Downshifting to first

[Ricky]

I've got a question that I think about every single time I'm on the CBR. In the Ninja it wasn't a big deal because in first you could only go like 25mph, so downshifting from second into first was useless unless coming to a near complete stop.

Is it bad to downshift into first at high speeds, even if you're still within am ok RPM range for first gear?

The reason I ask this is thinking about driving a car that is a stick. Downshifting into first, isn't always good for the tranny and can sometimes be difficult especially when rpms are not equal to the speed of the tranny because the clutch is disengaged and not in gear. Generally taking a corner you go into second and never even consider first gear unless coming to a crawl.

All I'm trying to get at is if it's at all bad on a bike transmission to shift down into first due to the neutral gap between first and second gear. Even if I'm going like 30, I will usually not downshift into first just because I'm trying not to break anything, but maybe I'm being too paranoid. I don't even generally consider using first to downshift as I'm slowing down. I go into second, then straight to neutral as I'm coming to a stop.

Any knowledge would be super helpful!

[~Barn~]

What's up Ricky.

I've you're matching revs, and you're not pinning the RPMs to the moon, any downshift combination you can think of, is probably fine. It's not uncommon to even skip gears, and do a 3rd->1st shift for example. All you have to do, is work on the finesse of your throttle "blip", to get those RPMs close to synced. Of course if you ever ride something with a back-torque limiter (aka slipper clutch), that's a whole other story.

Incidently, I would make a point of slowing to stop, while still in a gear, ideally 1st, and get outta that habit of being in neutral as you slow your final few feet. If you ever have to make a quick "get-the-F-outta-the-way" manuever because you're about to be rear-ended, you will understand why being in neutral will be a bad thing. Just beef up that clutch hand!
=)

[dragos13]

Personally, I only use first to get started. When I am slowing down, second gear is the lowest I will downshift too. Then I grab neutral once stopped. I dont suggest shifting into first while moving, even if you are matching the revs. There is really no reason to, as 1st gear is so low and 2nd gear usually works just fine at 30mph and below.

[~Barn~]

Dragos makes a good point. While you're actually underway and in motion, I can't really think of too many reasons why you'd have to get down into first. I mean short of wanting to nail a little throttle wheelie, or accelerating away from somebody with extreme prejudice, there's not much purpose to 1st-gear around town. Maybe wanting to leave a darkie, exiting a corner or something. :dunno:

That being said though, I still would never find myself riding out neutral whilst coming to a stop; or even stopping in 2nd and then finding neutral, while you wait for the light. At least not when there is any traffic to speak of.

I just have this freak out, about seeing some spacecase driver in my mirror, barreling down on me while fixing their makeup, or chatting away on their cell phone, unaware that traffic infront of them has stopped. I guess it boils down to personal preference, but then again I a firm believer that complacency is the #1 cause of accidents, of motorcyclists.

[Ricky]

Oh, I definitely don't go into neutral until I'm stopped, but like dragos, I just tend to not downshift into first, but rather use 2nd until I'm almost to a stop, then clutch to a stop, then straight to N, or all the way down to first.

I think what is REALLY concerning me is just the typical hard "bang" of the shift back into first from 2nd, compared to any other downshift. I just don't want to get into the habit of shifting down into first, even occasionally, for that little blast of power, if it's going to do any sort of harm to the tranny.

[MetaLord 9]

I shift down into first regularly as I'm often in stop & go traffic and I've got relatively tall gearing on my bike. I haven't experienced any tranny issues with it, nor do I really even get a bang into first to often, as long as I'm matching rpms & not skying the needle. I've got virtually no low end torque so being in first will really help me in case I've gotta make a getaway where as popping the throttle at the very bottom of second will have a substantially lessened result. my $.02

[Spy007]

The bang is typically from not havin the rev's match... plus there's the additional throw in the tranny because it has the notch for neutral I would imagine.

[Xtremjeepn]

..., as 1st gear is so low ....


Funny. My R1 first gear redlines at 105mph. Can't imagine downshifting into it anywhere below the 30mph range being too low. (plus I have a slipper clutch)

Not sure about the 08 600rr but I would imagine it has a really high first gear too. In 28 years of riding I have always downshifted to 1st gear coming to a stop. I have never seen an ill effect on a bike because of it.

Do it a little too fast and you might lock up the rear tire without a slipper clutch but that is true of any motorized vehicle. Use the gears to your advantage. Shift into first at the appropriate speed and ease the clutch out. It will be fine.

There is a reason the bike has a first gear. I would worry more about being in the neutral gap and it popping into gear. Your current practice of being in neutral is more dangerous. Both for the reason mentioned above and for the danger of it grabbing a gear. For the most part you should NEVER be in neutral on a bike while it is rolling. Very easy for them to catch a gear and send you flying. If you must be in neutral, keep the clutch in too.

[Spy007]

yay for false neutral!

[dragos13]

Funny. My R1 first gear redlines at 105mph. Can't imagine downshifting into it anywhere below the 30mph range being too low. (plus I have a slipper clutch)

Not sure about the 08 600rr but I would imagine it has a really high first gear too. In 28 years of riding I have always downshifted to 1st gear coming to a stop. I have never seen an ill effect on a bike because of it.

