Group Riding Etiquette

[denverbusa]

Recent rides have raised questions in my mind, as well as some frustrations. Maybe it's just me... guess we'll find out. This is a good spot to add the cursory advice to read "THE PACE"

I tend to move around in the pack to see what others are doing. I will make these transitions after stops or when safe to do so. I have seen others make very bad passes from 3rd or 4th position to pass those ahead of them and the car holding everyone up. Should the lead riders have moved over to pass aswell it might not have been pretty.

When in traffic on a good road instead of just tailgating I tend to back off quite a ways so that I can at least get a good run through the corners as they come along. I have even had others in the group pass me on my right when doing this, right before the corner then they keep going slow. I will often go to the very back of the pack to do this without concerning others and can still have a good ride even from the back.

Tailgating but not wanting to pass. Back off bitch we are not drafting. If you start out 50 ft off of me and your are still there after the corner then we are going the same speed and should I need to brake hard you will have time to react safely. Otherwise you will be up my ass and neither one of want that.

Riding the same speed in both lanes up Central city parkway. If you move over others could pass if they wanted.

I have a lot more concerns but I have to hit the road. Been wanting to get this going for a while so I thought I would get it started before I head out for the next few days to Pagosa Springs on the Busa:hump:

Please add your thoughts or tell me if I am FOS. My goal is not to point out anyone just to start a conversation so we can all have a good time. With all the newer riders out on the rides this should be the place for this I hope. I learned the hard way over time and had a close call on the tailgating. Mark and I still joke about it now but it could have gone very bad.

if you are a newer rider and have a specific question about a situation air it up and maybe we can all learn how to handle it.

Later, Mark

[dm_gsxr]

I agree. On Sunday's ride I followed a few personal rules (and it's just me; I'm not trying to say anything):

1. Don't pass the ride leader. I never passed Pilot nor would I.

2. Give plenty of opportunity for others to pass before I go. In two places I gave the riders in front of me the chance to go first. When they didn't, I signaled, moved to the far left of the passing lane so if they decided to move over we wouldn't be in danger of crashing and then passed briskly.

3. When I know someone behind me should pass, I move over, slow down, and hand signal to them to pass. I did that to the guy on the orange/black gixxer and one rider moved over to the right and slowed in front of me (I moved over to the center lane but should have actually moved to the passing lane; my fault there).

Normally I'm going on less brisk group rides so this sort of situation doesn't normally come up. :)

Carl

[Bueller]

This is why I generally ride alone or with those I know well.

[pilot]

http://www.robreid.com/recipes/pacepicante.gif"Pick up the Pace."

Finding one's own position in the pack can be challenging. Now, when you go out for a ride with the usual suspects you have a good feel for who runs lead and who likes sweep. Usually on smaller groups, three to four bikes, the pace/position is fairly constant.

When it comes to larger groups (like last Sunday's run) the greyhound mentality starts to kick in and the pace becomes a race. When with this type of group I prefer to run at a pretty good clip (it keeps the pack spread out). But, I know a few riders that like to "rabbit" and get out in front once that segment is under way. The hounds then catch a sniff of this action and it is "off to the races". Or, should I say, "HERE COOOOMMMMEESSS RRRUUUSTY!!!"
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/jtr0057l.jpg

As for myself, I've found that "chasing" after quicker riders has pushed my skills envelope to higher levels.

When it comes to passing, I prefer to mention it at a break stop so people will keep and eye out for it. Then I like to see that they can notice me in there mirrors before I make a break for it.

When I'm being passed I like to use my left hand to give a little wave to the passing rider. If nothing else I'm acknowledging their actions and they know I"m most likely to stay put.

Corner entry is another issue. If the pack is tight (no time for sightseeing) everyone tends to key on the lead rider going into the turn. Just watch any GP race and you will see them pop up, like popcorn one at a time, as they head into the turn. For myself, I use a late braking. style. This can catch some riders off guard as I come into turns fairly hot and to the outside.

Once I'm at my turn point I'll flop the bike over quickly and get to my maximum lean angle as soon as possible. Now, for riders that don't have this type of style and like to smoothly go around a turn in a wide (see graceful) arc, this can spell trouble as they may need more run out on the exit. If these type of riders are following me and don't know of this quick turn-in technique it can spell trouble for them.

No matter what you do, remember that you must ride your ride and pay attention to what is happening to you first. Then, take a bit of that spare attention and acknowledge the other riders actions. Also, don't be afraid to talk with another rider about each others style. Communication is the key to a safer ride.

[jermag24]

I think communication is key. Anyone that opens it up to pass riders ahead, without signaling or following the suggestions above, is a danger.

I was riding once, in a large group in C. Springs. We were all slowing down to enter back into town, and some idiot in the back decides to open it up down the straight-away. This was on two lane road, with oncoming traffic. He blew past us so fast, and so close, I swear I felt his elbow rub mine. My first thought was "asshole squid", which I was right as he got really loose when he tried to slow down.

I also ride near the back. If the pack slows, I slow. I came to enjoy riding with others, not to race them.

[Nick_Ninja]

We had a close call on the SoWeCo ride. Open right sweeper with LOTS of sight distance. One rider, who was following a cage, decided to pass. I was positioned about 100 yds. behind and could see the whole scenario unfold. Rider begins to pass car with no clue to oncoming traffic (there was a vehicle approaching in the opposite direction). Fortunately the oncoming vehicle saw the rider and applied enough brake to avoid a collision. The rider had committed to the point of no return (there was NO run off further to the left) and had to brake as well and return to the original position behind the original vehicle.

