So here is a ?

[Knuckle Dragger]

Was pulling into a 7-11 in Loveland on the Busa. This guy in a VW pulls right behinde me and starts yelling at me asking me if I wanted him to hit me. I am thinking what the F. He goes on to claim I cut him off now I never saw him so maybe I did maybe I did not. I work in Corrections so I am thinking oh hell do not do anything dumb. So I just allow this guy to yell as I get off my bike opposite of him (so the bike is in between me and him). He gets out of the car calling me a P (kinda like a cat). Meanwhile this guy and girl from the liquor store come out. Now here is my kicker I reamain silent he is demanding I remove my "hat" (I had a helmet on). I carry concealed carry because of my job now I am trying to maintain a three arm lenghth from me and him as taught by us in my job. He keeps closing in on me so I reach behind my back and just grab the grip of my gun (I do not draw it). The guy from the liqiour store comes over and tells the guy "I know it is confusing" and nudges him into the guys car. So my question do any of you just get random people coming up to you all crazy like this and what was "confusing"? I swear classic sign of road rage what should have happened instead of putting yourself in between a gun fight is call the police let them sort it out. I do know this I was just and my actions are warranted so I know I would not have rode in the cruiser tonight.

[The Black Knight]

Well I think you did right in maintaining proper distance from the aggressor, however I like you would not have called the police. For one, once you're on the phone you are distracted. That's a great time for an assailant to attack. Only time you call for law enforcement is after the incident.

From what it seems you just got stuck in a case of road rage and the guy was pissed. With the times they way they are right now, people are more and more on edge. Any little thing will set them off. So one must be mindful of their surroundings and what's going on. I've noticed it too, people getting torqued for no reason.

While gripping your firearm is instinctive be very careful not to come off as menacing. That can get you in hot water fast. Especially if the guy is just letting off some steam and ranting verbally.

An important thing for all concealed carry people is remember. You've got a lethal weapon on you and you must use "above and beyond" control and remain cool in a situation. Always try and diffuse the situation first and exhaust all avenues before resorting to deadly force.

A second thing is this happened in front of a business where there are probably alot of other people walking around. Now had this happened in a dark alley way with just you and him or maybe him and a few other buddies. Then yeah I'd pull the pistol and they can talk to the business end of it(because you, your surroundings and the situation has changed altogether).

Also had this guy produced a weapon then you are full right to produce yours. WE concealed carry holders walk a fine line in use of lethal force.

I for one don't think you did anything wrong and remain cool throughout the ordeal. I would only recommend that you be a little slower to grip the firearm and maybe let things play out just a few moments longer. Granted I wasn't there and I can't judge for you as far as what's "gone to far" in my opinion. But I just know that someone can turn it into a menacing charge very quick and it doesn't even have to be the other guy. Just a bystander that might be startled by the fact you have a firearm concealed. Although you will be able to beat a menacing charge if it stays holstered and you just kept your hand on it(which is what you did). The only time your gun leaves it's holster is in that last resort situation of having to pull the trigger.

Lastly, I would have called the cops and reported the guy. Give them his description and his license plate info. Let them know what he did and what went on. If anything you did a CYA and let them know that there is a guy who's really pissed off driving around and yelling at people. If this guy does it again, then there will be a record of complaints on this dude.

Good job and stay safe, people are getting weirder everyday out there.

[Knuckle Dragger]

Thanks for the words here guess I should be clear in no way was I thinking I should call the police; I was thinking the guy or gal from the liquor store should. You make a good point on the grip thing and thanks. I am not looking at being a "John Wayne" here but it is scary times now as you pointed out. As it gets wramer just something to consider and be ssafe.

[MikeG]

It is unusual about the guy from the liquor store coming over and saying "I know it is confusing" Maybe he had put two and two together when you had reached behind your back and was just doing what he could to diffuse the situation before things got real ugly. Who knows?

[SamuraiX]

Boy that is a ?

[YZFRydn]

I have had a few people freak out on me when I am on the bike for reasons I do not even know. There were a few times when I know I did not do anything wrong and people get very aggressive and unfortunately, bike vs car, I lose.

I have 13 months left till I can legally own a handgun and I will be applying for my CCW.

[The Black Knight]

Thanks for the words here guess I should be clear in no way was I thinking I should call the police; I was thinking the guy or gal from the liquor store should. You make a good point on the grip thing and thanks. I am not looking at being a "John Wayne" here but it is scary times now as you pointed out. As it gets wramer just something to consider and be safe.

Oh yeah, I hear you it would have been nice for someone else to give a call to law enforcement but I think it's case by case. It's funny bystanders won't give the police a call during something serious like this. But for some reason, when someone goes down riding in the canyons, passerbyes are the first to call for help(especially when you don't need it and no one is hurt, then the cops show up and everyone gets a ticket).

I don't think 99% of concealed carry people are looking to be John Wayne and like you say times are scary. Which is why it's better to be safe than sorry and I've always believed that it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. So sometimes you'll just have to commit to the situation and let it play itself out.


It is unusual about the guy from the liquor store coming over and saying "I know it is confusing" Maybe he had put two and two together when you had reached behind your back and was just doing what he could to diffuse the situation before things got real ugly. Who knows?
That's how I took it, that the guy at the liquor store figured out what was going on and tried to calm things down. Or maybe he watched the whole thing unfold from inside. Alot of times an outside person can figure out things way faster than the two people involved, I don't know it's hard to say.

[Zach929rr]

(especially when you don't need it and no one is hurt, then the cops show up and everyone gets a ticket).


That is such truth. Better they call when you don't need it then nobody helping you when you do. It sucks when a cop threatens a careless ticket to a rider that just ran off the ran road off the road... and everything is fine except for the bike.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

That is such truth. Better they call when you don't need it then nobody helping you when you do. It sucks when a cop threatens a careless ticket to a rider that just ran off the ran road off the road... and everything is fine except for the bike.
Amen to that! lol

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Sorry to hear it John, glad the dipshit didn't escalate it to where you had to remove him from the gene pool. Sounds like you did a great job of remaining calm.

[khuebner250]

Where do you carry when you ride, small of your back?

[Wintermute]

"You sure you got enough?" "You can never have enough." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX8t1zguu_w)

Don't be like Isaac Hayes at the end of that clip!

[The Black Knight]

Where do you carry when you ride, small of your back?
I know when I carry when I ride, I run a shoulder holster rig. It's really the only comfortable way to. And it's not that I'm going to be able to get to my firearm while I'm riding. It's for when I'm off the bike, so before anyone flames me for carrying when I ride or say it's useless to have it when you ride, that's not the case.


"You sure you got enough?" "You can never have enough." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX8t1zguu_w)

Don't be like Isaac Hayes at the end of that clip!
Uhh, unless you've got a old touchy gun or just a really crappy one, they aren't going to go off if you land wrong. Most modern semi-autos pass the Glock test with flying colors.

[Slo]

Good job maintaining your bearing, most others wouldn't have had the same self control.

