Oil and Filter Question

[El Gato 750R]

Can someone tell me the difference between a Suzuki OEM oil filter and an aftermarket filter such as a K&N filter? How about the different brands of oil or semi synthetic vs. 100% synthetic (which is better)?

Thanks - El Gato

[Desmo]

Hey man I would suggest staying with the OEM filter, unless you have some engine work that requires a different filter… as far as oil I would suggest Mobil 1 synthetic(100%)… unless you have the big bucks to buy the motorcycle oil. I usually change my oil a lot, so I don’t see then need to spend the big buck on fancy oil.. I stick with the Mobil 1 and the OEM filter.. also remember if your changing the oil your self.. to replace the crush washers .. they are a small thin washer that goes between the oil plug and the engine case.. I’m no expert but that has always worked for me..

[Anonymous]

Well, Gramps is hands down our resident expert on filters so I will let him field that one.

Differences in oil types ... well, one is a mix of petroleum and synthetic (for the "purists" who want the good stuff a synthetic oil gives). Synthetic is just that - 100% man-made, nothing sucked out of the ground. Most of the best synthetic oils are naturally the most expensive - Silkolene, Motul, Royal Purple. I've been hearing things in the grapevine so to speak about Mobil-1 MX4T and to stay away from it, as their quality has gone down. One of the best oils you can get is actually relatively low cost, the Amsoil high-perf motorcycle oil has been shown to do even better than the Silkolene stuff.

For a semi-syn, I've used the Castrol Actevo 10W40 oil with good results in my superhawk, though it's on Silkolene full synthetic now and will be going to Amsoil at my next change.

Oil is one of the more hotly debated topics on bike care, so I am trying to cut out as much BS as I can here and just tell it to you like I know it to be. Gramps (Tom) can do the same on filters hopefully, and we can wind up with a good bike tech thread on oil instead of the "my oil can beat up your oil" battles that normally happen.

Oh, moving this to bike tech too. ;)

[NZ Darren]

If you are using Mobil 1 make sure you get the one with the red cap, as it does not have the energy conserving additives the others have.
As for Filter OEM, Mobile 1, K&N.... whatever, just don't use Fram.

[Lel]

Mobil 1 MX4T fully synth is the way to go.

Otherwise go with the Mobil 1 full synth auto oil.

As far as filters, stick w/ oem, or go w/ a scotts cleanable filter (ie 1 filter forever) Frams blow off valve sucks, they can often blow w/o a plogged filter (from only high pressure) and will then cause there to be no point in having the filter. You can only filter down to a certain ppm so when they say things like 'can filter better by going to blah blah blah' it doesnt matter, everyone is already as small as it can.

lel

[Mel]

I always do OEM filter with a full SYnthetic oil (castrol Syntec and Mobil 1 are readily available at any Checker or Pep Boys).

[El Gato 750R]

Thanks for the info, I bought silkolene regular non-synthetic oil to air on the side of caution. I normally change the oil about every 1k so I am hoping that this will also be a positive in not allow the oil to break down to much.

It sounds like the OEM filter is the way to go, I just wanted to see if I was going to get any better protection by going with something like a K&N or an upgraded filter.

Looking forward to getting some feedback from Gramps

Felix - El Gato

[Bertha]

Looking forward to getting some feedback from Gramps

Felix - El Gato


More like 2 pages of info you NEVER knew about oil and filters... :) it's good shyt tho...

BTW Good to see Gramps and Wify on Weds!

[~Barn~]

I *Love* my Scott's filter. It's stainless, washable, and reusable.

It has great filtering mesh, as Gixxerjarhead and Jmetz can attest to. They helped me with my first change.

And honestly, the built in magnet grabbed all the debris (seemingly), before it even reached the screens.

It's spendy, but it will pay for itself.

