Obama care?

[Pandora-11]

http://images.politico.com/global/blogs/drobama4.JPG

[rforsythe]

Was there an actual, you know, point to this thread?

[Pandora-11]

no...none.

[rforsythe]

Ok. Just checking.

[Bueller]

http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/images/MB/emoticons/fighting_hammers.gif

[Pandora-11]

http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[zetaetatheta]

Bush Care

Revised Heimlich Maneuver
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll78/manitoumike/waterboarding-1-1.jpg

[TheStig]

How about this, I hate you all of you! And your opinions are worthless! Only my opinions are based on fact!!!! [Peter voice]Yeah just stirring the pot a little here[End Peter voice]

[MetaLord 9]

Was there an actual, you know, point to this thread?
Is this your first time on the CSC?

[Snowman]

Dude do honestly think any monitor has any idea what is truly going on with this site?

[puckstr]

Was there an actual, you know, point to this thread?


NO. Just like using a catchy SLOGAN

like "Hope and Change"

for a product that does nothing.

[MetaLord 9]

Dude do honestly think any monitor has any idea what is truly going on with this site?
Randal. Come on. You KNOW me man? I try not to think when EVER possible. :D

[puckstr]

Good American
http://msp261.photobucket.com/albums/ii49/pachkenum/obey.jpg

[DavidofColorado]

If only he become a doctor instead of a community organizer or politician.

[Devaclis]

Obama night, late December back in '63
What a very special time for me
As I remember what a night!
Obama night

[MetaLord 9]

obamabuttsecks?

[Devaclis]

Nagga please!!

[puckstr]

obamabuttsecks?

No thankyou:scream1:

[MetaLord 9]

Nagga please!!
Nagga Nagga, Not gonna work here any more!

[Devaclis]

http://rlv.zcache.com/naga_please_tshirt-p2350648116333380343pvi_400.jpg

[MetaLord 9]

think about it...

[Nick_Ninja]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/b/b3/Naga.jpg

[#1Townie]

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[puckstr]

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll78/manitoumike/waterboarding-1-1.jpg



And for added pleasure the "purple nurple or tittie twister" is administered. As seen in the above picture.

[DavidofColorado]

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not anymore. Huh liberals?

[Snowman]

So which World of Warcraft Guild would Obama have an Avatar in?

[Shea]

So which World of Warcraft Guild would Obama have an Avatar in?

The guild where he really doesn't know his class/spec but tells everyone how to play theirs. When the DPS meter comes up after a fight it shows him pulling 25% of what others are doing and then he blames it on the somebody else.

I think they call themselves "Elite Noobs"

[Wintermute]

Huh what? That that's what passes for political "debate" on CSC?

Not like we can have an intelligent discussion here.

[puckstr]

Huh what? That that's what passes for political "debate" on CSC?

Not like we can have an intelligent discussion here.

http://juli.simpleblog.org/uploads/Juli_lickedafunnystamp.jpg

[Shea]

Huh what? That that's what passes for political "debate" on CSC?

Not like we can have an intelligent discussion here.

You're always a 180 degrees out of phase aren't you?

[Wintermute]

Sorry Puck, I know I shouldn't interrupt The Never-ending CSC Rightwing Circle Jerk of "Oh noes!! Mean ol' Obama's comin' to git me!!!!!!"

[mtnairlover]

lol...licking funny stamps come in handy on a Friday...

How's this for political debate...on the health care front and this is really touchy (obviously), but I would like to see an actual plan. I would like to see that the people on the hill would actually come together and get one written up. As it stands, there isn't one. That's why no voting took place the first time out.

Why does health care need to be "reformed"? I dunno, anyone ask their grand parents lately what their medical bills are like these days? Who picks up the bill when our grand parents can't? Does anyone give a rat's ass about their grand-parents? Why should anyone? Cuz we are aging too. And like the freakin economy, affordable health care is a dream. The elderly are choosing between eating and buying their pills. When they can't medicate, they go to the hospital and when they can't pay the hospital bill, then we eventually pay that bill. And the mess repeats itself over and over again...and that mess is exploding exponentially as the population has been quickly aging because of the "baby boom". And so on and so on.

Grandparents are opening up credit card accounts just to pay their medical bills. That's scary. Even my real estate agent can't afford health care. Her monthly insurance is now $720. and she has decided to drop it. Thats what our politicians have been facing for years now when it comes to the argument of health care reform.

Something needs fixing.

[Wintermute]

You're always a 180 degrees out of phase aren't you?