There were two riders between me and the rider that was attempting to pass and made the error in judgment. Both riders began shaking their heads in unison as the offending rider began his pass. The witness of this incident had no issue with speaking up about the 'momentary laps of reasoning' and basically gave the squidly maneuver a solid :down:.

We all went to breakfast after and discussed some of our group members other riding faux pas. It turned into a learning experience for all those involved. :D

[mushin_man39]

A lot of good resources on the web.... this one not exactly sportbikes, but the rules should still apply. http://www.gwta.org/rider_ed/grpridinggd.htm

[UglyDogRacing]

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h320/bmax_69/fucktards-1.jpg

[tarded400]

This is a great thread! I usually ride alone or with one other person, and every time I go on a group ride it turns out to be stunt city or a penis contest.

[dm_gsxr]

As for myself, I've found that "chasing" after quicker riders has pushed my skills envelope to higher levels.

Just wanted to confirm this. I agree, especially on the track. I find myself being a little more conservative on the track if I'm one of just a few. But add a cart or some other riders, especially if they're faster/better and I'll be pushing my limits.

Also on Sunday's ride, I felt I was doing 7/10 as far as control is concerned. It was all very comfortable and well within my limits. Two items gave me a tiny tiny bit of pause.

1. I mentioned it to you, when you slowed a bit more than I expected as we entered the 25mph corners. I think that was what you were saying above in that you come in fast and then slow and lean way over. It was a bit of a surprise and I slowed down without issue :) (I also kept a little farther back after that :D ).

2. A long sweeping corner I was taking at a pretty high rate. I wasn't going too fast or anything but it was a little stomach _whoops_ until I felt under control again.

I look at the video and especially when I passed the radioactive hazard truck on the curve. The video looks especially bad, however I was able to see way around to the far curve so knew no one was coming.

Good info as always though.

Carl

[tarded400]

Whenever I try and follow a faster rider I end up going across lines or otherwise riding dangerously. I can ride way too fast for the street (read: fast enough I could get a pair of silver braclets) so whenever someone is pushing too hard or making me want to ride too fast I have to make myself slow down and let them go. Speed is for the speedway.

[mushin_man39]

Um, save it for the track? Enjoy the scenery? Don't be a retard and let testosterone rule your ride?

[TMP]

I always appreciate it when the pace setters (leaders) of a group ride keep it sane, it's not an ego showdown..... take that sh#t to the track. The main thing for everyone should be "ride your own ride".

[Matty]

a lot has to do whether your on the street/freeway or in the canyons.

back home i used to ride in huge ass groups all the time. on the streets if you don't know the people your are riding with, give some extra room. sometimes that doesn't work. usually it's all man for himself. in a perfect world people would all ride stagered. now when i'm rolling deep with my club, usually 65 bikes, we'll ride in 2x2 formation.

the canyons are a different story. it's good to know who the quick ones, the milder, and either slow or beginners are before you take off. so you don't run into the problems of people wanting and having to pass. if i'm stuck behind someone slower on long sweepers, i'll try to hug as much as the double yellow and pass them on the left, and i'll do it quick. if it's more tight, i usually get behind and to the side of them so they can either see me in their review mirrors or hopefully sence there's a bike behind them. if that doesn't work usually a little rev or honk of the horn does the trick.

if i see someone comming up behind me, i'll move to the right and let them go.

[Matty]

I always appreciate it when the pace setters (leaders) of a group ride keep it sane, it's not an ego showdown..... take that sh#t to the track. The main thing for everyone should be "ride your own ride".
you're right 100%. but some peoples pace might be sane to them and nutz to others. i used to ride with a group of 3 other guys and we would ride pretty quick, not track quick, canyon quick. but to others we were riding fast and insane.

[clustermagnet]

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h320/bmax_69/fucktards-1.jpg


+1 lol

[clustermagnet]

Recent rides have raised questions in my mind, as well as some frustrations. Maybe it's just me... guess we'll find out. This is a good spot to add the cursory advice to read "THE PACE"

I tend to move around in the pack to see what others are doing. I will make these transitions after stops or when safe to do so. I have seen others make very bad passes from 3rd or 4th position to pass those ahead of them and the car holding everyone up. Should the lead riders have moved over to pass aswell it might not have been pretty.

When in traffic on a good road instead of just tailgating I tend to back off quite a ways so that I can at least get a good run through the corners as they come along. I have even had others in the group pass me on my right when doing this, right before the corner then they keep going slow. I will often go to the very back of the pack to do this without concerning others and can still have a good ride even from the back.

Tailgating but not wanting to pass. Back off bitch we are not drafting. If you start out 50 ft off of me and your are still there after the corner then we are going the same speed and should I need to brake hard you will have time to react safely. Otherwise you will be up my ass and neither one of want that.

Riding the same speed in both lanes up Central city parkway. If you move over others could pass if they wanted.

I have a lot more concerns but I have to hit the road. Been wanting to get this going for a while so I thought I would get it started before I head out for the next few days to Pagosa Springs on the Busa:hump:

Please add your thoughts or tell me if I am FOS. My goal is not to point out anyone just to start a conversation so we can all have a good time. With all the newer riders out on the rides this should be the place for this I hope. I learned the hard way over time and had a close call on the tailgating. Mark and I still joke about it now but it could have gone very bad.

if you are a newer rider and have a specific question about a situation air it up and maybe we can all learn how to handle it.

