Yay Democrats!

[Shea]

For the love of everything holy! GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How about F*CKING government get out of the damn economy instead of screwing it up even more!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081112/ap_on_go_co/auto_bailout

One step closer to the state owning the means of production. You should be proud Jeff...

Can an individual secede from the Union?

[Canuck]

I guess that you are still in denial that it was 30+ years of deregulation, (Neocon Reganomics with a touch of Ryan-ism) that brought the world economy to this current downward tread.
I used to be a Libertarian just like you in ideological thought. But then I became enlightened.

[Sortarican]

So you're siding with the Rebumblicans who basically say:
"Bail out us yuppies who bought 500K houses and the Financial institutions, but fuck Detroit.....I drive a Lexus"?


Can an individual secede from the Union?

No.
But I'd be more than happy to stuff you in the trunk, drive you across the boarder,
and leave you naked on the side of the road to Jarez if you'd like.

I know, what can I say? I'm a giver.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Well, a couple things:
1. First and foremost, the domestics need to start producing quality products people WANT to buy. Unless something changes in the future, my truck (that I'm totally pissed at for quality reasons) will be my last domestic.

2. I heard there's a lot of investment exects that will get a big bonus from the bailout money WE just gave them.....unless our gov't really looks at how that money is sent.

3. I'd rather save the auto industry than the banking industry, as we NEED to keep manufacturing SOMETHING in this country. Living in Cleveland, I saw how the cuts hurt everybody in the industry and those that support it. We can NOT allow ourselves to become simply a "service-industry" country.

Edit:

Man, Jeff snuck one in here before I was able to finish my rant? And I didn't even get to say anything derogatory about our president-elect? Damn! :)

[rforsythe]

On Frank's post...

1. I agree for the most part. I'm actually happy with my F350, but most of the domestic cars I've driven have been total shit. Fact is though a lot of foreign cars are made right here in the US of A, while domestics tend to be farmed out to Mexico. Just cause the corporation is filed in the lower 48 doesn't mean much these days.

2. The gov't has looked at where the money is sent. Don't mistake silent awareness for apathy.

3. I'd rather see the industries save themselves. Both are vital to our economy, but both participate in a free economy. At some point (likely when the bailout money is gone, and someone finally figures out we can't just print more) poorly run companies must be allowed to run their course, while more efficient ones take their place. Creative destruction is a key principle of capitalism. When that is not allowed to take place, progress more or less screeches to a halt. That doesn't mean it isn't a painful process sometimes, but it is a necessary one.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

On Frank's post...

1. I agree for the most part. I'm actually happy with my F350, but most of the domestic cars I've driven have been total shit. Fact is though a lot of foreign cars are made right here in the US of A, while domestics tend to be farmed out to Mexico. Just cause the corporation is filed in the lower 48 doesn't mean much these days.

2. The gov't has looked at where the money is sent. Don't mistake silent awareness for apathy.

3. I'd rather see the industries save themselves. Both are vital to our economy, but both participate in a free economy. At some point (likely when the bailout money is gone, and someone finally figures out we can't just print more) poorly run companies must be allowed to run their course, while more efficient ones take their place. Creative destruction is a key principle of capitalism. When that is not allowed to take place, progress more or less screeches to a halt. That doesn't mean it isn't a painful process sometimes, but it is a necessary one.
WooHoo! Happy day, Ralph and I agree!

Well, it's no so much made as DESIGNED. We just......don't get it, I guess. Dunno. I've had a lot of stupid problems with domestics, and my truck, and I'm done. Next time, Tundra baby!

[Pandora-11]

[quote=CYCLE_MONKEY;380293]Well, a couple things:
1. First and foremost, the domestics need to start producing quality products people WANT to buy. Unless something changes in the future, my truck (that I'm totally pissed at for quality reasons) will be my last domestic.

No one wants to buy a domestic more than I do; however, a lifetime of experience tells me not to. I've owned Ford, a Chevrolet, and a Plymouth van and all have been nightmares. We swear by Toyotas and Hondas. My 6 year old Lexus (Toyota) hasn't been in the shop for anything other than routine maintenance and tires. I'd get another one in a minute if I could, but will run this one until it drops. Currently, about 120,000 miles.
I have no idea what to tell the US auto industry except that I personally don't care about the toys inside it, make it run when I get in it.

[dirkterrell]

3. I'd rather see the industries save themselves. Both are vital to our economy, but both participate in a free economy. At some point (likely when the bailout money is gone, and someone finally figures out we can't just print more) poorly run companies must be allowed to run their course, while more efficient ones take their place. Creative destruction is a key principle of capitalism. When that is not allowed to take place, progress more or less screeches to a halt. That doesn't mean it isn't a painful process sometimes, but it is a necessary one.

+10^6

Dirk

[Shea]

So you're siding with the Rebumblicans who basically say:
"Bail out us yuppies who bought 500K houses and the Financial institutions, but fuck Detroit.....I drive a Lexus"?


No I don't believe bailing any of them out is healthy. Nor do I believe that government involving itself in the ownership of these companies can lead to anything positive.

Jeff, you know I am nowhere near giving any of these robber barons a pass (no matter what party they are from).

[Shea]

I guess that you are still in denial that it was 30+ years of deregulation, (Neocon Reganomics with a touch of Ryan-ism) that brought the world economy to this current downward tread.
I used to be a Libertarian just like you in ideological thought. But then I became enlightened.

Nice, so enlighten me oh wise one...How does government, in it's infinite wisdom and capacity for good, plan to save us from this mess (of it's own creation)? Or does your enlightenment only go as far as sticking your head in the sand and calling out for Obama?

[The Black Knight]

What I don't get is why everyone piles on American made cars and trucks. Granted I get there are some crappy cars/trucks running around out there. But my personal opinion is I think people just don't maintain their vehicles as they should.

