Greeley Yamaha

[=Captain America=]

Didnt see anything on the search....

Does anyone have any opinions about yamaha in greeley?
First time i went there i was flat out told by the sales "boy" (he looked 16 or so), that he wouldnt sell me an R6 even if i wanted one. :x :wtf:

I hear they are under new ownership now...any comments?

[919Guy]

My wife and I both bought our bikes in there, and they've always been good to deal with. I've seen that uppity punk over on the sportbike side, but never spoke to him. Go in and ask for Ryan Smith. He's a good guy...

Corey

[1000RR]

First time i went there i was flat out told by the sales "boy" (he looked 16 or so), that he wouldnt sell me an R6 even if i wanted one. :x :wtf:


...and his reasoning behind not earning some commission was what?

[firefghtr]

i would have kicked that little brats ass :guns:

[JohnS]

Whats your riding experience? When I was selling bikes I wouldn't sell and R6 to a new rider no matter what the commision.

[919pride]

Whats your riding experience? When I was selling bikes I wouldn't sell and R6 to a new rider no matter what the commision.

Sure you would probably sell him a R1....so what would you sell him?? Isn't it up to the customer what they want to buy?? I understand the whole I don't want you to kill yourself thing. But how would you gauage the riders ability??

[=Captain America=]

I cant believe your sticking up for this salesman...
:x

its none of his business, he doesnt know me, he doesnt know how i'd use it, and for all he knows i'm buying it for someone else. If you must know i've done some occasional dirtbike riding and and some occasional streetbike riding but i'm just now getting my m license---taking the class. oh yeah and i'm 26 if that matters to you :321:

Any other freedoms you'd like to remove from me???

[JohnS]

oh jesus settle down. My point was that everybody was quick to judge the salesmen without knowing the whole story.

btw if you walked in and I was the salesman and you told me your experience, age would have nothing to do with it. I'd recommend you buy a used bike first so when you dump your shiny new R6 in the driveway you won't have to kick your own ass.
Start on an older bike and then move your way up to a newer and faster bike you'll learn alot more that way. my .02 cents

But hey it is a free country why not just start on a R1.
:x

[CAMit...]

Don't let them scare you off....

While I do agree with the whole "start on a used or lesser bike and move up from there" thing, in the end it's your money, your life, your skin and your descision. You do what you think is best for you. I always have and haven't looked back...

[JohnS]

I agree with the above

[=Captain America=]

So your saying its ok for the salesman to judge me without "the whole story" thus resulting in my loss of freedom. But not ok for us to judge him even though i've told you all relevant info and our judgement has no effect on him. :wtf:

Sounds like you"ll be very satisfied "when" i drop my shiny new R6.
Thing is i'll take every precaution against it...and if it happens anyway i will have already accounted for the possibility. You've really assumed i'm quite the newb.

I've ridden an R1! (gasp, shock, the crime of it)...i dont want one, thats the point i still dont think you get.

[NineTwoFour]

So your saying its ok for the salesman to judge me without "the whole story" thus resulting in my loss of freedom. But not ok for us to judge him even though i've told you all relevant info and our judgement has no effect on him. :wtf:

Sounds like you"ll be very satisfied "when" i drop my shiny new R6.
Thing is i'll take every precaution against it...and if it happens anyway i will have already accounted for the possibility. You've really assumed i'm quite the newb.

I've ridden an R1! (gasp)...i dont want one, thats the point i still dont think you get.

Dude, pull your panties out of a bunch and take a Midol.

If you don't like how you were treated at that dealer... go to another one. :roll:

And yes, it is fair for the salesman to "judge" you. When you walk in the door they scope you out so they can get an idea whether you're in there day-dreaming or seriously interested in buying something. If they get the notion that you aren't going to buy anything within the near future, they are going to do something to get you to stop wasting their time.

Also... Some people, myself included, think it is inappropriate to sell a race-bike to a brand new rider. That doesn't mean that we are going to be "very satisfied" if you were to drop your bike, so stop being a drama-queen.

[=Captain America=]

:cry: sorry....but i did bother me...oh well. :cry:

[JohnS]

I'll try and make it short....

