I wish this was an April Fool's joke....

[TFOGGuys]

$322M Paid for not a single helicopter (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/04/helo-fiasco-us.html)

And these are the same folks that are going to "save" our economy.


I am going to apply to the .gov for a contract to provide "Magic Invisible Pacification Dust" to the Iraqi government for the purposes of reducing insurgency. As the sole producer of MIPD and it's classified and secret delivery systems, I will accept a no-bid contract in the amount of $1.5B. Delivery to commence within 1 year of receiving 50% payment in cash (used, nonsequential bills preferred).

[dirkterrell]

And people actually want the government to run health care...

Dirik

[Shea]

And people actually want the government to run health care...

Dirik

They're going to run our banking system and the car industry...what's one more?

[dirkterrell]

They're going to run our banking system and the car industry...what's one more?

What do you mean "going to"?

Dirk

[d3spair]

That's almost as bad as the pallets of cash they shipped around on exposed trucks.. oh they disappeared (of course).

[Shea]

What do you mean "going to"?

Dirk

Sorry..."are".

[DFab]

These are not the same folks who are going to "save" the economy. This is a DOD fuck up, plus the contract was written 2 years ago.

Nobody wants the government to run healthcare, we want the government to run single payer health INSURANCE.

[Shea]

Nobody wants the government to run healthcare, we want the government to run single payer health INSURANCE.

Uh, yeah...semantics. Government being, in essence a giant HMO, dictating coverage, rates and available services. No difference, but we know where you're coming from.

How about this Jim:

We spend $30 BILLION dollars to bailout GM because they are "too big to fail" and because "bankruptcy is not an option". Then, all of the sudden:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090331/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_henderson

So basically we spent $30 BILLION for nothing?! Frickin' geniuses...yeah I want these idiots telling me how to live my life...

[= Buckeye Jess =]

... we want the government to run single payer health INSURANCE.

We do????

[dirkterrell]

Nobody wants the government to run healthcare, we want the government to run single payer health INSURANCE.

Umm, yeah, like there would be any real difference between the two.

Dirk

[Shea]

We do????

You know you do...resistance is futile.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

You know you do...resistance is futile.
Must....
resist!

I can't even begin to imagine the nightmare that whole scenario would leave in its wake....crimeny!

[Shea]

Must....
resist!

I can't even begin to imagine the nightmare that whole scenario would leave in its wake....crimeny!

Well that's because you (and Dirk and me) are just cold-hearted, right-wing thugs hell bent on crushing the underclasses beneath our steel-toed boots.

Just sayin'

[= Buckeye Jess =]

Only if we crush 'em all hard enough that they are beyond the need for their government issued, monopolized health nazi insurance....

LOL... I love ya Shea!

[Shea]

Only if we crush 'em all hard enough that they are beyond the need for their government issued, monopolized health nazi insurance....

LOL... I love ya Shea!

How many times do I have to say it? IF IT COMES FROM LOVE IT'S NOT TYRANNY!!!

Zeig Heil!

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/medli1/hello-kitty-hitler_thumbnail.jpg?t=1238614871

[= Buckeye Jess =]

Oh wait...there was just a Hitler kitteh thread on here yesterday I think!!! lol

[Snowman]

And again, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle at work…
You people are just too predictable.

[TFOGGuys]

If you like AmTrak and the Postal service, you'll LOVE nationalized health care :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Shea]

If you like AmTrak and the Postal service, you'll LOVE nationalized health care :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

But, but...it's free Jim...

[= Buckeye Jess =]

Seriously Jim...do NOT get me started on this whole topic! I see how some folks would see it as an advantage in their select situations....but for crying out loud... I'll pack it up, move to my own private island and tend to my own wounds before I let the government run my health care or insurance - thank you.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

But, but...it's free Jim...
*sobs* :cry::cry::cry::cry:

[Wintermute]

You're surprised that military contracting under the Bush was corrupt? It was/still is a giant hog trough full of money for political cronies, always has been, but reached all-time levels under Bush.

