Lead/Sweep roles

[Sean]

With a lot of talk about group rides and everybody wanting to chip in to help out, I'm curious to know what the true role of a lead or sweep should be. Here are how I've always seen them, I don't know if they are right?

Lead: set the pace for the group, know the route, hand signals, knowing if and when a pass is appropriate, very even tempered, etc?

Sweep:make sure everybody gets to the destination, good quick mechanical ability (in case of a breakdown), excellent riding abilities to help slower people with riding advise, very patient, etc


Here's what I found on a website. Not sure I agree with all of it, but a good rule of thumb.

Lead Bike: a person who rides in the most forward position in a group and who relays information to all other riders in the group via hand signals. The Lead Bike determines the group’s direction, speed, choice of lane, and formation. She or he often must make quick navigation decisions in the face of road hazards, changes in road surface conditions, poor signage, construction and other obstacles while maintaining control of her or his bike and communicating to those following. If there are three groups on a ride, there will be three Lead Bikes.

Sweep or Drag Bike: a person who rides in the last position in a group. The Sweep or Drag Bike must secure a lane for the rest of the group during lane changes into faster traffic (move first to block oncoming traffic) and close the door (move to block passing traffic) when a lane is lost in a merging lane situation. Usually this is the most experienced rider in a group, for the Sweep or Drag Bike is the rider who stops to assist a rider who has mechanical trouble, loses control, or drops out of a ride for some other reason. The Sweep or Drag Bike should be prepared to render aid to a downed or disabled rider in a group. If at all possible, the Sweep or Drag Bike should have a co-rider who can assist with traffic control if a serious problem arises. If there are three groups on a ride, there will be three Sweeps or Drag Bikes. The rider in this position is sometimes called the tail gunner.

http://www.mountainshadowriders.com/HandSignals.htm


Any thoughts/suggestions/contradications?

[MetaLord 9]

Yeah, those are that's generally what I end up thinking of when defining lead/sweep. The difference in a lot of I rides I end up on is that a good amount of pre-ride planning can supplant a fixed lead or sweep. The fast folks will take off and the ride often separates into packs of 2-3. Before everyone takes off, however, we discuss the next stopping point & the fast folks pull over after a little while or before making a turn. The sweep is pretty consistent and is always a skilled rider who can monitor the situation from the back with patience and who knows the route well in case the middle riders get lost. Towards the end of the season last year, most of us ended up being pretty mature about our riding and we sort of did away with a lead & a sweep and just made sure that everyone was looking out for each other. If you're in a pack with someone then you keep an eye on them & they'll keep an eye back on the next bike, etc. We always wait at the next stopping point and if we're waiting too long, then someone will double back to check up on the rear of the ride.

When taking new folks out or folks who are not used to the canyons, etc. a sweep can be very comforting. Newer folks tend to find out pretty quickly that the fast ones will be outta sight before you can really worry about trying to follow them. As long as the person at the front of each pack is confident enough to ride without following someone (and isn't screaming down the straights to keep up & then parking it in the corners) then the ride usually goes pretty well!

[Sean]

Good points! :up:

Also a little disclaimer: Every ride is different, it all depends on the size of the group, if you know them, what the pace is going to be, not every group needs a sweep, etc. I guess I'm thinking of the bigger group rides where everybody doesn't know each other. It's to get some thoughts out and maybe there are some newer riders who may not know all the things a lead/sweep may do. That's all.

[bodhizafa]

Good points! :up:

Also a little disclaimer: Every ride is different, it all depends on the size of the group, if you know them, what the pace is going to be, not every group needs a sweep, etc. I guess I'm thinking of the bigger group rides where everybody doesn't know each other. It's to get some thoughts out and maybe there are some newer riders who may not know all the things a lead/sweep may do. That's all.

A disclaimer? wow, you know some lawyer or something?

