Expert Carving

[sensasia]

To those who are more advanced riders: I am wondering at what RPMs and what gear you typically enter and exit your turns. How fast are you traveling, on average, on a typical canyon run to, say, Estes Park? When engaging a turn, do you brake in gear or down-shift? If the latter, at what RPMs do you recommend doing so without experiencing a tail slip? I have an 02 GSXR600 with a Dunlop qualifier up front and a Metzeler Sportec M1 on rear --- both have very good tread --- and my bike is stock apart from a slip on exhaust. (FYI, the K2 GSXRs come stock with a piggy-back steering damper). I'm using stock preload and suspension settings.

Also, what style of lean do you recommend? Some say adjust and pull your weight into the turn to optimize your entry and exit speed (almost as if to prepare for a knee down), while others suggest "kissing the mirror?" Any information as to how to furiously attack corners would be greatly appreciated.

[asp_125]

1. How long have you been riding?
2. Take a track course

There are so many different kinds on corners on the way to Estes, depending on route, surface grip, etc etc. It's hard to answer. About the only good advice is slow in=fast out.

[rybo]

First and foremost, welcome. You will find a wide range of experiences and styles here that will provide helpful information.

Over the past 6-7 years I've moved the style of riding your looking to do strictly to the track. It's a great place to practice the skills you're looking for in a closed environment that gives a margin of safety that you won't find on the street. Guard rails are close, cliffs drop off and sometimes there is sand and gravel that you can't anticipate on the road. I'm all for a spirited road ride, don't get me wrong, but these days I'm keeping my butt centered on the seat when I'm in the canyons. Hanging off, kissing the mirror and putting the knee down is better reserved for other places.

I have limited (make that none) experience with your bike, but the goal is to enter the corner at the RPM that provides peak torque and shift just past peak HP. I don't know what revs that is on your bike. On the street I'm essentially doing one thing at a time (Speeding up, turning, or slowing down) While you can go faster up a canyon by trail braking and clinging to the limit, there isn't a trophy or a payout for doing so.

Finally, I'm not a fan of mixing tire brands/models. Front and rear tires on sportbikes are really designed to work together, and while there are some combinations that work just fine, I'm guessing your bike would work much better with matched tires.

Keep your eyes peeled, I'm planning 4 great trackdays where quality instruction will be available this summer at Pueblo Motorsports Park.

Keep it rubber side down!

[McVaaahhh]

:imwithstupid:

Scott said it much better than I will, but if you're pushing it hard enough in the canyon to experience changes in traction on your rear tire, you really should head to the track. It's so much more fun then when you run into some unforseen obstacle in a canyon.

I don't know how long you've been riding, but I personally have experienced enough changes in road condition mid-corner that scared the shit out of me and would have taken me out had I been dragging knee at that point.

You HAVE TO leave some reserve in the canyons or you're going to end up in a bad way.


Pueblo on Monday anyone? :D

[VFR]

To those who are more advanced riders: I am wondering at what RPMs and what gear you typically enter and exit your turns. How fast are you traveling, on average, on a typical canyon run to, say, Estes Park? When engaging a turn, do you brake in gear or down-shift? If the latter, at what RPMs do you recommend doing so without experiencing a tail slip? I have an 02 GSXR600 with a Dunlop qualifier up front and a Metzeler Sportec M1 on rear --- both have very good tread --- and my bike is stock apart from a slip on exhaust. (FYI, the K2 GSXRs come stock with a piggy-back steering damper). I'm using stock preload and suspension settings.

Also, what style of lean do you recommend? Some say adjust and pull your weight into the turn to optimize your entry and exit speed (almost as if to prepare for a knee down), while others suggest "kissing the mirror?" Any information as to how to furiously attack corners would be greatly appreciated.

The only way to FURIOUSLY ATTACK CORNERS is at the track. In the canyons someone on a cell phone may be attacking the same corner. Except they are in a minivan and in YOUR lane.

[sensasia]

Well said and thanks for everyone's help! It makes a lot of sense to take my longing for aggressive riding to the track; however, I was under the impression that track riding requires a race suit, race fee, and light covering. Is there more involved? How would I go about racing on a track --- some starter pointers would be great!

[pauliep]

McV- See ya at Puebloe on Monday!

sensasia- IMI is a great place (IMO) to have your first track day when you don't have all the items you expected (suit and money). All day on the track costs $35 and you will get by with a jacket, helmet, gloves, but all us here want to you see you there with some pants (leather) and 8inch high riding boots. Racing would be further down the road with some track exp.

