Get out of Iraq or stay in?

[pilot]

Simple poll on a complex issue (K.I.S.S.)

There are a gazillion different possibilities out there. But, given these two options, which would you choose?

[*GSXR~SNAIL*]

Simple poll on a complex issue (K.I.S.S.)

There are a gazillion different possibilities out there. But, given these two options, which would you choose?

Here we go...

http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/images/smilies/smiles2/stirthepot.gif

[pilot]

Here we go...

http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/images/smilies/smiles2/stirthepot.gifLOL. Everybody should probably just do some sit-ups and go to bed, ha.

[PharmerKyle]

Too simple of a poll. Needs a "meh" option.

[Nick_Ninja]

10 - 4

[Brizz]

Ha way too simple..But heres another side of the coin. If we thake teh muslum magnet away from Iraq. And bring it home then what? Id rather fight around the world then in my backyard.

[#1Townie]

Ha way too simple..But heres another side of the coin. If we thake teh muslum magnet away from Iraq. And bring it home then what? Id rather fight around the world then in my backyard.
+1

[R1chie]

Ha way too simple..But heres another side of the coin. If we thake teh muslum magnet away from Iraq. And bring it home then what? Id rather fight around the world then in my backyard.

But what about the troops who volunteered to go into the military and signed up for this war. They are dying. We need to bring them home so they can sit here and we pay them money to do nothing. Our poor troops are dying over there, we need to bring them home so they are safe and sound. We should also dismantal our military like Clinton did because we don't really need it. We shouldn't be messing around in world affairs, we do not need to protect our alias or make sure the world is safe. We need to give into terrorists and religious leaders that want to kill us and others who do not believe the way they do. We can give into terrorist and give them what they really want, democrats voted into office. Even Osama has pleaded and prayed for this to happen so our military will away. If we do what they ask, everyone knows that terrorist will then be our friends and we will be one happy family all believing in one muslim god. (Maybe our women would learn to walk 3 steps behind us and we would be able to treat them like dirt again.) It is just not worth our men dying for the cause of freedom. BRING THEM HOME! http://www.motox.org/forum/stirthepot.gif

[Kristian]

"Stay until the country is able to handle things on their own"

Unfortunatley, they have no incentive as long as we are there!

[mushin_man39]

Get of? Immedialely?

[pilot]

Hmmmm. 85 have viewed this post. 11 have voted. Considering that not everyone is a member that is still a low number. Sure, there could be more options (you fill in the option), but a trend is showing up here. The same trend that was occurring in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, and that is what we see on the news-- "We (in general), are tired of talking about this and don't want to bring it up anymore."

As motorcyclists, wouldn't it be good if we did something like created a group specifically to help guide newbie riding troops into safe and happy riding? Or something like that? Yes, I know this is Barney stuff.

[Bassil Duwaik]

Ha way too simple..But heres another side of the coin. If we thake teh muslum magnet away from Iraq. And bring it home then what? Id rather fight around the world then in my backyard.

The Muslims in Iraq aren't the underlining cause or problem for that matter although it keeps being drawn up as an issue. More then forty percent of Iraqis make less then a dollar a day...I think I would be pissed if I made that much and I come home to eat the bread I got with my hard earned dollar only to see that someone has broke into my house and stole one of my shoes...so now there isn't any security either...hmmm I wonder who it was that keeps promotion freedom and security? Could be the same guy who lied about WMD. When it comes to fanatics I think it's a good idea to try and address the root cause of a problem

Iraq was far better off with Saddam then without him. More people have died indirectly due to bush in iraq then saddam has every killed. Moreover, it was US who gave saddam all the chemical weapons he used to have. Which is also worth noting that there weren't any terrorist in Iraq under saddam. Besides who gives a rats ass about saddam...it's osama I want!!!! Bush is a moron!!

And I'm a Muslim so I don't see what you mean about muslim magnet.

Besides, it's dangerous to apply the ideas or actions of a few towards over a billion other people. Timmithy Micvay was an Irish catholic and his actions I don't think speak for every Irish catholic...do they?

[Brizz]

Well aside from ppl who are RETARDED...Here ya go from a veteran:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/Briz781/IMAG0162-1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/Briz781/IMAG0234.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/Briz781/IMAG0229.jpg

[pilot]

Brizz,
Damn, I miss those days. What type of transport were you flying in? 130, 141?

[Mother Goose]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/Briz781/IMAG0229.jpg
Photochop!! :lol: j/k Brizzle.

[D-Man]

The Muslims in Iraq aren't the underlining cause or problem for that matter although it keeps being drawn up as an issue. More then forty percent of Iraqis make less then a dollar a day...I think I would be pissed if I made that much and I come home to eat the bread I got with my hard earned dollar only to see that someone has broke into my house and stole one of my shoes...so now there isn't any security either...hmmm I wonder who it was that keeps promotion freedom and security? Could be the same guy who lied about WMD. When it comes to fanatics I think it's a good idea to try and address the root cause of a problem

Iraq was far better off with Saddam then without him. More people have died indirectly due to bush in iraq then saddam has every killed. Moreover, it was US who gave saddam all the chemical weapons he used to have. Which is also worth noting that there weren't any terrorist in Iraq under saddam. Besides who gives a rats ass about saddam...it's osama I want!!!! Bush is a moron!!

And I'm a Muslim so I don't see what you mean about muslim magnet.

Besides, it's dangerous to apply the ideas or actions of a few towards over a billion other people. Timmithy Micvay was an Irish catholic and his actions I don't think speak for every Irish catholic...do they?

Iraq was far better off if you were one of Saddams cronies, You wouldn't say that if you were a Kurd or a Shiite. I would rather have a fighting chance at freedom than a life under a dictatorship. I'll bet you would feel the same if you were under the rule of a madman like Sadaam. You would wake up and wonder if you and your family would be dragged out of your house and executed because you spoke your mind against his regime.

[Kanabiis]

Iraq was far better off if you were one of Saddams cronies, You wouldn't say that if you were a Kurd or a Shiite.

You mean those Kurds that are being shelled by the Turks right now (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9501434)? And the US Government is doing nothing to stop it, for fear of angering Turkey and starting yet another conflict in the region...

Yea, I'm betting those Kurds are really happy right now, nothing brightens your day more then dodging artillery fire from the neighboring country, and being told by the country that 'liberated' you that they would love to help but they dont want to anger an ally.

Gotta hand it to the Bushies though, they sure know how to fuck over the Kurds... in Gulf Storm we encouraged them to rise up against Saddam, yet conveniently forgot to give them any assistance, so for their troubles they got gassed. Then Bush Jr. liberates Iraq, yet forgets all about the Kurds again....

But hey, its really easy to sit here in America on your computer and tell everyone how great the shit is in Iraq right now. How about YOU go live there :jerkoff:

[Kanabiis]

Funny thing too D-Man, its obvious you really dont know what your talking about, you have the sects all wrong... right now the Shiites are in control... its the SUNNIS that are being bombed, because you know Saddam was a SUNNI and all....

But hey, again, lets not let facts get in the way here... its easier to just pull shit out of your ass to back up your arguments.....

I know I know, you dont WANT to read that propaganda in the liberal media... its far easier to just not read anything at all, hell it works for George Bush (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/143851_thomas15.html), and hes the president right...I mean if you dont read the news, then everything coming out of Iraq right now is roses.. and thats alot better then bodybags right?

[Kristian]

So what's the solution?

[Kanabiis]

So what's the solution?

Who the fuck knows anymore....

I do know one thing, the tribal fighting is mostly due to the fact that the US is pushing Iraq to have one central federalized government, and the 28 major tribes in Iraq dont like that idea very much. Which is why they are having problems in their government right now.

One solution to that problem would be to allow each of the tribes to have their own 'state' if you will. The borders outlining the tribes are very well established right now anyway, so there would be minimal dispute as to the borders.

But at this point, that solution is not even on the table, because it doesnt fit in with George Bush's idea of a democracy in Iraq..... I mean if you cant force a democracy on a country at gunpoint what is the point of giving them democracy at all you know. Letting them become a republic, well thats anti federal democracy, a republic is only good for the US I guess... but come to think of it, the Republicans dont like the idea of our republic either, which is why they keep pushing for more Federal control... hmmmmmm

[pilot]

I use to live in Turkey (same time the Marines were killed-1983) and I can say that Turkey is a Democratic country compiled mostly of Muslims. Over there, you could have an opinion. And then, you got butt slapped in the face.

[pilot]

And let's not forget how sexy we have made killing:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/246/455435678_ab38ec8108.jpg

[Brian428]

I'd love to see all the troops come home, maybe in a perfect world which it definitely aint. The problem is when you start withdrawing troops, there's less of us to back eachother up. I admit I don't know enough about the situation to make a real arguement, I'll leave that to people who have been or are currently over there. I'd like to see more locals trained to fight for their country until they can replace us and the real heroes of this country can get back to their families. My .02

[pilot]

And here are a few stark images to remind us of what time it is:

http://pdn.philly.com/2005/05/13/mac/08.jpg

http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/WTC7Hit1.jpg

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/0/06/Hostage_kim.jpg

http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/uploads/iraq2_0.jpg

[D-Man]

Funny thing too D-Man, its obvious you really dont know what your talking about, you have the sects all wrong... right now the Shiites are in control... its the SUNNIS that are being bombed, because you know Saddam was a SUNNI and all....

But hey, again, lets not let facts get in the way here... its easier to just pull shit out of your ass to back up your arguments.....

I know I know, you dont WANT to read that propaganda in the liberal media... its far easier to just not read anything at all, hell it works for George Bush (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/143851_thomas15.html), and hes the president right...I mean if you dont read the news, then everything coming out of Iraq right now is roses.. and thats alot better then bodybags right?

Exactly what I was saying, it was not good in Iraq if you were a Shiite or a Kurd.
Please try and keep up.

[Kanabiis]

Exactly what I was saying, it was not good in Iraq if you were a Shiite or a Kurd.
Please try and keep up.

Actually, it seems it doesnt matter who you are, if your in Iraq right now your fucked.....

But I will still correct you, SUNNI or KURD.... since they are the ones dying predominately right now.

[R1chie]

So what's the solution?