[mtnairlover]

Motorcycle Safety Foundation Guide To Group Riding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erpkyD7SMfw)


I was pretty nervous about group riding when I was a n00b, so things like this link helped me to feel more comfortable. Now, a lot of this stuff is just something that I do and I don't have to think about anymore. Some things are maybe a tad anal, but if you do everything to begin with and ride with people you know and are comfortable with, this stuff begins to fall into place and becomes what's normal for the whole group.

The link above is just a repeat of the site that Sean linked, but is a video instead of text and graphics.

[MetaLord 9]

Sean's right. If you know all the folks you ride with pretty well, then there's not necessarily a huge need for lead/sweeps, unless someone's new or uncomfortable, etc. For instance, when Girlie started riding, I was usually her sweep and the Pie was her lead and we were the rear pack of about 7-10 bikes on any given ride. As the season progressed and she really took to the bike & the canyons, she didn't need a sweep anymore as she was a confident rider. She still preferred to have Sweetie in front of her, but didn't need a "safety net" hang'n out behind her. She told me I could move up & ride with a fewer of the med-fast folks and she'd be ok. I think that's a normal progression too. You get to the point where you don't feel like you need a sweep, but you still prefer to have a lead or rider you trust in front of you. After awhile you get to the point where you're comfortable taking the corners on your own without someone leading you through them. Then you usually move up to a faster group. And remember, there's always a group that's faster than you!

[Sean]

A disclaimer? wow, you know some lawyer or something?:321: With this group of hooligans, it's a must. :hump:



I was pretty nervous about group riding when I was a n00b, so things like this link helped me to feel more comfortable.Exactly. Remember I even PM'd you before my first non-noob group ride. I think it's normal. And you made sure there was a sweep to help. One who gave me some great riding tips and never pushed me to go faster than I was comfortable with.


Sean's right. That's all anyone really needs to know. :up:

A must read for all group riders:
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html

[asp_125]

Even when riding with a bunch of "regulars", and more so on noob rides, it really helps if the sweep and lead have each other's phone numbers. Not that cell phones always work in the canyons, but that is a good back up plan. On other rides we have a 5 minute/5 mile rule, if you lose sight of the bike behind you and they don't show up after 5 minutes or 5 miles, somebody goes back for them (after first letting the others know of course).

[Matty]

Sweep or Drag Bike: a person who rides in the last position in a group. The Sweep or Drag Bike must secure a lane for the rest of the group during lane changes into faster traffic (move first to block oncoming traffic) and close the door (move to block passing traffic) when a lane is lost in a merging lane situation. Usually this is the most experienced rider in a group, for the Sweep or Drag Bike is the rider who stops to assist a rider who has mechanical trouble, loses control, or drops out of a ride for some other reason.

Which is why the Sweeper should not be someone who has only been riding a couple of years!!!

[MetaLord 9]

Which is why the Sweeper should not be someone who has only been riding a couple of years!!!
Matty, I swept a good number of our rides last year and this will only be my fourth season on a bike...

[Sean]

-it really helps if the sweep and lead have each other's phone numbers
-5 minute/5 mile ruleGood info!


Which is why the Sweeper should not be someone who has only been riding a couple of years!!!I think I have to agree with Metalord. Yes, they should be experienced, but time doesn't always equal a good rider.

[TFOGGuys]

So, would I be qualified to sweep? This is only my 25th season in Colorado :turtle:

[MetaLord 9]

So, would I be qualified to sweep? This is only my 25th season in Colorado :turtle:
I dunno, you have any mechanical experience? 'cause the article Sean posted says you need it! :D

[Matty]

Matty, I swept a good number of our rides last year and this will only be my fourth season on a bike...
like i said more than a couple of years... and the last time i checked four is considered more than a couple, so you're good!!!



It just seems like a lot of people want to jump on the bandwagon and volunteer to be lead/sweep.

To me those are hard jobs if done right.

The lead has to know where he's going. Is the first to come across obstacles in the road. At the same time signal to those behind him/her about the obstacles. Also they have to keep an eye on the riders behind them and make sure they're riding their own pace and not trying to play catch up. The leader should also work in conjuction with the sweeper to block traffic so people can get through then be able to get around the riders to be the lead bike again. Which is why 2 leaders is a good idea.