Middle of summer the dealership was packed with people. Customer claims he can ride buys an R6. Goes to ride it off the lot and almost dumps it. Rides down the street and loses it in the first corner, we run down and bring the bike back. $4000 in damage with .2 mile on the odometer. I'm sure he didn't pay that out of his pocket. Insurance was used. Boom all of a sudden insurance companies prices go up on the R6. I wonder why?

I'm not trying to be a dick. I don't ever want anyone to drop the bike they just bought but unless you have a few years of riding all the time under your belt chances are high you will dump it when you least expected. Usually when you think you got things figured out.

Find a different salesman at the same store if you really want to buy from them. I'm just trying to make you see his side. Maybe he didn't want to have to watch his new customer hurt a pretty bike a 1/2 block down the street. Worse yet maybe he didn't want to hear that you died on the bike he sold you! It's very possible he realized you weren't going to buy today and decided to blow you out of the store. who knows

sorry to be long winded

[=Captain America=]

Hey its cool...i understand your point more after hearing that, and would hate it if i knew i was selling something that was going to harm someone. It is common sense that some people should just never get on an R6 and i bet that makes things difficult at times for a dealership. :idea:

I may also understand your point better because i'm now and r6 owner!!!
I put about 150 cautious and speed tempting miles on mine this weekend and i have to say it takes maturity, discipline and skill. My buddy was egging me on as i followed his supercharged mustang, girls kept asking for rides, and some random guy on the street was doing 12 o'clock wheelies next to me and wanted me to go ride with him. I of course wanted to do all of the above (especially let the girls ride) but refused everybody. Giving the ladies a ride at this point for me is flat wrong, but they didnt seem to understand, and one who didnt know me well thought was being a huge dick.

Bottome line is; in only two days i had numerous opportunities to screw up and next weekend will be the same.
I'm glad i couldnt afford this bike when i was 18 8)

[=Captain America=]

i just wish the guy had been less rude....

[1000RR]

girls kept asking for rides

Man that never happens to me! I wonder if it's my ugly mug. Maybe its because my bike doesnt have a passenger seat or pegs. I suppose it could be the stern wife-like person I usually ride with, too.

Congrats on the new bike!

[R1ch]

I'll try and make it short....

Middle of summer the dealership was packed with people. Customer claims he can ride buys an R6. Goes to ride it off the lot and almost dumps it. Rides down the street and loses it in the first corner, we run down and bring the bike back. $4000 in damage with .2 mile on the odometer. I'm sure he didn't pay that out of his pocket. Insurance was used. Boom all of a sudden insurance companies prices go up on the R6. I wonder why?

I'm not trying to be a dick. I don't ever want anyone to drop the bike they just bought but unless you have a few years of riding all the time under your belt chances are high you will dump it when you least expected. Usually when you think you got things figured out.

Find a different salesman at the same store if you really want to buy from them. I'm just trying to make you see his side. Maybe he didn't want to have to watch his new customer hurt a pretty bike a 1/2 block down the street. Worse yet maybe he didn't want to hear that you died on the bike he sold you! It's very possible he realized you weren't going to buy today and decided to blow you out of the store. who knows

sorry to be long winded

Lets stir this pot...

I have to agree with JohnS. Although if the salesman came across and stated that he would absolutly not sell you anything on his floor he is not going to sell bikes and someone else will. But if he is looking out for you then he is doing his job.

The smart and wise thing to do when starting out and getting experience is to get a used bike for all the reasons stated above or if you sell a zx10 or a gsxr1000 the person may go kill themselves. There are people out there that have no experinece that could buy a new R1 and not wreck it in the first week but they are usually old farts that have learned from experience that you reasearch things, take it slow, practice in a parking lot. The snot nose, I already know everything kid is very likely to dump it just after he gets it.

As government tries to protect us from our selves with seatbelt and helmet law there may come a day when you won't be able buy an R6 or R1 unless you pass tests and get special licenses or maybe they will just restrict the hp down to 50hp to keep you from killing yourself... or crotch rocket bikes altogether. After all it's not the harley riders killing themselves staisticly speading, its the high hp racing bikes.

[R1ch]

Hey its cool...i understand your point more after hearing that, and would hate it if i knew i was selling something that was going to harm someone. It is common sense that some people should just never get on an R6 and i bet that makes things difficult at times for a dealership. :idea:

I may also understand your point better because i'm now and r6 owner!!!
I put about 150 cautious and speed tempting miles on mine this weekend and i have to say it takes maturity, discipline and skill. My buddy was egging me on as i followed his supercharged mustang, girls kept asking for rides, and some random guy on the street was doing 12 o'clock wheelies next to me and wanted me to go ride with him. I of course wanted to do all of the above (especially let the girls ride) but refused everybody. Giving the ladies a ride at this point for me is flat wrong, but they didnt seem to understand, and one who didnt know me well thought was being a huge dick.