As far as oil, I use Yamasauce, or whatever Brian has on-hand at TK. =)

[Quick636]

I'll give you the short version of what Tom is going to say :lol:

K&N sucks... they have great marketing but an inferior product. Kawasaki, yamaha, suzuki etc. don't make their own filters, they buy them from someone else. One of the best on the market are Wix filters, bought at Carquest or Napa. Twice the filter for half the price, works for me....

[lifeon2]

As a mechanic I can definitly tell you there is one difference between car oil and bike oil....the price they are the same dam thing buy the car oil or get screwed on the price thats about that oh and use napa gold filters they are cheaper than oem and better christ I remember some cycle monkey at a dealership trying to tell me some b.s. about longer polymers in bike oil

if you need proof here is MCN's test results http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm

[Gramps]

OK
I'm finally on here to give you my take on filters.

OE filters are a gamble. How many of you guys think that any manufacturer actually make filters?

C'mon raise your hands :D

There is not one bike or car manufacturer that actually produce their own filter. So they go find the filter they can make the most money on when they resale them. Simple bottom line type buisness stuff. They buy a cheap filter so they can make more money.

Don't be fooled.

Scott's are junk. They are about half the filtration for twice the price. Who wants to clean a dirty filter anyway? Why do you think everyone uses spin on filters. Easier and cleaner. Plus I like the insurance of putting a clean filter on and not trusting myself to clean an old one. Can you imagine a bunch of CSC guys and Barn drinking and having a big time and trying to get an oil filter clean! :lol: Also something to think about is that the particles that do dmage to your engine you can't see without a microscope. How then do you know you got the filter clean. I think the guys who like the Scott's filter just like the idea that they have a fancy peice on there bike. Kind of like all the Harley guys wear those Fancy bandanas and chaps because they like the idea. Neither one does a good job, or really does anything at all. :lol:

In conclusion go to a reputable parts store and buy yourself a good filter made by a company that stays in buisness by manufacturing filters. For example : WIX, (NAPA,CARQUEST),

I can spout out facts for ya if you want me to, just let me know.

:D

[Quick636]

I was trying to save you some time typing there Thomas... :lol:

Personally I like Fram filters. I love the idea of soggy cardboard floating around in my motor :D

[~Barn~]

I think the guys who like the Scott's filter just like the idea that they have a fancy peice on there bike.

Well that and...

A.) I'll never have to spend another red-cent on an oil filter for a bike that is certainly going to see it's fair share. (I'm averaging about 2000 miles a month for those of you keeping score at home).

B.) It may not be the best filter on the world, but it works.

C.) I'd be willing to bet that in the lifetime I own my bike, I don't experience any tramatic failure of componentry, due to debris in my oil.

and D.) Did I mention it's the last filter I'll ever buy for this bike?..... Ever?...

What's a decent oil filter cost anyway?... 11, 12 bucks?... At the rate I'm going, I'd probably be getting 2 filters for every three month period, so I'm buying about 5 or so filters per riding season. Maybe an additional 1 during the winter months, so $72.00 a year plus tax.... Over 4 years, you're looking at $300.00+ in oil filters alone.

My Scotts cost me all of $100.00 w/ tax. Please also revist "B." and "C." above. They are crucial to my take on this whole question.

;)

[~Barn~]

And for those of you who do not buy a Scott's or other reusable filter.... Do yourself a favor and buy the WIX ones. I'm almost certain that Tom know what he is talking about. He was just a little emotional when he mentioned the whole "junk" thing. :P

[Anonymous]

And for those of you who do not buy a Scott's or other reusable filter.... Do yourself a favor and buy the WIX ones. I'm almost certain that Tom know what he is talking about. He was just a little emotional when he mentioned the whole "junk" thing. :P

I'm quite certain that Tom knows what he was talking about. And I'm pretty sure he wasn't emotional, but rather was quoting fact. The Scott's filters are convenient, and might save some money, and certainly look the business - but personally I'd rather just buy the best thing I can get.

And while you might not see "catastrophic failure", the potential is there with a filter that lets a bunch of crap through or has the possibility of not being cleaned. But you will wear down components faster, and lose power faster over time.

It's your call.