[Ghost]

No offense, but it doesn't matter what RPM/Speed you're doing on public roads.

Keep your head out of the gauges and on the road. Go by feel. You're not trimming seconds a lap, so what matters is NOT HITTING whatever's in the road ahead of you.

Yes, track days/schools require gear. It's a basic suit all riders should have if they're serious about riding. If you're more into flip-flops and wife beaters then I wouldn't worry about your corner speed.

[Matty]

Finally, I'm not a fan of mixing tire brands/models. Front and rear tires on sportbikes are really designed to work together, and while there are some combinations that work just fine, I'm guessing your bike would work much better with matched tires.

:imwithstupid:

The only advice i would give is stay in lower gears and higher RPM... You have more power and more engine braking in the upper RPMS.

[dragos13]

No offense, but it doesn't matter what RPM/Speed you're doing on public roads.

Keep your head out of the gauges and on the road. Go by feel. You're not trimming seconds a lap, so what matters is NOT HITTING whatever's in the road ahead of you.

Yes, track days/schools require gear. It's a basic suit all riders should have if they're serious about riding. If you're more into flip-flops and wife beaters then I wouldn't worry about your corner speed.

+1, glad someone said it

Not only are your questions nearly impossible to answer, they shouldn't even be asked in reference to street riding. every corner is going to require different speed for entry, and every bike is different in gearing. when you are downshifting, you need to start blipping the throttle to avoid the rear tire from breaking loose. you can downshift and have your RPMs at nearly red-line without slipping the rear as long as you blip the throttle correctly. as for body position, the bike likes lower central mass. "kiss the mirror" technique is a good idea to go by. it drops your head, and thus drops your central mass (chest area). also, try and extend your outside arm. this will help you get off while keeping the bike more upright. trailbraking into the corners should only be practiced on the track, so I would say make sure entry speed is low enough to avoid disaster prior to turning in. stay loose on the arms (the bike HATES rough rider input) and keep your crotch about 2 inches from the tank. I think a major problem with street riders is having their nuts up on the tank. the bike doesn't like this at all unless under hard braking. just remember, when on the street prepare for anything. this could mean gravel, ice, deer, some retard in a cage, etc. when you start pushing it on the streets, you start pushing your luck.

[HOTCARCASS]

You should ride the same roads enough to get to know them very well. You should always take a victory lap up and down the canyon road at least once befor pushing limits. Look for sand, Rocks, places where people are crossing the road, where cars are parked generally suggest someone will eventually cross there. wait awhile at the bottom of the road, if no cars have passed then you won't be running into the back of anybody. Gearing and speed should be more passive to avoid a heavy overly responsive feel that is created by torque. If your in 1st gear doing 80 you have to be damn smooth applying throtle at the apex, if you are not your bike might just jump away from you. If your in second doing 80 in the same turn this will result in a less twitchy feel. Taking an outside line to enter will help judge the apex and where to lean. You should never have your ass planted on the seat no matter what. You should be crawling around on that thing like a spider. If your butt is planted and your weight is not on your pegs then no matter how slow your going you will not have time to react to anything and all you can do is brake. Never Never Never ride with your butt planted thats the wort advise I've ever heard. Put some weight on your pegs and practice adjusting your bike as the corner progesses. Stay more passive in your gear selection as you learn a turn you will become faster through it.

[dragos13]

You should ride the same roads enough to get to know them very well. You should always take a victory lap up and down the canyon road at least once befor pushing limits. Look for sand, Rocks, places where people are crossing the road, where cars are parked generally suggest someone will eventually cross there. wait awhile at the bottom of the road, if no cars have passed then you won't be running into the back of anybody. Gearing and speed should be more passive to avoid a heavy overly responsive feel that is created by torque. If your in 1st gear doing 80 you have to be damn smooth applying throtle at the apex, if you are not your bike might just jump away from you. If your in second doing 80 in the same turn this will result in a less twitchy feel. Taking an outside line to enter will help judge the apex and where to lean. You should never have your ass planted on the seat no matter what. You should be crawling around on that thing like a spider. If your butt is planted and your weight is not on your pegs then no matter how slow your going you will not have time to react to anything and all you can do is brake. Never Never Never ride with your butt planted thats the wort advise I've ever heard. Put some weight on your pegs and practice adjusting your bike as the corner progesses. Stay more passive in your gear selection as you learn a turn you will become faster through it.