Bottome line is; in only two days i had numerous opportunities to screw up and next weekend will be the same.
I'm glad i couldnt afford this bike when i was 18 8)

Wish there were more 18 yearolds out there like you.

[R1ch]

girls kept asking for rides

Man that never happens to me! I wonder if it's my ugly mug. Maybe its because my bike doesnt have a passenger seat or pegs. I suppose it could be the stern wife-like person I usually ride with, too.

Congrats on the new bike!

This has happened to me twice and I am no prize catch. Has to be the wife like person :D

[=Captain America=]

girls kept asking for rides

Man that never happens to me! I wonder if it's my ugly mug. Maybe its because my bike doesnt have a passenger seat or pegs. I suppose it could be the stern wife-like person I usually ride with, too.

Congrats on the new bike!

:lol:

thanks man

[1000RR]

Lets stir this pot...

I have to agree with JohnS. Although if the salesman came across and stated that he would absolutly not sell you anything on his floor he is not going to sell bikes and someone else will. But if he is looking out for you then he is doing his job.

The smart and wise thing to do when starting out and getting experience is to get a used bike for all the reasons stated above or if you sell a zx10 or a gsxr1000 the person may go kill themselves. There are people out there that have no experinece that could buy a new R1 and not wreck it in the first week but they are usually old farts that have learned from experience that you reasearch things, take it slow, practice in a parking lot. The snot nose, I already know everything kid is very likely to dump it just after he gets it.

As government tries to protect us from our selves with seatbelt and helmet law there may come a day when you won't be able buy an R6 or R1 unless you pass tests and get special licenses or maybe they will just restrict the hp down to 50hp to keep you from killing yourself... or crotch rocket bikes altogether. After all it's not the harley riders killing themselves staisticly speading, its the high hp racing bikes.

Ok, I'll bite.

The salesperson is not doing his job by looking out for the customer. His only job is to sell motorcycles to interested parties.

I would be willing to wager that if a customer who has been spurned in such a manner called Yamaha's US business office and expressed an appropriate amount of indignation about being treated this way, Yamaha would be on the phone with the shop and sharing some choice words with the manager, and possibly tacking on an incentive to buy a Yamaha elsewhere.

I don't have a pilots license, and have never flown beyond an "into to flying" class, yet I can walk in to an airplane sales establishment and walk away with title to a brand new Learjet. Anyone old enough to legally sign their name can purchase a car, regardless of whether or not they have a drivers license.

I'm no lawyer, but I would imagine that some legal case of discrimination could even made against the shop that refuses to sell publicly available goods to an individual based on some judgement call by the salesperson.

The government does get in the way occasionally with their safety regulations, but I don't think anyone wants to give that same power to Joe Smith at the Yamaha shop.

[=Captain America=]

It would be better if the guy said...."hey man you dont really sound ready for this bike, its your choice but i'd like to show you something else..etc etc"

Directly hearing from a much younger person in a condescending tone "I WOULDNT EVEN SELL YOU THIS BIKE BUD" just isnt right....i have a right to buy the bike.

I do understand where he is coming from and now that i own one i really understand, but there are better ways to do it. Sales are hard to make...all he had to do was keep the price excessive or keep busy with other people and avoid the sale.

I also want to mention that this was some time ago...and i have much more motorcyle experience/knowledge now. 8)

[R1ch]

Ok, I'll bite.

The salesperson is not doing his job by looking out for the customer. His only job is to sell motorcycles to interested parties.

I disagree, in every sales job I have had, you listen to the customers wants, needs, desires by asking QUESTIONS, this is how you drive the customer and no allow him to take control of the sale. You then reiterate what you have heard and show him what meets his needs. If you do not do this you will lose the sale. Questions such as, does this fullfill the need, do you like this, how do you feel about this. These questions are based around customer types. If you have taken any sales training you will know what I am talking about. Everytime the customer says yes make it more difficult for him to back out. If you are a good saleman you may find out he is a new rider and you have a used bike that has a much higher commission than even the new one, or in not commissioned sales, one the manager wants to move. Sorry, the salesmans job is to look out for the customer while moving him into something that is profitable. That is the business end. The moral end is if you sell some unexperinced young kid with lots of money an R1 and he kills himself on it, you are partly to blame, if you can live with that, fine.



