Possible clutch slippage

[dm_gsxr]

Bike: 02 Hayabusa. 65,600 miles.

Symptoms: Well "surge" is about the only real description. In all gears, the bike hesitates briefly. It's not regular like a stretched part of the chain but periodic.

The only suggestion I've gotten from someone is water in the oil. I changed the oil and filter the end of October. Nothing out of the ordinary then. I checked the window when it was suggested and it's the color I expect it to be (sort of a dark honey colored and not cloudy). I have been smelling coolant for over a year. No leak on the ground. I figure either a gasket or more likely, I've picked up a stone in the radiator in my riding and I have a small leak. I do have to add coolant a couple of times a year.

Another thing I did was tighten the chain. It was a little slack. It took about a turn on the screw to get it back into spec so it wasn't bad, just time.

Because of a comment from the guy who replace his clutch and posted the thread here (sorry, can't remember who it was) about finding neutral between 5th and 6th (which I've done several times in the past 14 months or so), I'm leaning towards clutch.

Suggestions? I'm going to call the local bike place to see what a stock set of plates are (just for comparison and in case I do need to change them).

Carl

[Bassil Duwaik]

I just replaced my clutch after noticing it too was slipping in nearly every gear which surprised me. I seldom touch 6th gear but when I took the clutches apart there was nothing left between the plates!! I was grinding metal to metal and it happened real fast. In the span of maybe 100mi my clutch was destroyed. Yours is a wet clutch so it may take a little more abuse then my dry clutch. Feels like a new bike with new clutches, tires, chain, plugs and the likes. Now I just gotta replace my damn speedo cable which somehow got caught between the rotor and caliper and pinched it. Anyways, I too am thinking it's your clutch.

Does it do it while in neutral and your reving it? If it only does it while your accelerating then it's gotta be something in the drive line. You've already check the sprockets and chain so I'd start looking at the clutch pack with some scrutiny.

[denverbusa]

You may want to hold off on clutch as your symptom sounds exactly like mine and a new clutch may not help. I changed all my Fiber plates and it still does the exact same thing. The old ones were hardly warn at all! I am just at 30K

Surge is a great word for it. It only happens when accelerating. At first it was only above 7500 rpm now it happens at lower rpms. Some days quite often, today only twice all day. It is quite disconcerting as it has happened while powering through a corner.:shocked: It feels like the clutch is pulled in momentarily and popped back out. I can't do as fast by hand as it actually happens but that is exactly what it feels like when it re-engages. I am thinking maybe hydraulics??? A loss of press I could understand but increased press like you were pulling in the lever???

I am going on the Busa sites tonight (err this AM:sleeping:) to see if there is anything in the history. It sounds like the exact same thing so I can't believe we are the only two Busas' with this trouble.

I'll let you know if I find anything.

[denverbusa]

I have been avoiding doing this as I kind of knew what it was going to be. Unfortunately it looks like a winter project...

Read through these and see of it sounds like your issue as well. Tell me if I just stayed up way too long or if this might be the same issue.


http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=6995.0

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=50425.0

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=50323.0

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=55600.0

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=48866.0


What I am reading from this is a Bent shift fork and Bent / flexing fork shaft (say that 5 times fast). Throw in a little bit of gear back cutting and stir it all up with a new output shaft.

Let it bake in the garage for two months and voilà! FUCK ME

Obviously there will be some more research. What can be done without tear-down just to try before breaking into the tranny once its apart what else would be a good idea to do as long as I'm there etc...
Or just sell it on E-bay and say it never happened to me. :dunno: (very bad for Karma)

I wont be getting to any of this until late winter so if you do try anything please post back up here or PM me your results and I will let you know if I find out anything else.

Must go to sleep now!

[MattTLS]

Hi Carl,

You can fairly easily measure the thickness of the fiber plates and check if the steel plates are warped. Also, a cheap upgrade is to install Barnett springs.

Where in the rpm range is this 'surge' occurring? When was the last time the throttle bodies were synchronized?

Matthew

[dm_gsxr]

Thanks all for the input.

First off, I can't feel it during acceleration. That's not to say it's not there though. Generally when I'm cruising is when it's obvious. Staying at a constant speed. It feels like I'm on a wavy road (if you've ridden 287 north of 470 by the new Kaiser). Except that it's not regular.

I haven't tried it in neutral and am not sure how I would know. The engine sounds ok if a little rough (the idle's at about 900 when it's warm and it should be at 1200).

One thing to note with regards to the transmission is there is a little bit of "lash". Sometimes at a light I get a little coast before it catches (like a quarter turn of the sprocket, not a full turn of the tire).

I'll read the links you provided and see if it describes the problem (hopefully it's just clutch :) ).

