Engine Temp & Cooling (Was "Wetter Water")

[wraithR1]

Is anyone using this product? I'm up for a service here pretty soon and am thinking of using it. My bike operates in the 210 - 220 degree range right now and is killing my thighs.

[UglyDogRacing]

Even though the label on it says that it can lower your temp by 30 degrees, my experience with Waterwetter is that it is not going to help your bike run cooler. I run it and so do most racers because it raises the boiling point of water when mixed with it.
If you are not planning on racing, then a good alternative to antifreeze is Engine Ice. Engine Ice did lower the temp in a street bike that I was running it in.

[wraithR1]

Thanks for the tip! I don't race so the Engine Ice appears to be more feasible. How much did the Engine Ice lower the temp?

[japrules]

There is another reason to use water wetter for racing.. if you do not run anti-freeze it lubricates your water pump. I have tested in auto racing apps.. no cooler. It lowers boiling point and lubes.. thats it.

Joe

[BlueDevil]

Even though the label on it says that it can lower your temp by 30 degrees, my experience with Waterwetter is that it is not going to help your bike run cooler. I run it and so do most racers because it raises the boiling point of water when mixed with it.
If you are not planning on racing, then a good alternative to antifreeze is Engine Ice. Engine Ice did lower the temp in a street bike that I was running it in.


Id second this. If U arent racing or have some rule that prevents using Anti freeze...dont bother.

[The GECCO]

There is another reason to use water wetter for racing.. if you do not run anti-freeze it lubricates your water pump. I have tested in auto racing apps.. no cooler. It lowers boiling point and lubes.. thats it.

Joe

Nope, sorry. I assume you typoed that it lowers boiling points, but even if you said it raised boiling points you'd be wrong. Pressure is the only thing that raises boiling temps.

Water pumps don't need lubrication. The bearing for the impeller shaft is behind the shaft seal and lubricated by the engine oil.

Today’s motorcycle engines aren’t running hot, they run at ~220 because that’s how they are designed to operate. More on that below.

Here's what water wetter REALLY does. It is a surfactant, which means it lowers the surface tension of water. What does that mean? Well, lemme put it this way - bar soap doesn't actually clean your skin, water does. The problem is that normally the surface tension of both your skin and the water prevents the water from getting "into" your skin enough to remove oils and dirt. If you lower the surface tension of the water it can become thinner and get in between your skin and the oils and dirt you want to remove. Bubbles are a natural result of soap, but they aren't made of soap, they are made of water. Normally the surface tension of water is such that the surface breaks before it is stretched thin enough to be supported by air and form a bubble. If you lower the surface tension it can be stretched thinner without breaking and a bubble is formed.

Another example of what surface tension does is when you wax your car. Before waxing it doesn't "bead" water, right? The water spreads out smoothly. When you wax your car one of the results is the surface of the paint now has a higher surface tension and resists the water, which results in "beading". This means that the surface also resists other contaminants, which is how the wax protects the paint. The beading is a result of the surface tension of the water making it want to form a sphere, a sphere being the shape that has the least amount of surface area per amount of volume.

OK, back to the point...in order for water to cool an engine you must have heat transfer in three places - from the engine to the water, then from the water to the radiator, then from the radiator fins to the air. We'll forget about the third for now since we're talking about the water, not the condition of the fins.

So, we agree we need heat transfer. Heat is most efficiently transferred when objects touch, the more surface area they touch, the more energy they transfer. Back to the water beading on your fresh wax job - when the water beads (high surface tension) only a very little of it is actually touching the paint and available to accept heat transfer, whereas before you waxed it (low surface tension) the water spread out and there was more surface area contact, which would facilitate better energy transfer.

Inside your engine there is natural surface tension in both the aluminum and the water...they are resisting contact and therefore resisting energy transfer. The surfactant lowers the waters surface tension and makes it "dig into" the aluminum better. This increase in surface area contact reduces hot spots and makes for better energy transfer both from the engine to the water and the water to the radiator. Once the radiator has the energy, the fins must be in good enough shape to get the energy to the air. Again, more fins and/or straighter fins = more surface area exposed to the air.

