Students file complaint against CU for campus gun ban

[DavidofColorado]

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, along with Mountain States Legal Foundation, has filed a complaint against Colorado University (including all of their campuses), claiming their campus ban on the carrying on concealed firearms for students, faculty and visitors is not legal and is dangerous to those who carry for self defense.


Link To the Complaint (http://www.rmgo.org/images/SCCC%20Complaint_Final.pdf)


Link to the background (http://www.rmgo.org/images/SCCC%20Lit%20Backgrounder.pdf)

[McVaaahhh]

I don't enjoy infringing on anybody's rights, but I'm thinking that the fewer guns on a college campus the better.

Really, 18-22 yr-olds do NOT need to be carrying guns to class/bars/frat parties

[Canuck]

I don't enjoy infringing on anybody's rights, but I'm thinking that the fewer guns on a college campus the better.

Really, 18-22 yr-olds do NOT need to be carrying guns to class/bars/frat parties

I agree. But what about the 32yo student, like myself. ;-)

[PROFLYER]

Really, 18-22 yr-olds do NOT need to be carrying guns to class/bars/frat parties

This sort of ignorant thinking allows things like Virginia Tech to happen. Maybe you were a dumb ass frat 18-22 year old but that doesn't mean we all were. Also, you can't get one until you're 21. I have carried since I was 21 and have NEVER had any issues, EVER. I have friends who carry as well who also have NEVER had an issue. I dated girls whos fathers I shot with and they always told me that if anything were ever to "go down" they would hope their daughter was in my class. Also, you can't carry in a bar and be drunk. I know plenty of people who have no business carrying, and these are the people who won't do what it takes to get a permit anyway, so don't worry about it. Those of us who do know what it takes also understand the liability involved.


This ban is bullshit and CU is going to have to eat their words. I can carry at CSU and the sheriff has noted a few times that "CSU will never be a Virginia Tech." In case you failed to notice 1) criminals don't follow the law and 2) Since they don't, they'll take a gun (or a small arsenal) into a place where they KNOW they'll be unopposed. Now how much sense does that make??

[Devaclis]

Wow, I am really torn on this one.

Is it a government building? Campus? Can you carry on any government campus or in any government building? Has the ability to carry at this school ever been an issue? If not, then why the change? Pro-active fear mongering is still fear mongering.

What if one of them shoots us?

What if someone gets ahold of their gun and goes nuts?

Well.....

What if someone chokes to death on the dime bag you just sold them?

What if a new student, who is allergic to patchouli, dies in your dorm room?

What if you get strangled with a flannel shirt?

Man, I think we should outlaw everything, make you stay in your green home with your hypoallergenic furniture and your monitored internet/tv and just let everyone else but YOU decide what is safe for YOU. That make you feel all good and fuzzy?

[puckstr]

http://www.rmgo.org/images/gun-free-zone-cLR.jpg

[McVaaahhh]

And insulting me is supposed to accomplish what exactly?

I know plenty of people that carry and I have no problem with CCW or the 2nd ammendment or guns in general. I just think it's a bad idea to have guns on a college campus.

I went to CSU myself and IMHO the college campus is just not the right atmosphere for guns. Yes, there are college students that could handle it just fine, but I believe that the majority of them could not. These are the same kids who ride around with their helmet strapped to the side of their bike, and do keg stands. You really want them carrying?

Saying that allowing guns on campus would prevent another VT incident is just another 20/20 hindsight argument. Requiring body armor for all students would have prevented it as well...



This sort of ignorant thinking allows things like Virginia Tech to happen. Maybe you were a dumb ass frat 18-22 year old but that doesn't mean we all were. Also, you can't get one until you're 21. I have carried since I was 21 and have NEVER had any issues, EVER. I have friends who carry as well who also have NEVER had an issue. I dated girls whos fathers I shot with and they always told me that if anything were ever to "go down" they would hope their daughter was in my class. Also, you can't carry in a bar and be drunk. I know plenty of people who have no business carrying, and these are the people who won't do what it takes to get a permit anyway, so don't worry about it. Those of us who do know what it takes also understand the liability involved.


This ban is bullshit and CU is going to have to eat their words. I can carry at CSU and the sheriff has noted a few times that "CSU will never be a Virginia Tech." In case you failed to notice 1) criminals don't follow the law and 2) Since they don't, they'll take a gun (or a small arsenal) into a place where they KNOW they'll be unopposed. Now how much sense does that make??

[McVaaahhh]

I agree. But what about the 32yo student, like myself. ;-)

Your Canadian, so the only danger with you carrying would be you shooting yourself in the foot. :lol:

[DavidofColorado]

I look at it as a legal issue that needs to be resolved. If you ignore all the fear mongering and evil stigmas that you have been force fed about guns and just look at it as a right not being recognized it makes it a no brainer.

Its just a stubborn administrator that has a little bit of power and is used to getting their way. Think about it like segregation in the schools in the south. They need to keep an open mind.

[Nick_Ninja]

I work at CU and I'm here to tell you that the general student population here shouldn't be allowed to carry water pistols yet alone real firearms. These kids are supposed to be our front-line to compete with the Chinese and Indians? I don't think they could pass the test with the help of Sylvan Learning Centers.

[McVaaahhh]

:imwithstupid:

[Pandora-11]

I have a 19 year freshman on the CU campus (although she lives in a condo off campus). I do not want the general population carrying weapons. They are not ready for this kind of action. Immaturity and drunken parties is a recipe for disaster!
I want the police and security to protect the students, not other students.

[rforsythe]

Completely taking the "rights" issue out of it for a moment, my general feeling is that most young college students are impulsive, stupid creatures. I think the chances of something bad happening increase geometrically if a bunch of them show up armed, than if we just play the odds on the remote chance of a campus shooting and the time for law enforcement to respond.

[Pandora-11]

If students are allowed to carry weapons...I will pull my child out of there so
fast!!

[Devaclis]

Are people currently allowed to carry on campus?

Why are you guys sending your kids there? Oh no!! They could already be dead!!

Really, is it the guns you are afraid of or the impulsive/drunk/high/immature kids that are going to school with your kids? These kids, YOUR fucking kids, could just as easily kill others with a car, am overdose of drugs/alcohol, auto-erotic asphyxiation gone wrong, whatever. Guns are not going to kill students. Your retarded kids are gonna kill students.

[TFOGGuys]

Right now the issue is not just that allegedly young and immature students can't carry. NOONE is allowed to carry on campus, unless they are specifically authorized. This means that my wife can't carry a pistol for self defense, because she works on campus. The permits for CCW are not available to those under the age of 21 anyhow. But as it currently stands, the only people being barred from carrying on campus are those that are law abiding in the first place. Having seen the caliber of the Kampus Kops at Fitzsimmons, let's just say I have a lot more faith in the ability of my wife to defend herself than for them to do so. After all, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

[Pandora-11]

Are people currently allowed to carry on campus?

Why are you guys sending your kids there? Oh no!! They could already be dead!!

Really, is it the guns you are afraid of or the impulsive/drunk/high/immature kids that are going to school with your kids? These kids, YOUR fucking kids, could just as easily kill others with a car, am overdose of drugs/alcohol, auto-erotic asphyxiation gone wrong, whatever. Guns are not going to kill students. Your retarded kids are gonna kill students.


YOu obviously don't have a teenager....and some of the kids aren't retarded. Mine of course...:) She's a beautiful, smart, and mature student just looking for a her education. She doesn't doesn't need to be worrying abut who in his drunken state is going to pull a gun on her. The rest?......she can take down.

[puckstr]

Most kids ARE RETARDED

[Foolds]

I went to UNC they had the Illegal gun ban also, So I carried every day to class after I received my permit. Nobody knew. If I was caught I could be booted from school, but legally they couldn't stop me from carrying. But I didn't carry my gun to parties, or bars. To this day if I drink, the gun is in the safe. Most people who have permits are responsible persons of upstanding nature. Its not cheap in a college students budgets to get a permit, nor is it easy for a lazy person it takes effort.

As others have said, blocking guns only makes a criminal safe zone. If you are going to rob/Kill others you are already committing a crime who cares about a gun violation.

[Devaclis]

YOu obviously don't have a teenager....and some of the kids aren't retarded. Mine of course...:) She's a beautiful, smart, and mature student just looking for a her education. She doesn't doesn't need to be worrying abut who in his drunken state is going to pull a gun on her. The rest?......she can take down.

I have 2 kids that were moved from Florida to NY because of the violence in their schools. I have a sister who is now an adult but was at a school in Florida that was part of a violent shooting. I was witness to a disgruntled student killing another with a sawed off shotgun on the final day of school when I was younger. Don't assume I am as blind to what goes on at schools as you think I am. Have you ever seen this stuff first hand?

And of course your kids are smart, mature, and non-violent. ALL kids are, right? No parent thinks their kids are capable of anything but shitting roses and promoting world peace. All of your kids are perfect. Which is why this has never been an issue. /sarcasm

YOU, and I, have every right to NOT want guns in schools, or to WANT them there. That is why I love this country. I just do not think it needs to be a LAW. Want a kid to get a great education at a school that does not allow guns? Then find a school that will offer just that.

[Devaclis]

One other thing:

If you have a CCW and can legally carry a gun on campus, you are TRAINED and CERTIED to carry that weapon. You are not you average dumbass carrying around a weapon. You are a CERTIFIED and TRAINED dumbass :)

[Nick_Ninja]

Here is the official campus position on firearms:

https://www.cu.edu/regents/Policies/Policy14I.htm

[DavidofColorado]

I think that if you have a lingering worry about trusting your kids around firearms you should do what you did when they started driving. Teach them a thing or 2 about safety and if you don't know then take them to a class. Knowledge about it is safer than ignorance. (the movie cast-away should have schooled you on that)

Pull your kids out if you are scared and years down the road you can look back and say that you were wrong for holding your kid back from school you shouldn't let them take online courses either because a predator might get to them while in a chat room.
But at some point you might want them to move out and you will know that its time to let them go back to school, because all the fear about guns on campus being misused was deterred by all the lawfully armed students who never misused them.

If your kids are not responsible enough to have a gun then don't buy them one. Tell them that they will have to buy it themselves and pay for the CCW on their own. In most cases that will end it right there. If they are to irresponsible to do it on their own then they will loose interest and forget about it.

If the choice between a freedom that I choose to use or a rule that someone else chooses from me based on nothing but their own insecurities comes up I choose the freedom.

[PROFLYER]

And insulting me is supposed to accomplish what exactly?

I know plenty of people that carry and I have no problem with CCW or the 2nd ammendment or guns in general. I just think it's a bad idea to have guns on a college campus.

I went to CSU myself and IMHO the college campus is just not the right atmosphere for guns. Yes, there are college students that could handle it just fine, but I believe that the majority of them could not. These are the same kids who ride around with their helmet strapped to the side of their bike, and do keg stands. You really want them carrying?

Saying that allowing guns on campus would prevent another VT incident is just another 20/20 hindsight argument. Requiring body armor for all students would have prevented it as well...

Speaking to the ignorance of your first post wasn't meant to be an insult, but how you feel is your problem.

Have your opinions, you're entitled to that, but carry states and places that allow permit holders to carry are safer places. When was the last time you saw a gun shop robbed? If 7-eleven allowed each clerk to carry in its stores armed robbers would skip them over and try the kum and go instead. Kids doing keg stands are not the type to make it through all the stuff it takes to carry, so worry not.

The point is, allowing law abiding citizens who have taken all the necessary steps to legally cary is a win for all involved. It creates safer establishments and I challenge you to find ONE case where someone who could legally carry went on a rampage. However, you can find MANY cases where someone who can legally carry stopped what could have been much worse. Think back to the church in the Springs last year, imagine if the lady hadn't shot that guy and he had made his way into the church where there were hundreds of people gathered....with 15 mags and an assault rifle. Does that mean we should ban assault rifles? Hardly, but it does prove that legal carry is the answer as we will never know how many people could have died.

[Sortarican]

... Think back to the church in the Springs last year, imagine if the lady hadn't shot that guy ..., but it does prove that legal carry is the answer as we will never know how many people could have died.

Not really a good example for your argument.
She was a member of the church's security staff. Not an average Joe with a CCW permit.
I don't think most people have a problem with having armed security on campus.

[puckstr]

Not really a good example for your argument.
She was a member of the church's security staff. Not an average Joe with a CCW permit.
I don't think most people have a problem with having armed security on campus.


The church had a security staff? WTF?
Guess God had the day off. AGAIN

[DavidofColorado]

Not really a good example for your argument.
She was a member of the church's security staff. Not an average Joe with a CCW permit.
I don't think most people have a problem with having armed security on campus.

Security in a church? Are you sure about that one Jeff?

[puckstr]

A church with a "security staff" is sure to get more offerings!!!

[TFOGGuys]

Here is the official campus position on firearms:

https://www.cu.edu/regents/Policies/Policy14I.htm

Looks like it's time to confiscate lacrosse sticks and baseball bats...

[Sortarican]

Security in a church? Are you sure about that one Jeff?

Chief Richard Myers called the Colorado Springs church security staffer "a courageous security staff member who probably saved many lives."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/09/church.shooting/index.html

[Nick_Ninja]

Looks like it's time to confiscate lacrosse sticks and baseball bats...

And add the knives in the dining halls to the list.

[TFOGGuys]

Not really a good example for your argument.
She was a member of the church's security staff. Not an average Joe with a CCW permit.
I don't think most people have a problem with having armed security on campus.

She was plain clothes, carrying concealed (with permit). They church preferred it that way so as to prevent the "armed camp" atmosphere. If concealed carry were not legal, they either would have not had security, or they would have made their congregation members uncomfortable with armed security guards carrying openly.

[TFOGGuys]

A church with a "security staff" is sure to get more offerings!!!
If money is the root of all evil, why are churches always asking for it?

[MetaLord 9]

It was said earlier: people that are going to committ crimes will do so regardless of laws & restrictions.

The concern is that the presence of a gun allows a situation to escalate very quickly. Vigilantyism is also a concern. The level of responsibility that college kids exhibit, at large, does not seem to merit their possessing a CCW permit.

However, there are exceptions to the rule. The process that someone has to go through to posess a CCW permit is, I'm sure, extensive and not something that the average drunken frat kid is likely to do in a weekend to avoid a term paper. A firearm is not cheap and neither is the CCW permit. Part of maturing is understanding and accepting responsibility. Owning a firearm and being able to conceal it is truely a weighty responsibility, but not so much that our university students cannot handle it. Any fool that would take a weapon into his/her own hands and use it frivolously is just as likely to find something equally as destructive and put it to poor use, a car for instance.

Do the weapons really have a place on a college campus? No.

Should someone be banned & prosecuted for posessing an otherwise legal weapon on a college campus? Of course not.

The asterisk to this whole conversation, however, is that the university is an entity unto itself and, thus, perfectly allowed to choose to whom they will or will not offer admission or continuation of college credit.

[MetaLord 9]

If money is the root of all evil, why are churches always asking for it?
Trying to uproot sin?

Trying to cut the devil off at his roots?

[puckstr]

If money is the root of all evil, then feel free to give it to ME.

[Devaclis]

Money is not the rrot of all evil, man is. That is why he invented god.

[Pandora-11]

All churches have individuals whose duty is to protect the worshipers from harm. While they may not be trained police or carry weapons as in smaller churches, ushers are trained to deal with disruptions in a basic way. In the larger churches, they often use off-duty officers for pay or for volunteer as their commitments to their churches.
I go to First Pres of CS. It is a very large church and security is lowkey but present. Some of the security is for the health issues of the elderly or to help the homeless that wander in for breakfast. This is a necessary part of the service in these days and times.
As far as churches asking for money....duh, how do you suppose the mortgage and salaries of these people happen?

I have three nieces and nephews at UF where firearms issues have occurred. You don't give kids more to carry than they are capable of carrying.....and as someone who is around teens everyday, believe me when I say Ninja is right on this one...they don't even need water pistols.

[puckstr]

Money is not the rrot of all evil, man is. That is why he invented god.


TRUE Brother...can I get a witness


Plus give me that EVIL money

[puckstr]

All churches have individuals whose duty is to protect the worshipers from harm. While they may not be trained police or carry weapons as in smaller churches, ushers are trained to deal with disruptions in a basic way. In the larger churches, they often use off-duty officers for pay or for volunteer as their commitments to their churches.
I go to First Pres of CS. It is a very large church and security is lowkey but present. Some of the security is for the health issues of the elderly or to help the homeless that wander in for breakfast. This is a necessary part of the service in these days and times.
As far as churches asking for money....duh, how do you suppose the mortgage and salaries of these people happen?

I have three nieces and nephews at UF where firearms issues have occurred. You don't give kids more to carry than they are capable of carrying.....and as someone who is around teens everyday, believe me when I say Ninja is right on this one...they don't even need water pistols.


But who will protect the children from the PRIESTS??? :hump:

[Pandora-11]

But who will protect the children from the PRIESTS??? :hump:

A valid question....but minor in the scheme of the larger question of safety. You are truly safe no where....part of living...and unfortunately dying.

[puckstr]

Not minor to the kids that get touched in there naughty places, by men of the cloth.

More kids have been violated by clergy than people being shot in church. The real threat is the lecherous "holy" men.

[Kim-n-Dean]

If it's properly concealed, take it where ever you want!!

My wife can't even have her's in the car in the parking lot at her work, let alone up in her office. We look at it this way. If she has to use it in her office and gets fired, at least she's alive!! That's all we're worried about!!

Once again, if it's properly concealed, take it where ever you want!!

[Sortarican]

If concealed carry were not legal, they either would have not had security, or they would have made their congregation members uncomfortable with armed security guards carrying openly.

Not sure I'm catching your point.
Are you saying you think the the church would not have had armed security without the current relaxed CCW rules?

