei=vQmyRsTNEJC8iAHs4JQw&usg=AFQjCNH2xkPJQgU13L5G8buP7Y-0ftgJLg&sig2=Py2foHB9b38O7ZZHvyBIag) not some liberal organization, but your own fucking hero GEORGE BUSH...

I guess the White House has some liberal agenda right? those fucking communists in the White House, how dare they undermine the war effort by releasing such a damaging report...

They must want the terrorists to win....

George Bush is not my hero. You are! I want to follow you and your sway to the popular majority.

[Kanabiis]

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that. Democrats bash Bush on any front not just Iraq.

Well, point to a single thing that BUSH has control of, thats going well...

Since I said that Bush has control of, you cant say economy and you cant say weather.....

The president has pretty much 2 jobs, run the military, and take care of foreign affairs...

Lets see, we are in a war in 2 countries, and most of the world hates us...

Well and there was that leaking of a CIA agents name,

and Abu Garib/Gitmo scandals

and that damn firing of DOJ DAs over political strife,

and the Halliburton no bid scandal

and the energy task force scandal

and there is that matter of mine, and your tax money disappearing, in the tune of 61 Million dollars, later found in KBR/Halliburtons pocket, which just happens to be the company that Dick Cheney was CEO of before he got a promotion to Vice President of the US

and then we found 700 Million dollars that was supposed to be used in Afghanistan in Iraq... wonder how that happened

and then Donald Keyser, appointed to the State department by GW Bush was arrested by the FBI in Taiwan selling state secret documents to Taiwanese intelligence

and there is the issue of illegal wiretapping of US citizens, many with no ties to terrorism in the least

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head...

Plus, I have been meaning to ask, since you brought it up, how many American soldiers died under the Clinton Administration...you said something about that earlier... I meant to ask you about it... because I dont seem to remember more then 3500 soldiers dying during the Clinton administration (which I will point out, I am no fan of, but I'm not going to let lies stand)

Maybe there was a few wars during the Clinton administration I didnt hear about, I mean I did sleep sometimes, could have been one of those 3 hour wars or something...

[Kanabiis]

See you Bush Administration fans keep talking about morality...

But when something bad happens you say, but Clinton did blah blah...

I'm wondering, If your taking the moral high ground, yet every time you get caught doing wrong you point to another criminal to justify your actions, doesnt that make you no better then the other criminal?

I'm fucking tired of hearing about how everything is Clinton's fault... the guy has not been president for 7 fucking years now.. when does George Bush become accountable for anything at the White House?

And when the next Republican President is elected in 2008, will you find it acceptable to blame Bush for the problems?

[clustermagnet]

damn, owned.

and thats like probably 10 percent of the skeletons they got caught with...

ever think that?

What did Clinton do wrong? He got his dong licked, and traveled a bunch... booohoooo yep, i would live too... got a pissed off wife at home... you'd lie as well

Clinton actually had respect for people... he couldnt find strength in himself to say " i dont recall, or i dont understand "

[clustermagnet]

R1chie, do you need glasses? I will happily pay for your prescription/contacts so you can at least open your eyes on your sig.

[pilot]

:oops:....kinda off beat but damn pilot you sure know how to shake up a hornets nest lol. I was going to say something but I think I've already said it...good thread lol

[636Chick]

bash Bush


Hey leave my name out of this!!!!!!!!

Watch how you throw around the BASH!!!!!

You have been warned!!!!!


Sorry trying to lighten it up

Contiune with your debate!!!!!!!

[clustermagnet]

Hey leave my name out of this!!!!!!!!

Watch how you throw around the BASH!!!!!

You have been warned!!!!!


Sorry trying to lighten it up

Contiune with your debate!!!!!!!


thanks you ruined the debate :scream1: :)

[pilot]

They are all trying to Bush bash and they want this to fail because then they get the dems into office to push their agenda, the fall of America to socialism/communism.I'm a communist! :shocked:In fact there's nothing I'd like better than to live in a commune with 20 Bee-U-tee-full ladies (all specialized in their own way and all of 'em bikers), Hey, even a Kibutz (sp) would suit me just fine. ( Or is that called a Hareem? )

Call me crazy, but what sane man (or a lot of women for that matter) could pass this up?

http://www.partiesbystacey.com/images/BellyDancers.jpg

Just trying to lighten the moment folks. ooo000oooo yahhhh....:hump: (those of you that "know" me, know I ain't BS'n.)

[R1chie]

See you Bush Administration fans keep talking about morality...

But when something bad happens you say, but Clinton did blah blah...

I'm wondering, If your taking the moral high ground, yet every time you get caught doing wrong you point to another criminal to justify your actions, doesnt that make you no better then the other criminal?

I'm fucking tired of hearing about how everything is Clinton's fault... the guy has not been president for 7 fucking years now.. when does George Bush become accountable for anything at the White House?

And when the next Republican President is elected in 2008, will you find it acceptable to blame Bush for the problems?

I did not say it was clintons fault, I stated we have lost as many people in war time than in peace yet the liberal media machine and the democrats talk about all the lives lost and how it is Bush's fault, I would compare it to the mortality of drunk drivers if they could they would blame Bush for that.

[R1chie]

R1chie, do you need glasses? I will happily pay for your prescription/contacts so you can at least open your eyes on your sig.

I was looking into the sun when I took the picture. Nice try at a subtle personal attack, I post my picture because I don't hide behind the keyboard, I also show up to bike nights because what I state I firmly believe is right. If I am wrong, I admit it.

[R1chie]

:oops:

It is a good thread until people start personal attacks. But hey, people have made up their minds so it is really pointless.

[R1chie]

Hey leave my name out of this!!!!!!!!

Watch how you throw around the BASH!!!!!

You have been warned!!!!!


Sorry trying to lighten it up

Contiune with your debate!!!!!!!

Like your sig :)

[clustermagnet]

It is a good thread until people start personal attacks. But hey, people have made up their minds so it is really pointless.

you must admin that you ag things on, then complain you get punked...

like an annoying kid in the play ground, that is first to cause trouble, first to run to parents for cover... like a weasel... disgusting

[Gixxerk2]

you must admin that you ag things on, then complain you get punked...

like an annoying kid in the play ground, that is first to cause trouble, first to run to parents for cover... like a weasel... disgusting

LOL, pot this is kettle.

[Snowman]

I take offence to that statement you made about R1chie. You maybe right about the punked part, but don’t drag innocent weasels into this.

[636Chick]

Like your sig :)

Thank you those who know us will appreciate the humor of that coversation under the picture and the picture as well!!

Carry on with the town meeting!!!!

[mclarke]

Cluster, last I remember you have been proven wrong in multiple threads because you spew sh*t and don't have anything to back it up. Why don't you leave and stay in NY? go find someone else to bother

[clustermagnet]

I take offence to that statement you made about R1chie. You maybe right about the punked part, but don’t drag innocent weasels into this.

mean not to hurt little creatures

[clustermagnet]

I suggest you go back and read whats been said, and not focus on single quips. This conversation has been ongoing for some pages now.

mclarke, same goes to you

[pilot]

side note: I've always thought that R1ch had one of the best "personalized" sigs. Excellent combination of colors, angles and compositions. Did I mention creative?

Nothing to see here. Move along!

[D-Man]

I just read on MSN news that Socialist President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has praised Sean Penn for his views on American policies in Iraq.
Kanabiis and clustermagnet, do you see who you are aligning with?