That is the million dollar question. People here have no answer. The Bush administration thinks this is the correct answer that best serves the interest of Iraq and Iran. The democrats want to pull out.

The answer for the terrorists is to have the democrats voted in. They have made this clear numorous times and to get them in is a victory for them.

[Bassil Duwaik]

Iraq was far better off if you were one of Saddams cronies, You wouldn't say that if you were a Kurd or a Shiite. I would rather have a fighting chance at freedom than a life under a dictatorship. I'll bet you would feel the same if you were under the rule of a madman like Sadaam. You would wake up and wonder if you and your family would be dragged out of your house and executed because you spoke your mind against his regime.

My aunts husband was kidnapped last year and hasn't been heard from since. They've been living in Iraq for some 15 years and everything was fine. The guy was a dentist and didn't do anyone any harm. One day as he's leaving the office three guys wearing Iraqi police uniforms and skimasks put a gun to his head and force him into the car.

Meanwhile my aunt keeps calling every police station every day trying to find him. One min. they say they got him the next they know nothing about him. She then starts combing though all the pictures at the morgues. Some mutilated from torture and others fortunate enough to die from something as innocent as a car accident.

Simply my two cents on family in iraq...where did you say your family is living? I pray not in iraq.

[Kanabiis]

That is the million dollar question. People here have no answer. The Bush administration thinks this is the correct answer that best serves the interest of Iraq and Iran. The democrats want to pull out.

The answer for the terrorists is to have the democrats voted in. They have made this clear numorous times and to get them in is a victory for them.

Well if the farking Bush administration would have done things a bit differently, and not farking LIED to the world about oh, farking everything... maybe the democrats wouldn't even have had a chance...
its not like the American public wasnt behind his ass 100% after 9/11 or anything. It was HIS farking fight to loose, and he did, handidly... but your proly gonna blame the 'liberal' media for his failings, I mean, its CNN's fault that the entire war was based on lies, its CNNs fault that someone in the Bush administration leaked a CIA agents name, its CNNs fault that illegal wiretaps were happening.

Hell, if there was no media, we wouldnt know SHIT about anything and the Bush administration could claim anything they want...

But whatever...

But lets not let logic get involved with partisan political fear mongering

[D-Man]

Well if the fucking Bush administration would have done things a bit differently, and not fucking LIED to the world about oh, fucking everything... maybe the democrats wouldn't even have had a chance...
its not like the American public wasnt behind his ass 100% after 9/11 or anything. It was HIS fucking fight to loose, and he did, handidly... but knowing you, your gonna blame the 'liberal' media for his failings, I mean, its CNN's fault that the entire war was based on lies, its CNNs fault that someone in the Bush administration leaked a CIA agents name, its CNNs fault that illegal wiretaps were happening.

Hell, if there was no media, we wouldnt know SHIT about anything and the Bush administration could claim anything they want...

But whatever...

But lets not let logic get involved with your partisan political fear mongering, you fucking tool.

You keep bringing up the media. A media that is politically biased to the left. You are only hearing what they want you to know.
You are spouting partisan politics as well.

[FZRACE97]

It is very simple. The US needs to get the fuck out of Iraq.

[InlineSIX24]

I say listen to the commanders and unit that have been out there and see if the surge is helping first. From what I've heard administration should have supplemented the surge with a lot more special ops guys though.

[mtnairlover]

I've seen good arguments fall apart when people don't have anything else to fall upon accept personal attacks. When the emotion is kept out of an argument is when the argument becomes more important and meaningful to others.

Of course, that's just me.

[pilot]

Hey, guys, guys, this is not about who loves the world more. And who is more loyal. You are both strong and loyal.

This is about those over there. Let us be more respectful in honor of those that do not have a voice anymore...

http://www.recruitmenteducation.org/visuals/d-coffins.jpg

Please, please stop the infighting.

[Kanabiis]

Hey, guys, guys, this is not about who loves the world more. And who is more loyal. You are both strong and loyal.

This is about those over there. Let us be more respectful in honor of those that do not have a voice anymore...

http://www.recruitmenteducation.org/visuals/d-coffins.jpg

Please, please stop the infighting.

The infighting is a direct result of the political climate in the US... people are fighting about this because our political parties are being pitted against eachother in the political arena...

Its ironic that you used that coffin picture to talk about the troops... because others have tried to do the same thing, and met with censure by the pentagon... its ironic that both sides claim to be fighting for the troops..when the side that sent them over, doesnt want you to see pictures of dead soldiers, because it emboldens the enemy somehow. Killing soldiers apparently doesn't embolden them enough

Pentagon censures casket photos, Bush approves. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4807865/)

[636Chick]

ok that picture makes me sad:cry:

I have so many friends over there and worry sooooo much about them!!!!!

[64BonnieLass]

ok that picture makes me sad:cry:

I have so many friends over there and worry sooooo much about them!!!!!

+1. That's a hard one to see.

[pilot]

The infighting is a direct result of the political climate in the US... people are fighting about this because our political parties are being pitted against eachother in the political arena...

Its ironic that you used that coffin picture to talk about the troops... because others have tried to do the same thing, and met with censure by the pentagon... its ironic that both sides claim to be fighting for the troops..when the side that sent them over, doesnt want you to see pictures of dead soldiers, because it emboldens the enemy somehow. Killing soldiers apparently doesn't embolden them enough

Pentagon censures casket photos, Bush approves. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4807865/)I was allowing this to be a representation of those that no longer have a voice. There are many non-combatants that rest under another flag, too. All soldiers fight and die for what they must. Other than "brain-washed" individuals, right or wrong (depending upon point of view) fight and die for their cause.

[pilot]

My aunts husband was kidnapped last year and hasn't been heard from since. They've been living in Iraq for some 15 years and everything was fine. The guy was a dentist and didn't do anyone any harm. One day as he's leaving the office three guys wearing Iraqi police uniforms and skimasks put a gun to his head and force him into the car.

Meanwhile my aunt keeps calling every police station every day trying to find him. One min. they say they got him the next they know nothing about him. She then starts combing though all the pictures at the morgues. Some mutilated from torture and others fortunate enough to die from something as innocent as a car accident.

Simply my two cents on family in iraq...where did you say your family is living? I pray not in iraq.My thoughts to you're family in hopes that the father may return unharmed.

[Kanabiis]

I was allowing this to be a representation of those that no longer have a voice. There are many non-combatants that rest under another flag, too. All soldiers fight and die for what they must. Other than "brain-washed" individuals, right or wrong (depending upon point of view) fight and die for their cause.

And I'm right with you, my stance about the war is doing the same, giving a voice to those who have none. By virtue of being a soldier, you do as your ordered, if you like it or not.

Many many soldiers, and their generals have voiced their displeasure with this war, and desire to not be there.

I have that same pic by the way, posted on the wall here in my cubicle. I mourn the loss of every Ft. Carson soldier who dies, and I dread hearing a name, and seeing a face I know on the TV, its happened twice, and I hope every day it doesnt happen again.

[mtnairlover]

Four years and running and our war dead numbers are still hard to take, even one death is hard to take. But, I did a search, because I know there are thousands more injured and even more than that who have been affected by this war in other ways and those stories do not get told as well. So, here's some links to those stories...

Lessons in Democracy from the Iraq War Era
http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2251399169221402685/posts/default

Letters from soldiers against Bush
http://militaryagainstbush.tribe.net/thread/ff307e67-4ed6-4d67-be55-14dac1deafea

Iraq's War Dead from October, 2005
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/27353/

And more "sad" Iraq War stories
http://www.alternet.org/asoldierspeaks/

I'll say it again...bring 'em home, cuz it isn't working and come up with a different solution.

[dirkterrell]

I've seen good arguments fall apart when people don't have anything else to fall upon accept personal attacks. When the emotion is kept out of an argument is when the argument becomes more important and meaningful to others.

Of course, that's just me.

It's not just you. I'm rather dismayed at the level of incivility in political discussions these days. You know, it's ok if people disagree with you. :) That's actually pretty healthy. Instead we see the scariest thing of all (from both sides of the arena) where people try to shut others up by impugning their character or claiming that one has to, e.g., be a soldier on the ground in Iraq to have an opinion on the matter. Argue the merits of various actions if you want to try to find some solution rather than getting into these pointless pissing matches about who has a right to say what. Everyone has a right to their opinion and the freedom to express it. If someone disagrees with you, so be it. Let's at least keep the level of civility reasonable.

Dirk

[clustermagnet]

But what about the troops who volunteered to go into the military and signed up for this war. They are dying. We need to bring them home so they can sit here and we pay them money to do nothing. Our poor troops are dying over there, we need to bring them home so they are safe and sound. We should also dismantal our military like Clinton did because we don't really need it. We shouldn't be messing around in world affairs, we do not need to protect our alias or make sure the world is safe. We need to give into terrorists and religious leaders that want to kill us and others who do not believe the way they do. We can give into terrorist and give them what they really want, democrats voted into office. Even Osama has pleaded and prayed for this to happen so our military will away. If we do what they ask, everyone knows that terrorist will then be our friends and we will be one happy family all believing in one muslim god. (Maybe our women would learn to walk 3 steps behind us and we would be able to treat them like dirt again.) It is just not worth our men dying for the cause of freedom. BRING THEM HOME! http://www.motox.org/forum/stirthepot.gif

I love you

[clustermagnet]

funny comment removed. insert imagination here " "

[clustermagnet]

So what's the solution?

education, education education, in K-12... actually a complete revamp.

[Kristian]

What will education provide? Make everyone tolerant of another's view?

Who gets educated? Our kids? Their kids?

[mtnairlover]

The following is just a small portion of an article recounting the stories of 3 Iraq War Veterans...
Statistics are one way to tell the story of the approximately 1.4 million servicemen and women who've been to Iraq and Afghanistan. According to a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2004, 86 percent of soldiers in Iraq reported knowing someone who was seriously injured or killed there. Some 77 percent reported shooting at the enemy; 75 percent reported seeing women or children in imminent peril and being unable to help. Fifty-one percent reported handling or uncovering human remains; 28 percent were responsible for the death of a noncombatant. One in five Iraq veterans return home seriously impaired by post-traumatic stress disorder.

