Denver police sue city

[Bueller]

http://cbs4denver.com/investigates/Donning.Doffing.lawsuit.2.1074506.html


Another "perk"?

[Nick_Ninja]

God --------- ....... :roll:

[dm_gsxr]

I understand how it can be controversial. People don't understand what they have to do to get ready for work.

The problem isn't that they want to get paid for getting dressed at home. They're required to come to work in civvies to a locker, get changed into their uniform, and report for roll call. They don't start work until after roll call.

The original suit was from some meatpackers (read the article). Same situation. They're required to be ready to work at 8am (for example). But they have to get dressed into their protective suit which can take 30 minutes. So they come in at 7:30 or 7 to change into work clothes and protective gear. At 8am they punch in and start in at killing cows.

Right now you might come to work at 7am but not really start work until 8. What if you didn't get paid until your first meeting, until you lifted your hammer, or until the first customer asked for fries instead of at 7am? But you had to be ready for that first meeting. You had to be at the job site with hammer in hand. You had to have your McDonalds uniform on. All before 8am.

I'm with them. If I have to be at work at 7am, I leave at 4pm (unless there's an emergency of course) and I get paid for those hours.

Carl

[Shea]

I don't get paid to dress myself in the morning, nor do I get paid the time it takes me to commute from home to work. Those things were understood when I took the job. Unbelievable...typical union mentality.

[dirkterrell]

Among the other claims, the police department has not been compensating officers for the time it takes them to clean and maintain their "take home" department vehicles.

I wonder if officers pay for the use of the car for the trip to and from work? I agree with Shea. This is the kind of thing that gives unions a bad name.

Dirk

[MetaLord 9]

Maintaining the car and other police owned property I can see b/c it's actually saving the dept on maintenance labor. But the day I start getting paid for sitting in traffic b/c all of c470 came to halt while one of these guys was giving someone a ticket is they day I support their cause.

[dm_gsxr]

Maintaining the car and other police owned property I can see b/c it's actually saving the dept on maintenance labor. But the day I start getting paid for sitting in traffic b/c all of c470 came to halt while one of these guys was giving someone a ticket is they day I support their cause.

You can't blame the cops for that. The day everyone stops fricking rubbernecking for every little thing that happens fricking _near_ the damned freeway, is the day you won't be delayed. I'd wait until the sun burns out since that'll happen first.

Carl

[Bueller]

Right now you might come to work at 7am but not really start work until 8. What if you didn't get paid until your first meeting, until you lifted your hammer, or until the first customer asked for fries instead of at 7am? But you had to be ready for that first meeting. You had to be at the job site with hammer in hand. You had to have your McDonalds uniform on. All before 8am.


I get paid to do my job for 8 hrs, my job requires a crapload more tools than these heros. My day starts at 7:00 and that is when I start. Dressed and ready to preform my job. Generally we pick up 10 min. before quiting time, but that is to lock up company tools.
Most people in our shop are ex-Union (including the owner), and this isn't how we work. 8hrs of work for 8 hrs of pay

[Skinbabe]

I get paid to do my job for 8 hrs, my job requires a crapload more tools than these heros. My day starts at 7:00 and that is when I start. Dressed and ready to preform my job. Generally we pick up 10 min. before quiting time, but that is to lock up company tools.
Most people in our shop are ex-Union (including the owner), and this isn't how we work. 8hrs of work for 8 hrs of pay

I hope that you are not being sarcastic in calling them "these heroes" because though you may not like when you get a ticket, that's what most of them truly are.

For future posts, lets just debate on the issues. Please guys be mature, no police bashing. (not saying that whats what you were doing Bueller, but I can see this thread going that way fast)

[MetaLord 9]

You can't blame the cops for that. The day everyone stops fricking rubbernecking for every little thing that happens fricking _near_ the damned freeway, is the day you won't be delayed. I'd wait until the sun burns out since that'll happen first.

Carl
I'm not blaming them for it at all, but I am saying that I'm required to sit through it on a regular basis and I don't bitch about not being paid for it. When I start getting paid for that, then I'll back their cause!

[TFOGGuys]

The only OTHER job I can think of that pays for the employees to dress and undress requires a brass pole, black lights, and the copious consumption of alcohol....

[Bueller]

I hope that you are not being sarcastic in calling them "these heroes" because though you may not like when you get a ticket, that's what most of them truly are.

For future posts, lets just debate on the issues. Please guys be mature, no police bashing. (not saying that whats what you were doing Bueller, but I can see this thread going that way fast)
Not police bashing, dumb ass bashing. Not a police thing it's an entitlement issue.

Even the Jeffco Sheriff says it's "inappropriate"

[MetaLord 9]

Not a police thing it's an entitlement issue.
but we's got's rights! :jerkoff:

[64BonnieLass]

I can think of a bunch of people who would just LOVE to get a job on the Police Force. They would be happy to get dressed without pay. :)

(honestly I think it's ridiculous, but I can kinda see both sides - kinda)

[Mother Goose]

I'm just thinking that they'll take advantage of it. It may take them 30ish minutes to get ready, but you know there's that one guy that will get there early, clock in, bullshit for a half hour, then get ready. I think it's crap.

[Skinbabe]

I can think of a bunch of people who would just LOVE to get a job on the Police Force. They would be happy to get dressed without pay. :)

(honestly I think it's ridiculous, but I can kinda see both sides - kinda)
I agree with the kinda. We dont have 2 mill right now to settle this. You should take what you have and be happy you even have a job and one you like at that. BUT... for those of on salary, we get paid for 8 hours if we work it, we get paid for 8 hours even if we work 10. The police are not salary employees for the city, they get paid overtime if they work it. If they have to show up at work 30 mins early to put on all the required gear to do their job, why isn't that 30 mins part of their work day?

[Mother Goose]

I agree with the kinda. We dont have 2 mill right now to settle this. You should take what you have and be happy you even have a job and one you like at that. BUT... for those of on salary, we get paid for 8 hours if we work it, we get paid for 8 hours even if we work 10. The police are not salary employees for the city, they get paid overtime if they work it. If they have to show up at work 30 mins early to put on all the required gear to do their job, why isn't that 30 mins part of their work day?
Then just cut their hours out on the streets. Say they are usually working 8 hours/day.... they want to be paid for putting on their gear, and eventually will want to be paid to take it off too. Keep them on the street for only 7 hours and pay them that other hour for their pampering time.

[TFOGGuys]

I agree with the kinda. We dont have $200 mill right now to settle this. You should take what you have and be happy you even have a job and one you like at that. BUT... for those of on salary, we get paid for 8 hours if we work it, we get paid for 8 hours even if we work 10. The police are not salary employees for the city, they get paid overtime if they work it. If they have to show up at work 30 mins early to put on all the required gear to do their job, why isn't that 30 mins part of their work day?

Fixed, you dropped a couple of zeroes that make it even MORE ridiculous.

My stepkid is a Denver Sheriff's deputy, and even he thinks it's bullshit.

[Nick_Ninja]

I say cut the 'hero's' budget --- RIGHT NOW. Upgrade a road or fix a bridge with the savings. I'll bash cops anytime I feel like it.

[Skinbabe]

I say cut the 'hero's' budget --- RIGHT NOW. Upgrade a road or fix a bridge with the savings. I'll bash cops anytime I feel like it.

Then I hope one day you need one and they dont come.


Then just cut their hours out on the streets. Say they are usually working 8 hours/day.... they want to be paid for putting on their gear, and eventually will want to be paid to take it off too. Keep them on the street for only 7 hours and pay them that other hour for their pampering time.
I agree 100%

[MetaLord 9]

Then just cut their hours out on the streets. Say they are usually working 8 hours/day.... they want to be paid for putting on their gear, and eventually will want to be paid to take it off too. Keep them on the street for only 7 hours and pay them that other hour for their pampering time.

Exactly! I don't get paid for getting up, getting dressed, and sitting in traffic to be at work at 7. Hell every time I eat food or sleep it's so I can be fully functional and alert at work, so I should get paid for that too. In fact, my food, house, and toilet paper should all be paid for too since they all contributed to my being at work with maximum efficiency. :jerkoff:


I'll bash cops anytime I feel like it.
Jeff, you're such a badass! :cool:

[Bueller]

Then I hope one day you need one and they dont come.



They always come when you don't need 'em

[Skinbabe]

They always come when you don't need 'em
They also come when you do.

[Bueller]

Not if they are getting dressed

[Shea]

I agree with the kinda. We dont have 2 mill right now to settle this. You should take what you have and be happy you even have a job and one you like at that. BUT... for those of on salary, we get paid for 8 hours if we work it, we get paid for 8 hours even if we work 10. The police are not salary employees for the city, they get paid overtime if they work it. If they have to show up at work 30 mins early to put on all the required gear to do their job, why isn't that 30 mins part of their work day?

Well then why isn't my commute part of my work day? I'm not at home enjoying life so why don't I get paid for it? Fact is getting ready for work has never been considered part of any job...except now meat packers.

