wiretapping galore

[clustermagnet]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0806/p99s04-duts.html

Chime in ppl :banghead:

[clustermagnet]

you guys must have seen / adored the movie... animal house...

remember Neidermeyer? (not you r1ch)... the guy was getting trampled by a stampede of the people at the parade, you know the last scene? He's shouting "ALL IS WELL" :)

Thats what i keep chanting about this...

ALL IS WELL

REMAIN CALM

[clustermagnet]

along with this shit...http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aKMF7QaA.40U&refer=home

[Mental]

Eh, it's OK, no one was using their civil liberties anyway. For that matter, as I also read on a bumper sticker; If Iraq needs a Constitution, we can give them ours, since we're not using it.

[Kanabiis]

Eh, it's OK, no one was using their civil liberties anyway. For that matter, as I also read on a bumper sticker; If Iraq needs a Constitution, we can give them ours, since we're not using it.

+1 :siesta:

I always love the 'well if your not doing anything wrong, why worry' argument... just waiting for it to hit this thread....

Who cares about privacy these days anyway right?

[clustermagnet]

hA! should have made a poll look like "is r1chie doing anything wrong"

:)

[636Chick]

bumper sticker; If Iraq needs a Constitution, we can give them ours, since we're not using it.

OK I just Freakin blew water out my nose that was funny as hell!

Could yu give a girl a little warnig before you post something like that!!!!!

[clustermagnet]

:)

seriously upsetting times..

ALL IS WELL!

ya right... our news are reporting of tits in the neighbors yard... but little is said of this nazi shit

REMAIN CALM!

[rforsythe]

Well of course they extended it. Can't trample all over the rights of your citizens if you have to deal with the annoyance of getting approval for it all the time, now can you?

[Kanabiis]

So far, in debating this all morning on other forums, it seems that the lines are very cleanly drawn.

Anyone still supporting the Bush administration is in favor of this, anyone in opposition is not...

In spirit of not letting this drag into a bash Bush thread, and those on the Far Far right coming in and claiming that this is just another 'liberal media' attempt to bash Bush..

I will ask everyone to set aside their political differences and ask themselves.. is this a power that they would want their political enemies to have?

For all those of you who will come in here and support Bush, let me ask you, if Hillary or Obama were to win the presidency tomorrow, would you feel comfortable with them having the power to wiretap an American citizens phone without any judicial oversight?

That is always the question you have to ask yourself.... do you want your political enemy to have the power you just granted?

Any time you can answer no to that question, is a time when you stop towing the party line, and start the protest.

[Snowman]

Can’t one of you IT types hack into one of those hidden AT&T rooms where they are tapping into the entire internet and setup a wireless network thingy so I can play my online games at higher speeds?

[mtnairlover]

Wish I could comment without added emotion to this particular question. It has to do with an incident a coupla years ago, my cell phone, my e-mail account and a geeky guardsman. That kinda stuff happens all the time, though...at least where my geekish students are concerned. I've had plenty of kids in the past who have hacked accounts, etc. to find out what their rivals/enemies/friends are up to...or just to see if they could do it.

Soooo...that's what happens with that kinda power and other things can happen as well. What I'm saying is that it isn't just the government listening in. But, is it right?

[clustermagnet]

speaking of the devil :D

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292184,00.html

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I've got nothing to hide. Do you honestly think they'd waste time on any of us? I don't LIKE it, but this is the world we live in now with these fucking terrorists. Think I couldn't tap into all your cell or cordless phones if I wanted to? My buddy, and electronics whiz with a Class 3 FCC license and Ham radio outfit made up a scanner and could hear EVERYTHING anyone said on cordless or cell for maybe 1/2 mile. Think that hasn't been going on all along? Got a bridge to sell you....oh, wait, it fell into the river.....nevermind.....:oops:

[rforsythe]

I've got nothing to hide. Do you honestly think they'd waste time on any of us? I don't LIKE it, but this is the world we live in now with these fucking terrorists.

Hook..... line..... and sinker.

[R1chie]

And the reason they do it is because they have computers listening. Those computers look for key words, if they hear one, than conversation is marked then a human listens to it and they determine if it is terrorist activity. Without it computers cannot listen.

The reason it does not violate your rights is because they cannot use it against you in court. But if you were involved in terrorist activity, they then could get a court order, wiretap legally then use it against you. That is my understanding of how it works anyway. I don't like it either but do you let terrorists use our telephones and cellular towers against us? Glad I don't have to make those decisions.

[rforsythe]

Rich - under the Patriot Act, they don't need any legally-standing information to imprison you secretly and indefinitely. You must realize that the point isn't to put you in jail, but to make you disclose all the dirty little secrets you know. The goal is not prison time, it is annihilation of the enemy. Legal standing in court only matters if you actually intend on taking someone through the public legal system; terrorists (and suspected terrorists) are prosecuted under secret courts, without the benefit of due process.

[Kanabiis]

And the reason they do it is because they have computers listening. Those computers look for key words, if they hear one, than conversation is marked then a human listens to it and they determine if it is terrorist activity. Without it computers cannot listen.

The reason it does not violate your rights is because they cannot use it against you in court. But if you were involved in terrorist activity, they then could get a court order, wiretap legally then use it against you. That is my understanding of how it works anyway. I don't like it either but do you let terrorists use our telephones and cellular towers against us? Glad I don't have to make those decisions.

Wow, just wow, I'm not even going to debate this.....

With apathy like this, you deserve the government you get....

I'm wondering how many of your civil liberties your willing to give up before you stand up for your rights as an American citizen....

I'm thinking that it will be right around the first amendment...

10th amendment... shit, most Americans dont even know what it was, let alone cared when that amendment was shit canned.

9th went away when affirmative action was reaffirmed by the Supreme court.

8th LMAO, cruel and unusual punishment... I'm pretty sure I know where you stand on torturing Gitmo detainees.....

7th trial by jury of your peers..... unless your a terrorist, right Jose Padilla? Right?? Whats that you say, you cant talk Mr. Padilla cuz youv'e been in prison without trial for 5 years now??

6th right to a speedy trial.... lets just differ to the testimony of our star witness Mr. Jose Padilla once again for the record....

5th right for the government not to be able to cause you or your property any jeopardy without grand jury, and due process, and right not to incriminate yourself. (one of the more complex rights in the bill of rights) was lost July 19th, when Bush signed the newest executive order (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html), enabling the government to seize assets if they believe you have aided terrorists. Key word here, believe, not prove, believe.. read it for yourself, I linked directly to the order on the White House's website, not some liberal media rag.

4th right, to be secure in your person, houses, and effects from unreasonable search and seizure. One could argue, this new wiretapping law directly violates the 4th amendment, unreasonable search, listening to my conversation without my knowledge or consent could reasonably be argued is unreasonable search.

3rd right to not be forced to quarter military soldiers... Of 7 rights listed so far, the only one not actively being violated by the government... wow.

2nd right to bear arms... this fight was lost long ago as well, brady bill, etc. etc. they havent taken EVERYONES gun yet... but goddamnit they want to in a very bad way..... in the 80s it was for the children, and we got the assault weapons ban because well, a guy COULD shoot up a school with an Uzi, nobody ever DID, but someone COULD HAVE, lets just be safe ok, in the 90s it was to curb gang violence and we got the brady bill, now, its to keep the weapons out of the Terrorists hands. Let me tell you bang up job we are doing on that front. 200k missing AK-47s in Iraq, and they are concerned about people buying weapons from legitimate arms dealers here in America.... its so absurd its comical, if it wasn't totally effecting my rights as an American I would probably be laughing.

1st right to pray to your toilet if you fucking want to.... the second on a list of 10 rights that haven't been taken, yet. kinda.... sorta.... in a if your not David Koresh, or some other fundamentalist survival fringe Christian group way.

Wow, writing that all out, I just came to a realization, that bill of rights thing really kinda gets in the way of fighting the war on Terrorism. Wow, so supporting the Constitution is almost like, supporting the terrorists...

Well shit, I mean nobody likes terrorists, you know...

Fuck the constitution, its obvious, if we let the constitution stand, then the terrorists win......