Considering you're 180 degrees out out of phase with reality when it comes to politics, yes, I'm 180 degrees out of phase with you.

[DavidofColorado]

I heard Obamacare has elders in mind 59 and up. Let em die. There is no long term care in mind for them. They are no longer as useful for the civilian army anymore so they need to be let go of. Just what I heard but I wouldn't put it past the Dems. Tax and Spend!

[MetaLord 9]

I know I shouldn't interrupt The Never-ending CSC Rightwing Circle Jerk of "Oh noes!! Mean ol' Obama's comin' to git me!!!!!!"
Oh, you mean like the leftwing "Bush is a diabolical evil mastermind bent upon world destruction and he's also very very dumb so he is why Obama is the savior of all things holy, right, and good" circle jerk that existed before the election? It's just the cycle of political crap. Rebpulicans are in office, Democrats rant & rave. Democrats are in office, Republicans lose their shit. Either way, the Libertarians are driven further & further from the herd. Enter Shea. :D (luff ja budde'! )

[Wintermute]

Yes, mtnairlover, we can do something about universal healthcare. Just about every other wealthy, advanced industrial country has done it.

Many (like France) have had good sucess with a mixed public/private system. We need mixed because we really can't kill the insurance companies with a single-payer system, too many jobs in that industry and too many people have billions invested(retirement plans) in their stock.

But we can't have a serious discussion of all the details and grey areas because our politics is a childish clown show of seeing everything in only "black or white."

[#1Townie]

Sorry Puck, I know I shouldn't interrupt The Never-ending CSC Rightwing Circle Jerk of "Oh noes!! Mean ol' Obama's comin' to git me!!!!!!"
did you everr think maybe not all of us who dont like obama are not part of either side and think this whole team shit is part of whats wrong with the country???

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shea]

lol...licking funny stamps come in handy on a Friday...

How's this for political debate...on the health care front and this is really touchy (obviously), but I would like to see an actual plan. I would like to see that the people on the hill would actually come together and get one written up. As it stands, there isn't one. That's why no voting took place the first time out.

Why does health care need to be "reformed"? I dunno, anyone ask their grand parents lately what their medical bills are like these days? Who picks up the bill when our grand parents can't? Does anyone give a rat's ass about their grand-parents? Why should anyone? Cuz we are aging too. And like the freakin economy, affordable health care is a dream. The elderly are choosing between eating and buying their pills. When they can't medicate, they go to the hospital and when they can't pay the hospital bill, then we eventually pay that bill. And the mess repeats itself over and over again...and that mess is exploding exponentially as the population has been quickly aging because of the "baby boom". And so on and so on.

Grandparents are opening up credit card accounts just to pay their medical bills. That's scary. Even my real estate agent can't afford health care. Her monthly insurance is now $720. and she has decided to drop it. Thats what our politicians have been facing for years now when it comes to the argument of health care reform.

Something needs fixing.

I contend that the debate is being shaped so that our healthcare "system" is being made out to be on the brink of failure. That if something isn't done as soon as possible, our "grandparents" will all die horrible deaths that will weigh on our conscience for generations. This is fallacious and designed to cram a horrible bill down our throats. It is becoming Obama's trademark to make everything a crisis that has to be taken care of right away, without our elected representatives even reading the legislation that they are voting upon.

Frankly, for me, the debate is not whether something has to be done, but rather, who's responsibility is it? Is your life, my responsibility? Do you have the right to use the power of government to make it so? For me, the answer to both of these questions is a visceral 'no'.

Does that make me uncaring? Cold? Evil? Desirous that all poor people die? No, despite efforts by Wintermute and others to portray me as such. It's far easier to just create this strawman and have everyone emote about it.

Where is the line between what I am responsible for in my life and what others are REQUIRED to take care of? That is the real debate that goes unanswered by those on both the left and the right.

Cathy, Wintermute, et al. Do I have the right to come into your homes and take your TV because I didn't feel it was necessary to save up for one myself? Is that ethical and moral? Your answer is probably no. Therefore you cannot empower government to do the same and have any moral standing.

[puckstr]

Sorry Puck, I know I shouldn't interrupt The Never-ending CSC Rightwing Circle Jerk of "Oh noes!! Mean ol' Obama's comin' to git me!!!!!!"


Whatever

I am not rightwing or a lefty. I am just saying that Obammy is not going to do SHIt, just like the repubs.

[Shea]

Considering you're 180 degrees out out of phase with reality when it comes to politics, yes, I'm 180 degrees out of phase with you.