It used to be that a person had to show need to carry, now the permitting body has to show a reason why an applicant should not be granted a permit.
But someone working security (even volunteer security at a church) never had trouble showing cause for getting a permit.
And I'm not sure a CCW permit is even required to carry a concealed weapon in a private place.
That is if it's your place or if you're given permission by the company/institution/owner to do so.
Anyone know the laws on that?

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I work at CU and I'm here to tell you that the general student population here shouldn't be allowed to carry water pistols yet alone real firearms. These kids are supposed to be our front-line to compete with the Chinese and Indians? I don't think they could pass the test with the help of Sylvan Learning Centers.
C'mon Jeff, remember, it's Boulder. I mean, beside carrying water pistols, y'all shouldn't have been allowed to vote either......:)

[DavidofColorado]

Can't we just ban murder instead of banning the carrying of firearms for protection? That would seem like the better way to go?

[puckstr]

C'mon Jeff, remember, it's Boulder. I mean, beside carrying water BONGS, y'all shouldn't have been allowed to vote either......:)


Fixed it for ya

[puckstr]

Can't we just ban murder instead of banning the carrying of firearms for protection? That would seem like the better way to go?


It is against the law already, but that law dosen't seem to work either

[DavidofColorado]

It is against the law already, but that law dosen't seem to work either
But what if we make it really, really against the law. Like even make it punishable by death couldn't we do that instead of banning guns from the law abiding?

[Pandora-11]

Not minor to the kids that get touched in there naughty places, by men of the cloth.

More kids have been violated by clergy than people being shot in church. The real threat is the lecherous "holy" men.


I didn't say it was minor to the kids it happens to....I said it was minor in its occurrence. I've also had relatives molested in this way...and it's not minor...it just doesn't happen as often as one would think by church authority. It's just a larger violation when it happens by church authority.

[Foolds]

It was said earlier: people that are going to committ crimes will do so regardless of laws & restrictions.

The concern is that the presence of a gun allows a situation to escalate very quickly. Vigilantyism is also a concern. The level of responsibility that college kids exhibit, at large, does not seem to merit their possessing a CCW permit.

However, there are exceptions to the rule. The process that someone has to go through to posess a CCW permit is, I'm sure, extensive and not something that the average drunken frat kid is likely to do in a weekend to avoid a term paper. A firearm is not cheap and neither is the CCW permit. Part of maturing is understanding and accepting responsibility. Owning a firearm and being able to conceal it is truely a weighty responsibility, but not so much that our university students cannot handle it. Any fool that would take a weapon into his/her own hands and use it frivolously is just as likely to find something equally as destructive and put it to poor use, a car for instance.

Do the weapons really have a place on a college campus? No.

Should someone be banned & prosecuted for posessing an otherwise legal weapon on a college campus? Of course not.

The asterisk to this whole conversation, however, is that the university is an entity unto itself and, thus, perfectly allowed to choose to whom they will or will not offer admission or continuation of college credit.

Do legal trained and certified persons with weapons have a place on college campuses?

[puckstr]

Again..
More kids have been violated by clergy than people being shot in church.

[TFOGGuys]

Not sure I'm catching your point.
Are you saying you think the the church would not have had armed security without the current relaxed CCW rules?

It used to be that a person had to show need to carry, now the permitting body has to show a reason why an applicant should not be granted a permit.
But someone working security (even volunteer security at a church) never had trouble showing cause for getting a permit.
And I'm not sure a CCW permit is even required to carry a concealed weapon in a private place.
That is if it's your place or if you're given permission by the company/institution/owner to do so.
Anyone know the laws on that?

You are correct: No permit is required to carry in a place of business or the area under it's immediate control, with the permission of the business owner.

In some counties(Denver) prior to the current CCW law, permits were virtually impossible to obtain, armed security licenses were available for cause, but required open carry, and prohibited carry when not on duty.

[MetaLord 9]

Do legal trained and certified persons with weapons have a place on college campuses?
The people do. Independently, do the weapons? Nope. This being an imperfect world, should those who are legally trained & certified be allowed to have those weapons? Yep.

Separately,
Protecting our children is one thing, but at the age of 21, when do we go from "protecting our children from harm" to "protecting our citizens from themselves?" The question of whether or not an individual, regardless of age, is capable of exhibiting the responsibility, maturity, and self-restraint requried in owning a firearm and a CCW permit, is one that is determined by the CCW permit process. If we take issue with who has one, then we should look not to the organizations/entities banning the weapons alltogether, but, instead, at the process invovled in granting the legal permits to do carry those weapons.

[Devaclis]

Back at the debate at hand (Gun ban not religion)

[puckstr]

Debate guns not god....Guns are REAL


Are chain saws allowed on campus?

[Devaclis]

what about a potato "launcher"?

[Devaclis]

If they are gonna classify guns as objects that fire projectiles then my ass would get arrested the moment i walked on campus.

[DavidofColorado]

If they are gonna classify guns as objects that fire projectiles then my ass would get arrested the moment i walked on campus.

Ditto, my ass would get banned under the explosive device clause. I would have to have the bomb squad called out every time I farted.

[puckstr]

If they are gonna classify guns as objects that fire projectiles then my ass would get arrested the moment i walked on campus.


Biological weapon

[Foolds]

The people do. Independently, do the weapons? Nope. This being an imperfect world, should those who are legally trained & certified be allowed to have those weapons? Yep.

Separately,
Protecting our children is one thing, but at the age of 21, when do we go from "protecting our children from harm" to "protecting our citizens from themselves?" The question of whether or not an individual, regardless of age, is capable of exhibiting the responsibility, maturity, and self-restraint requried in owning a firearm and a CCW permit, is one that is determined by the CCW permit process. If we take issue with who has one, then we should look not to the organizations/entities banning the weapons alltogether, but, instead, at the process invovled in granting the legal permits to do carry those weapons.


So a Police officer has no place carrying a firearm on a college campus is what you are saying?

[MetaLord 9]

JJ, you can stop trying to put words in my mouth any day now! What I said was that independently (and ideally) guns don't really have a place/use on a college campus. It's not an ideal world, however, so should they be allowed to someone legally certified to have one? Yep.

To date, we've only been talking about students and non-law enforcement carrying firearms on a college campus. I find a law enforcement officer without a sidearm to be as effective as a dog with no teeth: all bark with little threat of bite.

[DavidofColorado]

JJ, you can stop trying to put words in my mouth any day now! What I said was that independently (and ideally) guns don't really have a place/use on a college campus. It's not an ideal world, however, so should they be allowed to someone legally certified to have one? Yep.

To date, we've only been talking about students and non-law enforcement carrying firearms on a college campus. I find a law enforcement officer without a sidearm to be as effective as a dog with no teeth: all bark with little threat of bite.

He was baiting you on that. I saw it. You walked right into it. But why do you think we need a double standard? Is it because you don't think the students could handle it? Or do you think that the police are going to be there every time? I would like know what you think?

[InlineSIX24]

I would be all for teachers and guards who had been through some training carrying. I'm torn on allowing the students based on some of the brain function voids going on there. To me it seems that depending on the police is not always realistic. Its like depending on the government to pay your bills. The cops will not always be able to get there in time to stop what could have been addressed by someone who was on-site.

[dirkterrell]

You are truly safe no where....part of living...and unfortunately dying.

Which is precisely why law abiding citizens should never be denied their right to self-defense.

Dirk

[puckstr]

I would be all for teachers and guards who had been through some training carrying. I'm torn on allowing the students based on some of the brain function voids going on there. To me it seems that depending on the police is not always realistic. Its like depending on the government to pay your bills. The cops will not always be able to get there in time to stop what could have been addressed by someone who was on-site.


Unless you get an over zealous teacher that busts a cap in your ass for using LINUX
:lol:

[MetaLord 9]

But why do you think we need a double standard? Is it because you don't think the students could handle it? Or do you think that the police are going to be there every time? I would like know what you think?
It's not "walking right into it" because it's not a double standard. Law enforcement officers should absolutely be allowed to carry a firearm as they are allowed privileges outside the normal requirements for everyday citizens in order to neutralize those who choose to stray outside the aforementioned boundaries.

Concerning whether or not I think students are capable of exhibiting the neccessary maturity & restraint to hold a CCW permit, I refer you to my earlier posts which state that it's the responsibility of the CCW permit process to ensure that, not me.

You see to be misreading or half-reading my posts here. I am advocating being able to carry your firearm on a college campus, should you be a licesensed firearm owner with a valid CCW permit. Perhaps where you're misunderstanding me is where I mention that, in a perfect world, would there ever be a use or necessity of a firearm on a college campus? Of course not! Is this a perfect world? Of couse not! Therefore, you should be able to follow my statements to the conclusion that legally carrying a concealed firearm should be allowed. Your inability to grant the premise of "in a perfect world" seems to be what's holding back your understanding of my point.

Addressing your last point, and acknowledging that this is indeed NOT a perfect world, do I think that a law enforcement officer will always be available to step in and rescue the situation from ruin? Absolutely not. In situations of desparation, I would be greatful to either have a firearm at my disposal or the disposal of someone else in the room who is proficient in its operation. Does the danger of doling out a 1000 dollar punishment for a 5 buck crime exist when a firearm is present (on either side of the situation)? Yes. Is it likely, providing that the firearm's operator is trained/licesensed, and using it to ensure the saftey of others? No it's not likely to happen.

[Pandora-11]

Debate guns not god....Guns are REAL


Are chain saws allowed on campus?


This is hugely offensive! Might you add IMHO.

[Nick_Ninja]

C'mon Jeff, remember, it's Boulder. I mean, beside carrying water pistols, y'all shouldn't have been allowed to vote either......:)

Don't get all jealousy about the fact that I am a member of the winning team ------ and can kick yo ass at foosball ------ with one hand on the bong :D

[Pandora-11]

Which is precisely why law abiding citizens should never be denied their right to self-defense.

Dirk


Exactly..and I would agree with you, but not in the hands of babes. They aren't any more able to handle this than a 5 year old. Is Metalord the only one here who makes any sense on this issue?

[MetaLord 9]

Exactly..and I would agree with you, but not in the hands of babes. They aren't any more able to handle this than a 5 year old. Is Metalord the only one here who makes any sense on this issue?
...you do realize that I'm advocating that the guns be allowed on campus if the student has a CCW permit, right?

[puckstr]

This is hugely offensive! Might you add IMHO.


Yes chain saws are offensive

[Pandora-11]

...you do realize that I'm advocating that the guns be allowed on campus if the student has a CCW permit, right?

I'm running back and forth on my laptop...so...nope, missed that part.
Thought you were advocating college students were too young.
Back to rereading I guess.
My bad.

Ok...you don't have any sense on this either.:)

[MetaLord 9]

You've gotta realize that the only god Steve believes in is bacon.

[dirkterrell]

Exactly..and I would agree with you, but not in the hands of babes. They aren't any more able to handle this than a 5 year old. Is Metalord the only one here who makes any sense on this issue?

21 year olds are not "babes." They are adults and should not have their rights violated because others might break the law.

Dirk

[McVaaahhh]

Speaking to the ignorance of your first post wasn't meant to be an insult, but how you feel is your problem.


Saying out loud that my opinion on a subject is a demonstration of ignorance is insulting.



...Carry states and places that allow permit holders to carry are safer places.

Says who? Point me to a study that says that Colorado is a safer state to live in BECAUSE you can get a ccw permit.




When was the last time you saw a gun shop robbed? If 7-eleven allowed each clerk to carry in its stores armed robbers would skip them over and try the kum and go instead.

I've seen plenty of video and read stories of convenience stores being robbed even with a gun within easy reach. The gun is only effective if you've got time to pull it.




Kids doing keg stands are not the type to make it through all the stuff it takes to carry, so worry not.

So what you're saying is that EVERYONE that gets a CCW permit is an angel and would NEVER EVER pull that gun at an inappropriate time? If you really believe that, than you're pointing the ignorant finger at the wrong person.

Maybe this was inappropriate:
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/262399.php

Another brain surgeon with a ccw

http://www.ohiovalleypolitics.com/2007/12/12/the-dangers-of-concealed-carry-permits/

Man arrested on drug charges with a CCW
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/orlando-fl/TNM6MJ2OR4BNAE0KJ




The point is, allowing law abiding citizens who have taken all the necessary steps to legally cary is a win for all involved. It creates safer establishments and I challenge you to find ONE case where someone who could legally carry went on a rampage. However, you can find MANY cases where someone who can legally carry stopped what could have been much worse.

I am NOT debating CCW at all. It is simply my opinion that college students should not have guns in school classrooms. By your logic we should allow high school students to carry guns. Shit, that might have stopped Columbine. How about the elementary school students that went on a rampage. Maybe we should allow 3rd graders to carry?

I believe that guns (concealed or otherwise) have no business being carried by students in any school.



...Think back to the church in the Springs last year, imagine if the lady hadn't shot that guy and he had made his way into the church where there were hundreds of people gathered....with 15 mags and an assault rifle. Does that mean we should ban assault rifles? Hardly, but it does prove that legal carry is the answer as we will never know how many people could have died.

No, armed security guards were the answer in that case. Don't ever call me ignorant.

[puckstr]

You've gotta realize that the only god Steve believes in is bacon.

Bacon
Beer
Boobs
Bikes
and guns..... BTW they are real and I can touch them

[MetaLord 9]

Pandora, here's the point I was making earlier:

The process that someone has to go through to posess a CCW permit is, I'm sure, extensive and not something that the average drunken frat kid is likely to do in a weekend to avoid a term paper. A firearm is not cheap and neither is the CCW permit. Part of maturing is understanding and accepting responsibility. Owning a firearm and being able to conceal it is truely a weighty responsibility, but not so much that our university students cannot handle it.

...

Should someone be banned & prosecuted for posessing an otherwise legal weapon on a college campus? Of course not.

[TFOGGuys]

I'm not advocating that every student be allowed to carry, I'm just of the opinion that persons that have already undertaken the training and qualifications to exercise their effective right to self defense should be allowed to do so without arbitrary regulations imposed by the university. University policy is based on a formal opinion by one Ken Salazar that his interpretation of the law allowed them to regulate the possession of weapons, even though the Supreme Court had already ruled that state law concerning the issuance and validity of CCW permits superceded city and county ordinances. To wit: A CCW permit issued by any county is valid in all areas of the state, except as specifically prohibited by state or Federal law.

[Pandora-11]

21 year olds are not "babes." They are adults and should not have their rights violated because others might break the law.

Dirk

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.

[Sortarican]

Yes chain saws are offensive

So is Chris. But they still let him on a college campus.
(All be it Ohio State, which barely qualifies as an institution of higher learning.)

[puckstr]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.


If the firearms are properly CONCEALED you will never know they are there.:devil1:

[TFOGGuys]

Says who? Point me to a study that says that Colorado is a safer state to live in BECAUSE you can get a ccw permit.

Fact: When citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons:
• Murder rates drop 8%
• Rape rates fall 5%
• Aggravated assaults drop 7%
Fact: More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws
Fact: States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national
averages.
Fact: Deaths and injuries from mass
public shootings fall dramatically after
right-to-carry concealed handgun laws
are enacted. Between 1977 and 1995, the
average death rate from mass shootings
plummeted by up to 91% after such laws
went into effect, and injuries dropped by
over 80%.
Myth: People with concealed weapons permits will commit
crimes
Fact: The results for the first
30 states that passed “shallissue”
laws for concealed carry
permits are similar. Here are
some specific cases:
Fact: People with concealed
carry permits are:
• 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
• 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public
Fact: In Texas, citizens with concealed carry permits are 14 times less likely to commit a crime.
They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime.

source:http://rmgo.org/images/GunFacts4-2-Press.pdf

all sources are annotated within the page, most are FBI or similar

[MetaLord 9]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.

Again, if you don't like the people who have a CCW permit, don't go after them, or even after the entity that's infringing on their rights! Go after the process that allowed them to have it in the first place! Don't think college kids should have a CCW permit? Then you should be lobbying your legislators to increase the minimum age to acquire a CCW permit, not trying to limit the ability of someone who legally acquired a CCW permit to exercise their ability to carry a concealed firearm.


So is Chris. But they still let him on a college campus.
(All be it Ohio State, which barely qualifies as an institution of higher learning.)
at least I managed to stay at an institution of higher learning for more than a handful of semesters! :D

[McVaaahhh]

Thanks Jim. :up:

[will-t]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.

The problem with this analogy is that unlike a concert or the airport, not everyone on a college campus is searched. There are not metal detectors on every entrance to every building and walking paths through campus are not secluded from the rest of the world.

At an airport, once you pass a certain point, no one is armed (unless a screener didn't do their job properly). On a college campus, you have to deal with people who may or may not be present for the purpose of learning or even because they belong on campus.

Also, you called 21 year olds babes. At what point does someone become an adult capable of making, in your opinion, proper and reasonable choices? At 21 friends of mine were in foreign countries carrying machine guns protecting entire populations from dangerous elements. At 21 people can vote. At 21 people are most of the way through college and are expected to be gearing up to join society in a productive manner.

So they can help decide who runs the country, they can die for that country, they can be sought after as the next members of productive society, but they can't be trusted to be responsible in their own self defense?

[dirkterrell]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc.


If everyone were searched before being allowed to enter a secured campus, you might have a point. As it is, the law abiding will be disarmed, the criminals know they will face no resistance for who knows how long until the police arrive, assess what's going on and neutralize the murderer. You end up with events like the Virginia Tech, Nothern Illinois, L’École Polytechnique,... massacres.


Dirk

[TFOGGuys]

Not for violating the right to bear arms for a 21 year old...just not on a college campus....for the same reason you are searched at the airport, concerts,etc. The very nature of the campus life is justification enough....situations CAN be heightened very quickly in this unique atmosphere. As an instructor, I don't want my students in my room carrying guns...period.