[mtnairlover]

Wow...

[clustermagnet]

you guys, i dont mind anyone listening in, i have nothing to hide... HOWEVER

there must be a system in place to check validity of wtf they are doing!

I have nothing to hide, however the next presidential candidate MAY have sensitive information, which he does not want to disclose to an opposing party...

come on... think!

[Filo]

Will the following people please report to my office:
Snowman
Cathy
Ralph
Kanabiis
Clustermagnet
Mental

I have a flower for your lapel I would like you to wear. Don't worry, it doesn't mean anything. Just wear it. Oh, and you guys need to step over here. Just go into this room right here. Don't worry about anything. We have everything under control. Your family is waiting for you on the other side.


OK, so maybe the comparison to the Nazis (for those who didn't pick up on it) is extreme, but fascism is a one step at a time kind of process. As long as you think the end justifies the means, they maintain control. Frank says he has nothing to hide, but that assumes that todays laws will be tomorrows laws. Maybe tomorrow it will be illegal to proudly display your Italian heritage.

Carry on, nothing to see here. I understand there is a sale at Best Buy. Hurry out now for complete fulfillment.

[dm_gsxr]

Nope. I got nothing to hide either but I don't want them knowing that.

I'd rather there be some due process than just Bill down at the FBI surfing the e-mail for interesting tidbits. I'm starting to think I should be adding those keywords I used to see on Usenet 15 years ago.

ALLAH Al-QUEDA BOMBS TERROR PLOTS AIRPLANES RITALAN ADD THINK OF THE CHILDREN FERTILIZER DIESEL

*knock* *knock* Hold on, there's someone at the door.......

[636Chick]

Just asking a question here....

OK so say I use those words in a conversation, whatever the trigger words are, what do I go on a listen list or will a Coupe de Ville start following me around.

I agree I don't really want anyone listening to my conversations but as an ordinary citzen how much fear do I really have with them listening in on me. Or for that matter maybe they record everyone but I imagine I will be dead before anyone gets a chance to listen to it.

[PhotoMotard]

The chair is against the wall... the chair is against the wall...
John has a black mustache... John has a black mustache...

Name that movie for +3

We wouldn't have to worry about half of this shit if we had real border controls and a real immigration policy... and no, I'm not pickin on the Mexican trying to feed his family. We have other borders and points of access also. I'm not even gonna go to the ports question.

Thanks for ruining my Tuesday.

Robb

[dirkterrell]

I agree I don't really want anyone listening to my conversations but as an ordinary citzen how much fear do I really have with them listening in on me.

It's not a matter of whether one has a fear of their listening or whether one has anything to hide. This kind of behavior by the government sets a dangerous precedent. As Filo points out, it's a slippery slope to be on when all they have to do is declare some seemingly benign activity as being a threat to public safety, making you the next danger to the American public. This kind of behavior runs so counter to the way we have quite successfully operated in the past that it scares me more than the terrorists frankly. And yeah, I've heard all of the stuff about how this enemy requires a different approach, yada yada yada, but I don't buy it. Read your history. Instilling fear of some outside threat and disarming the population is the first step in the descent to totalitarianism. I fear governments much more than I fear terrorists.

Dirk

[mclarke]

The chair is against the wall... the chair is against the wall...
John has a black mustache... John has a black mustache...

Name that movie for +3

We wouldn't have to worry about half of this shit if we had real border controls and a real immigration policy... and no, I'm not pickin on the Mexican trying to feed his family. We have other borders and points of access also. I'm not even gonna go to the ports question.

Thanks for ruining my Tuesday.

Robb

ill take red dawn for +3

[Kanabiis]

Just asking a question here....

OK so say I use those words in a conversation, whatever the trigger words are, what do I go on a listen list or will a Coupe de Ville start following me around.

I agree I don't really want anyone listening to my conversations but as an ordinary citzen how much fear do I really have with them listening in on me. Or for that matter maybe they record everyone but I imagine I will be dead before anyone gets a chance to listen to it.

Well, if the current lawsuit that was thrown out of court is any indication, the information that AT&T provided the US government consisted of potentially ALL of their customers.

Two AT&T customers sued the US government when word came out about the illegal wiretapping, unfortunately, since the wiretapping was done in secret, there was no way that the plaintiffs could prove that they were wiretapped. So, the judge had no choice but to drop the lawsuit, however in his briefing stated that the wiretapping was of grave concern to the liberties of the citizens of the Untied States.

Which of course is the driving point of this, if there are no records, and there is no oversight, then how exactly in this 'FREE' country of ours can we be assured that we are NOT being spied on?

Its a sad state when the government has more in common with the N. Korea and the Soviet Union then the Constitution it was founded on.

The thing is, these laws were put in place precisely because officers of the Government were abusing power, and building files on people to use as political leverage. J Edgar Hoover, FBI director for over 44 years kept secret files on hundreds of thousands of American citizens, which Joseph Mcarthy used during his anti-communist crusade.

These files were filled with all kinds of things, what the person ate, who their friends were, what movies and music they listened to, their political views, etc. etc. This spying program was even given a name, Cointelpro, and was used illegally to gather information about political enemies, things such as affairs, illegitimate children, etc.

Does anyone here really think that it's ok for the US government to keep secret files on their citizens? Files that can be used against you should you ever decide to heaven forbid, dissent against government rule?

Wait, dont answer that, some of you are closet fascists, hell bent on insuring that everyone fucks the biblically approved way, or isint into too taboo of fetishes.... which I think is sick and disturbing truthfully.....

[rforsythe]

We wouldn't have to worry about half of this shit if we had real border controls and a real immigration policy...

Riiiight.

Russia had (and still has, to a somewhat lesser extent) border and immigration control so tight you could stick coal up it and get a diamond. Their government also has a long and glorious history of wiretapping their citizens, "disappearing" people in the middle of the night who are perceived as a "threat", and flexing their military nuts around the world.

We are a younger country and have less time in the saddle, but a lot of other regimes we think we are better than, began just the way we are now. I'm not posting some conspiracy theory, just an observation of history and how it relates to the present. Anyone is free to sit comfy in their chair at home if they like, getting their daily dose of reality TV and ads for everything, and believe the similarities aren't there (or that they are, but you and your rights actually matter to someone with the power to take them for personal gain). Believe what you like. Believe what you're told. You have nothing to hide, so you must have nothing to lose. Behave, Believe, Comply.

Every fascist nation had one thing in common - their people were sheep when it came time to do something before it was too late to resolve it by any other means than violence.

[Kanabiis]

ill take red dawn for +3

Damnit.... i was writing out a long thought out post, so I didnt even get to participate... :)

Red Dawn is one of my all time favorite movies..... simply a badass movie

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Hook..... line..... and sinker.
I repeat, I've got nothing to hide. As was described by a military guy, these are the kind of "people" (I use that term VERY loosely) that would chew thru the wires of the plane they were on just to bring it down if they could. Against an enemy willing to do whatever it takes to do ANY damage to us, what else can we do? Forewarned is forearmed. Everybody was bitching we didn't know about 9-11 before it happened and wanna just mindlessly bash Bush (thought they should be bashing Klinton who destroyed our intelligence agencies BEFORE Bush took office), now these same people are bitching because we're trying to do something about it?!?!?!?! Get real.......

You think you don't leave a trail of what music you steal from the internet or what political views you spew on public forums like this? If they wanted all this info, well fellas, HERE it is. No need for wiretapping.

Torture? Get real. It's discomfort. Ask those who spent time in Saddam's prisons what REAL torture is.....

[mclarke]

its ok Kanabiis, next time we get gather the movie, some alcoholic beverages, and all of our socialist reading materials then give it a watch

[Filo]

OK, so it is cliche and overused, but here it is anyway (one version of the Martin Niemoller poem)

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrat,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

[D-Man]

I don't like it but, until Hillary is elected and fixes all of the nations problems, I think it is necessary to prevent another 9-11 catastrophe.
An unfortunate circumstance of the world we live in.
This is truly the difference between the liberals and the conservatives.
I don't think it has to do with actual political affiliation, just where your priorities lie. Mine lie in stopping terrorism before violating a criminals rights.