Later, Mark

I like to ride with the guys that wheelie infront

[uberwench]

Don't be a retard and let testosterone rule your ride?

Suggestion. You could whip 'em out and measure 'em before the ride, then there's nothing to prove.

[DevilDuc]

Suggestion. You could whip 'em out and measure 'em before the ride, then there's nothing to prove.

Sheesh! Everyone knows that it is not the size of equipment that you have, but rather the way that you ride it that counts ...! :slappers:

[Scruff Dog]

I can honestly say that I have never been on a group ride where I didn't end up riding faster than I normally would riding alone. So why do we do it? I suppose its because of the beer or the lunch at the end of the ride.

For you new riders - its my opinon that the worst thing you can do is to get your feet wet on a group ride. Just get out there on your own and inch your way into riding skills.

I personally, would like to see a separate forum section for people who were dedicated to riding at the speed limit to occasionally 10 over.

[tarded400]

I would be up for that, or at least state the pace of the ride in the post. I can't afford to get another ticket or wreck again.

[mtnairlover]

It takes a whole lot to get into a group ride where you don't have a clue who the people are you are riding with...gah!

My suggestion would be that if someone does that (um me...last year, first big group ride with the N-C crew...scary), to maybe speak up and ask questions and let everyone know your current skill level. Also, find out who is at what level in the group so that maybe you can pick your position. I got stuck in back of the pack a whole lot last year, but I was quite happy about that. This is something that is not typically done on group rides at the pre-ride meet, even when someone new joins. I think it would be in the interest of all concerned to let the new guy know the various skill levels of all the riders.

One plus about riding in groups is that you tend to improve your skill level, inch by inch...well, that's what I did at least. Sometimes, it's hard to hold back and stay at a certain level, too, which is what got me into trouble last Labor Day. I pushed a tad too hard. But that's not the point. The point is, when in a group, do your best to not let the speed of other riders dictate how you ride. I still ride my own ride, but have improved immensely in my skill in the past year and can say that it is more than likely a result of going on group rides.

Short 'n sweet version?: Talk it up before you ride.

[crunch]

I usually ride alone as my weekend mornings are taken with family type stuff:banghead:
On the rides I have been on, I have started towards the back and slowly work my way through until I find riders who appear more comfortable. The problem with this is that I will not pass anybody I am not familiar with while cornering, you just never know how someone might react to it and I won't put them in that position. Some riders feel the have to haul ass down the straight roads between the corners. My usual solo ride will consist of riding the corners hard, but not hard enough that I need to be grabbing the binders at any point. In the straights, guys on thier bicycles are passing me as I'm not there to surpass my previous lap, just ride a fun ride with the corners.
One group ride that was particularly enjoyable was where denverbusa (Mark?) ended up leading, a guy on a green 996 chasing him, and I was following a guy on a 675. The pace was pretty quick and the guy (I'm horrible with names) on the 675 was a real smooth rider hardly grabbing the brakes and held real steady cornering speeds. I don't know the roads very well on the P2P ride, so having someone very smooth to follow made it an enjoyable ride.

[TMP]

I would be up for that, or at least state the pace of the ride in the postIt sux to go on a group ride that doesn't fit your skill level wether it be too fast or too slow... maybe collectively we could come up with some sort of rating system like the Homeland Security Levels... HAHAHAH LOL!!!!

I jacked their chart and made a similar version for "PACE". Now maybe some brief definitions of the categories relating to years of riding expereince, mph over, canyon carving experience........ I'm a photoshop addict and thought this was funny, and then thought this might actually be useful!?!?!?!?!? :loop:
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/shoonydog/PACING.jpg

[mtnairlover]

:lol: I love it...ha!

Now, what you need is how to identify what is "pro", "expert"...etc.

Too funny.

Edit: In talking with peeps the past coupla weeks, they woulda never guessed I've been riding 2 years, one of those years on my Zed...soooo...hmmm...

[TMP]

Exactly!!!!!!!! I'm not too good at that type of stuff so if anyone has some good ideas, feel free to share.

[mtnairlover]

Not too sure what to start with, but how about level of comfort in the twisties? And, personally, comfort doesn't come with how many years on 2 wheels. I'm all about mountain riding, so my input might be a tad limited, too.

[TMP]

Great idea, I can change up the chart any which way..... Maybe it should be called: "Twisties Comfort Zone" cuz the more you ride 'em the quicker your pace. Still needs some sort of definitions tho.

[dm_gsxr]

Just base it on the group ride leaders:

Pro - Passes Pilot on Pilot hosted group rides
Expert - Keeps up with Pilot or catches up in less than 2 minutes at the next break
Intermediate - Keeps up with Daemon/Mtnairlover or catches up in less than 2 minutes at the next break
Amateur - Keeps up with ChaiOnKaw
Noob - Hasn't been on a group ride yet

I used riders I've ridden with so feel free to substitute where you know better :D

Carl

[tarded400]

Experience is just one part of the pace. I used to drag knee regularly at the track, but in the canyons I choose not to because of the added dangers.

[TMP]

What about people that don't know these riders????
Noob is perfect - never been on a group ride.
More of that type of stuff would make this more universal.

