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FortitudoX
Tue May 12th, 2009, 01:27 AM
Soo I've been wasting a lot of time on you tube watching some good and not so good motorcycle videos. I've been playing the this is what you did wrong game at other people's expense and was a little unsure about this fellow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3w8BOO1C3I&feature=related

I watched it a dozen times and it doesn't really seem like the bike slid out but it ran out of power and couldn't hold the line. From the sound of it there isn't much throttle...any thoughts?

LambeauXLIV
Tue May 12th, 2009, 01:37 AM
It looks like he got scared with the lean angle and tried to compensate some how.

FZRguy
Tue May 12th, 2009, 03:32 AM
It kinda looks like he started dragging hard parts which caused the tires to lose traction and the resulting low-side.

charlesard1
Tue May 12th, 2009, 04:37 AM
Was fear pure and simple. I have seen it cause more than one crash. They werent bikers; one was a videographer and the other a wanna be rider who became an actor in a minor tragedy.

BHeth
Tue May 12th, 2009, 06:11 AM
The cause? Lack of skills and overall squidliness! Poor line selection. His body is on the wrong side of the road several times. Going slow, yet still not having much margin for error. Wow, there was a lot wrong with that vid. He was an accident waiting to happen.

MetaLord 9
Tue May 12th, 2009, 07:52 AM
It kinda looks like he started dragging hard parts which caused the tires to lose traction and the resulting low-side.
Agreed. Whether or not it was fear that caused him to chop the throttle I dunno, but it looks like he caught his toe or the peg & it scared the crap outta him. My money's on he was sticking his leg & toe out. If he catches the toe & his weight's in the wrong place then there's nothing to keep his body from pushing the bike down, which is what looks like what happened

XJ600s
Tue May 12th, 2009, 08:07 AM
Initially I thought he hit the yellow line with his rear tire, and if it was wet at all, it could have caused the slide out.

Then I read everyones comments and saw what he did with his foot/leg. Looked almost like he was going to center his body but realized the turn was still a little sharper so he stuck his leg back out a bit. Probably the scraping a toe or peg that did it to him.

Did anyone else notice the distinct start-up music of the Valentine 1 Radar system in the car?! That was the first thing I noticed...haha

Matrix
Tue May 12th, 2009, 08:08 AM
Its hard to tell but his front tire may have hit the yellow paint as well.

dirkterrell
Tue May 12th, 2009, 08:12 AM
Too much lean angle (cold tires too) and he tucked the front. With better body positioning he could have made that turn with probably half the lean angle he had. His body is crossed up something fierce with his outside shoulder to the outside of the tank instead of over the middle of the tank.

This is a great example of what Bueller was referring to in the "I got my knee down" thread when he referred to the likely horrible body positioning in doing so. If you're going hard enough to get your knee down on the street with good body positioning, you're going way to fast for the street.

Dirk

Sean
Tue May 12th, 2009, 08:24 AM
His body is crossed up something fierce with his outside shoulder to the outside of the tank instead of over the middle of the tank. Yeah, his head was way back over the tank. Also, he puts his leg out and then pulls it back. Like something spooked him.

Slo
Tue May 12th, 2009, 08:38 AM
Yeah, his head was way back over the tank. Also, he puts his leg out and then pulls it back. Like something spooked him.
+1


Too much lean angle (cold tires too) and he tucked the front. With better body positioning he could have made that turn with probably half the lean angle he had. His body is crossed up something fierce with his outside shoulder to the outside of the tank instead of over the middle of the tank.

Exactly, obviously it was a "look at me" video, cold tires (only went through a few turns), lack of skill... First real right hander, and he almost doesn't even make the turn, if the turn would have gone further, he would have crossed the yellow.

Cold tires + lack of skill + watch me on video = bad results

BigE
Tue May 12th, 2009, 09:04 AM
I'm in the he pinched his foot between bike and road and freaked out group.
As for the "cold tire" argument...well, my opinion is unless he was on race take-offs he should have had plenty of grip for his apparent speed and road condition. Street tires are made to work at a wide range of temps and doing the "warm-up my tires weave" as this guy does at the beginning is just plain squidliness and does nothing for actually warming up tires.
Like I said, MY opinion.

denver_whitest185
Tue May 12th, 2009, 09:41 AM
looks like his rear tire lost traction. probably got a lifted by touching his hard parts/foot.

doesn't actually look like that bad of a corner either...

Kim-n-Dean
Tue May 12th, 2009, 11:11 AM
Too much lean angle (cold tires too) and he tucked the front. With better body positioning he could have made that turn with probably half the lean angle he had. His body is crossed up something fierce with his outside shoulder to the outside of the tank instead of over the middle of the tank.