The sweep is even a harder job. Typically the sweep has to ride a lot slower of a pace. And since the sweep rider is usually a good rider it becomes tough to just sit back and ride mellow. You tend to lose focus and your eyes start to wander and not pay attention as much as you should. Also a sweep rider should be watching the riders in front of him/her to see if there's any advice they can give. By doing this, it's one more thing that causes the sweep rider to lose focus.

Me personally i like to ride in what i call the "Rover" position. I like to ride throughout the whole group work my way from right behind the Leader to right infront of the Sweeper and back again. Doing this i can see all the riders, i can help block traffic. I can also let the leader know to either slow or speed up the pace. This to me is another hard position, because you not only have to know how to ride well, but you have to take a few chances that some inexperienced riders are not familiar with. You also have to be able to pass other riders who are timid and nervous all along keeping a safe distance while passing.

Anyways..... this is just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

[MetaLord 9]

Good points Matty! I'd agree with you on a majority of them too. I think being eager to lead/sweep is good, but can be premature. I think that a lot of folks, especially newer riders, inexperienced riders, and low-confidence riders (pretty much anyone who considers themselves "slow") are apt to volunteer as sweeper since they don't want to hold anyone back. It's fine if your sweep is slower, but they definately shouldn't be inexperienced. I had one situation last year where I was sweeping and the slow pack actually waived me ahead. Since I knew they were ok, I passed on, but kept an eye on them. I stopped just past a spot where I as afraid they might make the wrong turn and, since it was the end of a long day of riding and we were all getting on the track to come home, they did. I turned around, went to find 'em, caught up, and by that time they'd realized they weren't on the right direction. After we stopped for a few minutes to get our bearings and figure out our way back, we got back on the road & caught up with our ride.

Knowing the route helps, and knowing that your ride will wait for you without being pissed or getting upset that you're taking your time, is key.

[Sean]

So, would I be qualified to sweep? This is only my 25th season in Colorado :turtle::no:...You ride? Okay, maybe for the noob ride only.


It just seems like a lot of people want to jump on the bandwagon and volunteer to be lead/sweep.

To me those are hard jobs if done right.Agree 100% which is why I started this thread. I think it's great that people want to help, but it's important to know how you're supposed to help and if you're the right person for the job.

[asp_125]

I think newer folks wanting to lead & sweep should ride second behind the lead, and ahead of the sweep. They can learn a lot by watching. That way it's not the usual suspects doing all the work and getting burnt out and they can take away those skills for future rides.

[Matty]

Good info!

Yes, they should be experienced, but time doesn't always equal a good rider.
Sorry buddy... but i have to disagree.

More seat time = more experiance. Yes, they are a few exceptions.

I've been riding for 10 years and there are still new things i come across everytime i hop on my bike.

[MetaLord 9]

I think it's less a time thing, and more a mileage thing. If you've got more mileage under your belt having ridden two years than someone who's been riding four, then you've probably got more actual experience. That's not to say that 2000 miles on the highway beats 1000 miles in the canyons, but some folks winterize their bikes or use them as commuters, or just dont' pile on the miles year after year. I probably had ove 10k miles on my bike the first time I hit the canyons but I was a straight up n00b when I did. Since then, I've put on another 10k and, while definately not as fast as Matty & some others, I defiantely feel I'm much more experienced and I'm comfortable sweeping or leading a small group of slow to med riders

[Matty]

I think it's less a time thing, and more a mileage thing. If you've got more mileage under your belt having ridden two years than someone who's been riding four, then you've probably got more actual experience. That's not to say that 2000 miles on the highway beats 1000 miles in the canyons, but some folks winterize their bikes or use them as commuters, or just dont' pile on the miles year after year.

Very true.. which is why i wrote more seat time = more experiance. Along with the few exceptions part.

[Sean]

Sorry buddy... but i have to disagree. :vader: That's it you little son-of-a ...j/k. It's all good. I agree for the most part. And I also agree that there are exceptions. Especially with seat time.