Under Colorado law, they could legally prevent the carriage of weapons simply by installing metal detectors in all of their buildings. Under those conditions, carrying a concealed weapon would be illegal. But the University doesn't stop with concealed carry. They prohibit the possession of ANY weapon(including mace or tear gas), anywhere on campus, including a locked vehicle, dorm room, etc. Do you think there might be a reduction in the number of sexual assaults at CU Boulder if the potential rapists knew that a significant chance of being shot in the attempt existed?

In reality, a gun is the only "equalizer" that is truly effective for a smaller, weaker victim against a larger, stronger attacker. No matter how well trained a 5 foot 6, 120 pound woman is, a 6 foot, 200 pound man that is even slightly trained and determined will be able to subdue her.

[Devaclis]

Exactly..and I would agree with you, but not in the hands of babes. They aren't any more able to handle this than a 5 year old. Is Metalord the only one here who makes any sense on this issue?

Is the only reason he makes sense because you think he is agreeing with you?

I see how this works.

[Sortarican]

Go after the process that allowed them to have it in the first place!

at least I managed to stay at an institution of higher learning for more than a handful of semesters! :D

Agreed, there's a fine line between keeping CCW access available and handing them out like baseball cards.
Though I haven't taken any of the courses out there specifically geared to getting your CCW,
from what I've heard they're not as stringent as they might be.

BTW, everyone knows that 1 semester at Penn State has a transfer credit value of an associate’s degree at OU.
And just 'cause they kept you in a cage for 4 years at the OU animal husbandry lab, it doesn't entitle you to a degree.

[MetaLord 9]

The problem with this analogy is that unlike a concert or the airport, not everyone on a college campus is searched. There are not metal detectors on every entrance to every building and walking paths through campus are not secluded from the rest of the world.

At an airport, once you pass a certain point, no one is armed (unless a screener didn't do their job properly). On a college campus, you have to deal with people who may or may not be present for the purpose of learning or even because they belong on campus.

Also, you called 21 year olds babes. At what point does someone become an adult capable of making, in your opinion, proper and reasonable choices? At 21 friends of mine were in foreign countries carrying machine guns protecting entire populations from dangerous elements. At 21 people can vote. At 21 people are most of the way through college and are expected to be gearing up to join society in a productive manner.

So they can help decide who runs the country, they can die for that country, they can be sought after as the next members of productive society, but they can't be trusted to be responsible in their own self defense?
:imwithstupid:!

[puckstr]

Agreed, there's a fine line between keeping CCW access available and handing them out like baseball cards.
Though I haven't taken any of the courses out there specifically geared to getting your CCW,
from what I've heard they're not as stringent as they might be.



I will let you know.

Man... I wish I was at the range right NOW

[TFOGGuys]

Agreed, there's a fine line between keeping CCW access available and handing them out like baseball cards.
Though I haven't taken any of the courses out there specifically geared to getting your CCW,
from what I've heard they're not as stringent as they might be.


Colorado requirements are quite lax, not so with other states. My CCW course was ~12 hours of classroom, and I had to demonstrate safe handling proficiency with a variety of weapons, as well as provide proof of prior shooting proficiency and experience.

[MetaLord 9]

BTW, everyone knows that 1 semester at Penn State has a transfer credit value of an associate’s degree at OU.
And just 'cause they kept you in a cage for 4 years at the OU animal husbandry lab, it doesn't entitle you to a degree.
Too bad that fine education that they manage to cram into your one semester at the State Penn failed to provide you with an education worthy of an institution of higher learning. For instance, OU are the initials for Oklahoma University and Ohio University (amongst many others), not Ohio State University (which woudl be OSU). :D

[will-t]

Colorado requirements are quite lax, not so with other states. My CCW course was ~12 hours of classroom, and I had to demonstrate safe handling proficiency with a variety of weapons, as well as provide proof of prior shooting proficiency and experience.

CO requirements for CCW involve taking a safety class, filling out a rather involved application, turning in said application with proof of successful completion of a class, the municipality where you apply then runs a criminal (laws) and civilian (banking, risk) background check on you and decides at that point if there is anything to disqualify you from earning a CCW.

The classes can range from a simple hunter safety course (12 hours of the most boring instruction you can imagine with a safe shooting proficiency test at the end), all the way up to dedicated concealed carry classes (many days consisting of classroom work mostly regarding CCW laws and firearm safety, and range time showing safe and proficient use of a number of firearms). Prices range from $20 or so for the hunter safety courses up to hundreds of dollars for the CCW specific classes. While seeking out classes myself, I found that the simple hunter safety courses are more difficult to get into. They fill up quickly because of actual hunters needing them to gain hunting licenses. Everyone I spoke with at gun or sportsman related shops suggested and provided informative materials for the more in depth CCW specific type of course. The cheapest of which was $150 and spanned 3 days.

The application process runs $153 plus any additional fees that your municipality decides to place on the process.

Depending on what municipality you go through, and how many applications they need to process, the entire deal can take anywhere from 2-12 weeks for the background checks to clear and decisions to be made.

Even with the lax requirements of CO, it's still enough of a process that it takes a bit of dedication on the part of the person attempting to qualify for and receive a CCW. Also, unlike the popular stereotype of gun nuts trying to get you into the club as fast as possible, everyone I've dealt with regarding CCW treated it as a very serious responsibility. No one suggested ways of shortcutting the system or any other less than safe behavior.

[Pandora-11]

Is the only reason he makes sense because you think he is agreeing with you?

I see how this works.


Ha....no...his arguments are at least reasoned and he is making a case for a position I might be convinced of.

I can believe in bacon.....You guys are too funny.

Good debate though.

[Speedwagon]

I have three nieces and nephews at UF where firearms issues have occurred. You don't give kids more to carry than they are capable of carrying.....and as someone who is around teens everyday, believe me when I say Ninja is right on this one...they don't even need water pistols.

But it's already been stated multiple times, that you need to be 21 for a CCW. So that completely takes teens out of it.

The part I don't get in so many people's arguments, is you keep bringing up college kids. If you can't CCW until 21, that rules out 3/4 of college 'kids' right there. There is a large difference between 18 and 21. And I'm willing to bet that no more than 1 or 2% of ALL 21 year olds even think about getting a CCW. So how many 'kids' do you really think even carry?

[TFOGGuys]

CO requirements for CCW involve taking a safety class, filling out a rather involved application, turning in said application with proof of successful completion of a class, the municipality where you apply then runs a criminal (laws) and civilian (banking, risk) background check on you and decides at that point if there is anything to disqualify you from earning a CCW.

The classes can range from a simple hunter safety course (12 hours of the most boring instruction you can imagine with a safe shooting proficiency test at the end), all the way up to dedicated concealed carry classes (many days consisting of classroom work mostly regarding CCW laws and firearm safety, and range time showing safe and proficient use of a number of firearms). Prices range from $20 or so for the hunter safety courses up to hundreds of dollars for the CCW specific classes. While seeking out classes myself, I found that the simple hunter safety courses are more difficult to get into. They fill up quickly because of actual hunters needing them to gain hunting licenses. Everyone I spoke with at gun or sportsman related shops suggested and provided informative materials for the more in depth CCW specific type of course. The cheapest of which was $150 and spanned 3 days.

The application process runs $153 plus any additional fees that your municipality decides to place on the process.

Depending on what municipality you go through, and how many applications they need to process, the entire deal can take anywhere from 2-12 weeks for the background checks to clear and decisions to be made.

Even with the lax requirements of CO, it's still enough of a process that it takes a bit of dedication on the part of the person attempting to qualify for and receive a CCW. Also, unlike the popular stereotype of gun nuts trying to get you into the club as fast as possible, everyone I've dealt with regarding CCW treated it as a very serious responsibility. No one suggested ways of shortcutting the system or any other less than safe behavior.
Many counties will not accept a Hunter safety course(Jeffco, for instance, states this on their CCW FAQ (http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/sheriff/sheriff_T62_R126.htm) page). My class was a dedicated Colorado/Utah CCW course. The reasons for having a Utah permit as well as a Colorado permit are several, and not relevant to this thread.

[Pandora-11]

But it's already been stated multiple times, that you need to be 21 for a CCW. So that completely takes teens out of it.

The part I don't get in so many people's arguments, is you keep bringing up college kids. If you can't CCW until 21, that rules out 3/4 of college 'kids' right there. There is a large difference between 18 and 21. And I'm willing to bet that no more than 1 or 2% of ALL 21 year olds even think about getting a CCW. So how many 'kids' do you really think even carry?

These 21 year olds probably live off campus. Have your gun...just dont bring it on campus around the toddlers. Colleges get to decide this...not us.

[PROFLYER]

Not really a good example for your argument.
She was a member of the church's security staff. Not an average Joe with a CCW permit.
I don't think most people have a problem with having armed security on campus.
Wrong, she is a former cop who was known by the church as a carrying member. She made the call to have extra security on site. She is NOT on the payroll, if she had been his family would have sued the church big time. The coroner did her a favor as well by citing cause of death as self-inflicted, again, saving her from a huge lawsuit.

VT had security, it didn't save anyone, the cops were there within minutes...still didn't save anyone. I could care less if you agree with me or not, but those of us that do carry choose to because we're smart enough to know that when seconds matter the cops are just minutes away. The average response time in most cities is under 7 minutes, yet people are still massacred annually. It is your life and the life of your family possibly, and it is your choice to make. I do know for a fact that a well armed society is a polite society and have seen first hand what armed citizens can do to thwart unprovoked violent crime. These mass killings happen because people snap and go into a place where they know they will be unopposed.

[PROFLYER]

YOu obviously don't have a teenager....and some of the kids aren't retarded. Mine of course...:) She's a beautiful, smart, and mature student just looking for a her education. She doesn't doesn't need to be worrying abut who in his drunken state is going to pull a gun on her. The rest?......she can take down.

My ass, your little girl could be the next one attacked in the alley, quit lying to yourself. I hope she sticks with daddy's plan and never walks down the streets, because the guy leaving the frat party she just left is infinitely more able to kill her with his truck. No one with a CCW has ever gone off and killed someone. Lets look at how many students die per WEEKEND due to drinking/drugs and operating a 5000# weapon.

YOU HAVE TO BE 21 TO EVEN POSESS A FIREARM! Most kids are seniors by then and the amount of training and discipline that's required to carry is (not enough) but tough to do. You guys act like it's the wild wild west, you'd never know who was carrying, and that's the point.

[Mental]

...YOU HAVE TO BE 21 TO EVEN POSESS A FIREARM! Most kids are seniors by then and the amount of training and discipline that's required to carry is (not enough) but tough to do. You guys act like it's the wild wild west, you'd never know who was carrying, and that's the point.


Yeah, but if they are seniors with even the slightest bit of intellegnce and experince, they aren't on campus before noon and never have classes on Friday.

Who will think of the children?

[TFOGGuys]

My ass, your little girl could be the next one attacked in the alley, quit lying to yourself. I hope she sticks with daddy's plan and never walks down the streets, because the guy leaving the frat party she just left is infinitely more able to kill her with his truck. No one with a CCW has ever gone off and killed someone. Lets look at how many students die per WEEKEND due to drinking/drugs and operating a 5000# weapon.

YOU HAVE TO BE 21 TO EVEN POSESS A FIREARM! Most kids are seniors by then and the amount of training and discipline that's required to carry is (not enough) but tough to do. You guys act like it's the wild wild west, you'd never know who was carrying, and that's the point.

At least 50% of parents that believe their kids are above average are WRONG.

[PROFLYER]

I am NOT debating CCW at all. It is simply my opinion that college students should not have guns in school classrooms. By your logic we should allow high school students to carry guns. Shit, that might have stopped Columbine. How about the elementary school students that went on a rampage. Maybe we should allow 3rd graders to carry?

I believe that guns (concealed or otherwise) have no business being carried by students in any school.



No, armed security guards were the answer in that case. Don't ever call me ignorant.
Then quit brandishing it. Again, if you took that first post as insulting, that's your fault, it wasn't meant to be.

But moving forward, I'm not saying that everyone needs to carry, perhaps our issue is your reading comprehension holdup. I've stated several times that you must be 21 to carry and I'm not for a second arguing that the laws should change. I'm simply arguing that if someone takes the necessary steps, forcing them to leave their gun in the car or at home or whatever at said establishment (school in this case) further enforces the fact that statistically mass killing happens at GUN FREE ZONES.

I didn't read your articles as there is always an exception to the rule, but overall the push has been positive and has lowered violent crime rates in the states that allow it.

[rforsythe]

No one with a CCW has ever gone off and killed someone.

I find that extremely hard to believe. Unlikely? Perhaps. But statistically speaking, some unstable asshat with a CCW has likely popped off a couple rounds when he wasn't defending himself. CCW's do not screen for, nor guarantee against someone being stupid. They just make sure you haven't in the past, and license you to do the right thing if absolutely necessary.


Lets look at how many students die per WEEKEND due to drinking/drugs and operating a 5000# weapon. Yes, and that's illegal.


YOU HAVE TO BE 21 TO EVEN POSESS A FIREARM!Wrong! You can buy a long weapon at 18, a handgun at 21. You can have one in your posession legally at any age I believe, though as a minor there is probably something about parental supervision (I am not sure off hand). You have to be 21 to get a CCW.


You guys act like it's the wild wild west, you'd never know who was carrying, and that's the point.No, I think people are acting like they don't want a bunch of college kids with guns, CCW or not. Even if a licensed, responsible 21 year old student is present with a gun, that doesn't mean some idiot won't find it in his dorm room one night and get dumb with it. That doesn't mean he won't slip up in traditional "college settings" (which happen about every other night) and cause an incident. Yeah I know the training is designed to prevent these things, but IMO the risk outweighs the remote potential benefit.

I don't think it should be illegal, however I think schools should be well within their rights to dictate policies as they see fit - and if they say no, then either respect that, or find somewhere else to be educated.

[PROFLYER]

Yeah, but if they are seniors with even the slightest bit of intellegnce and experince, they aren't on campus before noon and never have classes on Friday.

Who will think of the children?


:headbang::headbang::guns: I guess the kids are screwed!

[Devaclis]

Like I asked before, is it legal right now to have a weapon on capmus with a CCW?

If so, how many people in the last 5 years have been killed by a gun owned by a CCW holder? How many people there have been killed by a gun on campus at all? Do't run around screaming epidemic unless you have basis.

You guys need to stop living your lives scared of everything and just start living, YOUR lives.

[PROFLYER]

I find that extremely hard to believe. Unlikely? Perhaps. But statistically speaking, some unstable asshat with a CCW has likely popped off a couple rounds when he wasn't defending himself. CCW's do not screen for, nor guarantee against someone being stupid. They just make sure you haven't in the past, and license you to do the right thing if absolutely necessary.

Yes, and that's illegal.

Wrong! You can buy a long weapon at 18, a handgun at 21. You can have one in your posession legally at any age I believe, though as a minor there is probably something about parental supervision (I am not sure off hand). You have to be 21 to get a CCW.

No, I think people are acting like they don't want a bunch of college kids with guns, CCW or not. Even if a licensed, responsible 21 year old student is present with a gun, that doesn't mean some idiot won't find it in his dorm room one night and get dumb with it. That doesn't mean he won't slip up in traditional "college settings" (which happen about every other night) and cause an incident. Yeah I know the training is designed to prevent these things, but IMO the risk outweighs the remote potential benefit.

I don't think it should be illegal, however I think schools should be well within their rights to dictate policies as they see fit - and if they say no, then either respect that, or find somewhere else to be educated.

I meant the CCW has to be 21 as with any hand gun. You can't conceal a shotgun (well, you can, but you get my point).

I can carry at CSU, I have lots of friends who carry at CSU. They leave it when they go to parties, most honestly JUST carry to class incase some asshat comes in blasting.

I'm sure some CCW holder has popped off a few rounds being an idiot, we can't say NEVER to anything, but save from a few morons compared to the entire polity of CCW holders it's a non-issue.

[puckstr]

Like I asked before, is it legal right now to have a weapon on capmus with a CCW?

If so, how many people in the last 5 years have been killed by a gun owned by a CCW holder? How many people there have been killed by a gun on campus at all? Do't run around screaming epidemic unless you have basis.

You guys need to stop living your lives scared of everything and just start living, YOUR lives.


I http://www.visittex.com/images/487.jpg

[Nick_Ninja]

I take extreame exception to who filed the claim:


Plaintiff Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, LLC (“SCCC”), is a membership organization incorporated under the laws of Texas with its principal place of business in Houston, Texas. SCCC has over 30,000 members and supporters in the United States and over 200 members in Colorado, including at least 50 in El Paso County. The purposes of SCCC include securing through education, outreach, and litigation the constitutional and statutory right to privately own, possess, and carry firearms within Colorado. SCCC brings this action on behalf of itself and its members.

And if you look at the three parties that are named as plaintiffs to the suit, one (Martha Altman from Highlands Ranch, CO) has had a CCW since 2006 and the other two since 2008. I hope this fucked up claim is thrown out on a TEXASScality.

[Pandora-11]

I find that extremely hard to believe. Unlikely? Perhaps. But statistically speaking, some unstable asshat with a CCW has likely popped off a couple rounds when he wasn't defending himself. CCW's do not screen for, nor guarantee against someone being stupid. They just make sure you haven't in the past, and license you to do the right thing if absolutely necessary.

Yes, and that's illegal.

Wrong! You can buy a long weapon at 18, a handgun at 21. You can have one in your posession legally at any age I believe, though as a minor there is probably something about parental supervision (I am not sure off hand). You have to be 21 to get a CCW.

No, I think people are acting like they don't want a bunch of college kids with guns, CCW or not. Even if a licensed, responsible 21 year old student is present with a gun, that doesn't mean some idiot won't find it in his dorm room one night and get dumb with it. That doesn't mean he won't slip up in traditional "college settings" (which happen about every other night) and cause an incident. Yeah I know the training is designed to prevent these things, but IMO the risk outweighs the remote potential benefit.

I don't think it should be illegal, however I think schools should be well within their rights to dictate policies as they see fit - and if they say no, then either respect that, or find somewhere else to be educated.