This is a great example of what Bueller was referring to in the "I got my knee down" thread when he referred to the likely horrible body positioning in doing so. If you're going hard enough to get your knee down on the street with good body positioning, you're going way to fast for the street.

DirkAaaamen!! Terrible body position!!! I've riden with people like this. Some even make sure they're not riding too fast for me. LMAO Track baby!! Speed limits = cheaper insurance!!



I'm in the he pinched his foot between bike and road and freaked out group.
As for the "cold tire" argument...well, my opinion is unless he was on race take-offs he should have had plenty of grip for his apparent speed and road condition. Street tires are made to work at a wide range of temps and doing the "warm-up my tires weave" as this guy does at the beginning is just plain squidliness and does nothing for actually warming up tires.
Like I said, MY opinion.
I'm torn. He does do something weird with his left leg right before he biffs it. Either way, one word - unskilled

wankel7
Tue May 12th, 2009, 12:34 PM
It looks like the reason the bike crashed was because a hard part dug into the ground. I would say the weird thing he did with his foot was the foot peg being pushed up by the feeler. And he was reacting to that weird feeling.

Right after he did the foot dance the bike seemed to bite into the ground and just fall over. The bike was steady before that.

But his riding position was bad. His lower body seemed okish. But his upper body/head was just glued to the center of the bike.

I remember the first time I pushed my foot peg up at the track. I really started focusing on body position after that. Just glad I did it at the track.

BigE
Tue May 12th, 2009, 12:44 PM
snip...
Either way, one word - unskilled

And everyone says.......














UMMM....Yup!!!!

Kodak courage, baby! :lol:

FortitudoX
Tue May 12th, 2009, 03:02 PM
Yah he deffintly touched something to the pavement which caused the reflex-like knee tuck. It almost seems like he tried to adjust his posistioning and as a result and almost forced the bike down. I don't really see a tire slip-out being the cause of the slide because he's seems to only be going 20-30ish and the turn isn't 'that' bad.

Either way he certainly lacked skill and was trying to show off for the cam.

Hmm I watched it a couple more times and it looks like the road rises in elevation unexpectidly, causes the over-lean and probably the scrape.

Anyways interesting discussion!

Bueller
Tue May 12th, 2009, 05:17 PM
Sitting on top pushing bike down, leaning it way too much and hits paint with front tire at excess lean angle, looses front a bit, but since the bike is over so far that that little bit is enough to drag other hard parts, unweighted tires..........lowside

King Nothing
Tue May 12th, 2009, 05:25 PM
Bueller did it. Bueller made him crash.

Bueller
Tue May 12th, 2009, 09:22 PM
Bueller did it. Bueller made him crash.
Indeed!

Jim_Vess
Tue May 12th, 2009, 09:46 PM
Having his head up his ass as far as he did screwed up his body position.

BeoBe
Wed May 13th, 2009, 01:42 PM
the guy seemed like a real sketchy rider from the get go, was all over huggin the yellow like and crap.. Hard telling if he just seen himself going over the yellow line and freaked out to get it back across or just leaned into it more then he is use to..

Must suck only getting a 1:10 ride before you eat it.... all hail the squids

Clovis
Thu May 14th, 2009, 02:00 PM
I'm suprised no one else pointed this out, but at the start of the video you see the speed limit is 30 mph... he appeared to be traveling faster then 30! =P

But yeah, I watched the crash part about a dozen times -- his toe seems to catch and while I can't tell for sure it looks like the front tire hit the paint line which tends to be pretty smooth, especially on cold tires with an excessive lean angle.

But like someone else said, it really was the biker just showing off without the skill, like sticking his knee out trying to drag -- we've all done it when trying to learn but I think he's a victim of showing off for the camera =P

At least he was wearing full gear though so probably wasn't hurt, but did anyone else notice his helmet fell off? Just after impact, it looks like his helmet went flying off but it could have been the front fairing breaking off; kind of ironic to wear a suit but forget to secure the chin strap!

-Clov

1ofakindRR
Thu May 14th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Initially I thought he hit the yellow line with his rear tire, and if it was wet at all, it could have caused the slide out.

Then I read everyones comments and saw what he did with his foot/leg. Looked almost like he was going to center his body but realized the turn was still a little sharper so he stuck his leg back out a bit. Probably the scraping a toe or peg that did it to him.

Did anyone else notice the distinct start-up music of the Valentine 1 Radar system in the car?! That was the first thing I noticed...haha
That was what I thought as soon as he fell. Those lines are like ice in a full lean or when they're wet.

SaShWhO
Thu May 14th, 2009, 04:32 PM
[quote=Clovis;451039]I'm suprised no one else pointed this out, but at the start of the video you see the speed limit is 30 mph... he appeared to be traveling faster then 30! =P


surely no one has ever riden faster than 30 on the dragon so no wonder.

dues201
Fri May 15th, 2009, 11:50 AM
thought I had it,

Ricky
Fri May 15th, 2009, 03:41 PM
To me it looks like one of his rear spools hits, causing the rear tire to lose road contact.