Words are another way. Below are the stories of three veterans of this war, told in their voices, edited for flow and efficiency but otherwise unchanged. They bear out the statistics and suggest that even those who are not diagnosably impaired return burdened by experiences they can neither forget nor integrate into their postwar lives. They speak of the inadequacy of what the military calls reintegration counseling, of the immediacy of their worst memories, of their helplessness in battle, of the struggle to rejoin a society that seems unwilling or unable to comprehend the price of their service. Strangers to one another and to me, they nevertheless tried, sometimes through tears, to communicate what the intensity of an ambiguous war has done to them.

One veteran, Sue Randolph, put it this way: "People walk up to me and say, 'Thank you for your service.' And I know they mean well, but I want to ask, 'Do you know what you're thanking me for?'" She, Rocky, and Michael Goss offer their stories here in the hope that citizens will begin to know.

The rest of the story can be found here...http://www.alternet.org/asoldierspeaks/55921/

It isn't just the dead...it's the more than one million and counting soldiers...it's the families of those soldiers, it's the Iraqi's and the world that have been affected. Yeah, war is tough the way it is, but my thought is it is the kind of war that is being fought that is senseless.

[clustermagnet]

What will education provide? Make everyone tolerant of another's view?

Who gets educated? Our kids? Their kids?

BAH i have edited my thoughts because i know my remark will not be "politically correct"

so here is a watered down version of my thoughts:

educate everyone... start with first grade, add foreign languages... MATH, MATH MATH... make sure your graduates are not laughed at around the world.

quite frankly, i giggle at most college graduates I interview. useless garbage the system is... but the change has to happen in the roots.

[R1chie]

Who needs teachers when we have liberal media blinding everyone with their slanted view, even those with clue.

[clustermagnet]

Who needs teachers when we have liberal media blinding everyone with their slanted view, even those with clue.

Regardless of who is blinding your views... media, society, church, friends... you need proper education to aid your thinking process, not to be blinded and surrounded by the stupid.

My view is: if a society condones people that are arrogant, and ignorant... you will generally get a mass of sheep that is very likely to make mistakes on the grand scale... ie what we see today.

The war should not be fought in in Iraq, or anywhere else for that matter. It should be fought in the minds of each average individual in US. Each child, each student. Now if you win that war, you can clam victory, because most other things will fall into place naturally.

[RYBO]

Who needs teachers when we have liberal media blinding everyone with their slanted view, even those with clue.

Doesn't quality education provide people with the tools to gather and process information? Wouldn't a more highly educated population (generally) have a better ability to form reasonable and rational opinions despite media coverage. My experience is that the more highly educated a person it (again wide sweeping strokes here) the better their ability to form opinions based on a wider range of sources. They tend to seek out information and learn more about things before making and asserting opinions.

So, in that light, education is a big help. Education is not "getting knowledge" in my opinion, but rather learning how to use resources.

[R1chie]

One veteran, Sue Randolph, put it this way: "People walk up to me and say, 'Thank you for your service.' And I know they mean well, but I want to ask, 'Do you know what you're thanking me for?'" She, Rocky, and Michael Goss offer their stories here in the hope that citizens will begin to know.
.

Perhaps they are thanking them for ridding a country of an evil dictator that raped it's women and gassed it's people. Or perhaps that the country now can vote on the leader. Freedom always comes with a price, count up the dead that fought to liberate America from Engand, those who fought in the civil war, those who died to keep the world from speaking German and Japanese. But maybe I am wrong and nothing good comes from war that allows people to be free.

[mtnairlover]

Education is not "getting knowledge" in my opinion, but rather learning how to use resources.

You are correct...education is knowing how to use the tools available.

[mtnairlover]

Perhaps they are thanking them for ridding a country of an evil dictator ....

Read the full story Rich.

[clustermagnet]

Doesn't quality education provide people with the tools to gather and process information? Wouldn't a more highly educated population (generally) have a better ability to form reasonable and rational opinions despite media coverage. My experience is that the more highly educated a person it (again wide sweeping strokes here) the better their ability to form opinions based on a wider range of sources. They tend to seek out information and learn more about things before making and asserting opinions.

So, in that light, education is a big help. Education is not "getting knowledge" in my opinion, but rather learning how to use resources.



EXACTLY! +1

I owe you coffee in the pits...

[*GSXR~SNAIL*]

Here we go...

http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/images/smilies/smiles2/stirthepot.gif

:banghead:

:horse:

[R1chie]

Read the full story Rich.

Read your stuff before and I understand your position, wish I had time to read this one but I am going riding my street bike instead of debating a complex issue that can't be resolved by a bunch of internet junkies like us. So in the spirit of breaking the cycle of addiction, I am hitting the street.

[mtnairlover]

Read your stuff before and I understand your position...

It isn't "my stuff"...that's why I highlighted that particular section in blue and offered up the link to the full story.

[Kanabiis]

If its not written by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter, Ritchie doesnt want to hear it. Everyone else is just some liberal media hack....

[R1chie]

If its not written by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter, Ritchie doesnt want to hear it. Everyone else is just some liberal media hack....

And that is how well you know me. I don't listen to Rush or Sean. I have never read any of Anns books but thought she has a big mouth when she has made some presonal attack blunders. I have my own mind and draw my own conclusions thank you very much.

[#1Townie]

Doesn't quality education provide people with the tools to gather and process information? Wouldn't a more highly educated population (generally) have a better ability to form reasonable and rational opinions despite media coverage. My experience is that the more highly educated a person it (again wide sweeping strokes here) the better their ability to form opinions based on a wider range of sources. They tend to seek out information and learn more about things before making and asserting opinions.

So, in that light, education is a big help. Education is not "getting knowledge" in my opinion, but rather learning how to use resources.

you know somthing... i have learned that the more book smarts a person has the less street smarts they have..... they could know all of the world events and be up to date with every new law that is being put into effect but they dont know how to get around bad parts of town and end up victoms....

[dapper]

This topic involves the "middle east". Not only is Iraq a double edged sword, but the war on terrorism has religious adherence. We should bill Iraq for our services every month or any country we're within to rebuild. Iraq should have a Roth IRA type of plan for all the soldiers families which suffered a direct impact...for the next 90 years.

[clustermagnet]

http://www.break.com/index/jewish-girl-prank-calls-her-parents.html

tension breaker, had to be done

[xxuxx]

While democracy is great for us, I not sure Iraq is ready for it given the religious fanaticsm, predjudice against women, etc etc. Their culture is not ready for freedom of speech and all it provides. Even our good ole USA just 50 yrs ago had severe predjudice against blacks, can you imagine a country (Iraq)150 yrs behind us in cultural values being force fed our version of freedom? While I love our freedom, I don't think they are ready for it just yet.
From a stategic point of view, it's great to have a foothold in the middle east hotbed, even if we haven't yet reaped any benefits from this position ie. OIL.

[Brizz]

Maybe you guys should get off your ass and come over here and do something about it instead of being armchair politicians..WTF..Its easy to bitch from your lazy boy.

[Bassil Duwaik]

While democracy is great for us, I not sure Iraq is ready for it given the religious fanaticsm, predjudice against women, etc etc. Their culture is not ready for freedom of speech and all it provides. Even our good ole USA just 50 yrs ago had severe predjudice against blacks, can you imagine a country (Iraq)150 yrs behind us in cultural values being force fed our version of freedom? While I love our freedom, I don't think they are ready for it just yet.
From a stategic point of view, it's great to have a foothold in the middle east hotbed, even if we haven't yet reaped any benefits from this position ie. OIL.

I'll second that

[pilot]

Maybe you guys should get off your ass and come over here and do something about it instead of being armchair politicians..WTF..Its easy to bitch from your lazy boy.How was your day Brizz? How did the LT have you spending your time? Fill us in a bit if you don't mind. Heck, I'm glad you've got internet in the Green Zone.

[clustermagnet]

obviously you assholes arent paying attention!

http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=334356


gooose fraba

wait is that R1....... no, cant be hehehehhehehehhehehheheheh

[pilot]

obviously you assholes arent paying attention!

http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=334356


gooose fraba

wait is that R1c........ no, cant be hehehehhehehehhehehhehehehJive ass monkey balls, ha.

[R1chie]

While democracy is great for us, I not sure Iraq is ready for it given the religious fanaticsm, predjudice against women, etc etc. Their culture is not ready for freedom of speech and all it provides. Even our good ole USA just 50 yrs ago had severe predjudice against blacks, can you imagine a country (Iraq)150 yrs behind us in cultural values being force fed our version of freedom? While I love our freedom, I don't think they are ready for it just yet.
From a stategic point of view, it's great to have a foothold in the middle east hotbed, even if we haven't yet reaped any benefits from this position ie. OIL.

I think what you are saying is they do not deserve democracy. Their women deserve to be raped and mistreated. The people deserved to be gassed. They don't deserve to own businesses or have the chance as we did (we had a lot of predjudice when this country started out and they don't have slaves) to be free. Maybe you are right but it doesn't sit to well with me.

[R1chie]

Doesn't quality education provide people with the tools to gather and process information? Wouldn't a more highly educated population (generally) have a better ability to form reasonable and rational opinions despite media coverage. My experience is that the more highly educated a person it (again wide sweeping strokes here) the better their ability to form opinions based on a wider range of sources. They tend to seek out information and learn more about things before making and asserting opinions.

So, in that light, education is a big help. Education is not "getting knowledge" in my opinion, but rather learning how to use resources.

My statement was a stab at the liberal media and not a general one. Of course education is a key to unlocking the mind. But even our institution of education are teaching with a slant and if you do not agree with the liberal political (redistribution of wealth) religious (secular humanism) slant you are out. You are considered closed minded.

The key is freedom, to make your own choices, to be educated or not, to have the chance to own your own business or not, to work or not (and suffer the consequences for your choice) in the case of Iraq, to be raped or not, to be gassed or not ect... Once you have freedom, then things fall into place. Education has not fixed ghettos, drug use, murder in our country. But freedom has brought people out of those ghettos to become great leaders. Education is part of that but without freedom from a dictator you don't have the choice of education.

What are you going to do, send educators over to a country that is run by a dictator? Don't think he would want thinking people to question his authority.

