Inverted forks that big a deal?

[RyNo24]

I know from what I hear at GPM and what I hear from riders, is that they all swear up and down about how great inverted forks are. I know they are better because it gets the weight closer to the triple tree making for "easier" steering. Also, I think inverted forks look better and more sporty than standard ones,
So,
Are inverted forks really that much better than standard, and is it something worth paying more for?

[Devaclis]

After switching the standard forks on my Hawk to inverted 954 forks I can tell you this:

The forks did not make any difference to the steering, cornering, or overall feel of the bike. Tuning them did. I am now on a CBR with the regular forks (non-inverted) and I am messing with the tuning a bit. I don't think the extra money is worth it for street riding.

[konichd]

Here is some explanation from Yamaha, yes they are worth the money for street riding. Dana's just fuckin' butt hurt because Honda got it wrong in 03 :)

Inverted forks are positioned on the motorcycle opposite or upside down when compared to conventional forks. The leverage forces that cause fork flex are greatest at the triple clamp area and weakest at the front axle. On inverted forks, the large outer tube of the fork is clamped in the bike’s triple clamps and the sliding inner tube holds the axle and front wheel. By locating the large diameter tubes in the triple clamp, the inverted or upside down fork have their largest and strongest parts combating the highest stress. This arrangement gives the forks high rigidity, which improves their response by reducing the side loading of the internal bushings (sliding surfaces). This kind of response is particularly important in high performance applications. Most inverted forks use cartridge-type damping systems.
Also, since the damping mechanisms are now held by the triple clamps, unsprung weight is minimized. Reducing unsprung weight is one of the biggest contributors to quality suspension performance, particularly for featherweight motorcycles.

[Dr. Joe Siphek]

where's that picture of the guy on the ZX6R doing the stoppie and his inverted forks just break off :lol:

doubt it's going to matter to the avg. street rider, may make a difference for stunta though.

[RyNo24]

The rigidity makes complete sense, they should talk about that at the dealerships more than the easier steering, because you don't hardly steer a bike! lol

[dirkterrell]

I
Are inverted forks really that much better than standard, and is it something worth paying more for?

For street riding, I doubt you'd really notice it. Money spent learning how to ride better would give very noticeable returns for the average rider.

Unless, of course, it's a Kawasaki. You need all the help you can get on one of those. http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/goofy.gif

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

where's that picture of the guy on the ZX6R doing the stoppie and his inverted forks just break off :lol:


http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/bikes/kawawreck.jpg

Dirk

[Devaclis]

Here is some explanation from Yamaha, yes they are worth the money for street riding. Dana's just fuckin' butt hurt because Honda got it wrong in 03 :)

Inverted forks are positioned on the motorcycle opposite or upside down when compared to conventional forks. The leverage forces that cause fork flex are greatest at the triple clamp area and weakest at the front axle. On inverted forks, the large outer tube of the fork is clamped in the bike’s triple clamps and the sliding inner tube holds the axle and front wheel. By locating the large diameter tubes in the triple clamp, the inverted or upside down fork have their largest and strongest parts combating the highest stress. This arrangement gives the forks high rigidity, which improves their response by reducing the side loading of the internal bushings (sliding surfaces). This kind of response is particularly important in high performance applications. Most inverted forks use cartridge-type damping systems.
Also, since the damping mechanisms are now held by the triple clamps, unsprung weight is minimized. Reducing unsprung weight is one of the biggest contributors to quality suspension performance, particularly for featherweight motorcycles.

I am what you would consider an average street rider, with thousands more street miles than most. I will tell you from experience: No, it does not make a difference, for the money. My standard forks, with racetech cartridge emulators, the correct weight and amount of oil, and the correct springs for my riding, performed as well, if not better than the inverted forks I had. This is from EXPERIENCE. Not from a theory on why is SHOULD be different.

Show me 2 people who push their suspension hard enough on the street and have them tell their experiences here, if they have any, between standard and inverted.

Post up your experiences, not your articles :)

[konichd]

^^^I've had experiences with both, my two shitty Honda's had standard forks (along with my R6) and I felt a difference in the overall rigidity and handling of the front end. Proper suspension setup is key on any suspension. If it wasn't such an improvement then why does every high performance steet bike come standard with inverted forks now?