I've owned nothing but American vehicles save for 2 foreign vehicles. I've had two Mustangs(1979, 2002) two Camaros(1983, 1995), 1984 Corvette, 1980 Mercury Zephyr(I know hilarious), 1 Dodge Ram(1999), two Ford trucks(1976, 1970 Highboy), 2007 Ford Focus, 2002 Silverado.(don't ask how I've come to drive all these, just know I've been in the game since I was 16 wheeling and dealing)

2001 Toyota Tacoma and a 1984 Mazda RX-7(first car):

Now aside from the 84 Vette and the 79 Mustang all the American cars I've owned have been great. The Vette and old Mustang were piles, but that's to be expected from the abuse that was shown to them before me. The Dodge had a bit of a tranny problem(but that was common on Dodge's from 96-2000).

The RX-7 was a gigantic POS. Nothing worked on that car but for $1600 as a first car I guess you get what you pay for. Carburated 4 Barrel always flooded the floats. Transmission was weaksauce. The stereo system was killer though.

The Toyota was o.k. didn't really light my rockets, a bit small and gas mileage wasn't much better than my Silverado. Even for having a V6 I got 20mpg at best. Silverado has touched 19mpg a couple times, normally I'm in the 16-18 consistant range in town.

But I've always maintained my vehicles to the best of my ability. All of them have always ran fine. I know everyone loves to pile on American vehicles but I wouldn't own anything but American. Jap and Euro cars are nice and very well made. I just think you end up paying for the name and getting the same car as you would with a American car. I know I know, I'm crazy.

Sure everyone says jap stuff goes for 100k's of miles. Thing is, every old Ford pickup I've owned has been well over 200k, and still ran like champs. My 70' with a 390ci was strong. Sure you replace parts like an alternator or starter. But that's kind of the fun part with those old trucks. Yeah I get some people have never been under the hood of their own vehicle and much less would know what to do with a wrench. So for some, yeah I say get the most reliable vehicle you can find. For me, I'll stick with American, hasn't let me down yet.

Frank(Cycle_Monkey) you might want to check these videos out before you go by a Tundra.
Dodge vs. Tundra(Dodge almost yanks the frame out from underneath the Tundra)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JcvP4D81CI
Dodge vs. Titan(HAHA yeah right)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKFH1qey4QA

[R1chie]

Well, now that we live in an Obama nation. I want my handouts now please. I want him to pay down my mortgage, lower my interest rate on the balance. Also I am a minority, I want a larger cut of the jobs, I want enforcment of manditory quotas and a larger percentage of them. I want free health care too. I don't want to pay taxes and want the rich to spread the wealth and give me some, and since I am a minority, I don't want to pay taxes at all and the taxation of the rich to line my pockets so I can quit my job. It would be nice to have welfare back again so I can abuse it and make money off of it. I also want the free education so I can become a full time student and make money that way too.

I don't care if he fixes the economy, I just want my handouts now please just as Obama promisedl:lol:

[DavidofColorado]

I want to see what happens if the big three automakers refuse to sell out to Obama? I think they will burn them down. They are the party of old ideas that don't work after all. But they think they are enlightened so very low self esteem and penis envy so they won't take rejection very well. He might nuke em.

[MAZIN]

Well, now that we live in an Obama nation. I want my handouts now please. I want him to pay down my mortgage, lower my interest rate on the balance. Also I am a minority, I want a larger cut of the jobs, I want enforcment of manditory quotas and a larger percentage of them. I want free health care too. I don't want to pay taxes and want the rich to spread the wealth and give me some, and since I am a minority, I don't want to pay taxes at all and the taxation of the rich to line my pockets so I can quit my job. It would be nice to have welfare back again so I can abuse it and make money off of it. I also want the free education so I can become a full time student and make money that way too.

I don't care if he fixes the economy, I just want my handouts now please just as Obama promisedl:lol:


Sign me up and along with the bailout can I get my student loans paid for plz!

[DavidofColorado]

Sign me up and along with the bailout can I get my student loans paid for plz!
Then what are you going to do when the well runs dry?

[MrMischief]

Frank(Cycle_Monkey) you might want to check these videos out before you go by a Tundra.
Dodge vs. Tundra(Dodge almost yanks the frame out from underneath the Tundra)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JcvP4D81CI
Dodge vs. Titan(HAHA yeah right)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKFH1qey4QA

I have a 2006 Dodge Ram 1500 and I love it. It's got more then enough capability for me, it rides great and I love how it looks. I have 40,000 miles on it so far and there have been no trouble. But are these videos fair? In Dodge vs Titan the Dodge is a dually, so it's at least a 2500 probably a 3500. It better pull a Titan around. In the Dodge vs Tundra I can't tell but I believe the Dodge is again a 2500. Here is a Dodge 1500 vs Tundra:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HQcJuvK73E
Now this video is also BS. The Dodge appears to be in 2wd and it's at WOT spinning the tires so there is virtually no traction it can have. The Tundra barely slips a tire so it's probably in 4x4 to help prevent wheel spin, or it may just have a more intelligent driver in it. Either way, tires are going to be a huge factor. I'm just surprised the Tundra's tranny fall apart, or the tailgate didn't fall off, or the motor didn't blow due to a faulty camshaft, or the driveshaft didn't snap. My point is every manufacturer has problems, even Toyota.

[Shea]

Then what are you going to do when the well runs dry?

I don't think you understand, the well can never run dry. Those suckers who think that hard work is the way to wealth will still try and "make it". As long as we have them, we can keep taking it for the greater good.

Obamanomics 101.

