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View Full Version : Super street bike class next year in the MRA



MRA 32
Tue Jul 14th, 2009, 10:53 PM
This has been bouncing around in the MRA forums and I am supporting the idea too. Here is the what I propose: Offer two or three simulated races on Saturday afternoons after the completion of endurance races. The class structure could be based on bike size or rider skill levels and would likely be a timed like endurance for example. The rider requirements would be; current AMA member, completion of MRA race school, current MRA license (these are all insurance requirements to be on the track at a MRA event to my knowledge and there may be a few other requirements not listed). Bike requirements; no antifreeze (water or waterwetter allowed), engine case guards required, lenses or glass taped off, and steering dampener. Gear requirements; helmet (latest snell rating), back protector, one or two piece leathers (two piece must zip completely together), gloves, and boots. Cost of a class would be somewhere between $50-$100. As of now the idea doesn't include scoring each class so no trophies, points, contengency, or championships. And the MRA rulebook would be followed in terms of racer conduct and any other issues!!!!

What is the point of this suggestion? I have friends that have one bike and want to get on the track, be involved with the club, but don't want to give up their ability to ride their streetbike on the street. These guys/gals also don't have the budget to race full tilt. All of my friends are in favor of this proposal and I would like to see them get involved. I would also like to see more people get involved too.

The important thing now is to hear from the members of the CSC about this idea! The CSC is the riders that would be supporting such a class.

Remember this is just an idea right now, but that is where change starts is an idea.

Thanks for any suggestions you might have or comments.

Jeff

cromer611
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:08 AM
tape up the hole/opening in the belly pan and i will support it

whitebrad
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 02:12 AM
I would LOVE to, and then maybe i wouldn't have to tell my wife i was really racing...

let me know!!! sounds like a way to get a feel for it and stuff without really having to spend the whole million!

dragos13
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 06:42 AM
I totally support the idea of such a class however I would not personally participate in it. I think its a great way to give street riders a taste of racing. If you can experience it then that might be persuasion to go all out and either get a race bike or fully prep the street bike.

Good work Jeff!!!

Bueller
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 06:49 AM
Grasping at straws. IMO

rforsythe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 07:06 AM
People that've actually raced won't run it obviously, but other clubs have had success with this model to bring in new folks. FYI my posts on MRA forum also included at least a minimum amount of safety wire. Not sure if taping belly pans would work as some street plastics just don't work that way, but with wired drains, filters, etc I think the chances of a big oil-down are small. We certainly don't get any higher incidence of that at Chicane days or even R2SL with street bodywork as long as bikes are prepped and tech'd each day.

Also I disagree on the simulated part. Ok no championship, but it's a race, and people would be paying for one. Score it, give same-day certificates for podium finishers or whatever, but if you want people to get drawn in and hopefully bite the bullet on the real racing, then you need to make it like a real race.

I'm also glad to see multiple people are contemplating the concept and what it would take. And a few that are like "man that's dumb" which is fine, but I think the idea has merit. Since it doesn't actually cost the MRA anything except some time in the schedule and some rulebook mods to account for the new class I don't see why it shouldn't be tried, despite some folks freaking out at the idea of a street guy going out on their precious track (even though that is exactly what happens on open lapping days, along with cars, and nobody's losing their minds about that one).

Bottom line, the class wouldn't be for experienced racers to enter or even care much about - we have our own stuff. It's for newbies who just want to see what it's all about without dropping thousands of dollars, and in that light I think it's worth doing.

Bueller
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 07:29 AM
You might get people to show up for one time but I think the novelty will wear off quick. Of course if you charge $300+ (MRA School + lic., AMA and entry) for a mock race then the street riders will learn one thing about racing for sure, it hella expensive! :lol:

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 07:34 AM
Might bring more women who ride, as well.:)

Snowman
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 07:54 AM
As far as the “Oil Slick” complaint that seems to keep coming up whenever “Street Bikes on a Race Track” is mentioned, I don’t think this is as big as a problem as racers are making this out to be.

How many times has a street bike oiled a track vs. how many times a race bike has? Does anyone have this statistic?

I have seen/heard this happening just as often from race bikes as I have from street bikes. In fact a full on race bike dumped its load all the way down the back straight and into turn 4 at HPR on Monday. Its pan did stop this from happening, and it only took them 20mins to clean it up.

As long as street bikes are teched properly (ie the way Chicane Days not how HPR Lapping Days.) I don’t see this as real an issue.

Matrix
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 08:04 AM
I agree with the novality statement above. The reason I say that is because if I have gone to the trouble to go to the race class, get AMA and MRA memberships paid up, bought case covers, maybe some saftey wiring then why would I not race? I could see this being a one time shot for potential racers and if I did half way decent I would jump right to real the thing (which maybe is the goal here).

I can't see someone putting that much into it for a simulated race more then once but thats just my opinion.

Bueller
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 08:49 AM
Might bring more women who ride, as well.:)
Will you?

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 08:50 AM
As far as the “Oil Slick” complaint that seems to keep coming up whenever “Street Bikes on a Race Track” is mentioned, I don’t think this is as big as a problem as racers are making this out to be.

How many times has a street bike oiled a track vs. how many times a race bike has? Does anyone have this statistic?

I have seen/heard this happening just as often from race bikes as I have from street bikes. In fact a full on race bike dumped its load all the way down the back straight and into turn 4 at HPR on Monday. Its pan did stop this from happening, and it only took them 20mins to clean it up.

As long as street bikes are teched properly (ie the way Chicane Days not how HPR Lapping Days.) I don’t see this as real an issue.


Are you talking about oil from blowing up your motor or from crashing and damaging a case cover?

If your statement is about blowing up you are right. Not very often do sportbikes blow up and oil the track. Belly pans do help somewhat when this happens though.

If you are talking about case covers not being needed, i would disagree.
Mike

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 08:55 AM
Will you?

It's a possibility. I've always said that I can't do the race thing because of costs, but getting a taste like this is what I want to take to my grave. I know my motives are a whole lot different, but well...yeah, I would.

Bueller
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 08:56 AM
It's a possibility. I've always said that I can't do the race thing because of costs, but getting a taste like this is what I want to take to my grave. I know my motives are a whole lot different, but well...yeah, I would.
The whole purpose of this is to give you a taste of Heroin.

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 08:57 AM
The whole purpose of this is to give you a taste of Heroin.

LOL...well put.

d2deluxe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:00 AM
I think this class will be a good way for street riders to trash there nice OEM fairings but to each their own.

asp_125
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:03 AM
From my point of view, if I wanted the race experience I would just make the commitment and race; none of this pretend racing stuff. If I go to the trouble of getting a license, prepping the bike, the support vehicle and trailer etc. it's not a stretch to actually race. If I just wanted track time, Chicane has a great program for that already.

You go through the PITA process of taping up lights, etc each weekend and pretty soon you realize the value of having a race bike that you don't have to convert back and forth. So while the idea is good, in the long run I see participants either trying it once and dropping out, or moving up to the real MRA classes. So long term survival of such a class is doubtful.

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:05 AM
Bike Bandit is where I shop. My fairings are quarter fairings. I call it the "bikini top". And, one side of my bike has a rash that goes the full length already anyways. I would more than likely and this goes out to any other street rider who would consider this...but, I would put away some cash into my savings that I've ear-marked for the off-chance that I trash my bike.

Oh, but I'm not supposed to crash anymore anyway...so there you have it. ;-)

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:08 AM
I agree with the novality statement above. The reason I say that is because if I have gone to the trouble to go to the race class, get AMA and MRA memberships paid up, bought case covers, maybe some saftey wiring then why would I not race? I could see this being a one time shot for potential racers and if I did half way decent I would jump right to real the thing (which maybe is the goal here).

I can't see someone putting that much into it for a simulated race more then once but thats just my opinion.
:imwithstupid: I don't think that people are going to go through the extra effort to race a streetbike endurance race. If you are investing that much time and money, you would already be racing (or in the process).

If you actually want street riders to race, the requirments would need to be similar to a trackday with maybe a one day license fee for the MRA. Then get a rider rep to hit the very basics so that everyone is on the same page.

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:10 AM
Alot of track day riders become racers after they crash their street bike on the track. Its usually cheaper to make it a race bike then to make it a minty street bike again.

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:20 AM
It must be because of my age. I don't see investing all that money to actually race at this stage of my life. That, and I don't have a whole lot to invest anyway...oh and I have to figure out how I'm going to get my retirement back, etc. But...it's the idea of the "simulation". I've done a couple of track days. I've ridden at IMI...and as a side note: One time, there were about 20 some odd bikes out on that track and I was the only woman...the amount of testosterone I was feeling as I leaned into corners was freaky. I ended up exiting the track only after about 4 laps.

Anyhoo, I digress. What I want (personally speaking) is a taste, even if it does not mean I actually do the full-blown racing later on. Hell, I invested in leathers that I've worn only for those track days and a few times at IMI. It was a good investment...to me. No one has to agree with me. This is a completely selfish thing I would do anyway.

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:27 AM
The thing that is hard for me, is that upfront costs. I even have a race prepped bike, but to spend:
AMA membership $40
MRA Membership $150
MRA School $300
One Endurance Race $50-100
= $550-600

It's kind of steep. And that's not including any additions to a bike (case covers, steering damper if you don't have them). And I don't even know about the insurance that one would need. How much would that run? While I think the MRA does need a boost, and I am happy to help if I can, getting someone to drop $600 for 30 min of fun (with no scoring or recognition) doesn't really seem worth it to me.

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:34 AM
Are rules set in stone? Would a change to adding recognition be absolutely out of the question?

As far as spending that kind of money is concerned. You would spend it anyway, racing or simulating. My rationale would be like anyone else who decides to do something like this...skydiving, flying a hang-glider once or twice, and other stuff, just to get a "feel". To me, it's like spending my vacation money creating a lasting memory.

Besides, I live in Colorado...every weekend is a mini-vacation as far as I'm concerned. I would not be losing out on anything.

Edit: If someone else is considering the transition to racing, but just is not sure about it and yet, wants to know what it's like, then this might be the answer. I don't know about the rationale of adding this race class, but after reading some of what's going on, I think I understand. Track days are also good and Chicane does a great job of adding a level of track time for people who are wanting the experience and wanting to make a decision between just doing track days, or actually racing. I'm all for choices. In today's economy though, choices are tougher to fund, I guess.

Bueller
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:49 AM
Space Camp....ish :lol:

asp_125
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 10:12 AM
Given the current MRA participation problems, why create yet another undersubscribed class?

BigE
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 10:34 AM
As someone who went through the MRA school and had a race bike (an old one but a race bike) and then ended not being able to afford to actually go to races :roll: um, as others have said the price tag is steep for what you get.
If I wanted to this class, for what it would cost to prep my bike ...well, it'd be cheaper to buy an old track bike. Cathy, this could also be the case for you. This is because case covers and bellypans for naked or half-faired bikes are hard to come by and cost a decent chunk of change (iirc, the belly pan for my Triumph is $300-400 plus it need modified to close it in, case covers are non-existent). Add in getting a universal steering damper then making it fit, etc. it just costs too much.
IMHO, if the MRA wants a "Taste of racing" class, let the prep requirements match a good track day school, give a basic "school" included in the race cost, which should be one of the cheaper classes, and have a one-day membership.
Dividing skill level would be of greater concern than bike displacement or type of bike because you'd get some fast guys freaking out the "first-timer/ never-evers".

dirkterrell
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 10:35 AM
Given the current MRA participation problems, why create yet another undersubscribed class?

Well, the idea is that it wouldn't be undersubscribed and might draw people into racing for real. I'm still on the fence about it. The goal is to keep the cost down, but case guards would be a must IMO. Inexperienced and full of adrenaline, people are going to to down. Oil on the track ruins it for everyone. Fortunately in the case that Randall mentioned at the Pridmore school, it wasn't too bad requiring only a small adjustment to the line.