As far as universal health care, I designed and developed a management reporting system for Truman Health Center in Kansas City 2 years ago. Truman is a "Provider of Last Resort" for the uninsured in the KC metro area, and I was neck-deep in their books. Lemme tell you, it wasn't pretty.

When an ambulance picks up some uninsured person having a heart attack, they call around to see who'll take the poor bastard. When every other hospital turns them away, they dump him in TMC's ER.

Then Truman Medical Center gets the privilege of eating the $250,000 charge for that heart attack. Which they then turn around and try to cover by getting more money from the feds and state. So we do have universal health care in this country, hell even Bush admitted to it one time: ERs in our rapidly-dwindling public hospitals. And we end up paying for it through the feds and states anyway.

The stupid thing is, if that heart attack patient had coverage, maybe his condition could have been treated preventatively for a few thousand in drugs instead of a $250k hospital stay. That's why health care is cheaper in societies with universal coverage. Here we let conditions worsen and pay 10 times more in curative instead of cheap preventative medicine.

Cue "Let em die" whining...

[AirAssault]

How many of you that bitch and moan about universal health care have ever lived in a country that has had such a system? If you haven't then you basically have no clue what you're talking about and should shut up about the subject. Why shouldn't every citizen of this country have the same health care that all the douchebags in our Congress have, or that of our military members? No one should go broke because they got sick......

[Shea]

How many of you that bitch and moan about universal health care have ever lived in a country that has had such a system? If you haven't then you basically have no clue what you're talking about and should shut up about the subject. Why shouldn't every citizen of this country have the same health care that all the douchebags in our Congress have, or that of our military members? No one should go broke because they got sick......


Long, long conversations with a friend who is an ER doc in Vancouver.

But let me ask you this, why are your decisions my responsibility?

[= Buckeye Jess =]

How many of you that bitch and moan about universal health care have ever lived in a country that has had such a system? If you haven't then you basically have no clue what you're talking about and should shut up about the subject. Why shouldn't every citizen of this country have the same health care that all the douchebags in our Congress have, or that of our military members? No one should go broke because they got sick......
Well as someone that is chin deep in this country's medical crisis as a patient and a worker both, I think I have a few things to say about it. I don't want the same coverage as every Joe on the street. I want to be afforded the luxury of CHOOSING the kind of coverage I have. I want to dictate my own health care and not be forced into anything. Universal coverage works for some folks, I've heard every argument on both sides of the fence. If you like it and want it, then move to where you can get it!
I want a healthy competition between the companies offering me their policies. I sure as hell don't want some politician in DC telling me what is best for me or my body, nor do I want them dictating HOW I care for myself by choosing my health insurance!

[Snowman]

I think Jess is started…

[TFOGGuys]

How many of you that bitch and moan about universal health care have ever lived in a country that has had such a system? If you haven't then you basically have no clue what you're talking about and should shut up about the subject. Why shouldn't every citizen of this country have the same health care that all the douchebags in our Congress have, or that of our military members? No one should go broke because they got sick......

If it ended at universal emergency care, that might be ok. In the UK, the NHS is so awful, anyone who can afford private insurance/care does so. My objection is this: I have been to the doctor a grand total of twice in the last 28 years. I pay for so so insurance through my wife's work, just in case of a catastophic incident. Under a nationalized system, my contribution (tax burden) is averaged with the douchebags that call an ambulance every time they get the hiccoughs. Thus, I get to pay as much or more as "frequent flyers", as the EMTs at Denver Health call them, since I actually PAY income/self employment taxes. Add in a new and greater bureaucracy to make things less efficient, and my value for dollar invested is even lower. It's also hard to imagine that any nationalized health system is going to attract the best talent (think about the DMV :shocked:).

[= Buckeye Jess =]

When an ambulance picks up some uninsured person having a heart attack, they call around to see who'll take the poor bastard. When every other hospital turns them away, they dump him in TMC's ER.

Then Truman Medical Center gets the privilege of eating the $250,000 charge for that heart attack. Which they then turn around and try to cover by getting more money from the feds and state. So we do have universal health care in this country, hell even Bush admitted to it one time: ERs in our rapidly-dwindling public hospitals. And we end up paying for it through the feds and states anyway.