[Nick_Ninja]

The more seat time you have the less you sweep rides and the more you lead rides ---------- usually with no one following.

[DevilsTonic]

See I thought that the leader was supposed to ignore everyone especially those that require a potty / insulin break every 5 minutes and not wait for those that obviously can't keep the pace.

The sweeper is supposed to smile and wave when the rider in front of him crashes and then zoom by spitting gravel and debris all over the fallen rider.

;) Ya learn something new every day.

[Nick_Ninja]

^^ very cold dear.

[DevilsTonic]

^^ very cold dear.:lol: ......and?

[Sean]

The more seat time you have the less you sweep rides and the more you lead rides ---------- usually with no one following.Thank you for infinate wisdom N_N :lol: You've been doing group rides since they invented the combustible engine, are we missing anything?


;) Ya learn something new every day.
You're such a smart ass! :alien:

[mtnairlover]

In my tiny lil group way up in the great white north when I started riding with them, I ended up leading after a few rides under my belt, because I know the mountain roads. I would ride endlessly by myself, getting used to as much of those roads as possible. After I bought the Zed and after a year of riding and one crash later, I helped to organize a long-ass group ride to parts southwest. One of the things we did that is mentioned in group rides is we shared our medical and vital info with everyone else.

By the end of that season (07, I think), I was leading rides all over the place. I put about 9000 miles on my bike that year.

So, for me, I guess I kinda break the "experience" mold. But, then I did log a whole butt-load of miles (all puns intended).

At this point, I don't mind where I am in a group...lead, middle, sweep...although mentioning that the sweep should have mechanical knowledge would probably knock me out of that role (which I didn't know about until now).

So, I guess to add to the experience argument, I would put it this way:
Experience = miles/roads travelled

[Sortarican]

So, would I be qualified to sweep? This is only my 25th season in Colorado :turtle:

My question also.
I also have been riding for 25+ years..... but I'm still slow and erratic.

Though I can do more with bailing wire and duct tape than most can with full set of snap-on tools and a CNC machine
I can field dress a human of all donatable organs using only a pocket knife and igloo cooler.

So in case of breakdowns or fatal crashes....I got that going for me.

[rapparee]

I can field dress a human of all donatable organs using only a pocket knife and igloo cooler.

So you have found a new source of income eh?:)

[Matty]

So you have found a new source of income eh?:)
Hahahaha....

[DevilsTonic]

You're such a smart ass! :alien:indeed

[MetaLord 9]

indeed
nice add. :jerkoff:

:D

[Slo]

Matty and Metalord hit the nail on the head about some details on sweepers..... Seen this happen first hand, but also seen how a sweeper ended up passing others after a few turns, this should never happen no matter what the situation is.

Once you take up the sweep position, you pretty much have given up your own ride to ensure the safety of others.....depending on who your riding with. Even more experienced groups usually always have someone sweeping for accountability reasons, but the ride is not sacrificed due to all being well-seasoned.

[Matty]

Matty and Metalord hit the nail on the head about some details on sweepers..... Seen this happen first hand, but also seen how a sweeper ended up passing others after a few turns, this should never happen no matter what the situation is.
Yep if you volunteer to Sweep than that is your position till either you are relieved or you get someone to take over.

[honey]

Something to keep in mind is that lead and sweep are to help in providing a safe(r) ride for everyone in the group, not comfortability with each other (that usually comes naturally - as stated by several others). In some instances the lead and sweep will have some sort of communication (two-way etc.) during the entire ride.

[Slo]

Sweeper should also be familiar with the route and destination in case the group gets split up. Along with having a couple different people within the group familiar with the route as well.....

One thing to point out is that in a group ride, every person has responsibilities; passing hand signals for road debris, police, whatever the case may be. But I think one that is over looked often is each person watching once in a while for the rider behind them, making sure they are still there. With this happening, no group gets split up by more than a few minutes and eventually it works it's way to the front lead person.....