My feeling is that if $600 seems like a lot of startup money to spend, then racing probably isn't for you. Once the bike is set up, it's not too bad, but it ain't cheap. Once you experience a race, though, you'll see that it is at a completely different level from a track day in terms of intensity and thrill, hence Bueller's heroin reference.

Dirk

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 10:42 AM
Cathy, this could also be the case for you. This is because case covers and bellypans for naked or half-faired bikes are hard to come by and cost a decent chunk of change (iirc, the belly pan for my Triumph is $300-400 plus it need modified to close it in, case covers are non-existent). Add in getting a universal steering damper then making it fit, etc. it just costs too much.

IMHO, if the MRA wants a "Taste of racing" class, let the prep requirements match a good track day school, give a basic "school" included in the race cost, which should be one of the cheaper classes, and have a one-day membership.

Dividing skill level would be of greater concern than bike displacement or type of bike because you'd get some fast guys freaking out the "first-timer/ never-evers".

This is the other side I needed to hear. I can get a "wild hair", but also need to hear the negatives, before making a decision.




My feeling is that if $600 seems like a lot of startup money to spend, then racing probably isn't for you. Once the bike is set up, it's not too bad, but it ain't cheap. Once you experience a race, though, you'll see that it is at a completely different level from a track day in terms of intensity and thrill, hence Bueller's heroin reference.

Dirk

This is what I was talking about, as well. You get a certain "feel" at the various levels...riding at IMI is not like a track day, and a track day is not like a simulated race...and a simulated race...and so on.

I think if I investigated further into what it would cost...I might nix the idea altogether. Something like this does take a lot of weighing of options for sure.

Sully
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 10:48 AM
My feeling is that if $600 seems like a lot of startup money to spend, then racing probably isn't for you. Once the bike is set up, it's not too bad, but it ain't cheap. Once you experience a race, though, you'll see that it is at a completely different level from a track day in terms of intensity and thrill, hence Bueller's heroin reference.

Dirk

:imwithstupid: $600 is an understatement for start up ! :shocked:

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 10:51 AM
What is the $600 for? Sean had a break-down of costs. If you are talking about adding a track-ready race bike, then yes the cost goes up, but this is for a street bike class.

So what does the "street bike class" include? Tires? Tire warmers? And all the same stuff as if you were racing?

More info please...

Tipys
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 11:01 AM
The thing that is hard for me, is that upfront costs. I even have a race prepped bike, but to spend:
AMA membership $40
MRA Membership $150
MRA School $300
One Endurance Race $50-100
= $550-600

It's kind of steep. And that's not including any additions to a bike (case covers, steering damper if you don't have them). And I don't even know about the insurance that one would need. How much would that run? While I think the MRA does need a boost, and I am happy to help if I can, getting someone to drop $600 for 30 min of fun (with no scoring or recognition) doesn't really seem worth it to me.


I would disagree Sean you already have a race bike. Now someone who is trying to get into racing but dont know if they will like it or not. Buying or preping a full on race bike is going to cost alot more then some case covers, dampner, Etc.

Also I wouldn't count the AMA member ship as a cost cause that is something you should have already. Plus it will save you money. It has saved me about $200 dollars this year already. 10 percent off at most motorcycle shops.


Pros
Upgrades for your street bike
Learning how to ride better
Cheaper then pre or buying a full race bike
And getting a shot at racing

Cons
Ya it is gonna cost some but not as much if it wasnt there.
Risk of dropping street bike on the track. (same risk on a track day)




Also I am sure you would be able to borrow leathers and gear just like a track day to see if you will like it.

Sully
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 11:04 AM
I think what Sean means is that if you spend $ for case covers, steering damper, etc. and wreck your street bike, it's going to cost a lot more than you initially thought, so essentially, it may NOT be cheaper in the long run. <shrug>

dirkterrell
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 11:04 AM
What is the $600 for? Sean had a break-down of costs. If you are talking about adding a track-ready race bike, then yes the cost goes up, but this is for a street bike class.

So what does the "street bike class" include? Tires? Tire warmers? And all the same stuff as if you were racing?

More info please...

I was referring to Sean's $600 figure and comment. I think case guards would be a necessity and minimal wiring, like the oil drain plug. I would be more than happy to help people do that.

Now, if you're one of these people who spends money on useless bling for your bike, like aftermarket pipes, I don't want to hear any whining about how expensive racing is. :)

Dirk

dirkterrell
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 11:12 AM
Buying or preping a full on race bike is going to cost alot more then some case covers, dampner, Etc.


I bought race plastics and case guards for the Gixxer and went racing last year. Stock chain, stock brakes, stock exhaust, stock levers, stock pegs, stock shock, etc. You don't have to spend a bunch of money on the bike. Spend your money on learning how to really ride it. Mark Schellinger was at Jason Pridmore's class yesterday and he, a two-time MRA #1 plate holder, very experienced racer, and fast as hell, was learning some things yesterday. The bike is not the limitation for most of us, so why spend a bunch of money there?

Dirk

Tipys
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 11:19 AM
I bought race plastics and case guards for the Gixxer and went racing last year. Stock chain, stock brakes, stock exhaust, stock levers, stock pegs, stock shock, etc. You don't have to spend a bunch of money on the bike. Spend your money on learning how to really ride it. Mark Schellinger was at Jason Pridmore's class yesterday and he, a two-time MRA #1 plate holder, very experienced racer, and fast as hell, was learning some things yesterday. The bike is not the limitation for most of us, so why spend a bunch of money there?

Dirk


Ya I am not counting upgrades in my mind just the min. But it would be nice to have the extra goodies though.

Depending on bike it could be anywhere from about 1k to 2.2k and thats if you install everything yourself. Case covers 300-500 , dampner 0-700 (some bikes have them stock), and Plastics 300-1k.

asp_125
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Racing isn't cheap, but compare the investment in ski/snowboard equipment and season's passes, or a set of golf clubs and green fees; then it doesn't seem so bad.

Sully
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 11:49 AM
No, it's not soo bad, but when you're shaggin' your tires out so much that you need new ones once a month (or even more often), it really starts to add up :( (and I don't even buy the top of the line tires). Just things to think about :)

Bueller
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:14 PM
The thing people that have never raced don't understand is that racing is not for everyone, it is very hard to race. It is mentally anguishing.
I think too many people get into it for the cool factor.
No matter how you slice or dice it, bottom line is it is expensive.
It is also very addictive, the Adrenalin is the heroin. The addiction allows you to justify the expense.
There are highs and crashes as with any addiction, I am a recovering racer.

Nick_Ninja
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:17 PM
The thing people that have never raced don't understand is that racing is not for everyone, it is very hard to race. It is mentally anguishing.
I think too many people get into it for the cool factor.
No matter how you slice or dice it, bottom line is it is expensive.
It is also very addictive, the Adrenalin is the heroin. The addiction allows you to justify the expense.
There are highs and crashes as with any addiction, I am a recovering racer.

Step one (1) of twelve (12)

Hi! My name is Dave and I'm ........... :lol:

Snowman
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:19 PM
The simple problem is this. The MRA does not have enough racers showing up at their races in order to pay the bills. Whenever this happens, a business must do two things, cut overhead and bring in more customers. Since it appears, they have cut everything they can and still are unable to keep going with the racers they have they must drawn in more racers.

We seem to be getting what the racers in the MRA want the not yet racers to do to join their ranks. So how about we take this from the other side.

What do you guys/gals that are not racing (but want to) want of the MRA to get you going and stay in the game?

Things like…
Are tires too expensive? Well maybe they can spec them so everybody run the same.

Wiring your bike sounds like a pain? Maybe there should be a minimal list of things that have to be wired and a list of people/places and costs to get this done.

Are case covers necessary or can frame sliders and case guards solve work?

There is a compromise out there, we just need to find it.

konichd
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:19 PM
Open up a Ninja 250 class, they are inexpensive (hell you could get one for what it would take to prep a bike you already had), make modifications limited. Its catching on everywhere else but here. This is your best option to go racing on the "cheap" without cutting corners on safety (dropping MRA requirements for tech to get this new class started). Tires last a lot longer and you could always sell the bike to upcoming racer's that are getting into the scene. "Life cycle" cost over the season would be less than on a typical 600 or 1000cc sportbike, you wouldn't use as many tires, etc. could effectively keep the cost down.

Maybe even drop entry fee's for the 250 class. I would definately race this class if it was available

asp_125
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Open up a Ninja 250 class, they are inexpensive (hell you could get one for what it would take to prep a bike you already had), make modifications limited. Its catching on everywhere else but here. This is your best option to go racing on the "cheap" without cutting corners on safety (dropping MRA requirements for tech to get this new class started).

Maybe even drop entry fee's for the 250 class. I would definately race this class if it was available

+1 .. one of my friends races "sippy cup" back east and has loads of fun. Well maybe not so fun down the straight at Pueblo or La Junta, where you can time it with a sundial, but I probably think HPR won't be too bad.

silkboxr
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:39 PM
Why does the MRA have to rebuild the wheel? Look at what the folks up in Utah did to attract new racers into a streetbike class at their track when it 1st opened (Miller Motorsports)!

They helped the new riders by giving them a free race school as long as the pre registered for I think it was three races, and of course they kept points why else would you race if there wasn't a chance of winning something?

Plus the entry fees where very cheap and all the bikes where basically stock, no slicks, no aftermarket suspension and no engine work. Just tape up your light take off the mirrors and go. The MRA Champ Shane Turnpin was a key player in getting the Street Bike class.

The MRA better look at attracting the average guy instead of the NASA Engineer to the club if they want to survive. Just my opinion...:)

BigE
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:46 PM
I think a (semi) "stock" Ninja 250 class would be great. Or something like the 450 singles (converted MX bikes), although I think the folks promoting that as a cheap race bike haven't figured out the topend replacement cost and how often a 450 is going to need one being run wide open all the time.
SuMo bikes are relatively cheap, hold up well to crashing and are pretty much easily gotten.
I think the original idea of a streetbike/ run whatcha brung class is the best way to get some folks hooked enough to start dumping money into racing but you need it to cost like a couple hundred bucks or less for the "experience", just my .02.

BigE
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:47 PM
Why does the MRA have to rebuild the wheel? Look at what the folks up in Utah did to attract new racers into a streetbike class at their track when it 1st opened (Miller Motorsports)!

They helped the new riders by giving them a free race school as long as the pre registered for I think it was three races, and of course they kept points why else would you race if there wasn't a chance of winning something?

Plus the entry fees where very cheap and all the bikes where basically stock, no slicks, no aftermarket suspension and no engine work. Just tape up your light take off the mirrors and go. The MRA Champ Shane Turnpin was a key player in getting the Street Bike class.

The MRA better look at attracting the average guy instead of the NASA Engineer to the club if they want to survive. Just my opinion...:)

+1, exactly what I was thinking.

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:51 PM
In reference to my post, I'm not complaining about the fees and I'm not saying they are unrealistic; but for one event, they are high. Personally, I'm hoping to try and race next year (someone's gotta be last), and the upfront costs are more managable if you are putting in a whole season, but for one race? Add safety wire and you might be able to pull off a few races.

And Trevor, I was only refering to basic upfront costs. Everybody's situation is different. I'm just saying that getting street riders may be a good idea, but I don't feel this is accesible for a lot of people under the current economic situation.

Boy Scout
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 12:56 PM
Great thread! It's refreshing to see a few people opening their minds to new ideas.

I've never had any serious interest in racing -- my attendance at track days has always just been for fun -- but track days are addicting and at this point, I would entertain something like this.