And as for the whole car vs bike oil debate ... well, why buy bike oil at all? Because some car oils DO have friction modifying additives in them, which cause slippage in wet clutches. And some car oils don't - hence why some car oils work in a bike just fine. But you really never know since the products typically don't tell you. What you get with motorcycle oil, is the assurance that what you're buying is going to be made for that application. And kids ... good bike oil isn't THAT expensive. Is Silkolene race oil? Well yeah - but there is no reason to run full-on race oil in a street bike.

[Quick636]

One more wrench to throw in the pile...

You say that you don't expect a catastrophic failure while YOU own the bike... what about the next guy? Hell, it could be someone you know that ends up with your bike next.

That attitude right there is why I will never buy a used bike again.

[Anonymous]

Of course, the most important thing to remember when purchasing a used bike (as I've apparently discovered) is making sure the oil PUMP is still in the thing. Best oil in the world won't overcome that one... :roll:

[Quick636]

:lol:

Something like that could only happen to you Ralph.

Just think, by the time you are done you'll have a brand new bike!

[Coloradoray]

I run Shell Rotella T dino; about $7 per gallon at WalMart. Does not have the friction modifiers. I ran it for about 55k in my last ST1100, and have been running it in my SuperChicken for 4k with no ill effects. Many of the ST1100 guys have been running it for years, and have had no oil related issues. Cheap enough to replace every 3k, without costing an arm and a leg. If you must have synth, Shell Rotella T synth in the blue bottle is also a great oil.

[Anonymous]

:lol:

Something like that could only happen to you Ralph.

Just think, by the time you are done you'll have a brand new bike!

Yeah, I pulled it all apart this weekend. Crank looks ok other that a little bluing on the drive gear, and it'll need new bearings for sure.

On the plus side ... my new oil filter is rather clean! :lol:

[~Barn~]

One more wrench to throw in the pile...

You say that you don't expect a catastrophic failure while YOU own the bike... what about the next guy? Hell, it could be someone you know that ends up with your bike next.

That attitude right there is why I will never buy a used bike again.
True, true... But I don't feel I'm neglecting the bike in anyway, doing scheduled maintenance with this part. (?)

I mean.... It's not like Scott's is not a reputable company.

And Ralph, I'm sure you're right about the parasitic loss of power under the scenario that you explain... But I certainly don't think that the Scott's piece is "a filter that lets a bunch of crap through". Everything I've read about it. (If even exaggerated), seems to atleast put it on par with good oil filters, if not above-average ones. And again, I'm not saying it's god's gift to oil filters. It just has a lot of "pros" to me.

After all, Bryan and Bart both had good things to say about it. I trust their opinions to at least not put me onto something that is substandard equipment. If you think that it's fact that the part is junk... Well.. I consider myself warned.

At least as much as I consider myself assured (by B & B) that it is not junk.

You're blissfully unconcerned guinea-pig.

[Gramps]

hey fellas just afew more things


the scotts filter, from information on their website, says that it is a 35 micron filter

WIX is a 9 micron filter at absolute testing

most of the motorcyle manufacturers that i have read info on recommend 13 or lower, Barn is officially warned :lol:


with this info in front of you just realize that motorcycle filters as well as light duty auto filters, are pretty over engineered at this point. There are only a few real bad products on the market"Junk".

It is hard for me to even look at a reusable as a serious filter. There is no possible way you can tell me if it is clean or not. If it was doing it's job at a peak level ,you would not be able to get it clean no matter what you did.

I'll leave you with a NASCAR saying," it's always fastest right before it blows up".

:lol: :lol:

[Gramps]

oh yeah Barn

good oil filters about $3.00

do your math again sweet pea

:D

[Wahooman]

Barn you are still my friend :P

[~Barn~]

You all should be happy that I even change my oil. :lol:

[Anonymous]

hey fellas just afew more things


the scotts filter, from information on their website, says that it is a 35 micron filter

WIX is a 9 micron filter at absolute testing

most of the motorcyle manufacturers that i have read info on recommend 13 or lower, Barn is officially warned :lol:


Just curious (especially since I have no idea who really makes them), but to what level do "OEM" filters typically catch debris? I assume they're all really about the same, and are probably sub-13-micron if they sell them for their own bikes' use...