[Kanabiis]

I repeat, I've got nothing to hide. As was described by a military guy, these are the kind of "people" (I use that term VERY loosely) that would chew thru the wires of the plane they were on just to bring it down if they could. Against an enemy willing to do whatever it takes to do ANY damage to us, what else can we do? Forewarned is forearmed. Everybody was bitching we didn't know about 9-11 before it happened and wanna just mindlessly bash Bush (thought they should be bashing Klinton who destroyed our intelligence agencies BEFORE Bush took office), now these same people are bitching because we're trying to do something about it?!?!?!?! Get real.......

You think you don't leave a trail of what music you steal from the internet or what political views you spew on public forums like this? If they wanted all this info, well fellas, HERE it is. No need for wiretapping.

Torture? Get real. It's discomfort. Ask those who spent time in Saddam's prisons what REAL torture is.....

Wait, tell me again how the terrorists are more of a threat then Nuclear warheads?

Cuz im kinda not getting it... we survived 40 years of the cold war with a country HELL BENT on destroying us, supposedly...

But thats not worse then some camel jockeys with razor blades?

I tell you what, I'll take my chances with the terrorists thank you very much rather then watch my government turn the United States into West Korea....

I expected more of you Cycle then to just roll over from fear of the terrorists.

Jesus, Americans are bitches, a bunch of pussiefied Paris Hilton worshiping pussies.... but hey, as long as you get your American Idol right? Who gives a fuck about freedom when there are terrorists around right, right... :scream2:

Like I said before, you deserve the government you get.... when the shit really starts hitting the fan, and it will, maybe not tomorrow, but it is coming. When that shit hits the fan, I will be proud, god damn proud to know that I didnt roll over, I didnt fucking just take it lying down....

So Cycle, I am quite curious, how many of your rights are you willing to sell out to fear?

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


-Pastor Martin Niemöller

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

[PhotoMotard]

MClarke,

How at 25 years old did you come across the movie? Kanabiis has some years on you so I get that.

I saw it in the theater a couple of times and yes, it was great. It was a career starter for many young - now famous actors.

Back to the thread - I'm not looking forward to the government knowing everywhere I am a la "Minority report"... but it's coming.

Just look at the fucking cameras at the traffic intersections everywhere and "OnStar" at your service.

I may need an eye transplant to be able to remain incognito.

Robb





ill take red dawn for +3

[636Chick]

I don't like it but, until Hillary is elected and fixes all of the nations problems,



5,4,3,2,1.......................:boom:


Kanibas is in the house Bawahaha........


J/K carry on but not to loud you never know who is listenin!!!!!

[Kanabiis]

I don't like it but, until Hillary is elected and fixes all of the nations problems, I think it is necessary to prevent another 9-11 catastrophe.
An unfortunate circumstance of the world we live in.
This is truly the difference between the liberals and the conservatives.
I don't think it has to do with actual political affiliation, just where your priorities lie. Mine lie in stopping terrorism before violating a criminals rights.

I love it, are you really that scared of a little terrorist...

Hey guess what, in case you didnt notice, 10 out of 10 people die... the choice to die free or die in fear however is yours...

Me, I'll choose free any day of the week over fear.. thats the difference between me and you..

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security" - Benjamin Franklin

[Snowman]

To the question about sheep, if you believe you are sheep then you deserve to have your lives herded for you, all the way to the slaughter house. (The Lord is our Shepard, Ha I knew there that sounded funny when I heard it.) Even the church wants us to be sheep just like the terrorists are counting on.

However, I do not believe Americans are sheep.

Yes, we had very little idea that a 9/11 was going to happen. Nevertheless, you have to remember that when we did get and idea we did something about it. On flight 93 the passengers forced that plane into the ground. (Don’t care what the skeptics say they force the terrorists into the ground and to abandoned their primary target) It has even been reported that flight 11 passengers were in the process of taking the plane before it hit the tower.

I seriously doubt any terrorists will ever be able to take a plane for long without the passengers doing something to stop them.

This is the kind of Americans that we need to be about all our liberties, not just the right to live. Yes, it will cost lives but lives have been lost in any endeavor where the protection of freedoms is evolved.

I have no problem if terrorists try something here because I know the people closest to them will do what can be done to stop them even at the cost of their own lives. Given the scenario that if you saw a suicide bomber reaching for a cord, can anyone here say they wouldn’t throw themselves on them to cover the blast?

I for one will fight to not give up my civil liberties, weather it is to terrorists or this government. It is not theirs to take and only I can give it to them.

[dm_gsxr]

Yes, we had very little idea that a 9/11 was going to happen. Nevertheless, you have to remember that when we did get and idea we did something about it. On flight 93 the passengers forced that plane into the ground. (Don’t care what the skeptics say they force the terrorists into the ground and to abandoned their primary target) It has even been reported that flight 11 passengers were in the process of taking the plane before it hit the tower.

I seriously doubt any terrorists will ever be able to take a plane for long without the passengers doing something to stop them.


The difference is up to that point, hijackers took planes to Cuba or Libya or Syria or Uganda. So it was in the flyers' best interest to just be passive and wait until they were released or rescued. On 9/11 the terrorists had a different agenda. Once the folks on 93 realized what was in store, the yacted and I can believe the folks on 11 doing the same thing once they understood what was happening. The terrorists spoiled it for all the other hijackers. Now the guy who just wants a free ride to Libya will get tackled and beat.

Carl

[Kanabiis]

I'm not a fan of Clinton, however its interesting to note how well the 'liberal media' has clouded the minds of Americans... regarding the myth that NOBODY KNEW, thats just bullshit.

I mean, when you are handed a security strategy titled "Strategy for Eliminating the Threat from the Jihadist Networks of Al Qida: Status and Prospects (http://www.rawstory.com/images/clarkeatt.pdf)" I can see why noone wanted to actually read it, sounds pretty boring, especially since Harry Potter had just hit the shelves. That memo was handed to then National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice by the nations top anti-terrorism expert Richard Clarke the day she took over the office. Such a boring read that she left it on her desk for 2 years... and even testified that she had never even seen the document.

I guess its no shock that when another memo was handed to her titled 'Bin laden determined to strike the US (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/august6.memo/)' on August 6, 2002 that she again, had NO IDEA. I mean, just read the memo, its full of speculation and conjecture about hijackings and such. I mean, if I was handed a memo saying my neighboor planned on breaking into my house, possibly using my windows, I'd just ignore it and keep my windows unlocked, because I'm an idiot right?
NOOOO id fucking lock my windows.

Am I saying that the government could have prevented 9/11, I don't know, I dont have the answer to that.. however I DO KNOW that the government had enough forewarning to at least have formulated some sort of security plan, like, maybe preventing would be hijackers from gaining access to a cockpit. How about consulting with the Israelis about how they counter hijacking threats? Its a long shot I know, but instituting an FAA policy on airline cockpit doors wouldn't have attracted too much attention, but would have been a smart choice. Hell the Israelis have been doing that for 20 years......

[clustermagnet]

this has nothing to do with who the F is in charge, green party, red party, blue party, gay party, fascist party... this goes against the foundations

also, US KNEW about possible terrorist threats before 9-11, however bush ignored the shit just like he does any "fact" until it hits him in the face.

the real problem is that our foreign policy got us here. instead of fixing this problem, we try to patch it. will never work

[clustermagnet]

I don't like it but, until Hillary is elected and fixes all of the nations problems, I think it is necessary to prevent another 9-11 catastrophe.
An unfortunate circumstance of the world we live in.
This is truly the difference between the liberals and the conservatives.
I don't think it has to do with actual political affiliation, just where your priorities lie. Mine lie in stopping terrorism before violating a criminals rights.

nicely done... now do you care to elaborate how terrorist organizations form, and what might be the root causes of the hatered?

and what are the preferred ways of fighting terrorism... what is the most effective way, and what are the drawbacks...

you will soon realize that your particular views only dig a deeper hole

:banghead:

[clustermagnet]

I don't like it but, until Hillary is elected and fixes all of the nations problems, I think it is necessary to prevent another 9-11 catastrophe.
An unfortunate circumstance of the world we live in.
This is truly the difference between the liberals and the conservatives.
I don't think it has to do with actual political affiliation, just where your priorities lie. Mine lie in stopping terrorism before violating a criminals rights.