[Devaclis]

They don't all come with inverted forks right now :)


I feel your experience, and your bias towards Honda and Yami hahahahaha

My 03 CBR has standard forks.

Do we have anyone else here with some good experience on both types of setup?

You also need to take into consideration that there is usually an upgraded rear suspension on bikes with inverted forks. The forks are not the only thing that affect turn in and handling through a corner.

[dirkterrell]

If it wasn't such an improvement then why does every high performance steet bike come standard with inverted forks now?

Because they are designed to be track bikes? Because the average buyer of such bikes tends to focus on inconsequential technical details rather than their riding ability? Because many of them are really buying a two-wheeled penis extender?

I've seen Freddie Spencer two-up on a VFR (with standard forks, GASP!) leave guys on race-prepped CBRs in the dust. For the average rider, you'll get a lot more out of paying someone like Freddie to teach you how to ride than you ever will buying the trickest shock/pipes/whatever.

Dirk

[RyNo24]

Both of the bikes I am looking to upgrade have inverted forks, so it doesn't matter price wise. I was also wondering incase I end up keeping my FZ6, because I would figure out a way to retro fit some R6 shocks onto it. I could get the standard front forks from a R6s or I could go inverted, but it seems inverted would be the way to go if I would to through the trouble of changing forks.

[lovinCO]

Because many of them are really buying a two-wheeled penis extender?


:spit:








That wasn't nice. :)

[konichd]

I'm not saying "standard forks" aren't good or can't do the job. Motorcycle companies have spent major R&D time and $$$ and inverted forks obviously have an advantage.

Whether that advantage can be utalized by a street rider is a matter or opinion.

But if Dirk and Dana have more wisdom than the major motorcycle companies.... :) then listen to thier .02

[dirkterrell]

Whether that advantage can be utalized by a street rider is a matter or opinion.


That is the key point under discussion, though. I don't doubt that inverted forks have advantages when you are trying to squeeze the most performance out of a bike. But should an average street rider make a buying decision on whether or not the thing has inverted forks? No.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

:spit:
That wasn't nice. :)

I had a feeling that you (and Jenn) would get a laugh out of that. :)

Dirk

[Devaclis]

Right, never claimed to have more wisdom. I DO have a lot of real world experience. My opinion is no, I would not buy one bike over another because of inverted forks, or because it weighed 26lbs less, or had a carbon fiber exhaust. If I was dragging knee in the canyons, for money, maybe. If I were going to race the bike, sure. But not to ride street.

But then again, I am discussing this with the king of bolt-ons :)

[konichd]

That is the key point under discussion, though. I don't doubt that inverted forks have advantages when you are trying to squeeze the most performance out of a bike. But should an average street rider make a buying decision on whether or not the thing has inverted forks? No.

Dirk

Why shouldn' it be a buying decision? :dunno: Afterall these bikes are performance machines. Why buy a corvette without an independent suspension? This makes no sense to me, a lot of decisions should come into mind when purchasing a bike, this being one of them.

[Devaclis]

not everyone has DK money :)

[konichd]

True, but suspension is one area where I wouldn't skimp on $$$. Everyone says the most important thing to do when you get a bike is get the suspension setup, so why skimp on the components.

Oh, and my "bolt ons" are the "shiznit" :)

[Devaclis]

The components on my '03 were not top O' the line when they came out but still perform, on the street, better than I can use them. Anything more is a waste, for my riding style.


I need some carbon fiber shelf paper so I can clean my plate faster lol.

[konichd]

Dana, your stock suspension did do a fabulous job in handling a backpack full of toys. However, a new rear shock and cartridge kit and I think you would sing a different tune :)

Remember the good old days when we could get along? ;)

[lovinCO]

Both of the bikes I am looking to upgrade have inverted forks, so it doesn't matter price wise. I was also wondering incase I end up keeping my FZ6, because I would figure out a way to retro fit some R6 shocks onto it. I could get the standard front forks from a R6s or I could go inverted, but it seems inverted would be the way to go if I would to through the trouble of changing forks.


I think the point of this discussion is--buy one of the other bikes you're considering, rather than put a new front end on your FZ6. An FZ6 is a wonderful sport-standard, enjoy it for what it offers. If you want to get more aggressive buy a more aggressive model, with inverted forks attached.