Really? How so sir? If you care to 'debate' any of my political positions without resorting to name calling, or fallacy, I am here. If you care to stand up and defend big government, egregious usurpation of our rights as citizens and massive (unsustainable) debt loads, I eagerly await the chance to eviscerate you.

[Shea]

Yes, mtnairlover, we can do something about universal healthcare. Just about every other wealthy, advanced industrial country has done it.

Many (like France) have had good sucess with a mixed public/private system. We need mixed because we really can't kill the insurance companies with a single-payer system, too many jobs in that industry and too many people have billions invested(retirement plans) in their stock.

But we can't have a serious discussion of all the details and grey areas because our politics is a childish clown show of seeing everything in only "black or white."

Care to explain to the good people here how much additional taxation would be needed to pay for your utopia?



Or I can't wait....it's another 21% out of your paycheck. Who's in favor?

[#1Townie]

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mtnairlover]

It seems to me, Shea...that you are not looking at the whole story because health care reform is being tossed around because dems are in the white house. The fact that it's the "dems" trying to hash out a plan puts the repubs on the defensive, so of course there's going to be push back.

As you look at things more deeply, like I had mentioned in my post, there is a growing number of people who are choosing between eating and health care. These people will eventually end up in a hospital and not able to pay their bills. In order to recover those costs, hospitals, Dr.s, pharmacuetical, et al will increase their prices to recover the losses. Because the elderly population is growing by leaps and bounds, those costs to everyone else are quickly rising. We may have our own insurance through where we work, but how much does it cost our companies to purchase those plans? What things are our companies giving up in order to pay for those plans? Sooner or later, as the numbers continue to increase as we continue to drag our feet and not do anything, something will give.

I think it would behoove us as a country to come up with something viable, so that we curb the potential loss in the future. As "wintermute" pointed out, something where every player is taken into consideration would keep the country from continuing to spend needlessly.

[Nick_Ninja]

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When Clownie strokes out I wanna see the level of his insurance kick in.

[#1Townie]

FUCK INSURANCE AND FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LETS GET WASTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[puckstr]

FUCK INSURANCE AND FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LETS GET WASTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Is it 4:20 yet?:siesta:

[Nick_Ninja]

FUCK INSURANCE COMPANIES<snip>YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LETS GET WASTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<snip>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fixored :twisted:

[#1Townie]

HELL NO PUCKSTER!!!!!!!!!!!

ITS BEER 30!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[#1Townie]

NO NINJA BITCH FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wintermute]

Once again, it's "My Utopia", Shea? I've said it before, I can count on you to take anything I state and blow it the fuck out of proportion and try to make me debate your strawman. Exactly like how you chose my side of your "If you care to stand up and defend big government, egregious usurpation of our rights as citizens and massive (unsustainable) debt loads, I eagerly await the chance to eviscerate you." debate.

Because there's no middle ground on anything, right?

As for healthcare, I don't know what the final cost will be because I don't know what the system is going to end up being, seeing as how IT'S STILL BEING WORKED ON. So arguing about a meaningless tax rate that some think tank hack pulled out of their ass is a stupid waste of time.

[Nick_Ninja]

NO NINJA BITCH FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clownie needs a hug :makeout:

[#1Townie]

MY LOGIC IS UNDENIABLE

[Wintermute]

Anyway, it is Friday, so to get back in the spirit of the thread:

FUCK RUSH!!!

[#1Townie]

Once again, it's "My Utopia", Shea? I've said it before, I can count on you to take anything I state and blow it the fuck out of proportion and try to make me debate your strawman. Exactly like how you chose my side of your "If you care to stand up and defend big government, egregious usurpation of our rights as citizens and massive (unsustainable) debt loads, I eagerly await the chance to eviscerate you." debate.

Because there's no middle ground on anything, right?

As for healthcare, I don't know what the final cost will be because I don't know what the system is going to end up being, seeing as how IT'S STILL BEING WORKED ON. So arguing about a meaningless tax rate that some think tank hack pulled out of their ass is a stupid waste of time.

UMMMMMMMMMMMMM






FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!! I WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

[#1Townie]

Anyway, it is Friday, so to get back in the spirit of the thread:

FUCK RUSH!!!
NO FUCK OBAMA!!!!! RUSH DOES NOT RUN THE COUNTRY!!!!!! FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!

[Nick_Ninja]

UMMMMMMMMMMMMM






FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!! I WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clownie ---- I remember my first beer too. :drink: :lol:

[Shea]

It seems to me, Shea...that you are not looking at the whole story because health care reform is being tossed around because dems are in the white house. The fact that it's the "dems" trying to hash out a plan puts the repubs on the defensive, so of course there's going to be push back.