Thanks...well said.

[Speedwagon]

These 21 year olds probably live off campus. Have your gun...just dont bring it on campus around the toddlers. Colleges get to decide this...not us.

Those that are employed by the college, and attend the college, make up the college. Publicly funded colleges are supported by taxpayers as well, so we all get a say in what happens at them.

What about all those adults that are going back to school? Are they just as stupid with a CCW as you think 21 year olds are? How many 21 year olds actually live in a dorm room(and have a CCW)?

You certainly have a low opinion of society as a whole, to think that some average joe is suddenly going to swipe a gun from a legit CCW holder, and go on some rampage with it. I would guess that the occurences of such things happening are somewhere lower than 0.5%.

[PROFLYER]

I take extreame exception to who filed the claim:


Plaintiff Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, LLC (“SCCC”), is a membership organization incorporated under the laws of Texas with its principal place of business in Houston, Texas. SCCC has over 30,000 members and supporters in the United States and over 200 members in Colorado, including at least 50 in El Paso County. The purposes of SCCC include securing through education, outreach, and litigation the constitutional and statutory right to privately own, possess, and carry firearms within Colorado. SCCC brings this action on behalf of itself and its members.

And if you look at the three parties that are named as plaintiffs to the suit, one (Martha Altman from Highlands Ranch, CO) has had a CCW since 2006 and the other two since 2008. I hope this fucked up claim is thrown out on a TEXASScality.

I am a member of that and since most of us "kids" don't have the funds to hire an attorney this organization does so on our behalf. Just like the NRA lobbys with millions each year....together we stand kinda thing.

And who cares how long they've had one? You really couldn't get one until '05 anyway. My dad has had one for years, but that's because of who he is and who he donates money to. Now, we're a must issue state, it wasn't before.

[Pandora-11]

Those that are employed by the college, and attend the college, make up the college. Publicly funded colleges are supported by taxpayers as well, so we all get a say in what happens at them.

What about all those adults that are going back to school? Are they just as stupid with a CCW as you think 21 year olds are? How many 21 year olds actually live in a dorm room(and have a CCW)?

You certainly have a low opinion of society as a whole, to think that some average joe is suddenly going to swipe a gun from a legit CCW holder, and go on some rampage with it. I would guess that the occurences of such things happening are somewhere lower than 0.5%.


I guess you could say that....or I could say you are naive. I've been robbed twice in three months in the "nice" sections of town. You tell me how you think I've formed my opinion. Many of my friends live up in the Broadmoor Bluffs section of town....one was just abducted while he was shoveling snow and forced to tie up his wife and go to the ATM yesterday.
Five major robberies in Upper Skyway along with mine. No amount of insurance money can return what I've lost.
Yep....and my opinion of society is getting a whole lot lower everyday as crime is getting closer and closer to my doorstep. Might I purchase a gun?....probably....but still not on a college campus and certainly not brought to my classroom.

[Pandora-11]

.....and that from a Republican.

[McVaaahhh]

Then quit brandishing it. Again, if you took that first post as insulting, that's your fault, it wasn't meant to be.

But moving forward, I'm not saying that everyone needs to carry, perhaps our issue is your reading comprehension holdup. I've stated several times that you must be 21 to carry and I'm not for a second arguing that the laws should change. I'm simply arguing that if someone takes the necessary steps, forcing them to leave their gun in the car or at home or whatever at said establishment (school in this case) further enforces the fact that statistically mass killing happens at GUN FREE ZONES.

I didn't read your articles as there is always an exception to the rule, but overall the push has been positive and has lowered violent crime rates in the states that allow it.



This sort of ignorant thinking allows things like Virginia Tech to happen. Maybe you were a dumb ass frat 18-22 year old but that doesn't mean we all were.

I believe you insinuated that I'm a dumb-ass frat boy? Yeah, that's an insult.


Speaking to the ignorance of your first post wasn't meant to be an insult, but how you feel is your problem.

My post is ignorant because my opinion doesn't agree with yours. Yeah, another insult.



perhaps our issue is your reading comprehension holdup


Yup, another insult.


You're not helping your argument much. You're incapable of having an intelligent conversation without tossing insults and getting extremely aggitated and defensive. Just the type of person I want carrying a gun at all times. :rolleyes:

I agree that most massacres happen at gun free zones, but I think the reason is because that's where the people are rather than the criminals know that there are no guns there.

There's also a distinction between criminals and wackos. Criminals rob liquor stores and they pick quick, easy targets. I'm thinking Virginia Tech would still happen if they allowed people to Conceal Carry on the campus. The guy that did that shooting was crazy, not cold and calculating. The dude short-circuited and tried to take as many with him as he could. If someone in one of those classrooms had a gun would it have been a smaller massacre? Quite possibly. However, the odds of a massacre happening on a given day in a college classroom are so small that I don't believe it justifies the risk of allowing students to carry guns or any other weapon into their english class.

I know I would have freaked out if I accidentally caught a glimpse of someone carrying a gun on campus. Yes I know they are supposed to be concealed, but sometimes shit happens and they are momentarily un-concealed. My first thought would NOT have been "maybe he's got a CCW". No, it would have been "What the fuck is that guy doing with a gun in my class!!!???"


I get your point. You feel better protected because you're carrying a gun, and you probably are. That's your right, and good for you man. I just hope your short(ish) fuse doesn't cause you to do something stupid with that gun someday.

What I don't agree with is the need for students to carry guns into classrooms, regardless of the age of the students. I don't believe that it's a good idea. I went to college, and no I wasn't in a frat, and I don't feel the campus atmosphere is appropriate for guns. Off-campus, well that's the real world and you get what you get. I also don't believe that classrooms are so dangerous that we need guns carried by immature students.

And 21 absolutely is immature.

[Nick_Ninja]

<snip>Publicly funded colleges are supported by taxpayers as well, so we all get a say in what happens at them.<snip>


Exactly --- and my tax dollars are not going to support a bunch of irresponsible yoyo's packing heat on campus. I'm writing my state representative, the regent that represents my district, and my state senator next encouraging them to hike tuition for those 'students' who have filed this motion :D

[zetaetatheta]

What was Jesus packing?

[RyNo24]

I would rather be able to carry on campus. I know that my gun may not prevent a wacko from shooting up the school, but it would give me a fair chance at defending myself against him/her. I would rather go down fighting then cowering in the back of a classroom.

The ban is obviously not doing anything to keep the wackos from bringing guns on campus, no why can't innocent law abiding people bring them on.

Also, with the "drunk stupid gun totting frat kid" issue. You do not think that a lot of kids do not have guns already? There is little security in dorms to prevent a kid from hiding a gun under his mattress already. By allowing CCW on campus isn't going to be anything different. These bans just take guns away from the innocent and do nothing from keeping them out of criminals hands.

[puckstr]

I guess you could say that....or I could say you are naive. I've been robbed twice in three months in the "nice" sections of town. You tell me how you think I've formed my opinion. Many of my friends live up in the Broadmoor Bluffs section of town....one was just abducted while he was shoveling snow and forced to tie up his wife and go to the ATM yesterday.
Five major robberies in Upper Skyway along with mine. No amount of insurance money can return what I've lost.
Yep....and my opinion of society is getting a whole lot lower everyday as crime is getting closer and closer to my doorstep. Might I purchase a gun?....probably....but still not on a college campus and certainly not brought to my classroom.

Damn..Robbed twice in 3 months? Get a gun.


What was Jesus packing?

Nails and a big piece of wood

[PROFLYER]

You're not helping your argument much. You're incapable of having an intelligent conversation without tossing insults and getting extremely aggitated and defensive. Just the type of person I want carrying a gun at all times. :rolleyes:

I agree that most massacres happen at gun free zones, but I think the reason is because that's where the people are rather than the criminals know that there are no guns there.

There's also a distinction between criminals and wackos. Criminals rob liquor stores and they pick quick, easy targets. I'm thinking Virginia Tech would still happen if they allowed people to Conceal Carry on the campus. The guy that did that shooting was crazy, not cold and calculating. The dude short-circuited and tried to take as many with him as he could. If someone in one of those classrooms had a gun would it have been a smaller massacre? Quite possibly. However, the odds of a massacre happening on a given day in a college classroom are so small that I don't believe it justifies the risk of allowing students to carry guns or any other weapon into their english class.

I know I would have freaked out if I accidentally caught a glimpse of someone carrying a gun on campus. Yes I know they are supposed to be concealed, but sometimes shit happens and they are momentarily un-concealed. My first thought would NOT have been "maybe he's got a CCW". No, it would have been "What the fuck is that guy doing with a gun in my class!!!???"


I get your point. You feel better protected because you're carrying a gun, and you probably are. That's your right, and good for you man. I just hope your short(ish) fuse doesn't cause you to do something stupid with that gun someday.

What I don't agree with is the need for students to carry guns into classrooms, regardless of the age of the students. I don't believe that it's a good idea. I went to college, and no I wasn't in a frat, and I don't feel the campus atmosphere is appropriate for guns. Off-campus, well that's the real world and you get what you get. I also don't believe that classrooms are so dangerous that we need guns carried by immature students.

And 21 absolutely is immature.
I didn't ask you if you liked my argument, again, think as you wish about the insults, the first post of mine wasn't meant to be, the latter were. I said MAYBE you were a dumb frat boy, appears you were never in a frat, thus the MAYBE. Again, reading comprehension.

If 21 is so immature then maybe we should raise the drinking age? What's harder to get at 21.....a bottle of jack or a CCW? Which of those two kill more????

You can stereotype and continue to brandish your ignorance (yes, that's an insult) about all college age people being too young and immature but you fail to give credit to the system and what the system is for. Perhaps you don't understand the system, that's ignorance. Tell me, what do you do to prove you're not immature? And don't cite posts on this board, no one cares what happens online. I've been through the system and have taken all the required steps and have then gone beyond them. I have taken and now help teach tactical shooting classes, don't confuse my passion for OUR (that includes you) rights with me having a short fuse, it's simply passion and without people like me and the millions of other pro-right, pro-gun, pro-whatever citizens we would be stripped of them. I will argue until you're tired of hearing it, but the facts are the facts and our rights to possess firearms for personal protection are for the betterment of society.

You should hope that if shit ever hits the fan and some wacko comes into where you're having lunch one day that there's a guy like me (and many, many others) who will stand up for YOUR right to live, even if I don't like you or your opinions. The last thing I'd do is start asking, "are you pro-gun?" before I made a decision to act as quickly as possible to inflict incapacitating damage to said wacko through overwhelming violence with no regard for his/her well being. That's a lot of power to swallow and that's part of having a CCW. However, when compared to the mindset of someone who mentally has lost it that is how it has to go down.

We can speculate until the end of time, but a tradgedy like Virginia Tech is less likely to happen or be as pronounced at a college where the people who CHOOSE to make the right choices and responsibly carry a firearm attend. The Larimer County Sheriff said just that, and so far so good. I hope that nothing EVER happens at CU just the same that I hope I NEVER have to pull my gun, but if you refuse to educate yourself and plan for the worst don't be surprised when the worst shows up and you're unsure of what to do.

[PROFLYER]

I would rather be able to carry on campus. I know that my gun may not prevent a wacko from shooting up the school, but it would give me a fair chance at defending myself against him/her. I would rather go down fighting then cowering in the back of a classroom.

The ban is obviously not doing anything to keep the wackos from bringing guns on campus, no why can't innocent law abiding people bring them on.

Also, with the "drunk stupid gun totting frat kid" issue. You do not think that a lot of kids do not have guns already? There is little security in dorms to prevent a kid from hiding a gun under his mattress already. By allowing CCW on campus isn't going to be anything different. These bans just take guns away from the innocent and do nothing from keeping them out of criminals hands.

:idea: :yes: :yes: Good post


Those of you against this are missing the point I think. Everyone should have the opportunity to protect themselves. It is not my job to find and stop a killer 3 buildings away because I have a CCW, this isn't vigilante justice. My job (that I assume by carrying) is to protect myself. If that protection includes the people in my class so be it, but if we're sitting there being lectured and we hear shots next door you can bet your sweet ass I'll have mine out and ready and I'll be dammed if I'm not going to do my best to kill that person the moment he opens the door.

[Mental]

What was Jesus packing?


Nails and a big piece of wood


I feel like I am going to hell for thinking that is funny

[Pandora-11]

[quote=puckstr;390034]Damn..Robbed twice in 3 months? Get a gun.

A gun wouldn't have helped me in either case...one robbery was my window knocked out of my car....cost $400 to replace it. Wallet taken while hiking.
The other was my home...dog with me off hiking again. (Giving up hiking I guess.) Major home security added now. Gun next.....but NOT IN the classroom.

[DavidofColorado]

It's not "walking right into it" because it's not a double standard. Law enforcement officers should absolutely be allowed to carry a firearm as they are allowed privileges outside the normal requirements for everyday citizens in order to neutralize those who choose to stray outside the aforementioned boundaries.

Concerning whether or not I think students are capable of exhibiting the neccessary maturity & restraint to hold a CCW permit, I refer you to my earlier posts which state that it's the responsibility of the CCW permit process to ensure that, not me.

You see to be misreading or half-reading my posts here. I am advocating being able to carry your firearm on a college campus, should you be a licesensed firearm owner with a valid CCW permit. Perhaps where you're misunderstanding me is where I mention that, in a perfect world, would there ever be a use or necessity of a firearm on a college campus? Of course not! Is this a perfect world? Of couse not! Therefore, you should be able to follow my statements to the conclusion that legally carrying a concealed firearm should be allowed. Your inability to grant the premise of "in a perfect world" seems to be what's holding back your understanding of my point.

Addressing your last point, and acknowledging that this is indeed NOT a perfect world, do I think that a law enforcement officer will always be available to step in and rescue the situation from ruin? Absolutely not. In situations of desparation, I would be greatful to either have a firearm at my disposal or the disposal of someone else in the room who is proficient in its operation. Does the danger of doling out a 1000 dollar punishment for a 5 buck crime exist when a firearm is present (on either side of the situation)? Yes. Is it likely, providing that the firearm's operator is trained/licesensed, and using it to ensure the saftey of others? No it's not likely to happen.
I don't think that you are fully versed on self defense. If your metaphor for a 5 dollar crime means what I think it means. No you can't shoot someone for j walking. You can't do that and that is the first thing they teach in a CCW class. You can shoot someone who you a reasonable person believes that someone is trying to kill you or someone else.

Owning a gun is not a privilege its a right. Packing one under your coat seems to be right but you need a permit to exercise it.

In a perfect world guns would only be used for for hunting and target practice and in my version of a perfect world all guns would be black and automatic with the option of being belt fed or magazine fed. There would also be no arguments about who can carry them and who can't everyone would understand guns the way I do. No one would be nervous around them or even talking about them. Instructions on gun safety would start as soon as a child would walk and the Constitution Law would be a required class to graduate high school. Also people who say card carrying members of the NRA would be looked at for what they are bigoted close minded pussy that don't have an opinion of their own but instead should be made fun of and have their rights trampled on.

But talking about perfect anything has nothing to with reality. The reality is shit happens and if its going to happen to me I don't want to be morally superior as a victim. I want to be ignorant with a dead rapists/murderer/pissed of criminal with poor judgment dead at my feet.

If you really supported having CCW holders carry on the CU campus why didn't you just say that?

[Pandora-11]

What was Jesus packing?

Typical.....:banghead:

[puckstr]

I feel like I am going to hell for thinking that is funny

there is no hell..so laugh away


[quote=puckstr;390034]Damn..Robbed twice in 3 months? Get a gun.

A gun wouldn't have helped me in either case...one robbery was my window knocked out of my car....cost $400 to replace it. Wallet taken while hiking.
The other was my home...dog with me off hiking again. (Giving up hiking I guess.) Major home security added now. Gun next.....but NOT IN the classroom.

My bad.. Not enough information for my snap decision.
Keep hiking, never let criminals change the way you live. It is the criminals that need to have there way of live changed by force.

Bravo on deciding to get a firearm. I respect your personal choice on not caring in the classroom.

[DavidofColorado]

I take extreame exception to who filed the claim:


Plaintiff Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, LLC (“SCCC”), is a membership organization incorporated under the laws of Texas with its principal place of business in Houston, Texas. SCCC has over 30,000 members and supporters in the United States and over 200 members in Colorado, including at least 50 in El Paso County. The purposes of SCCC include securing through education, outreach, and litigation the constitutional and statutory right to privately own, possess, and carry firearms within Colorado. SCCC brings this action on behalf of itself and its members.

And if you look at the three parties that are named as plaintiffs to the suit, one (Martha Altman from Highlands Ranch, CO) has had a CCW since 2006 and the other two since 2008. I hope this fucked up claim is thrown out on a TEXASScality.

So what if they are based in Texas? I don't think NCAA is based here but they stick their noses in 1st amendment issues all over the country.

[Nick_Ninja]

So what if they are based in Texas? I don't think NCAA is based here but they stick their noses in 1st amendment issues all over the country.

What does the NCAA have to do with CCW court filings? For that matter, give me an example of an NCAA First Amendment infringement. I can't wait for your response on that one.

[Pandora-11]

What does the NCAA have to do with CCW court filings? For that matter, give me an example of an NCAA First Amendment infringement. I can't wait for your response on that one.

Nick,

What do you do at CU? My kid's over there....not sure she's safe with you.....JK

[Nick_Ninja]

Nick,

What do you do at CU? My kid's over there....not sure she's safe with you.....JK


Put it this way. I have a pretty good handle on the NCAA regulations.

[Pandora-11]

Compliance in the athletic department....

[Nick_Ninja]

Compliance in the athletic department....

I work with them .................... and all the other CUAD entities.

[McVaaahhh]

I didn't ask you if you liked my argument, again, think as you wish about the insults, the first post of mine wasn't meant to be, the latter were. I said MAYBE you were a dumb frat boy, appears you were never in a frat, thus the MAYBE. Again, reading comprehension.