I'm not going to argue over all your points, however saying that you should never have your ass on the seat is ridiculous. Now, I dont ride on the street and most of these techniques should only be done on the track, yet there are reasons to have your ass on the seat. After you get thru the apex, and want to get on the gas, having your ass on the seat transfers weight to the rear wheel, settling the chassis and helping the tire hook up. Just my .02 anyways.

[tarded400]

Also for a novice rider it avoids upsetting the chassis. At IMI I always had a hard time on my 929 getting it to go through the corkscrew well because I upset the chassis jumping from one side to the other all the while changing the bike's direction as well.

[HOTCARCASS]

Thats true letting your weight slide back will help the nervouse chassis. But at high speeds through the canyons there are more turns comming and fast. I would say planting your ass on the seat is going to upset the chasis more because of the effort involved in getting your weight back of it. Even when your ass is sliding back it shouldn't be plannted. All I'm saying is be nimble and always be ready to move. For all those that preach TRACK, TRACK, TRACK you have to realize that not everybody wants to ride at a track. You guys make it sound like track riding is safe, HA a safe motorcycle. Thats like safe rock climbing or safe Skydiving. The track claims many and there is always carnage. I prefer to ride not load, unload, wrench, hang in pueblo, ride a couple of hours and then load, unload, wrench, load unload Hang in pueblo. I ride quik in the turns and slow in the streights. I live for the turns so I don't want to wad at high speed in the streights. correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't racing and track riding envolve close passing, topping out in the streights (150mph -180), late braking in traffic in general it's competition so aren't you pushing it and trying to beat the guy next to you. HMM this sound like you could still get takin out take someone out and get ran over. Wow thats really different then the street. It is really anoying when racers act like you can't pick good lines and good situations to push limits on the street. Just because There is no plastic trophy at the end of the days means shit. Besides my wife is sick of me displaying cheapass trophys in the house.

[tarded400]

Track days are NOT race days.... You ride at the pace YOU want to. When I ride at IMI, I literally put on my leathers, ride down there, pay the entrance fee, and ride at the track. When I'm done, I just ride home. No waiting around or trailoring necessary, although its not a bad idea if you want to. I can't support riding hard in the canyons. Oh- and the top speed at IMI is around 100 mph from a liter bike. Track riding isn't for everyone, but if you want to push your bike it is THE place to do it. It was designed for it. No tickets, no fences, no trees or other posts... so if you do wreck, and you may, you slide along the grass thinking "Wow, guess I loaded the front end too much." Track riding is much safer than canyons.

[fullgrownbear]

Thats true letting your weight slide back will help the nervouse chassis. But at high speeds through the canyons there are more turns comming and fast. I would say planting your ass on the seat is going to upset the chasis more because of the effort involved in getting your weight back of it. Even when your ass is sliding back it shouldn't be plannted. All I'm saying is be nimble and always be ready to move. For all those that preach TRACK, TRACK, TRACK you have to realize that not everybody wants to ride at a track. You guys make it sound like track riding is safe, HA a safe motorcycle. Thats like safe rock climbing or safe Skydiving. The track claims many and there is always carnage. I prefer to ride not load, unload, wrench, hang in pueblo, ride a couple of hours and then load, unload, wrench, load unload Hang in pueblo. I ride quik in the turns and slow in the streights. I live for the turns so I don't want to wad at high speed in the streights. correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't racing and track riding envolve close passing, topping out in the streights (150mph -180), late braking in traffic in general it's competition so aren't you pushing it and trying to beat the guy next to you. HMM this sound like you could still get takin out take someone out and get ran over. Wow thats really different then the street. It is really anoying when racers act like you can't pick good lines and good situations to push limits on the street. Just because There is no plastic trophy at the end of the days means shit. Besides my wife is sick of me displaying cheapass trophys in the house.

^+1

Oh, and my wife doesn't like plastic trophy's either.

And Tarded, I do agree that IMI is a great place. The speeds just aren't high enough to have any catostrophic damage. Then again, anything can happen, and if you're not wearing gear.. well..