Have you ever heard of a movie, documentary ... called Loose Change?

Would you consider watching it, and giving it a serious thought?

It just seems to me that having your own opinion is perfectly OK, however, having a closed minded opinion has been well covered in planet of the apes...

[clustermagnet]

Wow, just wow, I'm not even going to debate this.....

With apathy like this, you deserve the government you get....

I'm wondering how many of your civil liberties your willing to give up before you stand up for your rights as an American citizen....

I'm thinking that it will be right around the first amendment...

10th amendment... shit, most Americans dont even know what it was, let alone cared when that amendment was shit canned.

9th went away when affirmative action was reaffirmed by the Supreme court.

8th LMAO, cruel and unusual punishment... I'm pretty sure I know where you stand on torturing Gitmo detainees.....

7th trial by jury of your peers..... unless your a terrorist, right Jose Padilla? Right?? Whats that you say, you cant talk Mr. Padilla cuz youv'e been in prison without trial for 5 years now??

6th right to a speedy trial.... lets just differ to the testimony of our star witness Mr. Jose Padilla once again for the record....

5th right for the government not to be able to cause you or your property any jeopardy without grand jury, and due process, and right not to incriminate yourself. (one of the more complex rights in the bill of rights) was lost July 19th, when Bush signed the newest executive order (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html), enabling the government to seize assets if they believe you have aided terrorists. Key word here, believe, not prove, believe.. read it for yourself, I linked directly to the order on the White House's website, not some liberal media rag.

4th right, to be secure in your person, houses, and effects from unreasonable search and seizure. One could argue, this new wiretapping law directly violates the 4th amendment, unreasonable search, listening to my conversation without my knowledge or consent could reasonably be argued is unreasonable search.

3rd right to not be forced to quarter military soldiers... Of 7 rights listed so far, the only one not actively being violated by the government... wow.

2nd right to bear arms... this fight was lost long ago as well, brady bill, etc. etc. they havent taken EVERYONES gun yet... but goddamnit they want to in a very bad way..... in the 80s it was for the children, and we got the assault weapons ban because well, a guy COULD shoot up a school with an Uzi, nobody ever DID, but someone COULD HAVE, lets just be safe ok, in the 90s it was to curb gang violence and we got the brady bill, now, its to keep the weapons out of the Terrorists hands. Let me tell you bang up job we are doing on that front. 200k missing AK-47s in Iraq, and they are concerned about people buying weapons from legitimate arms dealers here in America.... its so absurd its comical, if it wasn't totally effecting my rights as an American I would probably be laughing.

1st right to pray to your toilet if you fucking want to.... the second on a list of 10 rights that haven't been taken, yet. kinda.... sorta.... in a if your not David Koresh, or some other fundamentalist survival fringe Christian group way.

Wow, writing that all out, I just came to a realization, that bill of rights thing really kinda gets in the way of fighting the war on Terrorism. Wow, so supporting the Constitution is almost like, supporting the terrorists...

Well shit, I mean nobody likes terrorists, you know...

Fuck the constitution, its obvious, if we let the constitution stand, then the terrorists win......

aparently nobody tries to counter the obvious....

[pilot]

Arm chair QBs. How many of you have actually been in a situation where you life was in danger (and I'm not talking about that near accident on the road)? Seriously, ever been held at knife point, how about mugged, how about in a gun battle. How about shot. And that's all the one on one stuff. People aren't so tough when a killer has a knife (even a box cutter) at a woman's throat. That's when you have to decide if you can take her out to do the job.

And yes, I'm a firm believer that one has to go through some of this stuff to find out just what they are made of.

It's easy to quote the Constitution, pick on each other, look like a hero in print. Let's see what you all have to say when the ports of San Diego go up in a mushroom cloud. And don't worry, there will be plenty of consumers, in other countries, to buy the lead paint toys from China.

Worried about someone hearing what you have to say/do? Pay in cash, use encryption when needed.

[rforsythe]

A topic from Slashdot earlier today:

During the hours that Congress was debating codifying the Bush administration's wiretapping by revising the FISA law (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/04/AR2007080401744.html?hpid=topnews), the Department of Justice was raiding the home of former Justice official Thomas M. Tamm (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20121795/site/newsweek/) to identify the person who first brought the illicit program to light: "The agents seized Tamm's desktop computer, two of his children's laptops and a cache of personal files... the raid was related to a Justice criminal probe into who leaked details of the warrantless eavesdropping program to the news media... James X. Dempsey of the Center for Democracy and Technology said the raid was 'amazing' and shows the administration's misplaced priorities: using FBI agents to track down leakers instead of processing intel warrants to close the [purported surveillance] gaps."

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Wait, tell me again how the terrorists are more of a threat then Nuclear warheads?
We've never been nuked, there was the USS Cole, the Twin Towers twice, and Beirut. If they ever get their hands on nukes, we better end it quickly, and without mercy.

Cuz im kinda not getting it... we survived 40 years of the cold war with a country HELL BENT on destroying us, supposedly...
They were our stated enemy, remember Cuba? I dated a girl from Russia, trust me, their gov't would have attempted it if it had not been for MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) as a deterrent.

But thats not worse then some camel jockeys with razor blades?
The Russians were smart enough NOT to start anything. These guys aren't.

I tell you what, I'll take my chances with the terrorists thank you very much rather then watch my government turn the United States into West Korea....
A lot of that has happened LONG before Bush. Try Reagan (and even earlier the first Presidential actions against Laudenum and pot) and his "War on Drugs" and it's total violation of our Constitutional rights against search and seizure. With a name like Kanabiis, you should know this. I take MUCH more offense at having to piss in a fucking cup at any new job than I do about them "listening in" on me.

I expected more of you Cycle then to just roll over from fear of the terrorists.
I may roll OVER them, but I've never given up any of my rights. I consider phone lines and such an easy target for ANYONE listening in, so I don't conduct much real business there.

Jesus, Americans are bitches, a bunch of pussiefied Paris Hilton worshiping pussies.... but hey, as long as you get your American Idol right? Who gives a fuck about freedom when there are terrorists around right, right... :scream2:

Like I said before, you deserve the government you get.... when the shit really starts hitting the fan, and it will, maybe not tomorrow, but it is coming. When that shit hits the fan, I will be proud, god damn proud to know that I didnt roll over, I didnt fucking just take it lying down....

So Cycle, I am quite curious, how many of your rights are you willing to sell out to fear?
I don't believe I've sold any. Still got my guns, I still speed, drink, fuck, and smoke illegal substances if I feel like it. If I've got something important to say that I don't want the gov't having a possibility of hearing, I tell it to them in person. Believe me when I tell you I've been investigated several times by the DOD and the NIS, in way more depth than most here could dream of.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


-Pastor Martin Niemöller

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
blah

[#1Townie]

bitch bitch bitch..... its everyones elses faults but our own... o wait we elected these same people into power.... of course its not our fault that they are now in power and doing things.... you want to do somthing.. start the next revolt... cival war here we come... guess that would solve the iraq thing...

[clustermagnet]

bitch bitch bitch..... its everyones elses faults but our own... o wait we elected these same people into power.... of course its not our fault that they are now in power and doing things.... you want to do somthing.. start the next revolt... cival war here we come... guess that would solve the iraq thing...

there is much to be said about the Diebold voting systems, and the known vulnerabilities in them

cyclemonkey, you missed EVERY point Kanabis made

EVERY point

[Kanabiis]

This is going to be fun, because Cycle, you don't even realize how many times you just made my points for me....


Wait, tell me again how the terrorists are more of a threat then Nuclear warheads?
We've never been nuked, there was the USS Cole, the Twin Towers twice, and Beirut. If they ever get their hands on nukes, we better end it quickly, and without mercy.