There are several issues that have always prevented me from considering racing. First and foremost is the cost (e.g., a race bike, prep, support equipment, tires, etc). Second is the time -- I simply don't have the time to make every race of the season, which automatically removes any possibility of seasonal achievements (e.g. trophies, etc.). Third, which is actually a side-effect of #1 and #2, is a lack of motivation as a result of the circumstances (i.e. I would be dumping a bunch of cash and running a few races with no chance of winning the big prize).

With regard to the idea at hand, my thoughts are that it should be a real race, but that each race would stand on its own (i.e. not a season-long series). A simulated race sounds fake to me, and takes away from the experience. Why would you want to pay to take the same class and get the same license as the regular racers only to participate in a fake race. These riders would still be "racers", just not racing at the same level as the full-timers. The benefits of standalone races are that because each race stands on its own, it's possible for someone that can only make a race or two during the season to actually achieve something meaningful within the time and funding limitations they have to work with.

As has been mentioned, there are several possible outcomes, however I actually see three: 1) The rider hates it and never does it again, 2) The rider enjoys it and continues to participate in this class as time and funds allow, and 3) The rider loves it and morphs into a full-time racer. All three benefit the MRA to varying degrees. Worst case the MRA gets a school fee, a license fee, and one entry fee. Best case it end up with another full-time racer.

I have no issues with the requirements as listed. I don't see the AMA membership at $39/year (I'm already a member), a $50-$100, or even the normal $200 one-time race school, and a $100 (annual?) MRA license as being huge obstacles. The only bike requirements beyond what is required at Chicane Track Days is the engine case guards, steering damper (some newer bikes come with these) and some safety wiring -- all initial setup things. Gear requirements are fairly standard as well.

I agree on the no trophies, points, contingency, and championships NOT being part of it, however some nicely printed certificates would be a nice touch, would add something meaningful to the experience, and wouldn't cost the MRA any significant money. To me, something like this would be a a step above a track day. Track days are not races. This would be a real race with real competition.

I have no statistics supporting either viewpoint, but my gut feel tells me that street bikes don't cause any more "damage" to the track than other track users (e.g., race bikes, cars, etc.). In reality, I think this is more of an ego issue among some racers trying to separate and elevate themselves as being better than everyone else, being overly protective of "their" track, etc. I would bet that the cars do more damage to the track than any street bike ever could -- one reportedly dumped 5 quarts of oil on the track a week ago. I understand many of the racers have an investment, but street riders also have an investment through donations, track day participation, etc. As long as reasonable precautions are taken (i.e. participants are properly educated on the requirements, no glycol is allowed, meaningful Tech Inspections are performed, etc.), I don't see this as being the huge issue that it is made out to be.


I agree with the novality statement above. The reason I say that is because if I have gone to the trouble to go to the race class, get AMA and MRA memberships paid up, bought case covers, maybe some saftey wiring then why would I not race?
Money and time.


I could see this being a one time shot for potential racers and if I did half way decent I would jump right to real the thing (which maybe is the goal here).
For people that have the money and the time, that may very well be the case. I would think that getting people involved in the sport would be a primary goal of offering something like, but even if they stayed at the street level, or even tried it only one time, the MRA still benefits from it.


I think this class will be a good way for street riders to trash there nice OEM fairings but to each their own.
If you're going to trash them, you may as well have fun doing it. Sure people are going to push harder, but at least they are doing it in a cleaner, safer environment than on the street. Again, no statistics, but how many streetbikes get trashed on the street vs. on the track. I could be wrong, but I would also suspect that with it being their only bike, street riders might tend to hold back a little bit since a crash is going to curtail their street riding as well.


From my point of view, if I wanted the race experience I would just make the commitment and race; none of this pretend racing stuff. If I go to the trouble of getting a license, prepping the bike, the support vehicle and trailer etc. it's not a stretch to actually race. If I just wanted track time, Chicane has a great program for that already.
If you have the funds and the time, by all means go full-tilt. Many don't have that luxury. This being a real race makes it more than just track time. There is competition and undoubtedly a bit more adrenaline involved.


You go through the PITA process of taping up lights, etc each weekend and pretty soon you realize the value of having a race bike that you don't have to convert back and forth. So while the idea is good, in the long run I see participants either trying it once and dropping out, or moving up to the real MRA classes. So long term survival of such a class is doubtful.
Maybe. I've done enough track days to know that converting is a PITA, however it takes about 20 minutes each way and I get more use out of something I already own. If the MRA gives it a fair shot (i.e. at least a season) and it doesn't work, nothing says that it has to continue, but why not try it, especially since it has been successful with other clubs.


If you actually want street riders to race, the requirments would need to be similar to a trackday with maybe a one day license fee for the MRA. Then get a rider rep to hit the very basics so that everyone is on the same page.
I agree. The one-day license is an interesting idea. Depending on the pricing, it may be cheaper to pay the $100 fee, but if someone is looking at it as a one-time deal it would be great.


The thing that is hard for me, is that upfront costs. I even have a race prepped bike, but to spend:
AMA membership $40
MRA Membership $150
MRA School $300
One Endurance Race $50-100
= $550-600

It's kind of steep. And that's not including any additions to a bike (case covers, steering damper if you don't have them). And I don't even know about the insurance that one would need. How much would that run? While I think the MRA does need a boost, and I am happy to help if I can, getting someone to drop $600 for 30 min of fun (with no scoring or recognition) doesn't really seem worth it to me.
I'm with ya on the $40, but I thought the license was around $100 and the original post mentioned the class costing $50-$100. I also saw no mention of an endurance race or entry fee cost. Where did you get those numbers?

In any case, yes it costs money. The costs of getting involved in track days wasn't cheap either. For many it required purchasing gear that they didn't already have. That also had the benefit of getting them better gear for their street riding, but the bottom line is, they didn't own it before they started riding the track, so it was an upfront investment that they were willing to make. It still seems small to me compared to the amount required for full-on racing, and much of it is one-time costs. Once you have that out of the way, $50-$100 to enter a race is cheaper than a track day.


Given the current MRA participation problems, why create yet another undersubscribed class?
Why not? What are they going to lose by trying it? It seems to me that the potential benefits from trying something different (that has worked for other clubs) far outweigh the potential consequences of not giving it a shot.



My feeling is that if $600 seems like a lot of startup money to spend, then racing probably isn't for you.
For full-time racing I would agree, but this wouldn't necessarily be full-time racing? What if someone has limited time and can't participate full-time, or they have some play money, but not enough to do a full-season and be competitive at it. There is a huge gap between doing a few track days or races at this level, and what the club racers spend on a a season of racing. I guess I view it more as an entry level deal: Street Class -> Regular Classes -> AMA -> WSBK/MotoGP -- it's just another level at a lower price point to involve more people in the sport, some of which will undoubtedly move up the ladder. With this in mind, it needs to be fairly simple, straight forward, and feasible or you'll simply drive people away.


Are tires too expensive? Well maybe they can spec them so everybody run the same.
-1
I'm not following you here. I'm already buying street tires for my street bike, which is what I would be racing, right? Why would I want to buy specific tires that I'm not familiar with and swap them back and forth all the time. Unless I have two sets of wheels (an additional cost), I'm now having to pay lots of mounting fees. What am I missing?


Wiring your bike sounds like a pain? Maybe there should be a minimal list of things that have to be wired and a list of people/places and costs to get this done.
+1


The simple problem is this. The MRA does not have enough racers showing up at their races in order to pay the bills. Whenever this happens, a business must do two things, cut overhead and bring in more customers. Since it appears, they have cut everything they can and still are unable to keep going with the racers they have they must drawn in more racers.

We seem to be getting what the racers in the MRA want the not yet racers to do to join their ranks. So how about we take this from the other side.

What do you guys/gals that are not racing (but want to) want of the MRA to get you going and stay in the game?

There is a compromise out there, we just need to find it.
+1


Why does the MRA have to rebuild the wheel? Look at what the folks up in Utah did to attract new racers into a streetbike class at their track when it 1st opened (Miller Motorsports)!

They helped the new riders by giving them a free race school as long as the pre registered for I think it was three races, and of course they kept points why else would you race if there wasn't a chance of winning something?

Plus the entry fees where very cheap and all the bikes where basically stock, no slicks, no aftermarket suspension and no engine work. Just tape up your light take off the mirrors and go. The MRA Champ Shane Turnpin was a key player in getting the Street Bike class.

The MRA better look at attracting the average guy instead of the NASA Engineer to the club if they want to survive. Just my opinion...:)
+1
Sounds like an excellent resource for the MRA to utilize. Find out what worked and what didn't. Local circumstances may require some modifications, but at least you have a starting point.

A big THANKS to Jeff (MRA 927) for getting this discussion started.

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 01:01 PM
How is the MOM series in Utah doing?

I know they "MOM" have called several MRA members that have raced their series in the past to see why they have not been racing there lately. They were told even 3 or 4 more racers would be a big help because of the small grids there recently.



Why does the MRA have to rebuild the wheel? Look at what the folks up in Utah did to attract new racers into a streetbike class at their track when it 1st opened (Miller Motorsports)!

They helped the new riders by giving them a free race school as long as the pre registered for I think it was three races, and of course they kept points why else would you race if there wasn't a chance of winning something?

Plus the entry fees where very cheap and all the bikes where basically stock, no slicks, no aftermarket suspension and no engine work. Just tape up your light take off the mirrors and go. The MRA Champ Shane Turnpin was a key player in getting the Street Bike class.

The MRA better look at attracting the average guy instead of the NASA Engineer to the club if they want to survive. Just my opinion...:)

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 01:08 PM
While i like the idea of a Ninja 250 cup or the 450 series. Im not sure how this helps our current situation of the lack of racers showing up.

Seems most new racers turn their street bike into a race bike or purchase a bike that is already in race trim. The 250 cup is cool and would be hella fun if there was 15-20 others to race against. I dont think most people would buy a bike that would only be competitive in one class.

The 450s are bad ass indeed but not exactly inexpensive to build. Also depending on who you talk to they can be expensive to maintain.
Mike

asp_125
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 01:13 PM
I saw the 450 race bikes at Laguna and talked with the guy. To build one up and race it will be around $12K, not including tires or top end rebuilds.

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 01:24 PM
I saw the 450 race bikes at Laguna and talked with the guy. To build one up and race it will be around $12K, not including tires or top end rebuilds.

Thats my point, if we are worried about $$$ $12k++ is going to be very hard to do.

asp_125
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 01:29 PM
Whereas a used Ninja 250 with a minimal amount of prep could be doable by a lot more folks.

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 01:29 PM
I'm with ya on the $40, but I thought the license was around $100 and the original post mentioned the class costing $50-$100. I also saw no mention of an endurance race or entry fee cost. Where did you get those numbers?Maybe I misread the first post, but I thought it would be a $50-100 entrance fee for the actual race. I think endurance races are around $50 anyway?


The rider requirements would be;
current AMA member,
completion of MRA race school,
current MRA license
Cost of a class would be somewhere between $50-$100.
This is how I figured the amounts. MRA license is around $100 if you buy it at the beginning of the year. Current price is $150. I think the next race school is at HPR, which is $300. Pueblo is cheaper, but I don't know when they offer it again there? AMA is pretty straight forward. Then my reading of it, added on a class fee to run in the street endurance. Maybe I'm wrong though?

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 01:43 PM
Whereas a used Ninja 250 with a minimal amount of prep could be doable by a lot more folks.


True, but what kind of money do you think it would take?

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 01:48 PM
I agree with Mike on the 250 idea. If the MRA were strong, it would be a possibility. It would be hard to field a full grid with having nothing already established. The chances of having 20-30 people show up next season with race prepped 250's is pretty slim. I betcha it would be hella fun!

Player 2
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Definitely interested to see how the MRA handles these suggestions...

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 02:40 PM
Definitely interested to see how the MRA handles these suggestions...


I am happy to bring any suggestions to the MRA board of directors.

As far as "these" suggetions, are you refering to

1 The ninja 250 class
2 The 450 class

Tipys
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 02:49 PM
I am happy to bring any suggestions to the MRA board of directors.