[dragos13]

Thats true letting your weight slide back will help the nervouse chassis. But at high speeds through the canyons there are more turns comming and fast. I would say planting your ass on the seat is going to upset the chasis more because of the effort involved in getting your weight back of it. Even when your ass is sliding back it shouldn't be plannted. All I'm saying is be nimble and always be ready to move. For all those that preach TRACK, TRACK, TRACK you have to realize that not everybody wants to ride at a track. You guys make it sound like track riding is safe, HA a safe motorcycle. Thats like safe rock climbing or safe Skydiving. The track claims many and there is always carnage. I prefer to ride not load, unload, wrench, hang in pueblo, ride a couple of hours and then load, unload, wrench, load unload Hang in pueblo. I ride quik in the turns and slow in the streights. I live for the turns so I don't want to wad at high speed in the streights. correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't racing and track riding envolve close passing, topping out in the streights (150mph -180), late braking in traffic in general it's competition so aren't you pushing it and trying to beat the guy next to you. HMM this sound like you could still get takin out take someone out and get ran over. Wow thats really different then the street. It is really anoying when racers act like you can't pick good lines and good situations to push limits on the street. Just because There is no plastic trophy at the end of the days means shit. Besides my wife is sick of me displaying cheapass trophys in the house.

Sounds like you got everything figured out :roll:

If you really think that riding hard in the canyons is as safe as the track, then I have nothing else to say :down:

Re-read my posts and you'll see I never said anything about "planting your ass to the seat". My first reference was to clearly say keep your balls off the tank. Too many street riders get too far up on their seat, causing their arms to be stiff, body position to be too high, and rear end not as settled.

Racing does have high speeds, late braking and close passing. Thats what racing is right? I'm not trying to say that the track is for everyone, but if you want to get the most out of your riding, and the most out of your life, its the only place to push a motorcycle. I'm sure you have yet to see the limits of your bike on the street. Only at the track can you really open up a bike and see what its made of.

[tarded400]

Ha... I don't think I've even found the limits of my bike at the track.

[dragos13]

Ha... I don't think I've even found the limits of my bike at the track.


Neither have I lol. I guess the track riding brings knowledge, and riding hard on the street just isn't something I'm wiling to risk anymore.

[fullgrownbear]

I think what Sal is saying, is that the track is just as dangerous, and can be just as deadly.

We know this to be true. Track fatalities happen every year, as do fatalities in the canyons. I myself am a firm believer in it's more than when your number is up, than the surrounding circumstances, that lead to your end here on earth.

[dragos13]

I think what Sal is saying, is that the track is just as dangerous, and can be just as deadly.

We know this to be true. Track fatalities happen every year, as do fatalities in the canyons. I myself am a firm believer in it's more than when your number is up, than the surrounding circumstances, that lead to your end here on earth.

You know this to be true???

Can you compare fatality numbers from the street with numbers from the track? I know of one death in the MRA and one death in MotoGP. I can name way more deaths that have occured on the street, in 08 alone.

[fullgrownbear]

You know what, It's all dangerous any way you look at it.


Like I said in the last part of my post, "I myself am a firm believer in it's more than when your number is up, than the surrounding circumstances, that lead to your end here on earth."


Now we can argue this all day long, and you will have valid points, and so will I.

The bottom line will stay the same, It's all dangerous. You take on an inherant risk every time you twist the throttle.

[dragos13]

I'm not saying track riding isn't dangerous, however racing in a controlled environment is much safer then the street. We have run offs, ambulance, corner workers, emergency crew, etc. Also, all bikes are up to point, tech inspected, and ready to ride. Also, full gear, 1 piece leathers, spine protector, race boots, helmet, etc.

I have no idea how you can argue that track riding is just as dangerous as street riding. Guess I must be missing something.

[HOTCARCASS]

I guess there is no real clear definition of limit. It is different for every rider. Your limit is relative to your ability. AMA VS GP both full of great riders and yet vastly different limits. I'm talking rider ability not MCycle capeability. Relative to AMA superbike or super stock or sport few of us have yet to find the limit of a sport bike on the track. Truth be told I hope to never see the limit on a motorcycle. I live to ride, and take every percausion when riding weather on the track or street. I have three sons that mean so much more to me then the limit of a motorcycle. I just get sick of Racers goin on and on and on and on about the track, just because someone wants to know a little bit about cornering.

[co750]

Obviously there are people who have decided to ride on the street, there are people who have decided to ride on a track, and there are people who do both. The original post was asking for help with riding technique, something that will do more for a rider than any gear or aftermarket part. By simply getting on a soapbox and condeming them for not taking your view is not going to benefit this person. I applaud the folks who gave real advice because learning to ride better could ultimately save that persons life. To act as if riding a bike anywhere but a track is an act of suicide simply puts you in line with the ignorant masses who see us all as eventual road splatters. I doubt that anyone is promoting riding on the road at the limits of your bike, or more importantly at the limits of your riding skill. But there are very responsible and relatively safe ways to improve your skills and get a little excitement while riding the streets. Learn your limits, know your limits and ride within your limits whether on a street or a track.