I almost got hit by a woman coming out of a street parking spot Sunday at Belmar, had to go into oncoming traffic, luckily the other side of the street, cars were a safe distance away. Woman apologized through her window, things happen, we have all gotten careless at one time or another so, I just went on my way.

[Knuckle Dragger]

I carry in the small of my back in a tuckable inside waist band holster; this way I can also just wear a t-shirt and not tell on myself. Would like to get a shoulder rig but not sure what to do about it if I go in somewhere and take the coat off. I am also comfortable with this carry; to me it is something personal as people have different body types and such.

[SamuraiX]

i got self control.

[sag]

shoulda "took a step back and started spraying..."

[Panman06]

I've had my share of altercations. I've been on the other side a couple times as well...never threatened physical harm or closed on anyone though.

In situations like this, I try to verbally defuse the situation. I offer an apology (regardless of blame) for unknowingly "cutting the person off." If the situation escalates, I verbally (loud) ask them to back off; stating that I do not want trouble. I make sure any witnesses can attest that I tried to avoid conflict. :)

Most guys will back off at that point. Glad the guy didn't force your hand.

[Wintermute]

[snip]
Uhh, unless you've got a old touchy gun or just a really crappy one, they aren't going to go off if you land wrong. Most modern semi-autos pass the Glock test with flying colors.

I know, just looking for an excuse to post the funniest snippet of that movie. Hell, my sidearm doesn't even have a safety. (Sig 229 Sport, not that I CC.)

[fook]

this happened to me once and once with the aggressive biker while i was in the car.. both times in boulder, oddly enough.

one time coming down baseline i noticed a car was following pretty close so eventually i just pulled into a gas station.. sure enough here they come following, some guy in his late 50s starts yelling at me that i passed him illegally and was going to kill someone. i told him sorry but dont think i passed illegally at all... he immediately interrupts me and starts yelling even louder.. at this point i pulled out my phone and pretended to dial 911, he asked wtf i was doing and i told him he could yell at the police because i'd had enough. he told me to fuck off and pulled away. problem solved.

then one day coming up valmont some guy on a cruiser pulled up alongside me and started yelling at me, giving me the finger etc etc.. came to a stoplight and he told me he was going to kick my ass and i asked him what was wrong, he told me i cut him off on 28th and truthfully i'd never seen the guy before but apologized and once again got a half of some threat before the light turned green and i started going again.. of course he had to pull in front of me and pull a brake-check before nearly dropping the bike as he tried to take off again.. gotta love that.

bottom line, some people have problems and really don't know how to cope. i might've cut the bike off, i dunno.. i like to think i drive pretty laid back and always check before lane changing but who knows.. he however clearly had something more to prove than just wanting to make me aware of the mistake.. the baseline guy was just a jerk upset with bikers/having to share boulder with other people or something.

[Xtremjeepn]

.....I never saw him so maybe I did maybe I did not. ...............So I just allow this guy to yell as I get off my bike opposite of him (so the bike is in between me and him). He gets out of the car calling me a P (kinda like a cat). ............I remain silent .......... I carry concealed carry ...........He keeps closing in on me so I reach behind my back and just grab the grip of my gun (I do not draw it). .


....... I am not looking at being a "John Wayne" here but it is scary times now as you pointed out. As it gets wramer just something to consider and be ssafe.



Being a retired LEO. Here is what I am seeing in this.

From your description the guy is verbally abusive and moving toward you. He called you a cat, but never threatened your life or anyone around you. No sign of phisical force or violence at this point.

You are not sure if you actually did "cut the guy off", yet you say nothing at all. No appologies, no discussion, nothing.

Your first reaction is to reach for your gun??!!!


Maybe you are not ready for a conceled carry, maybe you just need additional training in what the alternatives are.


Can you imagine if evertime someone was verbally abusive to a cop they reached for their gun??

There are several choices that could have/should have been explored before even considering reaching for your gun in the situation described.

It should be a last step, not the first.

[Knuckle Dragger]

Sorry about this guess I should have explained more here; I did aplogize and made a coment that I am glade we are both safe this is when he exited his car and started in on me. When I said I did not say anything I was refering to that once all he wanted to do is yell and I had offered a sorry I just felt it best to let him blow his steam. I did not reach untill he started to advance on me and I told him to step back and he still kept advancing on me. Anyone that know me knows that I am really laid back; I deal with offenders day in calling me names so I have thick skin here. However I do know physical signs of aggesion and lose of control after working a dention center for more then 2 years. I know alot of this can no be said in a simple post. Also what you probaly were not privilage to is that non-verbal is 70% of of a conversation. Again sorry I did not explain that better but I just assumed that it would be a given that I would have tried some type of conversation not just stand there like a store maniguine.


Being a retired LEO. Here is what I am seeing in this.

From your description the guy is verbally abusive and moving toward you. He called you a cat, but never threatened your life or anyone around you. No sign of phisical force or violence at this point.

You are not sure if you actually did "cut the guy off", yet you say nothing at all. No appologies, no discussion, nothing.

Your first reaction is to reach for your gun??!!!


Maybe you are not ready for a conceled carry, maybe you just need additional training in what the alternatives are.


Can you imagine if evertime someone was verbally abusive to a cop they reached for their gun??

There are several choices that could have/should have been explored before even considering reaching for your gun in the situation described.

It should be a last step, not the first.

[Slo]

Being a retired LEO. Here is what I am seeing in this.

From your description the guy is verbally abusive and moving toward you. He called you a cat, but never threatened your life or anyone around you. No sign of phisical force or violence at this point.

You are not sure if you actually did "cut the guy off", yet you say nothing at all. No appologies, no discussion, nothing.

Your first reaction is to reach for your gun??!!!


Maybe you are not ready for a conceled carry, maybe you just need additional training in what the alternatives are.


Can you imagine if evertime someone was verbally abusive to a cop they reached for their gun??

There are several choices that could have/should have been explored before even considering reaching for your gun in the situation described.

It should be a last step, not the first.

Your "sayings" are pretty flawed...

-Just because you accidently cut someone off doesn't give them the right react in that manner, and no where is an apology needed, especially after the way the other guy reacted.

-Someone following you into a parking lot and advancing on you after they exited a vehicle all irrate... that is a sign of violence more specifically road rage. If you had children in your vehicle and someone came up to you...we know what many would have done in that situation.

-Cops do "reach" for their weapons more often than not when approaching vehicles they pull over, without anyone verbally assaulting them among many other scenerios.

-He did not brandish the weapon so everything he did was still good.

[PROFLYER]

I think you reacted just fine. I've reached for mine twice now just in case (hand on grip), there's a point where it's best to shut up and let the moron keep yappin I guess. You were right also in telling him to step back, quit advancing etc., that's a sign of physical threat, I think the retired LEO has forgotten a few things, like when a cop tells you to stay where you are and you approach the cop, that's aggression in a cops world, so it can be in our (us ccw holders) as well. Making verbal threats then approaching are both signs of possible violence, I think this guy should consider himself lucky, he didn't realize how close he could have been to dying.

[Xtremjeepn]

Sorry about this guess I should have explained more here; .....