[King Nothing]

It sux to go on a group ride that doesn't fit your skill level wether it be too fast or too slow... maybe collectively we could come up with some sort of rating system like the Homeland Security Levels... HAHAHAH LOL!!!!

I jacked their chart and made a similar version for "PACE". Now maybe some brief definitions of the categories relating to years of riding expereince, mph over, canyon carving experience........ I'm a photoshop addict and thought this was funny, and then thought this might actually be useful!?!?!?!?!? :loop:
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/shoonydog/PACING.jpgMan, I HAD to borrow your pic. :up:

[Nick_Ninja]

Just base it on the group ride leaders:

Pro - Passes Pilot on Pilot hosted group rides
Expert - Keeps up with Pilot or catches up in less than 2 minutes at the next break
<snip>

http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?p=192081#post192081


:think:

[mtnairlover]

You're gonna get lots of opinions, I can tell. And yep, I'm gonna add mine. No, you can't base levels on people, so I was thinking about the different group rides I've been on and thinking about how each rider has performed in the canyons/on the roads.

If you can shorten this up, maybe it might shine a better light. Some quick/comfortable riders go all out in the canyons, speeding up in the straights only to hit the brakes hard before the turns. Some comfy/quick riders keep an even pace on the straights and let off the throttle into the turn and back on the throttle before coming out of the turn. Some canyons, it's easy to do between 65 and 80 mph in, including the turns. Some canyons/more like sweepers, it's easy to do 85 mph up to over 100 mph. Then, there's switchbacks, like the ones at the top of Devil's Gulch Road out of Glen Haven, where I won't even do better then 20mph...it's just to freakin scary.

There's levels of comfort in all ranges, from comfy at speed limit, to comfy at 10mph over, to comfy at 20mph over and +. I would say that some riders have a cruiser attitude on the roads, whereas some riders have a racer attitude and then there's all those in between.

If peeps are comfy draggin knee on the roads/canyons, should they be considered "Pro"...IMO, nope. Draggin knee is for the track only. To me, someone who is "Pro" has been there, done that and refuses to let competition fuel his ride out on the open road.

I could go on and on and I'm betting lots of others would have their own spin on the chart as well. So, I guess I could say that I'm kinda stuck at this point.

[mtnairlover]

One addition to the "racer attitude" comment...I bumped into an MRA racer at the credit union in Loveland last year when my Zed still had its scars from my crash. His bike also had some road rash. He remarked that he did that in the canyons recently and said he shoulda known better than to try and "race" in the canyons and shoulda saved it for the track. That's the kind of person I consider "Pro"...someone who knows when to "race", but more than that, that he/she practices what they preach.

[Matty]

http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/groupRide.asp (http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/groupRide.asp)

excerpt:

1) The first thing you want to do is organize the ride. This can be as informal as standing around in a parking lot, or as complicated as a special meeting to hand out maps and cellphone numbers.

2) Remember that riding in a group does not mean you surrender any decision making when it comes to your safety. Ride your own ride, and don't go any faster than you feel comfortable going.

3) When picking your route and the stops you'll make along it, consider the stamina of the group, the experience of all the riders, and the limits of the motorcycles in the group. Remember, these are your friends. If it's going to be a long ride, be sure to have a few break stops along the way.

4) You'll need to communicate while on the ride, so make sure everyone knows the signals you'll use.

5) When creating your formation, it's wise to have your experienced riders at the lead and running sweep. Consider positioning the less experienced riders immediately behind the leader. This allows the front rider to adjust the pace if necessary.

6) Ideally, the sweep rider will have a cellphone to call for help if a motorcycle is disabled, or if there has been an accident.

7) If the goal of the ride is to keep the group together, the leader should only go at the pace of the least experienced rider.

8) While riding, don't fixate on the motorcycle in front of you. Instead, remember your basic training. Look well through the turn to where you want to go.

9) If the group is riding faster than you are comfortable with, let the sweep rider know you're dropping out and ride at your own pace. So you may reach your destination a few seconds behind the others, but you will get there, and that's what's important. Keep in mind, it's all about fun.

10) All riders are also responsible for making sure their motorcycles are mechanically up to the task. Before you even meet up with the group, make sure you've got plenty of fuel in the tank, and you've taken care of all those maintenance issues. Not sure what to check? Use T-CLOCK. You really don't want to be the reason for stopping the group for something mechanical you could have prevented.

11) If it's going to be a large group, consider establishing a buddy system among the riders, or divide the group into smaller five- or seven-rider packs. That way, if something goes wrong, you don't have 25 motorcycles sitting on the side of a busy highway. Also, smaller groups can more easily navigate through city streets.

12) On the road, motorcyclists should have at least a 2-second cushion in front and behind them. If you want to keep the group tight, consider a staggered formation. Leave enough room per lane so each rider can maneuver side-to-side if need be. Avoid side-by-side formations as they shrink your space cushion.

13) Trikes and sidecars should stay in the center of the lane, and should be given the same amount of cushion as if they were a car.

14) As turns get sharper, or as visibility decreases, move back to a single file formation. You'll also want to use single file when entering or exiting a highway, at toll booths, or when roads have a rough or questionable surface.

15) At intersections where you've come to a stop, tighten the formation to side-by-side to take up less space. As the light turns green, or when traffic opens up, the bike on the left proceeds through first.

16) Remember we share the road with many other vehicles, and it's against the law to block an intersection.

17) When parking, try to get the group off the roadway as quickly as possible. If you can, arrange in advance to have pull-through parking at your destination, or at the very least, make sure there is ample parking for your size group.