Uhh...maybe things are run different in KC, but that's not how it flies in Colorado. I pick up a person having a heart attack or any true emergency, they go to the closest appropriate (as in the right docs and equipment) facility for that particular emergency. Any hospital that gets any federal funds (read: Medicare/aid) is not allowed to refuse an EMERGENT patient based on their ability to pay. EMTALA protects the patient that is truly having a crisis/emergency. This also goes along with facilities designated as trauma centers or cardiac centers and such. Even when those ER's are on divert to ambulance traffic, any activation (trauma, cardiac, stroke..etc) overrides the diversion. The hospital MUST accept that patient and at a minimum, stabilize them. After the patient is stabilized, they can then ship them out as they deem prudent.

You'll hear about ERs refusing to treat patients after they are briefly assessed and it is determined that they are not suffering an emergency. Seems to me that one of the University hospitals (can't remember if this was here or back in OH) tried to institute a policy where they would do this assessment and charge the non-emergent folks accordingly. If I remember correctly, it didn't last long.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

I think Jess is started…
LOL....I'm honestly trying to hold back here b/c it gets to the point that I get so damned pissed off that I cease to speak in laymen's terms and be sensible.

[Wintermute]

Did you read my post above, Gixxer? I explained how we, all of us including you, are already paying for it. Paying too much for it.

[Snowman]

LOL....I'm honestly trying to hold back here b/c it gets to the point that I get so damned pissed off that I cease to speak in laymen's terms and be sensible.You start calling people Nazis don’t you.

[Wintermute]

Thanks for the info, Jess. Why would I piss you off?

My point is still valid. After the patient is stabilized, where do they go? They don't just magically disappear. They go to the POLR.

Also the biggie is providing cheap preventative instead of curative care.

[Shea]

Did you read my post above, Gixxer? I explained how we, all of us including you, are already paying for it. Paying too much for it.

My question still stands Winter. We can talk about the "truly needy" and then we can talk about the rest of us. I think Jess spoke to your post and I can back it up with my own experiences (and EMT friends).

But it still comes down to, why are your decisions my responsibility? Answer that and then we can discuss Universal Health Care/Single Payer Insurance, whatever the name du jour is...

[dirkterrell]

How many of you that bitch and moan about universal health care have ever lived in a country that has had such a system? If you haven't then you basically have no clue what you're talking about and should shut up about the subject.

I lived in Canada for a year, so I guess that means I get to have an opinion? And how do you know what people know and don't know about a subject? Let people speak and refute their claims.

Dirk

[= Buckeye Jess =]

Thanks for the info, Jess. Why would I piss you off?

My point is still valid. After the patient is stabilized, where do they go? They don't just magically disappear. They go to the POLR.

Also the biggie is providing cheap preventative instead of curative care.
Nah, the pissed comment wasn't about you or your post wintermute! Twas in response to Randal trying to egg me on. Trust me, I love a healthy debate on the topic (even if I do get worked up about it,) but I can't stand being told that I don't know anything about socialized medicine or anything about medicine in general until I've experienced it elsewhere.

[Wintermute]

Because we live in a society, Gix. Societies, starting with families and working your way up, take care of the sick and defenseless.

It's a big part of what separates us from animals.

There is a mile of middle ground between a nanny state and the expensive, inept neglect of our current system.

[Snowman]

Nah, the pissed comment wasn't about you or your post wintermute! Twas in response to Randal trying to egg me on.
Hmm egg and warm oatmeal…
This is sounding better all the time. :)

[Shea]

Because we live in a society, Gix. Societies, starting with families and working your way up, take care of the sick and defenseless.

It's a big part of what separates us from animals.

There is a mile of middle ground between a nanny state and the expensive, inept neglect of our current system.

So your solution is for an immense takeover of 17% of the GDP of the country by an inept, inefficient, bureaucratic nightmare? One that, frankly is near impossible for us to pay for?

You decisions are NOT my responsibility period. You choose to smoke, why should I pay for your cancer treatment? Because we live in a "society"? Sorry, come up some with something a little more persuasive then that.