[dirkterrell]

Miss Taggart, do you know the hallmark of the second - rater? It's resentment of another man's achievement. Those touchy mediocrities who sit trembling lest someone's work prove greater than their own -- they have no inkling of the loneliness that comes when you reach the top. The loneliness for an equal - for a mind to respect and an achievement to admire. They bare their teeth at you from out of their rat holes, thinking you take pleasure in letting your brilliance dim them - while you'd give a year of your life to see a flicker of talent anywhere among them. They envy achievement, and their dream of greatness is a world where all men have become their acknowledged inferiors. They don't know that that dream is infallible proof of mediocrity, because that sort of world is what the man of achievement would not be able to bear. They have no way of knowing what he feels when surrounded by inferiors - hatred? No, not hatred, but boredom - the terrible, hopeless, draining, paralyzing boredom. Of what account are praise and adulation from men whom you don't respect? Have you ever felt the longing for someone you could admire? For something, not to look down at, but up to?


from Atlas Shrugged

Dirk

[Sortarican]

The nationalization of the banks and any other industry bailed out is damn right!
WE are the nation, WE are paying the money out, WE should own their asses.
They don't have to take the money if they don't want it.

The only ones truely being penalized are the solvent companies that could have been buying out the failing ones.
Though that happened a little bit already and now none of them have that kind of capitol to swollow any more.


Man, Jeff snuck one in here before I was able to finish my rant? And I didn't even get to say anything derogatory about our president-elect? Damn! :)

You will Frank.....you will.:)
(Though apparently you are the only one that realizes he's not in office yet, kuddos to Frank!)


... poorly run companies must be allowed to run their course, while more efficient ones take their place. Creative destruction is a key principle of capitalism....

NOW we're going to be economic Darwinists?
Sorry, that only works if you do it throughout all economic cycles.
You can't put out every small fire in a forest for 20 years and THEN switch back to a natural burn policy.
By then it's too late unless you want to see 80% of it burn.


..Jeff, you know I am nowhere near giving any of these robber barons a pass (no matter what party they are from).

Yeah I know Shea, but that doesn't preclude me from firing one across your bow. (It's just too much fun.)
Besides, you titled it as a Dem (aka Obama) bash and he's not even in office yet.


Well, now that we live in an Obama nation. I want my handouts now please..... I don't care if he fixes the economy, I just want my handouts now please just as Obama promisedl:lol:

Wow, I'm used to telling you people that you're living in the past,
but apparently you're all living in the future.
Or did my watch stop and it's actually Jan. 20th and Obama is in office.
(Though I'm really surprised that Obamanation isn't a more popular phrase, I want a shirt that says that.)


I don't think you understand, the well can never run dry. Those suckers who think that hard work is the way to wealth will still try and "make it". As long as we have them, we can keep taking it for the greater good.
Obamanomics 101.

Actually the well won't go dry because they'll just keep printing money.
(As for Obamanomics....I double checked, and just like I thought it's still November.......calendars for all my conservative friends this X-Mas)

[Shea]

Guess that the difference between you and I Dirk. I look upon those that have achieved greatness, power, wealth and I see greed, corruption, evilness and theft. Someone that has stood on the backs of the poor worker and stolen from each and every one of us. You see someone/something you can aspire to, something that inspires you to climb that mountain and attain the greatness that is inherent in your very soul. I pity you, I really do.

[Sortarican]

from Atlas Shrugged Dirk

You realize Ayn Rand was considered a communist in the old days?
(Though she was about as anti-totalitarianism as a person could get.)




Guess that the difference between you and I Dirk. I look upon those that have achieved greatness, power, wealth and I see greed, corruption, evilness and theft. Someone that has stood on the backs of the poor worker and stolen from each and every one of us. You .

:lol:
If I could have hacked Shea's account I SO would have posted something like that.
(For you kids at home.....it's called sarcasm....good one Shea.)

[dirkterrell]

Another of my favorite quotes from Atlas Shrugged:


If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose- because it contains all the others- the fact that they were the people who created the phrase to make money. No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity- to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

Guess that the difference between you and I Dirk. I look upon those that have achieved greatness, power, wealth and I see greed, corruption, evilness and theft.

http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/goofy.gif

Dirk

[Shea]

Yeah I know Shea, but that doesn't preclude me from firing one across your bow. (It's just too much fun.)
Besides, you titled it as a Dem (aka Obama) bash and he's not even in office yet.

Because the story is about Pelosi/Reid (both Dems the last time I checked). The Dems run both houses of the legislative branch and are bringing up these bailout plans/passing them. Yes, the idiot Bush is signing them, but our glorious President-Elect is also in favor of them. There's enough blame to go around but the Dems are running the show at the moment.



Actually the well won't go dry because they'll just keep printing money.
(As for Obamanomics....I double checked, and just like I thought it's still November.......calendars for all my conservative friends this X-Mas)

At some point, not only will the well run dry but we will be turning back the clock to the great years of Carter (you know, the guy you think really, really cared for the average guy) and our inflation rate will SKYROCKET. 10, 100, 1000% inflation, how much will it take to make this country crack? All so we can bailout these retards who bought off enough politicians to get these sweet deals. You, me and the average Joe will be paying the price for this.

As for Obama. He for all intents and purposes (and if one looks at the press coverages) is already President. He's proposing legislation, new bailouts and his willing accomplices in the House and Senate are taking their marching orders from him. The new atmosphere of "hope and change" are here, breakout your checkbooks.

[Mother Goose]

Jesus Christ! I thought that after the election was over I'd stop hearing about all this political bullshit. Guess not. :rolleyes:

Can we get a political area for all this? :lol:

[Sortarican]

from Atlas Shrugged Dirk

I love Ayn's books, though I've only read Atlas,Foutain, and Anthem.