[Matty]

Go Fast... Safely
Riding a sportbike on the street is only as dangerous as you make it

Nick Ienatsch

Reprinted w/o permission as originally published in Sportbike, 2002.

Your phone rings and a guy you faintly remember from school invites you on a group sport ride to the cafe in a neighboring town. Do you go?
Many of you wouldn't. You've ridden with relative strangers before, and it's always been a crapshoot of stupid passes, blind-spot following distances, ill-timed wheelies and the constant impression of disaster waiting around the next corner. Perhaps one of your group rides has ended by the side of the road as you haul one of the gang up the embankment and then head home to get your truck. You thank your school friend, decline his invitation and ride alone the next day.
Don't get me wrong, riding alone is elixir for a motorcyclist's mind, but most would agree that riding with the right group beats riding alone any day. So how do you find the right group? You make it.

Communication is the key
Communication within a riding group takes two forms: verbal and physical. The verbal comes first, before the ride even starts. "Where are we going? Do you want to take the 120 cut-off or just run on the freeway to Hudson Street? Pat, why don't you lead because most of us have never been there before? Hey, be aware of the fact that my brake light bulb just burned out."
Keep talking. "Who wants to lead going out of Marysville? Okay, John, after you lead awhile, wave someone else by so you don't hog the lead. Whoever is leading when we get on that long downhill before the bridge, look out for radar. Let's swap the lead every 5 miles or so. Keep an eye on Todd because he's brand-new. And Todd, be mellow and ride your own pace. Treat that yellow centerline like a cliff."
Offer suggestions and opinions. "I think the best way to do this is to ride in a staggered formation with the leader on the left side of the lane. In the twisties, everyone uses the whole lane, but give the rider ahead of you some room, okay? When we get into town, close up the formation so we can all make the lights. When we get out on Highway 12 we might come up on slower traffic, so make sure each of us has a clear pass. Don't go just because the rider ahead of you goes. Remember what happened to Chuck."

From the mouth to the hand
Once the bikes are moving, verbal communication isn't particularly useful unless everyone is on CB or helmet-to-helmet radios. It's now up to the hands (or feet) to communicate vital information, such as hazards in the road, riding formations, etc. But no matter how great your hand signals get, don't forget to talk about problems and potential problems. I've always felt it's better to get things out in the open than to bite my tongue and regret it later. A good example is not mentioning another rider's careless passes, and that rider later causing an accident. I believe in saying it now, as tactfully as possible. If the rider takes offense and leaves, the problem is solved.
It's better to ride alone than with the wrong group.

Small corrections or a high-side
Constant communication about riding group problems and potential problems can be compared to sliding the rear tire of a motorcycle. As the tire breaks loose and you catch it immediately by making steering and throttle corrections, the slide stays small and quite controllable. If you ignore the initial slide, it gets bigger-and harder to control. Ignore it long enough, and the bike goes completely sideways and then regains traction to high-side you to the moon. Catch those slides quick and early. Talk all the time.
Certain rules will save lives and hassles. Like staying to the right of the centerline except to pass. Like passing only when you see that it's clear. Like limiting straight-line speed to a pre-set limit. Like following the leader. Like never passing a fellow group rider until you are signaled past on the left. Like waving to everyone who moves over for you on a mountain road. Like waiting for everyone on the straights, where speed is too easy and cops too plentiful.

Which brings us to The Pace
The Pace was invented one day when Motorcyclist magazine Editor Mitch Boehm and I were lost in the Santa Monica Mountains and hit upon a super-fun style of riding. We were both on the latest, greatest sportbikes that were equally at home on the racetrack, yet we both instinctively knew that racetrack speeds were deadly on the street.
The rhythm we fell into was cool on the straights and fun in the corners. After all, the most common solo streetbike crash comes from too much entrance speed, and a ton of straightaway speed is usually the reason the entrance is blown. Riders learn how to accelerate real well, but their braking and trailbraking techniques aren't up to par, resulting in a ruined and sometimes disastrous entrance.
When I analyzed our new pace, I saw that our straightaway speeds were relatively low, compared to what the bikes were capable of. Another reason for these slower speeds was our ticket situation, which wasn't particularly admirable. Think about it: Big speed usually happens in a straight line, and the police have that figured out. Our new pace took away that straight-line throttle overuse, and saved the fun for the corners, with occasional full-throttle blasts up freeway on-ramps or other relatively safe environments.
As The Pace permeated our riding, it rubbed off on the group we rode with. The straight sections became a chance to relax and actually look at the scenery a bit, but more importantly, reset the ranks of the group. We'd often use the straights to trade the lead or simply giggle about the last set of corners, or the next.
Because the lead changes frequently, the pace of the group does, too. Remember, if you can't follow the leader, no one will follow your lead. A slower leader just means you can relax and work on your riding techniques, while a quick leader means the straights will work perfectly to reform the group.
Rushing the entrance of corners just doesn't work. It doesn't work on the track, and it doesn't work on the street. By running real-world speed on the straight parts, the next corner doesn't come at you at speeds above your ability. In fact, you will enjoy street riding so much more when you eliminate the racetrack speeds. Trust me, I've been at the top of the AMA SuperTeams and 250cc Grand Prix ranks, and racetrack speed is simply not manageable on the street.
Let's face it, modern motorcycles are so blindingly fast that a few seconds of wide-open throttle generates triple-digit speeds. Speed alone isn't dangerous; if it was, everyone running at the Bonneville Salt Flats would die every year. However, speed adds drama to even small mistakes, and speed lessens the amount of time we have to react. American drivers don't expect a motorcycle to be traveling at super-legal speeds, meaning that the minivan that pulled into a motorcyclist's path may not have been a problem if the bike was traveling at sane speeds. Remember this simple truth: more speed, more problems.
A good way to regulate the speed of your group is to discuss speed limits and set a maximum speed. You might be on a road with some long, fast sections, but because a few of the turns are blind, it might not be prudent to traverse that section at 120 mph. At that speed, you're covering 176 feet every second-yikes! You might want to agree to run no more than 65 mph on the straight, boring stuff. Setting a speed limit helps keep the group intact and the pace sane. My survival and enjoyment (and love) of street riding comes from an adherence to this concept of controlled speed. Are you ready for another simple truth? You can't go fast everywhere, all the time.