So, in summary, all water wetter does is lower the surface tension of the water which increases surface area contact between the water and the aluminum which in turn increases energy transfer between the two. The trick is making a product that lowers the surface tension without allowing the churning of the water pump to create foam or bubbles.

A couple other general points about engine temp:

1) As I said above, these bikes are designed to run hot. You want it to run as hot as possible, as long as the temp levels off and doesn’t continue to climb. Why? Because another thing that increases energy transfer is a disparity between the temps of the two objects. The cooler the water in the jackets is, the more heat it takes from the cylinder, which is heat that is now no longer pushing the piston down. When you use products like this to lower engine temp, what you’ve effectively done is allow yourself some headroom to do mechanical things that increase HP (which increases heat by-product) without overheating the engine. As long as it isn’t boiling over, don’t lower engine temps just for the sake of wanting the engine to run cooler, the result will be a decrease (albeit, a very small one) in power output.

2) If you are sure your cooling system is operating at its peak and you still can’t control engine temps, the possible culprit is pre-detonation of the fuel (the fuel burning from the heat in the cylinder before the sparkplug fires). Even if the engine is bone stock and runs fine on pump gas on the street, the constant high RPM use of track use allows less time for the excess heat to dissipate. This increases cylinder temps, which can lead to pre-det, which leads to higher temps, which leads to more pre-det, etc, and your coolant temp skyrockets. The answer could be higher-octane fuel. Octane is a measure of the fuels ability to resist pre-detonation. Because higher-octane fuels actually resist burning, ideally you want to run the lowest (yes, I said lowest) octane fuel you can without getting pre-detonation. This will result in an increase in power output. Putting higher-octane fuel in an engine that doesn’t exhibit symptoms of needing it will result in a decrease in power output (oxygenated fuels excepted – this is another discussion). You put high-octane fuel in high HP engines because they make lots of power, not the other way around.

3) Other factors that increase engine temp are lean mixtures, compression increases and timing advances.

Your homework for tonight is to read chapters 4-7 on thermodynamics. Class dismissed.

[BlueDevil]

Wow U learnded me some schooling today. :D

Good info.

Although the girls that sit next to me at work dont agree that their foo foo expensive soap is not actually cleaning their skin. "If they pay 5 bucks a bar its supposed to be better at cleaning your skin" :lol:

[The GECCO]

Wow U learnded me some schooling today. :D

Good info.

Although the girls that sit next to me at work dont agree that their foo foo expensive soap is not actually cleaning their skin. "If they pay 5 bucks a bar its supposed to be better at cleaning your skin" :lol:

LOL They could be right, but that just means their soap is a better surfactant, it still isn't cleaning their skin.

Either that or they are paying extra for all the purfumes and moisturizing crap they're putting in womens soap these days...not that I mind, I like it when women are soft and smell all "girly" :yumyum: :D

[Big-J]

WOW, Thanks Glen!! That is some good info you just gave!!

[919Guy]

Look at the big brain on Glenn!!!

Seriously. Good info...

[BlueDevil]

Either that or they are paying extra for all the purfumes and moisturizing crap they're putting in womens soap these days...not that I mind, I like it when women are soft and smell all "girly" :yumyum: :D


Agreed!!!

[Dysco]

What's up, Mr Wizard? Holy crap. I lost a good chunk of my childhood storing that information.
Still haven't forgotten about my GIJoe party, though...

[1000RR]

It is a surfactant, which means it lowers the surface tension of water. What does that mean? Well, lemme put it this way - bar soap doesn't actually clean your skin, water does. The problem is that normally the surface tension of both your skin and the water prevents the water from getting "into" your skin enough to remove oils and dirt. If you lower the surface tension of the water it can become thinner and get in between your skin and the oils and dirt you want to remove. Bubbles are a natural result of soap, but they aren't made of soap, they are made of water. Normally the surface tension of water is such that the surface breaks before it is stretched thin enough to be supported by air and form a bubble. If you lower the surface tension it can be stretched thinner without breaking and a bubble is formed.