Dude, do you even realize what it takes to make a nuclear weapon? If the terrorists are to acquire one, it would come from only a few sources. NONE of which wiretapping will prevent. So spare me your mushroom cloud scare tactics ok. Seriously, its not even a point to make. Each of those attacks you speak of happen to have the terrorists who were responsible either dead or in prison, more then I can say about the person responsible for 9/11. Furthermore attacks on military targets, be definition of the word, are not terrorist attacks. Dont argue with me on that, argue with the people who decided what words mean.

To sum things up, aside from reminding me of past attacks all with conventional weapons, you still have not pointed out a single instance where the terrorists are scarier then Russia.

Cuz im kinda not getting it... we survived 40 years of the cold war with a country HELL BENT on destroying us, supposedly...
They were our stated enemy, remember Cuba? I dated a girl from Russia, trust me, their gov't would have attempted it if it had not been for MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) as a deterrent.

I think I was making that point already.. but at least we concur about something.

But thats not worse then some camel jockeys with razor blades?
The Russians were smart enough NOT to start anything. These guys aren't.

Well, an outsider looking in could easily and very effectively argue that the US started the fight. I know it doesn't play into your world view, and that you will decry me as unpatriotic, and possibly even a traitor, and you can scream and yell and put your fingers in your ears. However the fact still remains, that the root cause of most of the anti-America terrorism being waged on the US right now, can be traced back to US intervention. How about we focus on the problem rather then the symptom.

Bin Laden said it himself:

In several videotaped messages since 9/11 bin Laden gave very different, specific reasons for the attack, to wit: the U.S.-led embargo of humanitarian aid to Iraq in the 1990s following Gulf War I (in hopes that starving, illness-crazed Iraqis would arise to overthrow Saddam Hussein), later replaced with a corrupt and equally ineffective U.N. food-and-medicine-for-oil program, which together were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children; America’s unwavering Israel-first Middle-East foreign policy which has so often ignored the rights of Palestinians and which contributes to so much instability in the region, and the continued, growing presence of U.S. military bases in the Middle East, specifically in Saudi Arabia, the holiest lands in Islam.

I tell you what, I'll take my chances with the terrorists thank you very much rather then watch my government turn the United States into West Korea....
A lot of that has happened LONG before Bush. Try Reagan (and even earlier the first Presidential actions against Laudenum and pot) and his "War on Drugs" and it's total violation of our Constitutional rights against search and seizure. With a name like Kanabiis, you should know this. I take MUCH more offense at having to piss in a fucking cup at any new job than I do about them "listening in" on me.

You seem to be under the impression that I think Bush is the only bad administration the US has ever had. You couldn't be further from the truth, I am no Clinton fan. If you had read my post discussing the erosion of the bill of Rights, you will find I point the finger to administrations 150 years ago. You might not have noticed the dig about David Koresh, I was 17 years old when that happened. I knew the issue was never automatic weapons. It was because David Koresh claimed to be the next Jesus. He, and his followers were killed because the government has an obsession with cults, period. I hated Clinton for that then, I hate him now.

Infact, you pretty much made my point for me, the American people have been giving up their rights for so long, they don't even realize when it happens. Its just business as usual to them, as you have just stated, business as usual. And your willing to roll over, every time, every goddamn time.

You thing *I* like to fucking piss in a cup, no, I don't as a result I wont't work for a company that requires it. I fortunately have that luxury based on my field of choice. However not ever American does, and because of that I put my fucking money where my mouth is, I am a card carrying member of both NORMAL and the MPP... I support candidates that are pro decriminalization, and do NOT support candidates who are opposed.

So when they now tell me that they can fucking listen in on my conversations on the phone, I get even more pissed off.

My beef is not just with Bush, my beef is with the entire system, thats what you and most of the rest of the pro war, pro Bush crowed, you seem to have this idea that I'm some raving Hillary/Obama freak.

You dont understand, neither party if for you, just like South Park said, the choice here is a shit sandwich or a flying fucking turd...
They exist solely to sell you out to the highest bidder, and that bidder aint the american public, its the mega corporations.

When I see people yelling YAY BUSH or YAY HILLARY, I just laugh, because all I hear is I LOVE A SHIT SANDWICH or I LOVE A FLYING TURD....

I expected more of you Cycle then to just roll over from fear of the terrorists.
I may roll OVER them, but I've never given up any of my rights. I consider phone lines and such an easy target for ANYONE listening in, so I don't conduct much real business there.

But you see, you have already, you mentioned yourself a number of rights already gone. If you dont start to fight for the ones you have left, you will find that there are none left to have. You said it yourself as well, you dont conduct that kind of business on the phone, do you honestly think the fucking terrorists do either? They have sat phones and encryption, hell they can just meet face to face. The government knows this, they are not stupid... so ask yourself, what do they really want to know? I already discussed J Edgar Hoover, don't be nieve enough to think that there are not a thousand more like him in the ranks of government. Checks and balances are designed to minimize that chance, without checks, there are no balances.

Jesus, Americans are bitches, a bunch of pussiefied Paris Hilton worshiping pussies.... but hey, as long as you get your American Idol right? Who gives a fuck about freedom when there are terrorists around right, right... :scream2:

Like I said before, you deserve the government you get.... when the shit really starts hitting the fan, and it will, maybe not tomorrow, but it is coming. When that shit hits the fan, I will be proud, god damn proud to know that I didnt roll over, I didnt fucking just take it lying down....

So Cycle, I am quite curious, how many of your rights are you willing to sell out to fear?
I don't believe I've sold any. Still got my guns, I still speed, drink, fuck, and smoke illegal substances if I feel like it. If I've got something important to say that I don't want the gov't having a possibility of hearing, I tell it to them in person. Believe me when I tell you I've been investigated several times by the DOD and the NIS, in way more depth than most here could dream of.

Funny, every single thing you mentioned are either illegal or highly regulated, so how exactly are you excersizing your rights? Oh, your not, however, wiretapping makes it that much more easily for the government to crack down on you doing it. let me ask you, which do you think is more likely, a Nuke being detonated or you getting busted for smoking some weed?

[mrbeefy]

very interesting thread.....

I dunno,

if CHIMPY realizes people own pets, he may want to FREE THEM....

Cause the pets need FREEDOM, Cause Karl Rove Said so...

What??

The pets Do not own OIL RESERVES??? :(

Back to the thread....

I am quite suprised that so many people are finally figuring out what has happened to our CIVIL LIBERTIES taken away under the disguise of Public Safety, to prevent terrorism....

Making us safer each and everyday, and each and everyday, we lose our own freedom, speech, movement, thought, privacy, it goes on and on...

When I first heard of CHIMPY running for President, I KNEW that he was going to win via election fraud, Kennedy did it. That pissed of the
Re-puppet-licans, hence they learned how to rig elections....

If you looked around the whole world, pay attention to elections in other countries, guess how many were "CLOSE ELECTIONS"??? and guess what political party won these "CLOSE ELECTIONS" do I have to tell you? ok I will the Conservative Party won every CLOSE election,

In washington state, the Re-puppets LOST, that pissed them off, so they chose to pursue FALSE election fraud allegations, and when the Fed Attorneys refused to partake they got fired...
:siesta:

[R1chie]

Rich - under the Patriot Act, they don't need any legally-standing information to imprison you secretly and indefinitely. You must realize that the point isn't to put you in jail, but to make you disclose all the dirty little secrets you know. The goal is not prison time, it is annihilation of the enemy. Legal standing in court only matters if you actually intend on taking someone through the public legal system; terrorists (and suspected terrorists) are prosecuted under secret courts, without the benefit of due process.

I was speaking about people that were not terrorists. They cannot use that information say if you were a theif, or participating in illegal activity and take you through the legal system. I agree, if you are a terrorist, the have much better tools to go after you such as the Patriot Act. Some are worried about freedom and liberty and they should be, but they don't bring to the table a better way to deal with terrorist. 911 changed the way our country works and our freedoms forever. Our airports now have increased security, federal agencies are now working together to activly go after terrorist, government is giving them tools to make them more efficient at it and in the process our freedoms get squashed.