If 21 is so immature then maybe we should raise the drinking age? What's harder to get at 21.....a bottle of jack or a CCW? Which of those two kill more????

You can stereotype and continue to brandish your ignorance (yes, that's an insult) about all college age people being too young and immature but you fail to give credit to the system and what the system is for. Perhaps you don't understand the system, that's ignorance. Tell me, what do you do to prove you're not immature? And don't cite posts on this board, no one cares what happens online. I've been through the system and have taken all the required steps and have then gone beyond them. I have taken and now help teach tactical shooting classes, don't confuse my passion for OUR (that includes you) rights with me having a short fuse, it's simply passion and without people like me and the millions of other pro-right, pro-gun, pro-whatever citizens we would be stripped of them. I will argue until you're tired of hearing it, but the facts are the facts and our rights to possess firearms for personal protection are for the betterment of society.

You should hope that if shit ever hits the fan and some wacko comes into where you're having lunch one day that there's a guy like me (and many, many others) who will stand up for YOUR right to live, even if I don't like you or your opinions. The last thing I'd do is start asking, "are you pro-gun?" before I made a decision to act as quickly as possible to inflict incapacitating damage to said wacko through overwhelming violence with no regard for his/her well being. That's a lot of power to swallow and that's part of having a CCW. However, when compared to the mindset of someone who mentally has lost it that is how it has to go down.

We can speculate until the end of time, but a tradgedy like Virginia Tech is less likely to happen or be as pronounced at a college where the people who CHOOSE to make the right choices and responsibly carry a firearm attend. The Larimer County Sheriff said just that, and so far so good. I hope that nothing EVER happens at CU just the same that I hope I NEVER have to pull my gun, but if you refuse to educate yourself and plan for the worst don't be surprised when the worst shows up and you're unsure of what to do.

I think you need the help with reading comprehension. You seem to think that my opinion that there shouldn't be guns in classrooms is some sort of anti-gun statement. I am pro-gun, and I am pro-CCW, I just don't believe they belong in a college classroom.

Tell me exactly what is IGNORANT in my opinions? I think you have ignorance in the use of that word...

I'm not arguing facts with you or any one else, rather just stating my opinion that I believe students carrying a gun in class is a bad idea. I believe that risk to the general well being on campus is greater than the reward of the "what ifs". I believe that students should feel safe on campus, and shouldn't feel the need to carry guns to "protect themselves from a massacre".

I do believe 21 is immature because, well, I was 21 at one time and made my share of stupid decisions both with and without alcohol and now 10 years later I have the intelligence and experience to realize how immature I really was back then. And I'll probably say the same thing about myself now in another 10 years.

I don't plan for the worst because I guess I'm kind of a glass is half full person. I didn't rush out and buy duct tape and plastic to cover my windows in case of a terrorist attack either.

The odds of getting into a situation where you can stop a massacre because you're carrying are so small it's not remotely an effective argument to carry a gun everywhere you go. Especially from someone who takes the risk of riding a motorcycle. You're much more likely to die in a traffic accident than in some columbine-style massacre. Carry it for protection, fine, but don't tell me it's so you can stop a massacre, that's just crap.

Because you're obviously a little slow, I'll repeat myself. I am NOT against guns or CCW's. I BELIEVE that guns in schools is a bad idea. I BELIEVE that because I know how I would feel when I was in school if I knew that students were carrying, that is all. It is entirely based on MY PERSONAL FEELINGS. You can't throw insults or statistics at me to change that.

As for proving my maturity level, I think you've done more than enough to prove where mine is in relation to yours...

[Pandora-11]

I work with them .................... and all the other CUAD entities.

Attorney or AD or admin

i ask this because my husband had been a college athletic director for many years. Div 1.

[Nick_Ninja]

I work for the AD.

[RyNo24]

Another points about 21 year olds being "too immature" to carry CCWs or guns for that matter. A 21 year old is allowed to legally drink, which he/she can drink too much, get behind a wheel, and kill people with their car. I am more afriad of some idiot hitting my on my bike drinking than some CCW carrier shooting me...(look up the number of DUI related deaths to that of CCW people killing other people)

Also, an 18 year old can join the Armed Forces, where he/she will be given an assualt rifle, grenades, and other high power weapons. Also, the Armed Forces allows there "immature" 18-21 year olds to drive/pilot their millions of dollars tanks, planes, helicopters etc. So if the Armed Forces trusts these kids with this kind of fire power, I think someone with proper CCW training can handle a pistol just fine.

[Nick_Ninja]

Another points about 21 year olds being "too immature" to carry CCWs or guns for that matter. A 21 year old is allowed to legally drink, which he/she can drink too much, get behind a wheel, and kill people with their car. I am more afriad of some idiot hitting my on my bike drinking than some CCW carrier shooting me...

Also, an 18 year old can join the Armed Forces, where he/she will be given an assualt rifle, grenades, and other high power weapons. Also, the Armed Forces allows there "immature" 18-21 year olds to drive/pilot their millions of dollars tanks, planes, helicopters etc. So if the Armed Forces trusts these kids with this kind of fire power, I think someone with proper CCW training can handle a pistol just fine.

That still doesn't mean that they need to pack their cock-extensions on campus.

[RyNo24]

That still doesn't mean that they need to pack their cock-extensions on campus.

So, the idiot syco kid can come in with his "cock-extension" and just shoot away at unarmed innocent people. This is not a matter of idiots with guns, this is a matter of properly trained CCW people carrying weopons to defend themselves. I cannot understand how people can be this igorant about gun bans. Gun bans to ONE THING, take guns away the INNOCENT.

[Nick_Ninja]

So, the idiot syco kid can come in with his "cock-extension" and just shoot away at unarmed innocent people. This is not a matter of idiots with guns, this is a matter of properly trained CCW people carrying weopons to defend themselves. I cannot understand how people can be this igorant about gun bans. Gun bans to ONE THING, take guns away the INNOCENT.

I have no issue with CCW --- just check your fuckin gun at the door when you step foot on a campus of higher education. We have a state funded campus police force that can handle most any threat.

[dirkterrell]

Some interesting reading:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lott/lott14.html

Dirk

[RyNo24]

I have no issue with CCW --- just check your fuckin gun at the door when you step foot on a campus of higher education. We have a state funded campus police force that can handle most any threat.

I go to campus, and on average I will see two of the these security people driving around in the parking lots. Yeah, a lot of good they will do against a shooter in a classroom out there in the parking lot. I rarely see them inside the buildings. Until there is an armed guard in every classroom, you cannot use them as an example of safety. VT had them too, and guess what? It took them a couple minuets to get there when it was too late. Also, remember Columbine? when the cops did not want to go in and stop those kids? I trust one person with my personal safety, me. Also, my CCW gun does not cost the tax payers anymore money, but these false sense of security guards gives the public does...

A cop will take minuets to get there, my bullet will take less than a second. Nuff said...

[DavidofColorado]

What does the NCAA have to do with CCW court filings? For that matter, give me an example of an NCAA First Amendment infringement. I can't wait for your response on that one.
Oops my bad. NAACP is what I meant. And when I say that they stick their noses in it, I mean that they further freedoms based on the 1st amendment. They don't care the for the second amendment at all but that is because they are antigun. But the point was why should an organization be excluded because they are from Texas? They are bank rolling the complaint just like the NAACP does for the poor kid that wants to talk ebonicly and just like the Brady Camp pays for the attorneys sueing the gun industry to drive them out of business.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Don't get all jealousy about the fact that I am a member of the winning team ------ and can kick yo ass at foosball ------ with one hand on the bong :D
Congratulating you on being on the winning political team is like congratulating the "winner" that got the chamber with the round in it in a game of Russian Roulette!:)

......and you can have the bong back when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers!:D

Great seeing you guys this weekend!

[DavidofColorado]

I have no issue with CCW --- just check your fuckin gun at the door when you step foot on a campus of higher education. We have a state funded campus police force that can handle most any threat.

That is the reason I think this rule needs to be changed. You tell the innocent to disarm and learn how to be good marxist college students. But are you going to be as tough if something really bad happens? I think you are going to run away and hide unarmed and scared shitless.

Another thing about the school shootings that no one wants to bring up is the amount of time it takes for the police to get the place locked down. VT they came to a distubance and left and some time later came back to set up a perimeter. Same thing with Columbine, one of the teachers bleed to death before the police entered the building.

I don't want to be cornered in a class room with a criminal while the police set up shop out side. Not knowing if he is going to kill me or worse have to listen about why he's doing all this shit. I would like shoot him and go let the poor soul rest than let people die because people didn't want me to carry on campus. Why, because they seen to many college party films. :drink:

For the most part I think that College student will have to work hard and be mature or they will flunk out. And at 21 they are legally of age to do it no matter what you think. I support that decision as long as they don't fuck it up.

[Sortarican]

Wrong, she is a former cop who was known by the church as a carrying member. She made the call to have extra security on site. She is NOT on the payroll,......

How is what I said in any way "wrong"?
Just because she wasn't paid doesn't mean she wasn't there in an official capacity, she was.

Also,
You might want to calm down in your statements a little if you expect anyone to take what you say seriously.
Shouting down anyone that disagrees with you is completely defeating the rationally expressed portions of your opinions.
But hey, that's your call. If you want to be dismissed as just another gun nutt, flame on.
(Just remember, David of Denver was here first.)

[Speedwagon]

I guess you could say that....or I could say you are naive. I've been robbed twice in three months in the "nice" sections of town. You tell me how you think I've formed my opinion. Many of my friends live up in the Broadmoor Bluffs section of town....one was just abducted while he was shoveling snow and forced to tie up his wife and go to the ATM yesterday.
Five major robberies in Upper Skyway along with mine. No amount of insurance money can return what I've lost.
Yep....and my opinion of society is getting a whole lot lower everyday as crime is getting closer and closer to my doorstep. Might I purchase a gun?....probably....but still not on a college campus and certainly not brought to my classroom.

So you are saying that a police officer, off duty, attending college, is not responsible enough to CCW while on a college campus? You seem to have drawn a very finite line in the sand, that would include off duty officers. Off duty officer might need to leave at any time for an emergency, and it'd sure be nice if they were actually ready to go to that emergency. And if you say no weapons on campus at all, that would mean the officer couldn't leave such a weapon in his vehicle, either. You have just disarmed the person you trust to protect you, and this person can no longer provide said protection.

One could argue the point that those robberies could have been prevented by a CCW person in the immediate area. Removing guns from those that are properly trained to use them doesn't help anyone.

As Metalord said, if you think those that have them aren't properly trained, your issue is not with where they can carry, but who can carry.

[Pandora-11]

So you are saying that a police officer, off duty, attending college, is not responsible enough to CCW while on a college campus? You seem to have drawn a very finite line in the sand, that would include off duty officers. Off duty officer might need to leave at any time for an emergency, and it'd sure be nice if they were actually ready to go to that emergency. And if you say no weapons on campus at all, that would mean the officer couldn't leave such a weapon in his vehicle, either. You have just disarmed the person you trust to protect you, and this person can no longer provide said protection.

One could argue the point that those robberies could have been prevented by a CCW person in the immediate area. Removing guns from those that are properly trained to use them doesn't help anyone.

As Metalord said, if you think those that have them aren't properly trained, your issue is not with where they can carry, but who can carry.

Actually, I don't have a problem with police officers ever taking off their guns....the question in my mind may very well be who gets them....you're right.

[wulf]

I have a 19 year freshman on the CU campus (although she lives in a condo off campus). I do not want the general population carrying weapons. They are not ready for this kind of action. Immaturity and drunken parties is a recipe for disaster!
I want the police and security to protect the students, not other students.
So what do you think of some irresponsible places like the Marine Corps? i mean they don't just give them pistols, they give them machine guns!

Most people don't realize that the average gun owner here on CSC shoots more each year than the average cop.

[Pandora-11]

So what do you think of some irresponsible places like the Marine Corps? i mean they don't just give them pistols, they give them machine guns!


I know...it's frightening. Wish we didn't have to use our youth this way.

[wulf]

Pandora,

If you like poetry, listen to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u67l7EaJRU

You are a sheep. You fight against us, you dislike what we do, but when truly needed like the lady in the church security team, we spring up.

There are several cases of deranged gunman who were stopped by normal people with the sheepdog mentality.


Most take the opportunity to point out my nickname at this point which is part of a different analogy


"Men cannot be governed and remain men. Domesticate the wolf and he changes both physically and mentally. His muzzle shrinks, his teeth diminish, he loses size, speed, and strength, He grows spots. His ears flop. His brain withers. He becomes a dog. Men are on the verge of becoming dogs -- the changes are underway already -- unless we do something to stop it." L. Neil Smith

[PROFLYER]

How is what I said in any way "wrong"?
Just because she wasn't paid doesn't mean she wasn't there in an official capacity, she was.

Also,
You might want to calm down in your statements a little if you expect anyone to take what you say seriously.
Shouting down anyone that disagrees with you is completely defeating the rationally expressed portions of your opinions.
But hey, that's your call. If you want to be dismissed as just another gun nutt, flame on.
(Just remember, David of Denver was here first.)

You said she was hired armed security which is incorrect.

I don't downplay shit, I don't have to. I don't care if all of you think I'm an asshole who's pompous and arrogant. I've made this part of my life and leave the house each day knowing what responsibility I accept. Those who know me know I'm someone they can count on and who is honest to a fault. Hopefully I'll get to know some of you over the years and I'll hope you'll take me for who I am.

Tenure on a forum carries no weight, gimme a break.

Mcvaaah, I didn't say you were anti gun. Your comments, however, are anti-system and it's the system we all get to play within and live with. At 21 you can do so many things, getting a CCW as a good citizen is one of them. Prior convictions for DUI's, felonies, domestic violence etc. and you're denied. It's a character test almost and the permit can be revoked at any time. Also, I never said I planned on stopping a massacre or looking for one. You seriously need to work on the reading thing, I'm pretty sure my last post read that I hope I NEVER HAVE TO USE MY GUN. That doesn't make me a gun nut, that makes me someone who has the balls to stand up for both myself and others if necessary. Unprovoked violent crime is huge on campus and in the world in general and your IGNORANCE of thinking that armed security works is b.s. and I hope you realize that. Go stroll around a campus and you'll see 2 cops sleeping in a parking lot. At 21 a responsible adult should be able to have the OPTION to possibly defend himself should it become necessary. Again, don't confuse my passion for a lack of maturity or my having a short fuse. You may "think" you're smarter, older, whatever but the only thing your resume has on mine is time, and its a few years anyway.

Whoever is was that has a daughter at CU should seriously talk to her about personal protection. It does not need to be a gun, but last time I checked girls were being assaulted in the streets with some alarming regularity!

Checking our guns at the door is not a decision I'd let any of you make for me. People with the drive to kill don't see a NO GUN sign and say "oh shit, I can't be here, that's breaking the law!"

A few of us who actually go to school have spoken, possibly the majority of you are too far removed and don't know what really can happen or you choose for some reason to put it out of sight out of mind. Your kids go there, so perhaps the idea of something happening is not a thought you want to entertain, but I guarantee you the parents who lost their kids ask themselves every day "what if?" What if students who were responsible and trained could carry? Would it have saved my daughters life? My sons? We have to embrace tragedy and choose to learn from it. I hope and pray that it NEVER EVER happens anywhere else, but we can all hope in one hand and shit in the other....

The cops are worthless and it is NOT their job to protect you (not bashing cops at all, but even they'll tell you it's not their job and it's impossible to do) it is their job to investigate crime, thus the reason we're allowed as a polity the option to defend ourselves.

If you can't swallow that, I hear Canada has free health care. If you allow yourself to be a victim you can not be your own hero.

[McVaaahhh]

Mcvaaah, I didn't say you were anti gun. Your comments, however, are anti-system and it's the system we all get to play within and live with. At 21 you can do so many things, getting a CCW as a good citizen is one of them. Prior convictions for DUI's, felonies, domestic violence etc. and you're denied. It's a character test almost and the permit can be revoked at any time. Also, I never said I planned on stopping a massacre or looking for one. You seriously need to work on the reading thing, I'm pretty sure my last post read that I hope I NEVER HAVE TO USE MY GUN. That doesn't make me a gun nut, that makes me someone who has the balls to stand up for both myself and others if necessary. Unprovoked violent crime is huge on campus and in the world in general and your IGNORANCE of thinking that armed security works is b.s. and I hope you realize that. Go stroll around a campus and you'll see 2 cops sleeping in a parking lot. At 21 a responsible adult should be able to have the OPTION to possibly defend himself should it become necessary. Again, don't confuse my passion for a lack of maturity or my having a short fuse. You may "think" you're smarter, older, whatever but the only thing your resume has on mine is time, and its a few years anyway.


So, you're saying that I SHOULD believe in the CCW system that because I SHOULD NOT believe in the system (campus police, regular police, and other security) that exists to protect me? Why would I trust one government "system" over any other. They all have their holes and flaws and we as a people need to force our elected officials to make the changes necessary to fix the system (whatever it may be). The shooter at VT is a perfect example. He legally purchased fire-arms and then went on a rampage, that particular system obviously didn't work there.

Passion is a wonderful thing and I'm glad you have it. However, there's a fine line between coming off as passionate and coming off as just an asshole with opinion. When you start slinging insults and talking down to people because their opinion differs from yours is when people start leaning towards the latter. Maybe you do need a few more years/experiences on your resume to learn that, but you seem intelligent enough that I feel like you'll get it.

Age does not make maturity. Yes you can get a CCW at 21 and if you meet the minimum requirements and want one, please by all means, go and get one. I just say leave the gun at home when you come to the library on campus because the majority of college students (read 18-22 yr olds) IMHO can't handle it. I did not say all, and there are plenty of 50 yr olds that are too immature to own, much less concealed carry a firearm. Unfortunately the qualifications can't weed out the dumb/immature ones.