The additional information makes it a different situation. As I stated, I was only commenting on the situation as described. (and FWIW I worked the Jails for a few years before working the streets)


Your "sayings" are pretty flawed...

-Just because you accidently cut someone off doesn't give them the right react in that manner, and no where is an apology needed, especially after the way the other guy reacted.

-Someone following you into a parking lot and advancing on you after they exited a vehicle all irrate... that is a sign of violence more specifically road rage. If you had children in your vehicle and someone came up to you...we know what many would have done in that situation.

This has nothing to do with right or wrong over who cut of who or who should appoligize. This is about someone even thinking about using deadly force over an entirely verbal confrontation. Your hand should not even move toward the weapon until it is clear that searious bodily injury or death may occur, and there is NO other option.

What you are describing is "gang land" mentality. Potentially taking a life over verbal insults and foolish pride. Ever life deserves more respect than that.

You even go on to "what if" about children etc. Which is NOT his situation. You can "what if" all day long. None of that will ever be fact or relavent to the facts as described in the original post.

Now go explain to your children that you are spending the rest of your life in jail because you refused to apoligize for something you may or may not have done in TRAFFIC and would rather let it escalate to someone being murdered.








-Cops do "reach" for their weapons more often than not when approaching vehicles they pull over, without anyone verbally assaulting them among many other scenerios.

.

....and where exactly do you get this information from? I retired from law enforcement and I can tell you for a FACT that this is NOT the case.

The very few "bad cop" things you see on the news are VERY VERY VERY far from the millions of other contacts that happen everyday.

[Xtremjeepn]

I think you reacted just fine. I've reached for mine twice now just in case (hand on grip), there's a point where it's best to shut up and let the moron keep yappin I guess. You were right also in telling him to step back, quit advancing etc., that's a sign of physical threat, I think the retired LEO has forgotten a few things, like when a cop tells you to stay where you are and you approach the cop, that's aggression in a cops world, so it can be in our (us ccw holders) as well. Making verbal threats then approaching are both signs of possible violence, I think this guy should consider himself lucky, he didn't realize how close he could have been to dying.

He did not say he told him to stop in his original post. You are taking information given after my post and applying it.

I agree, if he had clearly told him to stop, etc then it is a different situation.

As he described the original situation, he went to the gun too quickly.

[Slo]

This has nothing to do with right or wrong over who cut of who or who should appoligize. This is about someone even thinking about using deadly force over an entirely verbal confrontation. Your hand should not even move toward the weapon until it is clear that searious bodily injury or death may occur, and there is NO other option.

What you are describing is "gang land" mentality. Potentially taking a life over verbal insults and foolish pride. Ever life deserves more respect than that.

You even go on to "what if" about children etc. Which is NOT his situation. You can "what if" all day long. None of that will ever be fact or relavent to the facts as described in the original post.

Now go explain to your children that you are spending the rest of your life in jail because you refused to apoligize for something you may or may not have done in TRAFFIC and would rather let it escalate to someone being murdered.







....and where exactly do you get this information from? I retired from law enforcement and I can tell you for a FACT that this is NOT the case.

The very few "bad cop" things you see on the news are VERY VERY VERY far from the millions of other contacts that happen everyday.

You mentioned "You are not sure if you actually did "cut the guy off", yet you say nothing at all. No appologies, no discussion, nothing."

No discussion was needed, the other guy was in the wrong for following him into the parking just to begin with the rest of it.

This verbal confrontation could have easily escalated, what if the other guy brandished a weapon? What knuckledragger did was be prepared without applying any threats of shooting anyone. He did not use deadly force, nor did he threaten it or show it.

No one mentioned actually using deadly force over verbal insults or pride. The point is, he did not use deadly force, nor did he plan on using deadly force over a few insults and such.

Any my info comes from when I have been pulled over by the police and approached by them many times in my past. Not from any stories that I "heard" but from my own experiences. Of course, I don't blame them either, they are just being prepared for the unknown.

[lightspeed]

You never have the right to shoot some one in the name of self defense unless they have a deadly weapon..IE gun, samurai sword...lol. Also...in court you have to show and prove that you did everything possible in an attempt to get away from the scene and consequently not pull your gun. There is no reason to bring a gun to a fist fight and then think that someone yelling at you is reason enough to use deadly force b/c you think they might try to hurt you.

Learn to protect yourself without a gun first..and then use it only as a last resort.

[The Black Knight]

Being a retired LEO. Here is what I am seeing in this.

From your description the guy is verbally abusive and moving toward you. He called you a cat, but never threatened your life or anyone around you. No sign of phisical force or violence at this point.

You are not sure if you actually did "cut the guy off", yet you say nothing at all. No appologies, no discussion, nothing.

Your first reaction is to reach for your gun??!!!


Maybe you are not ready for a conceled carry, maybe you just need additional training in what the alternatives are.


Can you imagine if evertime someone was verbally abusive to a cop they reached for their gun??

There are several choices that could have/should have been explored before even considering reaching for your gun in the situation described.

It should be a last step, not the first.
Xtremjeepn,

I think you chastise him a little to hard for his reactions. You of all people should know what goes into being prepared for an incident. I can't count the times I've seen or read about instructors telling their students to always be prepared for the possibility of the gun fight.

Because if you had taken the proper training and I know you have being retired LEO, you'll know that we the good guys(LEO's, CCW holders) are always at a disadvantage from the get go. The average criminal can close on you from a distance of 7 to 10 yards in roughly 1.5sec, that doesn't give you much time to react.

For him to put his hand on this pistol while might be looked at as extreme, is just him getting ready for the possible gun fight. Because WE all know that WE don't know what the bad guys might have under their shirts, Am I right???

So to come down hard on someone for evaluating the situation, keeping an eye on the escalation of the man's temper and his body language, in my opinion he did everything right.

The man, showed aggression by advancement. KnuckleDragger, said he told the guy to stop but the man kept on advancing. That right there is blatant red flag body language from the man that "I'm going to attack" pure and simple. It can't be construed any other way. Because the Bad Guy will try and call your bluff everytime. The bad guy(Pissed of Guy) in this case is very lucky and fortunate to not be talking to the business end of a pistol.

Knuckle Dragger, didn't know if the bad guy had a weapon on himself, so he was just being supremely cautious. I think it's something just about all of us who choose to be armed would do.

Again my only thing against what KnuckleDragger did was that he went for(put his hand on the grip of) his pistol in broad daylight. Which in my opnion he didn't do anything wrong as he was just being prepared. But since it was in broad daylight in front of other people at the store. I "personally " would have let things play out just a little bit more, because he had the advantage of being in the wide open for others to witness. Should the guy have attacked him or produced a weapon others would have been there to witness the ordeal.

Like I say, had this happened at night time and in a dark alley then the circumstances would be totally changed and it's one of those do or die situations. In a case of a dark alley, the variables change, you don't know if the bad guy has a weapon, or more bad guys to help him out. In that instance, when you're cornered you pull out your pistol and let it do the talking.

I know this sounds corny at a bit cliche but it's from a rather recent movie and I thought the terminology was very accurate and applies the bad guys of the world.

