California "too big to fail"

[Shea]

So California had their vote on several budget initiatives to, so they were told, solve the complete lack of fiscal responsibility in Sacramento. All of them were defeated except the one to limit the pay of said politicians. Naturally Arnold went on bended knee to Obama with his hand out asking for a loan. So now we, as taxpayers, are responsible for California's liberalism...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124242927140025477.html

How is it, that time after time, liberalism (or progressivism) has been shown to fail but the cult members of this ideology continue to preach about how it solves all the perceived woes of society? If spending money that you don't have, taxing business into oblivion, taking money from those who work for it to give to those that don't somehow creates a utopia, how is it that Europe is crumbling (the US following closely behind) and the states that are falling apart are all run by adherents to this mythology?

Luckily California is still able to spend money on Otters, toxic-free dry cleaning initiatives and day care for illigal immigrants. Really amazes me how people can actually think this sort of monumental incompetance is good government.

And before all you cult members put on your finger tamberines and start shouting "nazi" and blaming it all on Bush, let me remind you of something. My beef is with liberalism/socialism (ie happy fascism) or the term du jour "progressivism" not some moronically dogmatic and equally intellectually bankrupt "dem v repub" rant. Obama is continuing Bush economic/big government policy just with a slightly better PR campaign.

[Big-J]

http://bsd.benquick.net/images/stfu.jpg

[Shea]

Good job Jeremy for showing us the depths of your intellect.

[Big-J]

:up:

[THE3BS]

I grew up in California and still have a good majority of family that lives there.

As of recent California raised sales tax. In LA county sales tax is now 10.5%. Car registration in California doubled. People with newer cars will be spending well over $1000.00 per year to keep their cars on the road.

Not to long ago Nancy Pelosi attended an immigration rally. The rally was being held by 1000's of illegal immigrants. While giving a speech to the immigrants Nancy Pelosi stated that she would continue to fight for the rights of illegals and then told them that they are the true patriots of America.

California is the perfect example of what not to vote for. In California the politicians are no longer interested in the rights of the people, valid law, economic reform, or freedom. They are interested in preserving the best interests of themselves and retaining their seats in office so they can live the life of luxury at the expense of the taxpayers and ill say and do anything to make sure of it.

The biggest problem in California is that the illegal immigrants are now a great enough portion of the population that they can sway an election. Illegals aren't even suppose to vote but they all have drivers licenses now and the ballots are available in Spanish so you better believe they can and do vote.

As far as the "We're to big to fail," mentality goes.... Isn't that what they thought about Rome too?

I often ask my family that lives there and friends that live there why they continue to do it. Their reply is always the same. "California has the best weather on the planet."

Personally.. That weather comes at way to high of a cost for me.

[dirkterrell]

And before all you cult members put on your finger tamberines and start shouting "nazi" and blaming it all on Bush, let me remind you of something. My beef is with liberalism/socialism (ie happy fascism) or the term du jour "progressivism" not some moronically dogmatic and equally intellectually bankrupt "dem v repub" rant. Obama is continuing Bush economic/big government policy just with a slightly better PR campaign.

Yep, the politicians like us to bicker about left-vs-right, liberal-vs-conservative but it all boils down to power over others and we have allowed the Federal government to slowly grow and take more and more of our freedoms away. Things that should be the purview of local or state governments are now dictated by the Feds. The farther away a government gets, the less efficient and more susceptible to tyranny it becomes. We have needed to push the reset button for quite some time. From the look of things, that is going to happen by default, pun intended.

Dirk

[fullgrownbear]

I couldn't agree more with your post, but, it is an extremely nice place to live and I paid that price for a while! Might even do it again because family lives and resides out there.

[Devaclis]

Nice is a nice place to live too.

So is a great portion of Spain, Argentina, south Asia, and many other palces on the planet. I am actually kind of fond of Colorado.

[Shea]

Yep, the politicians like us to bicker about left-vs-right, liberal-vs-conservative but it all boils down to power over others and we have allowed the Federal government to slowly grow and take more and more of our freedoms away. Things that should be the purview of local or state governments are now dictated by the Feds. The farther away a government gets, the less efficient and more susceptible to tyranny it becomes. We have needed to push the reset button for quite some time. From the look of things, that is going to happen by default, pun intended.