My concern is be that making big component changes to that FZ6 will not result in the bike you really want, it could end up cobbled, and it will probably decrease the resale value of the bike.

[Devaclis]

We are still getting along. We can't have makeup sex without a little heated discussion first.

On the forks, all I really need is a proper setup (tune). I don't think I am at the point where I need a GP style setup yet.

[RyNo24]

I live like a block away from that place!!!!


Dana, your stock suspension did do a fabulous job in handling a backpack full of toys. However, a new rear shock and cartridge kit and I think you would sing a different tune :)

Remember the good old days when we could get along? ;)

[Devaclis]

I will be there after work. Stop by, I will be on the yellow CBR :) Ask for Dana.

[konichd]

^^What time are youi going to be there Dana? I needz a hugz :(

[dirkterrell]

The original question was:



Are inverted forks really that much better than standard, and is it something worth paying more for?

So, in answering the original question, I have said that I don't think it is worth paying more for with regard to the average rider. Now, maybe RyNo24 is a set of inverted forks away from being on a MotoGP podium but the fact that he asks the question in the first place makes me think otherwise. http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/goofy.gif


Why shouldn' it be a buying decision? :dunno: Afterall these bikes are performance machines. Why buy a corvette without an independent suspension? This makes no sense to me, a lot of decisions should come into mind when purchasing a bike, this being one of them.

Sure, but the question was asked as to whether it was worth the extra money to have inverted forks. As I said, you'd be much better off spending the money having someone like Mark Schellinger teach you how to ride than you would be farkling up the bike with stuff that you probably don't have the skills to make use of anyway (especially on the street).

Dirk

[Devaclis]

I am leaving here at 4:00. I will be there by 4:15 (I am on a Honda so I can get there sooner if I need to. Hell, I can actually get there before I leave)

[RyNo24]

I would go but I am stuck at school until 9:30pm:(


I am leaving here at 4:00. I will be there by 4:15 (I am on a Honda so I can get there sooner if I need to. Hell, I can actually get there before I leave)

[RyNo24]

Yeah, I need A LOT more before I am on a podium lol.


The original question was:



So, in answering the original question, I have said that I don't think it is worth paying more for with regard to the average rider. Now, maybe RyNo24 is a set of inverted forks away from being on a MotoGP podium but the fact that he asks the question in the first place makes me think otherwise. http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/goofy.gif


Dirk

[irdave]

Inverted forks are stiffer. It's a fact based on most of the flexing happening at the lower triple clamp-and with the larger diameter tube of the upside down forks at that point, they're stiffer.

Question should be,"Is the whole bike designed around that stiffer fork?" If it is, than putting a "regular" fork on it might make it handle a little funny.

Does it effect unsprung mass? Maybe. But if it did anything, it would increase it, as now you've got the shiny steel bits down by the wheel and the light aluminum parts up by the triples... Internals are so close to the same that they won't make a difference ( I mean, literally, the cartridges look almost identical between a regular fork and an upside down one.)

Having the right springs and the range of adjustment required to get the thing to work properly is so much more important than fork configuration that I wouldn't worry about it.

Unless, of course, you just want it to look cool. Then, for sure, they need to be upside down. :)

[Devaclis]

Pssssh. Don't listen to Dave. He has no clue what he is talking about. /sarcasm


Hey Dave, can I get you to bounce on my bike? I am bottoming out on hard bumps in th front and getting bumped off the seat on bumps as well

[rybo]

Inverted forks are stiffer. It's a fact based on most of the flexing happening at the lower triple clamp-and with the larger diameter tube of the upside down forks at that point, they're stiffer.

Question should be,"Is the whole bike designed around that stiffer fork?" If it is, than putting a "regular" fork on it might make it handle a little funny.

Does it effect unsprung mass? Maybe. But if it did anything, it would increase it, as now you've got the shiny steel bits down by the wheel and the light aluminum parts up by the triples... Internals are so close to the same that they won't make a difference ( I mean, literally, the cartridges look almost identical between a regular fork and an upside down one.)

Having the right springs and the range of adjustment required to get the thing to work properly is so much more important than fork configuration that I wouldn't worry about it.