Soap is a surfactant which allows the water to clean skin and form bubbles, and the lower the surface tension in a radiator fluid, the better correct?


Hot damn! I'm gonna go home and put beer in my radiator and take a piss shower!
;)

[Bigtime73]

It is a surfactant, which means it lowers the surface tension of water. What does that mean? Well, lemme put it this way - bar soap doesn't actually clean your skin, water does. The problem is that normally the surface tension of both your skin and the water prevents the water from getting "into" your skin enough to remove oils and dirt. If you lower the surface tension of the water it can become thinner and get in between your skin and the oils and dirt you want to remove. Bubbles are a natural result of soap, but they aren't made of soap, they are made of water. Normally the surface tension of water is such that the surface breaks before it is stretched thin enough to be supported by air and form a bubble. If you lower the surface tension it can be stretched thinner without breaking and a bubble is formed.


Soap is a surfactant which allows the water to clean skin and form bubbles, and the lower the surface tension in a radiator fluid, the better correct?


Hot damn! I'm gonna go home and put beer in my radiator and take a piss shower!
;)

I just dyed laffing!!! That is some funny sh*t!!! Bwhahahahah LMAO :lol:
BIGGS<---can't stop laffin at desk...

[The GECCO]

Hot damn! I'm gonna go home and put beer in my radiator and take a piss shower!
;)

....ummmmm........ :|



:?



:wtf:




what?!?

[Bertha]

Professor Glenn... Do we get extra credit if build one of the toys mentioned chapter 5? I was thinking of building the “simple rocket engine”.

Thanks!

Chapter 5 (http://www.scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/thermo/thermo.html#heat)

[The GECCO]

Dude....do you have ANY IDEA how bad Lurch would make fun of you if you showed up with a little match-head rocket that goes a few feet at best? :lol:

[Bertha]

haha I know... Lurch.. yeah... crazy MOFO!

[eric]

I run Water Wette in my Saab with good results......

[~Barn~]

All reading this thread made me want to do, is wash and wax my bike.

We should have a big CSC wash and wax day somewhere. :lol:

[Pokie]

A whisp of Wetter water whet my better water wetter :wtf:

[Chris]

Another example of what surface tension does is when you wax your car. Before waxing it doesn't "bead" water, right? The water spreads out smoothly. When you wax your car one of the results is the surface of the paint now has a higher surface tension and resists the water, which results in "beading". This means that the surface also resists other contaminants, which is how the wax protects the paint. The beading is a result of the surface tension of the water making it want to form a sphere, a sphere being the shape that has the least amount of surface area per amount of volume.



WRONG

Are you just making this bullshit up off the top of your head?

http://www.pa.msu.edu/sciencet/ask_st/081094.html

[mushin_man39]

You didn't say if that was at idle or riding. If riding, what type of riding? City or highway? What's the ambient temp? etc....

[#1Townie]

im hearing that engine ice is some good stuff...

[The GECCO]

WRONG

Are you just making this bullshit up off the top of your head?

http://www.pa.msu.edu/sciencet/ask_st/081094.html

Sorry, Chris, but I'm not wrong. Surface tension = cohesion. They say lower adhesion, I say raise surface tension, these are two ways of saying the same thing.

In that article they talk about wax filling in the imperfections of the paint (making the surface smoother, and a smoother surface has less surface area to present). A smooth surface always has a higher surface tension than a rough one. Was I technically wrong by saying that the PAINT is beading the water rather than the microscopic layer of chemicals that are making the surface smoother? Perhaps....wow, ya got me there :roll:

They also talk about wax being hydrophobic. This was true many years ago when car wax actually WAS wax, or at least had wax/parafin in it. Those products went the way of the Dodo a while back because that stuff built up over time and clouded finishes. We still call it car wax, but these days there are much more advanced chemicals in use, but they all pretty much do the same thing - they polish down and/or fill in surface imperfections in the paint to raise the surface tension (by lowering the surface area), which blocks out contaminants (like water)

Water Wetter lowers the cohesion, that's what a surfactant DOES, by definition.

