turn entrance technique

[drago52]

Ok, quick question here. Seems simple enough, but it gets complicated once you think about all the steps involved.

Here's the situation: You're speeding down the back straight at IMI getting way up in the higher revs on the bike and you've gotta get hard on the brakes for that sharp right hander.

What is the best way to do this? I'm usually up at around 12k rpm near redline, then brake hard and the revs go down to around 4-5k into and through the turn. This means I come out of the turn low on the powerband. Is is possible to shift while sliding a knee? I wouldn't think you'd want to. I've tried shifting while braking, but then the back end gets all squirrily.

I've heard you need to "blip" the throttle while downshifting, but I don't see how that's possible to grab the front brake, pull in clutch and shift, blip throttle to keep the revs high while still decellerating, let out the clutch, and all at the same time slide your right foot back to put the ball of your foot on the peg so that you can get a good lean angle through the turn.

Any tips or techniques on how to do this? Is there something I'm missing? Anyone?

[TFOGGuys]

Ok, quick question here. Seems simple enough, but it gets complicated once you think about all the steps involved.

Here's the situation: You're speeding down the back straight at IMI getting way up in the higher revs on the bike and you've gotta get hard on the brakes for that sharp right hander.

What is the best way to do this? I'm usually up at around 12k rpm near redline, then brake hard and the revs go down to around 4-5k into and through the turn. This means I come out of the turn low on the powerband. Is is possible to shift while sliding a knee? I wouldn't think you'd want to. I've tried shifting while braking, but then the back end gets all squirrily.

I've heard you need to "blip" the throttle while downshifting, but I don't see how that's possible to grab the front brake, pull in clutch and shift, blip throttle to keep the revs high while still decellerating, let out the clutch, and all at the same time slide your right foot back to put the ball of your foot on the peg so that you can get a good lean angle through the turn.

Any tips or techniques on how to do this? Is there something I'm missing? Anyone?
Try to separate the steps. First, brake, then blip throttle and make your downshifts, while keeping constant braking pressure. Set your entrance speed early, set your throttle to settle the chassis, then turn in. Get on the gas early for best drive. Start slowly, keep it smooth, and speed will come.

[Spiderman]

You can also try downshifting first, then braking. To prevent the rear end from getting
"squirrelly", release the clutch a little slower than you normally would (once you've hit the friction point). The slower clutch release should be pretty easy to do while you're braking with the other hand. Like Jim said, set your entry speed early so the chassis is settled and the bike will be ready to turn in. 8)

[RCStylin']

Yeah...you blip the throttle while braking. You'll get used to it. I learned to do it on my old RC51, which was a beast. If I didn't blip the throttle on that one, it turned into a trencher :crazy: Like the ones that they use to put in sprinkler plumbing.

I have a slipper clutch now...makes it MUCH easier.

[drago52]

Ok, so if I break it down, do I have this right?

1- release throttle
2- apply front and rear brake
3- pull in clutch (while still braking)
4- downshift (while still braking)
5- blip throttle and ease out clutch while still braking (this one seems difficult)
6- start leaning into turn and modulate throttle as required

I watch the motogp and superbike racers and it looks like they are braking while leaning into a lot of the turns. Are they typically downshifting and "blipping" through the initial part of the turns? Also, any thoughts on front and rear braking? I've heard a lot of riders only use the front.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Vehicle 1]

More on the bliping part,

I have noticed that I can brake with my middle finger only:321: and blip the throttle way easier that way. Compared to when I commit two fingers to the lever; sometimes having the bliping interfere with the braking, specially when getting tired or sloppy.
One thing is for sure, if you do, try this with caution just in case your brakes have a tendency to fade throughout a session... one finger may not do the job after a while. And I am sure it depends on the bike's braking strength. I do this with both my bikes, works for me.
Also, try getting your hands a little further out towards the end of the bars so there is more room between the controls and your thumb and index fingers. Helps me with the "wrist angle" I guess...:)
I use the rear brake only out in the street, at the track I don't; it got me in trouble a couple times when accidentally locking the rear tire.
$.02

[chad23]

I say just buy a twin and you don't have the low rpm problem.

If I was to put it in an order it would go like this
1 Downshift to get into the right gear for the turn (which will also start the speed adjustment) Better to upset the suspension in the straight than in a turn
2 Brake to get to your desired speed for turn
3 Start rolling on throttle to exit turn

[*KEN*]

Ok, so if I break it down, do I have this right?

1- release throttle
2- apply front and rear brake
3- pull in clutch (while still braking)
4- downshift (while still braking)
5- blip throttle and ease out clutch while still braking (this one seems difficult)
6- start leaning into turn and modulate throttle as required

I watch the motogp and superbike racers and it looks like they are braking while leaning into a lot of the turns. Are they typically downshifting and "blipping" through the initial part of the turns? Also, any thoughts on front and rear braking? I've heard a lot of riders only use the front.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sounds like you've got it! Yes, #5 is the hardest part.

I think what Jim was suggesting was that you might want to try to separate the steps even more until you get used to blipping the throttle. This would allow you to master the blipping/clutch-releasing alone (without braking at the same time), since it can take some practice to get right. If you separate the steps, it will require you to start braking earlier than you're used to so that you can get down to turn-in speed earlier and allow time to downshift
1- release throttle (earlier than you normally do)
2- apply front and rear brake (earlier than you normally do)
2b- release brakes ()
3- pull in clutch (not braking)
4- downshift (not braking)
5- blip throttle and ease out clutch (not braking)
6- start leaning into turn and modulate throttle as required

Racers typically get all shifting done before turn-in and continue braking into the turn (trailbraking). Trailbraking might be a separate topic. Some use both the front and rear brakes.