I find it interesting that they make the distinction that they can't get ready at home. So putting on a uniform at home is not considered "part of the work day" but making them go to the station and put it on there is?...really?

And it's an additional 200 million not 2, according to the article.

[Mother Goose]

Not if they are getting dressed
:spit:

[Skinbabe]

Not if they are getting dressed
:pointlaugh:Good point!!

[MetaLord 9]

Sorry officer, I was speeding because I had to take time to put my clothes on this morning while I was off the clock and it's making me late to work, so since I paid for you to put your clothes on this morning, I'm just gonna get back to my commute (which I'm also not getting paid for) without that ticket in your hand.

[Skinbabe]

And it's an additional 200 million not 2, according to the article.

Right, pardon my typo... and agreed. 2 mill or 200 mill to pay them to get dressed, in this economy we are in is out of hand for sure.

[Shea]

Right, pardon my typo... and agreed. 2 mill or 200 mill to pay them to get dressed, in this economy we are in is out of hand for sure.

Even if we were rolling in dough I would disagree with it.

[Devaclis]

I ride to work every day. EVERY DAY. It takes me about 15 minutes to get ready and geared up to ride to work. I could choose to work from home, where I do not need to take this time to get ready. These people are ALSO making a choice about what they do for a living. They can choose another line of work that does not come with the "hassle of getting geared up". They need to lay off the band wagon lawsuit shit and focus more on doing their duty as a civil servant. Are they bitching about their free cars and free gas and free ammo and free personal safety devices? I think not.

[TFOGGuys]

Then I hope one day you need one and they dont come.


My experience has been that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Unfortunately, the vast majority of our cops have been forced into a role of tax collector or social babysitter, rather than doing anything to actively prevent crime, mostly because every time they roust some known, obvious thug, said thug screams "profiling". My take: If you don't want to be known as or profiled as a criminal, don't be or act like a criminal. If you dress in clothes that look like you're trying to conceal a weapon, and act suspiciously, chances are you're gonna get hassled.

Back to the subject at hand, it's true that the police have somewhat different requirements when dressing for work than most of us, but that pretty much comes with the territory.

[MetaLord 9]

I'm complaining about my "free" ticket, does that count? (I got it for free! fail. )

[modette99]

..

[Skinbabe]

I see both sides...
Maybe they should say you get 10 minutes to get dressed and undressed, or how about get dressed at home and come in (what is the big deal with that). Maybe take roll call and start the brief in the locker room.

The cops could make it worst for them selfs. Department might say fine, but now you need to dress at home and come in, and we will not unlock the door till 5 minutes before starting time, or you are not allowed to enter till then. Maybe they will say fine we will take away your use of a vehicle...no more storing them at home. All I can say is the cops better tread lightly on their demands.
I agree.

[MetaLord 9]

Agreed. I'm still missing why these officers aren't being told that "you've got 8 hours in the work day. Get dressed using 30 minutes of that day and get to work or come to work dressed. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too."

[Nick_Ninja]

Not if they are getting dressed

and doing their nails .................

[Devaclis]

Frivolous = $200million

[Ricky]

I find this ridiculous. If you don't like how it goes, find another job. I know flight attendants that spend more time getting ready for a flight, yet they get paid 1/3 what some cops do. IMO, it's part of the job. How ridiculous they are asking for more money at this point in time, with the economy the way it is. If this is such an "honor", then the joy of putting on the uniform every time they go to work, should be payment enough.

[BigE]

This whole "get paid for getting dressed" issue was brought up where I last worked. It is a pharmaceutical plant and we had uniforms that we had to wear there then shower and change after work to prevent bringing contaminants home with you. There were a few folks who always said that they should be paid for donning/doffing their uniforms (the company paid 10 minutes after you clocked out for shower time) and they were always told the same thing...if you don't like it...there's the door, good luck on your job hunt.

[Snowman]

Working is not a right. It’s an agreement between an employee and an employer to a set of expectations in exchange for payment. What is expected and how this is compensated can be anything, fair or not.

There are extremes both ways. From executives getting golden parachutes even if they run the company into the ground to contractors not paying for overtime to hourly workers because they are not in the US.

Now workers have every right to renegotiate this agreement. So if the cops what to be paid for getting dressed and going to their morning roll call meeting they should renegotiate their contract. Running to the courts to solve these disputes just cost everyone unnecessary time and money.

[MetaLord 9]

The phrase "at will employer " applies here I feel

[Pharmgirl]

I think that we should all come to work naked. Maybe then someone will be willing to pay me to get dressed. Or at least send me home.

[Keepitgreen]

Getting paid to do laundry?
Why not get a contract with Cintas or something like that.. That might be cheaper..

Shoot...
I done heard it all now..

[dm_gsxr]

Of course when someone sues and wins, there's precedent and others can now sue.

As an exempt employee for many years, I get paid for 8 hours a day period. Doesn't matter that I spend time at home reading or learning something new. It's expected as part of my career (not the current job but the entire learning process).

I was saying I can see their point. If they're paid hourly and are required to be at work 30 minutes prior to the job, they should get paid for those 30 minutes.

When I was an MP, the shift started at 8, 4, and midnight. We had to go to the armory to check out our weapon and ammo. Then the motor pool to check out a vehicle (which included a checklist to check tires, lights, and the condition of the vehicle), get gas if appropriate, and be at roll call 30 minutes prior to shift start for inspection and briefing. End of shift was the reverse. At 4 the next shift took over and we had to take the vehicles back, get gas and get the vehicle checked in. Then return the weapon. After removing the ammo and making sure the gun was unloaded, you fired into the sand filled barrel to make sure it was unloaded. Heaven help you if a round was still chambered :)

Granted that's The Army and there may be a lot more work involved than with a Denver cop. Still, I have some sympathy for them :)

Carl

[modette99]

..

[dm_gsxr]

^ However you signed up for the Army and they own your ass till you get out. In fact you are always at work as you are always on call...hmmm maybe people in the Army should sue as they are not paid for their time as they are at work in a sense 24/7.

Understand. I wasn't complaining about being an MP or in The Army. I enjoyed it actually. And I don't complain about my current career choice. If I have a problem at a job, I change jobs. I had a problem with the way IBM works so I changed jobs. If all IT jobs were run like IBM, I'd have a real problem. I'd either have to suck it up, change careers or try to change it so it's not a problem any more.

But I was just using my own experience to understand where they're coming from. If you don't have the experience, either by participating or hearing/reading about it, it may be hard to sympathise.

I agree that it should be renegotiated at the next Union talks vs suing the government for money it doesn't have. Heck, it might be a punitive action because of the reduction in personnel due to budget shortfalls. It will certainly hurt them. If they win, the government will have to cut more services and more personnel, including Denver cops.

But being silly or by causing themselves problems further down the road doesn't mean I don't understand where they're coming from. I think they're crazy for doing it right now though :)

Carl

[modette99]

..

[UglykidJoe]

These people are ALSO making a choice about what they do for a living. They can choose another line of work that does not come with the "hassle of getting geared up".

+1

[CaneZach]

Personally, I think it's ridiculous, but as someone else said, the precedent has been set. When the meatpackers took their employer to court and won, they told every other workforce that has to wear specialized gear that they too can claim "donning and doffing" time. Since police uniforms require specialized gear in order for them to do their job, they now have grounds to sue. As frivolous as I think this lawsuit is, the ones to blame here aren't the officers, but the unions who seek these actions and the meatpackers' union that gave them a foothold to begin with.

[salsashark]

Personally, I think it's ridiculous, but as someone else said, the precedent has been set. When the meatpackers took their employer to court and won, they told every other workforce that has to wear specialized gear that they too can claim "donning and doffing" time. Since police uniforms require specialized gear in order for them to do their job, they now have grounds to sue. As frivolous as I think this lawsuit is, the ones to blame here aren't the officers, but the unions who seek these actions and the meatpackers' union that gave them a foothold to begin with.

Or the court that decided with the meatpackers...

The article also mentioned that the Pheonix police suit was thrown out. Had the original court not set a precedent, this wouldn't be an issue. Now it's a waste of everyone's time and money!

YEAH!!!! F'd up legal system FTL!!!

[Wintermute]

Shorter CSC wingnut circle jerk:
_______________________________________

We're all for the little guy. Unless the little guy is in a union, then fuck him.
_______________________________________

[MetaLord 9]

Shorter CSC wingnut circle jerk:
_______________________________________

We're all for the little guy. Unless the little guy is in a union, then fuck him.
_______________________________________
Nice add.

welcome to the circle :jerkoff:

[Devaclis]

Fuck the little guy. He hits like a girl.

[Horsman]

Yeah.. what he said.... Why are we all yelling????
http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/brick.jpg

[TFOGGuys]

Shorter CSC wingnut circle jerk:
_______________________________________

We're all for the little guy. Unless the little guy is in a union, then fuck him.
_______________________________________

Police officers need a union like a deer hunter needs an accordion.... :wtf:

[Zanos]

Well deserved.