I would be willing to wager that if a customer who has been spurned in such a manner called Yamaha's US business office and expressed an appropriate amount of indignation about being treated this way, Yamaha would be on the phone with the shop and sharing some choice words with the manager, and possibly tacking on an incentive to buy a Yamaha elsewhere.

If the customer was treated rudely I would agree with you but even Yamaha is concerned about the lawyers sueing bike manufactures for selling over powered motorcycles to young inexperienced riders. Even Judge Judy awarded damages against a motorcycle owner when he allowed a friend to ride his bike and she was injured on it. (Yes, I watch Judge Judy on occasion ) :roll:




I don't have a pilots license, and have never flown beyond an "into to flying" class, yet I can walk in to an airplane sales establishment and walk away with title to a brand new Learjet. Anyone old enough to legally sign their name can purchase a car, regardless of whether or not they have a drivers license.

I could be wrong on this one but I think you have to show a drives license and proof of insurance before you can drive that new car away. If you had cash, not sure about that one.

But dont get me wrong, I agree with you that you should have the freedom to buy any bike that you want. But in this nation, driving is not a right but a privilage, one that can be taken from you and if motorcycle manufactures continue to make motorcycles more powerfull which=dangerous the federal gov may start may start requiring special license or even make it illegal for manufactures to create bike like the ones we ride now. Just as they did with 2 stroke street bikes.





I'm no lawyer, but I would imagine that some legal case of discrimination could even made against the shop that refuses to sell publicly available goods to an individual based on some judgement call by the salesperson.


Which is why sales people help "steer" people into choices and it behoves Yamaha and the local dealership to steer inexperienced riders away from choices that could lead the to an accident on the street. It will increase insurance costs and could cause the feds to step in and take things away.

[1000RR]

In this case, I am not trying to defend or attack sales tactics in general. I am simply responding to a single and particular instance of really bad customer service.


Sorry, the salesmans job is to look out for the customer while moving him into something that is profitable.

No apology necessary! :D Again, in this case no questions were asked and the business generated no profit simply because there was no sale. The customer in question is now sitting on a new R6, so I would say he was certainly a motivated buyer.


in every sales job I have had, you listen to the customers wants, needs, desires by asking QUESTIONS, this is how you drive the customer and no allow him to take control of the sale. You then reiterate what you have heard and show him what meets his needs.

I must be a bad customer, I always try to take control of the sale. Must have been a lesson from my father, who was a 30 year car sales veteran. I will conceed that the above can be true for an uneducated buyer, but when I walk into a bike shop the conversation between me and sales is simply "I want THIS. Now, what are you going to do for me in order to make this sale?" The best judge of my needs is me!


even Yamaha is concerned about the lawyers sueing bike manufactures for selling over powered motorcycles to young inexperienced riders....The moral end is if you sell some unexperinced young kid with lots of money an R1 and he kills himself on it, you are partly to blame, if you can live with that, fine.

Yamaha is in no way liable for usage of their products, any more so than Mr. Glock, Mr. Ford or Mr. Popeil. The distributor is not liable either. I believe it is OUR responsibility to shield ourselves from our own stupidity, not a company's, a business's or a government's. Do you disagree?


If the customer was treated rudely I would agree with you

I believe "I WOULDNT EVEN SELL YOU THIS BIKE BUD" qualifies. Again, I am only concerning my part in this conversation with this one instance. I'm not attempting to discuss retail theory here.


Even Judge Judy awarded damages...

Judge Judy is hardly represents the law of the land. Just like good ol' Judge Wapner of my day, I am sure her judgements are actually paid from the show and as such they often make "exciting" and "controversial" rulings in order to provide entertainment.


I think you have to show a drives license and proof of insurance before you can drive that new car away. If you had cash, not sure about that one.

If you finance a car, yes you need insurance and thus a license in order to satify the lein holder. If you buy it outright, you only need a pen to sign the registration. Now driving it home is another story that the dealer doesn't concern themselves with. This is as it should be.


driving is not a right but a privilage

No argument here. I'm only discussing the right to buy whatever-the-heck-I-want, and it appears we agree.