I seem more and more video cameras documenting everything we do in public places in the name of safety, this is happening everywhere, even more so in Europe. Big brother is watching you, and listening to you as well. I don't know the answer but they are doing it and as long as they are going after terrorists, what does the gov do. If they do nothing then there are those who complain about that, if they try to monitor terrorists, they monitor everyone and people complain about that. ( The liberals complain about everything and blame it on Bush.. yes, had to get the liberal dig in :) )Haven't heard a good answer from anyone.

[mclarke]

they have been listening for a long time....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

[D-Man]

I love it, are you really that scared of a little terrorist...

Hey guess what, in case you didnt notice, 10 out of 10 people die... the choice to die free or die in fear however is yours...

Me, I'll choose free any day of the week over fear.. thats the difference between me and you..

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security" - Benjamin Franklin

Maybe I'm not worried about myself, but my friends and family that I love.
That is the difference between me and you, you only care about yourself.

[D-Man]

Have you ever heard of a movie, documentary ... called Loose Change?

Would you consider watching it, and giving it a serious thought?

It just seems to me that having your own opinion is perfectly OK, however, having a closed minded opinion has been well covered in planet of the apes...
Now you claim that people with opinions similar to mine listen to much to what the Bush administration is telling us but, then you watch some movie, movies are made to make money, and call it gospel. I think you better look at yourself a little more closely and give a serious thought as to where you get the information to form your own opinion.

[mrbeefy]

Now you claim that people with opinions similar to mine listen to much to what the Bush administration is telling us but, then you watch some movie, movies are made to make money, and call it gospel. I think you better look at yourself a little more closely and give a serious thought as to where you get the information to form your own opinion.

You mean FOXNEWS has been LYING ALL ALONG???:slappers:

[D-Man]

I love it, are you really that scared of a little terrorist...

Hey guess what, in case you didnt notice, 10 out of 10 people die... the choice to die free or die in fear however is yours...

Me, I'll choose free any day of the week over fear.. thats the difference between me and you..

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security" - Benjamin Franklin

Now you talk of importance of freedom but when it was mentioned that we are in Iraq to give freedom to others, you say it is not important. Another point showing that you are only concerned of yourself.
This thread boils down to 9-11. I remember it like it was yesterday, when I saw the pictures of the towers burning I was sick to my stomach. I was scared (and not afraid to admit it) I thought the world was coming to and end. When they fell, I cried because I realized the great loss of life. Even though I had never seen the towers, didn't know anyone in them, I still felt the pain that was inflicted by madmen- Terrorists. This will happen again but we need to be diligent in stopping it or minimizing it.
My belief is to never let this happen again Apparently you and clusterfuck have forgotten this day or,you don't really care because it didn't affect you personally.

[mclarke]

Now you talk of importance of freedom but when it was mentioned that we are in Iraq to give freedom to others, you say it is not important. Another point showing that you are only concerned of yourself.
This thread boils down to 9-11. I remember it like it was yesterday, when I saw the pictures of the towers burning I was sick to my stomach. I was scared (and not afraid to admit it) I thought the world was coming to and end. When they fell, I cried because I realized the great loss of life. Even though I had never seen the towers, didn't know anyone in them, I still felt the pain that was inflicted by madmen- Terrorists. This will happen again but we need to be diligent in stopping it or minimizing it.
My belief is to never let this happen again Apparently you and clusterfuck have forgotten this day or,you don't really care because it didn't affect you personally.


Now you want to talk about it affecting you personally? I was in NYC at the time, I had family members 1 and 3 blocks away. I lost friends in those towers.

Do I buy into Bush's theft of my freedoms to "prevent" that from happening again? Never, I would rather die a free man then to live in a "closet" society.

[D-Man]

Now you want to talk about it affecting you personally? I was in NYC at the time, I had family members 1 and 3 blocks away. I lost friends in those towers.

Do I buy into Bush's theft of my freedoms to "prevent" that from happening again? Never, I would rather die a free man then to live in a "closet" society.

It's as simple as this, Bush is not trying to steel your freedoms, he's trying to protect you. Whether you agree or not, it is the job of our government to protect it's citizens. What would you have them do to prevent another terrorist act. Or don't you care if it happens?
Again, you state you would rather die a free man, but are you willing to sacrifice your childrens life by not letting the government watch terrorists. They are only watching those that have ties to terrorism

[Snowman]

Exactly 9/11 is the point to this argument. They attacked us killing thousands. We as a nation had to prevent them from ever doing it again.

So the first question we asked was who did this? (We got that answer)
The next question was where were they? (We knew that too)
Then we attacked and overthrow the government that harbored them. (Exactly what needed to be done, and a brilliant job it was.)

And once we had them cornered in the mountains we… decided to pull out our troops and attack Iraq. YES! Ah wait.. Hmm Iraq?

Wasn’t that a secular government run by a dictator?

WTF did this guy have to do with those that attacked us. Those we had them corned we could have carpet nuked turning Tora Bora into a lake? (and most of the world would have cheered us for doing so)

Sure he was an asshole, but most dictators are. (thus the reason the word dic is in their title.) But he had no connection with those that attacked us. In fact he, begin the infidel that he was, was on their list to be killed.

Iraq simply had nothing to do with 9/11. NOTHING!
Trying to use that tragedy to justify invading a country that had nothing to do with it is just wrong. STOP IT!

[mrbeefy]

It's as simple as this, Bush (CHIMPY) is not trying to steel your freedoms, he's trying to protect you. Whether you agree or not, it is the job of our government to protect it's citizens. What would you have them do to prevent another terrorist act. Or don't you care if it happens?
Again, you state you would rather die a free man, but are you willing to sacrifice your childrens life by not letting the government watch terrorists. They are only watching those that have ties to terrorism



THEREFORE, YOU MUST DRINK THE KOOLAID.....:shocked:

Don't question, don't ask, will I get poisoned and die, Just Drink the Koolaid...

TRUST ME!! :crazy:

[puckstr]

you guys must have seen / adored the movie... animal house...

remember Neidermeyer? (not you r1ch)... the guy was getting trampled by a stampede of the people at the parade, you know the last scene? He's shouting "ALL IS WELL" :)

Thats what i keep chanting about this...

ALL IS WELL

REMAIN CALM



Not Neidermyer at all. It was Chip Diller played by Kevin Bacon.

[clustermagnet]

Not Neidermyer at all. It was Chip Diller played by Kevin Bacon.

AH! hehe

well you get my point :D

[Mental]

It's as simple as this, Bush is not trying to steel your freedoms, he's trying to protect you. Whether you agree or not, it is the job of our government to protect it's citizens. What would you have them do to prevent another terrorist act. Or don't you care if it happens?
Again, you state you would rather die a free man, but are you willing to sacrifice your childrens life by not letting the government watch terrorists. They are only watching those that have ties to terrorism

I'm breaking my politcal thread rule, but...

No it is not the job of the government to protect it's citizens. It has never been the job of the government. Find one document that has ever said this.

Security is not and has never been guaranteed by any document crafted by the founders of this nation.

The job of the security has always fallen to the citizens. In earlier times, it was the militia, in modern times it's the military. And every military member swears an oath of allegiance, not to the president, not to the government and not even to the population. Every military member swears an oath of allegiance to the Constitution.

If they were only watching terrorists, then they would be able to get a warrant. But they are looking for terrorists, which means by nature they are listening to everyone.

If you have ever worked for the government, the sheer volume of incompetence and bureaucracy should bother you. Add that to this level of information they now have access to about you and that should scare you.

I do not wake up every day like I have for the past 16 years and put on a uniform so that you can be safe. I wake up everyday and put on a uniform so you can be free. I wish I could do both, but I can't. I choose freedom. There are those that choose safety.

What built this nation? Safety or Freedom? But the decision actually resides in where you feel the future of this nation exists. Safety or freedom?

The majority's desires will decide the future of our republic.

[D-Man]

THEREFORE, YOU MUST DRINK THE KOOLAID.....:shocked:

Don't question, don't ask, will I get poisoned and die, Just Drink the Koolaid...

TRUST ME!! :crazy:


You've got a total of 7 posts and every post you refer to Bush as "chimpy"
It was funny the first time and hasn't gotten any funnier. Time to get new material for your stand-up act.