Neil's a big fan of hers too:

Live for yourself, there's no one else
More worth living for
Begging hands and bleeding hearts will
Only cry out for more
Rush - Anthem

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
'These oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light.'
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Ax,
And saw.
Rush - The Trees

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still haven't made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.
Rush - Free Will

[Shea]

irRegardless of what Dana says about them, I love Rush :)

[MetaLord 9]

Been a big fan of Anthem since Jr. High. Atlas & Fountain are sitting on the shelves waiting for me to stop being juvenile and reading such comparatively lowbrow books such as DaVinci Code, Harry Potter, & the Lord of the Rings series. One day, mind opening books, one day...

[Snowman]

Rush - Anthem

Rush - The Trees

Rush - Free WillThat just proves the Canadians have a better idea about it that we do…

[dirkterrell]

I love Ayn's books, though I've only read Atlas,Foutain, and Anthem.

Neil's a big fan of hers too:


Yep, and a big reason why I like Rush great music and great lyrics.

(waiting for snide comment from Dana...) http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/goofy.gif

Dirk

[Sortarican]

Because the story is about Pelosi/Reid (both Dems the last time I checked). The Dems run both houses of the legislative branch and are bringing up these bailout plans/passing them..... As for Obama. He for all intents and purposes (and if one looks at the press coverages) is already President...

You seriously think it's mainly the Dem's that played the bailout card?:no:
Though you've tossed a little "yeah they're all guilty" out there, your partisan beleifs always lay the bulk of the blame on the party that's only
had Congress for less than 2 years and hasn't had the White House in 8.:think:

Seriously Chicken Little, instead of a calendar, I'm getting you an aluminum foil hat for X-Mas.

You and Dirk and Richie and BK all post your FEARS as if they're FACTS.
Lobby against Obama's plans, fine, but stop saying what started a year and a half ago (or 20 if you want to be more accurate) was caused by his administration.

[dirkterrell]

Been a big fan of Anthem since Jr. High. Atlas & Fountain are sitting on the shelves waiting for me to stop being juvenile and reading such comparatively lowbrow books such as DaVinci Code, Harry Potter, & the Lord of the Rings series. One day, mind opening books, one day...

Read Atlas, dude. I still remember reading it for the first time and thinking almost continuously "Wow!" It really is an awesome work. It's a shame it isn't required reading in high school classes.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

You and Dirk and Richie and BK all post your FEARS as if they're FACTS.
Lobby against Obama's plans, fine, but stop saying what started a year and a half ago (or 20 if you want to be more accurate) was caused by his administration.

Where did I say that?

Dirk

[Sortarican]

Where did I say that?

Dirk

Oh I think you know what you did! :lol:

Sorry Dirk, you got me, I thought you +1'd a couple people's Obama's the Devil posts.


I was wrong.......Shit, is there a smaller font than 1 for retractions?

[puckstr]

Obama?
McCain?

ha ha they ALL SUCK

[dirkterrell]

Oh I think you know what you did! :lol:

Sorry Dirk, you got me, I thought you +1'd a couple people's Obama's the Devil posts.


That wouldn't be my style of discourse. :) I may disagree very strongly with his approach in some areas but I don't think for a minute that he is "evil" and isn't doing what he honestly believes is the best for the country. I just think he's misguided on some of these things. On the other hand, there are things I agree with him (and the Democrats) on (e.g., see Vance's thread about gay marriage).

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

Obama?
McCain?

ha ha they ALL SUCK

My approach is to be suspicious of all of them. :)

Dirk

[Sortarican]

My approach is to be suspicious of all of them. :) Dirk

A prudent mindset to say the least.

We as citizens are the ultimate "checks and balances".

I would love to see an option to solving our current problems that didn't involve heavy government involvment.
Unfortunelty only something as large as the government (and citizenry) could have gotten us into these problems
and only something as large as the government (and citizenry) has any hope of getting us out of it.
Unless we want to wait for the total collapse of the world economy.
At which point only the military will get us out of the rioting that will take place.
(Shit, now I'm being Chicken Little.)

[dirkterrell]

A prudent mindset to say the least.

We as citizens are the ultimate "checks and balances".



Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

Thomas Jefferson

[dirkterrell]

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

Thomas Jefferson

(Which explains my unyielding stance on 2nd amendment rights despite attempts to label people like myself as "wacko" on that topic. "Yes, it happened before but it couldn't happen in modern times." Yeah, that's what good people thought was true in the past when tyranny came crashing down on them.)

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Or does your enlightenment only go as far as sticking your head in the sand and calling out for Obama?
Well, maybe not sticking it in the SAND.......:)

[TFOGGuys]

I'm reminded of a punchline to a very old joke....


Would it be possible to assemble all of the politicians and lobbyists in DC, then build a wall 500 feet high around it?

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Then fill it with cement?

[guegreen]

Kinda funny that the highest-level acolyte of Ayn Rand, Alan Greenspan (who was actually in her social circle) just admitted before Congress that he kinda, sorta got it all wrong in setting the stage for the financial debacle...
Greenspan (R) was all for gutting the Glass-Steagall act (the New Deal financial services firewalls, which kept banks from investing in derivatives like CDSs and collateralized mortgage securities, which is what caused this mess), passing the Financial Service Modernization Act (Gramm-Leach-Bliley) (all R), signed into law at the last minute by Clinton (D).
But wouldn't want to seek simple explanations for complex problems, would we.
All men are slaves to dead economists (and apparently philosophers as well).

By the way, Greenspan bio should be great reading for Rand fanatics-- it is a great book, whatever the verdict on the man's monetary policy might be.

[DavidofColorado]

Its Obama's fault... or it will be.

How long before they turn on him?

[Sortarican]

Its Obama's fault... or it will be.

:lol:
Remember when I called you a douche Dave?

After further review the play stands as called:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0er5eyO9MKcEp/340x.jpg

[DavidofColorado]

I'm just getting it ready. I don't want to be the last to jump on the ban wagon of president bashing.

Don't be haten on me because my predictions are based on the past events and yours are based on poetry. Damn hippy.