"Most people respect the badge, but everyone respects the gun" and in situations like KnuckleDraggers or my scenerio of being in a dark alley, sometimes it may be the best thing to whip your firearm out, because it's got a bunch of nasty little friends that will command attention.


You never have the right to shoot some one in the name of self defense unless they have a deadly weapon..IE gun, samurai sword...lol. Also...in court you have to show and prove that you did everything possible in an attempt to get away from the scene and consequently not pull your gun. There is no reason to bring a gun to a fist fight and then think that someone yelling at you is reason enough to use deadly force b/c you think they might try to hurt you.

Learn to protect yourself without a gun first..and then use it only as a last resort.
So would you consider a baseball bat a deadly weapon? It is used for playing a game or how about a 2X4 it is used for building things. How about a brick?? or a crowbar? piece of broken glass?? rope??

All of those things could be potential deadly weapons. And just because you have a gun and it's techinically not what the other guy has, means you can't use it to protect yourself?? Yeah I understand the "Return Fire with Equal Fire" but what if you can't run into Home Depot real quick in order to equip yourself with the proper fighting device??? Do police officers have to abide by the same rule of "like fire with equal fire", I don't think so. When they are out numbered or out gunned, they get SWAT to come in.

Obviously I'm being a tad fascious but you get the point. But a point that KnuckleDragger made was he tried to diffuse to the situation to the "best of his ability", when all avenues to the "best of his ability" were exhausted and the guy still kept advancing, well then you can see why he did what he did.

Yes, in court you have to provide all evidence of trying to diffuse the situation. But I think with responsible CCW holders, 9 times out of 10, they have tried every means necessary to diffuse the situation. Most CCW's I know, don't run around half cocked ready for a gun fight. In fact they all will do their damnedest to avoid one.

But you can't avoid trouble, when trouble comes looking for you. You stand your ground and try all means of diffusing but if that doesn't work and the bad guy(s) are still bent on harming you, then you have to do what you have to do.

You say, "there is no reason to bring a gun to a fist fight." Well, KnuckleDragger didn't bring a gun to a fist fight. As far as he was concerned he didn't intend on fighting anyone. It was the other guy, who brought(as far as know) his fists to a gun fight(because Knuckle was armed and concealed). So I believe it's the other way around.

Second, the other guy could have just kept his mouth shut and kept on about his business. He didn't have to pick a fight over "alledgedly" getting cut off. I mean, that's pretty irrational to follow someone into a parking lot, just to bitch them out about cutting you off. And you call KnuckleDragger irrational for wanting to protect himself???

I think people are too quick to bag on CCW's because many people don't think CCW holders should be allowed to have their permits and will look for any reason under the sun to discount them. And then call BS on a CCW for possibly thinking of going for his firearm in certain situations. When the CCW wouldn't have been put in that situation, had party #2 just kept their cool and went on about their business. Granted CCW's have to show the utmost restraint and I think we all do, we meaning the people that I've talked to via message boards and people I know personally whom carry as well.

[Knuckle Dragger]

Actually you information is not right basicly there are two types of weapons Leatahal and Non-leathal. Non-leathal being a bat, baton, OC spray, chain, etc; Lethal being a gun, knife, or as you point out a sword. If somebody approaches with a non-lethal it is in your right to go one up and go right into the use of a lethal weapon. It reamains that you have to beleive you are in danger or a third party is in danger and that a need to protect yourself or others is warranted. As stated in CRS 18-1-704, now kinda lost count about who has responded to this post but it seem if this was a jury of my peers the verdict would be not guilty, kind of why I started this post to get this kind of feed back and maybe make some other have a thought as well.


You never have the right to shoot some one in the name of self defense unless they have a deadly weapon..IE gun, samurai sword...lol. Also...in court you have to show and prove that you did everything possible in an attempt to get away from the scene and consequently not pull your gun. There is no reason to bring a gun to a fist fight and then think that someone yelling at you is reason enough to use deadly force b/c you think they might try to hurt you.

Learn to protect yourself without a gun first..and then use it only as a last resort.

[fook]

Xtremjeepn,

I think people are too quick to bag on CCW's because many people don't think CCW holders should be allowed to have their permits and will look for any reason under the sun to discount them. And then call BS on a CCW for possibly thinking of going for his firearm in certain situations. When the CCW wouldn't have been put in that situation, had party #2 just kept their cool and went on about their business. Granted CCW's have to show the utmost restraint and I think we all do, we meaning the people that I've talked to via message boards and people I know personally whom carry as well.

eh, i think it just comes down two different schools of thought. those who think they need a gun and those who dont. you view yourself as being supremely cautious and always prepared for the worst case scenario... most of us that don't own/carry guns also generally don't feel theres a need to. i'm not casting judgement, i could care less if you carry or not, i just tend to believe that you can more easily defuse a situation than out-escalate it... if that makes any sense.

what i get out of this is that if anything the gun itself was about to escalate the confrontation. if he hadn't had the gun what would he have done? told the guy to chill out or call the cops if he was so upset? gone into the liqour store and asked them to call the police because this nutjob won't shut up? i'm guessing if this guy were faced with the reality that the police were on their way he would have quickly left rather than explain why he chased someone into a parkinglot.

and i say all this based on the fact that i'm not a corrections officer, i dont deal with that kind of scum and i never worry about them seeking me out or anything like that, i'm me.. YMMV

[The Black Knight]

eh, i think it just comes down two different schools of thought. those who think they need a gun and those who dont. you view yourself as being supremely cautious and always prepared for the worst case scenario... most of us that don't own/carry guns also generally don't feel theres a need to. i'm not casting judgement, i could care less if you carry or not, i just tend to believe that you can more easily defuse a situation than out-escalate it... if that makes any sense.

what i get out of this is that if anything the gun itself was about to escalate the confrontation. if he hadn't had the gun what would he have done? told the guy to chill out or call the cops if he was so upset? gone into the liqour store and asked them to call the police because this nutjob won't shut up? i'm guessing if this guy were faced with the reality that the police were on their way he would have quickly left rather than explain why he chased someone into a parkinglot.

and i say all this based on the fact that i'm not a corrections officer, i dont deal with that kind of scum and i never worry about them seeking me out or anything like that, i'm me.. YMMV
As far as concealed carry, to each their own. You do bring up some good points in your second paragraph. Allow me to counter though.

You think the gun would have escalated the problem. And for me, it was all part of the de-escalation. You said for him if he had not had his gun, he might have told the guy to chill out or to call the cops. Well he did tell the guy in so many words to just let it go. The guy still didn't. Also if the guy is that pissed, why would he call the cops because he's starting the fight?? That part I don't get.

You say, he(Knuckle) could have went into the liquor store and had them call the cops. Well that's great but what are the cops going to do?? They aren't there(there is no telling what vicinity they are in) and the situation could have been escalated by the fact that he "did" call the cops. That may or may not have enraged the guy more. Second, since the cops aren't there, he(pissed off guy) may have just commited to the fact that he wanted to fight and then the two of them would have had a scrap on their hands.