You want to ask me for help with medical bills, ok. You want to FORCE me to pay for your medical bills through government coercion? That is something completely different.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

My point is still valid. After the patient is stabilized, where do they go? They don't just magically disappear. They go to the POLR.

Also the biggie is providing cheap preventative instead of curative care.
I will admit... there is a breakdown in the system at this point, but I don't think it is because we don't have universal healthcare. It is difficult to pinpoint one specific thing that put us where we are, but it is a rather cumulative issue.

I agree 100% though that we need to work more on the preventative side of things!

To further respond to the attack on those of us that have never lived in places with socialized medicine.... so what? I have medical insurance and always have. I've had a number of medical issues in the recent past including a week in the ICU over the summer. Despite the fact that I have insurance, I'm still strapped over a barrel b/c of the costs. Would a universal healthcare plan fix that situation? Maybe, but I'm not convinced it would. I'll gladly take getting leaned over and screwed on costs as opposed to not being able to dictate my own care and make my own choices. Don't you EVER restrict my freedom of choice on who cares for me, where they care for me and how they do it!

[Shea]

Why I don't want UHC:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090401/ap_on_re_us/frequent_er_patients

[TFOGGuys]

So your solution is for an immense takeover of 17% of the GDP of the country by an inept, inefficient, bureaucratic nightmare? One that, frankly is near impossible for us to pay for?

You decisions are NOT my responsibility period. You choose to smoke, why should I pay for your cancer treatment? Because we live in a "society"? Sorry, come up some with something a little more persuasive then that.

You want to ask me for help with medical bills, ok. You want to FORCE me to pay for your medical bills through government coercion? That is something completely different.

Speaking of government coercion....

GIVE act passes Senate (http://www.nowpublic.com/world/update-military-slavery-law-aka-give-act-passes-senate)

[= Buckeye Jess =]

Why I don't want UHC:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090401/ap_on_re_us/frequent_er_patients
Grrrr... and these are the same SOB's that bitch and moan because they have to wait six hours in the waiting room to get seen while we are thumping on the chest of the dude having the big one!

Go to a primary care doc or god forbid...an urgent care for your flipping sore throat next time and John Q. Taxpayer won't have to pay $3k for it! Don't get me wrong..I understand that there are very specific instances where someone may need to seek care in an ER for a non emergency - but nowhere NEAR the numbers that replace their PCPs with ERs.

[Wintermute]

So your solution is for an immense takeover of 17% of the GDP of the country by an inept, inefficient, bureaucratic nightmare? One that, frankly is near impossible for us to pay for?

You decisions are NOT my responsibility period. You choose to smoke, why should I pay for your cancer treatment? Because we live in a "society"? Sorry, come up some with something a little more persuasive then that.

You want to ask me for help with medical bills, ok. You want to FORCE me to pay for your medical bills through government coercion? That is something completely different.

Like I said, there's a lot of middle ground between providing coverage to those that don't have any and "an immense takeover." I know that answer doesn't play in the black/white, "Is my side winning?" bullshit game that politics has devolved into in this country.

We can't really run the British NHS-style system here. There are too many companies and jobs tied up in the current insurance and health industry to scrap it and completely start over. From what I've seen, it'll be an insurance plan for those that don't have any coverage here.

Anyway, you're already paying. Through more expensive care and public support of those without. Through the loss of national productivity due to preventable illnesses. Through people put in the poor house and no longer paying taxes to maintain the roads you drive on.

[Rhino]

Cue "Let em die" common sense :hibye:

Can I be part of the "steel-toed Jack Boot Thug club" now?


Speaking of government coercion....

GIVE act passes Senate (http://www.nowpublic.com/world/update-military-slavery-law-aka-give-act-passes-senate)

How else is the Chosen One going to get his army?

