Bike lost power...oil all over the place

[DYNO]

So my trip to work was eventful and damn near deadly.

On the highway, get on the throttle and bike just revs, no go.

I dodge a whole bunch of cars and get over to the side and see a good amount of oil on the pipe and back tire...and it's dripping from someplace.

So once the bike got warmed up, the oil apparently started spewin and I finally lost enough oil pressure to stop? Bike runs GREAT when it's cold.

This was the first long trip on the bike since getting it running.

My initial thoughts are that I may have stripped the oil pan drain plug and it's leaking from there as the spot I thought it was leaking from is actually clean and clear of oil.

I guess I am looking for advice or some confirmation that my oil pressure thoughts might be on target.

I have until Friday to try to get this fixed before i have to bail on a big ride this weekend...so any help is appreaciated!!!!

[dm_gsxr]

So what changes have you recently made? Changed the oil for instance.

Where exactly is the oil coming from? The oil plug, oil filter, oil filler, or other place on the engine?

What's the oil level when it's warm?

Carl

[rybo]

Hmmm.

Well we just had the clutch all apart, leakage from the seal on the side cover?

The loss of power thing may or may not be related to the oil leak, but it's odd they happened together.

Take pictures! and see if you can figure out where all the oil is coming from.

[DYNO]

After a day of hell...I just got home and as far as I can tell...I think the oil is coming from the cover :( I though it was the drain plug, but I can feel some wetness on the rearmost edge of the cover where all other places are dry (or at least tacky with dirty oil).

OK, when I say loss of power, after some thought...maybe the clutch is not engaging the gears properly. Which again takes me back to the oil...cause the bike runs like a champ when it's cold (approx. 30 minutes of riding has been fine so far). I was zooming along the highway, got off the throttle to slow down and change lanes and when i got back on it, RPMs shot to about 12K, but bike not really wanting to get out of it's own way.

Could I possibly have been given the wrong oil for the bike? Too thick? Too thin?

The bike problems were the least of my worries today so I am just trying to deal with it as it seems to be the easiest of my problems to fix right now.

My head is stumped and stuck on an oil problem due to it running fine when cold.

[Brat]

i dont think oil would have been an issue unless it wasnt motorcycle oil? you need to take it apart and start cleaning areas to see if a gasket might be bad somewere.

[Bueller]

Sounds clutch related. Motorcycle specific oil is over rated.

[rybo]

well,

I think there are two problems.

#1- oil leak
#2- clutch

They are related only in that the cover has to come off to get to the clutch. The oil leak will be easily fixed by heading to the shop and getting a new gasket for the cover. $10, 1/2 hour, problem solved.

The clutch is a different story. I know we got the clutch to engage before and that you just installed all new plates, so what's changed? The problem I helped you fix was actuator related, and I think that's working right now. When you changed the clutch did you also replace the springs? They may be getting weak and allowing the clutch to slip.

I agree with Bueller, motorcycle specific oil IS over rated, but if you put an oil in the bike that was labeled as "energy conserving" these oils contain friction modifiers that can cause a clutch to slip. You can find out if your oil has these by looking at the back of the bottle, there is a round logo there with the letters SAE in the middle. If anywhere in this round emblem the words "energy conserving" appear, then the oil may indeed be your problem.

Those are my initial thoughts.....

[DYNO]

Yeah, leak is not a biggie, can fix that in a few minutes.

I used regular oil from Auto Zone, Castrol or STP or something (sorry, long night heads a bit foggy)

When the bike is cold, like first 30 minutes of riding it is perfect, shifts great and no slipping. I remember yesterday having the thought that the clutch seems to have gotten "sloppy" after about 40 minutes on the bike. For me that meant not smooth shifting anymore and chatter when shifting.

I will check the oil when I get home, and make the effort to go grab some motorcycle specific oil and see what it does. Have to pull the cover which means draining the oil so may as well give the "correct" stuff a try and see what happens.

Will let you guys know tomorrow.

[DYNO]

Crap, I did not use the oil from Auto Zone....since I had wasted so much oil in trying to fix the clutch I had grabbed some cheap stuff from Wal-Mart.

Ugh!!!

[DYNO]

OK, oil that Auto Zone dude gave me is Castrol GTX, he said he used it in his Ninja as it had the least amount of additives and crap.

About to go to Wally and check the bottle that I used and see what it says.

Also, the oil I have is 20w50...according to the Clymers it meets all the specs for the suggested oil range for the bike.

Once I get back, will drain the oil, redo the gasket and let it set until about 11 or so, then tighten and dump the oil in unless someoen reports back with other suggestions.

[Clarkie]

OEM clutch?

[DYNO]

Yep

[DYNO]

Well the is it fix trip proved...it's not fixed :(

Rode fine while cold, no leaks (kept stopping to check)...but once the bike got warmed up (not hot overheating, but normal operating temp) the clutch started slipping and then it gave up the ghost...I could put the bike in any gear and release the lever and it just idles like it's in neutral.

I sat around, talked to a buddy on the phone for about 35 minutes and then rode home. Bike was fine.