Also I'm not piling on our Law Enforcement, but seriously do you think they are going to respond to some small altercation like this?? I know for a fact that CSPD won't respond unless there is a weapon involved. Hell two years ago myself and some co-workers couldn't even get CSPD to respond to the fact that we had found the guys(yes my co-worked had a description of the robbers from a neighbor) who robbed one of my co-workers home(about a week earlier, taking a $2200 mountain bike, and $2500 laptop) and had the stuff right out in front of us at a local park. You know what their response was?? "Sorry, all units are busy and unavailable", when we counted two cop cars within a 1 block radius!! both of them were conducting traffic stops and one was finished just sitting in his squad car with his lights on.

So come on, I respect LEO's but I know where their priorites lie most of the time and unless it's urgent/emergency or their's a weapon involved. You're on your own and that sucks but hey it's the nature of the beast.

[Rhino]

Its a nice eye opener of how many CCW and such we have here.

We need to work on new tags:

CSC. Not as well armed as the Sons of Silence....yet! :lol:
(of course our clubhouse doesn't get raided either)

CSC. No dues, no meetings, just riding...but bring your own damn ammo!


And for another positive note: For as many as there are, I've never heard of a single incident involving anyone and their peashooters.

[lightspeed]

Actually you information is not right basicly there are two types of weapons Leatahal and Non-leathal. Non-leathal being a bat, baton, OC spray, chain, etc; Lethal being a gun, knife, or as you point out a sword. If somebody approaches with a non-lethal it is in your right to go one up and go right into the use of a lethal weapon. It reamains that you have to beleive you are in danger or a third party is in danger and that a need to protect yourself or others is warranted. As stated in CRS 18-1-704, now kinda lost count about who has responded to this post but it seem if this was a jury of my peers the verdict would be not guilty, kind of why I started this post to get this kind of feed back and maybe make some other have a thought as well.

That's interesting. In the nations capital you have no right to use lethal force against non lethal force. Can you sight the reference stating that you can use lethal force when a person is potentially going to use non lethal force against you?

I have a hard time believing that a jury of your peers wouldn't send you to the hole if you were to go to court for putting a hole in someones head and they only had the fisticuffs to do battle with.:)

[fook]

As far as concealed carry, to each their own. You do bring up some good points in your second paragraph. Allow me to counter though.

You think the gun would have escalated the problem. And for me, it was all part of the de-escalation. You said for him if he had not had his gun, he might have told the guy to chill out or to call the cops. Well he did tell the guy in so many words to just let it go. The guy still didn't. Also if the guy is that pissed, why would he call the cops because he's starting the fight?? That part I don't get.


it's a suggestion to the person that if they want to continue down this path of yelling and carrying on they should call the police because they're no longer being effective with you.. basically change the persons direction, of course the guy wasn't going to call the cops but its a way of disengaging.. i'm not saying it'd have worked, but it's worked for me in the past.. like when the old man in boulder started screaming at me about being a killer on two wheels or whatever.. he just wanted to be an a-hole and realized the moment was over.



You say, he(Knuckle) could have went into the liquor store and had them call the cops. Well that's great but what are the cops going to do?? They aren't there(there is no telling what vicinity they are in) and the situation could have been escalated by the fact that he "did" call the cops. That may or may not have enraged the guy more. Second, since the cops aren't there, he(pissed off guy) may have just commited to the fact that he wanted to fight and then the two of them would have had a scrap on their hands.
i don't personally really expect to call the cops in that situation but its sometimes just enough to make the other party believe you're going to, and that is why you're walking away from them. most people don't want to get into some drawn out mess, they want to sit there and vent out their frustrations until they realize you're moving on in a way that also tells them that if they keep trying to escalate they definitely will be talking to cops and for some irate dude in a VW, that's probably enough to walk away.

what would you do with a gun in your waistband and some guy decides he wants a fist fight, out of curiousity? do you draw on him? certainly now you're in more danger, even if he's disarmed but wants to take a swing at you theres a chance he can get your weapon? what if that other bystander hadn't difused for knuckle dragger? what is your next move with a gun? i'm just asking here... i've never actually had anyone try to take a swing at me, some drunk guy at dead guy days came close but opted out at the last minute.



So come on, I respect LEO's but I know where their priorites lie most of the time and unless it's urgent/emergency or their's a weapon involved. You're on your own and that sucks but hey it's the nature of the beast.exactly, still doesn't change the fact that you direct a person into thinking about the idea of police, though.. you can still use it as a deterrent and for your avg suburban parkinglot dispute, its enough.

bringing a gun into the same dispute however generally doesn't seem wise to me.. but again, thats me and what has worked for me doesn't carry over to the rest of the world.

[lightspeed]

So would you consider a baseball bat a deadly weapon? It is used for playing a game or how about a 2X4 it is used for building things. How about a brick?? or a crowbar? piece of broken glass?? rope??

All of those things could be potential deadly weapons. And just because you have a gun and it's techinically not what the other guy has, means you can't use it to protect yourself?? Yeah I understand the "Return Fire with Equal Fire" but what if you can't run into Home Depot real quick in order to equip yourself with the proper fighting device??? Do police officers have to abide by the same rule of "like fire with equal fire", I don't think so. When they are out numbered or out gunned, they get SWAT to come in.

Obviously I'm being a tad fascious but you get the point. But a point that KnuckleDragger made was he tried to diffuse to the situation to the "best of his ability", when all avenues to the "best of his ability" were exhausted and the guy still kept advancing, well then you can see why he did what he did.

Yes, in court you have to provide all evidence of trying to diffuse the situation. But I think with responsible CCW holders, 9 times out of 10, they have tried every means necessary to diffuse the situation. Most CCW's I know, don't run around half cocked ready for a gun fight. In fact they all will do their damnedest to avoid one.

But you can't avoid trouble, when trouble comes looking for you. You stand your ground and try all means of diffusing but if that doesn't work and the bad guy(s) are still bent on harming you, then you have to do what you have to do.

You say, "there is no reason to bring a gun to a fist fight." Well, KnuckleDragger didn't bring a gun to a fist fight. As far as he was concerned he didn't intend on fighting anyone. It was the other guy, who brought(as far as know) his fists to a gun fight(because Knuckle was armed and concealed). So I believe it's the other way around.

Second, the other guy could have just kept his mouth shut and kept on about his business. He didn't have to pick a fight over "alledgedly" getting cut off. I mean, that's pretty irrational to follow someone into a parking lot, just to bitch them out about cutting you off. And you call KnuckleDragger irrational for wanting to protect himself???
.

All of this gives you no reason to shoot someone who isn't carrying a deadly weapon.

And a banana can be used to kill someone, however if you shoot someone over one....let me know when your court date is and I'll be there with a small bag of popcorn because that trial isn't going to last long.:lol:

Point is, human life is too precious to just find any excuse to pull a glock and end someones life b/c you don't want to get your a*s beat. Now if your life is in danger, I say pull it and prepare to use it...however, those who have been forced to shoot someone and/or who have had to take a life know that there are consequences beyond anything a court of the law may or may not hand down to you.