[Sortarican]

http://www.moonbattery.com/haight-hippie.jpg

[DavidofColorado]

Your still an alright hippy, Jeff.

[puckstr]

My approach is to be suspicious of all of them. :)

Dirk

As we all should be :)

[R1chie]

Oh I think you know what you did! :lol:

Sorry Dirk, you got me, I thought you +1'd a couple people's Obama's the Devil posts.


I was wrong.......Shit, is there a smaller font than 1 for retractions?

Obama is the debil. :)

Oh and I never said that. He is a socialist and he states he wants redistribute the wealth. I think that is a good reason to have fear.

The is nothing to fear but Obama itself. Fear is the mind killer, after your mind has been turned to socialistic mush, your mind is might as well be dead because the only thing you have to live for is the next gov handout. Well actual a handout taking from the rich. LOL

[Cars-R-Coffins]

Well, now that we live in an Obama nation. I want my handouts now please. I want him to pay down my mortgage, lower my interest rate on the balance. Also I am a minority, I want a larger cut of the jobs, I want enforcment of manditory quotas and a larger percentage of them. I want free health care too. I don't want to pay taxes and want the rich to spread the wealth and give me some, and since I am a minority, I don't want to pay taxes at all and the taxation of the rich to line my pockets so I can quit my job. It would be nice to have welfare back again so I can abuse it and make money off of it. I also want the free education so I can become a full time student and make money that way too.

I don't care if he fixes the economy, I just want my handouts now please just as Obama promisedl:lol:

I'm not a minority but I still want my slice of the pie. Gimmee, gimmee!

[puckstr]

I'm not a minority but I still want my slice of the pie. Gimmee, gimmee!


I want "Punch and Pie"

[Cars-R-Coffins]

Sorry but all the Kool-Aid is gone. Now all that's left is pie ...and lots of it according to O.

[Sortarican]

Religion is the opiate of the masses. :)

Oh and I never said that. God is a big bully and he states he wants your wealth. I think that is a good reason to have fear.

There is nothing to fear but religion itself. Fear is the mind killer, after your mind has been turned to religious mush, your mind might as well be dead because the only thing you have to live for is the rapture. Well actual that and tithing to the rich preists. LOL

^ ^^ Fixed it for ya Rich.:up:

BTW, you will be spared during the "re-education" purges of my regime
along with Piezy, Shea, Steve, Chris, and Frank.
DavidofCO will also be allowed to live, because a dictatorship without people to laugh at is a dictatorship not worth having.):king:

[The Black Knight]

I have a 2006 Dodge Ram 1500 and I love it. It's got more then enough capability for me, it rides great and I love how it looks. I have 40,000 miles on it so far and there have been no trouble. But are these videos fair? In Dodge vs Titan the Dodge is a dually, so it's at least a 2500 probably a 3500. It better pull a Titan around. In the Dodge vs Tundra I can't tell but I believe the Dodge is again a 2500. Here is a Dodge 1500 vs Tundra:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HQcJuvK73E
Now this video is also BS. The Dodge appears to be in 2wd and it's at WOT spinning the tires so there is virtually no traction it can have. The Tundra barely slips a tire so it's probably in 4x4 to help prevent wheel spin, or it may just have a more intelligent driver in it. Either way, tires are going to be a huge factor. I'm just surprised the Tundra's tranny fall apart, or the tailgate didn't fall off, or the motor didn't blow due to a faulty camshaft, or the driveshaft didn't snap. My point is every manufacturer has problems, even Toyota.

Only reason I posted those videos(and yes the Dodge v. Titan was a 3500 Cummins and the Dodge v. Tundra was a 2500 Cummins) is because I've had people that have those trucks say they can pull anything a Cummins will.

A guy I know that has a Duramax, went down to the local Toyota dealership with a friend of his to look at the Tacoma and Tundra. The Toyo salesman told them, "oh yeah any of our trucks can pull what your Duramax can pull) HAHA he just laughed.

When it comes to trucks, I'm a diehard American guy. Tundra's and Titan's are very nice trucks. But don't tell me they can haul what everyone else can haul or pull the same. Again I know they are both 1/2 ton's, but that's all those two manufactures make. So it's their flagship trucks, so in essence you need to put them up against an American flagship truck i.e. 1 ton, because lets get serious, against a F650 or Dodge 5500 or Chevy 5500 HAHAHAHA. But 1 tons are everywhere so I think if they(Nissan and Toyo) are going to talk the talk, they need to walk the walk.

[DavidofColorado]

^ ^^ Fixed it for ya Rich.:up:

BTW, you will be spared during the "re-education" purges of my regime
along with Piezy, Shea, Steve, Chris, and Frank.
DavidofCO will also be allowed to live, because a dictatorship without people to laugh at is a dictatorship not worth having.):king:

You won't be laughing when I turn you re-education camps into Hogan's Heros.

[Sortarican]

You won't be laughing when I turn you re-education camps into Hogan's Heros.


HOOOOOOOGAAAAAAAN!
http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/klemperer.jpg

[guegreen]

Here's the rub--

I'll pick on Dirk, since he doesn't hide behind an avatar.
One one hand, he backs the super-empowered individualism of Rand; on the other, he's suspicious of Obama and McCain, both who had succeeded in merit-driven world's. Obama was president of the Harvard Law review, one of the pinnacles of meritocracy in America. McCain, despite his class rank, was successful in one of the federal gov'ts most renowned institutions, the Naval Academy.

Dirk is also an advocate of smaller, restrained gov't. But where Dirk works is completely dependent upon Federal funds. Is this the smell of rank hypocrisy, or just cognitive dissonance?