It's really like getting your drivers license. Just because you're old enough and passed all your tests and whatnot does not make you a great driver. And ALL of us know exactly what I mean by that.

[Pandora-11]

Pandora,

If you like poetry, listen to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u67l7EaJRU

You are a sheep. You fight against us, you dislike what we do, but when truly needed like the lady in the church security team, we spring up.

There are several cases of deranged gunman who were stopped by normal people with the sheepdog mentality.


Most take the opportunity to point out my nickname at this point which is part of a different analogy


You're missing my point...I'm certainly NOT a sheep. I'm an instructor...I just don't want guns in the classroom... but I'm pro-gun. If someone came into my classroom, I'm prepared to take a bullet for one of my kids....
How does this make me a sheep? because I disagree with you?
Lovely poetry. Do you do haiku? :)

[wulf]

Sheep are at most willing to react, not be proactive. Taking a bullet is reacting, killing the mother fucker shooting unarmed people is a proactive solution.

I'd be happier if all teachers and students who had the proper knowledge/training to use guns would carry them on their person.

I fucking hate poetry to be honest, but the point is the same.

[Mental]

...I think you are going to run away and hide unarmed and scared shitless...


Sheep are at most willing to react, not be proactive. Taking a bullet is reacting, killing the mother fucker shooting unarmed people is a proactive solution...

OK, by definition, killing a guy who is shooting peaple is also a reactive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reaction)action. Proactive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proactive)would be finding a person who planning on doing that and neutralizing them.

I do believe in CCW and the right to bear arms. I like guns and have two. I do not like the NRA. But I will not be called a coward or sheep because I have decided the best way to defend my home is two big dogs and a baseball bat and becuase I choose to defend myself by other means.

Firearms are A solution, they are not THE solution. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

If you choose to carry, good. If you accept the resposibility and training to operate that device, good. I am glad you do, and I am glad you can. But equating peaple who choose not as weak does nothing to help the image that you are trying to compensate for something. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, you are re-enforcing a sterotype.

[DavidofColorado]

How is what I said in any way "wrong"?
Just because she wasn't paid doesn't mean she wasn't there in an official capacity, she was.

Also,
You might want to calm down in your statements a little if you expect anyone to take what you say seriously.
Shouting down anyone that disagrees with you is completely defeating the rationally expressed portions of your opinions.
But hey, that's your call. If you want to be dismissed as just another gun nutt, flame on.
(Just remember, David of Denver was here first.)

You shut your whore mouth!!

[DavidofColorado]

I know...it's frightening. Wish we didn't have to use our youth this way.

Its not frightening. And the youth do their duty and never once take the time to feel sorry for themselves. I can't believe that they protect the rights of those that spit in their faces and never think twice about it.

I am a little less disciplined.

[wulf]

OK, by definition, killing a guy who is shooting peaple is also a reactive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reaction)action. Proactive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proactive)would be finding a person who planning on doing that and neutralizing them.

I do believe in CCW and the right to bear arms. I like guns and have two. I do not like the NRA. But I will not be called a coward or sheep because I have decided the best way to defend my home is two big dogs and a baseball bat and becuase I choose to defend myself by other means.

Firearms are A solution, they are not THE solution. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

If you choose to carry, good. If you accept the resposibility and training to operate that device, good. I am glad you do, and I am glad you can. But equating peaple who choose not as weak does nothing to help the image that you are trying to compensate for something. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, you are re-enforcing a sterotype.True that they are both reactions.

Sometimes the best solution is to run the fuck away. None of that is a cowardly action, armed with a gun or not. I am not calling those who choose not to fight a coward, i am calling them a sheep (in an analogy). I am calling those who choose to fight in the defense of others sheepdogs (in an analogy).

Taking a bullet is more of a motherly protective instinct than a defensive reaction.

[DavidofColorado]

OK, by definition, killing a guy who is shooting peaple is also a reactive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reaction)action. Proactive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proactive)would be finding a person who planning on doing that and neutralizing them.

I do believe in CCW and the right to bear arms. I like guns and have two. I do not like the NRA. But I will not be called a coward or sheep because I have decided the best way to defend my home is two big dogs and a baseball bat and becuase I choose to defend myself by other means.

Firearms are A solution, they are not THE solution. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

If you choose to carry, good. If you accept the resposibility and training to operate that device, good. I am glad you do, and I am glad you can. But equating peaple who choose not as weak does nothing to help the image that you are trying to compensate for something. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, you are re-enforcing a sterotype.
I don't have a problem with anything that you are saying. I think you are onto something. You are not weak for not liking the NRA either. But if you don't like guns and you force others to not have guns by cheapening the right by calling us names then you are acting sheepish. I don't buy guns to add inches either, that is what my motorcycle is for.lol I knew a girl once... oh nevermind about her fetish with guns.

But which is it? Do you have 2 guns or 2 dogs a baseball bat?

Respect my rights to defend myself and I won't let you down. I think that is the jist of what all the gun owning community is saying. You shouldn't fear us anymore that you do a cop.

Being proactive according to your link means to me carrying a gun in case its needed and having it available. Not searching for trouble and neutralizing it. The police can't even do that. Better safe than sorry IMHO.

[Mental]

I own two guns. I do not use them for home defense, they are unloaded and locked away with the ammunition in a seperate location. For home defense I have a pair of very loyal dogs who will alert me long before anyone even gets to an entrance in my house. Its is a known statictic that the presnse of dogs, much less barking dogs, will deter the majority of criminals.

Once dogs are barking, I can be prepared with said bat and 911. I don't have to worry about the bat ending up lodging bullets in my neighbors home, at the range I would be using it, it will probably be lethal, and it becomes even more effective if I am in a panic. I also don't have to worry about it being stolen and ending up in the hands of criminals

I do think most gun owners want their right and want to be left alone, but I object to the inference that since I don't carry, I am sheep. This is the same analogy to the woman in the SUV. "Oh, I am so much safer becuase I am wrapped in more steel than your motorcycle."

This is somewhat true, but I have awareness, training, braking, manuverability, and acceleration in my favor. And while your SUV might be safer, your sense of superior prepardness is now a threat to me. I don't think most gun owners are that way, but there are enough.

How many peaple do you know that use a large caliber handgun for home defense? "Oh I am safer than you, I have a .357" That might be somewhat true, but that .357 is now a threat to my family sleeping three houses away. Because of my dogs, the bad guys went there instead and this guy wakes up, in a panic without all of their senses engaged and starts squeezing rounds in bad lighting. Guess where those bullets go?

Now I am not saying you guys are those kind of peaple, but the mentality of "I have a gun, I am a protector, you do not have a gun, you are sheep" creates more of them, and as educated gun enthusiasts, you know I am right.

I can understand the passion behind protecting your right to carry, but don't confuse those who do not use a firearm with those who oppose your right to do so. That is the same as them accusing you of being just like the madmen and criminals who use firearms for evil, simply becuase you legally posess the same tool.

There have been several inferences in this and other discussions that those without guns will cower and run and that we are somehow less aware of the dangers of this world. If you look into the history of all those tragic events you hope to be prepared for, there are always stories of peaple who rushed to help, displayed a willingness to protect others and showed that bravery can be had without a gun. Those folks are not sheep and they aren't weak, those just chose a different path.

[utsv650]

i wear my helmet... and do keg stands... is that a conflict of interest

but i want to get my permit to ccw

[thatmofo]

Am I the only one that feels that school is in session after reading a Mental post?

[Pandora-11]

Am I the only one that feels that school is in session after reading a Mental post?

NO..he's brilliant!:)

[rforsythe]

Do you do haiku? :)

I have my bullets.
You have many bullets too.
Who will shoot them first?

[Devaclis]

Dark and lonely on a summer's night.
Kill my landlord. Kill my landlord.
Watchdog barking. Do he bite?
Kill my landlord. Kill my landlord.
Slip in his window. Break his neck.
Then his house I start to wreck.
Got no reason. What the heck?
Kill my landlord. Kill my landlord.
C-I-L my land lord

[rforsythe]

When in doubt, call this guy...

[Pandora-11]

I have my bullets.
You have many bullets too.
Who will shoot them first?


More hidden CSC talent!!

Now try iambic pentameter!:)

[dirkterrell]

I'm prepared to take a bullet for one of my kids....


That reminds me of a Patton quote:


No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.:)

Dirk

[TFOGGuys]

I feel like I am going to hell for thinking that is funny
At least you'll be in good company....

[TFOGGuys]

:idea: :yes: :yes: Good post


Those of you against this are missing the point I think. Everyone should have the opportunity to protect themselves. It is not my job to find and stop a killer 3 buildings away because I have a CCW, this isn't vigilante justice. My job (that I assume by carrying) is to protect myself. If that protection includes the people in my class so be it, but if we're sitting there being lectured and we hear shots next door you can bet your sweet ass I'll have mine out and ready and I'll be dammed if I'm not going to do my best to kill that person the moment he opens the door.

The point of CCW on campus IS NOT about preventing /stopping mass killings, as they are exceedingly rare. It's about more personal crimes: Rape, robbery with serious assault, racially driven assault. All the university has done with it's current policy is A) place itself above state law, and b)create a fertile ground of defenseless victims for the predators to choose from. The US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no duty to protect an individual, only to protect the public at large. Thus, in the end, we are the only ones responsible for our own safety.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html

[puckstr]

Ick blap cough

Poetry....my kryptonite... hack cough

[DavidofColorado]

At least you'll be in good company....
The Devil's got you and Mental I ain't shittin ya. (Rodney Carington)

[DavidofColorado]

The point of CCW on campus IS NOT about preventing /stopping mass killings, as they are exceedingly rare. It's about more personal crimes: Rape, robbery with serious assault, racially driven assault. All the university has done with it's current policy is A) place itself above state law, and b)create a fertile ground of defenseless victims for the predators to choose from. The US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no duty to protect an individual, only to protect the public at large. Thus, in the end, we are the only ones responsible for our own safety.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html

From what I read in that article (And I could be wrong it looks like it was written by a lazy reporter) Scalia dissented from the opinion that the police do not have to protect a person and that a restraining order doesn't do squat. That poor woman lost her three children. That says a lot about the reality about the complacency of the government. You would have to catch them on a good night to get any kind of help. If you still think that the police are going to be there to protect you after reading that... your in trouble. God forbid you live in a bad neighborhood. Or a gun free (fire) zone when SHTF.
Scalia did join the second amendment decision later on though. So he doesn't want everybody to be as helpless as the 4 desenting judges do. I bet those judges have nice bodyguards and gated community. I bet they don't fear the random criminal breaking into their houses or being mugged on the street while getting gas. If they have nothing to fear nobody should.

[Nick_Ninja]

The point of CCW on campus IS NOT about:

preventing /stopping mass killings, as they are exceedingly rare.
It's about more personal crimes:

Rape
Rrobbery with serious assault
Racially driven assault.
All the university has done with it's current policy is A) place itself above state law, and b)create a fertile ground of defenseless victims for the predators to choose from.

The US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no duty to protect an individual, only to protect the public at large. Thus, in the end, we are the only ones responsible for our own safety.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html

And the latter three bullet points while heinous in nature happen at the same frequency on campus as the first bullet point. Off campus is a jungle compared to daytime campus experiences. I still see no compelling reason to pack your pistol to class.

[dirkterrell]

Ick blap cough

Poetry....my kryptonite... hack cough

Here, this will help:

http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/floridabb.jpg

Dirk

[TFOGGuys]

Here, this will help:

http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/floridabb.jpg

Dirk
Even sexier if you knew they could cut the 9 ring out of a B-29 silhouette...:yumyum:

[puckstr]

Here, this will help:

http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/floridabb.jpg

Dirk

Holy Strenght Dirk Man
I feel Alive.
http://futonreport.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/im_suretheyhavenames.jpg
http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/9842/sbb2wi7.jpg

[t_jolt]

And the latter three bullet points while heinous in nature happen at the same frequency on campus as the first bullet point. Off campus is a jungle compared to daytime campus experiences. I still see no compelling reason to pack your pistol to class.

Kinda like what Jim said...

Aside from shootings etc. I think some reasons that i believe are valid are
Walking to and from the buildings. Late night classes and being female. You cant always have someone to walk with you or escort you. if the school is in a bad area, i would carry. Cause for argument sake, one your on campus your safe. But what about to campus? I mean if i had to walk 4-5 blocks before i got to campus you better believe i would carry for that 4-5 blocks.

remember last year when 2 young black males ran on to the metro campus carry weapons from a failed robbery? They locked down the campus, but cause the rules are so set, i happened to be outside on the campus carrying equipment for the sci building. 3 laptops... and the best part is no building would let me in even after i showed my ID. I wish i was carrying then. Sure nothing happened to me. But it would have made me feel a lot more at ease. Sometimes it not for what may or may not happen. Piece of mind makes a person more calm, and when your calm you can make better decisions. but that is just my .02


Tyrel

[TFOGGuys]

And the latter three bullet points while heinous in nature happen at the same frequency on campus as the first bullet point. Off campus is a jungle compared to daytime campus experiences. I still see no compelling reason to pack your pistol to class.

My point is that by barring possession of weapons ON campus, you are creating a situation whereby any person that may have to walk that 6 blocks from campus to their off-campus housing is put at risk.They don't even have the option to "check" their weapons with the police station. Notably, there have been 6 sex assaults within that radius of CU Boulder in the last several months involving CU students. Why should they be denied the right to self defense, merely because they attend college there?

[zetaetatheta]

More hidden CSC talent!!

Now try iambic pentameter!:)

To pack or not to pack, that is the question

[T-Dub]

After reading through this, I have one question. Why is it that most of you feel a 18-22 year old college student shouldn't be able to carry to protect the lives of themselves and others, yet don't have any problem with 18 year olds carrying fully automatic rifles and grenade launchers defending the rights of all of us. We have so many boys and girls in the sandbox fighting for all of our rights to carry firearms.

As far as the criminal statistics, be careful what you think is correct, even from the FBI.

For those that think the areas that aren't allowed to carry concealed are as safe or safer than those that do, explain to me how Washington D.C. had the highest crime rate in the nation when no one was allowed to carry a firearm?

Guns are not the issue here folks, it's the people.

I personally believe we should be teaching firearms safety in our Jr. High classrooms.

I have taken the (normal parental) responsibility to teach both of my girls the safe handling and marksmanship of rifles and handguns. One is 9 and the other is 14.

[Pandora-11]

After reading through this, I have one question. Why is it that most of you feel a 18-22 year old college student shouldn't be able to carry to protect the lives of themselves and others, yet don't have any problem with 18 year olds carrying fully automatic rifles and grenade launchers defending the rights of all of us. We have so many boys and girls in the sandbox fighting for all of our rights to carry firearms.

As far as the criminal statistics, be careful what you think is correct, even from the FBI.

For those that think the areas that aren't allowed to carry concealed are as safe or safer than those that do, explain to me how Washington D.C. had the highest crime rate in the nation when no one was allowed to carry a firearm?

Guns are not the issue here folks, it's the people.

I personally believe we should be teaching firearms safety in our Jr. High classrooms.

I have taken the (normal parental) responsibility to teach both of my girls the safe handling and marksmanship of rifles and handguns. One is 9 and the other is 14.

Again...comparing the average college campus with a branch of the military is apples and oranges. Think about the discipline of each, the daily activities, the requirements, the amounts of freedom, and the job.
The atmosphere must be taken into consideration. The atmosphere of the typical college or university does not lend itself to guns...period.

[Think]

Again...comparing the average college campus with a branch of the military is apples and oranges. Think about the discipline of each, the daily activities, the requirements, the amounts of freedom, and the job.
The atmosphere must be taken into consideration. The atmosphere of the typical college or university does not lend itself to guns...period.
Although I disagree with what's in the bold, I do agree that comparing college campuses to the military is a completely different thing.

Another difference between the two is there is no supervision of these firearms on campus, which is not the case at all in the military. Each student carrying is responsible for them self, whereas in the military, you have a chain of command to make sure you're always tracking and to ensure you don't do anything stupid.

However, I'm a cadet in the Army ROTC program at CSU, and I feel a hell of a lot safer knowing that a bunch of the guys/gals around me are carrying. And I also know many other students carry as well. I am pretty confident (knock on wood), that none of them are going to go ape shit and shoot up my school. And God forbid one does, there are other people carrying that can possibly do something about it, at least we'd have a better chance than being completely defenseless.

[DavidofColorado]

Again...comparing the average college campus with a branch of the military is apples and oranges. Think about the discipline of each, the daily activities, the requirements, the amounts of freedom, and the job.
The atmosphere must be taken into consideration. The atmosphere of the typical college or university does not lend itself to guns...period.

I respectfully disagree. While my siblings and I (10 altogether) were growing up we had a good exposure to firearms and we learned how to not shoot our eyes out. We had the latest in military arms. When my brother and sister went into the marines they were shooting expert while the rest of the recruits were figuring out the charging handle (the thing that loads it). It didn't hurt them to know a thing about thing about guns. And when they are on leave or on a ship for a while they take college courses. They can also carry anywhere like the police do. A gun is just a tool to be used when its needed and hidden until then. You don't see carpenters waiving around a hammer when its not needed do you?

A college campus is the perfect place for guns. They should have a rifle team in every college like they have had in the past. I don't know when it lent itself to drugs and alchohol and complete disregard for the law but those have no place in higher education. Am I wrong?

I hope they change their rules and you can see how you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[wulf]

"I was and am still upset that more recognition has not been given to the citizens who pulled out their hunting rifles and returned the sniper's fire. The City of Austin and the State of Texas should be forever thankful and grateful to them because of the many lives they saved that day. The sniper did a lot of damage when he could fire freely, but when the armed citizens began to return fire the sniper had to take cover. He had to shoot out of the rainspouts and that limited his targets. I am grateful to the citizens because they made my job easier." --Ramiro Martinez, former Austin Police Officer and later Texas Ranger who helped bring down Charles Whitman, the University of Texas tower shooter Circa 1966

[T-Dub]

Wulf, that story is the beginning of the modern day SWAT. That is one of my favorite stories of all time. I had some family in Austin that day. Of course, it was way before my time, but they used to tell me about it like it was the day before.