Obama's Civilian National Security Force: "just as powerful, just as well-funded as our military" (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2211800/posts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdF5TQIv1fU&feature=PlayList&p=91276792B3D84851&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=104 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s)


“We’re not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army.” :shocked:

http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/obama-organizing-for-america-volunteer-we-will-have-an-army/

[MikeG]

The IRS just needs to conduct a major audit on everyone up on Capitol Hill, that will solve our deficit

[Wintermute]

Look out Rhino, Obama's coming to put you in a Homoislamofascisthippie Reeducation
Camp because...well fuck, just because! No reason needed I guess. Man, even when I was in the grip of Bush Derangement Syndrome, I never theorized that Bush would create an international network of torture rooms and secret prisons.

Oh wait.


Mike, I'd be all for that. Throw in corporations operating out of tax havens and you got a deal.

[Rhino]

Look out Rhino, Obama's coming to put you in a Homoislamofascisthippie Reeducation
Camp because...well fuck, just because! No reason needed I guess. Man, even when I was in the grip of Bush Derangement Syndrome, I never theorized that Bush would create an international network of torture rooms and secret prisons.

Oh wait.



Yeah, I'm shaking in my Jack boots.

After all, we have the Posse Comitatus Act right? Oh, that only applies to the miltary and not the "National Security Force"? Well thats just neat. And you say the Kenyan was a constitutional lawyer and would know that? Double neat! Good the the .gov is looking out for our best interests, right? Guess Animal Farm wasn't on your list of required reading?

Your "society" comment was cute though. Our "society" is going to make Idiocracy look like a documentary in the near future. Hey, maybe we can put toilet water on the economy!

GO AWAY! BATIN!

[The Black Knight]

Speaking of government coercion....
GIVE act passes Senate (http://www.nowpublic.com/world/update-military-slavery-law-aka-give-act-passes-senate)
Yeah, here's the part of the bill I just loved:

‘SEC. 125. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

(a) Prohibited Activities- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not engage in the following activities:

(7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.

What basically means, any person/student accepting student loans is not allowed to practice religion?? Hmm, telling people they can't participate or go to church. Wow, what happened to the 1st Amendment?? I knew Obama didn't care for the Second Amendment, but to be perfectly honest this one didn't surprise me either.

Oh well, this is the "Change" everyone voted for. I hope they are enjoying it by the bucket loads.


Can I be part of the "steel-toed Jack Boot Thug club" now?

How else is the Chosen One going to get his army?

Obama's Civilian National Security Force: "just as powerful, just as well-funded as our military" (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2211800/posts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdF5TQIv1fU&feature=PlayList&p=91276792B3D84851&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=104 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s)


“We’re not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army.” :shocked:

http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/obama-organizing-for-america-volunteer-we-will-have-an-army/


You know what I found strangely odd about that 20 second video of Obama talking about having a "Civilian Army" in order to counter the Military?? Seems he's starting to show very definable characteristics of another super power from the ancient world. The Emperor of Rome(Caeser) had his own "Civilian Army"(Praetorians). And the Emperor(s) were usually very adamant about not allowing Generals to enter Rome at the head of their own commanding armies. Hmmmm, are we starting to see a dichotomy already of our leaders in Government vs. our Military leaders?? Time will tell...

[mtnairlover]

What people tend to overlook is that we/all of us are already paying for the uninsured. The thing I'd like to find out is what is the difference between what the insured (we) are paying now for the uninsured as compared to what it would cost to enable all people to become insured.

Oh and yeah, here's a chart to show what we are paying now for the uninsured in every state...

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l12/mtnairlover/costshift_chart.jpg

Here's something from the website...

Some mistakenly believe that the plight of the uninsured, and America’s failure to provide continuous quality health insurance for everyone, only affects those who are unable to find health insurance. But this is wrong.

The uninsured pay more for care—and get less—than those with insurance. But when the uninsured cannot pay, health care providers shift those costs to those who can pay—those who have insurance coverage. This leads to higher premiums for those who buy their insurance on the individual market, as well as workers who get insurance for themselves and their families through their job.

This “hidden tax” on health insurance arises from a failure to continuously cover all Americans and accounts for roughly 8 percent of the average health insurance premium. This cost-shift amounts to $1,100 per average family premium in 2009 and $410 per average individual premium. By 2013, assuming the cost shift remains the same percentage of premium costs, the cost shift will be approximately $480 for an individual policy and $1,300 for a family policy.



http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2009/03/cost_shift.html

[Shea]

Both Winter's and Cathy's argument is fallacious. You point out that we carry the burden of the uninsured then make the illogical leap to saying "we already pay for it so we might as well have universal health care".