[Matty]

This ain't a race
The street is for riding to breakfast with friends. Notice I wrote with friends, not against friends. Big, huge difference. The track is for racing, where there are cornerworkers, ambulances, no oncoming traffic, no gravel, no cops, no trees, no guardrails, no centerlines, no dogs, no deer. Get the picture?
Riding with friends means keeping an eye on them. If you haven't seen your buddy in the mirror for 2 miles or 2 minutes, slow down until you do. If everyone does this, the group will naturally stay together, and it will save valuable time in case someone does have a problem and needs help.
If you're riding with a group that makes every ride a race, get away from them right now because the smallest street accident is usually significantly more devastating than any racetrack crash, and riders running a race-pace on the street will crash. You don't want to be there when it happens.
I can guarantee you that I've heard every excuse for not racing, but when a street rider is pushing all the time, using a lot of motor and brakes and riding with a deliberately competitive attitude and then gives reasons for not racing, it's pure BS. Racetracks are available, race clubs are established and the competition is waiting. Once a rider discovers the speeds of the racetrack, the dangers of fast street riding will be put into perspective.
Insanely fast street riders are simply the riders willing to risk the most. On a track, the obstacles are known and consistent; the track doesn't change and few outside forces enter the picture unexpectedly. A stopwatch gauges speed and races determine the fastest man of the day. It's a finite world that rewards skill.
The street, however, is exactly the opposite. There are no rewards for speed, no consistency in the surroundings and outside forces are too close and too frequently changing. A racetrack settles the question of who's best, but racing on the street simply answers the question: Who really doesn't care what happens? My friend put it best when he said, "I only race for money and points." Those aren't available in the canyons.

Let me be clear
When you get right down to it, riders who race on the street yet won't race at the track are cowards. Perhaps they've been to the track and discovered that their brand of fast didn't hold a candle to what was available at the track. Perhaps they can't stand getting bested. Perhaps they're not willing to work on their riding. Perhaps they discovered that the purity of the track exposed all their riding flaws. Perhaps they like to be a bullying fish in a small pond. Whatever. The bottom line: If you're riding flat-out on the street, you must take it to the track. Don't be a coward.
Sorry to preach, but here's the problem. Our government wants to protect us from ourselves through helmet laws, seatbelt laws, airbag enforcement, speed limits ... and those saviors might decide to regulate motorcycling. And that will definitely hurt our sport. So, you hurting you actually hurts us all, and it's my feeling that big speed on the street is the primary culprit. So I preach a bit.
You'd preach, too, if a California Highway Patrolman told you to turn your bike around and leave the area.
That happened to me about 400 yards above the famous Rock Store in Malibu, California, because the cops were finally fed up with motorcycles racing up and down Mulholland Highway. They decided to simply close the road to all motorcycles, all day Sunday. As a motorcyclist, I felt the noose tightening. As a journalist, I decided to try and make a difference. The way I saw it, we could save ourselves or be regulated into cars. I hope The Pace gives you a way to enjoy a modern sportbike's incredible potential without threatening your life on every ride.
Your group should arrive at breakfast together. That's significant. Races finish first through last, but street rides shouldn't. Ours don't. Sitting in the mountains, sipping coffee with friends, looking at the blue sky over a sea of bikes... Heaven.

Excerpted from the forthcoming book, Sport Riding Techniques, by Nick Ienatsch, available in autumn 2002 from David Bull Publishing, www.bullpublishing.com (http://www.bullpublishing.com/)

[TMP]

Canyon riding gets better and better the smoother you get. I'm not too comfy in the super tight 15 mph twisties unless I'm going 15mph, but feel good on the 30mph curves going much faster. I like the idea of how fast the pace is going in relation to the posted speed limit (in canyons).... I saw a guy the other day on Deer Creek pull away from me in the tight twisties in 2 turns..... I ever did see him again. He was rollin like an Expert and I felt like an Amateur. :turtle: LOL!!!!!!!!!! I wouldn't want to be in the same group canyon ride with that guy 'til I get smoother and more confident.

If there are any better suggestions for the classes let them be known. Some people may not like Expert or Pro and there may be something more fitting.

[mtnairlover]

Sitting in the mountains, sipping coffee with friends, looking at the blue sky over a sea of bikes... Heaven.