Go back to school and try again. Or at least find an article that wasn't written over decade ago.

[Chris]

Well i was not really trying to be an ass so i can agree to disagree.

I don't think the phrase "surface tension" should be used at all, it is at best confusing.

[pf702]

anyone not already bored by this post and it's participants trying to prove how smart they are(Napoleonic complex maybe)...can read more about Surfactants below:

Etymology
The term surfactant is a blend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blend_%28linguistics%29) of "surface active agent". Surfactants are usually organic compounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound) that are amphiphilic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphiphilic), meaning they contain both hydrophobic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophobic) groups (their "tails") and hydrophilic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophilic) groups (their "heads"). Therefore, they are soluble in both organic solvents and water. The term surfactant was coined by Antara Products in 1950.
In Index Medicus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Medicus) and the United States National Library of Medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Library_of_Medicine), "surfactant" is reserved for the meaning pulmonary surfactant (see "alveoli" link below). For the more general meaning, "surface active agent" is the heading.
The most common, biological example of surfactant is that coating the surfaces of the Alveoli, the small air sacs of the lungs that serve as the site of gas exchange.

Operation and effects

[/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MicelleSchematic.png"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MicelleSchematic.png)
A micelle - the lipophilic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipophilic) ends of the surfactant molecules dissolve in the oil, while the hydrophilic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophilic) charged ends remain outside, shielding the rest of the hydrophobic micelle


Surfactants reduce the surface tension of water by adsorbing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adsorption) at the liquid-gas interface. They also reduce the interfacial tension between oil and water by adsorbing at the liquid-liquid interface. Many surfactants can also assemble in the bulk solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution) into aggregates (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Aggregate#2). Some of these aggregates are known as micelles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micelle). The concentration at which surfactants begin to form micelles is known as the critical micelle concentration or CMC. When micelles form in water, their tails form a core that can encapsulate an oil droplet, and their (ionic/polar) heads form an outer shell that maintains favorable contact with water. When surfactants assemble in oil, the aggregate is referred to as a reverse micelle. In a reverse micelle, the heads are in the core and the tails maintain favorable contact with oil.
Surfactants are also often classified into four primary groups; anionic, cationic, non-ionic, and zwitterionic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwitterion) (dual charge).
Thermodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics) of the surfactant systems are of great importance, theoretically and practically. This is because surfactant systems represent systems between ordered and disordered states of matter. Surfactant solutions may contain an ordered phase (micelles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micelle)) and a disordered phase (free surfactant molecules and/or ions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion) in the solution).
Ordinary washing up (dishwashing) detergent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detergent), for example, will promote water penetration in soil, but the effect would only last a few days (although many standard laundry detergent powders contain levels of chemicals such as sodium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium) and boron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron), which can be damaging to plants, so these should not be applied to soils). Commercial soil wetting agents will continue to work for a considerable period, but they will eventually be degraded by soil micro-organisms. Some can, however, interfere with the life-cycles of some aquatic organisms, so care should be taken to prevent run-off of these products into streams, and excess product should not be washed down gutters.

[Bassil Duwaik]

ah you killed it pf702. it sounded much cooler when gecco said it

[James]

Pressure can't be the only thing that affects boiling temperature. After all, that's why there are different DOT approved brake fluids. Each one has a different boiling point, and you aren't changing any pressure there.

[goldman812]

i always use water wetter in all my race bikes

[InSuPress]

I just swapped the coolant out on my bike, 50/50 mix with 1/3 of a bottle of water wetter and i can say bike is running cooler, no longer at lights are my legs getting hot. they used to cook me at all lights. Haven't had that happen at all.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Excellent info here, but I will disagree that the soap itself does not clean. Yes, it is a surfactant, allowing the water to carry away the dirt better, but most soaps still break down the contaminants (skin oils, etc.), so it really does help clean. Don't believe me? Get real dirty, and try using car wax in the shower instead of soap. Errrr, or maybe not. THAT leaves a bad mental image. :)

[mdub]

car wax

i did noticed in the past when i wax over smudge/dirt that it does come right off. And surprisingly enuff it somehows prevents the dirt to scuff the plastic.