[rybo]

Racers typically get all shifting done before turn-in and continue braking into the turn (trailbraking). Trailbraking might be a separate topic. Some use both the front and rear brakes.

Trailbraking is what you are seeing in the video of the racers going around corners. The bike turns best when the front suspension is compressed to some degree.

Here is a picture of ben bostrom mid corner, look how compressed the front end is.

This is done by using the front brake in decreasing amounts to (typically) the apex of the corner. Maximum braking still happens when the bike is straight up and down, with decreasing brake pressure to the apex (so 100% straight up and down, 70% as you start the turn in, 20% as you increase lean angle 2% at max lean or apex) then start to stand it back up and get on the gas. At this point you'll want to be at at least neutral throttle (neither accelerating or decelerating).

Hope that helps. Blipping the throttle and matching revs is a valuable skill for sure. Practice at SLOWER than your usual pace. When learning a new skill slow down and master the skill first, then start adding speed back into the equation. If you've done it right your lap times will go down, and you'll FEEL like you're going the same speed.

[asp_125]

+1 to what everyone else says about breaking down the steps. It also sounds like you're leaving things until the very last moment and then trying to do them all at once. Start out by braking earlier than you're doing now, get the sequence down, and then as you get smoother at it, bring that braking zone back deeper. Get it all done in a straight line first, before trying to trail brake.

[drago52]

thanks everyone, great feedback! Now I just need to get back out to IMI and work on my skills.

[SaShWhO]

wax on, wax off !
brush up, brush down!
he who catch fly with chop stick can do anything.

basically~~~practice, practice, practice:)

[Slo]

+1 on what Rybo and Ken added...


but I don't see how that's possible to grab the front brake, pull in clutch and shift, blip throttle to keep the revs high while still decellerating, let out the clutch, and all at the same time slide your right foot back to put the ball of your foot on the peg so that you can get a good lean angle through the turn.

Just for me, the ball of my right foot is never off the peg. And you'll want to practice downshifting on deceleration. It will seem akward at first to pull clutch in and get off the throttle, then downshift and blip while letting out the clutch. But once your used to it, it will seem second nature, the smoother you get it down, the less you will unsettle the bike.

[dirkterrell]

5- blip throttle and ease out clutch while still braking (this one seems difficult)


One thing to add to what the others have said: this one is a lot easier if you're not putting a lot of weight on your hands, which is easy to do when you're braking. Make sure you are gripping the tank with your legs so that your arms aren't having to support a lot of weight. That will make it much easier to do the things you need to do with your hands.

Dirk

[UglyDogRacing]

And above all thats already been posted here, you need to practice being smooth. Smooth on the throttle, smooth on the brakes, smooth with the clutch, smooth changing your body position. Practice being smooth when you are slower and it will benefit you down the road as your confidence increases and you starting pushing your limits further. Do not think of your brakes as being on or off. It will cause you to grab them and disrupt the chassis. If you're having difficulty blipping the throttle, try feeding the clutch instead. I have never been good with blipping the throttle so I learned to feed the clutch more instead. A good drill to do for either method is to ride in a straight line and go up and down through the gears but try to maintain the exact same speed. You dont need to be going track speeds to do it so you can practice it while on the street. Keep practicing and you will eventually get to a point where your not thinking about all the steps involved and you can focus more on getting through the turn instead of what you think you should be doing while in it.

[*KEN*]

Maybe Jay and Dirk found the answer to this one.

If you're repositioning your foot during braking, then you won't be able to grip the tank with your legs as well and will likely have weight on your hands - making blipping more difficult. Reposition your feet before hard braking.

Also, I assumed that you brake with only a couple fingers. Keeping a few fingers around the grip helps me to keep control of the throttle and brake. I sometimes use those fingers left on the grip to push forward (towards the brake lever) while blipping. This helps me to maintain constant brake pressure by fighting my braking-fingers that have a tendency to pull the brake lever harder during the actual blip.

[UglyDogRacing]

If you're repositioning your foot during braking, then you won't be able to grip the tank with your legs as well and will likely have weight on your hands - making blipping more difficult. Reposition your feet before hard braking.



get in the habit of riding on the balls of your feet all the time and you will have one less thing to worry about when entering a corner.

[asp_125]

There were like 10 steps in executing a corner in "Total Control" - Pilot can probably recite them off in his sleep. Move the foot, pre-position the body.... etc.. it's in Lee Park's book.

[Slo]

Move the foot

At a track like IMI where there is practically no rest, always body movement happening, I would not recommend moving the foot (not including the left foot for shifting). Unless they are referring to pivoting the foot along with the body positioning.

I have not read the book or taken those classes so they may be talking about something different or something street oriented.

[asp_125]

True, the interlinked turns at IMI do not allow for foot repositioning with the exception of the ends of the straights.

[*KEN*]

Some people suggested to stay on the balls of your feet. Obviously this isn't possible if you're going to use the rear brake (I'm assuming that you don't have a thumb-brake). The truly easiest solution will be to stay on the balls of your feet and ignore the rear brake - a ton of people do this. Using the rear brake will slow the bike faster than just the front, but then you have to reposition your foot.

I sometimes use the rear brake. As you brake, weight is transferred to the front of the bike and eventually the rear brake becomes useless (or worse). Therefore I'll brake with both brakes, gradually let off of the rear brake (continue w/ front brake), reposition foot (continue w/ front brake), etc. It's not easy to reposition the foot while still braking though.