Dirk

It's sad and unfortunate that we have gotten ourselves here. That there are those that believe that there is a free lunch. That somehow someone else will take care of them and that they are not responsible for their lives, their actions, or choices. That someone else is a better arbiter of their fate and destiny then themselves.

I fear that the reset, which I agree is going to happen, is going to be a painful and thus probably violent experience. A quote from the Matrix always springs to mind...

"You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

I hope it is different but societal changes are typically difficult and messy.

[MetaLord 9]

Nice is a nice place to live too.

So is a great portion of Spain, Argentina, south Asia, and many other palces on the planet. I am actually kind of fond of Colorado.
What about Florida? :D

[Devaclis]

Florida is the smelly penis of America. Old people, wiggers, traffic, palmetto bugs, snow birds, old people, crappy weather, old people, and too many buffet dinner places. I hated it there.

[dirkterrell]

Florida is the smelly penis of America. Old people, wiggers, traffic, palmetto bugs, snow birds, old people, crappy weather, old people, and too many buffet dinner places. I hated it there.

And banana spiders!!!! :)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Qm2i8mXTjhs/SX2RbqvWxpI/AAAAAAAABNI/D8TeOTQazU4/s1600/heather-banana-spider-780243.jpg

Dirk

[THE3BS]

Florida is the smelly penis of America. Old people, wiggers, traffic, palmetto bugs, snow birds, old people, crappy weather, old people, and too many buffet dinner places. I hated it there.

How can you be such a hater?

Studies have shown that regularly occurring Hurricanes improve the quality of a persons life dramatically.

If my life and property were constantly threatened by mother nature I would probably be the happiest guy alive. Not having to worry about all of my stuff being destroyed by wind and water is quite boring really.

[Shea]

Florida is the smelly penis of America. Old people, wiggers, traffic, palmetto bugs, snow birds, old people, crappy weather, old people, and too many buffet dinner places. I hated it there.

So you're saying the only good thing to come out of Florida is a certain Pie? :)

[Devaclis]

Werd, and she is not really from there :)

The only thing I really know if Cali, politically, is what the media tells me. So I really do not know much about it that is true and unbiased. I would do personal research if I felt it really needed to be done. I have been there 2 times for work. I hope I never go back. too many laws telling me what I can and cannot do with my personal property, my health, and my free time.

[Shea]

too many laws telling me what I can and cannot do with my personal property, my health, and my free time.

That is freedom, love and leads to prosperity apparently. Born there, grew up there and enjoy the ocean and climate. Unfortunately it has been run into the ground by people who think it is their job to rule over people and pay for their pet projects with complete disregard for the financial health of the state.

Wish them all the best, but it's YOUR FRACKING MESS and not MY responsibility. If Obama gives them any sort of money, we're done.

[Devaclis]

ok, after 5 minutes of research, I am starting to dislike the politicians from Cali:

Retro-active motorcycle smog checks = FAIL

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/sen/sb_0401-0450/sb_435_bill_20090226_introduced.pdf

[Matty]

yet another reason i left. Fun to go back there and visit. But unless it's to Hermosa, Manhattan, or Redondo Beach, or even San Diego i don't plan on moving back any time soon.

[dirkterrell]

Heinlein:


Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Jefferson said pretty much the same thing:


Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1. Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes. 2. Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe, although not the most wise depositary of the public interests. In every country these two parties exist, and in every one where they are free to think, speak, and write, they will declare themselves. Call them, therefore, Liberals and Serviles, Jacobins and Ultras, Whigs and Tories, Republicans and Federalists, Aristocrats and Democrats, or by whatever name you please, they are the same parties still and pursue the same object. The last one of Aristocrats and Democrats is the true one expressing the essence of all.


Dirk

[Shea]

I'll take number 2.

[Devaclis]

Few people start out wanting to become corrupt, irrelevant, or swayed by those intending to serve only their best interests. It is the system of trials, relationships, "common rules" and the need to influence those in power that make good people in ANY party perform unwise tasks. I do not know ONE person who has never taken advantage of their position for some sort of personal gain. Getting out early from work, getting sports tickets, discounted purchases, avoid a speeding ticket, etc.