You cannot be educated to use resources when a greedy dictator is using them up and distributing them in the way he sees fit. Freedom allow people who want to work access to those resources. I think we have done a good thing for Iraq, they have the chance to have access to education and use one of their resources, oil, to further the devolopment of that country.

[Kanabiis]

Their women deserve to be raped and mistreated.

Yea, its a shame rape only happens in the Middle East...

I mean, its been at least what, 60 years since a rape occurred here in the good 'ol US of A....

And because we really give a shit about the raping and killing of women, right after we are done in Iraq, we are going to Darfur, then Sudan, then Ethiopia, followed by Saudi Arabia, then Syria, then Jordan...and continue until there isn't a rape anywhere in the world right? Right?

[clustermagnet]

Kanabiis, he's a child that screams for attention, ignore him

[Bassil Duwaik]

I think what you are saying is they do not deserve democracy. Their women deserve to be raped and mistreated. The people deserved to be gassed. They don't deserve to own businesses or have the chance as we did (we had a lot of predjudice when this country started out and they don't have slaves) to be free. Maybe you are right but it doesn't sit to well with me.

R1chie you seriously disgust me saying that all the women in my family and others out there are being rapped and mistreated. Then your saying that they are being gassed. On top of that you say we're not allowed to own businesses. Where do you get your information from? Have you ever been over there? Do you think your perfect? I think you should stop getting your information from nickelodeon.

There was a small town that saddam gassed killing some 5000ppl. It was wrong but he is still better then what bush is doing out there. Bush used white phosphorous against civilians in fallujah there being no better then saddam. besides why do you keep focusing on saddam...I WANT OSAMAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Just an example but women out there are held to highest regard. Even in the koran it says that heaven is underneath the mothers feet. Hence, children should be literary kissing their mothers feet and showing the upmost respect. It says nothing about the father like that. Just because a few people do wrong doesn't mean that should be applied to the more then billion other people out there...does that make sense or are you still going though some kind of ethnocentric shock?

[Kanabiis]

R1chie you seriously disgust me saying that all the women in my family and others out there are being rapped and mistreated. Then your saying that they are being gassed. On top of that you say we're not allowed to own businesses. Where do you get your information from? Have you ever been over there? Do you think your perfect? I think you should stop getting your information from nickelodeon.

There was a small town that saddam gassed killing some 5000ppl. It was wrong but he is still better then what bush is doing out there. Bush used white phosphorous against civilians in fallujah there being no better then saddam. besides why do you keep focusing on saddam...I WANT OSAMAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Just an example but women out there are held to highest regard. Even in the koran it says that heaven is underneath the mothers feet. Hence, children should be literary kissing their mothers feet and showing the upmost respect. It says nothing about the father like that. Just because a few people do wrong doesn't mean that should be applied to the more then billion other people out there...does that make sense or are you still going though some kind of ethnocentric shock?

Quit clouding the issue with FACTS....

its much easier for all parties involved if we continue to use speculation and hyperbole to make points...

Fox news says its so, its so... I mean how can you not believe Sean Hannity and Brit Hume..

Get with the program here.....

[Bassil Duwaik]

suprised to see such a low voter turnout

[pilot]

suprised to see such a low voter turnoutWell, even considering that the CSC is a sample of the "generally under 50 crowd" and not a full polling, I'd say it is about normal for a poll.

Looks like voting will need to close soon.

[R1chie]

.

There was a small town that saddam gassed killing some 5000ppl. It was wrong but he is still better then what bush is doing out there. ?

What I find disgusting is that you make Bush out to be the criminal.

[R1chie]

Kanabiis, he's a child that screams for attention, ignore him

LOL, if that is so you are the Pot calling the kettle black. :)

Like I stated before, once the discussion is over you resort to personal attack. To me that is childish but as I said before, people like you who attack people personally are not even worth discussing things online.

[Bassil Duwaik]

read this and then We'll turn a blind eye to it afterward. At least I'm wise enough to admit saddam was wrong but seems as though your taking the position that bush is never wrong, or if he is it's only skin deep. And if you say that this is a terrorist who placed this article go to bbc or msnbc or better yet NYtimes. Or if you really want a good look at it go to rotten.com or ogrish.com or any site or news sources that is unbiased or has little hope of gain in reporting such a matter. And afterwards lets go to every other country in the world were you’ve got ethnocentric shock and place a gun to their head and show them democracy... But wait that would be wrong…let’s get someone else to put a gun to their head. Once we're done doing that let's maybe see if we can google bin laden and see if he can get his phone number and ask him to turn himself in, but that's only if we have the time to do it of course


It is better to live a day under a tyrant then a day under anarchy.

[R1chie]

It is better to live a day under a tyrant then a day under anarchy.

It would be better to live under a democracy than either... oh wait, Iraq is a democracy, thanks Bush. :)

[#1Townie]

you know i havnt read any real good one from either side... yeah atack rich on a personal leval.... yeah thats cool... but any ways i still hate him im just saying this cuz both sides have no proof of anything... lets just say this... right now we are in a war... we are in a war with a people that hate us for being who we are... they will attack us every chance they get... crying about spilled milk will not make any thing better... giving up on the war will not make anything better... we give up now they win... they win they back to our soil... then more more people die.... you know we loose like 6 guys a day in that place... if you ask me that aint half bad... our boy are doing a damn good job... we may have lost 6 guys to fighting but when you take a step back and look at it... shit denver probly had more people die today then soldies in a war zone... GOOD FN JOB BOYS!!!! they are doing their best to keep us safe..... and yes they are keeping us safe from the ass hats that want to kill all of us... let them do their thing... they will come out on top... when we win this war then we can thank all the brave men and women who gave their life so we could sleep at night and not worry about some kind if atack on all of us......


brizz bro if the gov would have let me i would be there man... keep up the good work... thank you...

[R1chie]

you know i havnt read any real good one from either side... yeah atack rich on a personal leval.... yeah thats cool... but any ways i still hate him im just saying this cuz both sides have no proof of anything... lets just say this... right now we are in a war... we are in a war with a people that hate us for being who we are... they will attack us every chance they get... crying about spilled milk will not make any thing better... giving up on the war will not make anything better... we give up now they win... they win they back to our soil... then more more people die.... you know we loose like 6 guys a day in that place... if you ask me that aint half bad... our boy are doing a damn good job... we may have lost 6 guys to fighting but when you take a step back and look at it... shit denver probly had more people die today then soldies in a war zone... GOOD FN JOB BOYS!!!! they are doing their best to keep us safe..... and yes they are keeping us safe from the ass hats that want to kill all of us... let them do their thing... they will come out on top... when we win this war then we can thank all the brave men and women who gave their life so we could sleep at night and not worry about some kind if atack on all of us......


brizz bro if the gov would have let me i would be there man... keep up the good work... thank you...

Dang, I thought we were buds and now you say you hate me. Bummer. But you do bring up a good point.

According to this denver website http://www.thedenverdailynews.com/?page=archives&p=335

We have lost 2000 in the war up to 2005. Some statistc say closer to 4500 to date but lets say 5000. Lets compare that to.

How many people die in the US from say.... smoking per year. 1205
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_die_each_day_in_the_US_from_smokin g

These people die because of choice.

How about drunk driving... only 16885 in 2005
http://www.1st-alcoholism-treatment.com/Some-Sobering-Information-about-Drunk-Driving.html 43000 according to this site. http://digg.com/offbeat_news/U_S_Drunk_Driving_Deaths_Rise_to_Highest_Level_in_ 14_Years

These people die on their way to work or play

How about in the Vietnam war. 55000 Americans http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_died_in_the_Vietnam_War

These people died in a war.

5000 have died because they were bringing democracy to Iraq and making sure no WMD's were there, they also removed a dictator.

If you compare presidents for military deaths, it would look like this.

George W. Bush . . . . . 5187 (2001-2004)
Bill Clinton . . . . . . . . . 4302 (1993-1996)
George H.W. Bush . . . . 6223 (1989-1992)
Ronald Reagan . . . . . . 9163 (1981-1984)
http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/003564.html

You make a pretty good point Townie.

My point would be that freedom is not free. There is always a price and that price would be blood. I guess you could debate whether the people of Iraq deserve democracy. You could debate if people born in this country because they are spoiled and never had to pay the price for freedom may not deserve it. But that is another debate.

We were born to die, do you die on your way to work, or on a sports bike ride, or die fighting a war that frees a country from a dictator and makes sure that country will no longer attack its neighbors. The nice thing about America is that it is a democracy so you have a choice which way you die.

Bring the troops home so they can die on the highways of the US. Maybe it would be better to let the troops decide by not joining the military or leaving the military if they don't like this war.

Neither Rush or Ann Coulter indoctrinated me with this information, I came to my own conclusion (with townies help)
I am ready for my personal attack now for having an opinion (that is contrary to the majority here).

[Brizz]

hey Rich,...When were you in? When have you served..? WAIT you sit in your house and bitch..Hmm point made...I think these ppl have been asking nicely for you to shut the fuck up..GET A HINT!!!!

Love ya townie!

[R1chie]

hey Rich,...When were you in? When have you served..? WAIT you sit in your house and bitch..Hmm point made...I think these ppl have been asking nicely for you to shut the fuck up..GET A HINT!!!!

Love ya townie!

When was I bitching Brizz, I support the war and the troops. You could ask the same question of a just about everyone else here who has never served and wants to bring the troops home.

I was not the one who posted this thread, I just posted my opinion. Why don't you post up yours and tell us whether the troops should come home. What is the old saying, birds of a feather...

[Vance]

Trying.... to.... resist.... posting....
Avoiding.... flame.... war....

Go Brizz go. Lay the bitchslap down.

[R1chie]

Wow, Vance showed up, I am really getting some mileage out of this thread.

Well, I am going for a long ride today on the old dirtbike so don't think I am ignoring your personal attacks and pointless arguments. I will be back tonight to see all the thoughtful responses.

[Snowman]

Lets see how many more miles per post this will get me….

What is this arrogance that allot of people have lately when it come to the way other people should live? We believe in this and you should too… Ever think these people simply don’t want to?

The reason democracy works in the countries it does is because the people there chose it, not because an outside society thought it was best for them.

We started the war with England for independence, not the French or Spanish. English parliament came about because of internal reforms. France because they over through their own monarchy.