Gov't ought to be restrained, not just because of the potential of impacts on individual liberty, but also because it just screws a lot of things up. The iron law of unintended consequences plays a role, but so does game theory, which suggests that for any given set of rules (laws, regulatory schemes), rational actors will "game" the system, and expend resources to frustrate the aim of the rules in order to reap rewards.
That said, in a complex society, where the rules of the economy are created by gov't, gov't will always play a needful role. Gov't should have a narrowed scope so that it can focus on the roles it must play. There are no free markets-- everything is subject to some form of regulation- licensure, taxation, land use regs. So instead of whining, act to hold gov't accountable. Make sure those National Science Foundation grants that pay Dirk aren't going to waste. (Doesn't gov't spending on basic science have about the highest ROI of any gov't expenditure?)

[dirkterrell]

Here's the rub--

One one hand, he backs the super-empowered individualism of Rand; on the other, he's suspicious of Obama and McCain, both who had succeeded in merit-driven world's.


Not sure I see the conflict there. I have never said I had anything against either of them personally or what they had achieved. When I say I am suspicious of them, I am suspicious of their ideas on how government ought to operate.



Dirk is also an advocate of smaller, restrained gov't. But where Dirk works is completely dependent upon Federal funds. Is this the smell of rank hypocrisy, or just cognitive dissonance?


That would only be a logical conclusion if I advocated no government. Our country's military and economic power are critically dependent on our dominance in scientific research. Basic scientific research is something that is best addressed by government because of its inherent riskiness and long-term payoff (decades or longer). It provides the raw materials for applied research which is best done by the private sector in my opinion.

And we are not completely dependent on Federal funds. We are split roughly 50/50 between government and private contracts.



Gov't ought to be restrained, not just because of the potential of impacts on individual liberty, but also because it just screws a lot of things up.


Agreed.



The iron law of unintended consequences plays a role, but so does game theory, which suggests that for any given set of rules (laws, regulatory schemes), rational actors will "game" the system, and expend resources to frustrate the aim of the rules in order to reap rewards.
That said, in a complex society, where the rules of the economy are created by gov't, gov't will always play a needful role. Gov't should have a narrowed scope so that it can focus on the roles it must play.


Again, agreed.



Make sure those National Science Foundation grants that pay Dirk aren't going to waste. (Doesn't gov't spending on basic science have about the highest ROI of any gov't expenditure?)

Actually, I don't have any NSF grants. :) As for ROI, that's hard to measure accurately but I've seen numbers indicating annual rates of return of several tens of percent. That's not too shabby but the key issue is that most investments made today won't pay off immediately (hence the near impossibility of doing it in the private sector) or even in the short term but decades or more in the future.

Dirk

[Shea]

You seriously think it's mainly the Dem's that played the bailout card?:no:
Though you've tossed a little "yeah they're all guilty" out there, your partisan beleifs always lay the bulk of the blame on the party that's only
had Congress for less than 2 years and hasn't had the White House in 8.:think:

Seriously Chicken Little, instead of a calendar, I'm getting you an aluminum foil hat for X-Mas.

You and Dirk and Richie and BK all post your FEARS as if they're FACTS.
Lobby against Obama's plans, fine, but stop saying what started a year and a half ago (or 20 if you want to be more accurate) was caused by his administration.

I believe you misinterpret my incoherent ramblings sir.

We are where we are due to several, complex factors and the players in this tragedy span the political spectrum. It would be unfair to say that Carter, Reagan, HW Bush, Clinton or Bush are directly responsible, all played their part. Further, it would be monumentally fallacious to say Obama is the problem, even though as a member of the Senate, albeit for a short time, he does share some culpability.

Nor is any particular party to blame. The Republicans did not regulate the several industries at risk here enough, or should I say, provide enough oversight and the Democrats used several of these institutions as their private piggybanks fending off any level of scutiny.

What my rub here is Jeff, is now that the chickens have come home to roost, the Democrats (the vast majority of the voices calling for these blank checks are theirs Jeff, as much as you would like to spin it) are bailing out failed businesses left and right. The story I posted was about the leaders of both the House and Senate (both Dems and VERY liberal) wanting to bail out the automotive industry. An industry that the Democrats, along with their friends in the environmental movement and the unions, have crippled from day one.

So my firm position is let these businesses fail because:

A. We do not have the money to do so.
B. Giving money to a failing business will just mean it will fail later.
C. Government ownership of the means of production is a sure way to make it less efficient and manageable.
D. Government should have a MINIMAL role in the economy because they have proven time and time again that they cannot and do not understand it.

Sure you can call my "chicken little" Jeff, but I don't believe that this level of government intervention/interference will lead to prosperity. Time will tell.

[DavidofColorado]

I believe you misinterpret my incoherent ramblings sir.

We are where we are due to several, complex factors and the players in this tragedy span the political spectrum. It would be unfair to say that Carter, Reagan, HW Bush, Clinton or Bush are directly responsible, all played their part. Further, it would be monumentally fallacious to say Obama is the problem, even though as a member of the Senate, albeit for a short time, he does share some culpability.

Nor is any particular party to blame. The Republicans did not regulate the several industries at risk here enough, or should I say, provide enough oversight and the Democrats used several of these institutions as their private piggybanks fending off any level of scutiny.

What my rub here is Jeff, is now that the chickens have come home to roost, the Democrats (the vast majority of the voices calling for these blank checks are theirs Jeff, as much as you would like to spin it) are bailing out failed businesses left and right. The story I posted was about the leaders of both the House and Senate (both Dems and VERY liberal) wanting to bail out the automotive industry. An industry that the Democrats, along with their friends in the environmental movement and the unions, have crippled from day one.

So my firm position is let these businesses fail because:

A. We do not have the money to do so.
B. Giving money to a failing business will just mean it will fail later.
C. Government ownership of the means of production is a sure way to make it less efficient and manageable.
D. Government should have a MINIMAL role in the economy because they have proven time and time again that they cannot and do not understand it.