The one thing I CAN see of most people is this: When they do not like another person they either try to make them more like themselves OR they try to ruin/discredit/eliminate that other person. There are many ways to do this, a lot of them are subtle and often disguised as debate, public outing, simple comments made to his comrades, or just plain outright personal abuse.

It is going to be tough to change any of the people who represent California's citizens. I think you can only really hope to change what it is they represent.

[Shea]

Few people start out wanting to become corrupt, irrelevant, or swayed by those intending to serve only their best interests. It is the system of trials, relationships, "common rules" and the need to influence those in power that make good people in ANY party perform unwise tasks. I do not know ONE person who has never taken advantage of their position for some sort of personal gain. Getting out early from work, getting sports tickets, discounted purchases, avoid a speeding ticket, etc.

The one thing I CAN see of most people is this: When they do not like another person they either try to make them more like themselves OR they try to ruin/discredit/eliminate that other person. There are many ways to do this, a lot of them are subtle and often disguised as debate, public outing, simple comments made to his comrades, or just plain outright personal abuse.

It is going to be tough to change any of the people who represent California's citizens. I think you can only really hope to change what it is they represent.

Man you get deep when you're sober! :)

Yes man is imperfect. However I make the distinction between leaving early (and the conscience choice I make in order to do so) and using a position of service (political office) to control the lives of other people for my own ends.

[TFOGGuys]

...I make the distinction between leaving early (and the conscience choice I make in order to do so) and using a position of service (political office) to control the lives of other people for my own ends.

Piffle. You know you're a despot just waiting for an opportunity, Shea!


/sarcasm (for now)

[Shea]

Piffle. You know you're a despot just waiting for an opportunity, Shea!


/sarcasm (for now)

Damn straight. Heaven and earth will shake when I get into power. You'll have to live your life how you see fit, make your own decisions and reap the rewards thereof. FEAR ME!

[Devaclis]

The difference between power and servitude, as it relates to U.S. politicians, is all a matter of perspective.

[Devaclis]

And why the hell is it that EVERY time Obama speaks he has an "I have a Dream" or "Ask not what your country can do for you" speech? And when another country is really fucking around, say N. Korea, and testing WMD's the big bad savior of our country "Hopes our allies will stand up in protest, with the Unites States, to let them know we don't like that but we don't want to piss you off" He is a pussy, he is a manipulator, and he will never place a person in office, under his term, who is not a female, ethnicity other than caucasian, handicapped, retarded, or otherwise a "Non white male"

/exaggeration, but fact based on skepticism.


Why can't we elect a true representative of our people? Do you know ANYONE who is not in politics who is like Obama? Bush? Reagan? Stop lying, you don't. Yet some of you elected him to represent you. Cali is at least made of of people who are close to as fake, material, egotistical, and nanny grabbing as the people they elect. You have to give them that.

Your vote: Just because you can does not mean you should. If you feel you HAVE to, then you are not living in the true spirit of the United States of America and it's founding fathers. Read something other than a biased newspaper and you can find out for yourself how YOU actually feel.

[Shea]

And why the hell is it that EVERY time Obama speaks he has an "I have a Dream" or "Ask not what your country can do for you" speech? And when another country is really fucking around, say N. Korea, and testing WMD's the big bad savior of our country "Hopes our allies will stand up in protest, with the Unites States, to let them know we don't like that but we don't want to piss you off" He is a pussy, he is a manipulator, and he will never place a person in office, under his term, who is not a female, ethnicity other than caucasian, handicapped, retarded, or otherwise a "Non white male"


Because he is not a leader, he is a politician.




Your vote: Just because you can does not mean you should. If you feel you HAVE to, then you are not living in the true spirit of the United States of America and it's founding fathers. Read something other than a biased newspaper and you can find out for yourself how YOU actually feel.

Being part of the process requires work and effort. Few want to look at anything that questions their preconceived notions or belief system. It might make them uncomfortable so it's easier just to call people names, vote straight ticket and call it a day. Face it Dana, 99% of the populace probably hasn't read the Constitution, Federalist Papers (and Anti-) or even know how our system works. How are they to be expected to make informed decisions on who to elect?

Our system is heavily weighted to a two party system and those that run in that system are generally products of the party machine. Obama was spit out by one of the most corrupt machines around.