Slo
Fri May 15th, 2009, 03:49 PM
You would think that he would have lost it long before one of his rear spools touches the ground especially with street tires....

racedk6
Fri May 15th, 2009, 10:59 PM
Looks like he over loaded the front with weight. He was putting alot of pressure on the front tire. Then add in the correction he tried making mid turn, with an abrupt movement.

sloridr
Fri May 15th, 2009, 10:59 PM
I'm thinking drug something. It looks like the back wheel picked up slightly?.

tarded400
Fri May 22nd, 2009, 08:34 PM
No one said dropped a gear mid-corner.... Sure what it looks like to me.

dues201
Tue May 26th, 2009, 09:46 AM
Looks like he over loaded the front with weight. He was putting alot of pressure on the front tire. Then add in the correction he tried making mid turn, with an abrupt movement.


I'll buy this one.

kawasakirob
Tue Jun 16th, 2009, 04:17 PM
Looks like his peg hit and then his foot caught and jerked his foot off. From there it probably scared him and he locked the front brake. Really nice bike. I had the same thing happen to me(foot got caught and it almost.....almost wiped me out). I don't know why everyone is calling him a goober. He can already lean it over to touch the feelers. At least he is getting his pucks down when he wears them...........

UglyDogRacing
Tue Jun 16th, 2009, 04:57 PM
http://smiliesftw.com/x/127fs4573872.gif

racedk6
Tue Jun 16th, 2009, 09:53 PM
Looks like his peg hit and then his foot caught and jerked his foot off. From there it probably scared him and he locked the front brake. Really nice bike. I had the same thing happen to me(foot got caught and it almost.....almost wiped me out). I don't know why everyone is calling him a goober. He can already lean it over to touch the feelers. At least he is getting his pucks down when he wears them...........

One you should never have to lean a bike to drag the pegs or feelers on the ground.

Two getting your knee down isnt always the fastest way around a corner. Bad body positioning is the cause of alot of crashes.

I dont understand why rider error is never the first explaination for a crash. I always tend to find people blaming the equipment before themselves.

kawasakirob
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 12:48 AM
One you should never have to lean a bike to drag the pegs or feelers on the ground.

Two getting your knee down isnt always the fastest way around a corner. Bad body positioning is the cause of alot of crashes.



Why do you run rearsets? Why do racers wear sliders? The RC has some of the gnarliest peg feelers out there.I agree with sometimes having your knee down is not the fastest way around the corner(look at Rossi), I was pointing out that he had his gear and obviously felt comfy with his leanings, or until something happened. Rider error does play a massive error in wrecks(unless you were Hopkins or Kenny Jr. riding the GSVR awhile back). I never said it did not. Feet positioning, body positioning, whatever(look at spies positiong, Rossi's stature vs. Pedrosa?). GP guys drag hardparts, and I am damn sure they are better than you and I combined.

kawasakirob
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 01:05 AM
Two getting your knee down isnt always the fastest way around a corner. Bad body positioning is the cause of alot of crashes.



http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0emm7Bi3uk3eh/610x.jpg

Totally shitty body positioning

racedk6
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 01:13 AM
Why do you run rearsets? Why do racers wear sliders? The RC has some of the gnarliest peg feelers out there.I agree with sometimes having your knee down is not the fastest way around the corner(look at Rossi), I was pointing out that he had his gear and obviously felt comfy with his leanings, or until something happened. Rider error does play a massive error in wrecks(unless you were Hopkins or Kenny Jr. riding the GSVR awhile back). I never said it did not. Feet positioning, body positioning, whatever(look at spies positiong, Rossi's stature vs. Pedrosa?). GP guys drag hardparts, and I am damn sure they are better than you and I combined.


I wasnt calling you out on not blaming it on rider error. It was a general comment.

I run aftermarket rearsets, because they are in a fixed position and offer cheaper replacement parts then stock ones do. Looking at any of my pics of me draggin knee through a turn I have plenty of room to be running stock ones with feelers on them. I am not a tall person what so ever so for me to put a knee down I have to actually lean the bike farther then most people, and yet I have still not drug any hard part.

I dont ever recall seeing a GP rider or SBK rider dragging hard parts. I used to see sparks coming from Bayliss's bike going through corners but that is his Ti toe sliders.

Also take into account GP riders get and ride on tires no average person can get. They are also running 16.5's for the most part. With 16.5's you get a bigger contact patch which allows for a higher lean angle. Their tires are also wider then anything most street riders would use as well.

racedk6
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 01:15 AM
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0emm7Bi3uk3eh/610x.jpg

Totally shitty body positioning

and I can almost guarantee that is a titanium toe slider doing that.

racedk6
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 01:17 AM
and say that was a peg dragging... how come he didnt crash because of it?

kawasakirob
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 01:30 AM
Let's continue with some beers sometime.