[Wintermute]

I don't know Jim, I think all workers have the right to organize, including police.

I just hate the Limbaugh-ite reflexive union hate.(Like that 100mil-a-year asshole understands anything about the dangerous, dirty jobs many unionized people do.) Unions aren't perfect, but they've done more to ensure a large middle class in this country than any other single thing.

Everybody in here has at least one relative who was able to comfortably raise and educate a family on union wages. I've got lots of cousins raised by uncles who worked in the unionized brick plants of Central MO.

[Nick_Ninja]

I'm fifth generation Coloradan. None of my family has ever worked for a union in all those generations --- except myself when I drove for RTD. The Amalgamated Transit Union can kiss my ass. They didn't do shit for me or my fellow workers but take dollars from our paychecks.

I'm glad to have come from a state that hosted the very first union management dispute.

Management - 1
Unions - 0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_massacre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp2BK7pKJOI

[Devaclis]

Union hate has been around longer than Rush for fucks sake. Not everyone is a Rush-ite. I have never even listened to the guy. Having worked for a major telco, and another union shop I will not mention I will tell you this: The unions guys got more pay, better benefits, and less shit done! The rigmarole, the bureaucracy, and the plain hassle of doing ANYTHING made the comany itself suffer.

Unions are nothing but government in business. They do not belong, they are old and outdated, and the only hinder progress. Sure, bitch that they protect the workers rights. Guess what? I work in IT and MY rights are protected. I know hundreds of people from waiters, to managers in inurance, to physical therapists. ALL of their workers rights are protected. And they don't have to pay a corrupt board of their "peers" to get that protection.

Unions are a sham. They went out with the industrial revolution. Get over it.

[MetaLord 9]

The heyday of unions is long past, as Dana brought up. Unions are no longer absolute requirements to ensure that worker's rights are protected. They did their jobs in the past and now many, not neccessarily all, are superfluous.

HOWEVER, the whole thing with unions is past the point. THE POINT of this thread was that requesting to get paid to put your clothes on in the morning is a pretty batshit crazy demand, regardless of who's making it.

[Geology Rocks]

Joe

[Nick_Ninja]

<snip>Deal with it...dont like it? get a new job as I know of about 5 million people who would do your job.

joe

All I can think of is Air Traffic Controllers and Ronald Reagan. :twisted:

http://media.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2006/aug/reagan/reaganflag200.jpg

Twenty-five years ago, on Aug. 3, 1981, more than 12,000 members of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization walked off the job, setting off a chain of events that would redefine labor relations in America.
In response to the walkout, President Ronald Reagan issued one of the defining statements of his presidency. He said the striking air-traffic controllers were in violation of the law; if they did not report to work within 48 hours, their jobs would be terminated.

[Geology Rocks]

delete

[Nick_Ninja]

if the cops walked out I am putting on my leathers and going nuts....:p

joe

I'll join you. Isn't that called anarchy?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Anarchy_A_Stencil.jpg/800px-Anarchy_A_Stencil.jpg

[Shea]

I don't know Jim, I think all workers have the right to organize, including police.

I just hate the Limbaugh-ite reflexive union hate.(Like that 100mil-a-year asshole understands anything about the dangerous, dirty jobs many unionized people do.) Unions aren't perfect, but they've done more to ensure a large middle class in this country than any other single thing.

Everybody in here has at least one relative who was able to comfortably raise and educate a family on union wages. I've got lots of cousins raised by uncles who worked in the unionized brick plants of Central MO.

For fuck's sake Winter...anybody who disagrees with your world view is labeled a right-wing, Rush loving nutjob. Get a new fucking tune would you?

Yes I can't stand unions. As stated their usefulness has long since passed. Personally I will never join a union and play second fiddle to some aging jerk off who gets promoted a head of me because he's been sucking at the union tit longer then me. I DESPISE the inefficiency that unions bred and the entitlement mentality that they foster. I can't stand people who think they are owed something by someone else that they didn't earn.

Why does it take three days to get a desk moved in a union shop when it can take me 10 min. Why does it take four people to the job of one? What right is that protecting Winter? What benefit to our economy is that promoting? You have no right to a job.

[Shea]

if the cops walked out I am putting on my leathers and going nuts....:p

joe

Isn't funny that if I walk off a job it's called "job abandonment" but if some union does it, it's called a "strike" and they get their job back in the end. If they walk, fire all their asses and hire them back at half pay.

[Wintermute]

Whatever Shea, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. What other issue than gay marriage do you differ with Rush on?

Nick, the Ludlow Massacre was hilarious. Those 11 kids got what they deserved. Go management! Seeing as how you've got his logo in your sig, I'm sure HST would agree. He was a big fan of the powerful over the powerless.

[whitebrad]

not such a shock. gubment jobs, you know... sort of like tenure...

you know, reading the article, i was first angry, thinking about how they are public servants and all of that...
i sort of thought about it reading all of the posts and must say i see both sides of the issue:

greed vs. bureaucracy...

the fact that it sort of makes sense is saddening because when they end up winning and then we have to pay them some more, well, they might need to write more tickets to cover this new windfall...

I guess they just don't know how good they have it. They are heroes, after all, and deserve so much, llike free shit, they shouldn't have to follow the law, either...

the funny thing is that unions have become interest groups. look at the prison guard unions' lobby opposing modifications of sentencing guidelines that were completely unfair... can't have a drop in prisoners, that's their stock in trade!

anyway, don't be shocked when they win, they do have a powerful lobby

[The Black Knight]

FIRST quote:
I understand how it can be controversial. People don't understand what they have to do to get ready for work.

The problem isn't that they want to get paid for getting dressed at home. They're required to come to work in civvies to a locker, get changed into their uniform, and report for roll call. They don't start work until after roll call.

The original suit was from some meatpackers (read the article). Same situation. They're required to be ready to work at 8am (for example). But they have to get dressed into their protective suit which can take 30 minutes. So they come in at 7:30 or 7 to change into work clothes and protective gear. At 8am they punch in and start in at killing cows.

Right now you might come to work at 7am but not really start work until 8. What if you didn't get paid until your first meeting, until you lifted your hammer, or until the first customer asked for fries instead of at 7am? But you had to be ready for that first meeting. You had to be at the job site with hammer in hand. You had to have your McDonalds uniform on. All before 8am.

I'm with them. If I have to be at work at 7am, I leave at 4pm (unless there's an emergency of course) and I get paid for those hours.


SECOND quote:
Of course when someone sues and wins, there's precedent and others can now sue.

As an exempt employee for many years, I get paid for 8 hours a day period. Doesn't matter that I spend time at home reading or learning something new. It's expected as part of my career (not the current job but the entire learning process).

I was saying I can see their point. If they're paid hourly and are required to be at work 30 minutes prior to the job, they should get paid for those 30 minutes.

When I was an MP, the shift started at 8, 4, and midnight. We had to go to the armory to check out our weapon and ammo. Then the motor pool to check out a vehicle (which included a checklist to check tires, lights, and the condition of the vehicle), get gas if appropriate, and be at roll call 30 minutes prior to shift start for inspection and briefing. End of shift was the reverse. At 4 the next shift took over and we had to take the vehicles back, get gas and get the vehicle checked in. Then return the weapon. After removing the ammo and making sure the gun was unloaded, you fired into the sand filled barrel to make sure it was unloaded. Heaven help you if a round was still chambered

Granted that's The Army and there may be a lot more work involved than with a Denver cop. Still, I have some sympathy for them

Carl


THIRD quote:
I understand how it can be controversial. People don't understand what they have to do to get ready for work.

The problem isn't that they want to get paid for getting dressed at home. They're required to come to work in civvies to a locker, get changed into their uniform, and report for roll call. They don't start work until after roll call.


Carl


Understand. I wasn't complaining about being an MP or in The Army. I enjoyed it actually. And I don't complain about my current career choice. If I have a problem at a job, I change jobs. I had a problem with the way IBM works so I changed jobs. If all IT jobs were run like IBM, I'd have a real problem. I'd either have to suck it up, change careers or try to change it so it's not a problem any more.

But I was just using my own experience to understand where they're coming from. If you don't have the experience, either by participating or hearing/reading about it, it may be hard to sympathise.

I agree that it should be renegotiated at the next Union talks vs suing the government for money it doesn't have. Heck, it might be a punitive action because of the reduction in personnel due to budget shortfalls. It will certainly hurt them. If they win, the government will have to cut more services and more personnel, including Denver cops.

But being silly or by causing themselves problems further down the road doesn't mean I don't understand where they're coming from. I think they're crazy for doing it right now though :)

Carl
Carl,


I'd like to hit on your points mainly because you seem to be very much in favor of Denver PD doing this.

Allow me to give you some insight as to where they got their idea from. Colorado Springs PD, that's right CSPD already sued the City of Colorado Springs two years ago, for the very same thing. They bitched and hollered because they had to get dressed before work, they had to fill out paperwork and answer email/voice-mail when they could.