There was only a small minority that wanted democracy for Iraq and most of that population was outside the country. I’m sure they are happy to have it now but there is not the will there to maintain it.

The people have to want democracy for it to work. Just look at want is happening in this country. The democratic process we have is corrupted by lobbyists and money to get legislation passed to help who? Not the people but the corporations paying the lobbyists.

You can see it in every piece of legislation passed. All those line items thrown in at the last minute and deals made so the legislators can keep their jobs.

If we can’t get it right here what gives us the right to impose it on someone else?

Come on Vance… You know to wanta

[R1chie]

Lets see how many more miles per post this will get me….

What is this arrogance that allot of people have lately when it come to the way other people should live? We believe in this and you should too… Ever think these people simply don’t want to?

The reason democracy works in the countries it does is because the people there chose it, not because an outside society thought it was best for them.

We started the war with England for independence, not the French or Spanish. English parliament came about because of internal reforms. France because they over through their own monarchy.

There was only a small minority that wanted democracy for Iraq and most of that population was outside the country. I’m sure they are happy to have it now but there is not the will there to maintain it.

The people have to want democracy for it to work. Just look at want is happening in this country. The democratic process we have is corrupted by lobbyists and money to get legislation passed to help who? Not the people but the corporations paying the lobbyists.

You can see it in every piece of legislation passed. All those line items thrown in at the last minute and deals made so the legislators can keep their jobs.

If we can’t get it right here what gives us the right to impose it on someone else?

So you think a dictator who imposes his will on the people is better?

American democracy has its faults no doubt, but it is the best system we have in the world today IMHO. Lowest unemployment rate for a country this size, more freedom (yes it is dwindling away only because people vote our rights away), more prosperity, more of just about everything. Now Iraq will have the chance to have the same thing and maybe learn from our mistakes. Maybe not but IMHO it is a better that what they had before. Only the people in power wanted to continue with Iraq with Saddam in power. I cannot speak for the rest of the people in Iraq, but neither can you but I bet if we both lived there under the same conditions they did and knew about democracy and voting, we would choose it over a dictatorship.

"There was only a small minority that wanted democracy for Iraq and most of that population was outside the country." I would like to know how you draw this conclusion and where you get facts to support it. Did Saddam have a vote cast to see if the people wanted democracy? With democracy, they can vote themselves back into a dictatorship socialistic/communistic society (like we are), but at least they will have a constitution to give them basic rights.

[Kanabiis]

"There was only a small minority that wanted democracy for Iraq and most of that population was outside the country." I would like to know how you draw this conclusion and where you get facts to support it.

Oh I dont know, how about the fact that the people there are FUCKING BOMBING THE TROOPS...

Dude were you born this stupid or did you work hard to get that way.....

[R1chie]

Oh I dont know, how about the fact that the people there are FUCKING BOMBING THE TROOPS...

Dude were you born this stupid or did you work hard to get that way.....

You mean the fact that the people who were empowered by Saddam during his rule and terrorist crossing the boarder are bombing our troops? Yep I would think those people don't like us there.

Nice personal attack. But I have loaded up the bike, hope you have as good a day as I am going to have.

[Kanabiis]

George W. Bush . . . . . 5187 (2001-2004)
Bill Clinton . . . . . . . . . 4302 (1993-1996)
George H.W. Bush . . . . 6223 (1989-1992)
Ronald Reagan . . . . . . 9163 (1981-1984)
http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/003564.html


Bring the troops home so they can die on the highways of the US. Maybe it would be better to let the troops decide by not joining the military or leaving the military if they don't like this war.



After reading this post, I pretty much don't even have a personal attack on you, I just wish really really bad things on you, and I don't do that often...

This chart only tells a small story, although it tells the story YOU want to tell.

What this chart doesn't show is how many deaths in combat vs. training accidents, and every day accidents, like car accidents, boating accidents, murder etc. etc.

Basically what you are saying here is, troops are for dying in combat, and if they dont die in combat then their lives are wasted....

What a chickenshit thing for you to say, since you have never enlisted, and will never enlist.

I dont really have much more of a response to you.....

[Snowman]

So you think a dictator who imposes his will on the people is better?

American democracy has its faults no doubt, but it is the best system we have in the world today IMHO. Lowest unemployment rate for a country this size, more freedom (yes it is dwindling away only because people vote our rights away), more prosperity, more of just about everything. Now Iraq will have the chance to have the same thing and maybe learn from our mistakes. Maybe not but IMHO it is a better that what they had before. Only the people in power wanted to continue with Iraq with Saddam in power. I cannot speak for the rest of the people in Iraq, but neither can you but I bet if we both lived there under the same conditions they did and knew about democracy and voting, we would choose it over a dictatorship.No I think people who stand up to dictators and throw them out are better. Because when you get people organize at that level things get done.

I agree our democracy is the best system going, at the moment. However due to Americans lack of interest in it, I do not believe it is something we should be imposing on other countries.

If they ask for it, they have to do something to prove they want it such as overthrowing a dictator. It has been done more than once and by people with far less in the way of means to do so. We people yell “Freedom is free” what they are saying is you have to be invested or you don’t get the dividends. (That one is for all you corporate types out there…)

You have to want democracy to make it work…

However I have no problem what so ever sending lobbyists into a war zone to buy off the government. Hell I wouldn’t even give them body armor or weapons to save the corporations some money.

[Kanabiis]

You mean the fact that the people who were empowered by Saddam during his rule and terrorist crossing the boarder are bombing our troops? Yep I would think those people don't like us there.


Thats funny, because not even George Bush believes that... from his own words: (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/11/20051130-2.html)

"A clear strategy begins with a clear understanding of the enemy we face. The enemy in Iraq is a combination of rejectionists, Saddamists and terrorists. The rejectionists are by far the largest group. These are ordinary Iraqis, mostly Sunni Arabs, who miss the privileged status they had under the regime of Saddam Hussein -- and they reject an Iraq in which they are no longer the dominant group. . . . The second group that makes up the enemy in Iraq is smaller, but more determined. It contains former regime loyalists who held positions of power under Saddam Hussein -- people who still harbor dreams of returning to power. These hard-core Saddamists are trying to foment anti-democratic sentiment amongst the larger Sunni community. . . .
The third group is the smallest, but the most lethal: the terrorists affiliated with or inspired by al Qaeda."



Guess where he got that information, the CIA, who after doing a long study, found the majority, 95% of the attacks on American troops were being done by Iraqis....

But hey, keep making up things as you go..... like I always say, clouding the issue with facts is counter productive... its much easier to debate facts pulled out of your ass.....

[D-Man]

hey Rich,...When were you in? When have you served..? WAIT you sit in your house and bitch..Hmm point made...I think these ppl have been asking nicely for you to shut the fuck up..GET A HINT!!!!

Love ya townie!

Are you saying Richie cant' have an opinion and express it unless he has served in the military? I don't see him bitching about anything. The thread started as a bitch and he is just voicing his opinion. Also, on this page alone there has been three personal attacks against him, yet he remains calm and just expresses his point of view.

[Kristian]

A whole bunch of arm-chair, monday morning quarterbacking going on here.

[Kanabiis]

Are you saying Richie cant' have an opinion and express it unless he has served in the military? I don't see him bitching about anything. The thread started as a bitch and he is just voicing his opinion. Also, on this page alone there has been three personal attacks against him, yet he remains calm and just expresses his point of view.

Well you know its hard to stay calm when someones opinion is that you should be DEAD... which is why Brizz got so angry.

He is entitled to his opinion, however if Ritchie wants to speak about the conditions in Iraq, maybe he should be there first right? right?

I mean, who is in a better position to talk about whats going on behind the scenes there, Ritchie, a armchair internet tough guy, or Brizz, a soldier on his third tour in Iraq?

I know, I know, you guys know better then Brizz, cuz Fox news told you....

I took the liberty of subscribing you and Ritchie to this magazine:

http://farm.tucows.com/images/2006/06/internet_tough_guy_magazine.jpg

[D-Man]

After reading this post, I pretty much don't even have a personal attack on you, I just wish really really bad things on you, and I don't do that often...

This chart only tells a small story, although it tells the story YOU want to tell.

What this chart doesn't show is how many deaths in combat vs. training accidents, and every day accidents, like car accidents, boating accidents, murder etc. etc.

Basically what you are saying here is, troops are for dying in combat, and if they dont die in combat then their lives are wasted....

What a chickenshit thing for you to say, since you have never enlisted, and will never enlist.

I dont really have much more of a response to you.....

Unfortunately Kanabiis, members of the military are a tool used by the government. This is the case for all militaries. GI stands for "government issue" just like a weapon or a jeep. They are not to have an opinion or a choice or voice of when or where they fight. If they did, the country would be vunerable to any attack from foreign governments or

[D-Man]

foreign powers. It is up to the people not in the military to voice the opinion and to decide when to send the troops to war.

[Kanabiis]

Unfortunately Kanabiis, members of the military are a tool used by the government. This is the case for all militaries. GI stands for "government issue" just like a weapon or a jeep. They are not to have an opinion or a choice or voice of when or where they fight. If they did, the country would be vunerable to any attack from foreign governments or

You dont think I know this? Its also the responsibility to use that tool with the utmost of care, and respect. Soldiers and their commanding officers have an unspoken bond, that the commanding officer will not put that soldier in harms way for an unjust, or untrue cause.

George Bush has failed his troops, every troop that dies in Iraq dies for OIL and for a vendetta, NOT for my freedom...

That is a crime..... and I am outraged over it...

[D-Man]

We just hope that the government doesn't decide to send them to war for an unjust cause. Which is what this debate is about.

[Kanabiis]

Since we are on the topic of foreign fighters in Iraq, I figured I would also link to a number of independent studies on that to see who we are really fighting...

We will start here (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html):

"The US and Iraqi governments have vastly overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, and most of them don't come from Saudi Arabia, according to a new report from the Washington-based Center for Strategic International Studies (CSIS). According to a piece in The Guardian, this means the US and Iraq "feed the myth" that foreign fighters are the backbone of the insurgency. While the foreign fighters may stoke the insurgency flames, they make up only about 4 to 10 percent of the estimated 30,000 insurgents."