There is no "whole story" Cathy. You are telling me that someone else's life is now my responsibility. That you will use the power (ie threat of force) of government to MAKE me comply. What I am saying to you is, that is not freedom, that is tyranny.



As you look at things more deeply, like I had mentioned in my post, there is a growing number of people who are choosing between eating and health care. These people will eventually end up in a hospital and not able to pay their bills. In order to recover those costs, hospitals, Dr.s, pharmacuetical, et al will increase their prices to recover the losses. Because the elderly population is growing by leaps and bounds, those costs to everyone else are quickly rising. We may have our own insurance through where we work, but how much does it cost our companies to purchase those plans? What things are our companies giving up in order to pay for those plans? Sooner or later, as the numbers continue to increase as we continue to drag our feet and not do anything, something will give. I understand the dilemma facing others. How widespread it is and how much of it is hype generated by this administration to bolster it's case for this massive boondoggle, I don't know. Appeals to emotion are not a solid footing for any sort of legislation, however.

Companies choose to offer insurance or not as part of their benefit package. They have that choice, the very essence of freedom. I have a choice to either have insurance or not...once again, my freedom. If I don't take responsibility for my own health, I face the consequences. As most liberal plans, you want to take the consequences out of choices and spread the costs to everyone else. Much like Wall Street, we all want unlimited upside and no downside.

Obama's plan (or government's plan or the Dem's plan, whatever) will cost an immense amount of money, that we DON'T have. You said "something's got to give" and honestly, the welfare state is about there. We have spend TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of dollars, mortgaging your/my childrens existance, so we can take consquences out of life. Somewhere along the way we all decided that we wanted everything for free. Unfortunately only idiots believe there is a free lunch.



I think it would behoove us as a country to come up with something viable, so that we curb the potential loss in the future. As "wintermute" pointed out, something where every player is taken into consideration would keep the country from continuing to spend needlessly.There have been many people that were smarter then me, that the way to get costs down is NOT to create a government insurance company, single payer system, univeral healthcare. When you don't suffer the pain of your own choices, they cease to have any meaning. What do I care if I go to the doctor 8 times a day, it doesn't cost me any more? What do I care if I smoke 10 packs a day, it doesn't cost me anything? What do I care if I smoke meth, it doesn't cost me anything? There is no incentive to NOT do those things. Humans need pain, it tells us we're doing something stupid.

[#1Townie]

WAS IT WITH JESUS CUZ I KNOW YOUR AS OLD AS DIRT..

[#1Townie]

O YEAH AND NO GUNS ON GROUP RIDES!!!!!!!!

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!


OBAMA RUINED MY MYSPACE!!!!!!!!!

[Nick_Ninja]

O YEAH AND NO GUNS ON GROUP RIDES!!!!!!!!

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!


OBAMA RUINED MY MYSPACE!!!!!!!!!

Yep. Yer in your own space ------ thank god.

[MetaLord 9]

thread locking 3...2...1...

[Shea]

Once again, it's "My Utopia", Shea? I've said it before, I can count on you to take anything I state and blow it the fuck out of proportion and try to make me debate your strawman. Exactly like how you chose my side of your "If you care to stand up and defend big government, egregious usurpation of our rights as citizens and massive (unsustainable) debt loads, I eagerly await the chance to eviscerate you." debate.

You are the one promoting it dude. Therefore it is your utopia. But great way to deflect.



Because there's no middle ground on anything, right?
This from the guy who says the evil white republicans want to let people die? Rich...



As for healthcare, I don't know what the final cost will be because I don't know what the system is going to end up being, seeing as how IT'S STILL BEING WORKED ON. So arguing about a meaningless tax rate that some think tank hack pulled out of their ass is a stupid waste of time.

Well gee whiz kiddo, why don't we just call up Obama and ask? Because he already said it's going to cost $1 Trillion. What's +/- $100 Billion?

NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273&ft=1&f=1004

[DavidofColorado]

thread locking 3...2...1...
Its not my fault this time. yeah!!!:angel::multi:

[Nick_Ninja]

Until the corporate world can assure me that they aren't price gouging prescription drugs and until they can assure me that they will not yank my insurance for a preexisting (or newly discovered) medical condition, I won't support the current system. American health care management = FAIL :down:

[#1Townie]

Yep. Yer in your own space ------ thank god.

DAMN SKIPPY!!!