How do I know all this?? Well I happen to be an employee for the City of Colo. Spgs/ in the Parks and Rec department to be more specific. And you know what?? I think it's bullshit!!, I have to get ready before I come to work. I have to have my CS Parks & Rec shirt on, required to wear steel toe/safety toe boots, blah blah blah.

So why can't I ask for the same thing as CSPD and now DPD??? They don't do anything that I don't. They get dressed the same way, yeah wear a badge and a gun, and I run a backhoe and skidloader. We both fill different parts of the cities integral system to provide services to the public.

I've had to attend meetings outside of work(far and few between), sit in for my supervisor on sub-structure meetings, staff meetings and all the sort. You don't see me complaining about getting Supervisor pay, when I've had to fill in for my boss when he's out of the office.

Thanks to CSPD, now every department in Colorado Springs has a window for when we clock in. We "cannot" clock in no earlier then 7 minutes before our start time, and "cannot" clock out no later than 7 minutes of quitting time. You know what happens when we have to work late?? Our freaking Supervisor now has to go through all the paperwork just to approve some overtime? I mean seriously, where does this save in man power and make time more efficient??? All it did, was create more paperwork to be filled out and now more of my bosses time is spent going through stupid timesheets to make sure everything is in order.

What really gets me hot under the collar is the fact I'm in the organization and I see how CSPD has abused their lawsuit. Funny thing with all this extra time they now "HAVE", they still sit 3, 4 or 5 cars across underneath bridges and overpasses, to shoot the bull for a few hours. How do I know? Because they are usually in my way when I'm mowing some areas on a tractor.

So why couldn't they use all this time sitting on their asses to fill out paper work? return phone calls and respond to emails??

Oh I get it, they just wanted some compenstation for having to come to work and get dressed with about being paid for it. Pure and simple man, no matter which you freaking slice it, that's how they operate.

And another thing, since we're on the topic of CSPD. Why is it, my department gets cut 34% percent of it's annual budget(and we were told by city council to give what they asked for), and CSPD went kicking and screaming about a piddly 2.5% they got asked for. THEN!! they only had to give up 1%, yeah 1 F**king % of their total budget, while my department and other departments in the city had to cover their asses, in this budget crisis.

Not counting the $1.2 million in stimulus money CSPD is getting, on top of $800k in grant money that was given to them in order to save positions. $2 million dollars of money, to fund un-productive and sub par performance. And what does Park and Rec get?? Oh yeah, for the 2010 fiscal year, we are told the City of Colo Spgs is facing "up to" $23 million(closer to $14 million, if all goes well, I guess $14 mil short is better than $23 mil), and Parks and Rec is getting JAMMED!! for another 3 million in losses.

On top of all the lay-offs and budget cuts to the departments city wide. CSPD have the balls to ask for a f**king raise??? Are you kidding me?? As if they don't already take 56% of the City's budget(CSPD and CSFD) get $2 million in monies given, now they want damn raises?? Where does it end man??

I'm sorry I have no sympathy for CSPD, or DPD for trying to pull this stunt now. Thing is they know CSPD got it to work, so now they are going to try it. They knew the job when they applied for it. Just like I knew my job requirements, and like every other American knows their job requirements. We just do them. What they hell makes Police Departments any better??

I'll tell you one thing, CSPD is now considered "garbage" among the rest of the City departments. We don't go out of our way to help them anymore and we sure as s**t aren't giving time out of our days, away from our work and duties to feel bad and stand behind them in this issue.

CSPD got real Elitiest and now DPD is going to do the same thing and believe the rest of the city organizations are going to hate their PD just like we hate ours.

P.S.
I felt I needed to add some more. Let me be clear, in that I'm law abiding and I support cops when are actually "doing" their jobs. I know they have rough days, just like I have rough days. But it's very hard for me as an employee of the City that's part of an organization that caters to CSPD like it does, to feel their pain and see where they are coming from. It's a tough call for me and I'll never see the point in this, it's like biting the hand that feeds.

[LiQuIdAiR=OTB=]

This proves what I've always sad. The system is broken. And those doing are those charged to protect it. It's like an A-Sexual creature going at it's self. too much? That's what this article reminds me of.

[whitebrad]

This proves what I've always sad. The system is broken. And those doing are those charged to protect it. It's like an A-Sexual creature going at it's self. too much? That's what this article reminds me of.

:yes::up::applause::slappers::hump::lol::spit:

errr, i mean +1...

[T-Dub]

well, not that it matters, but let me give some background from the cops point of view. All big city departments want to be LAPD as they are the gold standard among big city po-po. LAPD's union has fought long and hard to get this passed. Now, all the other LAPD wanna-be's want extra money too. I personally think it's crap. But, whatever. I drive 25 minutes to and from work, get dressed at work and back into civvies prior to leaving the department. I also work out for 45 minutes after work every day. I am expected to be at work at 1730 hrs. and I don't leave until 0615 hrs. then the working out, etc. I get paid from 1745 to 0600. That is what I signed on for, and that is what I do. So, they need to stop being stingey.

[fairrpe86]

Not police bashing, dumb ass bashing. Not a police thing it's an entitlement issue.

Even the Jeffco Sheriff says it's "inappropriate"


Not to be an ass or anything, but you call it dumbass bashing.....well if you plan on doing that, please get your facts straight. The Jeffco Sheriff wasnt once mentioned in the article, it was the Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson who was quoted in the article.

[Fugayzin]

I personally think it's stupid. Just like others throw on a nice dress shirt, some slacks, and some dress shoes and hit the road, I think they can do the same. There should be no debate on whether or not they should get paid to get dressed in the morning, it's just stupid. Denver Police have never been high up on my likeable list just for all the stupid shit they've pulled in the past. Their "wants" should be delt with after they can show some responsibility...even then I believe it's a farfetched idea. They can suck it up just like everybody else.


Not to be an ass or anything, but you call it dumbass bashing.....well if you plan on doing that, please get your facts straight. The Jeffco Sheriff wasnt once mentioned in the article, it was the Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson who was quoted in the article.

Maybe he wasn't referencing the article...didn't think of that did you?

[Bueller]

Not to be an ass or anything, but you call it dumbass bashing.....well if you plan on doing that, please get your facts straight. The Jeffco Sheriff wasnt once mentioned in the article, it was the Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson who was quoted in the article.
Sorry mixed the counties up. Thanks for your concern :roll:

The City workers are all getting a mandatory day off coming up soon to help with the budget deficit. Maybe they can all take a couple more days off to help pay for these people getting dressed, I don't think they will mind.

[Ceez]

Make the Police all salaried...problem solved.:scramble:

[MetaLord 9]

Whatever Shea, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. What other issue than gay marriage do you differ with Rush on?
Dude, not to jump into the middle of this, but doesn't that make you a pinko, commie, leftist, tree hugging, causehead hippie?

You certainly don't seem like it on the board, but that's just the converse to the point you were making. I don't really care either way, just say'n it's a two way street. Anyway, back to mudslinging! :D

...lots and lots and lots of screen real estate...
Dude. Cliff Notes. srsly.

[Shea]

Whatever Shea, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. What other issue than gay marriage do you differ with Rush on?


Abortion, gay marriage, believing that Republicans are without error, his unwillingness to come down hard on Republican stupidity while playing up Democrat's, his stance on drug policy (hypocritical as it may be given his history), his support for foreign military adventures...

Yes I agree with him on a balanced budget, low spending, no national debt, low taxes (for everyone), curbing illegal immigration, minimal government interference in the market, holding politicians accountable (though see above on the R v. D) and a general "getting government out of everyone's life, anti nanny-state" attitude.

I answered your question, now answer mine.

[Shea]

Dude. Cliff Notes. srsly.

...brevity is the soul of wit - Hamlet Act 2, Scene 2

[MetaLord 9]

meh. It's more that making a point is one thing, however a dissertation is going to cause me to skim past the entire post, foresaking the points therein.

[Shea]

meh. It's more that making a point is one thing, however a dissertation is going to cause me to skim past the entire post, foresaking the points therein.

I'm sorry what? I lost you after the second word... :p

[dirkterrell]

Avoid prolixity.

Dirk

[MetaLord 9]

Avoid prolixity.
And consternation.

[Shea]

And consternation.

I hate constipation...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7dPprbzNSc

[#1Townie]

hahaha i wish i got paid to get dressed and undressed every day.. fuck that i should get paid to eat to.. if i dont eat i will die then what will my job do??

[Mental]

Make the Police all salaried...problem solved.:scramble:

Works for the military, and we have to wear specilaty gear.

[TurboGizzmo]

I didnt read the article yet but arent cops salary? I am salary therefore i am paid to sleep, drive, eat, work...8hrs a day or 10 hr day....M-F or Monday till Sunday.....I got a call on Christmas day last year.....

[Xtremjeepn]

Just want to throw in some fuel for the fire.

Cops getting ready for work is totally different than any of the 4 pages of comparisons.