I called the local guys (Co Powersports in Boulder) and they're quoting $280 for plates and springs.

Thanks again.

Carl

[dm_gsxr]

Hi Carl,

You can fairly easily measure the thickness of the fiber plates and check if the steel plates are warped. Also, a cheap upgrade is to install Barnett springs.

Where in the rpm range is this 'surge' occurring? When was the last time the throttle bodies were synchronized?

Matthew

Generally it's at a constant speed. I'm usually hovering around 3800rpm's though.

As to throttle bodies; never :) At least as long as I've had it. I got it at 3,900 miles in 2004. Being a 'newb', I thought that only applied to carbed bikes.

Carl

[denverbusa]

[quote=dm_gsxr;229210]I thought that only applied to carbed bikes./quote]

:up:

[denverbusa]

With that added explaination your problem sounds different than mine. Mine feels like I pulled the clutch in really fast then popped it out. The explaination in the attached posts perfectly describes my situation. Yours does sound more like a clutch. The clutch plates (fibers only) are about $150 the steels and springs are more but not always necessary. After searching these sites it sounds like OEM is deffinately the way to go as the aftermarket stuff for clutches gives no advantage and some are no good. I didn't need to replace anything but the plates and my old ones looked perfectly good so I guess I have a good set of spares just in case.

Unfortunately I have a more major problem with mine as the clutch itself is not the issue.

Good luck with yours. $280 sounds right to have it done by others. Verify exactly what they will be replacing. from the dealer the fiber plates alone are $150-160.

[dm_gsxr]

$280 was the price for all plates and springs (friction and steel). Since I didn't know for sure what I should be replacing, I got the full kit estimate. Thanks for the additional info though. I'll be swapping my Gerbing's cable over to one of the other bikes so I can still ride warm :) Nice to have more than one bike in the garage :D

Carl

[MattTLS]

You are mistaken if you think that you don't have to synchronize throttle bodies just because it's fuel injected. My TLS is fuel injected, and I've done the sync a few times on mine and on others. Check your shop manual. This is a mechanical adjustment.


[quote=dm_gsxr;229210]I thought that only applied to carbed bikes./quote]

:up:

[MattTLS]

You know another thing this could potentially be is a worn out cam chain tensioner. Since this is happening at an easy cruising rpm, there is little 'pull' on the chain, so it might be able to waver somewhat.

Matthew

[towneh]

from the Haybusa Service Manual; FI System and Intake Air System;
Throttle Valve Synchronization metering throttle bodies 1 thru 4

--its in there--
bus_henry

btw, my bus has had the waivering clutch problem as well

[denverbusa]

I stand corrected.

[dm_gsxr]

Ok a little more info if it helps.

I bought the fiber clutch plates (about $110) and the tool noted in the manual but I haven't replaced the plates yet.

I did notice that it seemed to occur only after the bike warmed up. This morning I got geared up and headed out and no surging at all. Once I got on 287 and down to Lafayette (I ride from Broomfield to Longmont now), I noticed it was surging again.

I watched the tach and there's no wiggle at all as it would if the engine was getting more or less power. While moving, the engine sounds find.

I also noticed that it does the same thing when engine braking while approaching a light or stop sign.

One thing I'm curious about. When we replaced the front wheel bearings, they were pretty dry (and 2 or 3 of the actual bearings were gone). There are three bearings in the rear wheel (so I was told). Is it possible that's what's causing the problem? I was going to do them too since the front ones were so bad but just hadn't gotten around to it yet.

Any other ideas? I'd be willing to let someone with more experience take it for a spin to try and identify the problem (I mean like Scott, not one of you hooligans :D ).

Thanks.

Carl

[rybo]

Carl,

I gotta say, based on seeing the front bearings replacing the rear wheel bearings is a good idea, but I don't think that's your problem.

I do think there are a couple other ideas here that seem to merit investigation. The first thing I thought when I read "surging" was to get the TB's synched. Get in touch with Aaron Clark at Epic Motorsports and have him look into your FI system and make sure everything is healthy there.

That is where I would start.

Let us know what you find out.

s

[dm_gsxr]

Carl,

I gotta say, based on seeing the front bearings replacing the rear wheel bearings is a good idea, but I don't think that's your problem.

I do think there are a couple other ideas here that seem to merit investigation. The first thing I thought when I read "surging" was to get the TB's synched. Get in touch with Aaron Clark at Epic Motorsports and have him look into your FI system and make sure everything is healthy there.

That is where I would start.

Let us know what you find out.

s

Ok sounds good. Thanks.

Carl

[dm_gsxr]

Ok, appointment for Tuesday to have the throttle bodies synced. Since it's going to be there, he's going to pick up a set of bearings from the local bearing shop and replace them at the same time, killing two birds with one stone.