Also, I dissagree with you...you can avoid trouble..not always but in many cases these things are avoidable...and certainly pulling your piece is a choice. Someone walking towards you yelling is to a trained eye not necessarily an issue. There are many other factors to consider...hand movement...eye movement...body position...shoulder position etc that will indicate whether someone is ready to kill or if they are just letting off steam. You have barkers, biters and many personalities in between. The person who intends on taking your life is usually not the person who's making a lot of noise yelling....this is usually a cover for something else. Training in these situations is the only thing that help you to determine who's who.

IMO...a properly trained person will be very hesistant to actually pull. On the other hand someone with an itchy trigger finger who has actually never had to pull and use a gun in these situations...usually acts prematurely.

[The Black Knight]

what would you do with a gun in your waistband and some guy decides he wants a fist fight, out of curiousity? do you draw on him? certainly now you're in more danger, even if he's disarmed but wants to take a swing at you theres a chance he can get your weapon? what if that other bystander hadn't difused for knuckle dragger? what is your next move with a gun? i'm just asking here... i've never actually had anyone try to take a swing at me, some drunk guy at dead guy days came close but opted out at the last minute.


Well first before I comment on what I'd do, I never carry my gun just inside the waistband with no holster. That's what thugs and gang bangers do. I've gone to a great expense in nice holsters and multiple rigs for different carry situations. This isn't directed at you but I don't know why everyone thinks that someone with a CCW just carries it around in their pocket or waistband. It's actually pretty uncomfortable to carry that way, you've got no support.

Anyways back on topic. I've I'm armed and someone wants to throw down. It's not going to happen. First off, I'm armed, so if I get a scrap with someone. There is a great chance that he might realize I'm armed and try to wrestle the weapon away and making a bad situation even worse. Second, if I do decide to throw down with some guy and get the cops called. Guess who gets nailed the most?? Me, why? because I'm CCW and should know better.

Obviously if it's something I can't avoid and have to use my fists, the cops will evaluate the situation when they show up and with proper cooperation in the matter, more often then not it won't be a big deal.

But back to your question at hand. The bad guy is still bent on a fight. I'll properly inform him that I've got no intention to fight and try for a way out. Even while he may be disarmed(lacking a firearm), I'm still not going to trust in the fact that he still might not have a weapon on his person. If all else fails and the guy still won't go away and still wants a fist fight. I'll enlighten him to the fact that I am CCW and his next option should be to back down.

For one, I'm not going to get into a boxing match(it's pointless and proves nothing). Second I carry so that I can protect myself and family. There is always potential for something to go wrong.

Now to finish the answer to your question. If all other avenues have been explored. I've informed the bad guy that I'm armed and CCW. And he still doesn't get the picture. I'll draw on him, detain him and hold him until Police can arrive.

With that said, any normal thinking bad guy(if there is such a thing) is going to get the hint that he's staring down the barrel of a pistol and being commanded to lie down on the ground. If all this doesn't sink in and he's still pressing the matter. One of two things is your possibility. 1. he's on some sort of substance(not drunk but on some form of drugs) or 2. he's trying to call your bluff. But if the bad guy has a clear mind(not altered by substance) he's going to lay down and kiss the pavement until the police arrive.

We are getting into alot of what-if's which can be speculated all day and all night. But to sum it all up, I'd explore and exhaust every avenue of escaping a confrontation possible. If not, there is nothing wrong with holding someone at gun point until the cops show up. It's a citizen's arrest. Sure the police will disarm you until they can straighten things out but you'll come out fine because you kept your cool, even with the pistol drawn.



know that there are consequences beyond anything a court of the law may or may not hand down to you.

IMO...a properly trained person will be very hesistant to actually pull. On the hand someone with an itchy trigger finger who has actually never had to pull and use a gun in these situations...usually acts prematurely.
I think Knuckle is properly trained, as he didn't draw on the bad guy. If he did we'd probably be hearing about it in the news.

You also point out the consequences of taking life. I don't think anyone CCW holder that I know of personally that has not reconciled the fact that "one day" they may have to take life. It's something that we just come to terms with. There is no easy way about it, you just accept it and that it's part of CCW. I also don't know of any CCW that is looking forward to this incident ever... I know don't and hope that time never comes.

I also think alot of the situations are very case by case. Each one has it's own set of circumstances.

[Knuckle Dragger]

If you read the post I said this in I did site my reference "CRS 18-1-701" so I will break it down for you C=Colorado (the state we live in) R=Revised (it has been reviewed as a bill) S=Statue (law/policy) 18-1-701 is the number of such law. So when a LEO take you into custody he pulls out this nice blue book printed by Lexis Nexis in which holds all of these laws this is how they are able to dertimine your charge and that get the funny number that sits to the left of the charge that nobody really knows what it means. This is then produced to the DA in which they can dismiss, reduce, or take on a larger charge since they are the legal begal. So there it is you can now look it up armed with this information.



That's interesting. In the nations capital you have no right to use lethal force against non lethal force. Can you sight the reference stating that you can use lethal force when a person is potentially going to use non lethal force against you?

I have a hard time believing that a jury of your peers wouldn't send you to the hole if you were to go to court for putting a hole in someones head and they only had the fisticuffs to do battle with.:)

[TFOGGuys]

Its a nice eye opener of how many CCW and such we have here.

We need to work on new tags:

CSC. Not as well armed as the Sons of Silence....yet! :lol:
(of course our clubhouse doesn't get raided either)



Perhaps not as well armed, but most likely better trained.....

[Flip]

What really bothers me when I read this is that all "we" (motorcycle riders) want to do is ride. We enjoy it, and we all really enjoy getting home in one piece. It seems that it is impossible to ride anywhere without some sort of incident. It just sucks.

[lightspeed]

If you read the post I said this in I did site my reference "CRS 18-1-701" so I will break it down for you C=Colorado (the state we live in) R=Revised (it has been reviewed as a bill) S=Statue (law/policy) 18-1-701 is the number of such law. So when a LEO take you into custody he pulls out this nice blue book printed by Lexis Nexis in which holds all of these laws this is how they are able to dertimine your charge and that get the funny number that sits to the left of the charge that nobody really knows what it means. This is then produced to the DA in which they can dismiss, reduce, or take on a larger charge since they are the legal begal. So there it is you can now look it up armed with this information.


Thanks for that break down..but I was more so refering to this sort of information.


18-1-704 Use Of Physical Force In Defense Of A Person

1. Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified
in using physical force
upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person in order to defend
himself or a third person
from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical
force by that other
person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be
necessary for that purpose.
2. Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser
degree of force is
inadequate and:
(a.) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he
or another person is in
imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
(b.) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical
force against an
occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or
attempting to commit
burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or
(c.) The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit
kidnapping as defined
in section 18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 18-4-301 or
18-4-302, sexual
assault as set forth in section 18-3-402 or 18-3-403 as it existed prior to
July 1, 2000, or assault as
defined in sections 18-3-202 or 18-3-203.


this makes a lot more sense than just blasting someone because you are afraid you may get into a fight.