As far as "these" suggetions, are you refering to

1 The ninja 250 class
2 The 450 class


Others I heard were
-single day MRA memberships fees
..........

Zach929rr
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 02:53 PM
Alot of track day riders become racers after they crash their street bike on the track. Its usually cheaper to make it a race bike then to make it a minty street bike again.

I agree with this statement, however the series would really not appeal to me. The 929 has become the "beater" for both street riding and track days. I don't really care about having a flashy bike on the street, my priorities are rather placed on a mechanically sound machine. That being said, I just swap the tail sections out and use my busted up tail section as a nifty trackside helmet holder.

If I want to race seriously, I'll by a used 600 race bike. I'll get more out of a 600 on the track than I will a 1K, at least from a learning (perhaps learning curve?) stand point when (if?) I decide to take it to that level.

rforsythe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 02:56 PM
Others I heard were
-single day MRA memberships fees
..........

That exists now. Buy a weekend license for $50. At least at the moment, if you hold another org's license they are even waiving that.

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 02:56 PM
Others I heard were
-single day MRA memberships fees
..........


single day membership not a single day license correct?

rforsythe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 02:59 PM
single day membership not a single day license correct?

What's the difference?

konichd
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:04 PM
True, but what kind of money do you think it would take?

I think it would be reasonalbe to say @ $3,000 dollars. Find a 00-06 Ninja 250 for @ $2,000, some race bodywork, safety wire, case covers (if needed), a set of bridgestone tires (spec tire?) I would think you could easily stick in this price range (or maybe less) and have some $$$ left over for additional tires, gas, brake pads, etc.

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:07 PM
What's the difference?

Well in the past you could purchase an associate membership and have voting rights for a reduced price but not be able to race.

Race license you get to vote and race

From the rule book
MRA Racing License holders are provided free gate entry at all events
MRA Associate Membership (voting, non-transferable) cardholders are provided free gate entry at selected events.
MRA Crew Passes (non-voting, transferable) are provided free gate entry at selected events.

racedk6
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:11 PM
Why doesnt a class like this get paired with the sportsman class???

I think they are similar and would have the same level of riders. Sportsman only has like 5-7 people racing it... All you get for racing in sportsman is to move up or be bumped out of that class.

Just a quick thought

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:15 PM
So, here's what I got as far as costs if I were to take my 750 to the track and race in the street bike class...if it becomes a reality next year:

Scotts Steering Damper - Kawasaki Z750
$431.10

Scotts Damper Mounting Bracket Kit - Kawasaki Z750S
2006 to 2008
$139.00

R&G Racing Products
Engine Case Slider - Carbon Kevlar
£34.04 -- dunno what the conversion to US$ is

XPO Streetfighter Inc.
Big Bike Kawasaki Z750/Z1000 Belly Pan
$300.00

So, right there, I'm spending close to $800. Then, we have the costs as mentioned before. So, add another $600. Now, it's more like ~1400 to race my street bike.

Am I wrong with this thinking? Is there something else I'm missing?

Just trying to see what kind of vacation I'd be missing out on...a weekend trip to Trinidad, or a weekend at the beach in the Mexican Riviera.

rforsythe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:19 PM
Well in the past you could purchase an associate membership and have voting rights for a reduced price but not be able to race.

Race license you get to vote and race

From the rule book
MRA Racing License holders are provided free gate entry at all events
MRA Associate Membership (voting, non-transferable) cardholders are provided free gate entry at selected events.
MRA Crew Passes (non-voting, transferable) are provided free gate entry at selected events.

Fair enough, but nobody's going to buy a one-day associate membership, so really we're just talking about a single-use race license / membership, which exists now. :)

rforsythe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:20 PM
I think it would be reasonalbe to say @ $3,000 dollars. Find a 00-06 Ninja 250 for @ $2,000, some race bodywork, safety wire, case covers (if needed), a set of bridgestone tires (spec tire?) I would think you could easily stick in this price range (or maybe less) and have some $$$ left over for additional tires, gas, brake pads, etc.

I would say less than 3K if you shop around, especially considering the 250's are raced all over in the coastal areas since their power doesn't completely suck balls at sea level.

eklew
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:44 PM
So, here's what I got as far as costs if I were to take my 750 to the track and race in the street bike class...if it becomes a reality next year:

Scotts Steering Damper - Kawasaki Z750
$431.10

Scotts Damper Mounting Bracket Kit - Kawasaki Z750S
2006 to 2008
$139.00

R&G Racing Products
Engine Case Slider - Carbon Kevlar
£34.04 -- dunno what the conversion to US$ is

XPO Streetfighter Inc.
Big Bike Kawasaki Z750/Z1000 Belly Pan
$300.00

So, right there, I'm spending close to $800. Then, we have the costs as mentioned before. So, add another $600. Now, it's more like ~1400 to race my street bike.

Am I wrong with this thinking? Is there something else I'm missing?

Just trying to see what kind of vacation I'd be missing out on...a weekend trip to Trinidad, or a weekend at the beach in the Mexican Riviera.

Since we are all in financial strains these days, please search ebay, WERA, AFM, or any other avenues and look for used items. You will save a ton of money. The first item you listed is a steering stabilizer. You can find those for half of what you listed for a used piece in perfectly good condition. You may have to pony up for new brackets however. Just my opinion on trying to find bargains out there.

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Why doesnt a class like this get paired with the sportsman class???

I think they are similar and would have the same level of riders. Sportsman only has like 5-7 people racing it... All you get for racing in sportsman is to move up or be bumped out of that class.

Just a quick thought

That would be a good fit and if there was 1 or more people that had a ninja 250 right now all they would have to do is sign up.

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:47 PM
So instead of bitching about things (me, not you) lets try and be proactive. What would it take for some of us to get out there on a race weekend? Not the season, just one or two weekends. In order to keep the MRA going; what can we do?


The rider requirements would be;
current AMA member
current MRA license
completion of MRA race school
I understand being an AMA/MRA member for insurance. AMA there is nothing we could do. But what options are there for one race memberships? Because we would only be competing against other street people, could there be an alternate/condensed race school for a lesser fee? One that would not apply to racing in other categories?


Bike requirements;
no antifreeze
engine case guards required
lenses or glass taped off
steering dampenerWould it possible to make this closer to a track day tech. While case covers and a damper are important, would they be necessary for a one of two time use this season? Could there be any flexability with this?


Gear requirements;
helmet (latest snell rating)
back protector
one or two piece leathers
gloves
boots. Seems pretty fair and pretty standard.


Cost of a class would be somewhere between $50-$100. $50 will get more people than $100. Plus, other endurance races are $50, correct?


As of now the idea doesn't include scoring each class so no trophies, points, contengency, or championships. And the MRA rulebook would be followed in terms of racer conduct and any other issues!!!! Maybe not having an overall effect on the MRA, but it would be good to have recognition among the category? Somesort of acknowledgment per weekend (if it happened more than once). I bet many people would love some sort of certificate if you placed top 5 etc.

These are just ideas. I'm just trying to think of a few ways to get more people out on the track to keep the MRA going. The last thing I want to do is belittle or undermind the real racers. If things are accesible and affordable, people will do them. Again, just my .02

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:47 PM
I would say less than 3K if you shop around, especially considering the 250's are raced all over in the coastal areas since their power doesn't completely suck balls at sea level.


We are talking about the kawasaki ninja 250 not TZ or RS 250's right?

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:49 PM
Shineyside, the MRA board is already looking at basically everything you listed as well as many other suggestions.
Mike

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:52 PM
Fair enough, but nobody's going to buy a one-day associate membership, so really we're just talking about a single-use race license / membership, which exists now. :)

You are correct sir. I was trying to be clear on what he was asking.

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Shineyside, the MRA board is already looking at basically everything you listed as well as many other suggestions.
MikeGreat. But not everybody is going to check those boards (like me), and the CSC is going to be one of the contributing factors to see if this might work. I may be wrong, but CSC is pretty much your target audience, isn't it? So I'd be interested in hearing what we (as in the collective "we") think.

Bueller
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:04 PM
Why doesnt a class like this get paired with the sportsman class???

I think they are similar and would have the same level of riders.

You make it a contingency class you will get a few experts in there :hump:

Scotts Steering Damper - Kawasaki Z750
$431.10

Scotts Damper Mounting Bracket Kit - Kawasaki Z750S
2006 to 2008
$139.00


First giant cost savings would be eliminating the need for this crap :scream1:

That would be a good fit and if there was 1 or more people that had a ninja 250 right now all they would have to do is sign up.
This would be probably the only class I would consider racing, and I do happen to have 1. But I will never race with the MRA as long as Costner is president.

We are talking about the kawasaki ninja 250 not TZ or RS 250's right?
God I hope so, my baby ninja would cry :cry:

rforsythe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:05 PM
We are talking about the kawasaki ninja 250 not TZ or RS 250's right?

That's my understanding, yeah. Simple, reliable, not terribly fast but probably corners great. We have one at home now, I might bring it out for the next track day Aug 16th just to see what a stock one does on a track at this elevation if I can sort the carbs before then.


Great. But not everybody is going to check those boards (like me), and the CSC is going to be one of the contributing factors to see if this might work. I may be wrong, but CSC is pretty much your target audience, isn't it? So I'd be interested in hearing what we (as in the collective "we") think.

Sean he's talking about the Board of Directors, not the MRA "board" i.e. forum. I think they know CSC is a target audience. :)

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Sean he's talking about the Board of Directors, not the MRA "board" i.e. forum. Well then....that would make more sense. :oops:

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:13 PM
Great. But not everybody is going to check those boards (like me), and the CSC is going to be one of the contributing factors to see if this might work. I may be wrong, but CSC is pretty much your target audience, isn't it? So I'd be interested in hearing what we (as in the collective "we") think.


Nothing has been decided yet but as soon as something is i will post it here. All of the ideas are being put together to be looked at for pros and cons.

For the most up to date info checking the MRA boards would be a good idea.

dirkterrell
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:16 PM
While case covers and a damper are important, would they be necessary for a one of two time use this season?

I wouldn't feel too bad if the damper requirement was scratched (although it has saved my bacon a couple of times) but the case covers would have to be done. Oil on the track is too likely to occur with a class like this and it could ruin the entire weekend.

Dirk

Nick_Ninja
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:25 PM
<snip>
This would be probably the only class I would consider racing, and I do happen to have 1. But I will never race with the MRA as long as Costner is president.



And the real issue has been revealed ..................... :D

Bueller
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:33 PM
And the real issue has been revealed ..................... :D
My issue, the MRA's or both :dunno: :)

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:36 PM
I wouldn't feel too bad if the damper requirement was scratched (although it has saved my bacon a couple of times) but the case covers would have to be done. Oil on the track is too likely to occur with a class like this and it could ruin the entire weekend.
I agree 100%. I have both on the track bike but I was just playing devil's advocate to make things more accessible for everyone. My logic (or lack of), was that we have many track days without needing to have them. It appears that we haven't really run into any problems withing the past 2 years. I didn't know if it could be something to be flexable on? Like I said, just a circumstantial idea. :)

rforsythe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:52 PM
Case covers IMO aren't a major deal and here's why:
1. In my experience (years of it at this point), there really isn't a much greater incidence of big oil-down's from street riders versus racers.
2. The big oil incidents come from blown motors, loose filters and drains, etc. These most definitely happen to racers with all the tech requirements on the planet at least as much as street guys; in fact the three biggest oil incidents I have ever had to clean (read: hour-plus efforts with trucks and lots of people) were from race prepped bikes. Belly pans don't mean shit when it's being blown out the back at 80mph.
3. If a non-aftermarket-covered bike crashes and spills itself, we are talking a max of 3 quarts really, and likely less. Most crashes end up in the dirt after a brief slide. In reality aftermarket case covers will not make one damn bit of difference when you consider everyone's Great Big Fear here is some asshole oiling down a full turn, etc. Even if he blew the side of the motor off while right on the line on the apex as he lowsides, the bike will slide off-line quickly and make most of its mess in one place once it's stops. Easy to clean.
4. The argument that they might make a bigger mess and "we won't race after a street bike is out there" is horse shit. Just what do you think happens on Friday lap days?

IMO the risk of a day-affecting or safety-altering oil event will be dramatically reduced by simply requiring that drain pan bolts be wired and filters secured using the $2 hose clamp method. Easy to verify at tech, and really the same level of risk for post-tech trickery for race and street bikes alike. The case covers just aren't that big of a deal. Yes they're a good idea, but it isn't like the major oil incidents we usually experience have anything to do with whether they were on the bike or not.

The best requirements we could make would be safety wire to MRA standards, and flushed (and verified) cooling systems.

dirkterrell
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:53 PM
It appears that we haven't really run into any problems withing the past 2 years.

Yeah, but the racing environment is at a much higher level of intensity in terms of competitiveness and passing. At a track day if I'm stuck behind someone, I'll be patient and pass them when it is ultra safe. If I am in a race, my mindset is very different. I'll be looking to get by them at the very first opportunity. That mentality, combined with people who are inexperienced in that environment will lead to crashes.

Someone said earlier that it sounded like racers were being sort of "elitist" with their objections about eliminating various safety requirements. But that is the farthest thing from the truth. These things have been developed over many years of experience with making racing as safe as possible. They aren't just made up will-nilly to keep people out of the club. Far from it. I think all of us would like to see racing grow and thrive. We just don't want to take unnecessary risks in doing so.

Dirk

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 04:55 PM
Since we are all in financial strains these days, please search ebay, WERA, AFM, or any other avenues and look for used items. You will save a ton of money. The first item you listed is a steering stabilizer. You can find those for half of what you listed for a used piece in perfectly good condition. You may have to pony up for new brackets however. Just my opinion on trying to find bargains out there.

Yep...thinking about other ways to take care of what I would need to take care of. And as Sean reminded us with his quoting of Jeff's post...there is no mention of belly pan. I would think though, that since I have a semi-naked bike that it would be best if I had one of those as well?

chad23
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 05:14 PM
with all the requirements for the bike, I would rather go to a chicane track day and pretend to race there. If you want me to "race" in a class like this. I would if it was a run what you brung. Pass inspection get some practice time and race a bit. At a reasonable cost with minimal prep. With all the fees and bike prep, shit i might as well get a used race bike and just race.
This should be an introduction to racing not season long racing so price it as if.
I am sorry the MRA is having a hard time, but you ain't going to get out of this slump by over charging us to play for a day we dont have that kind of $$$. I am not paying out that much in bike prep and fee for a day of fun. I would be willing to pay $200 maybe $250 in total to go. I am not going to safety wire my street bike and i am not going to buy all that race required stuff, not for my street bike. But to pay a little more than track day fees to say I raced for a day and won a paper certificate, sure you can get me to go

hope that helps a little

mtnairlover
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 05:19 PM
After reading Chad's post, another thing occurred to me. What do the kids pay to race their street legal cars at Bandimere? What kinds of things do they have to do to their cars, etc to "pass" muster? I mean, if taking your street vehicle to a track to actually participate in a race, shouldn't the idea behind that be that you don't need to do too much to make that vehicle track ready?

Sorry to add that into the mix considering I'm all gung-ho...but, it's just more to consider I guess.

Bashed
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 05:24 PM
I personally would not ride in this proposed class.
If I was to race, I would prefer to get lapped by
racers, not a street rider due to the inexperiance.
It is my opinion that the risk would be greater to have
an incident getting me hurt.

I will be at the next round to race on a borrowed
(read wifes) bike to support the club, as my race bike I am building
is not ready yet to ride due to various issues.

So, see you'all at the next round, don't bump me off
when you pass me.:scramble:

Peace Bash

rforsythe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 05:34 PM
What class(es) ya racing Bash?

hcr25
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 06:00 PM
What class(es) ya racing Bash?

Meat Grinder aka MW endurance.
I will see you on the back row my friend!

mforza
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 06:21 PM
with all the requirements for the bike, I would rather go to a chicane track day and pretend to race there. If you want me to "race" in a class like this. I would if it was a run what you brung. Pass inspection get some practice time and race a bit. At a reasonable cost with minimal prep. With all the fees and bike prep, shit i might as well get a used race bike and just race.
This should be an introduction to racing not season long racing so price it as if.
I am sorry the MRA is having a hard time, but you ain't going to get out of this slump by over charging us to play for a day we dont have that kind of $$$. I am not paying out that much in bike prep and fee for a day of fun. I would be willing to pay $200 maybe $250 in total to go. I am not going to safety wire my street bike and i am not going to buy all that race required stuff, not for my street bike. But to pay a little more than track day fees to say I raced for a day and won a paper certificate, sure you can get me to go

hope that helps a little

That's how I see it too:)

peteremsley
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 06:59 PM
Thoughts from a first year racer that made the jump from (lots of) trackdays last year.

I reckon Grubbs almost nailed with his comment that this class could be run with Sportsman. Where I differ is that in my opinion this class should be Sportsman. I don’t know how the sportsman class came about, but suspect it was intended to encourage new, inexperienced, and slower riders to get involved. If that is the case, then it’s simply not working. The grids this year have been really light - at my guess, between 2 and 6 per weekend?

The Sportsman rules could transition to a new class with slightly relaxed tech rules. Ride what you’ve got (prepped to some degree). If you’re too fast, then you break out - it’s time for race plastics, new tires, a steering damper and case savers.

Maybe it could be run after endurance on a Saturday, rather than at prime-time on a Sunday. All the other races are done for the day, so committed racers could loan transponders to these guys - “adopt a sportsman” if you like. Sure it would score as the transponder owner, but does it matter? The race would be real, timed, and we could sort out the “peteremsley” is really “ShinySideUp” or “McVaaaaah” (hint, hint) afterwards if there was question over positions or times.

Price it like endurance ($50 or $75?), perhaps with the caveat that you can only run it X times during a season…if you are enjoying it and coming back, then step up to the meat grinder that is NovU and NovO J

rforsythe
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 07:20 PM
Meat Grinder aka MW endurance.
I will see you on the back row my friend!

Sweet! Yeah the back of that race is gonna be entertaining. :D

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 07:28 PM
The Sportsman rules could transition to a new class with slightly relaxed tech rules. Ride what you’ve got (prepped to some degree). If you’re too fast, then you break out - it’s time for race plastics, new tires, a steering damper and case savers. :up: I think that's a good idea Peter!


“adopt a sportsman” if you like. Sure it would score as the transponder owner, but does it matter? The race would be real, timed, and we could sort out the “peteremsley” is really “ShinySideUp” or “McVaaaaah” (hint, hint) Screw that McVaaaaah guy, he's a jerk. I bought your bike, I win :D :lol:

Nick_Ninja
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 08:14 PM
My issue, the MRA's or both :dunno: :)

More the MRA's but it has seemd to alienate many of the 'old timers' so I have heard.

Spongebutt
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 08:52 PM
Just a thought about the machinery. Someone earlier posted that older/prepped bikes are far less money to "race" on. This forum had a very nice 500 twin just a few weeks ago, went for around eleven hundred, I believe. While not an hp king, it IS eligible for...Lightweight Endurance, Lightweight GP(easy to get novice waiver from New Rider Director), Super Twins U, Novice U, Amateur U, Colorado Class, and of course, Sportsman.
I went the pre made route three years ago. Actually, it was four. I raced Sportsman Motard on my dirt bike for a season. Cost one set of tires. Still got them. Decided to learn to drag my knees. Bought a GSXR600 for 2500. Fully prepped, rear sets, ect(and spare motor of questionable heritage). Rode it for a year, sold it, and bought an SV650 for 2980 (which included the 490 for shipping). I've been racing it for the last three years(I did put flat slide carbs on it last year). Tires last a long time and maintenance is next to nothing.
My point(finally) is this. If you can live without the lastes and most expensive machinery and learn the basics, it can be done relatively inexpensively.
Of course, inexpensive is relative. You can spend 600 on hiking boots, so???
I really hope the intro class idea gains traction. Like Beuller said, Heroin....Cheap!

MRA 32
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:05 PM
My God! I started this late last night and my eyes are tired from 4 pages!!!!

I'll start with scoring. I needed feedback to see if people wanted a race or something more relaxed. The "simulated race" is a term we use in the race school. So I have talked to the scoring guy in the MRA and we can manually score a race, but it will require some more people and possibly expense. I don't want to force street bike riders to buy a $400.00 transponder! We can turn it into a championship with points but we have to have a class sponsor to pay for trophies. Plus I want to entice riders to move into a full prepped race bike and join the novice ranks.

Next the cash. As a rider you have to look at the big picture. AMA membership is $40, MRA license (I think streetriders would be associate members not racers with a dedicated race number) and this membership costs less (Mike Applesauce might know this cost off the top of his head), and the school which I guess runs about $300. This is an upfront cost. Then it all depends on how many race weekends and races you want to enter. If you want to chase a title you will run all the rounds. If you just want to go out and do a couple of races than great.

Racing is not for everyone, but everybody deserves the chance to taste it.

Bike prep: I need to clarify case guards, you can buy thickened covers for "X" or buy guards for less than "X". NOT all bikes have one or the other.Which means if covers are not available for your bike, you don't need them! (I hope this helps you Cathy) We require these basics for our insurance and years of experience racing in the MRA. Do you as a rider want to hit an oil slick at 100+?????

My intention is to get an idea what people think of this proposal. The 450 class will not happen (I am the only rider as of now racing one). The 250 cup won't work at this altitude either.

Bueller you may not like Conser for what ever reason, He has his good and bad points just like you and me. BUT he is one of the people who helped bring us HPR and for that I thank him.

As far as crashing your streetbike; if you aren't willing to light it on fire tomorrow than getting on the track isn't for you.

I'm sorry if I missed something in this post please let me know if I need to do some more explaining.

Thanks for all you opinions and thoughts they are helpful.

Jeff

64BonnieLass
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:16 PM
MRA....

I think it might be helpful to understand what is on your hands right now.

You did post a great thread in hopes of a further understanding from CSC in pushing the MRA towards needed goals.

However, you must understand the seperation.

There are sooo many CSC people who ride. And ride with courtesy and knowledge and time towards others.

But I do, for one, feel that many MRA members like to slam the CSC for it's membership and for it's forums. That is all fine and well, and I get that reasoning more then you know.

But just like MRA, when push comes to shove, the members of this CSC forum, take care of each other. And that is priceless.

However, to slander CSC in times past, and then somehow "reach out" when time are tough is hard for me.

I DO believe that there are a great many, talented and stellar riders on the CSC. I know it to be true first hand.

Many aren't MRA material, but they are personal quality teachers, in terms of protecting those they ride with.

I am MRA as a noob. So take this for what it is.

I won't say this on the MRA forums...but I am tired of MRA treating CSC like shit, until they decide they want something from us.

I have said on MRA that I believe CSC is a breeding ground for future racers. Some heard me, some didn't. I believe that the Chicane Track Day's are a breeding ground for future racers. And I will always believe that to be true.

Some of us will get struck by the bug, some won't. But those Chicane days are the play ground for the future MRA, should it stay so.

It would also help, if "rider reps" that are paid on the MRA did their job. Because honestly, the only two chicks that have ever helped me pursue this endevor, and help me push on, were Sasha and Jen. I have never been helped by any other women in the MRA.

So you guys decide.......

PS. My name on MRA is TerriRomaneschi. And if you want to use my words...you may if you so choose.

LambeauXLIV
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:17 PM
Which means if covers are not available for your bike, you don't need them!

Ummmm... if some people don't need covers, then why do others? That seems a little unfair if you ask me.

Make it one or the other, not both, regardless if covers are available for the bike or not.

Bueller
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:29 PM
Ok I really don't get the altitude restriction on the 250's.
Everyone is affected the same, so why would altitude matter?

Case covers are only needed on bikes w/vulnerable cases, twins for example are exempt because the engines are so much narrower.
What will they do about the r6's vulnerable tanks, would these owners be required to buy the protection required for the MRA tech?

LambeauXLIV
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:30 PM
^
Okay

Sean
Wed Jul 15th, 2009, 09:58 PM
I just read the MRA forum, and it seems like there are two main threads; one about why people aren't racing and one about putting up flyers. Granted, I may have missed some stuff, but I think that's the jist of it.

The ideas that they are hashing out don't seem like great or long term solutions. Trying to get people to attend the races is great, but is that going to save it? Or is filling the grids going to save it? Handing out/putting up flyers is good to help spread the word, something that's long been missing, but it's not going to get new racers. $10 for 2 people isn't a long term fix. And really, how much of a draw is there to hang out at HPR or Pueblo? There's nothing there, it's not a great situation for a spectator. I'm happy to go because I have friends there, but I don't think that applies to everyone. Maybe it will help get to the end of this season, but what about next year?


I have said on MRA that I believe CSC is a breeding ground for future racers. Some heard me, some didn't. I believe that the Chicane Track Day's are a breading ground for future racers. And I will always believe that to be true.I agree 100%. How else would someone get hooked on the track? And it doesn't seem like any CSC person who posts on there is received well. It's to bad because this is a large pool of potential racers. Maybe I'm off to left field with my thinking, but I feel like they really need to focus on getting some new blood in there. Maybe that could bring down some costs and the seasoned racers could afford to be back on the grid? (that'll never happen) Realistically, if I were the MRA, I would be working with the track day companies in order to recruit new riders to race.

silkboxr
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 12:07 AM
How is the MOM series in Utah doing?

I know they "MOM" have called several MRA members that have raced their series in the past to see why they have not been racing there lately. They were told even 3 or 4 more racers would be a big help because of the small grids there recently.


What I was mentioning is how they (Miller Motorsports) were able to attract new racers to the track i.e. street riders! Not who's got more racers now the MRA or MOM. That's not the point. The point is they bent over backwards to help the average guy take his street bike to the track and have some fun. That's what it's going to take to get new blood into the MRA which it needs badly in order to survive. I imagine every racing org. whether it be WERA or MRA are down on riders this year thanks to our economy..

A club no matter what it is car's or bikes or what ever is only as strong as it's member base!

Bueller
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 06:00 AM
Bueller you may not like Conser for what ever reason, He has his good and bad points just like you and me. BUT he is one of the people who helped bring us HPR and for that I thank him.


Terrific, now you have a track but the MRA has been in a tailspin for years now under his admin. Maybe he should have paid more attention to business of the MRA and not alienating current members and not setting up his own employment future. the MRA has been in financial trouble since way before this economic downturn. The failure of the MRA can only rest on the leadership. I like most of the Board members but they have failed.






However, to slander CSC in times past, and then somehow "reach out" when time are tough is hard for me.



Now it's time again isn't it?
They need more bikes/riders to plug into their "Matrix"

TheStig
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 07:36 AM
Is there such a thing as leasing a race bike? It used to be that you could lease spec cars for racing in series like spec miata etc. This limits the upfront costs for a racer. Might be a cheaper way for people to get into it.

rybo
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 08:17 AM
Ummmm... if some people don't need covers, then why do others? That seems a little unfair if you ask me.

Make it one or the other, not both, regardless if covers are available for the bike or not.

The purpose of the covers is to prevent the pavement from grinding though the stock covers and leaving a bunch of oil on the track.

In the case of my bike, ducati 748, the clutch is dry (no oil and in fact I run a cover with a bunch of holes in it) and the stator side is well inside the frame. There would be no point to putting reinforced case covers on my machine. On my last racebike, yamaha R6, the cases extended well beyond the frame and would have been one of the first things to touch down in the event of a crash. Both sides had oil behind them, so case covers were required on that bike.

Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to clarify why the rule is written the way it is.

s

TFOGGuys
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:12 AM
In reality aftermarket case covers will not make one damn bit of difference when you consider everyone's Great Big Fear here is some asshole oiling down a full turn, etc. ...

Hence the AMA dropping the requirement for the pros to have them years ago, as it was really a non-issue.

I think that the streetbike class could easily be likened to Chicane's "Never Ever" program as a tool to let people test the waters (read: get hooked on adrenaline), without having to make a huge financial commitment. If the MRA chooses to move forward with this, I think they should work closely with the USBA to ensure that they avoid the making the same mistakes and experiencing the attrition asociated with those mistakes. As racing goes, motorcycle roadracing is towards the semi-cheap ens of the scale, but when the cost to go out and SEE if you like it is $5K+, you're gonna scare off a LOT of potential racers. When I first started going to the MRA races in the mid 90's, the cost of a class, membership, and license totalled about $160. How is it that it's almost 4 times that much now? Throw in a transponder, a steering damper, and case covers, and pretty soon you're way on the wrong side of $1K...

Here's my take on how to control the costs:

1) Grant a "provisional license" good for 3 race weekends to anyone who can prove track experience(Chicane, Keith Code, Pridmore, etc.) for $50, upgradable to a full novice license any time during that season by paying the difference in license fee. A provisional license would only be valid for streetbike class , and maybe Sportsman.

2) drop the requirement for a steering damper in the streetbike class, but strongly recommend it.

3) drop the requirement for case covers for the streetbike class

4) offer transponder rentals for a single weekend with a security deposit. Nobody wants to race without knowing lap times.

5) Offer incentives to move up in racing, like free enrty in their next streetbike, Sportsman, or Novice race for the streetbike race winner.

My humble opinion, and probably worth less than what you paid for it. :)

Sully
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:16 AM
Is there such a thing as leasing a race bike? It used to be that you could lease spec cars for racing in series like spec miata etc. This limits the upfront costs for a racer. Might be a cheaper way for people to get into it.

I believe that 303Cycles has a fully prepped race bike available for rent. Contact Konichd to find out for sure.

LambeauXLIV
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:24 AM
just trying to clarify why the rule is written the way it is.

Got it, thanks.

mra828
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:27 AM
the MRA has been in a tailspin for years now under his admin.

:crazy:

You must've never met Andrew Drattlo...

:lol:

hcr25
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:29 AM
MRA....

I think it might be helpful to understand what is on your hands right now.

You did post a great thread in hopes of a further understanding from CSC in pushing the MRA towards needed goals.

However, you must understand the seperation.

There are sooo many CSC people who ride. And ride with courtesy and knowledge and time towards others.

But I do, for one, feel that many MRA members like to slam the CSC for it's membership and for it's forums. That is all fine and well, and I get that reasoning more then you know.

But just like MRA, when push comes to shove, the members of this CSC forum, take care of each other. And that is priceless.

However, to slander CSC in times past, and then somehow "reach out" when time are tough is hard for me.

I DO believe that there are a great many, talented and stellar riders on the CSC. I know it to be true first hand.

Many aren't MRA material, but they are personal quality teachers, in terms of protecting those they ride with.

I am MRA as a noob. So take this for what it is.

I won't say this on the MRA forums...but I am tired of MRA treating CSC like shit, until they decide they want something from us.

I have said on MRA that I believe CSC is a breeding ground for future racers. Some heard me, some didn't. I believe that the Chicane Track Day's are a breeding ground for future racers. And I will always believe that to be true.

Some of us will get struck by the bug, some won't. But those Chicane days are the play ground for the future MRA, should it stay so.

It would also help, if "rider reps" that are paid on the MRA did their job. Because honestly, the only two chicks that have ever helped me pursue this endevor, and help me push on, were Sasha and Jen. I have never been helped by any other women in the MRA.

So you guys decide.......

PS. My name on MRA is TerriRomaneschi. And if you want to use my words...you may if you so choose.


I think you are lumping everyone in the MRA as CSC bashers. That is not the case. I have been a member of the CSC since 2002. While I do think some CSC members are just asshats. There are just as many if not more in the MRA. I see alot of MRA bashing on the CSC forums as well. In my opinion look at who is doing the bashing and decide what you want to believe.
I’m sorry you don’t think the rider reps are doing our jobs. I am happy to help you any time I can all you have to do is ask. I will gladly help even though I am not a woman.

I think the main goal for the MRA right now is to make it through this year.

Getting new racers will help, getting more spectators will help.
The big problem has been that we have around 270 racers that have purchased MRA race licenses this year but we are averaging about 90 racers per weekend.

If you have ideas, questions or complaints please PM here or e mail me at hcr25@aol.com (hcr25@aol.com).

We are having an emergency board meeting to go over all these ideas this weekend.

mike MRA #25

64BonnieLass
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:33 AM
I just wish there wasn't so much of a disconnect between the two. I think both are good for each other in a variety of ways. It's really all about people helping each other.

I appreciate your post. I generalized, and should not have. Thank you for that Mike. :)

asp_125
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:37 AM
..The big problem has been that we have around 270 racers that have purchased MRA race licenses this year but we are averaging about 90 racers per weekend...

The problem then, as I see it, is not how to attract new members from CSC, but how to retain existing members or why they are staying away from the grid.

rforsythe
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:41 AM
The purpose of the covers is to prevent the pavement from grinding though the stock covers and leaving a bunch of oil on the track.

That's the purpose, but I still maintain it's false hope in 99% of the crashes that happen, and probably all of the crashes that a slower newbie will be involved in since their bike just isn't going to slide on the line that far.

I like them personally because covers like the Woodcrafts have replaceable sliders, small expendable items that leave the rest of the cover still usable. That IMO is a much better reason to have them.

hcr25
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:43 AM
Some good ideas Jim! The AMA did change the rule about case covers 2 years ago i think. They have been required since then. They had a couple of weekends where lowside crashes cuased leaks then mulitple bike crashes
Mike

From the AMA rule book, see leter G


1.6 Engines

a. Engine Displacement Measurement
i. Engine displacement shall be recorded in cubic centimeters.
ii. Displacement = B² (0.7854) HX; B= Cylinder bore; H= Stroke;
X= Number of cylinders (bore x bore x 0.7854 x stroke x
number of cylinders)
iii. If bore and stroke are in millimeters, divide end product by
1,000 to convert to cubic centimeters (cc).
b. Engine displacements are listed under various class requirements.
Displacement limits are absolute. There are no overbore
allowances.
c. Supercharging and turbocharging are not permitted.
d. Safety wire used to secure required items must be a minimum
diameter of .024 inches.
e. Coolant must not contain ethylene glycol.
f. All motorcycles must be driven by rear wheel transmitted power
only.
g. Original equipment engine side covers on certain models must be
replaced with covers or a case guard designed specifically to
improve resistance to breaking and grind-through in the event of a
crash. Replacement covers must be made of cast or machined
aluminum. Guards must be made of cast, stamped or machined
aluminum, or approved carbon fiber items listed on the eligible
equipment list. If a case guard is used it must mount over the
original case cover using a minimum of two of the original case.

hcr25
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:48 AM
The problem then, as I see it, is not how to attract new members from CSC, but how to retain existing members or why they are staying away from the grid.

That is exactly what we are trying to figure out. There are couple of threads on the MRA forum asking racers the reasons they are not racing.

Side note the SMRI in New Mexico is in the same situation and the grids for the Masters of the Mountain series in Utah is down 25% this year.
Mike

rforsythe
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:53 AM
The problem then, as I see it, is not how to attract new members from CSC, but how to retain existing members or why they are staying away from the grid.

I imagine it went something like this...
(before the class) "This looks fun... I think I'll take a class!"
(after the class) "That was awesome! It costs me HOW much just to play? Fuuuuuck..."

Bueller's personal resentments aside, he's right about hooking them with a sample of the Heroin. Drug dealers have figured out how to get broke people to pay for expensive shit for decades -- you let them try it and get hooked real cheap at first.

The requirements for slow n00b's to try it out need to be relaxed if the MRA ever hopes to hook them at this point, because the cost of going full out is way too high for someone if they just want to give it a shot and see if they like it. Not all n00b's will convert to full racers, but some will, and they will bring friends.

Yeah, it means some bikes we ourselves wouldn't race will actually turn laps on our sacred ground (gasp). It might just also mean that we still have sacred ground to race on in the first place.

rforsythe
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 10:00 AM
That is exactly what we are trying to figure out. There are couple of threads on the MRA forum asking racers the reasons they are not racing.

While that's good, I think that may be the wrong audience. Try asking new racers or wannabes why they aren't coming out to play.

The MRA has always been primarily focused on bringing back the existing members, which is good, but IMO not focused enough on recruiting new blood. That mentality is finally reaching critical mass (or lack thereof).

hcr25
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 10:14 AM
While that's good, I think that may be the wrong audience. Try asking new racers or wannabes why they aren't coming out to play.

The MRA has always been primarily focused on bringing back the existing members, which is good, but IMO not focused enough on recruiting new blood. That mentality is finally reaching critical mass (or lack thereof).

Not exactly true, we had over 70 people take the race school. A few were licenesed racers but most were not and they bought licenses but have not come out to race.

Its is up to all of the MRA members to help promote and build the club, get new members and try to bring back the old ones.

We are trying to do both, asking old and new. Many of the newly licensed racers this year have not done one race yet. We are looking at ways to get new racers on the track with minimum tech requirments and keeping the inital costs down. It is really much more then just that though. Right now im sure there are a few that would race this year if we can get this streetbike class going. Will be enough to save the season? Not on its own but i could help for sure.

Bueller
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 10:21 AM
I don't have resentments, I think business has been handled poorly, and I feel people should enter into this eyes wide open.

hcr25
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 10:29 AM
I don't have resentments, I think business has been handled poorly, and I feel people should enter into this eyes wide open.


I have known you for a few years and respect your opinion. I have been on the MRA board the past few years and rarely do i agree with all the decisions we make as a board. I do get to voice my opinion and I am happy to bring anyones to the board aswell.

Times change and so will the board members, all we have to do is voice our ideas, opinions and vote!

Like i said please PM me anything you want brought to the MRA boards attention and i will read it to them word for word.
Mike

eklew
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 11:12 AM
I believe that 303Cycles has a fully prepped race bike available for rent. Contact Konichd to find out for sure.

I don't know if he got a new one but the R6 that he had has been sold and is currently racing in the MRA.

rforsythe
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 11:12 AM
Not exactly true, we had over 70 people take the race school. A few were licenesed racers but most were not and they bought licenses but have not come out to race.

Then it stands to reason they're probably not surfing the MRA forums every day either, so you're still mainly just hitting the same old crowd there.

Now'd be a great time for rider reps to start calling each of them up personally and asking why they didn't come race. ;) Just a thought.

Matrix
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 11:14 AM
I was actually a little suprised that after I took the class last year no one ever reached out to me.



Then it stands to reason they're probably not surfing the MRA forums every day either, so you're still mainly just hitting the same old crowd there.

Now'd be a great time for rider reps to start calling each of them up personally and asking why they didn't come race. ;) Just a thought.

eklew
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 11:40 AM
I was actually a little suprised that after I took the class last year no one ever reached out to me.

Joe, I took the class back in 2006 and just recently started racing late last year and this year. I believe it is valid for 3 years before you need to take the class again. Back when I took the class, no one reached out to me to see why I was not going to race. I think the MRA was just interested to see new blood taking the class and maybe hoping to see me in the paddock sooner or later. I do think that it would be a good idea to see why the people that took the class are not racing. It could be as simple as bike prep, not thinking they are fast enough to race, etc... But at least the MRA would get an idea of what some of the hurdles are. If the people were willing to take the school in the first place, maybe they just need that extra push to get them on the grid. I know the MRA has an adopt a Novice program in where an expert racer mentors a novice with any questions about racing. Not only about bike prep but the routine to go through on a race weekend and even the etiquette to have around the paddock. Hell, I am no expert racer, but I am willing to help anyone that is on the fence about racing and assist them so that they feel comforatable being on the grid.

Joe, so I will make the first step and reach out to you now. Come on out and race at HPR and let me know if I can help you in any way to make the grid. I know you are fast enough, now especially since you have some new Klucky Pucks and all!!!!!

hcr25
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 12:12 PM
Then it stands to reason they're probably not surfing the MRA forums every day either, so you're still mainly just hitting the same old crowd there.

Now'd be a great time for rider reps to start calling each of them up personally and asking why they didn't come race. ;) Just a thought.


Very true. As i (http://about<b></b>:blank#) rider rep i (http://about<b></b>:blank#) have talked with a number of people that took the school. Most of them said they are not racing because of the economy, lack of $$$. The start of the year was tight and it continued to get worse. One even said it wasn't what he thought and he was scared to ride so close to others on the track. For a couple it was medical insurance more then anything else.

For the racers that have been racing before this year it seems for a lot of them priorities have changed. Buying houses, more time with family or new cheaper hobbies.

The MRA board is working on a mailer as well as a potential e mail blast questionnaire type thing.

Matrix
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Ohhh the peer pressure...I cant take it! ok I'm in. haha Bike is in the process of being saftey wired now and I should have the new plastics mounted up by end of the weekend. I will hit you up next week to check it out to see if everything looks good and if so then you will see me out there. If not I will make the next round for sure.
Somebody has to bring up the rear.



Joe, I took the class back in 2006 and just recently started racing late last year and this year. I believe it is valid for 3 years before you need to take the class again. Back when I took the class, no one reached out to me to see why I was not going to race. I think the MRA was just interested to see new blood taking the class and maybe hoping to see me in the paddock sooner or later. I do think that it would be a good idea to see why the people that took the class are not racing. It could be as simple as bike prep, not thinking they are fast enough to race, etc... But at least the MRA would get an idea of what some of the hurdles are. If the people were willing to take the school in the first place, maybe they just need that extra push to get them on the grid. I know the MRA has an adopt a Novice program in where an expert racer mentors a novice with any questions about racing. Not only about bike prep but the routine to go through on a race weekend and even the etiquette to have around the paddock. Hell, I am no expert racer, but I am willing to help anyone that is on the fence about racing and assist them so that they feel comforatable being on the grid.

Joe, so I will make the first step and reach out to you now. Come on out and race at HPR and let me know if I can help you in any way to make the grid. I know you are fast enough, now especially since you have some new Klucky Pucks and all!!!!!

eklew
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 04:15 PM
Ohhh the peer pressure...I cant take it! ok I'm in. haha Bike is in the process of being saftey wired now and I should have the new plastics mounted up by end of the weekend. I will hit you up next week to check it out to see if everything looks good and if so then you will see me out there. If not I will make the next round for sure.
Somebody has to bring up the rear.

That is awesome to hear!!!! Let me know when or if you need help and I will be there.

This offer obviously goes out to anyone that is on the fence about trying to get out there and race.

rybo
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 06:02 PM
While I will only be there on Saturday, anyone who wants to come hang out by my pits and see how the "old and slow" guys do it is welcome.

As always the cooler will be stocked with refreshments and there will be a couple of chairs around. The only condition is that if you hang in my pits, you gotta cheer for me and not those pesky EKLEW or RFORSYTHE characters.

:)

GNGSXR
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 06:35 PM
What is the point of this suggestion? I have friends that have one bike and want to get on the track, be involved with the club, but don't want to give up their ability to ride their streetbike on the street. These guys/gals also don't have the budget to race full tilt.


I started racing with only one bike and still only have one bike. my street bike became my race bike.
I also still continue to use my bike as a street bike. It takes about 20 minutes to swap plastics from race to street and it is not a PITA what so ever. It would be wise though to invest in some race plastics instead of destroying $1400+ stock plastics/lights. you can find some cheap $300 plastics on ebay and make those work/look awesome.

once your bike is setup racing really is not THAT expensive.
if the entry fees, license, AMA membership, MRA school etc is to much for you to spend then racing is not for you. stick to track days.
I love track days, but the thrill of being around other riders who are all fighting to cross the finish line first is a thrill i can't live without. yes it is exactly like heroine. . . i think.

I used to spend $50 on a set of tires that would last me one full practice day, 3 15 minute practice sessions Saturday morning, one sprint race on saturday, 2 practice sessions on Sunday, and one race on Sunday. Those were take off tires I was using and i was still able to do low minute forties at pueblo. I would then use those same tires on the street for about 500-800 miles until the next time i swapped on another set of take offs. you can get more than your moneys worth on a set of take offs.

case covers are essential. I have wrecked. . . i mean my bike has done a double front flip, bounced side to side and scrapped both sides all in the same mishap and the case covers held up great. the same case covers are still in good condition and im sure could take more of a beating, but i dont really want to test them out anymore. I would even get some case covers for a bike that i only rode on the street. Anything to protect my engine from all the idiots out on the streets today.
case covers look good on any bike. everyone else on the street will just be jealous of you if you rock some covers when youre out riding around town.
Most bikes only need a complete cover on the stator side and just a puck/slider/plate/thingy dealy attachment on the clutch side so covers may not be as pricey as you think.

safety wiring is not some black art that only experienced racers can do. Yes it is a pain and takes a lot of patience to do. If you don't have the patience to watch 5-15 drill bits break off in your face then there are other options. I don't have patience so i took all the bolts that needed to be drilled to a local machine shop. Cost me about $40 to have someone drill all the bolts i needed. i think it was like 20 bolts or something like that to be fully race legal.

you do not need all the trick stuff to go fast. the guy leading the Novice o/u and Amateur o/u classes is on a basically stock kawi 600.
focus on improving your skills before pissing away your money on parts.

Bashed
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 06:48 PM
What class(es) ya racing Bash?


Meat Grinder aka MW endurance.
I will see you on the back row my friend!


No sh*t, it's called the meat grinder?
Cr*p, I just am starting to feel better
from my last/latest surgery.
Oh well, it's well worth the rush.
See you'all on saturday!

Bash

MRA 32
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:08 PM
Sorry for the confusion on the case covers, to my knowledge the inline 4's (CBR,GSXR,ZX, and YZF) have case armor available and should be used. I am not trying to pick on anybody.

Here is why I posted this thread: When I took the race school 7 years ago I did it on a liter bike. I did NOT want to race it nor would it have done me any good in my development as a racer. I have always had a love affair with MOTO GP and therefore I have and always will race GP bikes. I was not able to buy a GP bike at the time I took the school so I sat out most of the season. Near the end of the season an RS 125 became available and I purchased it. I only raced the final weekend at SCR. But if there had been a streetbike class....I could have still gone to the track, got some racing done on my streetbike, and not sit out most of the season.

Also

I ride with a bunch of long time friends in the Greeley area. These guys bought there street bikes to be just that, streetbikes. But all have interest in hanging out with me at the races and want to do some racing. None of them want to fully commit their streetbike to the track and I don't blame them. A streetbike class would be great to get them involved in a cheaper form of racing. Plus none of my riding buddies have the budget to be full tilt racers. I want to offer this class with no strings attached, just come and race.

I hope this makes sense what I am about to say: But supersport racing is supposed to be cheaper than superbike classes. But really what is different is DOT's and slicks. To you CSC members this may not mean much to you being that most of you do not race and know our rulebook inside and out. The MRA ALWAYS has exhausting discussions at the rule change meetings about the supersport classes. The new streetbike class could or could not be a prelude to a true production class race bike class. By this I mean the bike must race truly showroom stock no powercommanders, kit brakes or wheels, no after market exhaust, just a true showroom stock bike. I am probably getting ahead of myself and I am expressing my opinion.

I want everyone to know that I am trying to bridge any kind of gap that exists between the CSC and the MRA. I have not attacked anyone here nor have I been rude in person to anybody in this club. I have met you Terri at the Moto Haus and I think you are a great person from my first impression. Terri if you have any questions about anything involved with the MRA swing into my pits I am number 927. I have and always will be open to help anyone with racing (at least what I am capable of). I have had nothing but a wonderful time racing in the MRA and I have done so on a small budget.

I did not post this thread so that I can read how bad the MRA is in some peoples eyes. Nor do I have any ill feelings towards the CSC.

I welcome anyone to stop in at my pits. I race a yellow Honda RSF 450 and have a giant Interstate Honda sticker on my trailer.

I will use the poll as additional info at our rule change meeting to help or not help with creation of a new class for 2010.

Thanks, Jeff Winter MRA # 927

eklew
Thu Jul 16th, 2009, 09:51 PM
While I will only be there on Saturday, anyone who wants to come hang out by my pits and see how the "old and slow" guys do it is welcome.

As always the cooler will be stocked with refreshments and there will be a couple of chairs around. The only condition is that if you hang in my pits, you gotta cheer for me and not those pesky EKLEW or RFORSYTHE characters.

:)

Blasphemy!!!!:cry:

nwatkins
Fri Jul 17th, 2009, 09:54 AM
My first piece of racing crack was given to me in New Mexico. I took a class and with that class came one race in their beginner class. The bike prep on that race was minimmal, I used street body work, stock case covers, and I safty wired the oil, and drained the coolant. The beginner class was free with the class. That race was a lot of fun, and the rules were if you finished in the top two of that class you were no longer a beginner. I finished second and I was kicked out of the class. I even got a plaque for 2nd place in the beginner class.

Here is my question having to do with bike prep. When was the last time a track got oiled by a broken case cover? I am sure it does happen, but if we do this race and the track does get oiled, I volunteer to help clean it up. Since it will be at the end of the day on Saturday we can get it clean. Lets make it easy, and have track day prep.

MRA 32
Sun Jul 19th, 2009, 12:33 PM
Here is an example of why we require case covers: Racer Jim Bob comes over from Utah to race with us, he has a minimum of 1k invested in entry fees, travel, hotel, tires, fuel, and machinery. On Saturday afternoon a bike with unprotected cases crashes and oils the track and despite our best efforts to clean the track Saturday evening our Sunday schedule is shortened or worse cancelled (this has actually happened). Is it fair to the guys who travel long distances to race with us to cancel the whole weekend or even maybe cancel a few races? Granted a fully prepped bike could have this same effect BUT there was some effort to stop it ahead.

Or

You are right behind the incident and don't have time to react to spilled oil on the track and you go down as well. Is it fair to you! Are you the paying rider going to be upset that your bike is a mess in the weeds because we didn't enforce rules that could have protected you? Being on the track is dangerous enough, lets not add to it.

How many street bikes have an after market slip on exhaust? How many people are upset about spending $100-$400 for case covers that have a $600 aftermarket exhaust on their bike?

I will propose the rule without case guards.....but I know the case guards will have to be added in order for the class to pass.

Bashed
Sun Jul 19th, 2009, 02:03 PM
This offer obviously goes out to anyone that is on the fence about trying to get out there and race.


Elden, I will be there on Saturday to race in the "meatgrinder",
as Applehans put it middleweight solo endurance.
I will need the following help to enhance my experiance.
First off I need you to do all my bike prep
Then I will need you to go get all my paperwork sorted
this might include you paying for my entries
Then after that I will need new tires payed for and installed
Next I guess will be the practice sessions, showing me all the secert lines and overtaking spots so I will know where to look for others stuffing me.
After practince if I dont throw myself in the asphalt and dirt yet I will need some debriefing on my posture and lack of skill.
Maybe a massage before the race to help be relaxed when I hit the ground,
Being tense might make be more suseptible to breaking something.
Then the race, I will need you to tell me where to grid and check my bike over once more, refueling with your special race gas.
After that I will expect you to pack all my stuff up and drive me home, I like to take a nap in the truck.
Unload all my stuff at home and then fix me a nice steak dinner.
That should be enough for my first day racing, the following races I would expect more of you as you will be more in tune with my individual needs by then.
Thanks for you invitation to do all of this for me, your the best.

Bash
MRA #112

nwatkins
Sun Jul 19th, 2009, 03:03 PM
Elden, I will be there on Saturday to race in the "meatgrinder",
as Applehans put it middleweight solo endurance.
I will need the following help to enhance my experiance.
First off I need you to do all my bike prep
Then I will need you to go get all my paperwork sorted
this might include you paying for my entries
Then after that I will need new tires payed for and installed
Next I guess will be the practice sessions, showing me all the secert lines and overtaking spots so I will know where to look for others stuffing me.
After practince if I dont throw myself in the asphalt and dirt yet I will need some debriefing on my posture and lack of skill.
Maybe a massage before the race to help be relaxed when I hit the ground,
Being tense might make be more suseptible to breaking something.
Then the race, I will need you to tell me where to grid and check my bike over once more, refueling with your special race gas.
After that I will expect you to pack all my stuff up and drive me home, I like to take a nap in the truck.
Unload all my stuff at home and then fix me a nice steak dinner.
That should be enough for my first day racing, the following races I would expect more of you as you will be more in tune with my individual needs by then.
Thanks for you invitation to do all of this for me, your the best.

Bash
MRA #112


so that is what it is like to be a factory racer. Sign me up!

nwatkins
Sun Jul 19th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Here is an example of why we require case covers: Racer Jim Bob comes over from Utah to race with us, he has a minimum of 1k invested in entry fees, travel, hotel, tires, fuel, and machinery. On Saturday afternoon a bike with unprotected cases crashes and oils the track and despite our best efforts to clean the track Saturday evening our Sunday schedule is shortened or worse cancelled (this has actually happened). Is it fair to the guys who travel long distances to race with us to cancel the whole weekend or even maybe cancel a few races? Granted a fully prepped bike could have this same effect BUT there was some effort to stop it ahead.

Or

You are right behind the incident and don't have time to react to spilled oil on the track and you go down as well. Is it fair to you! Are you the paying rider going to be upset that your bike is a mess in the weeds because we didn't enforce rules that could have protected you? Being on the track is dangerous enough, lets not add to it.

How many street bikes have an after market slip on exhaust? How many people are upset about spending $100-$400 for case covers that have a $600 aftermarket exhaust on their bike?

I will propose the rule without case guards.....but I know the case guards will have to be added in order for the class to pass.

I was just thinking, make it as easy as possible for people to get their first piece of crack and watch how quick their bikes get preppred correctly for the next weekend.

If it raises the participant count in the club, I am willing to clean the track up. For people in that race, that is a risk. I don't like it either, but it is bettern then having to spend all my money travelling to Miller or down to ASMI to race.

eklew
Sun Jul 19th, 2009, 05:43 PM
Elden, I will be there on Saturday to race in the "meatgrinder",
as Applehans put it middleweight solo endurance.
I will need the following help to enhance my experiance.
First off I need you to do all my bike prep
Then I will need you to go get all my paperwork sorted
this might include you paying for my entries
Then after that I will need new tires payed for and installed
Next I guess will be the practice sessions, showing me all the secert lines and overtaking spots so I will know where to look for others stuffing me.
After practince if I dont throw myself in the asphalt and dirt yet I will need some debriefing on my posture and lack of skill.
Maybe a massage before the race to help be relaxed when I hit the ground,
Being tense might make be more suseptible to breaking something.
Then the race, I will need you to tell me where to grid and check my bike over once more, refueling with your special race gas.
After that I will expect you to pack all my stuff up and drive me home, I like to take a nap in the truck.
Unload all my stuff at home and then fix me a nice steak dinner.
That should be enough for my first day racing, the following races I would expect more of you as you will be more in tune with my individual needs by then.
Thanks for you invitation to do all of this for me, your the best.

Bash
MRA #112

DUDE!!!! You must have hit your head way too hard on your last crash!!! Seriously though, it is going to be awesome to have you on the grid:)

The GECCO
Sun Jul 19th, 2009, 05:58 PM
Terrific, now you have a track but the MRA has been in a tailspin for years now under his admin. Maybe he should have paid more attention to business of the MRA and not alienating current members and not setting up his own employment future. the MRA has been in financial trouble since way before this economic downturn. The failure of the MRA can only rest on the leadership. I like most of the Board members but they have failed.


So, I have no idea what I've done to Mr Bueller, and frankly, I have much more important things to worry about, but I feel this BS needs a response.

When I was elected President of the MRA 6 years ago it was literally broke as the previous president had embezzled 10's of thousands of dollars and is now a fugitive from a felony warrant. Since then, we have done well enough to buy a new equipment truck, two ATV's, two dirtbikes, trailers for the airfence, a new broadcasting system, a transponder system....I could keep going, but the point has been made.

The MRA treasury was also able to donate $50,000 directly to HPR, something that all five CAMA clubs committed to doing.

I would hardly consider that a tailspin.

As for setting up my own future employment - first, I'm sorry you see it as a bad thing that I donated hundreds of hours of my personal time and literally thousands of dollars in fuel and other expenses (yes, un-reimbursed) in order to see that a new track was built in Colorado. Given the current financial climate you can imagine the "tailspin" ALL of the Colorado clubs would be in if we didn't have a new track to draw in participants. Second - last fall when the CAMA board realized that the track was going to be reality there was one board member who was quite adamant that he wanted me to be the manager. I said "no". I had a good job, a house and a great social life in Fort Collins. So, we searched and ended up hiring someone. He started January 1st and by the middle of March we realized he wasn't the guy. The problem was that it was two weeks till opening day and we had no one to replace him and take over. I stepped up. I quit a job I had held for over ten years, bought a new 5th wheel trailer and moved to the track to take over. I'm still making payments on my house, even though I haven't slept there since March 30, simply because I haven't had any time to finish moving out and prepping it to go on the market. Since I took a rather large pay cut to do this I can't buy another house until that one sells, which means I have no choice right now but to live at the track. It isn't all bad, don't get me wrong, but as a single guy you can imagine what it's done to my social life. This wasn't my plan, so don't make it out like I set everything up so I could run HPR and ignored everything else in the process.

supermoto
Wed Jul 22nd, 2009, 02:09 PM
This sounds great for all those that have to keep their bike set up for a commuter bike as well. The safety issues must be addressed with taping the glass really well and removing all ANTI FREEZE. Good tires and brakes are a must. Safety wire is of course for everyones safety---

Coming up Aug 3rd at High Plains Raceway is an open track day. A great way to get started on your street bike. We willl be there for orientation and instruction of new riders. The introduction is $50.00 and is very low key. We'll cover safety issues, track rules, review the track map with you, discuss track riding skills and help other riders to further develop the skills they already have.

We want to get more people out to the track share in the passion. We will work on proper body position and picking the best lines, we will help you set up your bikes suspension if necessary.

Former AMA Pro and MRA racer, is MSF and TOTAL CONTROL Instructor certified. He is here for group track sessions or one on one training Please ask him to help, he loves this stuff.

Contact:
Ty Piz --supermoto-- ty_piz@hotmail.com --303 349 7177

or visit the web site www.highplainsraceway.com (http://www.highplainsraceway.com) for more information, for a track map and take a track ride with the onboard camera

This day is going to be a hoot!

hcr25
Wed Jul 22nd, 2009, 04:04 PM
I have been racing in the MRA for 14 years now. Ty Piz is one of the reasons I made it so long. Early in my racing he help me numerous times at the track. He has a wealth of knowledge and is a great teacher.

Mike Applehans #25