Yes we pay more to cover the uninsured. We pay higher taxes as well for medicare/aid. However if we went to UHC, not only would we be paying for those people, we would also be paying for those that can afford it now. Instead of having the tax/premium burden for (according to Cathy's article) 87 million, we would have the tax/premium burden for 310 million. then add to that the general inefficiencies of any government program (and corruption) and our bill would be even higher.

We are either a free society that embraces individual liberty or we are not. You are either an adult, who takes responsibility for your actions and choices or you are not. You have no right to demand I pay for them (you, of course, can ask) and therefore cannot empower government with a right you do not possess.

Now we can talk about charity and caring for my fellow man, but that cannot be forced upon a citizen by an overreaching government, it can only come from one's own heart.

[dirkterrell]

Oh and yeah, here's a chart to show what we are paying now for the uninsured in every state...


Interesting that these guys find something quite different in California at least:

http://www.cfcepolicy.org/NR/rdonlyres/46C2B526-D9BF-4556-A310-37C3A7CDF53D/30/CFCE_Cost_Shift_Study.pdf


The paper reports two key findings:
• Cost shifting from Medicare and MediCal is substantial. If, in 2005, the revenues for every California hospital's Medicare and MediCal patients would have been sufficient to cover these patients' costs, then private-payer patients' revenue-to-cost ratio would have declined by 10.8 percentage points, from 1.309 to 1.201.

• Cost shifting from the uninsured is minimal. If, in 2005, the revenues for every California hospital's indigent patients would have been sufficient to cover these patients' costs, then private-payer patients' revenue-to-cost ratio would have declined by 1.4 percentage points, from 1.309 to 1.295.

These findings have several implications for current policy debates. State health policy reforms that seek to cover the currently uninsured are unlikely to lead to significant reductions in private insurance premiums, at least due to decreases in cost shifting. In contrast, increases in public-program reimbursement rates could have an economically important impact on premiums.Dirk

[Wintermute]

Both Winter's and Cathy's argument is fallacious.

[snip]

We are either a free society that embraces individual liberty or we are not. You are either an adult, who takes responsibility for your actions and choices or you are not. You have no right to demand I pay for them (you, of course, can ask) and therefore cannot empower government with a right you do not possess.

Now we can talk about charity and caring for my fellow man, but that cannot be forced upon a citizen by an overreaching government, it can only come from one's own heart.

You call my argument fallacious when you repeatedly insist that every medical malady is the direct result of some "choice." Exactly what "choice" did an out-of-work parent whose kid is diagnosed with leukemia make?

And like I said before, the gov't has the right to force you to pay your Country Club of America dues(taxes) or you can GTFO (give up citizenship) or go to jail.

[sky_blue]

I don't think he is saying that medical maladies are "choices"...but choosing to carry health insurance or not is the choice.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

You call my argument fallacious when you repeatedly insist that every medical malady is the direct result of some "choice." Exactly what "choice" did an out-of-work parent whose kid is diagnosed with leukemia make?


But isn't this where a program like Medicaid or a lot of the states' children's health care programs come into play? I'm not asking this as a slight against you, it is a genuine question.

I honestly have no problem helping those in need with those kinds of programs, but I don't want to end up in a situation where I am forced to give up my own private health care insurance. To be forced into a government controlled insurance, I would not have the options that I have now.

EDIT: Granted, these government programs are seriously strapped for funds and the whole medical process in our country could use a serious re-vamp, but I see UHC as making these situations even worse, not better!

[Shea]

You call my argument fallacious when you repeatedly insist that every medical malady is the direct result of some "choice." Exactly what "choice" did an out-of-work parent whose kid is diagnosed with leukemia make?

And like I said before, the gov't has the right to force you to pay your Country Club of America dues(taxes) or you can GTFO (give up citizenship) or go to jail.

