So ya miss the national 55mph limit?

[BigE]

Just read this. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090728/hl_nm/us_speed_limit

Safety Nazi's are going to be aligning with the Eco-nazis:banghead:

[Tipys]

Ya higher speeds plus moron doing 35 mph in the left lane. Its not the higher speeds its the moron thats driving 10 under.

[BigE]

They ought to look at the increase in cell phone usage and if there was a "distraction" to the driver. :rolleyes:

[#1Townie]

hell yeah i cant wait to drive even slower!!!!!!!!!

[Valguard]

What a BS study. There are so many other factors involved that a real statistical study would take tons of research/money/time that no one has. AND even if someone did, the alpha or beta (stupid math) would be so huge it would never be statistically significant.

Just because the sun rises when you get out of bed, doesn't mean you make it happen.

[Mental]

More speed cameras could also help make roads safer, Friedman added. These are automated systems that take photos of speeders and their license plates, and then send the offender a ticket in the mail.
"You don't have the fun of having a police officer pull you over and take your license," Friedman said. Nevertheless, he added, "these systems are very effective for reducing and controlling systematic speeding."

That scares me more than the speed limit. They are all over Europe, Japan and here in Arizona.

[whitebrad]

I feel safer already... c'mon surveilance !

[BigE]

That scares me more than the speed limit. They are all over Europe, Japan and here in Arizona.


+1 on that!

[Nerves]

They ought to look at the increase in cell phone usage and if there was a "distraction" to the driver. :rolleyes:

+1

Did they consider the fact that cell phones have gone from, "Hay cool, is that a cell phone? You lucky rich bastard." to "Hang up and Drive" bumper stickers. And I wonder if the amount of vehicles on the road has increased? If they lower it back down to 55, I bet the amount of road rage incidents will sky rocket.

[Zach929rr]

I would prefer photo cameras to officers out there radaring. Cameras are wayyy easier to beat. :)

[whitebrad]

I would prefer photo cameras to officers out there radaring. Cameras are wayyy easier to beat. :)

okay, since i have no idea how, i am compelled to ask... and i do so knowing that this may start a shitstorm, but oh well...

so how you beat a radar camera thing?

[Devaclis]

While on a bike, with a lid and gear, they cannot positively prove you were the one who was speeding.

[mtnairlover]

Just to throw a monkey wrench in all this bitchin....but did it occur to anyone that it's the fact that the impact at higher speeds that kills? I mean, if you're going slower, there's less of a chance to completely mutilate a car as compared to 20 miles faster, etc. Maybe that's what the "studiers" are trying to get across? Anyway, I oughta know what it's like to crash at 25, as compared to what happens when you crash at 35 miles per hour (motorcycle-wise).

Ok, back to your bitchin...

[Snowman]

I personally think it’s time to get the human driver out of the equation. If all cars drove themselves, you could travel safely at any speed, there would be no need to traffic lights, and people could do any5thing they wished without becoming a hazard to over vehicles.

[TFOGGuys]

I personally think it’s time to get the human driver out of the equation. If all cars drove themselves, you could travel safely at any speed, there would be no need to traffic lights, and people could do any5thing they wished without becoming a hazard to over vehicles.

You really want computers controlling our cars? That would bring a whole new meaning to "Blue Screen of Death" :shocked:

http://www.freakingnews.com/Pictures/2/Microsoft-Cars.jpg

[Mental]

While on a bike, with a lid and gear, they cannot positively prove you were the one who was speeding.

Yeah, the courts disagree with you. You can fight it, but the legal precedent has been set already.

From http://www.motorists.org/photoenforce/home/arizona-freeway-speed-cameras/


The Judges
"If you don't like photo-radar, don't speed." This is advice 60-year-old Lydia D'Agosto used to give photo-radar complainers. Then Scottsdale Judge Herbert Pierpan suspended D'Agosto's license even though she was never photographed speeding.
D'Agosto appeared in court to prove she was not the 35-year-old, black-haired driver of a Mini Cooper cited for speeding. D'Agosto is 60, has curly, light hair and drives a van. She did not own the speeding vehicle and was clearly not the driver.
D'Agosto's daughter, who has a different legal name, had registered the car at her mother's address. As a result, the 60-year-old grandmother's license was suspended after 40 years of driving without a single traffic infraction.
During her trial, Judge Pierpan pushed D'Agosto's default license suspension through even though she was physically present and clearly not the driver. D'Agosto says the Scottsdale judge ignored the facts altogether. The superior court agreed with her appeal, reversing all judgments, fines and defaults, but D'Agosto's justice came at a cost of $1,000 paid to a traffic attorney and hundreds more in court fees.