And Barn, yeah if you're able to see at a microscopic level you let us know. Otherwise you can't really clean out particles that small - water isn't going to get them out completely, and from the sounds of it most of the small stuff isn't even being caught by your filter if it goes to 35 microns. (those pesky dirt particles are way smaller than that.) So, you'll catch the pieces you can see like engine metal and other stuff - which is certainly good since you don't want that getting into the oil passages or journals - but my guess is, your oil is going to look like shit pretty quickly.

Actually when you do your next oil change please let me know - I'd like to be there. I want to catch some of it and send it in for oil analysis. Then I will actually pay for you to use a Wix filter for 3000 miles, and get that oil analyzed at the end (would request that you use the same kind of oil, so that we have a constant to go from here). Curious to see the Scotts vs Wix difference in hard numbers. Sound good to you?

[~Barn~]

Sound good to you?

I'm on board. Can you help me change it sometime soon? I'm due.

We can do the Wix first, and then the Scotts, so I make sure and get as close to the same mileage on the oil.

I'm totally interested to see this also.

[Anonymous]

Yup. Tom let me know what a filter for Mr Clean's 04 R1 will cost me for this little experiment. Barn go get enough oil for 2 changes. How long will 3k miles take you (so I know how long I have to get the oil analysis kits)?

[~Barn~]

Yup. Tom let me know what a filter for Mr Clean's 04 R1 will cost me for this little experiment. Barn go get enough oil for 2 changes. How long will 3k miles take you (so I know how long I have to get the oil analysis kits)?

I'll swing by TK and get me some Yamasauce soon. I imagine I can get 3k done in a month and 1/2 or so.

[~Barn~]

Yo Ralph... the oil is changed. Regular TK Silkolene (yellow). Anyway... I'll let you know when 3k is up and you can get the Wix filter and your lab kit.

Just for kicks, I'm gonna go to TK now and put Brit back up on the Dyno. See if her 151.7 is gonna stand from break-in.

Be back shortly.

[FZRguy]

As for oil filters, I’ve been using HiFlo (list is 6.95). And everything that I’ve read re oil says to avoid running oil designed for cars in your motorcycle b/c it’s not engineered to live inside a tranny, which will break it down much faster than oil specifically for bikes.

[Gramps]

i can't comment on hiflo filtro

i know they are offshore but i don't have any info on them


i'll let ya know on the filter Ralph

[Anonymous]

As for oil filters, I’ve been using HiFlo (list is 6.95). And everything that I’ve read re oil says to avoid running oil designed for cars in your motorcycle b/c it’s not engineered to live inside a tranny, which will break it down much faster than oil specifically for bikes.

That's not true. Basically the reason not to run car oil in a bike, is that some of them have friction modifiers which can cause the clutch in a wet-plate system like most bikes have to slip. Tranny gears don't care one way or the other. Basically it's not always easy (or possible) to tell if the car oil you're looking at has these modifiers, so by getting bike oil you basically pay for the guarantee that it's "modifier free". Otherwise there isn't a whole lotta difference.

Some bike oil does cost more, granted. Anyone these days will tell you to run dino oil for the breakin period and maybe a little while afterwards to allow the rings to seat good, then switch to synthetic. NEVER run synthetic for the breakin, it's too slippery and the rings won't seat, causing your bike to suck. Good bike synth oils run anywhere from about $5 to $12 a quart depending on your flavor and anticipated use (i.e. Mobil 1 MX4T is around the $5 mark, and Silkolene 20W50 racing synthetic is $12). You can also run a synthetic blend, which is a mix of dino/synth. I've used the Castrol Actevo stuff with success in my superchicken and I don't believe it was too much.