OBAMA RAPED MY TRUCK!!!!!!

[#1Townie]

thread locking 3...2...1...
i dont see why this should be locked... its a fuck your god thread.. my team is better and we need to have a government controlled health care cuz obama rules... nothing wrong with that..

[puckstr]

Anyway, it is Friday, so to get back in the spirit of the thread:

FUCK RUSH!!!


WTF DUDE

RUSH ROCKS
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_A1ohZCdL1Es/RsG-7TQ05rI/AAAAAAAAAOo/nv7N3uR-qJs/s320/AlbumCovers-Rush-2112%281976%29.jpg

[Shea]

Until the corporate world can assure me that they aren't price gouging prescription drugs and until they can assure me that they will not yank my insurance for a preexisting (or newly discovered) medical condition, I won't support the current system. American health care management = FAIL :down:

Is being unable to control the level of your voice due to alcohol a pre-existing medical condition now? :p

Yes, there is a LOT of room for improvement in our current system, don't get me wrong. I take issue with the government taking over ANY aspect of my life and denying choice (and therefore freedom) to individual citizens.

[Pandora-11]

There is no "whole story" Cathy. You are telling me that someone else's life is now my responsibility. That you will use the power (ie threat of force) of government to MAKE me comply. What I am saying to you is, that is not freedom, that is tyranny.

I understand the dilemma facing others. How widespread it is and how much of it is hype generated by this administration to bolster it's case for this massive boondoggle, I don't know. Appeals to emotion are not a solid footing for any sort of legislation, however.

Companies choose to offer insurance or not as part of their benefit package. They have that choice, the very essence of freedom. I have a choice to either have insurance or not...once again, my freedom. If I don't take responsibility for my own health, I face the consequences. As most liberal plans, you want to take the consequences out of choices and spread the costs to everyone else. Much like Wall Street, we all want unlimited upside and no downside.

Obama's plan (or government's plan or the Dem's plan, whatever) will cost an immense amount of money, that we DON'T have. You said "something's got to give" and honestly, the welfare state is about there. We have spend TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of dollars, mortgaging your/my childrens existance, so we can take consquences out of life. Somewhere along the way we all decided that we wanted everything for free. Unfortunately only idiots believe there is a free lunch.

There have been many people that were smarter then me, that the way to get costs down is NOT to create a government insurance company, single payer system, univeral healthcare. When you don't suffer the pain of your own choices, they cease to have any meaning. What do I care if I go to the doctor 8 times a day, it doesn't cost me any more? What do I care if I smoke 10 packs a day, it doesn't cost me anything? What do I care if I smoke meth, it doesn't cost me anything? There is no incentive to NOT do those things. Humans need pain, it tells us we're doing something stupid.

.....and you get the smart logical award for today!!! Well done!

[Shea]

WTF DUDE

RUSH ROCKS
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_A1ohZCdL1Es/RsG-7TQ05rI/AAAAAAAAAOo/nv7N3uR-qJs/s320/AlbumCovers-Rush-2112%281976%29.jpg

:rock:

[puckstr]

thread locking 3...2...1...
http://kinderfresser.org/download/fun/pics/forum/thread-lock.jpg

happy?

[#1Townie]

obama killed rush and replaced him with a pill popin robot..

[mtnairlover]

Gotta leave work soon, or I'd answer better. Here's something to think about though...this health care reform debate thingy ain't a new idea brought about by Mr. O.

It's been talked about, hashed out, and argued over for the past 30 years, maybe more, but this was all I had time to search on...

Bush health care reform (http://healthinsurance.about.com/od/healthinsurancebasics/ss/07SOUProposal.htm)

Clinton health care reform (http://www.upenn.edu/pnc/ptbok.html)

Reagan health care reform (http://blogs.wsj.com/capitaljournal/2009/06/09/health-care-reform-first-youll-feel-a-sharp-pinch/)

I didn't even have time to really read those articles, but as I see things, there is something that is close to being broken and it needs attention.

I might chime in again this weekend...but then again...maybe the weather will keep me outside.:)

[Wintermute]

You are the one promoting it dude. Therefore it is your utopia. But great way to deflect.


I'm not deflecting when I ask why we can't work out universal healthcare like every other wealthy industrialized country. Call it whatever cutesy label you want, but it's a national shame that we don't have the balls to sack up and do what France has done.



This from the guy who says the evil white republicans want to let people die? Rich...

That has fuck-all to do with hammering out all the grey areas in healthcare. Besides, there isn't any grey area to the fact that the GOP is almost entirely white and overwhelmingly southern. The evil is a subjective call.