[Wintermute]

So California had their vote on several budget initiatives to, so they were told, solve the complete lack of fiscal responsibility in Sacramento. All of them were defeated except the one to limit the pay of said politicians. Naturally Arnold went on bended knee to Obama with his hand out asking for a loan. So now we, as taxpayers, are responsible for California's liberalism...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124242927140025477.html

How is it, that time after time, liberalism (or progressivism) has been shown to fail but the cult members of this ideology continue to preach about how it solves all the perceived woes of society? If spending money that you don't have, taxing business into oblivion, taking money from those who work for it to give to those that don't somehow creates a utopia, how is it that Europe is crumbling (the US following closely behind) and the states that are falling apart are all run by adherents to this mythology?

Luckily California is still able to spend money on Otters, toxic-free dry cleaning initiatives and day care for illigal immigrants. Really amazes me how people can actually think this sort of monumental incompetance is good government.

And before all you cult members put on your finger tamberines and start shouting "nazi" and blaming it all on Bush, let me remind you of something. My beef is with liberalism/socialism (ie happy fascism) or the term du jour "progressivism" not some moronically dogmatic and equally intellectually bankrupt "dem v repub" rant. Obama is continuing Bush economic/big government policy just with a slightly better PR campaign.

Considering that California gets back $.77 for every dollar they pay the IRS, how exactly are "we" paying for this? They're asking for something like 10% back of their overpayment.

Why don't you bitch about redneck states like Mississippi that get more money than they pay? Oh, that's right, you can't go on some Limbaugh Jr rant about how it's all the fault of hippiecommieislamolibfascism because only liberals live in CA. Riiiighht. Where's Reagan buried again?

California is a mess because they govern the state from the ballot box with all the stupid initiatives. People being greedy fucking people, they vote time and again against paying any taxes and their elected representatives of both parties, wanting to be re-elected, never cut shit.

Also, they tax the shit out of businesses because they don't tax property because of Prop 13.

[dirkterrell]

Considering that California gets back $.77 for every dollar they pay the IRS, how exactly are "we" paying for this? They're asking for something like 10% back of their overpayment.

Why don't you bitch about redneck states like Mississippi that get more money than they pay?

You mean redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor is a bad idea?

Dirk

[DL]

let them eat all the otters first ........ then i will think about helping.....
ah maybe not
D

[CaptGoodvibes]

I'm middle of the road.

California as a population is more right than left. If you check the actual record of elected officials you'll see that republicans are the norm. Consider Prop. 8. Gay marriage is banned by a vote of the citizens and that's not going to change any time soon. Would a liberal state have it that way? Doubtful...

There are a few liberal strongholds including the entertainment industry and their very liberal agenda. For the very conservative folk here... every time you attend a movie, you are supporting what you hate.

The state (geography, history, potential) is amazing... the prices... outrageous!

[Shea]

Considering that California gets back $.77 for every dollar they pay the IRS, how exactly are "we" paying for this? They're asking for something like 10% back of their overpayment.

Why don't you bitch about redneck states like Mississippi that get more money than they pay? Oh, that's right, you can't go on some Limbaugh Jr rant about how it's all the fault of hippiecommieislamolibfascism because only liberals live in CA. Riiiighht. Where's Reagan buried again?

California is a mess because they govern the state from the ballot box with all the stupid initiatives. People being greedy fucking people, they vote time and again against paying any taxes and their elected representatives of both parties, wanting to be re-elected, never cut shit.

Also, they tax the shit out of businesses because they don't tax property because of Prop 13.

Wow, hit a nerve? I don't see Mississippi asking for a handout yet because they can't balance their budget (yet). I don't see Mississippi telling the rest of America that it's their problem because their politicians are incompetent and spineless (yet). Rest assured Winter, if and when that day comes I will. But you would rather come after me.

They are not asking for their overpayment back. There is not some bank where their money is stored in Washington DC that they can go and just withdraw some. What the ARE asking for is for the United States of America (all of us) to guarantee a line of credit to them. In other words, we (you, me, Dirk, Barn, et al) are being asked to cover their inability to run their state with our (inevitably when they screw it up again) tax dollars.

And since when does the wealth of the state dictate if they can get a loan? You're all for giving poor people "free" healthcare. Same damn thing. Or is it because you call them "rednecks" it makes you feel superior to them and thus "unworthy" of your liberalism?