[Lurch]

I just switched from car oil (Castrol SYN Blend) in my race bike to Silkolene and noticed a difference right away. The car oil I would pull out after a race weekend or two and it would smell burnt. I just drained the Silkolene after one race weekend and it looks like new. I switched because of engine failure and didn't want to risk it again.

Also I now use a Scotts filter which is a pain in the ass to clean but is very nice to see what is coming out or apart in in the engine. I cleaned it in a Cool Whip container which is white and could see all sorts of shit in there. I found some Yamabond,silcone,paper towel,rag fibers, and a few other little bits. Then to finish cleaning it I ran it trough the dishwasher. Glad my wife didn't find out. :lol:

Lurch

[FZRguy]

I’ll just stick with Silkolene petro-based. It’s cheap, it’s oil, it works.

[lifeon2]

I owuld love to see some documentation on the friction modifiers by an outside source (a.k.a. not a motorcycle or oil company) because I have never had any problems with using automotive oil in the 15 yrs that I have been riding

[HDave]

ok, so I resurrected this post while searching for oil and filter opinions.

What do you think about what this guys says about iol and filter types?

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Consumables.html#OilFilters

Sounds like gramps is pretty much right on about the filters. I need to start doing my own maintanence.

How do you get rid of the spent oil? I have not changed oil since the '80s and back then I discarded it in an eco-damaging manner.

[NZ Darren]

You can take your old oil down to an autoparts store, I think they all accept it.

[Gramps]

most auto parts stores have a way of getting rid of it.

also if you use a auto shop regularly they will sometimes take it to burn as a heat source.

you can also usually take it to your local city shop, they take it to keep it out of the drains


hope this helps :D

[HDave]

Good to know there are several options close by.

Where is the best place to pick up oil and filters?

What about the sealing washer on the drain plug - hit the stealership for some of those?

[rybo]

Dave,

Both autozone and checker take used oil free of charge. I know that autozone stocks mobil 1 synthetic bike oil. As far as oil and filters go I'm a big fan of the Amsoil brand and there are several independent distributors in the area. It's a full synthetic bike specific oil for about $5.00 a quart.

They make filters for all brands too, but they are more money than the Wix parts.

If you are in the Aurora area there is a quick change place that stocks it on east colfax called Stripes. The guys there are really nice.

Mobil just changed their car oils, at least in packaging. In the old style the 15W stuff (red cap) didn't have friction modifiers in it, the other weights did.

I had an FZR 400 at one point that I made the mistake of putting car oil with friction modifiers into. It did make the clutch slip. Changing the oil again solved the problem, so no permenant damage was done.

FZR guy, I used the filters you mentioned in my bike with no issues.

Best to all

Scott

[Boy Scout]

Where is the best place to pick up oil and filters?



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[ImolaFem]

I’ll just stick with Silkolene petro-based. It’s cheap, it’s oil, it works.


Where do you get this?

[RAGrote]

copied without permission from a non-copy writed souce.


Go to the Shell Rotella Synthetic website and click on "MSDS", you'll see it's really dino oil. It certainly does NOT exceed Mobil 1 specs.

Mobil 1 is a "Group IV" true synthetic. (PAO based) So is Amsoil & Royal Purple.

Lots of companies taking liberties with the term synthetic these days. Rotella may work fine... but personally, I don't like the false advertising of "fully synthetic".

CASTROL AND MOBIL GO TO COURT TO BATTLE IT OUT:

Recently, Mobil accused Castrol of reformulating its synthetic by substituting other basestocks in place of its synthetic polyaphaolefins (PAO's). Castrol Syntec is a hydrocracked oil. That's right, Castrol has replaced the PAO synthetic base stock with hydroisomerized petroleum base stock. Hydrocracking, as it's called, is the highest level of petroleum refining. Castrol isn't even a synthetic yet Castrol ended up winning the battle when the National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus ruled that Castrol could still market its oil as "synthetic" despite their new formulation. Basically, they expanded the definition of synthetics to include Group III hydroprocessed petroleum oil. This high profile case took place because synthetics are recognized as the market's best hope for growth. Synthetic oil sales have outpaced petroleum oil sales by a wide margin and the gap continues to widen every year. Consumers are getting smarter and demand the best for their vehicles. Read the full story on the Castrol issue in our informative articles section. Additionally, just as soon as Castrol won this battle, several other major oil companies jumped in and came up with hydroprocessed motor oils of their own and labeled these products to be "100% synthetic", when they still are Group III hydroprocessed petroleum oils.