[tecknojoe]

I just swapped the coolant out on my bike, 50/50 mix with 1/3 of a bottle of water wetter and i can say bike is running cooler, no longer at lights are my legs getting hot. they used to cook me at all lights. Haven't had that happen at all.

I hope your garage is heated. otherwise, run coolant in the winter

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Pressure can't be the only thing that affects boiling temperature. After all, that's why there are different DOT approved brake fluids. Each one has a different boiling point, and you aren't changing any pressure there.
Exactly. Salinity, mineral content, lubricant, and other factors do affect the boiling pointas WELL as the pressure, though perhaps to a very minor degree. And yes, I know you need to use distilled water to eliminate that variable.

Yeah, wax DOES help get contaminates off the paint, but soap is better and doesn't leave the residue.

[GuitarX]

Wow, Gecco for the best post of the year. The forum just got a bit more readable again.

Another product to try instead of Water Wetter is Mocool by Motul. The MV F4 is infamous for running hot. Steve at Mad Moto recommended this stuff along with a few of the normal MV forum fixes and it really helped. I'm using a mixture of this along with normal anti-freeze so I still have the protection.

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/4/22/269/21140/ITEM/Motul-MoCool-Coolant.aspx

[UglyDogRacing]

Wow, Gecco for the best post of the year. The forum just got a bit more readable again.



Which year? His first post was in this thread was 2004 and his 2nd was in 2007. :)

[OUTLAWD]

I hope your garage is heated. otherwise, run coolant in the winter


:think:

50/50 is good to ~-34F IIRC


and this :spit:


Which year? His first post was in this thread was 2004 and his 2nd was in 2007. :)

[tecknojoe]

I was under the impression that water wetter is not suitable at low temps. is that wrong?

[Bueller]

50% water w/water wetter and 50% anti freeze is what he is referring to.

[tecknojoe]

o, i thought he was talking 50% wetter and 50% water.

[GuitarX]

Which year? His first post was in this thread was 2004 and his 2nd was in 2007. :)

...thus explaining my shock that a literate, intelligent, knowledgeable, thoughtful, helpful post was actually on the forum in late 2011.

Thanks for clarifying Jim! LOL

[mathman1000]

WRONG

Are you just making this bullshit up off the top of your head?

http://www.pa.msu.edu/sciencet/ask_st/081094.html


You're kidding right? If you read the article it says the same thing; that is if you can understand what Glen wrote.

[WolFeYeZ]

You're kidding right? If you read the article it says the same thing; that is if you can understand what Glen wrote.

You do know you are arguing with an over 4 year old post, right?

[One-ops]

6 years seems long enough for the next post on this one! LOL
No talk of corrosive properties. I was told and read a bit that purple ice has more then water wetter. After years of using water wetter the cooling system looks a bit nasty. So I'm trying it out and no worries of distilled water. Although after reading mixing directions water wetter didn't need it either. Swore it did years ago. Maybe that was some of my problem with corrosion?

[The Black Knight]

6 years seems long enough for the next post on this one! LOL
No talk of corrosive properties. I was told and read a bit that purple ice has more then water wetter. After years of using water wetter the cooling system looks a bit nasty. So I'm trying it out and no worries of distilled water. Although after reading mixing directions water wetter didn't need it either. Swore it did years ago. Maybe that was some of my problem with corrosion?

nothing like waking up a zombie thread.. :up:

[One-ops]

Don't be alarmed.
The stale deadness will resume

[The Black Knight]

Don't be alarmed.
The stale deadness will resume

Oh no, I think it's funny man. This thread is informative. I do get a kick out of waking up a zombie thread. On one of the guitar forums I'm on, some guys will revive stuff that's super old just for fun. Pisses everyone off. I think it's great, and the only way to troll.

[One-ops]

:cheers:

[FZRguy]

I've been using Silkolene Pro Cool for years. I have used Water Wetter and H20 for track days. No overheating issues with either.