[636Chick]

Ok So I thought the Koolaid remark was aimed at that Jim guy that had all his followers drink the posioned koolaid


What was his name......... hmmm

I guess I missed something about Bush and koolaid

I do remember another great man............

"I did not have sexually relations with that girl......"

But my cigar did!

Wacka wacka wacka!!!!

This comercial interruption was brought to you by the makers of Pee and Poop Plushables!!!!

Sorry please continue................

[D-Man]

I'm breaking my politcal thread rule, but...

No it is not the job of the government to protect it's citizens. It has never been the job of the government. Find one document that has ever said this.

Security is not and has never been guaranteed by any document crafted by the founders of this nation.

The job of the security has always fallen to the citizens. In earlier times, it was the militia, in modern times it's the military. And every military member swears an oath of allegiance, not to the president, not to the government and not even to the population. Every military member swears an oath of allegiance to the Constitution.

If they were only watching terrorists, then they would be able to get a warrant. But they are looking for terrorists, which means by nature they are listening to everyone.

If you have ever worked for the government, the sheer volume of incompetence and bureaucracy should bother you. Add that to this level of information they now have access to about you and that should scare you.

I do not wake up every day like I have for the past 16 years and put on a uniform so that you can be safe. I wake up everyday and put on a uniform so you can be free. I wish I could do both, but I can't. I choose freedom. There are those that choose safety.

What built this nation? Safety or Freedom? But the decision actually resides in where you feel the future of this nation exists. Safety or freedom?

The majority's desires will decide the future of our republic.

The document I have is the IRS check I send every April. It is up to the military to protect our country, and citizens of that country That is what the military is for, If it is not, why do we have a military? If I am not safe, then I am not free.

[mclarke]

The document I have is the IRS check I send every April. It is up to the military to protect our country, and citizens of that country That is what the military is for, If it is not, why do we have a military? If I am not safe, then I am not free.

Since when do you think all the wars, money and power in the world will make you safe? Safety is an illusion.

[D-Man]

Since when do you think all the wars, money and power in the world will make you safe? Safety is an illusion.

It doesn't, I am asking for my goverment that I fund to try and protect me and the rest of the country. As I ask them to build roads and bridges, or power plants for electricity. This is what we all pay an enormous amount of taxes for.

Back to the thread at hand. I just stated that I don't like the idea of giving up any freedoms but if phone tapping helps prevent a terrorist act, then I am willing to concede that freedom that by the way does have restrictions as to how it is used. They can't just open up a phone book, close their eyes and point at a name and say "hey, lets listen in on that guy" And you liberals call the Bush Administation "fear mongers"

[mclarke]

They can't just open up a phone book, close their eyes and point at a name and say "hey, lets listen in on that guy" ...


Have you even read the the patriot act?

[clustermagnet]

It doesn't, I am asking for my goverment that I fund to try and protect me and the rest of the country. As I ask them to build roads and bridges, or power plants for electricity. This is what we all pay an enormous amount of taxes for.

Back to the thread at hand. I just stated that I don't like the idea of giving up any freedoms but if phone tapping helps prevent a terrorist act, then I am willing to concede that freedom that by the way does have restrictions as to how it is used. They can't just open up a phone book, close their eyes and point at a name and say "hey, lets listen in on that guy" And you liberals call the Bush Administation "fear mongers"

oh ya? read this shit

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1231089,00.html

unfortunately to say, this is happening everywhere... except for your comfortable surroundings... but hey, you're not the only one in this world

[mtnairlover]

Back to the thread at hand. I just stated that I don't like the idea of giving up any freedoms but if phone tapping helps prevent a terrorist act, then I am willing to concede that freedom that by the way does have restrictions as to how it is used. They can't just open up a phone book, close their eyes and point at a name and say "hey, lets listen in on that guy" And you liberals call the Bush Administation "fear mongers"

Apparently, you didn't read my earlier post. Yes, my privacy was invaded...and yes, it was someone with the government...and no it wasn't for terrorist reasons...it was just "because he could."

And that's what happens with that kind of power as I tried to elude to earlier...sheesh!

Ok, I'm done now...who cares anyways...we're all growing complacent...so who really gives a rat's ass? blah-dy f'n blah.

Told ya it was an emotional subject for me.

[clustermagnet]

Apparently, you didn't read my earlier post. Yes, my privacy was invaded...and yes, it was someone with the government...and no it wasn't for terrorist reasons...it was just "because he could."

And that's what happens with that kind of power as I tried to elude to earlier...sheesh!

Ok, I'm done now...who cares anyways...we're all growing complacent...so who really gives a rat's ass? blah-dy f'n blah.

Told ya it was an emotional subject for me.

oh come on! you really think they read anything you post! They already know the answer, and could give a fuck less what you think... even if you're right.

they're the smart ones, remember?

sigh.. if only people were more open-minded creatures...

[mrbeefy]

You've got a total of 7 posts and every post you refer to Bush as "chimpy"
It was funny the first time and hasn't gotten any funnier. Time to get new material for your stand-up act.


Oh?, I am sorry that your FOX NEWS Short Attention Span cannot HANDLE THE TRUTH!

I believe the D in your name stands for DUMBASS.....


Word Association...

Chimpy..... Bush

War Criminal....Chimpy Bush

Constitution & Bill of Rights.........GONE..........:(
Chimpy's Colon....... Osama Bin Laden... :)

[636Chick]

Oh?, I am sorry that your FOX NEWS Short Attention Span cannot HANDLE THE TRUTH!

I believe the D in your name stands for DUMBASS.....


Word Association...

Chimpy..... Bush

War Criminal....Chimpy Bush

Constitution & Bill of Rights.........GONE..........:(
Chimpy's Colon....... Osama Bin Laden... :)

Uhmmmmmm, :vader: :no:
This shoud end well, at least entertaining.

[mtnairlover]

they're the smart ones, remember?

sigh.. if only people were more open-minded creatures...

D'oh...what was I thinking? Oh...yeah...that's right, I'm a woman...

Meh...it's an old story and has nothing to do with this thread...um, yeah right. Oh well, carry on.

[D-Man]

Oh?, I am sorry that your FOX NEWS Short Attention Span cannot HANDLE THE TRUTH!

I believe the D in your name stands for DUMBASS.....


Word Association...

Chimpy..... Bush

War Criminal....Chimpy Bush

Constitution & Bill of Rights.........GONE..........:(
Chimpy's Colon....... Osama Bin Laden... :)

That's 8 posts now and you got the word "chimpy" in twice,
You're good.
At least when Kanabiis posts, he posts what he believes to be facts and actually puts up a good argument.
You post child like name calling.
I will respect him for his opinion and quit reading your BS

[D-Man]

oh come on! you really think they read anything you post! They already know the answer, and could give a fuck less what you think... even if you're right.

they're the smart ones, remember?

sigh.. if only people were more open-minded creatures...

I do care what others think, that is the only reason I am still posting on this thread which started as a poll, I gave my opinion and all the liberals have been bashing me. I think it is you that could give a fuck what others think,

[mtnairlover]

I guess my point with all my posts is that allowing our government to willy-nilly dictate what it says it can do isn't what this country is all about. We're supposed to be telling them what we want...remember? This is a democracy. The other point in my post about being listened in on is that just because it's the government that is listening doesn't mean that its all above board. There are people in all walks of life, in all professions who take their "power" a step too far. And, since this country is a democracy, there should be rules and regs in place to curb things like that happening again.

Ha and I've been listening to Incubus this evening and thought these lyrics were appropriate...


When It Comes

It's comin' around again
they're letting it out again, again.
It's comin' around again
they're letting it out again, again.
When it comes,
it comes abrupt.
When it feels, it feels like trading brains with an imbecile... for real.
Yes I feel emphatic about not being static
and not buying philosophies that are sold to me, at a steal.
Just when you thought it was safe to think,
in comes mental piracy!
To know,what I'm looking for,
cannot be sold to me.
I wish they all would stop trying
cause' what I want and what I need,
is and will always be free.
It's comin' around again
they're letting it out again, again.
It's comin' around again
they're letting it out again.
When it comes,
it comes unannounced.
And it feels like a matador is taunting me with his reddest red cloth and I am the bull.
Yes I feel emphatic about not being static
and not eating the bullshit that's being fed to me no more...
cause' now I'm full.
Just when you thought it was safe to think
in comes mental piracy!
What I'm looking for cannot be sold to me.
I wish they all would stop trying,
cause' what I want and what I need
is and will always be free.