Sure you can call my "chicken little" Jeff, but I don't believe that this level of government intervention/interference will lead to prosperity. Time will tell.
+1
If the Government gets their stinking paws into the automotive management industry its going to be all kinds of fucked up.

[Sortarican]

ISo my firm position is let these businesses fail because:

A. We do not have the money to do so.
B. Giving money to a failing business will just mean it will fail later.
C. Government ownership of the means of production is a sure way to make it less efficient and manageable.
D. Government should have a MINIMAL role in the economy because they have proven time and time again that they cannot and do not understand it..

A. But we have the money to bail out the financial institutions so that people making 100's of thousands a year don't loose their jobs.
2. It worked for Chrysler in the 70's.
And. I advocate (partial) govt. ownership just as it relates to seats on the board of companies taking bailout funds so that they can try to avoid the AIG junket crap that we're seeing from the financial bailout.
III. Yeah, well that ones hard to argue. Though there has to be some kind of oversight. Deregulation is one of the main causes of the current problems.
*. One estimate is that 3 million jobs are at risk by an automotive failure.
The finacial bailout is saving a lesser number (directly) of jobs.
Also, the govt. has almost always been the lender and insurer of last resort for the Financials so they've constantly suckled at the federal teet.



+1 ....

SHUT UP DAVID!
The grown-ups are trying to talk.:lol:

[DavidofColorado]

SHUT UP DAVID!
The grown-ups are trying to talk.:lol:
No! You shut up.:)

[Nick_Ninja]

No! You shut up.:)


Why don't you take your ball and go home?

[Sortarican]

No! You shut up.:)

I wasn't shut up, I was brought up,
just like you..... except without the carny folk for parents!


Why don't you take your ball and go home?

Yeah!
Crybaby gonna cry?....Huh, you gonna cry?!?!?!
Come on, squirt a tear punk!
http://www.adamdodge.com/blog/wp-content/fotolia_4506964_xs-150x150.jpg

[DavidofColorado]

Why don't you take your ball and go home?
When you get some balls of your own I will.

I was just stating my opinion in a way that you hippies understand (simple). I didn't want to get into all the reasons that I think the governement owning a share in the auto industry is a bad idea because it hasn't worked in the past and they will just force all kinds of crazy ideas on the product and it will turn into a welfare industry since nobody will buy a electric truck to tow a boat when it can't even pull its own weight. But I was watching something on PBS about nudgeing people away from vehicles they want into vehicles they should have. Either thru taxing the shit out of cars and trucks that don't get a certain gas milage, to making gas to expensive to drive cars like that (sound familar) all for the environment, too. But I guess controlling the auto industry is just one leg of their agenda.

I would like to see some fat getting cut from the industry with low cost loans in case they need capital. But I may be just wishfully thinking again.

[Sortarican]

I was just stating my opinion in a way that you hippies understand (simple). ...

And I was just yankin your chain man. :)

[DavidofColorado]

And I was just yankin your chain man. :)
I was too. I really wasn't going to tell your mom on you.:alien:

How did you know my Parents were carnies and I grew up on the end of a chain? Are you a witch?

[DavidofColorado]

Being antagonistic today, huh?

With all the other auto making companies ready to pounce on the auto market. It might not be a good time to make the auto industry like the one they had in Russia. When was the last time anyone wanted one of those cars? I wouldn't drive one of their sedans if it was named the AK-47 SUV with a free AK rack on the roof full of AK's.

IMHO don't think I am quoteing facts or educated guesses here. I'm just trying to rant a little here. I just want to be cool like you guys don't bust my chops today plz.

[dirkterrell]

A. But we have the money to bail out the financial institutions so that people making 100's of thousands a year don't loose their jobs.


Any chance that many of those workers and their unions had any negative effect on the profitability of their employers? When GM pays more per car for employee health care costs than steel, something is screwed up. I'm not saying that the unions are the cause of the big problems that the industry is facing but they certainly play a significant role in them. They will also have to play a big role in the solution.



2. It worked for Chrysler in the 70's.


And here they are again. We have developed a perverse fear of failure in this country but it is a natural consequence of the exploration for success. Unions have gotten higher wages for their members but it has come at a competitive cost. It worked for a while until there was real competition in the market from the Japanese manufacturers and now the US companies are getting their asses handed to them. If we keep bailing them out and letting them play the same game, we are at best just delaying the inevitable. I say let them (manufacturers and unions) deal with the problems. They will probably have to scale back considerably until they can build competitive vehicles again. It will hurt, but both will learn the lesson that their respective goals must be driven by the desire to build the best vehicles at the lowest cost.

Dirk

[Sortarican]

Any chance that many of those workers and their unions had any negative effect on the profitability of their employers? ..... I'm not saying that the unions are the cause of the big problems ..... They will also have to play a big role in the solution.
Dirk

(I know it's bad debating etiquette 101, answering a question with a question, but what the hell.)
Any chance that the robber baron profits of the financial industry had anything to do with their sectors issues?

And yes, the union overhead has played a great part in costs of the Big 3.
The main reason Toyota doesn't buy GM is because they don't want to inherit the pension responsabilities GM has.
But they are still able to put out vehicles at similar or lower price points than foreign manufacturers.
And it wasn't the Unions that have designed an inferior product, they're just assembling them.
That honor belonds to management, development, and design teams.

The only way the big 3 can stay in business now, and my administrations solution to the problem
(if you can call a dictatorship an administration) is simple:
1) 100 Billion in prefered stock loans from the Fed. to stablize their debt.
2) Wage cuts to domestic manufacturing equivelent wages (which is only about 7%) and 40% restructuring of pension funds into company stock to finance modernization.
3) All new workers will be given matching 401K plans instead of pensions, but those that contracted to earlier agreements will only have to take the 40% conversion.