Cops generally HAVE to get dressed at work for several liability reasons. The cities don't want them walking around in uniform anywhere but in the city limits or doing anything that is not official.

Even a simple task like stopping for a cup of coffee on the way into work can turn into a huge liability for the city. For example, if you live in Evergreen, and work in Denver. On your way to work you stop in Littleton for gas. While putting gas in your personal vehicle ......insert potential liability problem here.

-Gas station gets robbed (not your jurisdiction, you don't have a local compatable radio)
-Cop basher takes a pot shot at you with a shot gun.
-etc etc. All sorts of bad things can happen with a cop in uniform but off duty and/or in another jurisdiction.


No other job is really like that. No one is going to ask the "parks and rec" guy to come trim his lawn on the way home. You can go out to dinner in your 3 piece suit you have to wear to the office. No one tries to shoot at you if you are wearing yoru Taco Bell uniform home from work.

Add to all of this that some of the gear in some departments lives at the department, so even if an officer did get ready at home, they would not be fully equiped to do the job if they ran into an issue on the way to and from. No one is going to see you in your WallMart shirt and follow you home to kill you and your family. (radio, some weapons, tazers etc).

Getting dressed for work is one thing, having to wear special equipment and uniform that is ONLY allowed while on duty in the city MAY be another.

I can kinda see both sides. Just wanted to point out what seems to have been missed in all of this.

[Xtremjeepn]

I didnt read the article yet but arent cops salary? I am salary therefore i am paid to sleep, drive, eat, work...8hrs a day or 10 hr day....M-F or Monday till Sunday.....I got a call on Christmas day last year.....


Usually salary for X amount of hours in a week, anything over that is overtime.

[Nick_Ninja]

I say cut their budgets. :down:

[#1Townie]

Just want to throw in some fuel for the fire.

Cops getting ready for work is totally different than any of the 4 pages of comparisons.

Cops generally HAVE to get dressed at work for several liability reasons. The cities don't want them walking around in uniform anywhere but in the city limits or doing anything that is not official.

Even a simple task like stopping for a cup of coffee on the way into work can turn into a huge liability for the city. For example, if you live in Evergreen, and work in Denver. On your way to work you stop in Littleton for gas. While putting gas in your personal vehicle ......insert potential liability problem here.

-Gas station gets robbed (not your jurisdiction, you don't have a local compatable radio)
-Cop basher takes a pot shot at you with a shot gun.
-etc etc. All sorts of bad things can happen with a cop in uniform but off duty and/or in another jurisdiction.


No other job is really like that. No one is going to ask the "parks and rec" guy to come trim his lawn on the way home. You can go out to dinner in your 3 piece suit you have to wear to the office. No one tries to shoot at you if you are wearing yoru Taco Bell uniform home from work.

Add to all of this that some of the gear in some departments lives at the department, so even if an officer did get ready at home, they would not be fully equiped to do the job if they ran into an issue on the way to and from. No one is going to see you in your WallMart shirt and follow you home to kill you and your family. (radio, some weapons, tazers etc).

Getting dressed for work is one thing, having to wear special equipment and uniform that is ONLY allowed while on duty in the city MAY be another.

I can kinda see both sides. Just wanted to point out what seems to have been missed in all of this.

ok wait wait wait then why in the hell do we see vids a storys allt he time about some off duty cop crashin the robbers day?? doesnt matter if they are on duty off in plain cloths uniform if shit goes down there going to be right in the middle of it..

i cant even come close to see why some of you can agree with this.. your going to let your tax money pay for this shit??? i rarly repo cops povs but it seems when i do its denver.. the funny thing is my friend thats cspd tells me they make more then most other police officers in this state.. not sure how true it is but still.. they dont like doing what they have to do for their job get a fucking new one.. last 2 trucks places i worked for i never got paid for washing my truck or fueling it or when it was in the shop.. why should they get their hand held and paid to be dumb ass little bitches???

[Nick_Ninja]

ok wait wait wait then why in the hell <snip>........... why should they get their hand held and paid to be dumb ass little bitches???

:spit:

Because they are? :think:

[#1Townie]

hahaha

[Skinbabe]

I really hope one day you both need a cop and they show up 15 mins too late (because it was shift change and they were getting their gear on)

[LiQuIdAiR=OTB=]

I really hope one day you both need a cop and they show up 15 mins too late (because it was shift change and they were getting their gear on)



That's not very nice. :)

[#1Townie]

I really hope one day you both need a cop and they show up 15 mins too late (because it was shift change and they were getting their gear on)


hahaha and what would i "need" them for?? i have my own guns.. i very much so know how to defend my self.. if im in a wreck its not the cop that im waiting for its the emt.. the only thing i would need them for is to file the report that i just cought a guy trying to get into my house and he is now dead..

please give me a list of reasons that i may need a cop..

[LiQuIdAiR=OTB=]

hahaha and what would i "need" them for?? i have my own guns.. i very much so know how to defend my self.. if im in a wreck its not the cop that im waiting for its the emt.. the only thing i would need them for is to file the report that i just cought a guy trying to get into my house and he is now dead..

please give me a list of reasons that i may need a cop..

1. Redirect traffic when the lights die
2. Help old ladies (possibly your dear grandmother)
3. Stop to help change your tire

......
Kind weak. It's a start..

[Bueller]

Get your cat outta the big tree

[whitebrad]

1. Redirect traffic when the lights die
2. Help old ladies (possibly your dear grandmother)
3. Stop to help change your tire

......
Kind weak. It's a start..


this shit happens?

[T-Dub]

Blah, blah, blah, I don't need cops, blah, blah, blah, I gots me mah own guns, blah, blah, blah.

[#1Townie]

1. Redirect traffic when the lights die
2. Help old ladies (possibly your dear grandmother)
3. Stop to help change your tire

......
Kind weak. It's a start..
1. have you ever seen those guys "redirect" traffic???
2. both grand mothers are dead.. and shouldnt that be the job for boy scouts??
3. i dont need help to change a tire.. worked for a shop for a while and now drive a tow truck for a living.. used to work for the company that has to go out and change the tires on cspd and other city vehicals.. i think i can handle it..


Get your cat outta the big tree
dont own cats. dont like cats..


Blah, blah, blah, I don't need cops, blah, blah, blah, I gots me mah own guns, blah, blah, blah.

no realy at what point in life do you need a cop?? is it when you are getting robbed?? yeah sure but lets face it by the time you are able to call the cops you have been robbed and he is long gone.. no longer "need" them..

at any point that you need a cop by the time you call them needing them is past.. people who depend on others for safty are the ones that need cops.. i dont depend on any one else for my safty...

[D Berns R6]

people who depend on others for safty are the ones that need cops.. i dont depend on any one else for my safty...

cops aren't, at least I'm not, here to help people that can help themselves. I chose this profession because of the above reason. If your stopped on the side of a rode with a flat, sure I'll ask you if your ok. If your speeding, it's your own fault. If you respect me I'll respect you. But i sure hope that everyone that is talking down on cops doesn't need them someday and we don't come on time...

[Bueller]

I for one am not bashing cops just their self rightious entitled attitude, sorta like the "I hope you need a cop and they/we won't be there" BS. You/they are public servants, you don't choose who you can help, your duty is to serve and protect all, whether they like you or not. It's a freaking job not some holy fucking calling, just because someone dresses like a "hero" doesn't make 'em one or I would wear my Superman costume in public.

[derekm]

FTP!

[D Berns R6]

I'm not here to fight so this is my last post on this thread, and for the few that know me on here know that I for one don't have an attitude. I agree with you that we serve all even those that don't want us, given my examples above, but like I said specifically for myself, respect me and I'll respect you.

and for the record, i don't agree with Denver Police's suit.

[Bueller]

FTP!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWxAnjNVBt8

[Bueller]

I'm not here to fight so this is my last post on this thread, and for the few that know me on here know that I for one don't have an attitude. I agree with you that we serve all even those that don't want us, given my examples above, but like I said specifically for myself, respect me and I'll respect you.

and for the record, i don't agree with Denver Police's suit.
Not saying all have the attitude, some do and it reflects on all.

[thatmofo]

That article made my day. I'm going to present the same argument to my boss and then I am going to ask for a clothing allowance also. I expect that I will be posting on here that I am looking for a new job within five minutes of talking with my boss.

[Nick_Ninja]

cops aren't, at least I'm not, here to help people that can help themselves. I chose this profession because of the above reason. If your stopped on the side of a rode with a flat, sure I'll ask you if your ok. If your speeding, it's your own fault. If you respect me I'll respect you. But i sure hope that everyone that is talking down on cops doesn't need them someday and we don't come on time...