You're all over the map. First it's not liberalism's fault that California is such a mess then complain that they tax business into the ground (the very heart of liberalism). Next you complain that they apparently don't tax the individuals enough and the government overspends (very liberal). Then you harp on me for "Oh, that's right, you can't go on some Limbaugh Jr rant about how it's all the fault of hippiecommieislamolibfascism because only liberals live in CA"

Seriously stud, get your story straight. And if you think that I'm some "Limbaugh Jr" you aren't paying attention or it just doesn't fit into your world few that someone cannot be either liberal or conservative.

[Captain Obvious]

let them eat all the otters first ........ then i will think about helping.....


NNOOOO, the otters would then become endangered!!!! THey should be forced to eat each other until they return the mass of humanity to a balance point.

Or perhaps they should just reevaluate the way they spend the tax-payers money.

[Wintermute]

Wow, hit a nerve? I don't see Mississippi asking for a handout yet because they can't balance their budget (yet). I don't see Mississippi telling the rest of America that it's their problem because their politicians are incompetent and spineless (yet). Rest assured Winter, if and when that day comes I will. But you would rather come after me.

They are not asking for their overpayment back. There is not some bank where their money is stored in Washington DC that they can go and just withdraw some. What the ARE asking for is for the United States of America (all of us) to guarantee a line of credit to them. In other words, we (you, me, Dirk, Barn, et al) are being asked to cover their inability to run their state with our (inevitably when they screw it up again) tax dollars.

And since when does the wealth of the state dictate if they can get a loan? You're all for giving poor people "free" healthcare. Same damn thing. Or is it because you call them "rednecks" it makes you feel superior to them and thus "unworthy" of your liberalism?

You're all over the map. First it's not liberalism's fault that California is such a mess then complain that they tax business into the ground (the very heart of liberalism). Next you complain that they apparently don't tax the individuals enough and the government overspends (very liberal). Then you harp on me for "Oh, that's right, you can't go on some Limbaugh Jr rant about how it's all the fault of hippiecommieislamolibfascism because only liberals live in CA"

Seriously stud, get your story straight. And if you think that I'm some "Limbaugh Jr" you aren't paying attention or it just doesn't fit into your world few that someone cannot be either liberal or conservative.

Mississippi doesn't have to ask for money, they get it every year, year after year after year. The point was, you play your little gotcha game of "Liberalism has failed" because of the current CA situation, but the rightwing ass clowns that run all the crappy federal-aid-sucking, last-in-the-nation-in-every-category southern states get a pass on the basis of their politics. I won't say "Conservatism has failed" because I understand the real world is much more complicated than stupid talk radio "gotcha" bullshit.

As far as wringing my hands about having to bail CA out, I've gotten pretty thick skin over the last 8 months about having to pay for other people's fuck-ups. What with the trillions we're spending on the bank bail-out started by noted "socialist" George W. Bush. Is he a "fascist" too? I can't keep your all's meaningless buzzwords straight.

Also, if you're not Limbaugh Jr, name one issue on which you disagree with him, other than his extremely hypocritical opposition to drugs. Don't be like Bill O'Really and pull the fake "I'm neither liberal or conservative" cop-out when everything I've ever seen you say about politics on here is very conservative. Point me to a post to prove me wrong.

(FYI, I get to call them "rednecks" because I am one, having spent the first 23 years of my life on a family farm in central MO. My elderly parents still live on a farm there.)

[Devaclis]

Farmers are not rednecks. Don't flatter yourself. I grew up farming in NY, drinking half empty beer cans out of the back of construction trucks in Texas as a kid, getting wasted at VFW's in NY, Texas, and Florida because the girls there have less teef. Attended Field days to participate in arm wrastlin, tug of war, pole climbs, and logging contests.

You get to call them rednecks because you want to, not because you are entitled to.

[dirkterrell]

Also, if you're not Limbaugh Jr, name one issue on which you disagree with him, other than his extremely hypocritical opposition to drugs.

Gay marriage? I'm pretty sure a Limbaugh Jr wouldn't write this:

http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?p=352670&highlight=marriage#post352670

Dirk

[Wintermute]

Point taken Dirk, I retract my dumb-ass accusation. Sorry Shea.