Opposition is mounting, but the legal precedent so far is "guilty until proven innocent," and getting your liscence yanked without notification. A tinted shield won't get buy in on that system.

Once the "we need to protect the innocent" chants start, it will just like the absolutely moronic idea of federalizing the airport screeners. It will take a life of its own, reason will be shouted down and when broke cities and states see the huge finiancail oppurtunity these cameras present, we're doomed. Bear in mind, the compnay that makes these has a very slick lobby, deep pockets and excellent marketing skill.

I'll take a flesh and blood LEO over a camera every single time. As they are not motivated by personal profit (even if their departments are put under pressure by politicians) there is a relationship and a chance for a reduced or warning ticket. Even if their isn't, I know I got the ticket and I don't have to wait on a very ineffecient buracracy overwhelmed with upwards of 3,000 ticketts a day to let me know I should probably check all my turn signal bulbs before I get stopped and locked up.

In the current state of many goverment finiancal crisis', this is a huge danger to personal freedom, civil liberties and another step closer for a goverment that is already way too involved in my life.

Given the chance for more lawyers fee's, what side of the aurgument do you think the trail attourney's will come down on?

[gtn]

I personally think it’s time to get the human driver out of the equation. If all cars drove themselves, you could travel safely at any speed, there would be no need to traffic lights, and people could do any5thing they wished without becoming a hazard to over vehicles.

No thank you. I like to drive. If that's the "answer" then it needs to be via automated mass transportation. I don't want Johnny 5 driving my truck.

One other thing... driving at 55 makes me sleepy. It's hypnotic. I like 75 on the open highway stepping down to 55 in town.

[MetaLord 9]

Hold on. I'm not buying these statistics. Sure the year over year has increased, but so has the volume of drivers & people on the roads! Did anyone think to compare the increase in drivers and vehicles on the road to the numbers a decade ago? Sure they're comparing the year over year crash stats, but has the percentage of crashes to drivers/vehicles increased too? If so, enough to justify a sweeping, nationwide kneejerk??? Also, those crash numbers are soft. How many of those crashes were drunk driving, inclement weather, or sub-speed limit related? These crashes need to be removed from the equation since they bare no relevancy to the speed limit question. Show me the stats for the fatalaties for folks going 65-75 (average speed limit & what I'm assuming is the average speeder's acceptable risk) versus the fatalaties for those going 55-65 back in the days of a national speed limit. Show me proof that a change is required, not just a few poorly cobbled together numbers that bare no real relation to the issue at hand.

[sugarrey]

While on a bike, with a lid and gear, they cannot positively prove you were the one who was speeding.

Well if its your plates, your bike, and you didnt report it stolen you are responsible as the owner for the infraction, at least that is what they are telling me. My business partner used to use my Jeep for transporting our product back and forth from Kansas and he used to go thru some toll on 470 without paying (said he was used to having the transponder). I, as the vehicle owner, am getting sued for $470 dollars in tolls and fines and I wasn't even in the car. Seems like bullshit to me, but my lawyer says it is legit.

[Mental]

... driving at 55 makes me sleepy. It's hypnotic. I....

One of my favorite lines from The Gumball Rally (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074597/)...

... : Fifty-five is fast enough to kill you, but slow enough to make you think you're safe.

[MetaLord 9]

Well if its your plates, your bike, and you didnt report it stolen you are responsible as the owner for the infraction, at least that is what they are telling me. My business partner used to use my Jeep for transporting our product back and forth from Kansas and he used to go thru some toll on 470 without paying (said he was used to having the transponder). I, as the vehicle owner, am getting sued for $470 dollars in tolls and fines and I wasn't even in the car. Seems like bullshit to me, but my lawyer says it is legit.
Dude. What'd we say about locking yourself in a room away from EVERYTHING until the new year?

They can probby nail you as the owner of the bike/vehicle/whatever and fine you, but, as in the case of red light cameras, I don't think that they can assess points on your license. Basically it's a revenue generator only and not really a deterrent.

[Shea]

Funny, according to the CDC the death rate actually went down from 15.8/100,000 (1992) to 15.2/100,000 (2005).

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5807a1.htm

Government control of your life. It only gets worse unless you stand up and say enough.

[Zach929rr]

okay, since i have no idea how, i am compelled to ask... and i do so knowing that this may start a shitstorm, but oh well...

so how you beat a radar camera thing?

For what its worth, there are a variety of products you can use to obscure your plate from the flash of traffic cameras. Pretty much turns the plate into a bright white rectangle on the photo.