Unless, of course, you just want it to look cool. Then, for sure, they need to be upside down. :)

Yup...this here is the reason I pay Dave to set up my bikes. Real world experience, a healthy dose of common sense and an excellent understanding that, just like life, our bikes are about relationship. Having parts that are designed to work well together really is the key. When that happens and the bike is dialed in, then I'm more comfortable as a rider and can go faster.

[CurtisRR]

Yup...this here is the reason I pay Dave to set up my bikes. Real world experience, a healthy dose of common sense and an excellent understanding that, just like life, our bikes are about relationship. Having parts that are designed to work well together really is the key. When that happens and the bike is dialed in, then I'm more comfortable as a rider and can go faster.

I was very happy with just the very minor tweaks Dave did on my bike at Miller (Racing2SaveLives) last year. I hope he comes out again cause it needs tweaking again.

[Sortarican]

I live like a block away from that place!!!!
Dana (Devaclis) lives like...there.


... rather than put a new front end on your FZ6. An FZ6 is a wonderful sport-standard, enjoy it for what it offers. If you want to get more aggressive buy a more aggressive model, with inverted forks attached.....

Great point.
You can drop $10K into $3K bike and all you'll have is a really expensive $3,000 bike.
Look at DK, he's dumped thousands into his Kawi and all he has to show for it is an overpriced turd.:turtle:


Pssssh. Don't listen to Dave. He has no clue what he is talking about. /sarcasm
Agreed....ever since he dialed in my suspension I no longer have an excuse for being slow....damn your eyes Dave.


Hey Dave, can I get you to bounce on my bike? I am bottoming out on hard bumps in th front and getting bumped off the seat on bumps as well

Just an idea.... but maybe you should try cutting back on the Kilbasa there porky.

[Devaclis]

Hey! I have no comeback to that :(

[Gramps]

Real world.....


VFR ........ traditional forks


R6 ........ traditional forks


R1 ........ inverted forks


ZX6R ....... inverted forks



To the best of my comparison abilities inverted forks make a huge difference on feedback. A lot has changed, from the bikes to the components, to the tires, and the riding style. Overall I think there have been some very valid points made in this thread. There are way more things to think about besides the look of your suspension components or yourself for that matter. To address the original question is hard because it is so open, but I would say yes there is a difference. You as a rider may not be able to exploit the difference, but there is a difference.

:)

[irdave]

Sorry for the delay. For sure, I can help set up a bike- that's what I do. (Aside from finishing up the degree, and fixing the broken electrical bits at the local coffee shop.)

email is dave -at- fixmybike -dot- com. Or call on (970) 222-9597.

[konichd]

^^^Dave just finished up my Ohlins kit for my "inverted" ZX10 forks......butter! ;)

[Devaclis]

^^ Have you actually been on the bike to know? It never got above 60 this weekend so I doubt you were on 2 wheels ;)

[konichd]

:lol: too busy building "Ebony GP" to care ;)

[irdave]

You guys need to come out and ride motard... Yesterday, in the high 40's with sun, Aaron turned a high 57 second lap at IMI.

And yeah. Those forks should start living up to their potential. The Öhlins kit is nice.

[konichd]

^^I would but motards do not have inverted forks :no:

[irdave]

Really?

[Bueller]

^^I would but motards do not have inverted forks :no:
Is that what they told you on the zx10aarr fo rum?

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/rmsupermoto999/Supermoto/GJrace3006.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/rmsupermoto999/Supermoto/conv008Small.jpg

[irdave]

We should be fair... Maybe he's never seen a motard before?

[rybo]

We should be fair... Maybe he's never seen a motard before?

ooooh BURN!

[konichd]

Damn they got me! :lol: I'll take one as long as I can put 10R forks on it :)

[Bueller]

Damn they got me! :lol: I'll take one as long as I can put 10R forks on it :)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C2EPNXJKL._AA216_.gif

[Warren]

Has anyone ever tested the side to side stiffness of the inverted verses standard forks. I know that when I worked on mountain bikes (even the big ass marzochhi monster), the inverted forks were stiffer front to back, but way flexier side to side. If you hold the wheel still and turn the bars you could notice a huge difference. I was just wondering if anyone has done any hands on testing of this type of stuff themselves.

Oh yeah when I talked to the rep, he said that this flex helped the front tire follow the lines in the runs and then when I talked to a friend who raced motorcross he said that he was told the same thing. It sounds like bullshit to me, but I am not an expert by far.