Dev, I think Audrain County Missourah is a bit more redneck than NY state. We had a Klan parade in the town of 3,000 I went to high school in. In the 80s.

Anyway, I broke my unwritten rule about not arguing politics with you guys again. I just end up turning into a snide asshole every time and pissing off people I want to ride with. Cheers.

[Devaclis]

Really? ever been in the woods in the Adirondacks? LOL we scare the hill williams from Kentucky :)

Don't worry about pissing peeps off man. I don't. It's only the intarwebs. Meets us for a ride or beers. THEN talk smack about us :)

[Shea]

Mississippi doesn't have to ask for money, they get it every year, year after year after year. The point was, you play your little gotcha game of "Liberalism has failed" because of the current CA situation, but the rightwing ass clowns that run all the crappy federal-aid-sucking, last-in-the-nation-in-every-category southern states get a pass on the basis of their politics. I won't say "Conservatism has failed" because I understand the real world is much more complicated than stupid talk radio "gotcha" bullshit.

a. Ok, so let me get this straight. Mississippi gets more money from the federal government then it sends to Washington. That's bad according to you and therefore you get to call them names and feel superior...

b. The primary means by which the federal government receives funds is through taxation of both businesses and individuals.

c. The largest outlay of federal money goes to welfare, in it's various forms.

d. Therefore, given a, b and c we can conclude that Mississippi is a poor state, populated by relatively poor individuals and hence they receive more then they give.

This somehow upsets you greatly. I thought you were all for helping the poor and giving them money they didn't earn? Who's the hypocrite now?



As far as wringing my hands about having to bail CA out, I've gotten pretty thick skin over the last 8 months about having to pay for other people's fuck-ups. What with the trillions we're spending on the bank bail-out started by noted "socialist" George W. Bush. Is he a "fascist" too? I can't keep your all's meaningless buzzwords straight.

So now that you've gotten your "thick skin" it's cool to tapdance down the road to economic ruin? I mean really, what's a few more billion to CA, then NY, then NJ and on and on and on. When can we say enough? Or is that too much to ask of you?

And yes, George Bush was a progressive and hence a retard. Doubling the debt in 8 years? Expanding the government involvement in people's lives? Another enormous entitlement plan? Yeah, idiot.

I'm not going to give Obama a pass on doubling the debt again, in just four years. Will you?



Also, if you're not Limbaugh Jr, name one issue on which you disagree with him, other than his extremely hypocritical opposition to drugs. Don't be like Bill O'Really and pull the fake "I'm neither liberal or conservative" cop-out when everything I've ever seen you say about politics on here is very conservative. Point me to a post to prove me wrong.

Dirk posted it. But it's just easier for you to label me and then pull the same shit and tell me how you're above the fray because you recognize the "gray" in life. Please. While I agree with Rush on some issues I am not a social conservative by any stretch of the imagination, despite your deep desire to label as such.



(FYI, I get to call them "rednecks" because I am one, having spent the first 23 years of my life on a family farm in central MO. My elderly parents still live on a farm there.)

Good for you, I bet they're proud that you put them down every chance you get.

[Wintermute]

You completely and willfully misdirect the point of that post and ignore my apology in the next. Par the course.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore Shea. It's just not worth it. You get seriously unhinged about this shit and it makes me crazy and around and around we go, getting progressively uglier and more personal. Like your line about my parents.

[Shea]

You completely and willfully misdirect the point of that post and ignore my apology in the next. Par the course.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore Shea. It's just not worth it. You get seriously unhinged about this shit and it makes me crazy and around and around we go, getting progressively uglier and more personal. Like your line about my parents.

So what is your point? That it's ok for California to get money because they pay more into the system but for Mississippi citizens to get welfare is wrong? That's how I read it, in between trying to paint me into a box so, you once again, can feel superior about someone.

You're the one that used it as a derogatory adjective, then gladly called yourself and them as such. All I can go off of is your obvious feelings about rednecks.

So once again, you call me "unhinged" because I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to voice it. More name calling. If you get all butthurt about this perhaps this isn't the venue for you.

[Wintermute]

Yeah, I guess I was trying to feel superior calling myself an asshole 7 posts ago. Along with the "redneck" thing, I take myself with a very big grain of salt.