Done!
Next problem I can solve for America?

Quickly...Quickly...I have things to do!
What with Shea's reeducation-party indoctination and Dave's execution by firing squad and all.

I'm Jeff Silva...and I approved this message.
ALL HAIL SORTARICO!!!!!
(aka: Amerika, not to be confused with Vancilvania aka: Canada)

[DavidofColorado]

If I had the choice of being in Jeffs future cheertatership or the gas chambers that he is already buying parts for I would do the latter.

[dirkterrell]

(I know it's bad debating etiquette 101, answering a question with a question, but what the hell.)
Any chance that the robber baron profits of the financial industry had anything to do with their sectors issues?


I'm sure it does, as I have voiced in this thread, I believe. I'm no more for bailing those fuckers out than I am the auto industry. You compete and if you succeed you get rich. If you fail, you fail. Don't expect everyone else to bail you out. Knowing that failure means your company might go under, management, workers and all involved will be forced to make decisions that ensure a healthy company rather than feed their own greed.



And yes, the union overhead has played a great part in costs of the Big 3.
The main reason Toyota doesn't buy GM is because they don't want to inherit the pension responsabilities GM has.
But they are still able to put out vehicles at similar or lower price points than foreign manufacturers.
And it wasn't the Unions that have designed an inferior product, they're just assembling them.
That honor belongs to management, development, and design teams.


If you have to compete with a company whose labor costs are lower, you will have to make it up somewhere. You will have to either make a similar vehicle at a higher price or you will have to make a cheaper vehicle to match your competitor's price. Or, unions and manufacturers can recognize how a competitive market works and develop a plan that enables them to build a superior vehicle at a lower cost than the competition, realizing that their individual successes are inextricably intertwined.

Dirk

[Sortarican]

If you have to compete with a company whose labor costs are lower, you will have to make it up somewhere....

I saw that slight flaw in that portion of my arguement while typing it.
But decided to let it fly knowing the usual idoits around here wouldn't catch it.
Damn you and your big brain Dirk! :banghead:

Though current Japanese and German labor costs are about the same as the UAW, the UAW have better benifits.(translating into higher overall labor costs.)
Also manufacturing in the US has a higher cost associated with it.
(More EPA regs, less govt. tax breaks, no Japanese style Keiretsu, etc.)

[Captain Obvious]

Really, some of you want the Fed Govt to take over the auto industries?

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060426/060426_FEMA_hmed_10p.h2.jpg

I am from the govt, I am here to help.




The real issue with American auto manufactures is in addition to being perceived as having a lower product quality, studies show they have more issues per vehicle.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13186768/

Perhaps if the Big 3 could have been more forward looking as well as updated their business models as time moved forward, they might not be in as much trouble as they are now.

Ford freaking relied on the F150 to carry them for how many decades? ANd went gas prices went up, their #1 vehicle's sales fell. With better options for a similar amount of money, consumers could purchased a vehicle from a "FURRIN" auto company. Ford's current issue is a complete bed of thier own making. Gas prices skyrocketing has happened before, but apparently Ford didn't learn. Now they should pay.

I am not opposed to the bailout cause it is a necessary evil, but the companies should have to change thier business plan.

[Shea]

A. But we have the money to bail out the financial institutions so that people making 100's of thousands a year don't loose their jobs.

No, we don't. All that magical 700 billion will be borrowed and interest paid (to the tune of about 1.4 TRILLION over 30 years @ 4%). You know I was not in favor of that bailout either Jeff, so quite using it as stare decisis



2. It worked for Chrysler in the 70's.
Then we shall blame you for their problems and send you the bill :)



And. I advocate (partial) govt. ownership just as it relates to seats on the board of companies taking bailout funds so that they can try to avoid the AIG junket crap that we're seeing from the financial bailout.
While I see your reasoning behind this (making sure our money doesn't go to waste), do you honestly believe that the government officials are not going to take those same junkets? They do now.



III. Yeah, well that ones hard to argue. Though there has to be some kind of oversight. Deregulation is one of the main causes of the current problems.
*. One estimate is that 3 million jobs are at risk by an automotive failure.
The finacial bailout is saving a lesser number (directly) of jobs.
Also, the govt. has almost always been the lender and insurer of last resort for the Financials so they've constantly suckled at the federal teet.


I think it's a fallacy to believe that the jobs will simply disappear if there isn't a bailout. It's the same tactic used to shove the previous one down our throats. Let them file Chapter 11, and while under that protection, reorganize, consolidate debt, renegotiate labor contracts and trim the fat. Once they do that they can reemerge a stronger, leaner company.

The "financials" need to stop buying off politicians and learn to sink or swim like the rest of us. Corporations and organizations should be banned from giving campaign funds (or in-kind contributions). You want to clean up the system, start there.

[King Nothing]

Interesting note, today I heard that is cost the Big 3 something like $73 and hour per employee because of the unions and contracts that were written up in the 50's. Toyota on the other hand spends only $43 per hour per employee. That difference adds up fast. From my point of view, I see the auto employee unions as a parasite that will eventually destroy its host.

[Canuck]

Your just jellousy of the unions Doug. :doublefinger:

[King Nothing]

Your just jellousy of the unions Doug. :doublefinger:You still have poor grammar skills. :siesta:

[#1Townie]

So you're siding with the Rebumblicans who basically say:
"Bail out us yuppies who bought 500K houses and the Financial institutions, but fuck Detroit.....I drive a Lexus"?



No.
But I'd be more than happy to stuff you in the trunk, drive you across the boarder,
and leave you naked on the side of the road to Jarez if you'd like.

I know, what can I say? I'm a giver.

i know its a few pages back i had to touch on this a little..

i repo more american made cars then inported.. so it is the one buying from detroit that dont pay their bills... but im hoping obama raises taxes.. i want to repo some lambos..