And also this may be something to consider when attempting to hold someone at gun point until the LEO arrives.


18-12-106 Prohibited Use Of Weapons

1. A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:
a. He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm at another person;

[KennyFish]

I would say you handled it the right way, I always defuse the situation and try to get on my way, I would have taken down the license plate and reported the jackass, Im sure that would fall under some kind of road rage laws.

[T-Dub]

Good on you for not plugging the guy. Nowadays people are just stupid. I would never approach someone I don't know and start screaming at them. Maybe I am a cat. There are too many unknowns. Is the guy mental? Is he also armed? has he been attacked before and carries for protection and is scared? Did he just loose his job, wife, kids, house, and is now just trying to get out and blow off some steam on his bike. Maybe he is taking the gun to the pawnshop to get some more gas money, maybe he is taking it out to the woods to "whack" himself. What does he have to lose????

Someone approaches me and starts screaming about something like this, I just bounce the rev limiter a couple times and slap my helmet like there is bees in it. They generally leave me alone.

[TFOGGuys]

Thanks for that break down..but I was more so refering to this sort of information.


And also this may be something to consider when attempting to hold someone at gun point until the LEO arrives.


18-12-106 Prohibited Use Of Weapons

1. A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:
a. He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm at another person;


The key here is "unlawfully". If you are in fear of "great bodily harm", even if no actual physical assault has occurred, the justification for using a firearm to hold someone for LEOs MAY be there.

I know of only a few cases in which a CCW has used a firearm in self defense, one of which involved a man who shot someone else. The person who got himself shot started an altercation over a parking space at a Blockbuster,(I happened to be at the Chinese restaurant across the parking lot at the time) escalated to taking a few swings at the CCW, then picked up a chunk of pipe out of the back of his truck and advanced on the CCW. Witnesses said that the CCW several times tried to de-escalate the situation, but the assailant continued to get louder and more violent, until the CCW had no further options than to either draw and fire, or turn his back on the assailant. He drew, and fired 2 shots, killing the assailant. The DA declined to press any charges, based on the evidence and withness statements.

Colorado does not have any statutes that require you to sustain injury before defending yourself, only that you use a "reasonable" amount of force to alleviate the threat. KD pretty much satisfied those requirements, and fortunately, the situation was defused prior to any force being brought to bear.

[Panman06]

Thanks for that break down..but I was more so refering to this sort of information.


18-1-704 Use Of Physical Force In Defense Of A Person

1. Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified
in using physical force
upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person in order to defend
himself or a third person
from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical
force by that other
person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be
necessary for that purpose.
2. Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser
degree of force is
inadequate and:
(a.) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he
or another person is in
imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
(b.) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical
force against an
occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or
attempting to commit
burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or
(c.) The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit
kidnapping as defined
in section 18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 18-4-301 or
18-4-302, sexual
assault as set forth in section 18-3-402 or 18-3-403 as it existed prior to
July 1, 2000, or assault as
defined in sections 18-3-202 or 18-3-203.


this makes a lot more sense than just blasting someone because you are afraid you may get into a fight.


And also this may be something to consider when attempting to hold someone at gun point until the LEO arrives.


18-12-106 Prohibited Use Of Weapons

1. A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:
a. He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm at another person;


Colorado law allows for escalation of force if one believes that they are in imminent danger of great bodily injury.

Ponder this, an enraged male approaches a female. The male is 6'+ 200lbs+. The female is 5'8" and 120-130lbs. Do you really expect the female to have a fist fight defending herself from the male?

Another scenario, two males this time. One is 5'8" 150lbs. The other again is 6'+ and 200lbs+. The smaller stature male is not trained in any martial arts or combative arts. It is reasonable to assume the smaller male would receive "great bodily injury" if a fight ensued?

This is what will be presented to a jury to decide. While I do value SOME human life, the only unfair fight is the one you lose.

[The Black Knight]

This is what will be presented to a jury to decide. While I do value SOME human life, the only unfair fight is the one you lose.
That just made me think of a quote I heard awhile back. "if you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics sucks."

[Slo]

That just made me think of a quote I heard awhile back. "if you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics sucks."

Nice!!! A little humor in this thread is good.

[Wintermute]

What about trespassers?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/416718486_4bde7be26f.jpg?v=0

[TFOGGuys]

What about trespassers?



They make wonderful fertilizer....

http://www.gowanuslounge.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/wood_chipper_2.jpg

[Rhino]

Nice!!! A little humor in this thread is good.

Ammo in a gunfight is like bubble gum in school. If you don't have enough for everyone, you're in trouble. :)

[Zach929rr]

tl;dr :lol:

[lightspeed]

The key here is "unlawfully". If you are in fear of "great bodily harm", even if no actual physical assault has occurred, the justification for using a firearm to hold someone for LEOs MAY be there.

.

Operative word is May...lol. In a one on one encounter with a person who has no weapon...this is just in most cases not necessary in my opinion. So, why take that chance of pulling your piece and possibly escalating the situation further by involving a deadly weapon in the mix? Thing is...if you draw, you better have a lawful reason to shoot, and not just be suffering from self esteem issues and need a boost. Some people (not necessarily anyone in this discussion) are scared of gnats and so are looking for reasons to carry and pull out their 357 while imagining being in one of those old Clint Eastwood movies my dad used to watch 50 million times. "Make my day punk":lol:.

[lightspeed]

Ponder this, an enraged male approaches a female. The male is 6'+ 200lbs+. The female is 5'8" and 120-130lbs. Do you really expect the female to have a fist fight defending herself from the male?

Another scenario, two males this time. One is 5'8" 150lbs. The other again is 6'+ and 200lbs+. The smaller stature male is not trained in any martial arts or combative arts. It is reasonable to assume the smaller male would receive "great bodily injury" if a fight ensued?

This is what will be presented to a jury to decide. While I do value SOME human life, the only unfair fight is the one you lose.

Agreed on the two or three to one scenario,and a female being in a situation with a male even slightly larger than she...however, a one on one scenario with two men...(even if one is significantly bigger) is no excuse not to be able to handle yourself without using deadly force. Now if the dude is a b*tch (meaning he's frightened of his shadow) with no hand or self defense skills...then before he finds himself in that situation...maybe he should go get his white belt in Taikwondo down at the Y...lol:lol: before getting a CCW permit.

No..seriously, I'm just admittedly a little biased, since I've studied combat martial arts for quite a few years. And while being in many situations involving angry beer/testosterome sp? filled dudes...most of the time I didn't ever have to pull my blade..and my sig wasn't even the faintest thought. Most of these people out here are in fear just like many CCWers and not looking for trouble.

[The Black Knight]

Agreed on the two or three to one scenario,and a female being in a situation with a male even slightly larger than she...however, a one on one scenario with two men...(even if one is significantly bigger) is no excuse not to be able to handle yourself without using deadly force. Now if the dude is a b*tch (meaning he's frightened of his shadow) with no hand or self defense skills...then before he finds himself in that situation...maybe he should go get his white belt in Taikwondo down at the Y...lol:lol: before getting a CCW permit.