Way to dodge the point I was making. And I didn't say "every medical malady is the direct result of some choice", but it's just easier to disregard my position by blowing it up.

Your defense of UHC was that we were already paying for the uninsured and therefore, it is more economical, fair and just to go ahead and pay for everyone's health care. My counter is that it is unjust to force people to pay for something that, in a free society, is a personal responsibility. You have a right to state your opinion, you have a right to self defense, you have absolutely no right, whatsoever, to demand I pay for your health care. You think differently, fair enough.

Yes government has the power (not a right) to enforce tax laws, and yes, I have the option of not paying them or go to jail. Your GTFO comment is idiotic, since the US is the last bastion (and diminishing very rapidly) of freedom from grossly excessive taxation. Is it just for me to pay 75% of the fruits of my labor in taxes? Cause that is what it will probably take in order to fund your utopia.

There are many aspects of our medical system that need to be addressed. Tort reform, medicare/aid reform, transparency of costs prior to service, insurance reform, etc. But instead of tackling these (and the entrenched political power behind them) the left just throw up their hands and say UHC!. Like that will make anything better in this country. All it does is put power into the hands of politicians, bureaucrats and further enslaves the citizenry to the government. For someone who claims to hate the "congress critters" you sure as hell want to just fork over a shitload of my freedom to them.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

lol...geez Shea.... I think you and I just said almost the same thing in two radically different ways!

[Wintermute]

Whoops, sorry about that. I guess the question should have been "Who chooses not to have health insurance that can afford it?" Greedy assholes? I'm with you, they can die.

Anyway, as long as my position is demagogued as being "Kill the insurance companies, outlaw private doctors, and enslave the populace!", this discussion is useless. That's never been my position and that's not Obama's. Like I said above, last I heard, they're looking at extending the insurance that Federal workers enjoy to the uninsured.

That's all I've heard. Outside of your taxes going to 179%, what plans have you actually heard? Once again, I want to learn.

[TFOGGuys]

More information on the original post:

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/04/emails-reveal-u.html


Sorry to unjack the thread...please continue sniping at each other :sniper:

[Shea]

Anyway, as long as my position is demagogued as being "Kill the insurance companies, outlaw private doctors, and enslave the populace!", this discussion is useless. That's never been my position and that's not Obama's. Like I said above, last I heard, they're looking at extending the insurance that Federal workers enjoy to the uninsured.

You've got the whole martyr thing down don't you... Where and when did I say that was your position? Quit putting words in my mouth Winter. You want to have a grown up discussion of the topic? Then quit being jello. We were talking about the philosophical underpinnings of why UHC is justified and why you feel the government has the right to force me to take responsibility for your life. Both of which you dodged quite eloquently, congrats.



That's all I've heard. Outside of your taxes going to 179%, what plans have you actually heard? Once again, I want to learn.

Well let's look at one states attempt to implement it:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010374

Sorry, I can't afford another $500 a month in taxes. Can you? Once again what gives you, government, or "society" the right to take my property for your life???

Obama's stated plan (during his campaign) would cost about 1-1.7 TRILLION. Add to that inflation, our rapidly aging population and general government inefficiency and that cost is probably no where near accurate.

But this is all academic as he is doing it anyway. His budget is paying for health insurance for 30 year old "children" (government's classification, not mine) and is a "down payment" on "health care reform". So much for being a free society.

[zetaetatheta]

Yeah, here's the part of the bill I just loved:

‘SEC. 125. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

(a) Prohibited Activities- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not engage in the following activities:

(7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.

What basically means, any person/student accepting student loans is not allowed to practice religion?? Hmm, telling people they can't participate or go to church. Wow, what happened to the 1st Amendment?? I knew Obama didn't care for the Second Amendment, but to be perfectly honest this one didn't surprise me either.


Nowhere do that say one can not practice their religion. Anyone can practice their faith, but they can not preach nor try to convert anyone. Sounds logical to me, as I don't want anyone trying to tell me what myths to believe in. I was in the military 20 yrs and the same rules applied. Organized religion and proselytization belongs with the fear mongers that profit from it.

[modette99]

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