Then again, I don't know if all traffic cameras flash. :dunno:

[Mental]

For what its worth, there are a variety of products you can use to obscure your plate from the flash of traffic cameras. Pretty much turns the plate into a bright white rectangle on the photo.

Then again, I don't know if all traffic cameras flash. :dunno:

-- and they have all been proven not to work.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/08/mythbusters-fail-to-foil-the-speedcamera/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2007_season)#Episode_73_.E2.80.93_.22 Speed_Cameras.22

[Zach929rr]

-- and they have all been proven not to work.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/08/mythbusters-fail-to-foil-the-speedcamera/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2007_season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_%282007_season))

Yeah, you edit those thinks in just as I ask you for them. :D Don't feel like watching the show, but I'm assuming they test the plate covers/sprays?

[Mental]

Yep, commercial ones and the home brewed solutions.

Drift just got a driving award in Arizona last month, and the pics looked webcam based. They snapped a picture of the front and the back of his car. No flash, just adjusted to the light

[Zach929rr]

Well that blows : /

[whitebrad]

seems to me that bikes that have the plate obscured by the tire might beat it... or the ones that the plate is at such an extreme angle that you can't read it from looking right at it... how do they get away with doing that anyway?

[Devaclis]

That is Arizona, not Colorado. I have yet to see any speed camera that takes a front and rear picture or any motor vehicle. Wife borrowed the bike? Joyrider? Friend had it? The ticket is NOT for the vehicle, it is for the operator. Precedent does not obsolve the courts of due process. Give up while you can, it't too hard to fight. You might miss CSI Miami.


Yeah, the courts disagree with you. You can fight it, but the legal precedent has been set already.

From http://www.motorists.org/photoenforce/home/arizona-freeway-speed-cameras/


Opposition is mounting, but the legal precedent so far is "guilty until proven innocent," and getting your liscence yanked without notification. A tinted shield won't get buy in on that system.

Once the "we need to protect the innocent" chants start, it will just like the absolutely moronic idea of federalizing the airport screeners. It will take a life of its own, reason will be shouted down and when broke cities and states see the huge finiancail oppurtunity these cameras present, we're doomed. Bear in mind, the compnay that makes these has a very slick lobby, deep pockets and excellent marketing skill.

I'll take a flesh and blood LEO over a camera every single time. As they are not motivated by personal profit (even if their departments are put under pressure by politicians) there is a relationship and a chance for a reduced or warning ticket. Even if their isn't, I know I got the ticket and I don't have to wait on a very ineffecient buracracy overwhelmed with upwards of 3,000 ticketts a day to let me know I should probably check all my turn signal bulbs before I get stopped and locked up.

In the current state of many goverment finiancal crisis', this is a huge danger to personal freedom, civil liberties and another step closer for a goverment that is already way too involved in my life.

Given the chance for more lawyers fee's, what side of the aurgument do you think the trail attourney's will come down on?

[dallas]

Why don't they just implate a GPS tracking chip inside each person so they can tell where we are at all times and how fast we are going?

[Shea]

Why don't they just implate a GPS tracking chip inside each person so they can tell where we are at all times and how fast we are going?

I'm sure it's in the works. RFID chip in each of our palms giving our bank accounts, medical history, criminal record and it flashes when it's our time to walk into the incinerator (all to the cries of "Renew!"). Control, it's what's for dinner.

[Mental]

That is Arizona, not Colorado. I have yet to see any speed camera that takes a front and rear picture or any motor vehicle. Wife borrowed the bike? Joyrider? Friend had it? The ticket is NOT for the vehicle, it is for the operator. Precedent does not obsolve the courts of due process. Give up while you can, it't too hard to fight. You might miss CSI Miami.

Valid piont, but you're aurguing logic in the face of buracracy. How many stories of real BS ticketts on this board alone that went to court and lost? How many in the real world.

When they tried to stoplight camera experiment a few years back? The legal precentdent was set, here in CO, that you were guilty until you proved (excessively) otherwise. It wasn't until that guy sued for invasion of privacy that they were removed. You will not be able to aurgue this on your own, you will end up paying a traffic attourney big money yo get your liscence back. Meanwhile, you still have to get to work, so you are left with the options of breaking the law, using public trans, bumming a ride, walking or a fortune in cab fare.