[wulf]

Feb. 2, 1996: 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis walked into algebra class with a hunting rifle in his trenchcoat and opened fire, killing the teacher and two students. A third student was injured during the shooting at a junior high school in Moses Lake, Wash.
May 21, 1998: Two students were killed and more than 20 other people wounded when Kip Kinkel, 15, opened fire at Thurston High School's cafeteria in Springfield, Ore. Earlier that day, he killed his parents. He had been expelled the day before for bringing a gun to school. These two happened while i lived in WA, then i moved here. I knew kids who were at columbine.

this list only goes to 2006 and covers only k-12
http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/crime/school_violence/school_shootings.html

[zetaetatheta]

We can't even train our on military so as not to kill a fellow soldier, friendly fire. So how in the world, if the shit starts hitting the fan, everyone pulls out a gun and starts firing will this decrease casualties? All this paranoia is startling...A few incidents does not make an epidemic and the irrational thinking that has been demonstrated here makes me wonder how in the hell many of you got permits. If you guys are so gung-ho on killing someone, get your asses in Iraq. Even the thought of guns on any school grounds is insane. Hell yea, we would be safer with armed guards in every classroom, but I for one do not want to live in a police state. If anyone here is afraid to go out without a gun, carry a fucking gun, but stay away from my kids--not because your gun makes you dangerous, but because your logic does.

[Tipys]

^^^^^plus 1

[Nick_Ninja]

We can't even train our on military so as not to kill a fellow soldier, friendly fire. So how in the world, if the shit starts hitting the fan, everyone pulls out a gun and starts firing will this decrease casualties? All this paranoia is startling...A few incidents does not make an epidemic and the irrational thinking that has been demonstrated here makes me wonder how in the hell so of you got permits. If you guys are so gung-ho on killing someone, get your asses in Iraq. Even the thought of guns on any school grounds is insane. Hell yea, we would be safer with armed guards in every classroom, but I for one do not want to live in a police state. If anyone here is afraid to go out without a gun, carry a fucking gun, but stay away from my kids--not because your gun makes you dangerous, but because your logic does.

An that is exactly why this piece-of-shit lawsuit will be shit canned.

[Tipys]

Well I didnt read the 8 pages of bullshit. But its simple you have the right to carry with a permit. But even with the permit your not allowed to take guns in to police stations, Bars, and I few other places. I myself also have the RIGHT not to let you on my property if you have a gun.

[t_jolt]

We can't even train our on military so as not to kill a fellow soldier, friendly fire. So how in the world, if the shit starts hitting the fan, everyone pulls out a gun and starts firing will this decrease casualties? All this paranoia is startling...A few incidents does not make an epidemic and the irrational thinking that has been demonstrated here makes me wonder how in the hell so of you got permits. If you guys are so gung-ho on killing someone, get your asses in Iraq. Even the thought of guns on any school grounds is insane. Hell yea, we would be safer with armed guards in every classroom, but I for one do not want to live in a police state. If anyone here is afraid to go out without a gun, carry a fucking gun, but stay away from my kids--not because your gun makes you dangerous, but because your logic does.

See this is just different points of view, you think im crazy cause i carry. Ill tell you what, if everyone had a gun how much crime do you think would happen? Also i think that everyone should serve at least 2 years in the military. But hey what i can i say - Coming from another republican right?
Seriously, i understand your feelings about guns around kids. I mean really who wants there kid to get shot? no one. Now there are a few people that may want to kill to someone, but for the most part, people just want to be able to defend yourself. I have personally been robbed and had a gun pointed at me when i was younger. Needless to say, it was probably the scariest thing in my life. Had it not been for the fact that i scared the guy and he decided to run. If he stayed i probably wouldn't be here today. even if i had a gun, if he ran, im not going to shoot someone in the back. But if he had stayed and told me to walk into a room, you better believe i would've shot (if i had a gun) just cause you have a gun, most the time situations play out the same. The only time is when your life is threated.
But what im sensing is that you would rather have a fresh out of acadamy policeman in a school, then someone who spent time in the military? or perhaps not, but he goes through 500+ rounds a month at the range? I would rather have the later. welcome to the wonderful world of thought, You guys well never know when im carrying, so what does it matter anyway? You going to cry foul if you happen to see my butt, pressing against my shirt if im picking up my little one from daycare? cause here is the thing, you never know IF, or WHEN its going to happen. Some people would rather be prepared then having to hope others well save them.

Now here is a question for you, Lets say were on campus, and then a gunman does come. Going room by room, or hell just opens up in the lunch room. Chances are that you as teachers are not going to rush him. I mean really right? who wants to run towards the gunman. Most people will run away. Are you really going to be the ones running slower to be cannon fire? lets just say you are running at the back. The gunman has a clear shot at you. Then one of the rule breaking students pulls out his ccw and cripples the man, (leg shot, arm shot whatever) What would you do to that student, that possibly just saved your life, and the lives of others? probably get exspelled. right? i mean he broke the rules right? This is all a game of perceptions, and quite frankly i dont like to rely on others, to much of a probablility that your going to get let down. And as a parent, a human, an aminal of nature. Its in your being to try and survive. To protect yourself and your own. Hell if you wanted to carry a bat with you everywhere you went, then fucking do it. I dont care. At least i know when shit hits the fan, i have one more on my side trying to protect others that running. is it my job to protect you? no, but what type of human would i be if i just let myself get killed cause i was to afraid to take action?

And lastly one last comment, what the hell does being a republicain have anything to do with personal views. Lets please not go into polical bull now. Its not an insult that im republicain, in fact im proud of it. So what was the point of calling someone a republicain?

Tyrel

[Sortarican]

Not really a good example for your argument.
She was a member of the church's security staff. Not an average Joe with a CCW permit.
I don't think most people have a problem with having armed security on campus.


You said she was hired armed security which is incorrect.

Where did I say that?

[dirkterrell]

Now here is a question for you, Lets say were on campus, and then a gunman does come. Going room by room, or hell just opens up in the lunch room. Chances are that you as teachers are not going to rush him. I mean really right? who wants to run towards the gunman.

Didn't work for Suzanna Hupp's father in the Luby's massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard):


About 80 people were in the restaurant at the time. He stalked, shot, and killed 23 people and wounded another 20 before committing suicide. During the shooting, he approached Suzanna Grati Hupp and her parents. Hupp had actually brought a handgun to the Luby's Cafeteria that day, but had left it in her vehicle due to the laws in force at the time, forbidding citizens from carrying firearms. According to her later testimony in favor of Missouri's HB-1720 bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard#cite_note-0)and in general[/URL] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard#cite_note-1), after she realized that her firearm was not in her purse, but "a hundred feet away in [her] car", her father charged at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him, only to be gunned down; a short time later, her mother was also shot and killed. (Hupp later expressed regret for abiding by the law in question by leaving her firearm in her car, rather than keeping it on her person[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard#cite_note-3"].)

And as for all these dire predictions about immature 21 year olds getting drunk and shooting up the campus, I don't recall hearing about such things in the last couple of years at the University of Utah where students are not denied the right to self-defense. People made the same sorts of arguments about CCW permits in general when "shall issue" was being considered. We were supposed to have streets filled with road-rage-fueled wild west shootouts. Didn't happen.

Dirk

[zetaetatheta]

See this is just different points of view, you think im crazy cause i carry. Ill tell you what, if everyone had a gun how much crime do you think would happen? Also i think that everyone should serve at least 2 years in the military. But hey what i can i say - Coming from another republican right?
Seriously, i understand your feelings about guns around kids. I mean really who wants there kid to get shot? no one. Now there are a few people that may want to kill to someone, but for the most part, people just want to be able to defend yourself. I have personally been robbed and had a gun pointed at me when i was younger. Needless to say, it was probably the scariest thing in my life. Had it not been for the fact that i scared the guy and he decided to run. If he stayed i probably wouldn't be here today. even if i had a gun, if he ran, im not going to shoot someone in the back. But if he had stayed and told me to walk into a room, you better believe i would've shot (if i had a gun) just cause you have a gun, most the time situations play out the same. The only time is when your life is threated.
But what im sensing is that you would rather have a fresh out of acadamy policeman in a school, then someone who spent time in the military? or perhaps not, but he goes through 500+ rounds a month at the range? I would rather have the later. welcome to the wonderful world of thought, You guys well never know when im carrying, so what does it matter anyway? You going to cry foul if you happen to see my butt, pressing against my shirt if im picking up my little one from daycare? cause here is the thing, you never know IF, or WHEN its going to happen. Some people would rather be prepared then having to hope others well save them.

Now here is a question for you, Lets say were on campus, and then a gunman does come. Going room by room, or hell just opens up in the lunch room. Chances are that you as teachers are not going to rush him. I mean really right? who wants to run towards the gunman. Most people will run away. Are you really going to be the ones running slower to be cannon fire? lets just say you are running at the back. The gunman has a clear shot at you. Then one of the rule breaking students pulls out his ccw and cripples the man, (leg shot, arm shot whatever) What would you do to that student, that possibly just saved your life, and the lives of others? probably get exspelled. right? i mean he broke the rules right? This is all a game of perceptions, and quite frankly i dont like to rely on others, to much of a probablility that your going to get let down. And as a parent, a human, an aminal of nature. Its in your being to try and survive. To protect yourself and your own. Hell if you wanted to carry a bat with you everywhere you went, then fucking do it. I dont care. At least i know when shit hits the fan, i have one more on my side trying to protect others that running. is it my job to protect you? no, but what type of human would i be if i just let myself get killed cause i was to afraid to take action?

And lastly one last comment, what the hell does being a republicain have anything to do with personal views. Lets please not go into polical bull now. Its not an insult that im republicain, in fact im proud of it. So what was the point of calling someone a republicain?

Tyrel
We can disagree, but if you bring a gun on my campus and it is known, you will go to jail and rightly so.
I am a teacher and I know for a fact I would rush a shooter and I have several kids that would do the same and know many teachers that would do anything to protect their students--anything.

BTW who said anything about being a republican.

[DavidofColorado]

We can't even train our on military so as not to kill a fellow soldier, friendly fire. So how in the world, if the shit starts hitting the fan, everyone pulls out a gun and starts firing will this decrease casualties? All this paranoia is startling...A few incidents does not make an epidemic and the irrational thinking that has been demonstrated here makes me wonder how in the hell many of you got permits. If you guys are so gung-ho on killing someone, get your asses in Iraq. Even the thought of guns on any school grounds is insane. Hell yea, we would be safer with armed guards in every classroom, but I for one do not want to live in a police state. If anyone here is afraid to go out without a gun, carry a fucking gun, but stay away from my kids--not because your gun makes you dangerous, but because your logic does.
Every one is gun ho if they are not a as scared of guns as you. Nice way to show that you have no idea whats going on.

Even more rare than school shootings is police station shootings. Why because a criminal doesn't want to shoot up a place that isn't easy for him. But I guess we are all not as enlighted as someone like you that doesn't know shit about guns and is very scared of the idea of being around them. Oh but you said you do and so I guess we should just believe you then? You said think of the children. I am that's why I don't want them hurt by a crazyman itching to do someone harm. So I support them changing the rules for all the children (your words) ages 18-44.

[Nick_Ninja]

Every one is gun ho if they are not a as scared of guns as you. Nice way to show that you have no idea whats going on.

Even more rare than school shootings is police station shootings. Why because a criminal doesn't want to shoot up a place that isn't easy for him. But I guess we are all not as enlighted as someone like you that doesn't know shit about guns and is very scared of the idea of being around them. Oh but you said you do and so I guess we should just believe you then? You said think of the children. I am that's why I don't want them hurt by a crazyman itching to do someone harm. So I support them changing the rules for all the children (your words) ages 18-44.

God :roll:

[t_jolt]

We can disagree, but if you bring a gun on my campus and it is known, you will go to jail and rightly so.
I am a teacher and I know for a fact I would rush a shooter and I have several kids that would do the same and know many teachers that would do anything to protect their students--anything.

BTW who said anything about being a republican.

Im glad you think so. I hope your right. but when stress levels hit that high, people change. Lets all of us hope your right.

It was posted earlier in discussion.

[Pandora-11]

Everyone is coming from a different perspective here and that obviously forms our views. If you notice, the majority of the posters here who are actually in a classroom or an authority figure on a campus are opposed to guns on campus....the political party doesn't seem to be the issue here as we have Repubs and Libs on some of the same sides.

[DavidofColorado]

Well I didnt read the 8 pages of bullshit. But its simple you have the right to carry with a permit. But even with the permit your not allowed to take guns in to police stations, Bars, and I few other places. I myself also have the RIGHT not to let you on my property if you have a gun.

Tipys NOOO! You gave into their fear mongering. The terrorists have won pack your shit we're leaving. Game over man, game over.

[DavidofColorado]

God :roll:
No but thanks for the comparison.

I forget Nick Ninja. Did you have a rational well thought out reason for oposing the rule change. Or are you just afraid of change?

[DavidofColorado]

Didn't work for Suzanna Hupp's father in the Luby's massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard):

There is another sad story about gun control failing. Every gun grabbing, antigun dick head out there should bow down and let her kick them in the ass. No one should have to endure what she went thru that day.



And as for all these dire predictions about immature 21 year olds getting drunk and shooting up the campus, I don't recall hearing about such things in the last couple of years at the University of Utah where students are not denied the right to self-defense. People made the same sorts of arguments about CCW permits in general when "shall issue" was being considered. We were supposed to have streets filled with road-rage-fueled wild west shootouts. Didn't happen.

Dirk

It won't happen either. Law abiding people just don't do that. I think that is what the people against this rule change are missing.

p.s. I wish there was an emoticon that said "I am with Genius".

Let me say I am sorry too. I don't mean to get rattled and take it out on everybody that disagrees with me. We have a difference of opinion and we should leave it at that. The mentality of being victim is something that I don't want. Some use it as their master status and others seek out a better status. I don't want to be known for the worst thing that has ever happened to me. I hope you wouldn't want that either.

[Tipys]

Tipys NOOO! You gave into their fear mongering. The terrorists have won pack your shit we're leaving. Game over man, game over.

Yup I gave in because I believe in the right to bear arms. But yet understand that some places will not lett me take a gun in the place. Because that's there chocie and they don't want them there. For me to keep my right I have to respect the rights of others.

[Think]

I am a teacher and I know for a fact I would rush a shooter and I have several kids that would do the same and know many teachers that would do anything to protect their students--anything.
I don't mean to be an ass, but how do you know for sure what you, or anyone else would do that in that situation?

How many times have you heard of anyone rushing a shooter in any school shooting or otherwise that was unarmed?

From what I remember, the heroes in the VT and Columbine shootings were teachers who helped get many kids to safety while getting shot in the process, but they did not rush the shooter.

I mean I hope to God that in a situation like that I would try to do SOMETHING, but when the shit actually hits the fan, I honestly don't know what I would do. If the God forbid the situation were to present itself and you or one of your students did rush the shooter, then I'll give you some major props, but until then, I don't think I can depend on someone saying they'd definitely rush a shooter to make me feel more at ease.

[rforsythe]

...

[zetaetatheta]

Every one is gun ho if they are not a as scared of guns as you. Nice way to show that you have no idea whats going on.

Even more rare than school shootings is police station shootings. Why because a criminal doesn't want to shoot up a place that isn't easy for him. But I guess we are all not as enlighted as someone like you that doesn't know shit about guns and is very scared of the idea of being around them. Oh but you said you do and so I guess we should just believe you then? You said think of the children. I am that's why I don't want them hurt by a crazyman itching to do someone harm. So I support them changing the rules for all the children (your words) ages 18-44.
Not scared of guns just the illogical idologs that need a penis extension to feel safe in the world.

[Pandora-11]

Not scared of guns just the illogical idologs that need a penis extension to feel safe in the world.


Yikes! That's gonna inflame a few!:)

[puckstr]

Not scared of guns just the illogical idologs that need a penis extension to feel safe in the world.


Well bravo for you Superman

[PROFLYER]

Again...comparing the average college campus with a branch of the military is apples and oranges. Think about the discipline of each, the daily activities, the requirements, the amounts of freedom, and the job.
The atmosphere must be taken into consideration. The atmosphere of the typical college or university does not lend itself to guns...period.
does the bold and the period make your statement gospel?

Hardly, while you can't compare the two effectively, you touched on something very important. Discipline. It takes that and more to have a CCW.

I thought you had a daughter at CU? I suggest you have a chat over xmas break about personal protection. The rash of assaults around that campus is staggering, perhaps you should hire her a personal guard, since it's apparent that "college kids" aren't smart, disciplined or focused enough to make the decision and take the necessary precautions to protect themselves.

[Pandora-11]

does the bold and the period make your statement gospel?

Hardly, while you can't compare the two effectively, you touched on something very important. Discipline. It takes that and more to have a CCW.

I thought you had a daughter at CU? I suggest you have a chat over xmas break about personal protection. The rash of assaults around that campus is staggering, perhaps you should hire her a personal guard, since it's apparent that "college kids" aren't smart, disciplined or focused enough to make the decision and take the necessary precautions to protect themselves.

Gospel for me...who is one actually in the trenches. You decide for yourself.
Have had that discussion with her and she carries a type of protective device. She also knows how to take down a guy. I carry one as well. It does scare me to death that she's out there on her own and even more so that she's a beautiful girl with guys dropping at her feet. I don't want to be stupid about it but I have to trust
in a higher order here without being naive.

[PROFLYER]

Not scared of guns just the illogical idologs that need a penis extension to feel safe in the world.
You can't be serious? Because some of us choose to protect ourselves its now a cock extension?