Which is why sales people help "steer" people into choices and it behoves Yamaha and the local dealership to steer inexperienced riders...

Absolutely. Steer away but when the customer disagrees with the direction you are leading them, what legal or moral obligation does a salesperson have that gives them the right to simply deny someone the opportunity to purchase goods available for "everyone"? When did the customer cease to be always right? (/ducks)

Anyhoo, I think we agree on most (or all) points, its just I am discussing a more narrow scope than you may be.

[R1ch]

In this case, I am not trying to defend or attack sales tactics in general. I am simply responding to a single and particular instance of really bad customer service.

I did not see it that way You were making a generalized statement. You said "The salesperson is not doing his job by looking out for the customer. His only job is to sell motorcycles to interested parties." This appeared to be a generalized statement which is backed up by your second statement.




I must be a bad customer, I always try to take control of the sale

No just typicle and you should try to control the sale, that is why it is a battle, that is why people hate buying cars. That Granted there are differences between buying a car stereo or the car itself. But for the most part, they want to make as much money as they can and you want to get if for as cheap as you can.


Yamaha is in no way liable for usage of their products, any more so than Mr. Glock, Mr. Ford or Mr. Popeil. The distributor is not liable either. I believe it is OUR responsibility to shield ourselves from our own stupidity, not a company's, a business's or a government's. Do you disagree?

I would disagree. Many lawsuits have been won because short sighted companies believed this. They now try to cover themselves by placing stickers such as, this product is dangourous and if used incorrectly could cause loss of limb or death. I too believe it is OUR responsibility ABSOLUTELY. But unfortunatly it is not reality and because of the present laws. It is getting better. Colorado has put into place laws that protect ski resorts from law suits. If you don't want to die skiing, don't ski but if you do, you cans sue. I am all for this. I agree with you as well the motorcycle manufactures should not be responsible. But the other side can make an argument that if you make a motorcycle that produces too much hp and is not stable and people are dying due to the fact, this is negligence. I know people that WON law suits against Yamaha on it's VMAX for being over powered, over weight for the braking systems. The HP went down, the forks got bigger, the brakes became dual caliper, the head shake was minimized and the lawsuits went away.


If the customer was treated rudely I would agree with you

I believe "I WOULDNT EVEN SELL YOU THIS BIKE BUD" qualifies. Again, I am only concerning my part in this conversation with this one instance. I'm not attempting to discuss retail theory here.

My understanding was we did not have the whole story..


Even Judge Judy awarded damages...

Judge Judy is hardly represents the law of the land. Just like good ol' Judge Wapner of my day, I am sure her judgements are actually paid from the show and as such they often make "exciting" and "controversial" rulings in order to provide entertainment.

I disagree here, she uses small claims court law for her area. I do think that judgements are at here discression


driving is not a right but a privilage

No argument here. I'm only discussing the right to buy whatever-the-heck-I-want, and it appears we agree.

Yep


Which is why sales people help "steer" people into choices and it behoves Yamaha and the local dealership to steer inexperienced riders...

Absolutely. Steer away but when the customer disagrees with the direction you are leading them, what legal or moral obligation does a salesperson have that gives them the right to simply deny someone the opportunity to purchase goods available for "everyone"? When did the customer cease to be always right? (/ducks)

I agree with you in theory, but in practice, the dealership just like Dennys can refuse sales and service to anyone. They do invite a lawsuit if you could prove prejudice they may have to pay but if the R6 guy took them to court and he was married, white, hetrosexual he would have little grounds for a suit.


Anyhoo, I think we agree on most (or all) points, its just I am discussing a more narrow scope than you may be.

And maybe I took your first statement wrong. So for the most part we agree. Unfortunatly the Fed gov and liberals always seem to want to take away our freedoms.

[NZ Darren]

Hey R1ch, are you responding to your own quotes?

Even disagreeing with yourself?

Or is this a new personality you have? ;)

[919pride]

this is out of control......enough already

[mikesf4i]

My wifes cousin was on Judge Judy . He was told what to say and no it didnt match what really happened. Also the tv show paid for what the judgement amount was. So yes its just a tv show. Oh yea he'll be on "Texas justice " soon also.