4 to 10 percent of the insurgents are from outside of Iraq... and since we KNOW for a fact that there was no Al Quida in Iraq prior to the US invasion of Iraq, because you know, Bin Laden hated Saddam as much as he hated America. He even went so far as to release a tape decrying Saddam as an infidel deserving of death (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.commondreams.org%2Fheadlines0 3%2F0211-11.htm&ei=e0azRsyLKIKOigGajMDrAQ&usg=AFQjCNEhYdGrk7W4gRic5xIOHiRvA95H6Q&sig2=IQFrck7d-BeYI8PXwPr4lQ). This is further proof that most of the insurgency in Iraq is home grown, sure they get assistance from outside Iraq, its not much different then any other revolution, kinda like when the French helped the Americans over throw England.

Lets dig further into this Al Quida myth though shall we.

The CATO Institute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute) issued a report regarding the insurgency which came to the same conclusion, that Al Quida played little to no significant role in the attacks on American troops. Now, let me educate you if you are not familiar with the CATO institute, they are not some left wing, liberal think tank like some of you might be quick to say, they have often been labeled as the standard bearer for the American conservative political movement. They have aligned themselves with such presidents as Ronald Regan, and George H. W. Bush....

Moving along, the CATO institute report (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=7353)included this little nugget:

"Al Qaeda in Iraq" is "a canard that the perpetrators of the current catastrophe use to frighten people into supporting a fatally flawed, and seemingly endless, nation-building debacle."

Wow, a conservative think tank saying that the use of labeling the insurgency in Iraq as Al Quida is being used to frighten Americans into supporting the war. Say it isn't so...

My last piece will center on the town of Falluja, one of the most violent cities in Iraq right now. In 2004 after a series of major battles in Falluja, conservative journalist Michael Gordan wrote a long article published (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/09/international/middleeast/09FALL.html?ex=1182744000&en=9ccd44786cd1aef1&ei=5070)in the New York Times regarding the fight in Falluja. In a four thousand word essay the name Al Quida was NEVER mentioned, infact he attempted to find one single Iraqi insurgent fighter linked to Al Quida and could not... his essay is full of references to the real insurgents, Iraqi Sunnis who were hostile to the American occupation. I encourage you to read the linked article (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/09/international/middleeast/09FALL.html?ex=1182744000&en=9ccd44786cd1aef1&ei=5070) it is an incredible read and details many aspects of our struggles in Iraq. Today however, if you hear the town of Falluja mentioned in the news, you will most likely hear of the Al Quida insurgents... where did these
Al Quida fighters come from? Space? No, they were never Al Quida, the Bush administration, faced with declining poll numbers needed a way to gain support again from the public, so they started calling EVERY insurgent Al Quida....

Hows that for distorted facts....

[Bassil Duwaik]

Are you saying Richie cant' have an opinion and express it unless he has served in the military? I don't see him bitching about anything. The thread started as a bitch and he is just voicing his opinion. Also, on this page alone there has been three personal attacks against him, yet he remains calm and just expresses his point of view.

The way Richie put it made it sound as though one life doesn't mean anything or means very little because there are so many that had died. It reminds me of the story about a guy who's walking the beach throwing starfish back into the ocean. Someone happens to see him tossing them back in and yells "mack your not going to make a difference there are millions of them." He then picks up another one and throws it back into the ocean and says "I made a difference to that one." Well it seems as though Richie is the exact opposite in the way he holds his views

Moreover, I would rather have lived under saddam hands down then under the anarchy going on now. If you recall my story about my aunts husband...she can attest to this first hand among the other millions of Iraqi refugees on top of the other 40% earning less then a dollar a day. On top of the other god nows how many living in fear and having bombs exploding all around their homes all the while we (usa) is saying this is good for you! You can't force democracy on anyone! It is a gift that has to be worked toward not imposed! Take a hint....moreover, I am serously tired of Iraq WHERE IS OSAMA WHERE IS OSAMA I WANT OSAMA OSAMA OSAMA OSAMA!

[Bassil Duwaik]

Thought this was interesting too.

http://www.youtube.com/v/vAH3AeFy0SY

[xxuxx]

Yeah, yeah das wha I'm talkin about!! let's go get Osama!!! I hate osama....is he related ot obama?? hmmm...they're both muslim...I wonder??!!

[The Black Knight]

Well I'm sure I'll get jammed for this one but oh well. Honestly I read R1chie's comments and didn't construe the lack of sincerity towards our troops.

I think in his round about way of showing facts on what each president did and how many troops died under each said presidents time in office. Some people may have construed that as, "well these current lives don't mean anything and look at other presidents body counts." I don't think that was the intention whatsoever.

Honestly everyone has good points about this war. It's a war that is affecting everyone around it. From every country. Myself even as a Republican I don't support this war in Iraq. I do support a war against Osama and his cohorts. In fact I think a war against Osama is a great thing. For his merciless attack on those innocent people on Sept. 11th, I'd love to see the US ram a atomic warhead right up his butt and watch as him and his followers vaporize in a ball of fire.

And since this is a topic on stay in or get out. Well my take on the war is this. I think it's jacked up that we are in Iraq. Why? see paragraph above. I think we are in the wrong place and not producing results. I don't think we should have gone there. However and this is a big however, because like anything else in life we stepped in a big pile of shit(pardon the word). And now we need to clean up the mess we created. What I think is more jacked up is that we have troops dying everyday and we've got nothing to show for it. Nothing short of an atomic strike is going to produce the result we need and that's total submission and proving a point in a big way. I don't think we need to continuously waste human life, when we've got a great mechanism that can do the job for us.

I know I know, before you start cracking me with comments on an atomic bomb is not the only way or you're Nuclear Guy and that's all you want. That's not the case. I wish we could withdraw and leave the place the way it is. Because honestly I really don't care about Iraq. I don't and I own that. Call me callous or mean, but I really don't care about Iraq or Iraqi's. Especially when they don't want us there and the majority of them don't. I do care about my own countrymen out there shedding their blood for a people who live for DRAMA. That's the way they are. And I get that. They need drama, or some form of strife. If it's not a dictatorship it's anarchy. If they got a shot at democracy they'd turn it as totalitarian as quick as they can. Because that's what they do. That's who they are, they don't care about each other, they only care about jamming each other and getting ahead of everyone else. Now that may be a very broad statement and I would be willing to bet that there are some very good and kind people over there. And what's even more jacked up is they have to live with that kind of behavior over there. They can't rise above it because circumstance won't allow it. They're screwed in so many words.

I can see both sides to the argument from everyone here. R1chie's got points and so does everyone else. For one it is great that they don't have to deal with Saddam and his malicious regime. But they are also in another nightmare of pure anarchy. Which in my opinion is brought on by the rules of circumstance the USA is bound by. If we were to give our soldiers the o.k. to start smoking down all of these insurgents without even letting them provoke a attack then you might get somewhere. If we were to allow our military to open the correct can of whoopass needed, then I think we might have a better outcome of this. It's not going to happen and we're going to sit here and be pissed until we get a new president. And whose to say the new President won't bring them home? You never know because they are politicians and politicians are like used car salesman, they'll sale their mother if they can make a deal happen.

As far as personal insults go. You know we are all adults and not degenerates. At least I hope. Well some of you aren't adults because you've got the license plates to prove it(cough Florida). But I think we can agree to disagree or just completely disagree and even get pissed at what someone else says. But that's the wonderful thing about this country is that we've got the First Amendment to back everyone up. And while it's your 1st Amendment right to jam R1chie with cracks on him being stupid or wishing not good things is your right. He also has a right to be treated as a human being and an American human being at that. Which in my opinion we all deserve some respect and professional courtesy. R1chie has not slammed you guys with personal insults and has remained quite when he's gotten flamed. Smack is one thing but personal insults are tired and played out. It's weak smack and not the kind of intelligent smack some of you are capable of producing. We all love to volley back and forth which is great and it makes amazing discussion. But when you have to bust out the personal attack card means you've got nothing in the deck and it's weak.

Again I'm sure I'll get jihad of comments from people saying I'm sticking up for R1chie and what not. That's not the case, I'm just saying he's kept up his part of the conversation and remained civil and I just think the other contingent can show the same professional retorts. It's not hard people because when I have a dicussion with someone in person and if they get irritated and resort to blasts and name calling I immediately end the conversation and get up and leave. It's semi-retarded banter. And I don't listen too it. I know people disagree with what I have to say. I feel though that if I can say my piece and someone actually looks at it objectively and realizes my point that I'm trying to get across and can understand me then I feel at least someone gets it. Even if it's just one person.

Well that's my take on it and it's plenty long enough....

[mrbeefy]

C'mon, Chimpy has admitted Iraq never had WMDs, no link to Al Qaeda, NOW Al Qaeda is all over Iraq, Iran is all over Iraq, remember back in the 80's the iran/iraq war? Iran got it's wad going over what is going on in Iraq right about now.

Chimpy f*cked up, He let Karl Rove, Phallus Cheney and Condilingus f*ck up the whole world, LIES, Misinformation, Manipulating Intelligence.... ahh wait the Repukes have been manipulating intelligence for DECADES.... that is nothing new.

It's funny how FOX NEW'isms get into the mindset of Re-puppet-licans. the hysterical liberals.....

remember when we had Habeas Corpus?

Do you even understand why Karl Rove, errrrr Chimpy Bush had their attorneys fired? because they refused to pursue FALSE election fraud allegations....to ABUSE power...

its like YOU getting accused of a crime you did not commit? still don't get it?

I am waiting for R1chie to sound off..... another Re-PUPPET-lican

[The Black Knight]

C'mon, Chimpy has admitted Iraq never had WMDs, no link to Al Qaeda, NOW Al Qaeda is all over Iraq, Iran is all over Iraq, remember back in the 80's the iran/iraq war? Iran got it's wad going over what is going on in Iraq right about now.

Chimpy f*cked up, He let Karl Rove, Phallus Cheney and Condilingus f*ck up the whole world, LIES, Misinformation, Manipulating Intelligence.... ahh wait the Repukes have been manipulating intelligence for DECADES.... that is nothing new.

It's funny how FOX NEW'isms get into the mindset of Re-puppet-licans. the hysterical liberals.....

remember when we had Habeas Corpus?