[Kanabiis]

I'm breaking my politcal thread rule, but...

No it is not the job of the government to protect it's citizens. It has never been the job of the government. Find one document that has ever said this.

Security is not and has never been guaranteed by any document crafted by the founders of this nation.

The job of the security has always fallen to the citizens. In earlier times, it was the militia, in modern times it's the military. And every military member swears an oath of allegiance, not to the president, not to the government and not even to the population. Every military member swears an oath of allegiance to the Constitution.

If they were only watching terrorists, then they would be able to get a warrant. But they are looking for terrorists, which means by nature they are listening to everyone.

If you have ever worked for the government, the sheer volume of incompetence and bureaucracy should bother you. Add that to this level of information they now have access to about you and that should scare you.

I do not wake up every day like I have for the past 16 years and put on a uniform so that you can be safe. I wake up everyday and put on a uniform so you can be free. I wish I could do both, but I can't. I choose freedom. There are those that choose safety.

What built this nation? Safety or Freedom? But the decision actually resides in where you feel the future of this nation exists. Safety or freedom?

The majority's desires will decide the future of our republic.

I was going to come in and make this very point. The Constitution says alot of things, and you will find me quoting the Constitution many times, because it is the bible to me, but the Constitution makes no declaration to the right to security. To the contrary, the founding fathers made sure not to declare that as a job or role of the government.

They lived in that world, remember..

"We need to search that wagon to make sure there are no rebels"

"This soldier needs to stay at your house, its for your own protection"

Are you really going to argue that they even implied that the government should operate that way?

The Constitution is a unique document in the history of human politics. It builds on many great ideas from the past, such as the Magna Carta, and democratic common law from the Greeks, who the Romans later pretty much copied, and even took their gods.

The Constitution doesnt tell you, the citizen of the US what you can or cannot do. It tells the Government what it can, and cannot do. Think of it as a contract between YOU and the Federal Government, signed for by proxy by the founding fathers. By doing this, they insured, or attempted to, that American citizens would forever be the freest people in the world.

Because of this, however, there is a downside, an open free people is inherently insecure. Freedom and Safe in the context of society, cannot go together. By eliminating danger, you MUST take away freedoms. How else can you guarantee safety?

You cannot have both, and our founding fathers knew this. They wrote about it in their journals and letters to each other.

I quote Benjamin Franklin often in this regard, because he said it best:


"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security" - Benjamin Franklin

Someone said that I apparently don't care about my friends and family as much as he does...

You couldn't be farther from the truth, but I'm not going to let my son, mother, wife, or any of my friends to have to be subject to guilty until proven innocent, because he or she MIGHT be a terrorist. Any intrusion into my privacy, without justifiable cause is violating my right to due process. My private conversations on the phone are just as private as my dick between my legs. If the government wants to see or hear either of them, I will be happy to let them see it, right after I am served my constitutional guaranteed warrant.

[#1Townie]

dude you all need to go jack off or somthing....

[mrbeefy]

That's 8 posts now and you got the word "chimpy" in twice,
You're good.
At least when Kanabiis posts, he posts what he believes to be facts and actually puts up a good argument.
You post child like name calling.
I will respect him for his opinion and quit reading your BS

CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH
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CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH
CHIMPY BUSH That's 8 posts now and you got the word "chimpy" in twice,
You're good.
At least when Kanabiis posts, he posts what he believes to be facts and actually puts up a good argument.
You post child like name calling.
I will respect him for his opinion and quit reading your BS

CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH CHIMPY BUSH
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CHIMPY BUSH
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[mclarke]

now you're just acting like a 2 year old

[mrbeefy]

now you're just acting like a 2 year old


At least I got Chicken...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI4G9kGma-0

[Kanabiis]

Come on Mcbeefy, thats just uncalled for.....

don't get the thread locked down, I have a lot of points left to make... but busy day today at work...so I have to wait till i get home.... :scream1:

[clustermagnet]

I do care what others think, that is the only reason I am still posting on this thread which started as a poll, I gave my opinion and all the liberals have been bashing me. I think it is you that could give a fuck what others think,

ROFL

wait a second, lets disect your message...

First sentence, you state that you do not care what others think...

Last sentence, you scrutinize me by saying "I think it is you that could give a fuck what others think"

I do not expect people to proofread, which I never do myself... However, I prefer to read sentences from people who's thought structure and preferably their teeth ... uhm... connect. :)

To tell you the truth... i care DEEPLY what other people/groups think of any certain controversial issue. However, we are not talking about quantum mechanics, nor trying to integrate anything, or solve a puzzle... We are trying to connect ideas and facts sourced from our observations, life wisdom, news sources, books we've read, etc, and come up with an intellectual decision and summary on what is going on around us.

If the current events are raising hair in the back of your necks... its really your duty to speak up... including trolling a friendly motorcycle board :D

xoxo

[D-Man]

ROFL

wait a second, lets disect your message...

First sentence, you state that you do not care what others think...

Last sentence, you scrutinize me by saying "I think it is you that could give a fuck what others think"

I do not expect people to proofread, which I never do myself... However, I prefer to read sentences from people who's thought structure and preferably their teeth ... uhm... connect. :)

To tell you the truth... i care DEEPLY what other people/groups think of any certain controversial issue. However, we are not talking about quantum mechanics, nor trying to integrate anything, or solve a puzzle... We are trying to connect ideas and facts sourced from our observations, life wisdom, news sources, books we've read, etc, and come up with an intellectual decision and summary on what is going on around us.

If the current events are raising hair in the back of your necks... its really your duty to speak up... including trolling a friendly motorcycle board :D

xoxo

You better disect again. I said I DO care what others think The word "not" isn't in my post

[Mental]

The document I have is the IRS check I send every April. It is up to the military to protect our country, and citizens of that country That is what the military is for, If it is not, why do we have a military? If I am not safe, then I am not free.

Exactly my point. It is the military's job, not the government.

Yes, I am splitting hairs, but our government was deliberately constructed to keep the military out of politics, because you do not want the most well armed segment of your population having a political opinion as a group.

This wire tapping is not being done by the military; it is being done by other government agencies. So, the military is doing its job of protecting you, as citizen soldiers because in the US, protection is an obligation of the citizen, not the government.

Furthermore, the military is protecting you with huge amount of oversight. Right or wrong, military members are being brought up on charges for not complying with the law. We even have our own special law called the Uniform Code of Military Justice and our own prison system. That is for folks who have volunteered to defend you and your freedom. They willing subject themselves to that additional measure of oversight because it is that important. So important in fact that is also part of the oath we swear to when we swear to the Constitution.

It’s called checks and balances, and again, its an essential ingredient in the government of this republic.

So again, the government has never been tasked with keeping you safe. More so the agencies that are allowed this wiretapping are not charged with you safety either, they are charged with enforcing the law. That law along with every law in this country stem from the people, as they are empowered by the Constitution.

... They can't just open up a phone book, close their eyes and point at a name and say "hey, lets listen in on that guy"...
Yes, they can. That's what this enables them to do.

... I just stated that I don't like the idea of giving up any freedoms but if phone tapping helps prevent a terrorist act, then I am willing to concede that freedom that by the way does have restrictions as to how it is used.

I am not willing to concede those freedoms, and that is the central core of this discussion.
…and don’t you dare tell me that because I love my freedom, I am wanting another terrorist attack.

...And you liberals call the Bush Administation "fear mongers"
This kind of "if you do don't agree with me you must be one of them mentality" is destroying our country. I am not a liberal. I am not a conservative, I am an American. Remember those?

[Kanabiis]

It is indeed a sad state of affairs when people actually have to defend the notion of freedom, in this 'free country'.

I can't believe that I am actually called unpatriotic, or worse yet, a traitor to my country, for wanting to defend the rights of myself, and my fellow citizens.