And I'm the paramedic. Maybe I'll show up when you take the slug ------- and again maybe not :D

[Skinbabe]

hahaha and what would i "need" them for?? i have my own guns.. i very much so know how to defend my self.. if im in a wreck its not the cop that im waiting for its the emt.. the only thing i would need them for is to file the report that i just cought a guy trying to get into my house and he is now dead..

please give me a list of reasons that i may need a cop..
I had a friend that was a cop. He happened to be the DUI officer. So another cop pulls over a drunk driver, calls the DUI car in. My friend walks up to the car and leans over to talk to the driver. The drivers pulls a gun and shoots my friend 5 times. 4 of the bullets when down his vest since he was leaning over and he was killed. So lets say they didn't pull this guy over for DUI and the guy runs a red light and plows into your car killing you. My friend is still here, and you are not. My point... you may never know the many ways you need a police officer until maybe they are not around.

[TFOGGuys]

...just because someone dresses like a "hero" doesn't make 'em one or I would wear my Superman costume in public.

You don't? :wtf:

:lol:

[dirkterrell]

I hope that you are not being sarcastic in calling them "these heroes" because though you may not like when you get a ticket, that's what most of them truly are.


Actually, I think the term "hero" is tossed around a little too loosely these days. I'm curious why you say that most of them are "heroes"?

Dirk

[Shea]

Actually, I think the term "hero" is tossed around a little too loosely these days. I'm curious why you say that most of them are "heroes"?

Dirk

I concur. "Hero" seems to be used for anyone doing their job these days.

[Devaclis]

Oh, Herro :)
http://bartlebe.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/herro2.jpg

[Bueller]

I had a friend that was a cop. He happened to be the DUI officer. So another cop pulls over a drunk driver, calls the DUI car in. My friend walks up to the car and leans over to talk to the driver. The drivers pulls a gun and shoots my friend 5 times. 4 of the bullets when down his vest since he was leaning over and he was killed. So lets say they didn't pull this guy over for DUI and the guy runs a red light and plows into your car killing you. My friend is still here, and you are not. My point... you may never know the many ways you need a police officer until maybe they are not around.
Unfortunate but part of the job. What about the drunk they missed pulling over while on some stupid traffic stop. Don't play the what if scenero, it's not reality


You don't? :wtf:

:lol:
Not in public

[dirkterrell]

I concur. "Hero" seems to be used for anyone doing their job these days.

These are the kinds of people I consider heroes:

http://www.history.army.mil/moh.html

http://www.cmohs.org/

but I'm curious to see how others decide to bestow that kind of title.

Dirk

[MetaLord 9]

Not in public
proof there is a God.

NOBODY needs to see Bueller in spandex & a cape! :lol:

[dirkterrell]

From the citation for the most recent CMoH awardee, Ross A. McGinnis:


That afternoon his platoon was conducting combat control operations in an effort to reduce and control sectarian violence in the area. While Private McGinnis was manning the M2 .50-caliber Machine Gun, a fragmentation grenade thrown by an insurgent fell through the gunner's hatch into the vehicle. Reacting quickly, he yelled "grenade," allowing all four members of his crew to prepare for the grenade's blast. Then, rather than leaping from the gunner's hatch to safety, Private McGinnis made the courageous decision to protect his crew. In a selfless act of bravery, in which he was mortally wounded, Private McGinnis covered the live grenade, pinning it between his body and the vehicle and absorbing most of the explosion. Private McGinnis' gallant action directly saved four men from certain serious injury or death. Private First Class McGinnis' extraordinary heroism and selflessness at the cost of his own life, above and beyond the call of duty, are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.

That is the kind of person for which I reserve the use of the term "hero".

Dirk

[64BonnieLass]

:)

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/Terri_Romaneschi/Misc/heroes_2.jpg

[Zanos]

Anyone want some milk and cookies?
Just got me some Oreo's...

[whitebrad]

mmmmm... oreos and milk... now i'm s'fckin hungry...

dood, a cop can write WAY more tickets, saving the world from way more cataclysmic what-ifs than one guy can by jumping on grenades...

[Wintermute]

I think our badged friends here are trying to make the point that not every cop spends all their time sitting under an overpass munching donuts or looking for sport bikers to pull over. To lump millions of cops under the blanket statements some of your operate under is ignorant. Just as dumb as cagers that lump all us under the "squid" category.

As for their job being like any other, cops, like military, have to deal with the fact that their life can be lost at any time in the line of duty. Any person they're interacting with could be that lunatic with a gun, demonstrated above.

[MetaLord 9]

I think our badged friends here are trying to make the point that not every cop spends all their time sitting under an overpass munching donuts or looking for sport bikers to pull over. To lump millions of cops under the blanket statements some of your operate under is ignorant. Just as dumb as cagers that lump all us under the "squid" category.

As for their job being like any other, cops, like military, have to deal with the fact that their life can be lost at any time in the line of duty. Any person they're interacting with could be that lunatic with a gun, demonstrated above.
+1 well said!

[dirkterrell]

I think our badged friends here are trying to make the point that not every cop spends all their time sitting under an overpass munching donuts or looking for sport bikers to pull over. To lump millions of cops under the blanket statements some of your operate under is ignorant. Just as dumb as cagers that lump all us under the "squid" category.


Agreed.



As for their job being like any other, cops, like military, have to deal with the fact that their life can be lost at any time in the line of duty.

That is true of many jobs.

Dirk

[Mental]

Other than my salaried crack which was mercifully ignored, I will say the presence of Polic serves a very real need weather you notice or not. Your guns my deal with the robber once he has gotten in the place, but the actual presecnce of a real police force does serve society by their mere existance. I have lived in places where there is no law enforcement. Sure, they have guns, but there is no presence of law and order. You really can't imagine the crime. I could tell you about it, but until you experience a reality that anything and everything unprotected will simply be taken, you just won't get it. No rape is prosecuted, ever, becuase the view is that it wasn't protected, and was there to be taken. And you can throw crime stats up here all you want, but having cops simply keeps society in check becuase there are consequences to breaking the law, and law enforcement represent the first stage of that process.

Plenty of peaple say we can live without police. You might make it without personal interaction, but I have seen the other side, no we cannot exist without police.

[whitebrad]

Plenty of peaple say we can live without police. You might make it without personal interaction, but I have seen the other side, no we cannot exist without police.

okay, we cannot exist in society without police, just as a society cannot exist without law. granted.

what happens when the law stops serving its citizens? as mentioned before, the police do a job. every person in society is doing a job. when the police signed up for that job, they were made evident the demands OF that job. everyone else who gets a fuckin job can be fired without incident. why a fuckin act of congress to fire a policeman? you cannot perform the necessary functions to do the job? peace... go get a flashlight and walk your new beat.

you don't like the duties of your job? get the fuck on, you aren't fucking special...

Listen up, maggots. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.

by taking the job with those requirements in mind, you are entering into a contract with that employer. as long as that contract does not violate labor laws, it is binding up to the time the employer ends that contract. what the fuck is the confusion? they want to get paid another extra for their fucking simple-ass job. they are not all fuckin swat team, and they are not all fuckin heroes. some of them are fuckin meter maids and paper pushers sucking the government teat.

all that being said, why the fuck are they special? cuz they are an "authority" figure?

[Skinbabe]

Wow, the ignorance never ceases to amaze me.

[Shea]

Wow, the ignorance never ceases to amaze me.

Just because someone holds a different opinion then you does not make them ignorant.

[MetaLord 9]

But being ignorant does! :D






(just mess'n with ya Shea! )

[Skinbabe]

Its the way he is stating his case that is ignorant, and I wasn't just refering to him there are a lot of posts in this thread that are just flat out ignorant, small minded and immature

[Shea]

But being ignorant does! :D


I am so intolerant of your intolerance! :)

[Shea]

Its the way he is stating his case that is ignorant, and I wasn't just refering to him there are a lot of posts in this thread that are just flat out ignorant, small minded and immature

Your judgment I guess. I could very well say that your position is fallacious but that accomplishes just about as much.

[whitebrad]

Your judgment I guess. I could very well say that your position is fallacious but that accomplishes just about as much.

it was the WAY i stated it that makes me ignorant...

funny thing about ignorance... WELL nevermind...

[#1Townie]

look im not dumb enough to think this world would work with out cops im just sayn i dont need one.. the comment was made to me that she hopes i never need one and hes 15 minuts late or what ever.. i said i dont need a cop.. i learned at a young age that there is only person that can keep you safe and that is your self.. thats it.. i do not depend on others for my safty.. its as simple as that..

[The Black Knight]

Dude. Cliff Notes. srsly.

HAHA!! there are some things that I just cannot use a few words to explain. This being one of them. Hey at least I didn't hit the 10000 word limit. I thought I got everything I wanted to say in a nice compact trimmed down, yet somewhat extended version of one of my long posts.

[willb003]

Listen up, maggots. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.


Thats not what my mommy told me when I was young.:king:

[#1Townie]

Wow, the ignorance never ceases to amaze me.


Its the way he is stating his case that is ignorant, and I wasn't just refering to him there are a lot of posts in this thread that are just flat out ignorant, small minded and immature



:)

let me know how that 911 works for you as your being mugged and stripped of your phone..

[LiQuIdAiR=OTB=]

:)

let me know how that 911 works for you as your being mugged and stripped of your phone..