There are now no leaks, Mobil 1 15w50 oil, new K&N Filter, new clutch plates.

Anyone have thoughts before Vickery gets to do their worst to me?

[rybo]

Yep.....I think there's still air in the clutch line. Engine gets warm, air expands, opens the clutch.

That's my guess....

[DYNO]

Yep.....I think there's still air in the clutch line. Engine gets warm, air expands, opens the clutch.

That's my guess....
Suggestions on the best way to remove said air? It seems to me that the air would have to be on the wrong side of the bleeder valve...as bleedign from the top has been useless. The only time I actually got air out of the line was when you were here pushing on that actuator rod.

[rybo]

Maybe try a mity vac? It's a vacuum bleeder. You can get one at most autoparts stores. They're about $30

[DYNO]

Funny, I was about to post up and ask if there is some way I could get something to suck the air back out.

Will have to wait until tomorrow evening...baseball all day with the kid.

Thanks for the suggestion :)

[Bueller]

I would think air in the line would make the clutch not dis-engage, sort of like air makes the brakes soft, air compresses very easily compared to fluid.
If you take the master cyl off of bar and hang it up, as straight up as possible and engage lever with a bungee or the like and leave it overnight, air will work it's way up and out into the reservoir.

[DYNO]

Will give that a try Bueller...thanks!

[Priller_Nate]

Something else to try that works great for bleeding, although doesn't sound like air in line to me (not a mechanic). I assume you have a hydraulic clutch? My Aprilia has a hydraulic clutch and it needs CONSTANT TLC, so I am a little experienced in this area. ;)

Goto a medical supply place and pick up a 30cc or 60 cc syringe. Then suck all the fluid from the reservoir, wrap a big towel around the reservoir and over tank, screen, etc. Then take one of the syringes suck up a good amount of FRESH brake fluid and inject it into the clutch slave's OPEN bleeder valve this will help to really push any big air bubbles up the line TO the clutch reservoir. Watch that it doesn't overfill the reservoir and make a mess. Another very effective technique to use in conjunction with this technique is to first close the bleeder valve on the slave, then take the clutch slave cylinder off (maybe 3 bolts?) and being careful, slowly tilt it to the side so that the slave piston slowly begins to come out (don't let it come out or you will have a HUGE mess!!) then with a little force (again watch the reservoir so as not to shoot fluid all over) press on the piston so as to get it back in the bore and it will push alot of air out up into the reservoir. You may need to add fluid to reservoir and then slowly release the piston and it wil suck fresh fluid instead of air back in. Then bolt it all back up and do one last regular bleed at the bleeder valves. I haven't had much luck with the mityvacs as they tend to allow air back into the system. YMMV though.

And the method Bueller mentioned does work well, but not as good as the PITA bleed method I just mentioned. I use the quickie method all the time, but don't even bother taking off the master cylinder. I just tie the lever to the bar with a piece of strap or wire or something.

[DYNO]

Well once I figured out how to use the mityvac I started seeing some bubbles. Not a lot, but some.

Priller, you said it doesnt sound like air in the line to you...might you have some other thoughts on this? At this point any ideas are appreciated. If I don't have it right by about Wednesday then I will be forced to take it to a shop :(

[DYNO]

Well, I gave it a second try with the mityvac and all of a sudden I started getting a ton of bubbles.

Cycled through about 3 complete refills of fluid, then went to the manual bleed and got a couple of big bubbles.

Just rode around my subdivision for about 30 minutes and no problems. Lever actualy feels tons better, was a little sloppy before, now its firm. Clutch did not slip at all either.

As soon as I find someone at home that isn't that far away, but far enough away, I will take it out for a good run...but have my fingers crossed that maybe Scott was right and it was air.

[Priller_Nate]

Cool hope it works when it is warmed all up. Now as for the leaking prob...you got that fixed?

[DYNO]

Oh yeah, the leak was easy...I made a crappy gasket when I put the cover on then didn't tighten the bolts as they should be. 100% my fault.

Removed cover, cleaned it up and redid the gasket and let it set over night...no leaks.

[DYNO]

Crap, Crap, Crap!!!!

I took the same route I did when this first happened and the problem cropped up at the same spot along my travels. :(

A buddy suggested I try replacing the lines in case they are cracked or leaking. Possible...seeing as how I had to replace all the fuel lines because they were brittle.

I just don't know. I bleed the line after the long ride while everything was still hot...got more bubbles.

Is there a difference between Dot 3 and Dot 4 brake fluid? Enough so that it might cause problems like I am experiencing?

[txrc51fatboy]

dot 3 and 4 are interchangeable. DONT USE DOT 5. you can use dot 5.1
Air in you line is not your problem
sounds like your clutch might be toast, when you clutch is cold you will still have some friction as it warms up no clutch.
replace clutch and i bet you problem is solved

[Bueller]

If you use the vacuum pump it will suck air it past the bleeder screw when the vacuum gets great enough, giving the illusion that you are getting air out of the system. I bled the crap out of my front brake on my KTM 300 with the pump and could never get it completely right until I did the gravity bleed. Still skeptical about the air thing, but if you are boiling the fluid it would expand, check routing of line move it away from and heat sources and use a quality fluid with a high boiling point.