Do you even understand why Karl Rove, errrrr Chimpy Bush had their attorneys fired? because they refused to pursue FALSE election fraud allegations....to ABUSE power...

its like YOU getting accused of a crime you did not commit? still don't get it?

I am waiting for R1chie to sound off..... another Re-PUPPET-lican


That take sucked...

Lies,misinformation and manipulating intelligence is what the government does. Democrats and Republicans included. No side is immune to it and both have done jacked up things....

[R1chie]

Since we are on the topic of foreign fighters in Iraq, I figured I would also link to a number of independent studies on that to see who we are really fighting...

We will start here:

"The US and Iraqi governments have vastly overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, and most of them don't come from Saudi Arabia, according to a new report from the Washington-based Center for Strategic International Studies (CSIS). According to a piece in The Guardian, this means the US and Iraq "feed the myth" that foreign fighters are the backbone of the insurgency. While the foreign fighters may stoke the insurgency flames, they make up only about 4 to 10 percent of the estimated 30,000 insurgents."

4 to 10 percent of the insurgents are from outside of Iraq... and since we KNOW for a fact that there was no Al Quida in Iraq prior to the US invasion of Iraq, because you know, ..

Ok, 4 to 10 percent of 30,000. That is a pretty big number jump. So I do question the percentages. I never said that none of the people in Iraq do not like us being there. Some do not trust us as we went in there before and did not show resolve and pulled out leaving them holding the bag.

There are people in the US that would like to see our government become socialistic/communistic, religious state, what have you so I would expect similar decent ion within Iraq. The difference now is that everyone has a chance to vote which is a good thing IMHO.

So if you are looking for me to concede that some of the people don't like us there, I concede but that does not add up to we should not be there and we need to pull out now. IMHO. That is the debate. It is obvious by the poll people on the CSC do not have any staying power and want to pull out. They are entitled to that opinion just as I am entitled to mine and to you, yours. The difference being, I do not call you stupid for having an opinion.

Iraq is now a democracy. Live it, breath it, and get over it. We are there, because Saddam did not give into inspections and we had reports from previous administrations that he was a threat, yes even from Clinton. Is Saddam would have given in to inspections, we would not be there.

The topic is do we pull out now. I say no for the simple reason Iraq deserves to be a democracy and rule in the it sees fit. It can do that by voting in who they want. They did not have that choice before and now they do.

Because of different religious factions there may be a civil war. The US had one and to expect Iraq to not have problems is unrealistic.

[R1chie]

The way Richie put it made it sound as though one life doesn't mean anything or means very little because there are so many that had died. !

That is crap, both you and Kanabiss both try to put words in my mouth and read too much into my post. If you knew me, you would know better. Brizz knows me and he knows better, but he is just mad because he called himself a friend of mine but did not act like it so no more relationship. Now Townie who he hated before is now his best bud. What ever. He never gave us his opinion whether we should bring the troops home. I am still waiting.

[pilot]

I just want to say thanks to all the members who have been voicing their opinion. As stated by others, we may disagree, but we at least can voice our disagreement (at least for today).

[xxuxx]

I'm with knight..let's nuke em!!!!:nuke::nuke:

[Bassil Duwaik]

That is crap, both you and Kanabiss both try to put words in my mouth and read too much into my post. If you knew me, you would know better. Brizz knows me and he knows better, but he is just mad because he called himself a friend of mine but did not act like it so no more relationship. Now Townie who he hated before is now his best bud. What ever. He never gave us his opinion whether we should bring the troops home. I am still waiting.

I'm simply stated it the way I had interrupted it. You and I can both agree that the way you said it was as if human life is expendable. Perhaps that wasn't your intention. As far as this thread goes...I'm not getting into the he said she said stuff but let's leave it as just a thread and it's nothing personal, talk is cheap. I'm up for going on another ride with you, again it's nothing personal (as long as you ride in front of me, still a little worried about that one time...a long time ago).

Yeah, yeah das wha I'm talkin about!! let's go get Osama!!! I hate osama....is he related ot obama?? hmmm...they're both muslim...I wonder??!!

Muslim? I'm a muslim, what does that mean? Am I suppose to be related to Osama...I wish I was being that he's got millions on his head for I would LOVE to turn him in and perhaps do something that bush doesn't seem to be capable or willing to do! That guy is a murderer and he should be punished number one priority!!! Esp when he claims to be a part of my religion (muslim) and puts it to shame.

[Brizz]

That is crap, both you and Kanabiss both try to put words in my mouth and read too much into my post. If you knew me, you would know better. Brizz knows me and he knows better, but he is just mad because he called himself a friend of mine but did not act like it so no more relationship. Now Townie who he hated before is now his best bud. What ever. He never gave us his opinion whether we should bring the troops home. I am still waiting.
Keep waiting..Im not gonna give some one who knows jack shit the chance to try and challenge me. Ive done my contribution to this world, not just suck air up in it.

Oh and thank you EVERYONE else for your words of encouragement..


PS Rich you did me a favor by not being my friend.. PPL actually talk to me now.

Townie and crew you guys ROCK..Keep up the good work. Remember you can lead a jackass to water but you cant make him drink...~cough Rich, cough~

[vmax2003]

Keep waiting..Im not gonna give some one who knows jack shit the chance to try and challenge me. Ive done my contribution to this world, not just suck air up in it.

Oh and thank you EVERYONE else for your words of encouragement..


PS Rich you did me a favor by not being my friend.. PPL actually talk to me now.

Townie and crew you guys ROCK..Keep up the good work. Remember you can lead a jackass to water but you cant make him drink...~cough Rich, cough~
:bananna::guns: Brizz:slap: Rich

[Kanabiis]

Ok, 4 to 10 percent of 30,000. That is a pretty big number jump. So I do question the percentages.

Of course, you doubt anything that doesnt fit into your world view... I bring you facts, you bring me speculation.

I give up, I dont know what other facts to present to you, I quote the president, I quote a number of CONSERVATIVE think tanks who have studied the situation and have been in Iraq. I quote you journalists who have studied, and yet you STILL call them liberal shills, or worse, someone who wants to destroy this country.

Whatever Ritchie, what facts other then a graph with death counts have you shown to back up your points? None..

You want to continue to stick your fingers in your ears and scream LA LA LA all you want, but the facts are the facts whether you want to deal with them or not is your problem.

[D-Man]

You dont think I know this? Its also the responsibility to use that tool with the utmost of care, and respect. Soldiers and their commanding officers have an unspoken bond, that the commanding officer will not put that soldier in harms way for an unjust, or untrue cause.

George Bush has failed his troops, every troop that dies in Iraq dies for OIL and for a vendetta, NOT for my freedom...

That is a crime..... and I am outraged over it...

I think we all agree that the opinions of those that are fighting are important. I would like to know from those of who are are serving or have served what you think of this comment above from Kanabiis. That you and your friends have died for OIL and a vendetta. Not for freedom or democracy. Do you believe that?

[vmax2003]

Ha way too simple..But heres another side of the coin. If we thake teh muslum magnet away from Iraq. And bring it home then what? Id rather fight around the world then in my backyard.

Well I am of the same opinion as Brizz, as we both have been deployed here overseas. I believe that we took out Saddam to prevent human deaths that he was doing to his people during his term of power. Maybe that was not the main reason., but taking him was the best thing to do cause i feel we would be fighting this same kind of stuff in our own yard which would be a diaster. Its already bad enough we have shootings in our schools and bombings going on here we dont need this type of stuff as well. KEEP IT OFF U.S. SOIL.....

[R1chie]

Of course, you doubt anything that doesnt fit into your world view... I bring you facts, you bring me speculation.

I give up, I dont know what other facts to present to you, I quote the president, I quote a number of CONSERVATIVE think tanks who have studied the situation and have been in Iraq. I quote you journalists who have studied, and yet you STILL call them liberal shills, or worse, someone who wants to destroy this country.

Whatever Ritchie, what facts other then a graph with death counts have you shown to back up your points? None..

You want to continue to stick your fingers in your ears and scream LA LA LA all you want, but the facts are the facts whether you want to deal with them or not is your problem.

Not ignoring anything. I looked at your info and thought that you made a good point but it is not going to change my opinion. The only way we could stop this debate is for me to agree with you and I don't and I am not putting my fingers in my ears. We are there and to back out now would be a mistake IMHO. Yours is different. I do wish you would quit trying to put words in my mouth though. As for posting up facts that support my opinion, I have done that in the past, not worth my time anymore because you have your opinion and I won't be able to change it, not that I need to.

As for Brizz, your back stabbing the in the Brizz (a secrect forum on the CSC that only allows people Brizz lets in)play place behind members backs let me know the real you and frankly I am glad you let me in to find out you and the people who slam people on a daily basis are not people that I want associate with. If those are the people who start talking to you because I no longer what to hang with you and put up with that crap, then you can keep them. I prefer to debate with Kanabiss, at least he will say it to my face in open forum, instead of like you behind a hidden forum where you bash people behind their back. You never stated your opinion, probably because it is an unpopular one, but that is ok too because having an opinion for or against or no opinion and being able to state that without the government hauling you awas is one of the thing freedom is all about. Though I appreciate that you risk your life for our country and the people of Iraq, you still do things that caused us to no longer be "friends". The only jackass on this board is the spoiled child with his own hidden forum who trashes people behind their backs. Not even man enough to tell them to their face. Continue to live in your little dream world, I will have no part of it.

[Nick_Ninja]

<snip>The only way we could stop this debate is ....................................... <snip>


To lock the fuckin thread down :down:

[Bigrich12]

Well, I try to keep my mouth shut, but I feel as though everyone needs some random facts that I have recently heard to maybe open their eyes up a little bit. My father is in the military and we recently started talking about the war and I originally thought that we should just leave the country. He told me that he would proudly die for his country irregardless of the reason. He said that when he enlisted he knew that there may be a war and that one day he might have to go fight in it. But he said that is a part of his job and he would do whatever he needed to do to protect his families freedom. In his opinion, every soldier that enlisted or reenlisted after 9/11 knew that this could have happened and that everyone knew what the consequences would be. As for everybody that says that the Iraqis don't want us there, there was an article in the Gazzette this week and it was about a discussion between Bill Ritter (I think) and a group of Iraqi school children that were here on a visit. The official's view had been publicized about the troops in Iraq and he said that we should leave as soon as possible. Well, the Iraqi chiuldren had a lot of animosity towards him because he did not know exactly what goes on over there. They said that yes things are bad now, but if the military were to leave, it would be a whole lot worse. So, I may not be in the military and I may have never been in Iraq, but the opinion of people that are from there matters to me and if they appreciate us being there then that should sway some people's opinions.
As for all the troops dying in Iraq, I feel sorrow for their families and the friends that they left behind. I hope this will lead the thread to going back to the original discussion of whether we should leave Iraq or stay in.