Bueller
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 05:55 AM
I don't understand why people compare body positioning with all the top racers? It isn't even close to any type of real life riding, apples and oranges

Please explain total shitty positioning comment
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0emm7Bi3uk3eh/610x.jpg

Sorry if this is someone here, but this is shitty positioning

Slo
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 08:10 AM
Motogp, WSB, etc is not comparable in any way to this guy up in the Tail.....

+1 on what racedk6 said, I also have never dragged a hard part, scraped a curb feeler once, and in order for my knee to touch down, I do have to lean the bike over pretty far. Running aftermarket rearsets for me makes it easier to get my lazy A$$ off the seat from side to side as well.

Also, just because someone gets a knee down, doesn't mean they know how to ride, nor does it mean they are leaned far over. Many of us have followed someone on a track where the person in front was dragging knees (not lightly scraping) and the person behind was sitting up normal.

Ganjagod
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 08:52 AM
Hey bueller, what do you think of the guy on the blue r1? http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=30943

Zach929rr
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 09:01 AM
Could someone provide example to good body position?

UglyDogRacing
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 09:04 AM
Hey bueller, what do you think of the guy on the blue r1? Best pic on page 2 http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=30943

If you mean this pic, it looks like the rider is trying too hard to get their legs and hips off the bike and put a knee down while their shoulder and head are still over top of the bike.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c99/sagvr4/DSC00381.jpg



Could someone provide example to good body position?

http://www.latebraker.com/galleries/WSBKSLC09/Sunday/HendryElbow.jpg

another-

UglyDogRacing
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 09:07 AM
Let's continue with some beers sometime.


Maybe you can get Grubbs to come pick you and your bike up that way the two of you will have plenty of time on the way to the track to debate this.

http://cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32666

Slo
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 09:22 AM
This definitely is not it... I will look for a pic someone posted a year or so ago on here. I can't find it, might be at home. It shows some examples of good and bad posture and why.....

UglyDogRacing
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 09:27 AM
Sorry if this is someone here, but this is shitty positioning



http://image.sportrider.com/f/10258474+w750+st0/146_0805_06_z+former_racing_champions+freddie_spen cer.jpg

Thats Bill, the owner of Grand Prix. He started racing back in the 80's when that type of body position was the norm.

racedk6
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 11:15 AM
Maybe you can get Grubbs to come pick you and your bike up that way the two of you will have plenty of time on the way to the track to debate this.

http://cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32666

Not happening! There is nothing to debate

derekm
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 11:56 AM
It kinda looks like he started dragging hard parts which caused the tires to lose traction and the resulting low-side.
+1

kawasakirob
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 12:09 PM
I don't understand why people compare body positioning with all the top racers? It isn't even close to any type of real life riding, apples and oranges

Please explain total shitty positioning comment
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0emm7Bi3uk3eh/610x.jpg

Sorry if this is someone here, but this is shitty positioning

BUELLER, You pretty much have the same view as I have. My argument was, how can someone have a proper body position? With so many riders out there at the TOP level, most have different positions. This Pic with Casey and the TOTALLY SHITTY BODY POSITIONING comment was ment to be totally sarcastic. mmmmmmk?

kawasakirob
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 12:15 PM
There is so much emphasize on Body positioning its stupid. It just comes down to if you can ride a bike fast or not. Look at Spies and his style. Rossi's tall skinny frame, Pedrosa's tiny frame, Capirossi's Vs. who the hell cares. The Stoner photo was a sarcastic comment about body positiong. Besides, I have the best body positioning out there.

kawasakirob
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 12:16 PM
Not happening! There is nothing to debate
I have gas money:)

Bueller
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 02:29 PM
Hey bueller, what do you think of the guy on the blue r1? http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=30943

What Jim said, don't try so hard to drag knee and get the upper body leaned more into the turn.




Thats Bill, the owner of Grand Prix. He started racing back in the 80's when that type of body position was the norm.
Fast not always comes with perfect positioning, some people do great with technically poor positioning. but the lean angle on his bike is excessive due to his body position.

racedk6
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 03:37 PM
Body position play a huge roll on how much lean angle is required to make a turn. Yes there is a correct form of body positioning, each persons will look a little bit different because of their body style. But all in all they all reach the general concept of where they need their body to be.

kawasakirob
Wed Jun 17th, 2009, 03:41 PM
Body position play a huge roll on how much lean angle is required to make a turn. Yes there is a correct form of body positioning, each persons will look a little bit different because of their body style. But all in all they all reach the general concept of where they need their body to be.
I agree, they all have the same basic picture.