Not to be gross. But, stripped? hmm... Well, i guess that's wrong....

[whitebrad]

Thats not what my mommy told me when I was young.:king:

My mommy tol me that same shit... lyin bitch...

no, that's actually from fight club, just as an aside, ya know...

[LiQuIdAiR=OTB=]

Thats not what my mommy told me when I was young.:king:


I believe that is a quote from a movie. Can't remember which one. I just thought I would point that out so I wouldn't be offended.

[LiQuIdAiR=OTB=]

To be fair towards SkinBabe, congrats on staying your ground. Few of us if any can relate to the situation you mentioned (about your friend that was shot). I would say sorry for that, but it wouldn't mean anything. I don't mean that in a bad way.

Keep it up!

[MetaLord 9]

fallacious


stripped... Well, i guess that's wrong....

^^ CORRECT direction for this thread!


it was the WAY i stated it that makes me ignorant...

funny thing about ignorance... WELL nevermind...
FAIL direction for this thread.

[whitebrad]

^^ CORRECT direction for this thread!


FAIL direction for this thread.

which is why i dropped it, it was getting all serious and shit!

now where's the boobies?

[Mental]

look im not dumb enough to think this world would work with out cops im just sayn i dont need one.. the comment was made to me that she hopes i never need one and hes 15 minuts late or what ever.. i said i dont need a cop.. i learned at a young age that there is only person that can keep you safe and that is your self.. thats it.. i do not depend on others for my safty.. its as simple as that..

I get the individual self reliance, and to be honest the world needs more of that, but your view is limited to just an emeregency situation. You do need a cop. The fact you go to work every day and are a productive tax paying citizen earns you a reasonable expectation of security. Certianly, you lock up your house, and your car. But these are only deterents measures. If someone wants your stuff, you can have 10 guns and it won't matter, becuase you are at work. The presence of a police force is another essemtial layer of deterence becuase it is the 1st step in a legal system that governs a society. Most folks know not to take stuff, but there is a percentage that doesn't take things becuase there is an understanding that police will apprehend them, and then they enter into the legal system for punishment (ideally they go to jail, but a lot of times...)

Apply this reasoning to most areas that are goverened by law. Your commute is safer becuase a good percentage of peaple obey they law, becuase of the existance (if not presence of police).

If you can accept this, it also has an application to your personal worth. My house here is worth what it is worth due to numerous factors, but among them is also is a low crime rate.

I can see both sides of the pay to dress aurgument, but the reaction of FTP is just too typical and not intelligent. You aren't taking this position, but a lot are.

The reality is the timing is piss poor. Every single state federal and local funded entity is being bled dry for funding, and they pick now for this. It socially irresponsible in an era of shrinking budgets.

What more, and someone alluded to it, is they are modeling this after the LAPD. Which, despite their training, is actually one of the worst police agencies in the US. Not through a fault of their own, but becuase they city council in LA ill not fund them. They have fewer officers per capita than any agency in the country. Becuase the population of LA is not interested in law enforcement, they are interested in crime containment. As long as the nasty stuff stays in the poor neighborhoods, they don't care. A better model would be the NYPD, which spent the 80's becoming one of the most effective organizations in the US.

[#1Townie]

cops aren't, at least I'm not, here to help people that can help themselves. I chose this profession because of the above reason. If your stopped on the side of a rode with a flat, sure I'll ask you if your ok. If your speeding, it's your own fault. If you respect me I'll respect you. But i sure hope that everyone that is talking down on cops doesn't need them someday and we don't come on time...
and if i turned you in for this how much trouble would you be in for abusing your power?? im not going to but still..




I get the individual self reliance, and to be honest the world needs more of that, but your view is limited to just an emeregency situation. You do need a cop. The fact you go to work every day and are a productive tax paying citizen earns you a reasonable expectation of security. Certianly, you lock up your house, and your car. But these are only deterents measures. If someone wants your stuff, you can have 10 guns and it won't matter, becuase you are at work. The presence of a police force is another essemtial layer of deterence becuase it is the 1st step in a legal system that governs a society. Most folks know not to take stuff, but there is a percentage that doesn't take things becuase there is an understanding that police will apprehend them, and then they enter into the legal system for punishment (ideally they go to jail, but a lot of times...)

Apply this reasoning to most areas that are goverened by law. Your commute is safer becuase a good percentage of peaple obey they law, becuase of the existance (if not presence of police).

If you can accept this, it also has an application to your personal worth. My house here is worth what it is worth due to numerous factors, but among them is also is a low crime rate.

I can see both sides of the pay to dress aurgument, but the reaction of FTP is just too typical and not intelligent. You aren't taking this position, but a lot are.

The reality is the timing is piss poor. Every single state federal and local funded entity is being bled dry for funding, and they pick now for this. It socially irresponsible in an era of shrinking budgets.

What more, and someone alluded to it, is they are modeling this after the LAPD. Which, despite their training, is actually one of the worst police agencies in the US. Not through a fault of their own, but becuase they city council in LA ill not fund them. They have fewer officers per capita than any agency in the country. Becuase the population of LA is not interested in law enforcement, they are interested in crime containment. As long as the nasty stuff stays in the poor neighborhoods, they don't care. A better model would be the NYPD, which spent the 80's becoming one of the most effective organizations in the US.

and again i directly do not need a cop for that.. if this world was total anarchy im not dumb enough to say id be the king pin or somthing.. id be dead im sure.. im not a sheep... im not going out of my way to find trouble any more but trust me if it comes my way odds are is the last thing you see from will be a smile... i know i know internet tough guy yeah yeah..

[D Berns R6]

and if i turned you in for this how much trouble would you be in for abusing your power?? im not going to but still..


You misread my statement so no abusing power here. I wasn't saying that I would intentionally come late. My point was being you have a negative attitude toward law enforcement, because you specially don't need them, and in the event that you do need a cop (this is where Karma comes into play) for some reason they are late.

[Sleev]

It takes a long time to comb those moustaches just right

[dirkterrell]

As for their job being like any other, cops, like military, have to deal with the fact that their life can be lost at any time in the line of duty. Any person they're interacting with could be that lunatic with a gun, demonstrated above.

Ok, I did a little research on the Bureau of Labor Statistics web site to see how dangerous various jobs were in terms of fatality rates based on hours worked. Here is the source of the data for 2007:

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshnotice10.htm

So, after a little extracting and a script to pull the numbers out of the PDF, here are some of the fatality rates. These numbers represent


The rate represents the number of fatal occupational injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers and were calculated as:
(N/EH) x 200,000,000 where
N = number of fatal injuries
EH = total hours worked by all employees during the calendar year
200,000,000 = base for 100,000 equivalent full-time workers (working 40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year)

Fishing 110
Logging 91
Pilots and flight engineers 71
Steel workers 48
Farmers 36
Roofers 33
Power line workers 28
Truck transportation 26
Coal mining 25
Refuse and recyclable material collectors 24
Construction laborers 21

and then police and sheriff patrol officers come in at 20, about the same as taxi drivers. Newspaper publishers come in at about 10, the same as security guards and gaming surveillance officers.

Dirk

[Shea]

Can we get a graph associated with this Dirk? :p

[Nick_Ninja]

So Deadliest Catch :up: needs to be programmed into my remote favorites waaaaaaaaaay before COPS :down:





Well, I already knew that. Thanks Dirk! :D

[dirkterrell]

Can we get a graph associated with this Dirk? :p

http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/dangerous_jobs.gif

Dirk

[Shea]

lol, you're awesome :)

[Wintermute]

Yeah, those are all dangerous jobs. I grew up on a large family farm, and we had more than a few trips to the emergency room. No deaths, thank God, just your run-of-mill auger maimings and large-animal maulings.

But those deaths in those jobs are accidental and sadly, usually avoidable. The fisherman doesn't notice that the rope on the crab cage is wrapped around his leg before he drops it into the ocean, or the farmer that goes into a manure pit when he knows that the gas in there can suffocate you.

It was no accident that the lunatic shot and killed Skinbabe's friend. Just like it's no accident when Taliban assholes blow up our soldiers with IEDs. If your job includes people trying to actively kill you, it's no regular job.

[Mental]

So Deadliest Catch :up: needs to be programmed into my remote favorites waaaaaaaaaay before COPS :down:





Well, I already knew that. Thanks Dirk! :D

Yeah but there are no shirtless drunk rednecks being hauled out of a trailer on Deadliest Catch

[Wintermute]

Run Ronnie Run (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA6Z0LGqkkA)

The guy Ronnie has his arm around at 2:25 is Maynard from Tool.

[dirkterrell]

It was no accident that the lunatic shot and killed Skinbabe's friend. Just like it's no accident when Taliban assholes blow up our soldiers with IEDs. If your job includes people trying to actively kill you, it's no regular job.

I don' really see the difference in terms of valor. If you go to work everyday knowing that there is a non-negligible chance that you'll be killed, I don't see that it matters whether it's because of an accident or a deliberate action. I respect people who choose to do these jobs but I don't necessarily consider them "heroes".