Once a state gets a taste of the sheer $$ they can generate from this, a tinited sheild won't help. Even the most foul-mooded traffic LEO is physically limited by how many citataions they can issue, these cameras represent a 10 fold increase with 1/4 of the finiancal outlay of actual Police officers. The whole deal can be finianced by the same company...."with 0 down, and we'll just take our cut from the ticketts you folks issue! Yessiree Mr Mayor, you are looking at a budget solution here! Just sign on this dotted line. Think of the lives you'll save, after all, it's all about making America safer"

[TFOGGuys]

Why don't they just implate a GPS tracking chip inside each person so they can tell where we are at all times and how fast we are going?

I can see that....imagine the speeding tickets you'd get on a flight from say, Denver to Seattle.....and the trouble you'd have fighting them all....

[dirkterrell]

"with 0 down, and we'll just take our cut from the ticketts you folks issue! Yessiree Mr Mayor, you are looking at a budget solution here! Just sign on this dotted line. Think of the lives you'll save, after all, it's all about making America safer"

Until the people decide that enough's enough and put a mayor in office that shuts them down. Government only does what we let them do. Most of the time we let it slide because the pain isn't high enough to bother us. And the politicians keep pushing until it is.

Dirk

[Snowman]

I'm sure it's in the works. RFID chip in each of our palms giving our bank accounts, medical history, criminal record and it flashes when it's our time to walk into the incinerator (all to the cries of "Renew!"). Control, it's what's for dinner.
The government under the Patriot Act is already taking samples of DNA from every new born for whatever propose they choose to use it for.

I’m sure it is just as easy to implant RFID chips into new borns without their parents ever knowing.

[Shea]

The government under the Patriot Act is already taking samples of DNA from every new born for whatever propose they choose to use it for.

I’m sure it is just as easy to implant RFID chips into new borns without their parents ever knowing.

"1984? Yeah right, man. That's a typo. Orwell is here now. He's livin' large."

I'm sure the government is doing it for our own good and therefore I support it. They have nothing but our safety and welfare as their primary motivation.

[puckstr]

I CAN'T DRIVE 55!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.awesomeoff.com/images/entries/mainview/sammy-hagar-cant-drive-55-3.jpg



Land of the Free home of the Brave.........my ASS

[MetaLord 9]

Most of the time we let it slide because the pain isn't high enough to bother us. And the politicians keep pushing until it is
The issue isn't the overall height of the pain, it's the increments in which it's increased. As long as you don't jump too high, too fast, the sky's the limit.

[Tipys]

Improve drivers training is the only way to make anyone safer.

[puckstr]

The issue isn't the overall height of the pain, it's the increments in which it's increased. As long as you don't jump too high, too fast, the sky's the limit.



just like the Frog fable

They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water,
it will leap out right away to escape the danger. But, if you put a frog in a kettle that is filled with water that is cool and pleasant,
and then you gradually heat the kettle until it starts boiling,
the frog will not become aware of the threat until it is too late.
The frog's survival instincts are geared towards detecting sudden changes.

[Mental]

Until the people decide that enough's enough and put a mayor in office that shuts them down. Government only does what we let them do. Most of the time we let it slide because the pain isn't high enough to bother us. And the politicians keep pushing until it is.

Dirk


No doubt! But its the same cry for security over liberty. Its the same idea "Well I'm not doing anything illeagal, what do I have to hide?" kinda of mob mentality that has perminated this nanny state we live in. The problem is, they won't get tired of that mayor. They generated revenue without rasing taxes, made us safer, oh look, another controversey on American Idol. This is the same nation that decided after a major attack, when we were vigaliant, that federalizing airport security was a good idea! The same country that panicked after a new flu killed seven peaple. This is a nation of peaple who view a fall at acommercial place or a car accident as a lottery ticket, and if you don't, there will be a lawyer there to convince you it is.

This isn;'t really a debate, but at the same time, I am getting pulled off piont. The piont I am making is backing the original posters claim about the enviroment folks and the safety folks are now working together. What is worse is they have a "study" to back their claims and it can be enforced with a no-outlay revenue generating solution. I'm not a conspiracy theory kinda guy, and I don't believe this is the master plan of an evil genuis, but it is the way of our current mentality as a nation, and a very real problem facing our liberties. It won;t be done by the federal goverment, but I beleive the states will embrace this.

Can you imagine Kansas with a 55 MPH speed limit and traffic cameras every 10 miles? They would have a scholarship programs for every student within the first month, and peaple like me would be $2K in debt before I made it to Salina. And it would start so innocouisly, with the turnpike, citing safety as their concern and then the ball starts rolling, and within a few years a very incidous little buracracy emerges, the leaders get re-elected for solving the states budget shortfall, and who's gonna stop them? Locals? "I don't speed, so I don't see the problem..." 1/2 this country drives through that state, I mean, what the hell are you gonna do? Go around? naw, all those out of state fines. No points accessed, heck we won't even report it to your insurance company, but you do owe us $275. Sure, you can contest it, it requires a court appearence here in Topeka. Of course the only way here is the Turnpike...