I could go on but it's obviously not worth it. I hope we meet someday.

[DavidofColorado]

Not scared of guns just the illogical idologs that need a penis extension to feel safe in the world.
I'll show you mine if you show me yours. We'll put this baby to bed.

[PROFLYER]

Gospel for me...who is one actually in the trenches. You decide for yourself.
Have had that discussion with her and she carries a type of protective device. She also knows how to take down a guy. I carry one as well. It does scare me to death that she's out there on her own and even more so that she's a beautiful girl with guys dropping at her feet. I don't want to be stupid about it but I have to trust
in a higher order here without being naive.

Cool, give her my number. If she's that hot I'll gladly wander around with her, I'll even buy dinner.

I'm 6' 235lbs@ 11%bf with an 8-0 professional MMA record. Plus I carry a gun. I've beat the living hell out of too many people, I have scars from being stabbed while bouncing in a bar and I'm positive your daughter couldn't take me down if she wanted to and if I wanted a piece I could take it. Even though I can pretty much consider myself a professional badass I still carry. Why? Because I'm tired of hitting people. It's easier to get up, leave the dinner table, leave the bar, give up the parking spot etc. etc. If the attacker does, however, decide to follow it could very well be the last poor decision they ever make. I have learned that I no longer need to assault people to protect myself. If I feel like my life (or your daughters even) was in danger I can use deadly force. That's effective protection whether you like it or not.

[DavidofColorado]

Gospel for me...who is one actually in the trenches. You decide for yourself.
Have had that discussion with her and she carries a type of protective device. She also knows how to take down a guy. I carry one as well. It does scare me to death that she's out there on her own and even more so that she's a beautiful girl with guys dropping at her feet. I don't want to be stupid about it but I have to trust
in a higher order here without being naive.

Tell your daughter nothing. That always has worked in the past.:rolleyes:

But if you do slip and tell her something that might save her life... tell her this.
If the S really HTF run like forest gump and don't stop until your are far away from trouble.
If Chuck Norris is around get behind him, because when Chuck Norris's shit hits the fan, the fan breaks.

[PROFLYER]

Tell your daughter nothing. That always has worked in the past.

But if you do slip and tell her something that might save her life... tell her this.
If the S really HTF run like forest gump and don't stop until your are far away from trouble.
If Chuck Norris is around get behind him, because when Chuck Norris's shit hits the fan, the fan breaks.
:pointlaugh::pointlaugh:

Don't forget that he's also not afraid of the dark, the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris!

[Pandora-11]

Not scared of guns just the illogical idologs that need a penis extension to feel safe in the world.



I'll show you mine if you show me yours. We'll put this baby to bed.


Can I be the judge? Oops..sorry..blush...blush...that was bad.:oops:

[DavidofColorado]

Its only 2 inches... from the floor!!

[zetaetatheta]

I'll show you mine if you show me yours. We'll put this baby to bed.
How about a certificate of authenticity:hump::
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll78/manitoumike/hand.jpg

[Pandora-11]

How about a certificate of authenticity:hump::
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll78/manitoumike/hand.jpg

OK...so far...you win.

[zetaetatheta]

Can I be the judge? Oops..sorry..blush...blush...that was bad.:oops:
I would feel better with this matter in unbiased hands:yumyum:

[Pandora-11]

I would feel better with this matter in unbiased hands:yumyum:


EXCUSE ME?:crazy:

[Pandora-11]

Are you actually suggesting I'd be biased or are you just looking for hands?

ok..he wins....He's a repub....you're a lib.....He wins.

[dirkterrell]

Not scared of guns just the illogical idologs that need a penis extension to feel safe in the world.

It occurred to me on the way home that there are a lot of misconceptions about why people get a CCW permit. I can only speak with certainty about myself but your description above doesn't apply to a single person of the several I know who carry. I grew up around guns, comfortable with them because I was taught very early about their destructive power and when it was appropriate to use them. To me, a gun is simply a tool to be used in certain situations where I or others could be killed or seriously injured because somone else is breaking the law and the police can't respond in time. That's it.

I'm not paranoid. I'm not illogical. Having my gun doesn't make me "feel safe in the world." I honestly don't think that much about it when I am carrying. It simply gives me an option to deal with a situation that might arise. I don't walk around just itching for someone to do something so I can blow them away. Hell, I catch spiders and put them outside rather than just smashing them. :) But if someone decides that they are going to take my life or someone else's life for whatever reason, I will have the ability to respond with a weapon if the escalation of force requires it.

Dirk

[Nick_Ninja]

I just spoke with an officer from the CUPD. Almost ALL of their force is against having CCW enabled students on their turf. Just another layer of threat to deal with.

[dirkterrell]

From Suzanna Hupp's testimony in support of CCW permits in Missouri:



"Everybody in here knows, I think, what happened in Luby's - but, in a nutshell - uh - ya know, we all think - and I know you do - (indicating a committee member), we all think that crime happens when you're walking down a dark alley- I've never been involved in any crimes - that's never happened in my life - I was with my parents - AT NOON, on a bright sunny day, in Luby's, with a hundred and forty other people, OK. In a town that's not a high crime town."



"This guy - . drives through the window - . and starts shooting - This guy has got no history - nothing." "Well, my father and I immediatly put the table up in front of us and we all got down behind it, and I - ya know your first opinion is - is this guy robbing this place - what's the deal - what's - what's going on, and then you're realizing that all he's doing is simply shooting people."


"As he was working his way toward us, I reached for my purse, thinking - Hah! - I've got this son of a gun - OK? Now, understand, I know what a lot of people think, - they think, - 'Oh, my God, then you would have had a gunfight and then more people would have been killed.' Unhunh, no, - I was down on the floor - this guy is standing up - everybody else is down on the floor - I had a perfect shot at him - it would have been clear, I had a place to prop my hand - the guy was not even aware of what we were doing - I'm not saying that I could have saved anybody in there, but I would have had a chance - that's all I'm saying is that I would have had a chance - " "My gun wasn't even in my purse - it was a hundred feet away in my car!"


"My father was saying, 'I gotta do something!, I gotta do something! This guy's going to kill everyone in here!' So I wasn't able to hold him down and when my father thought he had a chance - he went at the guy! The guy turned, shot him in the chest and my dad went down."


"Shortly - it made the guy change directions and he went off to my left. Shortly after that somebody broke out a window in back and I saw a chance to get out - I grabbed my mother and tried to get her up - hoped she was following me - and I grew wings on my feet. As it turned out, my mother crawled over to my father and stayed with him - and this - I'm trying to think of a civil word to use - this person - uh - eventually came around and shot her also - OK"

"Let me make a point here, in case this isn't becoming extremely clear. My state has gun control laws. It did not keep Hennard from coming in and killing everybody! What it did do, was keep me from protecting my family!


Dirk

[Nick_Ninja]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. When shit hits the fan and the bullets start flyin' it ain't gonna mean shit if you have the ability to fire off a round or not.

[puckstr]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. When shit hits the fan and the bullets start flyin' it ain't gonna mean shit if you have the ability to fire off a round or not.

whatever:jerkoff:

[Devaclis]

I disagree. A trained person with a firearm and opportunity would have the ability to end situations like the one in Dirks article. I have seen it in person. It is all flluffy puppies and strawberry kisses to people who oppose CCW and who have never been in situations were a person with a CCW and the training ended a deadly situation. It is just theory. Something you can talk about, but not with any degree of expertise. I cannot argue with anyones beliefs, but I can say that my beliefs are based on experience.

[Devaclis]

Hey, did you guys see that? I disagreed with the Ninja and did not call him names or insult him!! Wow!!!! /you guys all suck and are smelly.

[Nick_Ninja]

Hey, did you guys see that? I disagreed with the Ninja and did not call him names or insult him!! Wow!!!! /you guys all suck and are smelly.

Common!!! --- you want to sling that shit --- you know you do! Then lick your fingers :crazy: Like insults really make me all butt ass hurt :D

[puckstr]

Hey, did you guys see that? I disagreed with the Ninja and did not call him names or insult him!! Wow!!!! /you guys all suck and are smelly.


I am sorry I was busy on gunbroker.com (http://www.gunbroker.com) looking for my new penis extension

[Devaclis]

Yeah, the ladies like a .50 cal. My cock is so small I own 3 of 'em!!! Too bad they don't fit in my Ferrari or my jet pack.


/fuckin' idiots everywhere.

[dirkterrell]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. When shit hits the fan and the bullets start flyin' it ain't gonna mean shit if you have the ability to fire off a round or not.


In 1985, just eight states had the most liberal right-to-carry laws – laws that automatically grant permits once applicants pass a criminal background check, pay their fees and, when required, complete a training class. Today the total is 37 states. Bill Landes and I have examined all the multiple-victim public shootings with two or more victims in the United States from 1977 to 1999 and found that when states passed right-to-carry laws, these attacks fell by 60 percent. Deaths and injuries from multiple-victim public shootings fell on average by 78 percent.


No other gun-control law had any beneficial effect. Indeed, right-to-carry laws were the only policy that consistently reduced these attacks.



To the extent attacks still occurred in right-to-carry states, they overwhelmingly happened in the special places within those states where concealed handguns were banned. The impact of right-to-carry laws on multiple-victim public shootings is much larger than on other crimes, for a simple reason. Increasing the probability that someone will be able to protect themselves, increases deterrence. Even when any single person might have a small probability of having a concealed handgun, the probability that at least someone will is very high.


These restrictions on guns in schools weren't always in place. Prior to the end of 1995 when the Safe School Zone Act was enacted, virtually all the states that allowed citizens, whether they be teacher or principles or parents, to carry concealed handguns let them carry them on school grounds. Even Minnesota used to allow this.



Some have expressed fears over letting concealed permit holders carry guns on school campuses, but over all the years that permitted guns were allowed on school property there is no evidence that these guns were used improperly or caused any accidents.
Source (http://www.lewrockwell.com/lott/lott38.html)

Dirk

[Pandora-11]

Caution: Small thread-jack for just a moment.
Nick Ninja,
Can you get my daughter a date with Scotty McKnight?
(She's in Chi O along with his girlfriend, but oh well.)

[zetaetatheta]

Caution: Small thread-jack for just a moment.
Nick Ninja,
Can you get my daughter a date with Scotty McKnight?
(She's in Chi O along with his girlfriend, but oh well.)
Isn't it illegal to pimp?

[dirkterrell]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. When shit hits the fan and the bullets start flyin' it ain't gonna mean shit if you have the ability to fire off a round or not.


There was a shootout in a Manchester bar early yesterday, leaving one man wounded - and under arrest.



It started when Eliezer Encarnacion, 26, of Manchester, and another man were thrown out of the Uptown Tavern just before 1 a.m., following a confrontation with employees, the police said.



Encarnacion pulled a gun and fired several shots at tavern employees, the police said. A customer who saw the shooting then pulled his own gun and wounded the gunman.



Encarnacion ran off, wounded in the arm and leg, but the police found him a short while later. After surgery, he was recovering and awaiting a court date on attempted assault and firearms charges. His companion was arrested on a probation violation.



No one else in the bar was hurt.


Source (http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070415/REPOSITORY/704150396)

[Pandora-11]

Isn't it illegal to pimp?



You hush....go measure something!

[zetaetatheta]

You hush....go measure something!

Ota

[PROFLYER]

Caution: Small thread-jack for just a moment.
Nick Ninja,
Can you get my daughter a date with Scotty McKnight?
(She's in Chi O along with his girlfriend, but oh well.)

Dude, I already told you I'd take the chi ho (that's what we pikes call them) out for a seafood dinner and never call her again.

Found my next penis extension.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=118288011

[puckstr]

nice

my next baby
so before there is any 9mm flame...
it is all about "shot placement"
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/118707000/118707709/pix586579109.jpg

[Pandora-11]

Dude, I already told you I'd take the chi ho (that's what we pikes call them) out for a seafood dinner and never call her again.

Found my next penis extension.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=118288011

NO you won't. She's choosy....she won't call YOU!:)
I'm not a dude.
Ill ask her about Pikes. Are you there now?

(The fact she has a boyfriend might be a minor issue with her.)

[Devaclis]

If it is NOT a minor issue then get here CCW and send her off to CSU. That is where all of the irresponsible, immoral teens go :)

[McVaaahhh]

If it is NOT a minor issue then get here CCW and send her off to CSU. That is where all of the irresponsible, immoral teens go :)

I can vouch for that. :lol:

[TFOGGuys]

In my view, a CCW permit holder with a defensive firearm is a lot like a volunteer fireman with a fire extinguisher. Your college classroom would be a lot safer with a trained fire fighter in it, (much like a police officer), but that's impractical on a number of levels. Would you rather have a volunteer fireman with a fire extinguisher do his best to slow or stop the destruction, or wait the 3-5 minutes for the "professionals" to arrive?

Also, no one has addressed the issue of compromised self defense off campus as a result of University regs, which affect even storing a firearm in a locked vault in your locked vehicle. If I were to drive on campus, even with an unloaded firearm in a locked, inaccessible enclosure, I would technically be in violation of CU policy.

[Rhino]

Dude, I already told you I'd take the chi ho (that's what we pikes call them) out for a seafood dinner and never call her again.

Found my next penis extension.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=118288011


http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10571


Buy local, save money, and ABUSE the "gun show loophole". It makes liberals cry.:devil2:

[Think]

If it is NOT a minor issue then get here CCW and send her off to CSU. That is where all of the irresponsible, immoral teens go :)
Amen.

[The Black Knight]

Well, after being away for awhile I happened to come back and stumble on this thread. Looks like a great heated discussion. So I'll throw my .02 cents in.

After many sessions at the shooting range, speaking with law enforcement either retired or active. Reading article after article on self-defense and further pursuit of more training I've come to this conclusion about a lot of situations and being CCW.

Here's my point of view. I got my CCW or CHP for my "OWN' personal protection. Meaning #1 comes first? Yep, I said it. I come first before anyone else's safety and here's why. I choose to exercise my Second Amendment right to protect myself and family. I firmly believe that it's also the duty of "EVERY" other citizen in America to worry about their own safety.

While some may choose to arm themselves(because they have that right) others may feel the need to rely on local law enforcement(for whatever reason).

I'll be straight forward, if I'm ever in a situation(any kind) that requires me to pull my firearm. I'm going to make sure myself is safe first(because I have to be in order to control my firearm). Second I'll make sure my family or friends with me are safe. After all that comes the general public.

I hate to sound callous and cold but the safety of complete strangers does not rank high on my list of priorities when it comes to a situation of violence where I have to pull my firearm. That doesn't mean I don't care about them at all, just means they come very far down the list.

Why do I believe that way? Well because I also believe that as it's my duty to protect myself and family. It's also your(populace) duty to protect yourselves as well. I'm not "YOUR" personal bodyguard nor am I going to go out of my way to endanger or compromise myself and my family over someone else. If you want to stay safe then either carry a gun yourself or hide behind the local law enforcement agent when he or she arrives roughly 8 to 13 minutes later.

Main reason I believe this way anymore is because for one I don't want to get sued by some whiny person that I had to help defend and then they being either mad because I have a concealed gun or anti-gun decide to sue me because of it. I also don't want to bring un-necessary heartache and grief upon myself and my family.

If I have to draw my gun in self-defense and then face the consequences afterwards. I'm going to be doing it to protect myself or family and friends and knowing that I'll be in the clear with them. I don't know what's up some strangers sleeve as far as the aftermath. They may get a wild hair and decide to sue. That's not something I want.

In closing, just because I focus on myself and my family first doesn't mean I won't help a fellow citizen. If I see a woman in the process of a rape for example I'll step in. But for instance like the mall shooting in Omaha. I'll make sure my family and friends are in the clear and out of harms way, before I step in to help total strangers. I'm sorry to say that but it's just the nature of the beast in todays world.

Finally, as far as College campus CCW or CHP is concerned. I'm kind of divided on this issue. For one I think most college kids are too immature and dumb to realize what a firearm can do. However, I believe once you've reached the minimum age(21 in most states) to legally obtain a CCW then you should be allowed to go where you please. Mainly because you've show competence in obtaining your CCW. So the law should trust you, just as we have to trust law enforcement.

I think one of the best things Universities and colleges can do are hire "REAL" security. Not these rent-a-state cops. And when I say real security, I'm talking Black Water types. Someone that is going to take charge of the situtation and has the resources(read: armed) to handle it. I think these institutions owe it to their students and families. If people are willing to drop crazy coin in order to go to a place of higher education. Then provide some damn service in all fields. And I'm not talking just a few guys, I'm talking many armed guards posted throughout the schools. If students or parents piss and moan about gun carrying guards, then tough. It's either allow people to protect themselves or provide more then adequent security to handle any situation.

P.S.
Your safety is up to you and you alone. I ain't your damn daddy or bodyguard and I'm surely not going to go out of my way to save your ass because you're unarmed. That's your responsibility and not the duty of your fellow citizens who are CCW or CHP. If a CCW or CHP can help it's a good thing but don't rely or put the burden on us to get you out of a jam.

[PROFLYER]

NO you won't. She's choosy....she won't call YOU!:)
I'm not a dude.
Ill ask her about Pikes. Are you there now?

(The fact she has a boyfriend might be a minor issue with her.)

Yeah, I guess he and I could piss for it. Gimme her number, I'll holler at her. No I'm not there, I'm done with school (MBA almost too) and have a JOB :) Fix us up, I'll let you ride my 08 if you let me ride her....er your.....nevermind :banghead:

And you should hope she hasn't been to the pike house, if so you might want to disinfect her before she's allowed in the door for xmas, that place is nasty all of a sudden! My lil bro is a soph there now and it's bad, really bad! They're the "cool" frat though on campus.

If you're not a dude, you must be her mother?

[PROFLYER]

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10571


Buy local, save money, and ABUSE the "gun show loophole". It makes liberals cry.:devil2:

Rhino, you're now on my really cool people list. :)