Dirk

[#1Townie]

You misread my statement so no abusing power here. I wasn't saying that I would intentionally come late. My point was being you have a negative attitude toward law enforcement, because you specially don't need them, and in the event that you do need a cop (this is where Karma comes into play) for some reason they are late.


cops aren't, at least I'm not, here to help people that can help themselves. I chose this profession because of the above reason. If your stopped on the side of a rode with a flat, sure I'll ask you if your ok. If your speeding, it's your own fault. If you respect me I'll respect you. But i sure hope that everyone that is talking down on cops doesn't need them someday and we don't come on time...

i like how you bring up karma while wishing harm on others.. wow.. just wow..

[64BonnieLass]

Townie...STOP. I know Dingle and he is one heck of a nice guy.

He isn't saying anything of the kind. He just isn't. He's good people and I know him personally. Please don't go down this road. Please. He really is a good person, with a good heart, a good mind, and nothing but good intentions. Please.

[willb003]

Sweet, so like my job is gonna be 3rd as far as dangerous.

[MrMorb]

From the citation for the most recent CMoH awardee, Ross A. McGinnis:



That is the kind of person for which I reserve the use of the term "hero".

Dirk

+1

[64BonnieLass]

Ya know what???? This thread has been soooo off topic on so many occasions, that I feel the need to say this:

I applaud the cops that come on this board that admit who they are. I applaud their efforts in their posts. I think they have added a great deal of foresight to all of us....if you are prone to listening.

They give their opinion from their side of the fence. And I respect that. And I even saw a thread where one, got a ride going in the Springs.

They are people, real people, who enjoy the ride just like the rest of us.

I respect most people on this forum...if I know you...but I think there is good and bad in EVERY single industry known to Americans.

I would hope and pray, that the lot of you, can choose good people from bad people, in terms of character. I would also hope that as in so many occasions on this board, you are willing to meet people before you judge them, regardless of occupation.

[Nick_Ninja]

TOWNIE ---- UR N ASS.


U don't ride and your vacuum don't crank the COCK. :321:

[Shea]

:pointlaugh:

[64BonnieLass]

Hysterical. hahahaha. Jeff was having a blast about 1am. Although, what does take n suck mean? I don't get that part. Noob! hahahahaha, Jeff cracks me up. :guinness::lol:

[#1Townie]

look i never said the guy was bad.. comming in here and telling me what i need in my life and what i dont then calling me ignorant and wishing harm upon me and others that dont feel they need cops in their lives is getting old..

none of you have any idea who i am or what life i have ever lived.. i will never tell you people but do trust me when i say i dont need a cop.. does this world need a police force?? yes i agree it does.. just not me.. stop jumping my shit.. stop calling me names.. i have done nothing like that with this thread.. i made one comment back to a person that said i hope when you need a cop they are late.. i responded to that with i dont need one.. i fucking dont.. i know what to look for in life and who to stay away from.. im sorry some of you walk around scared but i dont.. i have been to the worst parts of every town in this sate and im not scared.. sorry im just not..

so i get harm wished upon me.. i get called names.. i get jumped on and its me that needs to stop??

im sorry super cop cant take a step back and think some people dont ever use cops in their lives.. that maybe people would rather handle the shit with out using cops.. it is easer to handle your own affairs with out calling cops.. i understand when a party is going on next door you guys think it is better to call the cops then to ask your neighbor to turn it down a bit.. thats cool.. im not telling any one to change anything.. im just sick of being told i need to be a bitch and need a cop in my life to survive... its not me.. it wont ever be me..

[Zach929rr]

Just out of pure curiosity, how old are you Townie?

[whitebrad]

look i never said the guy was bad.. comming in here and telling me what i need in my life and what i dont then calling me ignorant and wishing harm upon me and others that dont feel they need cops in their lives is getting old..

none of you have any idea who i am or what life i have ever lived.. i will never tell you people but do trust me when i say i dont need a cop.. does this world need a police force?? yes i agree it does.. just not me.. stop jumping my shit.. stop calling me names.. i have done nothing like that with this thread.. i made one comment back to a person that said i hope when you need a cop they are late.. i responded to that with i dont need one.. i fucking dont.. i know what to look for in life and who to stay away from.. im sorry some of you walk around scared but i dont.. i have been to the worst parts of every town in this sate and im not scared.. sorry im just not..

so i get harm wished upon me.. i get called names.. i get jumped on and its me that needs to stop??

im sorry super cop cant take a step back and think some people dont ever use cops in their lives.. that maybe people would rather handle the shit with out using cops.. it is easer to handle your own affairs with out calling cops.. i understand when a party is going on next door you guys think it is better to call the cops then to ask your neighbor to turn it down a bit.. thats cool.. im not telling any one to change anything.. im just sick of being told i need to be a bitch and need a cop in my life to survive... its not me.. it wont ever be me..



+1... of course maybe i was brought up differently...

look, rudenesss is subjectgive... people have different buttons.

i don't call cops. it's just not done in my household. i don't trust them and i don't think that they are trustworthy.

my opinion. what good is having freedom if we all have to have the same opinion? some of us grew up in a different world than everyone else. Townie is right in my book, though his words are a little overboard and he keeps driving his point home... he doesn't want the cops involved in his life! i get it, i feel the same way. when confronted by people calling us ignorant for how we believe, well, some get mad.

why do the cops get all mad when we refuse their help? their help has a different connotation to a lot of us in this world...

if townie needs to stop then so do a lot of people... just simply true

[R1NORI]

I can think of plenty of people who would love to take their jobs,and be happy to "change" for free.

And would make better cops than half of them out there.

Should be just happy to have a job right now!

[#1Townie]

Just out of pure curiosity, how old are you Townie?

27

[Slo]

What a bunch of idiots. Not just myself, but for anyone else out there, any/every job has some sort of dress code. These guys want to get paid for putting on a belt that has some of their necessities along with other protective gear?

Hell, why don't we just raise our taxes so we can pay them for their gym/pt time, and their friggin hygeine time???

[Mel]

You know what, I'm gonna stand up to the man from now on...if they aren't gonna pay me to get dressed in the mornings, I'm just gonna stop doing it.

[Shea]

You know what, I'm gonna stand up to the man from now on...if they aren't gonna pay me to get dressed in the mornings, I'm just gonna stop doing it.


Wait, wait...I don't have to spend money AND you're naked?!?! Help me out here, I'm failing to see the downside...

[D Berns R6]

nobody is probably interested in this, but go talk to a denver officer who is on the law suit and get there side of the story...there's a lot more that the media doesn't go into, specifically the police officer side. Sure the lawsuit is about officers getting dressed but that's not why some officers support it. And if I remember correctly, Denver PD didn't initiate the lawsuit, they were contacted by a law firm who stated that Denver has all the things in place to win a suit like the other police departments who have won the same suit.

BTW I still don't support it.

[Raptor]

nobody is probably interested in this, but go talk to a denver officer who is on the law suit and get there side of the story...there's a lot more that the media doesn't go into, specifically the police officer side. Sure the lawsuit is about officers getting dressed but that's not why some officers support it. And if I remember correctly, Denver PD didn't initiate the lawsuit, they were contacted by a law firm who stated that Denver has all the things in place to win a suit like the other police departments who have won the same suit.

BTW I still don't support it.

Yeah, you pretty much have to take some consideration for media spin. Still, anytime I've ever had issues with an employer, fair or unfair, my only options were to either callous up or find another job. Having been salaried for the last 5 years, there were more than a few times that my check and my time sheet conflicted heavily. I never thought of rallying my coworkers and suing the company. I just kind of thought that it was my right to accept it as much as it was my right to leave.

[dirkterrell]

nobody is probably interested in this, but go talk to a denver officer who is on the law suit and get there side of the story...there's a lot more that the media doesn't go into, specifically the police officer side.


Well, it's not so easy for me to chase down a DPD officer for a chat seeing as I live in Boulder. :) Can you give us some details?



Sure the lawsuit is about officers getting dressed but that's not why some officers support it. And if I remember correctly, Denver PD didn't initiate the lawsuit, they were contacted by a law firm who stated that Denver has all the things in place to win a suit like the other police departments who have won the same suit.


Well, if that's true, my opinion of DPD management has dropped even further.

Dirk

[Raptor]

Well, if that's true, my opinion of DPD management has dropped even further.

Dirk

I think that Denver and Aurora PD are in a rapid cenotic race to bottom one another in management quality.

[#1Townie]

Yeah, you pretty much have to take some consideration for media spin. Still, anytime I've ever had issues with an employer, fair or unfair, my only options were to either callous up or find another job. Having been salaried for the last 5 years, there were more than a few times that my check and my time sheet conflicted heavily. I never thought of rallying my coworkers and suing the company. I just kind of thought that it was my right to accept it as much as it was my right to leave.

+99999999999999999999999999999999999999

[#1Townie]

anyone know whos money is paying for this lawsuit???