[xxuxx]

I must say, I have always enjoyed R1chies posts! He is truly patriotic and he loves his country. Just because some guy named "Brizz" is over there serving his 3rd term, doesn't give him superiority in his take on the war; insight maybe but remember he is collecting a paycheck and was ordered to go there, he is in short, just a pawn. This club needs more people who think like R1chie!

[Bigrich12]

I agree. R1chie always voices his opinion and tells people exactly what he thinks. I would probably post up more often on topivs like such, but I see how people change the meaning of what he is trying to say and then the attacks begin. I wouldn't put up with it, unlike R1chie, and then I would cause problems and that is not what I'm here for.

[Nick_Ninja]

Well, I try to keep my mouth shut, but I feel as though everyone needs some random facts that I have recently heard to maybe open their eyes up a little bit. My father is in the military and we recently started talking about the war and I originally thought that we should just leave the country. He told me that he would proudly die for his country irregardless of the reason. He said that when he enlisted he knew that there may be a war and that one day he might have to go fight in it. But he said that is a part of his job and he would do whatever he needed to do to protect his families freedom. In his opinion, every soldier that enlisted or reenlisted after 9/11 knew that this could have happened and that everyone knew what the consequences would be. As for everybody that says that the Iraqis don't want us there, there was an article in the Gazzette this week and it was about a discussion between Bill Ritter (I think) and a group of Iraqi school children that were here on a visit. The official's view had been publicized about the troops in Iraq and he said that we should leave as soon as possible. Well, the Iraqi chiuldren had a lot of animosity towards him because he did not know exactly what goes on over there. They said that yes things are bad now, but if the military were to leave, it would be a whole lot worse. So, I may not be in the military and I may have never been in Iraq, but the opinion of people that are from there matters to me and if they appreciate us being there then that should sway some people's opinions.
As for all the troops dying in Iraq, I feel sorrow for their families and the friends that they left behind. I hope this will lead the thread to going back to the original discussion of whether we should leave Iraq or stay in.

I say PULL THE FUCK OUT NOW. We have SHOT OUR WAD and the situation will never reconcile itself with us there or without us there. You have a population that has been at odds with one another for thousands of years --- let them have at it. You have a faction of that population (Sunnis) that refuses to cooperate with the so-called government ----- let me rephrase that ---- the so-called Bush Administration contrived puppet government.

Here is a quote from CIA stooge Gates this morning (08/05/2007) on NBC Meet The Press:


SEC’Y GATES: Well, there’s no question that it’s disappointing that the Sunnis have, have left the government. Some of the ministers, such as the minister of defense, who’s a Sunni, have remained in place. But their inability to reconcile among themselves at this national level, and, and to get some of this legislation passed clearly is, is disappointing and, and, therefore, makes some of the positive developments outside of Baghdad or outside of the national political arena more interesting.


There is NO WAY IN HELL that a government - By The People --- For The People ------------- well I'm sure that you get that snippet, especially the patriotic useful idiots here in this thread.

This thread needs to be published out on the FOX Snooze Netwack. It's really (un)balanced :down:.

[mtnairlover]

Um...someone wanted to hear what the soldiers had to say...ok...

Support the Troops Oppose the Policy
Veterans against the Iraq War
http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php

Iraq Veterans Against the War
http://www.ivaw.org/faq

Breaking Ranks
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/11/10_400.html

When Hoffman arrived in Kuwait in February 2003, his unit’s highest-ranking enlisted man laid out the mission in stark terms. “You’re not going to make Iraq safe for democracy,” the sergeant said. “You are going for one reason alone: oil. But you’re still going to go, because you signed a contract. And you’re going to go to bring your friends home.” Hoffman, who had his own doubts about the war, was relieved—he’d never expected to hear such a candid assessment from a superior. But it was only when he had been in Iraq for several months that the full meaning of the sergeant’s words began to sink in.

“The reasons for war were wrong,” he says. “They were lies. There were no WMDs. Al Qaeda was not there. And it was evident we couldn’t force democracy on people by force of arms.”...more here... (http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/11/10_400.html)

U.S. War Heroes of the Iraq War
War Resisters from within the Military
http://www.tomjoad.org/WarHeroes.htm

Active-duty troops call for an end to the occupation
Voices of soldiers against the war
http://www.socialistworker.org/2006-2/608/608_08_Soldiers.shtml

An Appeal for Redress from the War in Iraq
http://www.appealforredress.org/

US SOLDIERS AGAINST IRAQ WAR SEEKING WAY OUT
Casualties of Conscience
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,468740,00.html

US soldiers turn against Iraq war
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4850000/newsid_4859400/bb_wm_4859458.stm

Trying to find soldiers "for" the war, but came upon this...
http://www.iraqwarnews.net/

Fallen Soldier Bike
http://fallensoldierbike.blogspot.com/

Soldiers Once ... And Young
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/20140/

...from the above link...

After serving a 12-month tour of duty in Iraq last year, Marine Lance Corporal Jeff Lucey returned home to his relieved family with no injuries – or at least none that were visible. “When we didn’t see him tremendously traumatized when he returned, we thought, 'Oh, thank god,'” says his father, Kevin Lucey. “And then it exploded.”

For months the 23-year-old battled his wartime demons; nightmares, bouts of depression and anxiety, and crushing guilt – classic symptoms of acute post-traumatic stress.

“He told me he was a murderer,” says Jeff’s sister, Debra. “He said, 'Don’t you understand? Your brother’s a murderer.’”

On June 22, 2004, Jeff Lucey lost his battle. He hanged himself from a rafter in the cellar of his family home.

Sometimes, it's the bloggers who can tell the tale better...
Iraq Today
Take a look at the Iraqi Death Estimator on this blog
http://warnewstoday.blogspot.com/index.html



PS...or, do your own Google search;-)

[Bigrich12]

I truthfully don't care that much because I have a lot better things to do than to bicker back and forth to people i don't even know. I was just trying to give some personal insight to others. But i appreciate you care so much about me that you went and did all that research. Thanx, really.

[mtnairlover]

Oh, one more blog. This one is from an Iraqi woman. I don't care if it doesn't matter to anyone. It matters to me.

An Arab Woman Blues - Reflections Sealed in a Bottle... (http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.com/)

[The Black Knight]

I would probably post up more often on topivs like such, but I see how people change the meaning of what he is trying to say and then the attacks begin.

The thing is BigRich you should post up more often. Because it's the fact that someone somewhere might just get what you're trying to say. And that is worth it's weight in gold. If you can get your point across and be able to help shed light on any kind of matter, no matter what it is. Then speak your mind. Because things always get resolved better and quicker when you have more minds with ideas to throw around.

Yeah it gets old and tired when someone has to crack you for something you say. It gets old hearing the same thing from the same people. The fact that they try and jam you with insults and crack you for speaking your mind and throwing in your opinions is worth it. The fact that they get either mad or irritated at what you say is great because that's impact. Whether it's a positive or negative it's a impact nontheless. Because one day sometime down the road they will either grow up and converse with you objectively and professionally or they won't at all. Either way it doesn't matter because it's the people that don't say anything to you that you may make a difference to. You may be able to lend a different point of view that no one has yet mentioned or thought about.

So I wouldn't worry about the way someone changes your words. People will manipulate something you say just to benefit their cause. You can't change that in life and if that's what fires someone's rockets then I guess that's what gets them off. The name calling will always happen. Just laugh if off and rise above it...

[Bigrich12]

I appreciate it Black Knight, but I'm 20 years old and I know i am immature and i have a bad temper. On one side i do want to speak my mind because i do stay on top of politics and this countries important issues, but my bad temper usually gets the best of me and I will end up wanting to kick somebody's ass if they talk shit. That is not what I want to happen, so if i can keep my temper under control maybe i will voice my opinion because everyone that knows me knows i have a lot to say and love to talk/debate. I don't like to create enemies through name calling. But, i will really take what you said into consideration because i like my voice to be heard.

[clustermagnet]

hey Rich,...When were you in? When have you served..? WAIT you sit in your house and bitch..Hmm point made...I think these ppl have been asking nicely for you to shut the fuck up..GET A HINT!!!!

Love ya townie!

xoxo

[Kanabiis]

I must say, I have always enjoyed R1chies posts! He is truly patriotic and he loves his country. Just because some guy named "Brizz" is over there serving his 3rd term, doesn't give him superiority in his take on the war; insight maybe but remember he is collecting a paycheck and was ordered to go there, he is in short, just a pawn. This club needs more people who think like R1chie!

Can you say SARCASM lol....

:hump:

[clustermagnet]

I must say, I have always enjoyed R1chies posts! He is truly patriotic and he loves his country. Just because some guy named "Brizz" is over there serving his 3rd term, doesn't give him superiority in his take on the war; insight maybe but remember he is collecting a paycheck and was ordered to go there, he is in short, just a pawn. This club needs more people who think like R1chie!

ahha

[clustermagnet]

So you think a dictator who imposes his will on the people is better?

American democracy has its faults no doubt, but it is the best system we have in the world today IMHO. Lowest unemployment rate for a country this size, more freedom (yes it is dwindling away only because people vote our rights away), more prosperity, more of just about everything. Now Iraq will have the chance to have the same thing and maybe learn from our mistakes. Maybe not but IMHO it is a better that what they had before. Only the people in power wanted to continue with Iraq with Saddam in power. I cannot speak for the rest of the people in Iraq, but neither can you but I bet if we both lived there under the same conditions they did and knew about democracy and voting, we would choose it over a dictatorship.

"There was only a small minority that wanted democracy for Iraq and