:yes:

[Matty]

Canyon riding gets better and better the smoother you get. I'm not too comfy in the super tight 15 mph twisties unless I'm going 15mph, but feel good on the 30mph curves going much faster. I like the idea of how fast the pace is going in relation to the posted speed limit (in canyons)....



haven't had a chance to ride the canyons out here. but back home the rule of thumb was you should be able to double the posted recommended speed for a turn. ex. if the turn sign says 25 and you're about an intermediate or higher rider you should be able to do 50 no problem.

[clustermagnet]

well, as my riding "career" progresses, I find myself riding with less and less people

at first, i stayed away from the obvious "temp taggers","undressed","stunters" and "ruff riders"... which were obvious threat to everyone's well being...

then it moved to "anyone that rides in the city"... "canyon bashers only"... and only the 3 people i trusted... they are the only ones who could really keep up...

then the track came along... whooo hooo was i slow :D

... then i started hating the "street group"...

lap times kept dropping!

now i stay the fuk away from people with street plastics :D


i am sure the list is yet to groww... Im sure you pro racers hate the yellow backgrounds...


and the list is shrinking!!! unfortunately... each one of these "upgrades" came to me at some cost or another... either losing a dear friend... or simply watching other people whack off

and no... in no way i will ever think that "i am too good"... completely the opposite!! i will always be the first guy to help anyone out... its just this list above kept me alive and well for the past years... sorry if i've offended anyone

[Matty]

clustermagnet.

everyone has their own choice on who to ride with.

in the canyons, there's only a few people i ride with. like you, they're the only ones that i trust riding fast in the canyons with. but i also enjoy riding in big groups, and sometimes, i'd even rather just ride by myself.



what i'm wondering is? what did your comment below mean about the people in my club???




at first, i stayed away from the obvious "temp taggers","undressed","stunters" and "ruff riders"... which were obvious threat to everyone's well being...

[clustermagnet]

clustermagnet.

everyone has their own choice on who to ride with.

in the canyons, there's only a few people i ride with. like you, they're the only ones that i trust riding fast in the canyons with. but i also enjoy riding in big groups, and sometimes, i'd even rather just ride by myself.



what i'm wondering is? what did your comment below mean about the people in my club???


well, i certainly did not mean to offend anyone...

furthermore, its only a few bad apples that spoil things

but if you care to know...


this is why

http://www.coruffryders.com/gallery/files/3/1/DSC02637.JPG

(came from your site)

with that said... i have no problem with you guys doing what you do...

actually your community efforts are FUCKING AWESOME, and i wish more clubs would do the same you guys do...

i just chose not to ride on 1.) street 2.) with anyone not wearing gear ( and not just a helmet)

soooo, getting back to original topic...

[noskills]

The witness of this incident had no issue with speaking up about the 'momentary laps of reasoning' and basically gave the squidly maneuver a solid :down:.

Not sure if this was refering to me or not but I didn't mean to come off rude. My few years working the field taught me SUV vs. Bike is no good, and watching it happen is worse. Scared the crap out of me! My fear turned to poor attitude and came across as asshole. Sorry :oops:, I know I've done a few bonehead moves before.

[Nick_Ninja]

The witness of this incident had no issue with speaking up about the 'momentary laps of reasoning' and basically gave the squidly maneuver a solid :down:.

Not sure if this was refering to me or not but I didn't mean to come off rude. My few years working the field taught me SUV vs. Bike is no good, and watching it happen is worse. Scared the crap out of me! Me fear turned to poor attitude and came across as asshole. Sorry :oops:, I know I've done a few bonehead moves before.

Not you. Don't worry.

[Matty]

well, i certainly did not mean to offend anyone...

furthermore, its only a few bad apples that spoil things

but if you care to know...


this is why

http://www.coruffryders.com/gallery/files/3/1/DSC02637.JPG

(came from your site)

with that said... i have no problem with you guys doing what you do...

actually your community efforts are FUCKING AWESOME, and i wish more clubs would do the same you guys do...

i just chose not to ride on 1.) street 2.) with anyone not wearing gear ( and not just a helmet)

soooo, getting back to original topic...

Trust me... i'm not on here to start a fight or argument with anyone. i just moved out here last week, and i'm just looking for people to ride Canyons, Street, and Track with.

i wouldn't call them bad apples. it's their way of riding. they'd rather stunt than hit the track or the twisties.


depending on where people are riding i'm not to fond of people riding without gear on as well, however it's one's choice. trust me i come from california, and it's tripping me out seeing people riding without their lids on. 1)you'll never see me without one. 2) when it comes to canyons, you'll never see me without gear on.

but in the street. No. i won't always be covered head to toe in leather.


i too have been riding many years. and what i do and how i choose to ride, is what keeps me around to enjoy many more.

[Sortarican]

...In talking with peeps the past coupla weeks, they woulda never guessed I've been riding 2 years, one of those years on my Zed...soooo...hmmm...

You've been riding that long?
I would have guessed you just got the temp tags off.:slappers:

J/K,
I can recall riding at about the limit of my street comfort level to keep up with Cathy only to noticing she was balancing her checkbook and txt messaging friends on her cell while navigating a decreasing radius turn.:oops:
(Yes she's that quick...and yes, I'm that slow. :turtle:)

[Scruff Dog]

I believe the dangers of group riding simply boil down to the primitive instinct to keep up with the herd. You don't want to fall behind, nor do you want to slow up the riders behind you. It's easy to say "ride your own ride", but that's rarely going to happen when you're caught up in the moment. Throw in a machine that's constantly taunting you to give it it's head, and it's no wonder we read and hear about all of the accidents involved with the group ride.