Carl

And since I'm just down the road now, they're going to just shoot over and pick the bike up Tuesday morning. Is that service or what? :)

[tripledigits]

Carl,

If your clutch was slipping it would show up first under hard acceleration. What you're describing could be many things, but I would run some Seafoam in your gas for a tankful, and clean your throttle bodies with some intake cleaner spray. Remove your air cleaner, have the engine running and spray intake cleaner right down the holes. You may have to add throttle to keep the engine from choking. Are your spark plugs in good shape? Is your fuel filter clean?

When I think of surging while cruising, I'm thinking fuel delivery as the first thing to look at. If your bike needs a tune up, you might as well do a complete tune then see how she runs. You may also have gotten some bad gas, although that seems to be happening less and less.

Jeff

[dm_gsxr]

I ran a can of seafoam through the tank over the course of three tanks earlier this year.

I did a quick 'net search and found this:

"Common symptoms of unbalanced cylinders is rough idle and low load surging, as well as slight hesitation while accelerating."

It does seem to match the symptoms. The idle is fairly rough and the problem seems to occur at low load and there has been slight hesitation on acceleration.

Carl

[tripledigits]

Sounds like you're on the right track. I've never had firsthand experience with unbalanced synch.

[dm_gsxr]

Me either. 'til now :)

I'll know for sure Tuesday afternoon.

Carl

[dm_gsxr]

In preparation, on Saturday afternoon I replaced the spark plugs (they looked basically ok) and cleaned the air filter. The air filter (K&N) was a mess. I knocked out a good amount of crud and when I cleaned it, a lot of general crud was washed out.

I left the bike open and on the rear stand (I cleaned the chain as well) over night. Sunday I sprayed the oil on the air filter and put it back in the bike. I screwed it all down, put the gas tank back down and then started to take it off of the rear stand. It seems like every time I've had the bike fall over, it's had the hump on the back. Nothing new this time. It slipped off the stand and over to the right side again.

I snag Rita and we get it back up where it belongs. I started it up and the FI light is on. It sounds pretty rough. Crap, what did I do?

So I rode the Transalp to work Monday and the 'busa to work today since they were going to sync the throttle bodies for me.

I got a call around 2. "Hey, we found the FI problem. When you put the air box back on the bike, you forgot to connect the sensors."

*doh*!

So now I'm just waiting on them to come pick me up so I can see how the bike works now :)

Oh, and apparently the rear sprocket is trashed already. I put it on last year but at CoPowerSports' recommendation I put an aluminum on which just doesn't last long, especially since I'm more of a touring rider. So I'll replace the sprockets and maybe the chain (but probably not right now :) ).

Fun stuff all around.

Carl

[dm_gsxr]

Ok, Mike came by and picked me up (thanks Mike and Kevin).

Kevin had a couple of dyno charts for me to look at. They were suggesting that I get a Power Commander in order to correct the factory default lean setting on the bike and pick up 15 or so horsepower.

At this time I'm not interested in a performance boost so having it be a little slower is fine with my style (more touring than anything).

At the moment anyway :)

So I paid up, got my receipts and headed out.

The bike certainly felt smoother. I got to the light and saw a big long line of cars heading towards me fast. I made the right into the merge lane (it's a long one) and dug in. No hesitation and in less than 2 seconds I was even with the pickup and a few seconds later he and traffic was several car lengths behind me :D

The bike feels lots better.

While there is better response from the bike, I won't know for sure until tomorrow's commute where I'll be a little more sane :D

I'm going to make a slight suspension adjustment tonight. It feels a little bouncier that I like.

Carl

[dm_gsxr]

Still haven't made the suspension adjustment. Busy, busy, busy :)

I'm still a bit sensitive to the bike. In the past couple of days I've felt a ghost surge :) When it happens, I make sure the bike is steady on the throttle and then feel for a bit and nothing happens. I suspect it's just related to the suspension being a tad soft.

If I'm able, I'll catch it this weekend. In general though, I'd call the problem fixed.

Thanks again all for the advice and particularly for the suggestion it was the Throttle Bodies. If nothing else, it's 99% better :D

Carl

[James]

A good test is to watch the RPMs when you shift. After releasing the clutch lever, and you begin to accelerate into the next gear, watch the rpms. If they rev really high, and then "catch," and then fall back down, your clutch is really slipping.

[dm_gsxr]

A good test is to watch the RPMs when you shift. After releasing the clutch lever, and you begin to accelerate into the next gear, watch the rpms. If they rev really high, and then "catch," and then fall back down, your clutch is really slipping.

Yea, that's why I was puzzled. I wasn't getting any modulation while accelerating or decelerating. Just while cruising at a constant speed. I wasn't seeing much, if any RPM change, just the little changes.

Carl