[Shea]

just like the Frog fable

They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water,
it will leap out right away to escape the danger. But, if you put a frog in a kettle that is filled with water that is cool and pleasant,
and then you gradually heat the kettle until it starts boiling,
the frog will not become aware of the threat until it is too late.
The frog's survival instincts are geared towards detecting sudden changes.

The federal income tax was instituted to pay for WWI and then be abolished. It was also never to exceed 5%. Under Obama the top bracket will reach at least 44%.

...we went to war over a stamp tax.

[puckstr]

The federal income tax was instituted to pay for WWI and then be abolished. It was also never to exceed 5%. Under Obama the top bracket will reach at least 44%.

...we went to war over a stamp tax.


Taxation without Representation

[dirkterrell]

No doubt! But its the same cry for security over liberty. Its the same idea "Well I'm not doing anything illeagal, what do I have to hide?" kinda of mob mentality that has perminated this nanny state we live in.

That's exactly it. Most people don't stand up against things that are wrong on principle. They only do it if it affects them. It's why I'm against helmet laws even though I wear one all the time. It's why I'm against the "war on drugs" even though I have never had the slightest desire to try them. It's why I support gay marriage even though I'm heterosexual. You either support rights and freedoms or you don't. It's not a pick and choose buffet.

Dirk
(needing a ladder to get off this soapbox...)

[Shea]

That's exactly it. Most people don't stand up against things that are wrong on principle. They only do it if it affects them. It's why I'm against helmet laws even though I wear one all the time. It's why I'm against the "war on drugs" even though I have never had the slightest desire to try them. It's why I support gay marriage even though I'm heterosexual. You either support rights and freedoms or you don't. It's not a pick and choose buffet.

Dirk
(needing a ladder to get off this soapbox...)

Exactly. Supporting liberty and freedom means accepting that there will be things that you think are wrong, immoral or whatever. It doesn't mean that I condone them, but I support the RIGHT of the individual to pursue them. The second I try to control someone else (either directly or through an elected official), I start down the slope of tyranny.

Freedom is hard and requires effort. Tyranny is easy and only requires submission.

Got room up there for me Dirk? :)

[dirkterrell]

Got room up there for me Dirk? :)

Plenty of room.

Dirk

[Mental]

... It's why I'm against helmet laws even though I wear one all the time. It's why I'm against the "war on drugs" even though I have never had the slightest desire to try them. It's why I support gay marriage even though I'm heterosexual. You either support rights and freedoms or you don't. It's not a pick and choose buffet...

http://www.culturesofresistance.org/images/aor/billy.jpg

WOOOOOO- AMEN MY BROTHER!!!! Preach it preach it preach it!!!

[longrider]

That's exactly it. Most people don't stand up against things that are wrong on principle. They only do it if it affects them. It's why I'm against helmet laws even though I wear one all the time. It's why I'm against the "war on drugs" even though I have never had the slightest desire to try them. It's why I support gay marriage even though I'm heterosexual. You either support rights and freedoms or you don't. It's not a pick and choose buffet.

Dirk
(needing a ladder to get off this soapbox...)

You can stay on that soapbox as far as I am concerned. I agree 100%, with the lack of people willing to speak up I'm glad to be a FOG as I have no desire to see what this country will be like in 50 years.

Your statement reminded me of this famous quote:

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

[Zoom]

They've got speed cameras in addition to LEO's set up in Scotland, but people threw such a fuss over the cameras as being nothing more than income generators, that the gov't was forced to put up big, bright yellow signs within a mile saying "WARNING--cameras ahead". Now, if you still get knicked by the camera, it's your own bloody fault.

To go with the rest of the thread: "Those who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither."

[Wintermute]

You can also buy GPSes in Britain that have gatso locations pre-loaded so you can slow down, although that does nothing about the vans.

They fight back over there too: http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

[Snowman]

All I know is that if it does go back to 55mph, I will only have only one word to say…


“Gumball”

"Fifty-five is fast enough to kill you, but slow enough to make you think you're safe."

[Mental]

All I know is that if it does go back to 55mph, I will only have only one word to say…


“Gumball”

"Fifty-five is fast enough to kill you, but slow enough to make you think you're safe."

Smith (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0570625/): So what is this, a vintage car?
Bannon (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0765546/): Well Smitty, some things get meaner as they get older.

[TFOGGuys]

First rule of Italian Driving: What's behind you doesna matter.....