But no, I'm not butt sore, I just don't want to argue politics with you. Every time it devolves into these ugly, nasty, humorless wastes of time. Mea culpa.

[Clovis]

Interesting post. Shannon and I occasionally will talk about moving to California -- mainly because there are more things to do them (better weather, beaches, amusement parks, ect) also her extended family (grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins) are all spread out around SoCO.

We were there over a year ago in March and it was really nice to do outside things while Colorado still, well sucks, I don't think I would want to do it full time.

For one, the cost of living, until the housing crash has been insane -- homes that here would go for $180-200k easily toping $700k in the suburbs of LA, not to mention the price of gas.

For example, one of my best friends bought their house in June 2007 for $380k and it's now worth, maybe $250k less then two years later, while it still has a tax assessed value of $346k... another Californian beauty -- taxes -- the property taxes on that house, $6,344 a year -- Other homes in the area that are similar are listed for $189k. When Shan and I were out there, we talked about how we could get a good deal on a house like that for $280, glad we didn't.

(btw, yahoo home values, is one of the best real estate tools for finding property info and it's free).

Anyhow, the most common argument I hear for why California is "worth it" is the weather, but there was an article I read a couple of years ago that said the average California is only outside in the sun for 18 minutes a day on average -- the rest of the time is spent inside or driving the 2 hour each way to work commute. Yeah, my buddy... his job relocated him to 70 miles from his house, changing his commute from 30 minutes to 2 hours each way.

For me, Colorado has a lot of great things to do but the down side is it's only for about 5-6 months a year (I'm not for winter activities, my fun things are motorcycles and fly fishing).

We also have 300+ days of sunshine per year, so yeah, I'll stick with it here and my $800 a year property tax =P.. and that's going up for 2009.

[BeoBe]

you mean "California... Too big of a failure"

[Clovis]

Another quick thing, and sorry my replies are kind of all over the place -- I didn't read this whole thread before replying.

Health care is the real tipping point IMO -- Once you have governent run health care, that's it, they've got us. The more that a people depend on their government for their every day lives, the less power they have to the state. If you're dependent on the governement for your health, your income, your retirement, your way of life, you're less likely to revolt and simply concede to the "they know what's best for me" mentality that seems to have taken root in the last few years.

Speaking of government, it really kills me how little the average American voter knows about how our government and politics works. Most people think that we're a democracy in the sense of majority (mob) while forgetting that we are a republic -- the majority may rule but only within the guidelines of the law.

Take this last election for example -- Of all the reasons why McCain lost (and there's a lot), the ecnomy was the most significant. Basically McCain was made out to be the second coming of Bush and a continence of "4 more years" if he were to be elected. Bush was blamed for the economy and many Americans ignorantly believed that the republicans were in charge, completely unaware that it is in reality the congress that holds the real power in our contry and the democrats have held the majorty since 2006.

The real reason why we lost was polical brillance and better manuvouring. The democrats managed to successfully blame the republicans for the failiures of the democratic congress while promosing "change" by expanded the governemnt to the point of where the Democrats are a breath away from absolute control without checks and balances.

Why? Because most people assume that it's the Presdient that runs the country -- good times or bad, it's the presdent and since Bush was a republican, it was the republicans that were responcible for the mistakes of the democratic congress.

There was an interesting video that floated around for a bit on youtube following the election that asked random voters at the polls to name key political people like Nancy Poloecy, Barney Frank and I forgot the others now. The documentory asked people who were voting for Obama "who currently controls the congress? the democrats of the republicans" and each person immediately proclaimed it was the republicans that control congress! Why? Because Bush was a republican, he's in charge, must be the republicans fault.

Now, sorry.. I've hijacked someone's thread and gone off on a rant -- I couldn't sleep last night so I didn't and now I've been up for 33 hours and probably not thinking straight but it really does sadden that the average American Voter will not take the time to learn about how their governemnt works and works for them because one day they're going to be dependent on it. Another fun fact - more people vote in American Idol then they do for the US President, but in all fairness in American Idol people can vote multiple times so numbers are skewed American idol is nothing more then successful marketing of pop culture at it's finest and we gobble it up.

Good luck out there, we're all family here.

[BeoBe]

wow now thats dedication lol