A possible solution, clearly define the kind of ride your group is going to have. This should be based upon posted speed limits. The group is either going to ride the speed limit, or it's going to exceed it in various increments. Now, at least you know what you're getting yourself into. My two cents.

[tarded400]

I usually ride the twice the limit in corners rule too, but ever since I wrecked, I can't trust the tires on the street. I have to be on a track to lose the chicken strips.

[mtnairlover]

I can recall riding at about the limit of my street comfort level to keep up with Cathy only to noticing she was balancing her checkbook and txt messaging friends on her cell while navigating a decreasing radius turn.:oops:
(Yes she's that quick...and yes, I'm that slow. :turtle:)

You forgot about me turning around backwards while in that turn to take your close-up shots...sheesh! Do I need to remind you of everything?!

Ha...j/k.

I keep my hands on my handlebars at all times while riding...oh, wait, um...cept for when I'm relaxing with one hand off...oh, and then there's the shaking of the throttle hand after riding for 100 miles to get the cramping out...oh, and then...

Again...sorta kidding.

But, I do like those curves...most definitely.:hump:

I also like the post about communication being key in group rides.

[Bat]

A possible solution, clearly define the kind of ride your group is going to have. This should be based upon posted speed limits. The group is either going to ride the speed limit, or it's going to exceed it in various increments.

:imwithstupid:

[PharmerKyle]

:imwithstupid:
+19 to 24

... more than that's just asking for trouble.

[denverbusa]

WOW...
Great responses by all!

Even got the canyon -vs- stunters talking with no need to get Scott in here... excellent show!

Speed of a group ride or the pace will always be a question and I see no way of getting around that. I recall my first group ride and went a little faster than I should have but the comment was made to me "if you can keep up" well I did but that is why I remember several of the corners and the sensation in my stomach to this day. As oppossed to my comments of ride your own pace and we will gladly wait at ... I rarely set myself up as the ride leader but have been asked to and will take into consideration who is in the group when I lead.

I am looking for more input on how to handle situations that come up on a ride. Too fast is easy to handle. You go slower than the pack and if they don't want to wait then they are assholes and I wouldn't want to ride with them anyway.

Regarding Conoco departs:
When it is the usuals on the ride we often skip the talk, we all know where the destination is but don't have an organized leader. More of everyone just saying you go ahead... No you please... no really you lead. Has more to do with not wanting to be the first to get sprayed with the Radar:cry:

I will try to consolidate this into some form of single line items but I gotta do some work first to pay for having too much testosterone on Wolf Creek pass. :banghead:

[Nick_Ninja]

We (group of 10) rode Wolf Creek two weeks ago and had soooooo much fun :twisted:

[McVaaahhh]

Group riding in the canyons is probably one of my favorite activities, and at the same time one of my least-favorite activities.

I remember my first group ride about 2 years ago. It was the newb ride and it was raining. We went up through Golden Gate Canyon and I remember feeling nervous, but at the same time comfortable being at the back of the pack. Got some good advice on my riding (thanks Bob) and all in all had a great time.

Fast forward to the present day. I've been the Sunday ride leader more often than not lately and I feel pretty comfortable up there. I've read "The Pace" several times and that's really how I like to ride. I generally keep my pace at no more than 15 over (Never go faster than you can afford to get a ticket for) and keep the speeds up in the corners. I don't like going 100+ on public streets (oh, I have), it just doesn't have that same thrill for me as when I'm going 50 through a nice corner and getting out toward the edge of the tires. I've had several people thank me post-ride for a good pace.

Some observations/advice from many group rides I've been on:

1) WEAR YOUR GEAR. Not really been an issue in the past, but I have been on rides were some got a little too hot and the removal of gear began. Need to keep it on all the time.

2) RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE. This can not be mentioned often enough. Don't get in over your head. I will stop at every turn-off to make sure we have everyone and I will NEVER get irritated that I have to wait for you. I will get really pissed off if I have to go get my truck and trailer to pick up that piece of shit you just wrecked because you wanted to look cool and were in over your head.

3) Use your head. Don't make stupid passes that are completely unnecessary. I've seen people force passes only to continue to be stuck behind traffic. If there's a line of cars don't force it cause it's just not going to get you anywhere.

4) Keep spacing. When you're in the canyons keep a nice gap between you and the guy in front. I'm definitely guilty of this and have almost crashed a couple of times mid-corner when the guy in front had to check-up for one reason or another. You don't want to be the guy who crashes into the back of someone cause you were "drafting".



There's a lot more, but that's all I've got time for. Just remember, it's not a race out there. There's no trophy or trophy-girl waiting for you at the bottom of the canyon, there's only the rest of the group wondering when the hell you're going to quit being a jack-ass.

See ya on Sunday!

--Brian

[tarded400]

I always leave a HUGE gap between me and the next rider, even when I'm riding with people I trust. If they go down, I have plenty of time to avoid them and usually stop, and if they're going slower in a corner I don't nail them from behind. I see people trying to stick a nose in on the guy in front of them some times... I don't understand it.

[James]

It is hard to have riding etiquette in groups larger than 6. I think any more than that, and it is not possible to ride in one group with etiquette without being dangerous or cutting other motorists off while trying to stay in a close group.

[clustermagnet]

we should change this thread to : "Group Running Etiquette" aka... run from the popos

should you use the shoulder?