[JohnS]

Wow good discussion with noone getting pissed. I like this! :)

I was never discussing anything legal here. I'll admit I've probably sold overpowered bikes to under experienced riders but I always tried to lead them to something else. I damn sure made them buy a helmet to go with it. Anyways I think after selling bikes a while it became more of a moral issue with me. I had bosses try to tell me to get them on the R1 but I refused. I sold Jessica (r.i.p.) her SV650. It's not an over powered bike and she had experience starting with a 500 but very bad things still happened which probably could have happened on a 250. For me anyways it became more personal selling bikes. It's a bigger responsibility than most people think. Maybe thats why after 2 years in the business my sales fell flat.

Why do you think laws are soo strict on ATV sales with anyone under the age of 16? Too many kids died. Example.. if your 15 yrs old and your as big as most full grown adults you still can't ride a big atv. If a parent comes into the dealership and asks for a good ATV for the 15 yr old son from that point on you are not legally allowed to sell them a large machine (anything over 80cc) Funny thing is you can get whatever MX bike you like. 450f no problem.

I think i went off topic :P

oh yeah and if the guy was being an ass thats when you just go over his head.

and Congrats on the new bike!!!


A point to my post? I don't have one! :o :lol:

[R1ch]

Hey R1ch, are you responding to your own quotes?

Even disagreeing with yourself?

Or is this a new personality you have? ;

We don't talk to ourselves do we?

No UR1 makes us talk to ourselves.

I don't talks to myselfs

Yes you do. No I don't :argue:

[R1ch]

Example.. if your 15 yrs old and your as big as most full grown adults you still can't ride a big atv. If a parent comes into the dealership and asks for a good ATV for the 15 yr old son from that point on you are not legally allowed to sell them a large machine (anything over 80cc) Funny thing is you can get whatever MX bike you like. 450f no problem.

Isn't that a riot. Hey little Johnny boy, you can't ride an atv so. Hmm. Lets get you a Kawasaki KX500 dirt bike, thats legal. You should be riding that baby in no time... :roll:

[R1ch]

My wifes cousin was on Judge Judy . He was told what to say and no it didnt match what really happened. Also the tv show paid for what the judgement amount was. So yes its just a tv show. Oh yea he'll be on "Texas justice " soon also.

Well that wasn't what I was told but I will believe your reference. It seems logical that it is a tv show. But those people do a pretty good job of acting stupid and remembering the script. Some of that stuff is so bizzare and stupid I find it difficult to believe some producer made it up. But stranger things have happened.

[919pride]

Example.. if your 15 yrs old and your as big as most full grown adults you still can't ride a big atv. If a parent comes into the dealership and asks for a good ATV for the 15 yr old son from that point on you are not legally allowed to sell them a large machine (anything over 80cc) Funny thing is you can get whatever MX bike you like. 450f no problem.

Isn't that a riot. Hey little Johnny boy, you can't ride an atv so. Hmm. Lets get you a Kawasaki KX500 dirt bike, thats legal. You should be riding that baby in no time... :roll:

yeah that was dumb..thanks

[AirAssault]

oh jesus settle down. My point was that everybody was quick to judge the salesmen without knowing the whole story.

btw if you walked in and I was the salesman and you told me your experience, age would have nothing to do with it. I'd recommend you buy a used bike first so when you dump your shiny new R6 in the driveway you won't have to kick your own ass.
Start on an older bike and then move your way up to a newer and faster bike you'll learn alot more that way. my .02 cents

But hey it is a free country why not just start on a R1.
:x
Not to get on your sheit but..... If I was a first time rider, and wanted the most powerful bike on the planet that is up to me. It is not up to the sales person what bike I buy. If you wouldn't sell it to me, your manager sure would, and if they didn't want my money some other bike shop would.

[Hoopty]

I wouldn't sell a newbie it either, but that's just me (and JohnS ;) ). I wouldn't want to feel responsible for some idiot's death, not to mention the jack in rates for said accident. Take your money elsewhere then, let someone else put the nails in your coffin. :)

[JohnS]

Funny how ya just can't win.

Everyone gets mad when sales people sell big bikes to newbies and everyone gets mad when you won't sell a big bike to a newbie.

Damned if ya do and don't.

I'd rather sleep at night than recieve the $40-$60 mini commision you get for selling a bike to someone that beats you up on price.