No..seriously, I'm just admittedly a little biased, since I've studied combat martial arts for quite a few years. And while being in many situations involving angry beer/testosterome sp? filled dudes...most of the time I didn't even have to pull my blade..and my sig wasn't even the faintest thought. Most of these people out here are in fear just like many CCWers and not looking for trouble.
So if someone doesn't practice the martial arts they are a B**ch? And also how are many CCW holders living in fear? I know I'm not looking for trouble but can say I'm living in fear of nothing. I guess I'm not understanding what you mean here.

And while I respect the martial arts and believe they have their place in self-defense tactics. I will have to agree with the legendary Jeff Cooper on his quote about martial arts:
"Bushido is all very well in its way, but it is no match for a 30-06."
:)

[Knuckle Dragger]

Again as i stated before in my training: hold the person at bay at least three arm lenghts once they enter two tell them to step back if they ignore draw. Got to ready postion (gun pointed 45 degrees at the ground finger off the trigger. If they still advance assume firing postion and commit to to the situation. Now you may beleive in picking up your teeth in a puddle of blood to "justify". I on the other hand would all togeather avoid any physical contact and allow the other person to "smile and what for the flash". After all if I allow him to contact me then there is more then a good chance he can take my weapon now I have armed a hot head. That is why you keep them at two arm lenghth min. at all times. Now you can keep playing devil advocate all you want I beleive the marjority has spoken; I beleive fact has been provided; as well as law and I would say the marjority has said it was a just situation; huh kinda like a jury would.

[Panman06]

Agreed on the two or three to one scenario,and a female being in a situation with a male even slightly larger than she...however, a one on one scenario with two men...(even if one is significantly bigger) is no excuse not to be able to handle yourself without using deadly force. Now if the dude is a b*tch (meaning he's frightened of his shadow) with no hand or self defense skills...then before he finds himself in that situation...maybe he should go get his white belt in Taikwondo down at the Y...lol:lol: before getting a CCW permit.

No..seriously, I'm just admittedly a little biased, since I've studied combat martial arts for quite a few years. And while being in many situations involving angry beer/testosterome sp? filled dudes...most of the time I didn't even have to pull my blade..and my sig wasn't even the faintest thought. Most of these people out here are in fear just like many CCWers and not looking for trouble.

No offense, but I find your arrogance amusing. I learned long ago, that despite how much training you get under your belt, there is always someone bigger and more skilled. You wouldn't happen to have studied at the Cobra Kai?

Now, if someone was to draw on you, they could argue that you are highly trained. The fact that you have studied combat martial arts made you a deadly threat. Therefore, the shooting is justified. Doesn't matter that you think he's a bitch...you're a slab on a corner's table and he's alive.

If you ever had to draw down on anyone, the DA would question why you didn't disarm the assailant with your "combat martial arts." You are better trained than your attacker and could have easily stopped the threat without resorting to your firearm. You are all of a sudden portrayed as trigger happy since you could have used martial arts.

There is always going to be someone who has more hand to hand skill than you. They may be smaller than you are and may not have the same respect for life as you. Question is, when you finally encounter someone who has more skill and less respect for life...will you resort to a weapon? Or would that make you a bitch?

I have Aikido, Krav Maga, and Shotokan under my belt. However, when sh!t hits the fan, I'm putting my faith in my .40 or .45. I'll leave the fancy stuff to Steven Segal. (He's a Navy SEAL you know...)

In my eyes, Knuckle did the right thing. If Knuckle did cut the guy off, the guy should have reported Knuckle's plates to CSP. Also, Knuckle is not under any legal restrictions; therefore he had every right to be where he was.

[The Black Knight]

No offense, but I find your arrogance amusing. I learned long ago, that despite how much training you get under your belt, there is always someone bigger and more skilled. You wouldn't happen to have studied at the Cobra Kai?

Are you kidding, when you're "The Best Around and nothing is going to keep you down" all you do is keep "sweeping the leg" and you're right out of that situation. :)

[lightspeed]

So if someone doesn't practice the martial arts they are a B**ch? And also how are many CCW holders living in fear? I know I'm not looking for trouble but can say I'm living in fear of nothing. I guess I'm not understanding what you mean here.

And while I respect the martial arts and believe they have their place in self-defense tactics. I will have to agree with the legendary Jeff Cooper on his quote about martial arts:
"Bushido is all very well in its way, but it is no match for a 30-06."
:)

Come on man....if you read my post I said..."b*tch (meaning he's frightened of his shadow). I clarified this for you.:)

Bushido is a way of life, a code not necessarily relating to combat. But realistically the function of a weapon is truely dependant on the skills of the person using that weapon. A blade or the tip of a pen in the hands of any skilled practitioner can most certainly be a match for a person carrying a gun in a close quarters situation IMO.

[lightspeed]

No offense, but I find your arrogance amusing. I learned long ago, that despite how much training you get under your belt, there is always someone bigger and more skilled. You wouldn't happen to have studied at the Cobra Kai?

Now, if someone was to draw on you, they could argue that you are highly trained. The fact that you have studied combat martial arts made you a deadly threat. Therefore, the shooting is justified. Doesn't matter that you think he's a bitch...you're a slab on a corner's table and he's alive.

If you ever had to draw down on anyone, the DA would question why you didn't disarm the assailant with your "combat martial arts." You are better trained than your attacker and could have easily stopped the threat without resorting to your firearm. You are all of a sudden portrayed as trigger happy since you could have used martial arts.

There is always going to be someone who has more hand to hand skill than you. They may be smaller than you are and may not have the same respect for life as you. Question is, when you finally encounter someone who has more skill and less respect for life...will you resort to a weapon? Or would that make you a bitch?

I have Aikido, Krav Maga, and Shotokan under my belt. However, when sh!t hits the fan, I'm putting my faith in my .40 or .45. I'll leave the fancy stuff to Steven Segal. (He's a Navy SEAL you know...)

In my eyes, Knuckle did the right thing. If Knuckle did cut the guy off, the guy should have reported Knuckle's plates to CSP. Also, Knuckle is not under any legal restrictions; therefore he had every right to be where he was.

Wow...a little sensitive about the b*tch comment. That wasn't aimed at anyone specific...just making the point that if someone is frightened, they should consider a little training in other areas maybe in addition to CCW so that they may have other options instead of just resorting to pulling out a 45.

And, I don't mean to sound arrogant. Just giving my perspective from my experience dealing with these types of situations. A gun is very seldom necessary. BTW who's the cobra kai?

Responding to the question of encountering someone with more skills than I... I'm really average as it relates to skills with blades, hand guns and my hands, so I've encountered lots of guys better than I. But, most people who have had the discipline to learn to do more than pull a trigger also don't look to get into situations that require the use of those skills. However, if I were in that situation....I would resort to what ever tool was most capable of handling the situation....whether that be my hands, a pen, a wrench, a blade, a toothpick, a gun or whatever. My last option would be posting up on some one to pull a trigger. But that's me.