[DYNO]

dot 3 and 4 are interchangeable. DONT USE DOT 5. you can use dot 5.1
Air in you line is not your problem
sounds like your clutch might be toast, when you clutch is cold you will still have some friction as it warms up no clutch.
replace clutch and i bet you problem is solved
I just replaced the plates.

[txrc51fatboy]

stupid questioni i know, dont take it wrong. are they in correctly? did you replace all the plates ie metal and fiber?

[Priller_Nate]

Try switching to some Motul RBF 600 racing brake fluid. It has a much higher boling point that what is available at Autozone, Pepboys, etc. It is pricey though but if your not bleeding every 2 days or so then might be worth it.

[DYNO]

stupid questioni i know, dont take it wrong. are they in correctly? did you replace all the plates ie metal and fiber?
Hey, that was my first thought when I did it. LOL!!!

I did it correctly, used some OEM plates/spacers/

I found an eBay ad that had a run down on how to tell if your clutch is toast...positive on alle three.


Clutch slips under heavy load. This is the most common clutch problem and easily fixed with our kit. You simply put the bike in 2nd gear, travel at 30MPH and give it a handful off throttle. Do the RPMs jump with no increase in acceleration? The fibers are worn down and need to be replaced.
The springs are old. This is actually a combination of bad METAL plates and bad springs. How to test? Fully adjust out the clutch lever so there is no slack. PULL IN THE CLUTCH LEVER. APPLY the front brake. With the bike in first gear, tap the starter button (do not start the bike) Did the bike lurch forward at all? Bad springs
Contaminated oil. This only applies to wet-clutch bikes, and there is nothing you can do except change the oil and replace the clutch. Make sure to use a high-quality motor oil, synthetic, synthetic blend or standard dino-oil are all fine with Barnett, but use the oil that the manufacturer suggests for your bike. Of the three clutch failures, this is the worst. It could cause the clutch basket to wear prematurely and sieze the motor at high RPM.#3: When I first got the bike and drained the oil, it was nasty black and smelled like it was burnt. Went along with the POs thoughts on the clutch being "burnt up".

Been reading up on slipper clutches and will probably order a kit to go full slipper clutch and hopefully fix this problem.

There is a Barnett kit on eBay for $105...includes plates, spacers, springs...good deal or not?

[Lomax]

I want to throw a suggestion in here as I just finished dealing with it. Make Sure that you have some freeplay on the clutch lever. If for some reason the master cylinder is not returning all the way, it can trap fluid. As this heats up, Like in about 30 miles, it will expand and let the clutch slip.

Just a thought.

Marc

[DYNO]

Foud this on ZX7 World:

"Your suppose to use a dial indicator to measure how much Free play you have using a spare transmision shaft mounted in a vise. Reality is who is going to do this?? Kawasaki provides for three different thicknesses of the steel plates. Therefore aftermarket clutch suppliers do not know what you need for your specific application. The easiest way to get around this is to use 5 2.3 steel plates and 2 2.0 steel plates. Forget the 2.6 steel plates. This setup provides for the best feel and brings the back tourqe limiter closer to racing apllications on downshiffting as well. The steel plates if you feel the edge of them with your finger will have one distinctively sharp edge and one smooth edge. Install them all in the same direction, though it doesnt matter wich way. This info is not in the shop manual,but is very important. Purchase a set of Barnett heavy duty clutch springs but only use three of them staggered every other one with a stock spring. This will increase your clutchs capacity without making the lever pull to hard. The stock clutch frcition plates work as well as aftermarket but are more pricey. When installing the friction plates the shop manual calls for aligning the last plates tangs offset from all the others. DO NOT DO THIS.
The overall thickness of the combined steel and friction plates will be less and the last friction plate will not be able to apply correct pressure to the stack. This is very important. Make sure you get the correct bolts back in the original holes when reinsatlling the cover as some are different lenghts and be carefull not to over tourqe as I have seen many stripped clutch cover bolts.Also you can reuse stock friction plates even if they are very discolored as long as they are not (WARPED). The discoloration can be cleaned off with scotchbrite and you can check for warp by placing them on a flate piece of glass, but i would just buy all new ones and get the 2.3s and 2.0s. HAVE FUN!"

I am thinking I will follow this guide, redo the clutch pack and see what happens.

I DID offset the last plate per the manual and as far as I recall I did line the steel plates all with the smooth edge out.

I plan on tearing in to the clutch this weekend if I can get plates shipped out or find them locally.

Anyone want to come watch, help, point and laugh?

[DYNO]

Well yesterday I replaced the steels, the frictions, the springs and even the bolts.

Took it out today and rode about 60 miles and everythng seems fine now. The last 4 fritction plates and the last 3 steels were BURNT!!! As in they were black, you could see the burn marks. Not sure if they were sticking or what.

Also, the bike now runs a good bit cooler. After an hour of riding the gauge never got up to where it was before (midline of the gauge).

No clue, but it works now and I am pretty dang hapy with myself :D

Thank you guys for all the help on this!!!