[FZRguy]

I’ll just stick with Silkolene petro-based. It’s cheap, it’s oil, it works.


Where do you get this?

Any m/c dealer, or Performance which has the best price.

[japrules]

I would like to just point one thing out here.. Mobil has lots of money for R&D.. lots more than ANY of the other major oil manufactures. They also have a reputation at stake... Most sports cars now come with Mobil 1 in the crankcase and is the recommened oil type. So if Porsche came out and said, oh we found a problem with Mobil 1 oil they would be screwed.

Ok, one more thing... in the early 90's BMW ran a Million mile test on a BMW325is. Mobil 1 synthetic, running day and night on a chassis dyno. Regular BMW change intervals of I think 8k miles... engine tear down showed all tolerances within BMW specifications..

I for one sleep well at night knowing my bike has Mobil 1 in it.

Joe

[Gramps]

we have mobil 1 at carquest of lafayette

i can sell it as cheap as yuo can buy castrol at retail

you guys need to use your resources :D

[Gallep]

Not sure if this was mentioned. (to much to read :) )But IIRC, If you use Syn. oil, you can't use conventional oils ever again b/c of the saturation properties of the two oils have on gaskets.

[japrules]

Not sure if this was mentioned. (to much to read :) )But IIRC, If you use Syn. oil, you can't use conventional oils ever again b/c of the saturation properties of the two oils have on gaskets.


I do not believe that that is true at all. And I have done it many times. For awhile there were rumors going around that synth caused leaks in gaskets.. some really old gasket material apparently did have issues but anything from early 80's on is fine.

Where are you getting this info from?

[Kim-n-Dean]

Not sure if this was mentioned. (to much to read :) )But IIRC, If you use Syn. oil, you can't use conventional oils ever again b/c of the saturation properties of the two oils have on gaskets.

Not true. If it were, why do we have synthetic blends?

[Gallep]

Not sure if this was mentioned. (to much to read :) )But IIRC, If you use Syn. oil, you can't use conventional oils ever again b/c of the saturation properties of the two oils have on gaskets.


I do not believe that that is true at all. And I have done it many times. For awhile there were rumors going around that synth caused leaks in gaskets.. some really old gasket material apparently did have issues but anything from early 80's on is fine.

Where are you getting this info from?

I was told this in my engines performance class. It may be something else, it was long time ago. but i'm curious now so i'll ask my old instructor and post a correction or the reason for this.

[Gramps]

gallep--

if you're instructor seriously told you this bs give me his name so i can come do a gasket clinic for him. modern gaskets do not saturate with oil of anykind. if oil happens to permeate the sealing surface usually it is due to hard parts warping or flexing. this may cause the gasket to leak but the kind of oil that is in a unit has no bearing on the gasket at all.

trust me on this one.

:D

[~Barn~]

Scott's Stainless Steel oil filters rule!!!

(Trust me, I looked at it tonight.)

[Gallep]

gallep--

if you're instructor seriously told you this bs give me his name so i can come do a gasket clinic for him. modern gaskets do not saturate with oil of anykind. if oil happens to permeate the sealing surface usually it is due to hard parts warping or flexing. this may cause the gasket to leak but the kind of oil that is in a unit has no bearing on the gasket at all.

trust me on this one.

:D

yeah, so i ask that instructor about this, and it was for a specific auto tranny, not an engine. sorry :P

[Gramps]

i told you to trust me :D

you just had to go make a fool of yourself :lol: