Typical government shenanigans

[Shea]

Trying to sneak one past us. Private medical insurance will be illegal under the new government health care fiasco...

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=332548165656854

And raise costs, cost more then planned and be generally a crap idea...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/16/house-dems-votes-health/

But you know, we have to do it or the sky will fall, old people will starve, your sister die a horrific death and your dog will pee on your carpet...

[dirkterrell]

What?? You mean they lied to us?!?!?

Dirk

[64BonnieLass]

Hahaha, Shea, everytime I see this commercial I think of you.

I have ordered this for you for Christmas. You are getting ready to be a very lucky boy in a few months.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/Terri_Romaneschi/Misc/happy-chia-obama-290_buynow.png

[Shea]

lol thanks Terry. Do they make a Bush one too? I could have retarded book ends! :)

[64BonnieLass]

Oh gosh, I can't even believe it....Dang Shea, your holidays are gonna rock!!! :lol:

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/Terri_Romaneschi/Misc/chia-bush.jpg

[dapper]

Here's another one...
We could be like the energizer bunny on this topic!
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i252/dapperr/04ProjectBioShield.jpg

Nothing can pucker someone up like the herding of people for unapproved IND by fear based laws.

Anyone want to volunteer to be quarantined? :lol:

[dirkterrell]

Man, the CSC is rocking today. We've got Chia Prez's and Ninja Chihuahuas. :)

Dirk

[Mental]

I have goverment run health insurance.....










...you should all cry

[DFab]

Trying to sneak one past us. Private medical insurance will be illegal under the new government health care fiasco...

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=332548165656854

And raise costs, cost more then planned and be generally a crap idea...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/16/house-dems-votes-health/

But you know, we have to do it or the sky will fall, old people will starve, your sister die a horrific death and your dog will pee on your carpet...

Here the full text from the section that ibd is talking about:
1 SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT
2 COVERAGE.
3 (a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COV4
ERAGE DEFINED.—Subject to the succeeding provisions of
5 this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable cov6
erage under this division, the term ‘‘grandfathered health
7 insurance coverage’’ means individual health insurance
8 coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the
9 first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:
10 (1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT.—
11 (A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in
12 this paragraph, the individual health insurance
13 issuer offering such coverage does not enroll
14 any individual in such coverage if the first ef15
fective date of coverage is on or after the first
16 day of Y1.

This, obviously does not outlaw private insurance. It say's you can't grandfather a plan, and then sell it to new customers.

[zetaetatheta]

I have goverment run health insurance.....

Me too and I am very happy with it. Cost me about $450 per year for family of four.








...you should all cry

Me too and I am very happy with it. Cost me about $450 per year for family of four.

[dirkterrell]

Me too and I am very happy with it. Cost me about $450 per year for family of four.

Heavily subsidized, I'm sure. :)

Dirk

[zetaetatheta]

Heavily subsidized, I'm sure. :)

Dirk

Yes I'm sure, retired military, but it seems very efficient (has not always been the case) and they don't keep bringing me back for social visits to finance a vacation. All medicine is subsidized as we the tax payer pay for the cut finger at the emergency room for the uninsured.
There is a reason insurance companies have enormous profits and competition scares the hell out of them. They have a monopoly on health care and monopolies are dangerous (IMHO).

[chanke4252]

This is the dumbest thing ever. Sure, offer a government sponsored medical plan for those with low incomes so they can stop driving up everyone else's cost, but this is absolutely stupid.

[JustSomeDude]

Wheeeee....

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=328

[Shea]

This, obviously does not outlaw private insurance. It say's you can't grandfather a plan, and then sell it to new customers.

An issuer cannot sell a plan that was in existence prior to the law thus making it illegal. Why does the government need to outlaw this? Why do they need to quell private competition to their plan?

[TFOGGuys]

Why does the government need to outlaw this? Why do they need to quell private competition to their plan?

So that they can compel participation. If they allow people to opt out, then how will they finance it so that those that can't afford it are covered as well as those that can?

[Shea]

Wheeeee....

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=328

"We need to spend more money to keep from going bankrupt" - Joe Biden

The best and the brightest, it's a return of camelot.

Of course let us completely overlook they great profits Goldman Sachs just made thanks to their friends (and former employees) Paulson, Geithner, et al

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/02/government-sachs-goldmans_n_210561.html

Government bought and paid for...only costs you $980k in donations to Obama

But wait...there's more...

CIT Group, a big lender to small business (you know that crap that employs most Americans) was told to piss off when it went to the government for a bailout. Now you're probably saying "But Shea, I thought you were against all bailouts???" and you would be correct. However, in this case, CIT's chief rival in the small business loan department is....wait for it...GE. GE went to the government for a bailout and got it even though CIT was a better deal. Favoritism? YOU BET YOUR ASS...once again bought and paid for...


http://wallstreetpit.com/8325-is-there-a-difference-between-ge-financial-arm-and-cit

[DFab]

An issuer cannot sell a plan that was in existence prior to the law thus making it illegal. Why does the government need to outlaw this? Why do they need to quell private competition to their plan?

It makes it illegal for an insurance company to grandfather a plan, which exempts it from new regulations contained in the bill, and then continue to sell it to new customers.

The insurance companies will have to come up with updated plans, that do comply with the new regulations, and sell those. Private insurance will still be legal.

All regulation would be pretty worthless if you allow people to "grandfather" whatever they were doing before and never comply with the new rules.

[Shea]

It makes it illegal for an insurance company to grandfather a plan, which exempts it from new regulations contained in the bill, and then continue to sell it to new customers.

The insurance companies will have to come up with updated plans, that do comply with the new regulations, and sell those. Private insurance will still be legal.

All regulation would be pretty worthless if you allow people to "grandfather" whatever they were doing before and never comply with the new rules.

So you can have insurance under the new "plan", but when it goes into effect the "old" plans can't add people...check.
Costs will SKYROCKET because of all the new rules put in place...check.
Government plan will be cheaper because it's sucking taxpayer money so everyone will dump their private plans and join the government program...check
Government eventual will run all health care insurance...check

You're right it's much more insidious then I thought before. Thanks for clarifying.

[dapper]

Kindly take into consideration the media's influence in our culture.

swine-flu-alert-news-death-ratio-tuberculosis (http://www.gapminder.org/videos/swine-flu-alert-news-death-ratio-tuberculosis/)

The gov't uses the media.
TV's, radios, news stands, internet are all effective ways to get the 'good word' out to the elpeehs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeple). ;)

[DFab]

So you can have insurance under the new "plan", but when it goes into effect the "old" plans can't add people...check.

If you have a grandfathered plan, you can still add dependents.


Costs will SKYROCKET because of all the new rules put in place...check. We'll see, if it passes, which is still a big if. Costs have been increasing at an unsustainable rate anyways. I think a good way to control costs is to have private insurers compete with a cheaper gov plan. Also we need to identify best practices in health care and get doctors and hospitals to follow them, reducing unnecessary tests, treatments and procedures. There's a good New Yorker article that argues that finding and following best practices is a whole lot more important than who's paying.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande

Honest Question: Is current heath care spending and the rate it's increasing unsustainable? And if so how do we lower it?


Government plan will be cheaper because it's sucking taxpayer money so everyone will dump their private plans and join the government program...checkI could be wrong, but I don't believe the public plan is allowed to use taxpayer money, only the premiums paid into it. I've got the pdf, I'll have a look.

Maybe the public plan will be cheaper due to lower overhead (4% vs 20%), not having shareholders to pay, and being able to negotiate low prices
for drugs and services with it's large number of participants.


Government eventual will run all health care insurance...checkHopefully. I think there would still be a market for secondary insurance.


You're right it's much more insidious then I thought before. Thanks for clarifying.You're welcome.

[Wintermute]

Shorter GOP healthcare position: Fuck people with no healthcare. Let 'em die for all we give a shit.

(Until there's a serious plan from the Republicans, that sums up their position on healthcare. Especially their current "Obstruct and hope for nothing" game plan. Real surprise the GOP is slightly more popular than genital herpes these days.)

[THE3BS]

So the DMV which handles drivers licenses. A pretty simple thing. The Social Security off. A pretty simple thing.

RUN BY THE GOVERMENT.

Do you like standing in line at either place?

"I've been here all day and I'm just trying to change the last name on my license.". "I've been here all day and I just want to change my mailing address....."

Again all run by the government.


"I just got shot in leg by a gun toting right wing radical!". "I'm sorry sir but you'll have to wait your turn in line!".

Government run healthcare.......

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Hahaha, Shea, everytime I see this commercial I think of you.

I have ordered this for you for Christmas. You are getting ready to be a very lucky boy in a few months.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/Terri_Romaneschi/Misc/happy-chia-obama-290_buynow.png
Hah! Gotta get me one of those!

[dirkterrell]

Editorial piece this morning from Krauthammer on the subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/23/AR2009072302723.html

Dirk

[Devaclis]

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before,
but had once failed an entire class.

--------------------------------------------

That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.


The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".


All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.


After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.


As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D!
No one was happy.


When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.


All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.


Could not be any simpler than that.

[JustSomeDude]

Shorter GOP healthcare position: Fuck people with no healthcare. Let 'em die for all we give a shit.

(Until there's a serious plan from the Republicans, that sums up their position on healthcare. Especially their current "Obstruct and hope for nothing" game plan. Real surprise the GOP is slightly more popular than genital herpes these days.)

There have been great plans pursued over the years by many conservatives, but they are mocked, especially by people like yourself, as "do nothing" plans.

Unfortunately, the current system is rigged against the buyer. You don't see the real price of health care, because the costs are based on how much money doctors and hospitals think they can reasonably obtain from insurance companies... not from you. If the health care system was market based, and you were able to shop around for the care you needed - and paid for directly on an as-needed basis - you would pay FAR less than what your insurance company pays now for a typical doctor visit.

By eliminating insurance companies from "typical" doctor visits (annual checkup, flu, cough, etc.), and placing doctors in a competitive environment to battle for patients' dollars, their fees would drop dramatically. Granted, you would still likely pay $80-$100 for a checkup, but it's less than the $300-$500 your doctor now charges your insurance company. Additionally, knowing they have to pay cash people would become far more responsible in the use of their family doctor. So as people limit their "need" to see their doctors (using them only when necessary), demand would drop greatly, supply would increase (as there would be too many doctors with less patients), and doctor fees would diminish drastically.

Of course, insurance would still be required for catastrophic events and long term care (cancer, etc.), but if you could choose the individual coverages you desire, instead of blanket plans provided by an employer or the federal gov't, you would be able to negotiate a specific catastrophic plan to fit your needs. This would provide a much more competitive marketplace that would require insurance companies to provide competitive policies, further lowering prices.

However, since the left chooses to demand "coverage for all" we will never see the true costs of health care. It will only continue to be a system rigged against the buyer, while the gov't, insurers, and doctors reap the benefits. Until health care is put into a competitive market where consumers can directly shop around - prices will only continue to rise.

A market based system is the only way to curb costs, and get doctors' fees, and catastrophic insurance coverage costs, under control.

[Wintermute]

WTF? Drop coverage for "typical" preventative care so even people with insurance self-ration? Is that what passes for a "great plan" among conservatives? Has anyone on the right ever heard the saying "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"?

One of the main reasons our system sucks so bad is that people without insurance can't afford preventative care, let conditions worsen, and then go into the emergency room with an extremely expensive, full-blown disease that could have been avoided. Is the conservative movement so willfully ignorant and disbelieving of reality that they actually peddle this self-rationing preventative care horse shit?

As for "do-nothing" one of the GOP Congressional leaders just said the other day that the GOP isn't going to put out their own plan, just obstruct Obama's. That's pretty much the epitome of "do nothing". Add it in with the "Obama's Waterloo" gaffe showing that the GOP cares more about politics than the American people.

The people have noticed and have handed them their asses in 2 straight cycles. Unless the GOP becomes something other than the party of only pissed-off white guys, the slide to oblivion will continue.

The GOP is happy to have us bring up the rear while countries like France take the lead in mixed public/private universal health care. To Republicans it's fine for us to lose this race.

[dirkterrell]

One of the main reasons our system sucks so bad is that people without insurance can't afford preventative care, let conditions worsen, and then go into the emergency room with an extremely expensive, full-blown disease that could have been avoided. Is the conservative movement so willfully ignorant and disbelieving of reality that they actually peddle this self-rationing preventative care horse shit?


http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/Story?id=3602579&page=1

Dirk

[= Buckeye Jess =]

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

And that is all I have to say on the damn subject anymore.

[Shea]

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/Story?id=3602579&page=1

Dirk

Dirk my friend, we can't have those. HSA's put the power in the hands of the people rather then the government (who, don't you know, is much wiser then you could ever be), therefore we need to eliminate them as soon as possible. /sarcasm

Wintermute, c'mon man. You keep preaching the "government is the only source of good and light in the world" a little too much. Can you conceive of a world where the individual is actually empowered to take care of their own lives free of government interference, control and manipulation?

I know you have nothing but disdain for the GOP (the numerous racist/classist remarks are pretty telling) and conservatives in general; but I recall just a few threads ago how critical you were of "these political threads". If you want to raise the debate it starts with you sir.

[Wintermute]

How will poor people put money into a HSA Dirk? They don't have any extra money, that's why they're poor. The poor are the crux of this debate, they're the ones who are suffering in our "I got mine, you can fuck off and die" system.

[whitebrad]

i like cake

[Wintermute]

[snip]
Wintermute, c'mon man. You keep preaching the "government is the only source of good and light in the world" a little too much. Can you conceive of a world where the individual is actually empowered to take care of their own lives free of government interference, control and manipulation?

I know you have nothing but disdain for the GOP (the numerous racist/classist remarks are pretty telling) and conservatives in general; but I recall just a few threads ago how critical you were of "these political threads". If you want to raise the debate it starts with you sir.

Shea, I can always count on you to take anything I say and use it as the basis for an extended whine about how the ole' gov't boogeyman is comin to get ya. Well done. You're a true master of the strawman, with a sub-specialization in putting words in other people's mouths.

As for the GOP, the majority of Americans join me in that disdain. That's not my problem, that's your party's problem. But I'm racist? Now you're talking out of your ass.

[dirkterrell]

How will poor people put money into a HSA Dirk? They don't have any extra money, that's why they're poor.

Really? You're talking to someone who is from an extended family of poor people. I was in the same boat myself for years. I made different decisions about how I spent my money compared to many family members. I climbed out of it. Many of my relatives did not. So, let's not just absolve "poor people" of all responsibility when it comes to their financial situation.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Medicaid supposed to solve the problem of medical care for the poor? I guess that's not working out so well?

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

Unless the GOP becomes something other than the party of only pissed-off white guys, the slide to oblivion will continue.




But I'm racist? Now you're talking out of your ass.

Dirk

[Wintermute]

Good for you Dirk. We weren't exactly swimming in money on our nearly-bankrupt family farm when I was growing up either. But data isn't the plural of anecdote.

In reality, the last couple of decades have seen an explosion of structurally "working poor" who usually don't qualify for Medicaid. (Think of all the people who have been stranded in small factory towns across the country when the only game in town shuttered and they've had to take low-paying jobs to survive.) These are the people the S-Chip insurance program target, which is good, but the parents need healthcare also.

[Wintermute]

Calling the GOP white is racist? Thanks for the laugh.

Somebody needs to alert Stephen Colbert that reality not only has a well-known liberal bias but now has well-known racial bias.

[dirkterrell]

In reality, the last couple of decades have seen an explosion of structurally "working poor" who usually don't qualify for Medicaid.

What fraction of the uninsured are these?

Dirk

[Wintermute]

I don't know the exact numbers Dirk. It would probably be safe to say some multiple of the number of households covered under SCHIP (Since each kid has 2 parents, but some households would be single-parent.)

(Gotta go for a bit, be back later.)