Do it a little too fast and you might lock up the rear tire without a slipper clutch but that is true of any motorized vehicle. Use the gears to your advantage. Shift into first at the appropriate speed and ease the clutch out. It will be fine.

There is a reason the bike has a first gear. I would worry more about being in the neutral gap and it popping into gear. Your current practice of being in neutral is more dangerous. Both for the reason mentioned above and for the danger of it grabbing a gear. For the most part you should NEVER be in neutral on a bike while it is rolling. Very easy for them to catch a gear and send you flying. If you must be in neutral, keep the clutch in too.

Just because first gear can go "105mph" doesn't mean you should shift down into it. Also, not everyone has slipper clutches. I understand that you feel it is ok, and thats a great opinion.

However, can you explain the second part tho? How does a bike catch a gear? Are you saying that rolling in neutral, the bike can just grab a gear on its own?

Please dont think i'm flaming your opinion, just wondering how you came to your conclusion.

[Spy007]

Ive heard of older bikes not being able to keep neutral on occasion... but none of the newer bikes (2k and up).

[Ricky]

I'm definitely not riding in neutral, just not downshifting into first or neutral until completely stopped. And usually if I'm going all the way into first, I wait until that last second before being completely stopped before shifting to first (<15mph)

[Xtremjeepn]

How does a bike catch a gear? Are you saying that rolling in neutral, the bike can just grab a gear on its own?



Yes. It has been a motorcycling problem for many years. Maybe they have found a way to totally eleminate it on newer bikes but I really kinda doubt it.

Any mis-adjustment of your shift lever can put it the shift mechanism dangerously close to the spinning gears inside. Any slight bump, touch or even the weight of the lever can move it to catch the gears and no longer be in nuetral. It will essentialy shift into gear on it's own. Neutral is a gap in the gearset. Which means when you are in neutral there is a spinning gear on both sides of your engangement gear. All you have to do is move a fraction of an inch in either direction and it will snag one of those spinning gears.

If you ever ride and shift without the clutch you know how easy a motorcycle transmission shifts from one gear to the next without any clutch or even throttle input.

[Ricky]

If you ever ride and shift without the clutch you know how easy a motorcycle transmission shifts from one gear to the next without any clutch or even throttle input.

Especially when close ratio...

[dragos13]

If you ever ride and shift without the clutch you know how easy a motorcycle transmission shifts from one gear to the next without any clutch or even throttle input.

I actually do almost all my shifting without the clutch (bike has a quick-shifter for upshifts, and I just blip the throttle if downshifting one gear). I also always come to a stop with the bike rolling in neutral and have NEVER had a gear engage on its own. The bike "should not" go into gear unless you press on the shifter. I guess if you have some adjustments way out of wack it could happen, but then you are talking about all new issues. Just my $.02

[Xtremjeepn]

I have seen it happen farily often over the last 28 years.

You are right, it should not happen, but it does and can. Just keep the clutch in and you should be okay.

[Ricky]

I actually do almost all my shifting without the clutch (bike has a quick-shifter for upshifts, and I just blip the throttle if downshifting one gear). I also always come to a stop with the bike rolling in neutral and have NEVER had a gear engage on its own. The bike "should not" go into gear unless you press on the shifter. I guess if you have some adjustments way out of wack it could happen, but then you are talking about all new issues. Just my $.02

I don't think he's saying that it'll just "happen" on its own, but even resting your foot above the shifter in preparation for a shift from neutral could be enough pressure to start the shift process and have a gear catch, then engage...

[dragos13]

I don't think he's saying that it'll just "happen" on its own, but even resting your foot above the shifter in preparation for a shift from neutral could be enough pressure to start the shift process and have a gear catch, then engage...

thats a very good point, especially when people start adding quick-shifters. Good way to avoid this, is to keep on the balls of your feet. When you have your foor "lightly" resting above the shifter, then yes very minimal input will cause it to grab a gear.

not trying to argue with anyone here, just expressing what I know from personal experience. I understand that everyone else is probably just doing the same.

[jimwallace]

okay...you got me. im gonna throw my two cents in. i down shift to first myself but i only do it when coming to a stop. it has alway been a habit to me to downshift to a full stop. i have never had an ill effect and honestly i think it has been beneficial in the way of still being in gear so i can run away when someone is trying to run me over, saves on my brakes a little (not much but hey), it also lowers the risk of my tires sliding on anything. but all this is just my riding style as for running canyons and corners i have never needed to drop to first as i havent met a turn sharp enough for that. my suggestion is that you should do what feels comfortable and natural to you. you wont hurt your bike by downshifting unless you do something very wrong in which case you will know.but once again this is all my $.02

[tarded400]

Never had a problem in 5 years with shifting into 1st while moving. On the SV because of the engine braking I blip the throttle, but on my 4 cylinder I rarely did.

[Xtremjeepn]

...as for running canyons and corners i have never needed to drop to first as i havent met a turn sharp enough for that. ....


Glen Haven route to Estes Park:turtle:

[tarded400]

+1... I always loved that corner on the motard... There IS a place for dirt bike gearing!

[Bueller]

I slam down 3 gears into first all the time, then dump the clutch while applying a regulated amount of rear brake, lean the bike into the opposite direction the rear tire slide and counter steer the piss out of it.
No tranny issues yet..........oh wait it's a Tard, never mind. :lol: