does crashing make you a bad rider?

[jimwallace]

just like the title says. does crashing make you a bad rider? I am of the belief of no, but then again i crash a lot, I dont mind crashing (besides the cost), but my crashing comes from me pushing my limits and doing other things (stunts.....shhhhhhh!). I dont do crazy stuff with passengers as i am only willing to risk myself and not others, but anyway back to the point. People are related my stories, see me push it, or just see some recent damage on my bike and automatically take it as I am a bad rider just because i crash a lot.............am i?

[Pandora-11]

I dont know, but when I was behind you, you scared the heck out of me!!:):)(I say that lovingly and kindly.)

[Matty]

but my crashing comes from me pushing my limits and doing other things (stunts.....shhhhhhh!).

If you crash while pushing your limits too hard or riding way over your capabilities than ya, you're a bad rider.. If you were a good rider you would know not to push as hard and take your time to increase your skills!!!

I'm mean i'm just saying. LOL...

[jimwallace]

remind me not to do anything daring in front of you then, i was just comfortably cruising (albeit i was in a bouncy mood, but not pushing it in any way)

[RajunCajun]

Well, if riding is the opposite of crashing, I'd say you are better at the latter. Nah, just kidding. If you are crashing on the track, that means that you are pushing your skills to the next level, but if it is on the street, I'd say that could be putting other's lives in danger. I don't think the street is the venue for pushing it hard.

[kevplus2]

you usually dont realize your limits until you exceed them. sometimes you get away with it, sometimes it bites you in the arse. you gotta push your limits to get better. i dont know if you have to push them to the point of crashing, but crashes also happen to those riding within their limits

[Pandora-11]

remind me not to do anything daring in front of you then, i was just comfortably cruising (albeit i was in a bouncy mood, but not pushing it in any way)

Sorry....jk....it was the mom reaction in me.

[jimwallace]

If you crash while pushing your limits or riding over your capabilities than ya, you're a bad rider.. If you were a good rider you would know not to push as hard and take your time to increase your skills!!!

I'm mean i'm just saying. LOL...

even if pushin those limits is in a controlled environment (ie track or secluded asphalt)?


you usually dont realize your limits until you exceed them. sometimes you get away with it, sometimes it bites you in the arse. you gotta push your limits to get better. i dont know if you have to push them to the point of crashing, but crashes also happen to those riding within their limits

this is my thinking, its like working out, unless i push my max, how do i increase my skill.

[brennahm]

If that were like working out then you'd be constantly injuring your body with tears, strains, etc.

I would say I learn more from pushing my limits and remaining upright than when I crash. Crashing shows what you cannot do while if you push but don't crash then you know what you're capable of and can do more. I guess you could argue just the opposite, but I think you need to define a "good rider" before you decide if you are one.

[jimwallace]

If that were like working out then you'd be constantly injuring your body with tears, strains, etc.

I would say I learn more from pushing my limits and remaining upright than when I crash. Crashing shows what you cannot do while if you push but don't crash then you know what you're capable of and can do more. I guess you could argue just the opposite, but I think you need to define a "good rider" before you decide if you are one.
well, first off i have only crashed 4 times, twice on the track and twice on the street, i easily have 50k miles under my arse, and I also do work out and i push that too, and no i dont have any tears or strains.

[RajunCajun]

Yeah, I've come really close to crashing a couple of times but it was always because I did something fundamentally stupid but had the skill to get out of it. So, yeah, you can crash when you aren't pushing it, but there is a big difference.

And when you are trying a new max, do you have a spot or do you want to just fail and crush yourself? Pushing it on the track is your spot, but everyone else's spot at well, know what I mean?

[SLVRSURFR]

you usually dont realize your limits until you exceed them. sometimes you get away with it, sometimes it bites you in the arse. you gotta push your limits to get better. i dont know if you have to push them to the point of crashing, but crashes also happen to those riding within their limits

I agree with this..

And Jim.. Ur threads crack me up! (Because i've witnessed one of those crashes!!) LOL

[Sean]

Crashing = Bad

but

Crashing at the track (full gear, emt's, corner workers, no trees, no minivans, no deer etc) = okay, it's a good place to learn and push your abilities legally

crashing on the street = riding out of your abilities in the wrong place.

my .02

[BigE]

I'm of the mind that you push your limits and increase them on a track or off road and know and ride within them on the street. Also until I did a ride on the track (streetbike track) I always thought I was leaving my self a "buffer", like riding at "80%". Once I did some track time I realized I was riding on the street at like 90% and not really leaving that buffer. I think this is something that most people do and don't realize until they either roadrace or do some trackdays.
Fwiw, I also disagree with the maxim "there's two kinds of riders, those that have crashed and those that are going to."
I've done 25yrs of street riding without a crash (knock on wood/helmet/lunkhead). I have had close calls but think the fact that I HAVE wiped out/ ate shit/ launched/ bit the big one/ crashed more times than I can remember dirt biking and learned what it feels like to slide, have the front let go, etc. well, that sticks with ya over the years.

BTW, on a track...there are no accidents, just wipe outs. :D

[dirkterrell]

you usually dont realize your limits until you exceed them.

Or work with someone who can help you recognize those limits and how to extend them. You don't have to crash to get better.

Dirk

[Matty]

Or work with someone who can help you recognize those limits and how to extend them. You don't have to crash to get better.

Dirk
:up:

[Darkside]

I HATE IT when people see a scratch and assume you can't ride! deffinately put the ASS in Assume!

IDK EX: when I was learning to wheelie (dirt bike on track) I wrecked a good dozen times in one day, if you are pushin beyond your limit tryin to master something and wreck a bunch of times I think it helps you learn, at least gets me over the fear of wreckin and I can focus on technique not fearing im going to eat shit and just wrecklessly keep popin the clutch hopin to ride a wheelie. Or focus on the fastest time and line around the track, some times you got to keep crashin to clearly see how not to crash... dunno if that makes sence, but thats my 2 cents.

[Sortarican]

just like the title says. does crashing make you a bad rider? .............am i?

Not necessarily, it just proves you're vulnerable to gravity.


well, first off i have only crashed 4 times, twice on the track and twice on the street,...

If it's was within a year or maybe two you might want to try a llittle more gradual elevation of pushing your limits
But bottom line, if you're comfortable risking the edge, than go for it, just do it at the track.

[#1Townie]

hell no crashing is part of learning.. if guys never tryd and failed at the back flip then we would have neverr seen the double back flip.. you never know how far you can push until your to far.. no one can tell you how to ride you have to learn and with learning like walking comes some stumbles.. pro riders crash everry day.. dirt fmx stunting racing it doesnt matter people will go down.. i learned from a pro desert racer that if i go out on some single track and never crash im not riding hard enough... does that mean i wanted to wad up in every turn no.. and yes somtimes i woulod never go down just enjoying the ride for the ride.. youll never get better at riding untill you push passed those limits to learn newer and more advanced levals of two wheels..

[BHeth]

Ben Spies crashes a shitload, and he's among the best I have ever seen. Crashing in and of itself does not make you a good or bad rider. It's just the end result of a series of events. It is that series of events prior to the crash that is more telling of riding skills, IMO.

[Devaclis]

You callin' my wife a bad rider? I will let her kick your butt for that.

[dirkterrell]

pro riders crash everry day..

I think there is an important difference between the everyday riders we are talking about here and pro riders: the "limit" for pro riders is usually defined by the machine (usually tires) while for the rest of us, it is the rider. A big part of crashing or not depends on the rider's ability to recognize when something is going wrong and correct for it. Note the difference in the end results between these two videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3w8BOO1C3I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOHHB3Ntsag

If the street rider had worked with someone knowledgeable, he would have learned that he was approaching the limit because of his horrible body positioning. I would bet that Hacking could go through that corner at twice the speed on the same bike and not be anywhere near a limit. You can learn from crashing but you don't have to crash to learn.

Dirk

[McVaaahhh]

Crashing doesn't make you a bad rider; you crash because you're a bad rider. :lol:

[Mental]

There are so many more reasons you are a bad rider Jim.

Its a valid question, but seriously, you shouldn't keep a tally of crashes vs milage. That leads to rationalization, and that leads to a sckewed view of reality and then you are gonna find yourself in real trouble.

I have crashed twice in 20 years. Thats riding countless bike, doing collassaly stupid things and sometime just bad luck, in 3 countries, living in 6 states. You look at some of the older riders here, and that makes me a squid. I don't want to say any names and curse them, but I have seen the tailights a many a rider on this board who are looking at 4 and 5 decades of riding without incident. Judging by how hard I was working to keep up, I'd say they have pushed their limits and increased their skills without crashing.

The Ben Spies comparasion is interesting. Yes, he is certainly of the first or crash school, but that is a function of competitivness rather than skill. On his worst day he could out run the majority of us on a moped.

Perhaps you should consider a different angle. I jokingly said there are other reasons you are a bad rider (I don't think you are). But you asking this question means you are examining your riding style. Thats a good thing. Its not a function of being up rather than being down, but a function of what you can do.

Simply put, saying you crash becuase you are pushing yourself to learn is a rationalization. There are dozen's of riders here that push themselves on the street and track and keep the bike upright.

This is where I sound preachy and I ain't trying to, becuase I like ya and I like hanging out with ya. But you are crashing on the street and at the track becuase you are allowing the bike to get ahead of you. You are allowing yourself to get into situations you cannot get out of. Be that a wheelie on a deserted street, or carrying to much speed into a corner.

That bike should never go anywhere that your head hasn't already been. When it gets there before you do, you are left with very few options and the bike ends up on its side. The fact you have avioded injury is a testement to your brains. You wear the gear. The superficial damage to the bike shows that your not to far over your head, but the fact the bike is going down still shows you are letting the bike do things you have not fully thought out. You may a a vision in your head of how you want it to go, but you have not completely thought out everything before it happens.

If you want to stunt, find a better bike for it like the stunter guys do, and find a better place than the street, even deserted ones. Or get on the dirt where you can expect to crash. If you want to go faster on the track, the answer is not more throttle, the answer is education, ask some folks and get a lap timer so you have more quantifyable results when you try techniques or different lines.

Not to get all Dr Phil on you, but you also have a larger concern than just you. 2 of them. Yes, right now you are young and still finding these limits, but if you keep pushing it, you know the math says one of these incidents you won't get up. You are going to take that bike someplace you head has not already been and the hazard you didn't anticipate is going to bite you hard.

As much as I like track days, I do not want to do one to help pay for your kids. If you're asking this question, somewhere you are thinking the same thing. So in a very long winded anwer, no, I don;t think crashing makes you a bad rider, but you might examine the beahvior that is getting you into these crashes, becuase that might be making you a bad rider.

[asp_125]

If crashing makes you better, then the more wrecks you are in the better you must be? ROFL. There are guys who crash all the time in races, but they aren't on the podium too much. They are the ones having to fix their bikes a lot. It's an expensive way to get better. Then there are the ones who sometimes crash, or have "oops" moments, ones who learn where the limits of traction and balance are. If you crash once or twice and learn from it, you're a better rider. If you keep crashing that's just means you're in way over your head. The guys on the podium are not only fast but protect their equipment by NOT crashing.

[bulldog]

One word "Hoopty" (one of the OG members). That guy use to crash all the time, but he turned into one of the best riders I know (off and on the track). Too bad he is retiring from racing is the rumor

[Matty]

Too bad he is retiring from racing is the rumor[/FONT]
Ashli is going to kick your ass!!! lol.

[MetaLord 9]

Crashing for the exact same reason every time makes you a bad rider. Crashing is a learning opportunity and if you're making the same mistake consistently then you're failing to take advantage of an opportunity to take yourself from being a bad rider to being a good one.

[TFOGGuys]

It's been said: Crashing on the street because you're pushing beyond safe limits(yours, the machine's, or the road's) defines you as a bad rider, and makes you a dumbass because you're unnecessarily endangering others.

Crashing on the racetrack does not necessarily make you a bad rider, unless you continually make exactly the same error, and fail to learn from the experience. If you know why you crashed, and modify your technique to avoid that particular error, you're on the road to becoming a better rider.

[bulldog]

Ashli is going to kick your ass!!! lol. Hey don't be getting me in trouble; I never said it was her idea or anything :slap: He actually told me he is not racing this season and not sure about the future. I personally think he will be back....

Back on topic though, is I use to think crashing was a sign of a bad rider, but after seeing Hoopty learn from his mistakes and up his riding skills from that, then I did learn to be one of the best you have to push your limits to reach the next level. Keep it on the track though...

[Ricky]

Interesting topic... I've never crashed, but I can't say that makes me a good rider. Therefore, I don't believe crashing makes you a bad rider.

[MetaLord 9]

Crashing has definatley made me a little bit of a parnoid rider when it comes to excess gravel & black ice! :lol:

[jimwallace]

heres the thing i am looking at, if you push your limits and crash (by a lot of your definitions) then you are a bad rider, but wouldnt that entirely depend also on how many times you did not crash?

ex. i push my limits quite frequently, on rare occasion i do crash, this means i went beyond my limits, i learn from what i did so i dont do it again, but the times i didnt crash i was still pushin the limits.

this topic went from does crashing make you a bad rider (conception), to does crashing make you a better rider (theory).

[RajunCajun]

Riding hard and possibly crashing in controlled environments are parts of becoming a better rider and come with the territory, ya know. "Riding hard" and crashing on public roads is just irresponsible and dangerous. It is way more dangerous to yourself than the track and way more dangerous to bystanders because they wouldn't be standing in the middle of a track or driving through with their families. I don't think that makes you a better rider, maybe just dead a whole lot faster or living with someone else's life on your hands. Not much theory involved there....

I love to ride hard through twisties and places that aren't full of bystanders but really don't much anymore just because of the consequences. Hopefully one day soon, I can hit up a track day and see what the other side is like.

[jimwallace]

I agree with this..

And Jim.. Ur threads crack me up! (Because i've witnessed one of those crashes!!) LOL
:D im good entertainment.................im sucha :squid:

[konichd]

:(

[salsashark]

^^ Does posting that pic still warrant a "barning" or has that horse been put to pasture?

[jimwallace]

:(
new stunt?

step 1. turn hard, 2. throttle hard, 3. lay bike down, 4. make sure bike wedges FIRMLY under railing, 5. get ride home,6. (hardest part) fein innocence and remorse, 7. get wife to buy new bike you have been eyeballing all year......................good stunt, does it require practice?

[RajunCajun]

new stunt?

step 1. turn hard, 2. throttle hard, 3. lay bike down, 4. make sure bike wedges FIRMLY under railing, 5. get ride home,6. (hardest part) fein innocence and remorse, 7. get wife to buy new bike you have been eyeballing all year......................good stunt, does it require practice?

Ha, you need to teach me that one!

[Mental]

heres the thing i am looking at, if you push your limits and crash (by a lot of your definitions) then you are a bad rider, but wouldnt that entirely depend also on how many times you did not crash?

ex. i push my limits quite frequently, on rare occasion i do crash, this means i went beyond my limits, i learn from what i did so i dont do it again, but the times i didnt crash i was still pushin the limits.

this topic went from does crashing make you a bad rider (conception), to does crashing make you a better rider (theory).

I think the mistake is you are linking crashing and skill. Good and bad. What makes you a good or bad rider are habits.

The equation of pushing your limits = some crashes in also flawed.

You crash as a result of getting in over your head. This is not connected to pushing limits. My last crash was me, in over my head at 5 miles an hour in a parking lot. I was not pushing my limits.

You can push your limits and not crash. The connection is flawed.

Crashing is a seperate issue. There are links to crashing and being a bad rider becuase they can share the same habits. But I have ridden with bad riders who don;t crash. But they don;t stay in their lane, get distracted, can't maintain a steady speed and are generally a PITA to ride with.

Its not the crash or the lack of crashing that makes you good or bad, but the habits that you ride with that make you good or bad. The same habits are connected to crashing or not crashing, but not a gurantee of either.

The same for pushing your limits.

Good or bad is how you ride, not how many times you crash or not.

[kawasakirob]

HELL NO easy question. Valentino crashes.....is he pushing the limit.....yes. Bad rider....?!!!!! Give me a break. If you want to go fast "properly" you will fall down. My dad's got hundreds of thousands of miles under his belt and never fallen down. safe rider? yes. Someone who has crashed a bunch and is a safe rider? yes. Who cares if you crash or have crashed as long as you ride safe when you are in a group. That's all that counts. The people that don't bend it over in a corner I guess will never know what that feels like until they except the risk and step out of their boundary. Chances are they will fall down before reaching that level, and hopefully they will survive...knock on wood. If you push the limits and want your riding to be taken a step further, you WILL crash at some point. You fell down learning to walk, does that mean you cannot run?

[kawasakirob]

I've crashed 8 times......yep yep yep. Cars, trucks, cows, getting in over my head, internal bleeding, major stiches....I lived, most people are not as lucky, just pray that when you do get over your head, you will be ok.

[Fizzy]

Lorenzo had a HUGE crash last year and won rookie of the year in GP... Rossi crashed out of the Le Mans race 2 weeks ago...

I don't think Crashing makes you a bad rider... Riding outside of your skill limit does. There are some crashes you can't really stop - people pulling out in front of you ( 7 screws in my left hand), or gravel/mud/dirt in a turn causing you to lose traction points...


Now if you put tire shine on your tires you deserve what you get...

Crashes are always a combination of factors, depending on what you do to mitigate those factors and give yourself as much as a buffer as possible determines what makes you a good or bad rider...


IMO

[Captain Obvious]

HELL NO easy question. Valentino crashes.....is he pushing the limit.....yes. Bad rider....?!!!!! Give me a break.

Yeah, well, he also has historically won @45% of his races! :shocked: Perhaps you could pick a mere mortal to use as a bench mark and not a demi-god.





Crashing isn't always the sign of a bad rider, constantly riding beyond ones ability does. Crashing means your bad luck finally caught up with you. Plenty of people go down on unseen oil or patches of sand in a turn at very safe responsible speeds. Doesn't necessarily make you bad.

[kawasakirob]

Yeah, well, he also has historically won @45% of his races! :shocked: Perhaps you could pick a mere mortal to use as a bench mark and not a demi-god.


Colin Edwards?

[drevinci]

I think that crashing gives you a chance to evaluate how you've been riding (given that you survive the crash) Riding like a jackass on the streets and crashing should be a big indicator to take it down a notch and save it for the track or a secluded parking lot if you're stunting.

Low siding because of sand in corners or slick paint on the road will raise your awareness for hidden obstacles but running +100 on the highway and crashing into the back of an Escalade is just showing that you are riding too far outside of common sense.

[PhL0aTeR]

i didnt dredge through all the responses, but simply put, if you dont learn from your crashes, yes, but if you learned something that made you a better rider, then nah....

[Captain Obvious]

Colin Edwards?

hehe, yes, the boogger pickin' red neck is a better example. But I still wish I was as bad a rider as him! :) Hell, I can't even crash as fast as him. One of my favorite pictures ever.

http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/attachments/street-track/11416d1188948791-aprilia-rsw-500-v2-sale-edwards_fire_1.jpg

[lovinCO]

Crashes happen to most everyone at some point, but a lot of crashing is a sign of poor judgement. Crashing sucks it's expensive and painful. Avoid. :)

[Matt]

That bike should never go anywhere that your head hasn't already been. When it gets there before you do, you are left with very few options and the bike ends up on its side.

Excellent statement.

In 26 years of riding I've crashed twice. Once on the street (1989) and once on the track (2002). Both crashes resulted in completely destroyed bikes. Both crashes can be attributed to exactly what Mental said, the bike was ahead of me.

I think almost all street and track day crashes can be avoided. There's always the possibility of an equipment failure or being run into, outside those situations your goal should be to never crash. Its better to come home in one piece than to push it somewhere and crash.

Professional racers can't be used as a yard stick. They are being paid to ride competitively, they are being furnished with all their equipment. Its a totally different world and mindset. It can't be applied to street riding or track days. I was at the Freddie Spencer school several years ago when Freddie made the comment that he wasn't being paid to fall down any more, so he doesn't.

I've ridden 100,000+ miles on the street and done about 60 track days over the years. I hope to be riding and doing track days for another 20 years and hope to never experience another crash.

[sugarrey]

I have been riding since 79. Dirt bikes as a young kid and street bikes now for about 15 years. I have fell once. Doing a wheelie, showing off and running into the back of a car :banghead:

Last weekend I had an incident but didnt crash, overshot a corner in the canyons. But it is true that if another rider or car was there things would've been much different. I just parked her upright about 5 feet off the street into a mud berm about 4" thick.

I ran into some gravel and didnt want to lean into the corner so just decided to go straight. If there was a car or bike coming I would've attempted to lean it into the corner, but there wasn't so I made a decision.

Was it a mis-cue? Hell yeah, going to fast for conditions, not riding over my head, driving too fast for conditions.

Being that I have been riding for over 20 years, I have had incidents twice in the last 2 years...What does this mean? Not sure. But it has defiintely made me more paranoid about riding over my head.

CRASHING DOESN'T MAKE YOU A BAD RIDER AS LONG AS YOU LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES!!! I HAVE, AND CONTINUE TO LEARN!

[kawasakirob]

hehe, yes, the boogger pickin' red neck is a better example. But I still wish I was as bad a rider as him! :) Hell, I can't even crash as fast as him. One of my favorite pictures ever.

http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/attachments/street-track/11416d1188948791-aprilia-rsw-500-v2-sale-edwards_fire_1.jpg

The Cube, what a wicked bike. I understand though, I wish I was as terrible as him to:)

[Bueller]

Crash=Fail

It is a single occurance event.

Every event is different, with different causes.

Good or bad rider can't be determined by a single event, it is a skill level.

repeating the same mistake, by pushing past ones limits repeatedly, would make one a stupid/insane rider.