Well gee whiz kiddo, why don't we just call up Obama and ask? Because he already said it's going to cost $1 Trillion. What's +/- $100 Billion?

NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273&ft=1&f=1004

Wow, the same amount we've spent in Iraq. It would obviously be a crime against God to invest that amount over time on our own citizens.

[Nick_Ninja]

Is being unable to control the level of your voice due to alcohol a pre-existing medical condition now? :p

Yes, there is a LOT of room for improvement in our current system, don't get me wrong. I take issue with the government taking over ANY aspect of my life and denying choice (and therefore freedom) to individual citizens.



The corporate world sucks ass.

pharmaceuticals
banking
auto manufacturing
transportation
utilities
oil
I say let the corporations fail (as many have done so already) and let the government -- elected by the people --- have a chance on running it into the ground too.

[#1Townie]

how about our own people pay their own bills and get their own shit.. i cant afford health care right now but im trying to better my life so that i can.. i dont want others paying for me.


obama burned down my house with the kkk..

[Shea]

I'm not deflecting when I ask why we can't work out universal healthcare like every other wealthy industrialized country. Call it whatever cutesy label you want, but it's a national shame that we don't have the balls to sack up and do what France has done.


I don't know how else to put it to you Winter....YOUR LIFE, HEALTH, PROSPERITY, WELL-BEING IS YOUR GOD DAMN RESPONSIBILITY. Unless you can come up with a convincing, logical, rational argument that negates an individuals ownership of their actions, choices, life-path...there is no way you are going to convince me that universal anything, run by the government (that has no financial incentive to run it efficiently) is mandatory.



That has fuck-all to do with hammering out all the grey areas in healthcare. Besides, there isn't any grey area to the fact that the GOP is almost entirely white and overwhelmingly southern. The evil is a subjective call.

What gray area Winter? Your stance is that universal healthcare is not only needed, but an unavoidable certainty. Where is the gray area in that?



Wow, the same amount we've spent in Iraq. It would obviously be a crime against God to invest that amount over time on our own citizens.

Now you're pulling out the Iraq card. More fallacies. Taking the property of one group of citizens (with the threat of force) and giving it to others is, in no way shape or form, an "investment".

[Shea]

I say let the corporations fail (as many have done so already) and let the government -- elected by the people --- have a chance on running it into the ground too.

How about we let them fail, and just let the market clean it up? Less expensive for the rest of us :)

[Nick_Ninja]

How about we let them fail, and just let the market clean it up? Less expensive for the rest of us :)

The market is the fail.

[DFab]

There is no "whole story" Cathy. You are telling me that someone else's life is now my responsibility. That you will use the power (ie threat of force) of government to MAKE me comply. What I am saying to you is, that is not freedom, that is tyranny.

By that logic, should not the military be disbanded, as well as all police and fire departments?


I have a choice to either have insurance or not...once again, my freedom. If I don't take responsibility for my own health, I face the consequences.
If you don't have insurance, and then wreck your bike, the hospital will still treat you. If you are never able to pay, say you declare bankruptcy, the hospital will recover the funds by charging the rest of us (or our insurance companies) more. The only way to ensure that you and only you face the consequences, is for the hospital to refuse treatment for those who cannot pay. Are you advocating such a system?


Obama's plan (or government's plan or the Dem's plan, whatever) will cost an immense amount of money, that we DON'T have.I would argue that in the long run, a single payer system will cover everyone and cost less than our current system.


Unfortunately only idiots believe there is a free lunch.You can come to our bbq and have a free diner, and free beer.


What do I care if I go to the doctor 8 times a day, it doesn't cost me any more?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocondriac
Then you need help. The vast majority of people don't go to the doctor for no reason.

What do I care if I smoke 10 packs a day, it doesn't cost me anything?Other than 20 years or so of your life, lung capacity, and your sense of taste? There are many things other than cost of insurance that deter smoking.


There is no incentive to NOT do those things. Humans need pain, it tells us we're doing something stupid.There is plenty of incentive not to do those things. I don't care what sort of insurance system we have in this country, I'm not going to pick up a meth habit.

[dirkterrell]

Until the corporate world can assure me that they aren't price gouging prescription drugs...

Most drugs being developed are complete failures and never make it out of the lab. Of thousands of compounds tested, five might make it to clinical trials. One of those might make it to FDA approval. Biomedical researchers don't come cheap and that one winning compound has to pay for all of of the research on the losing ones. I read somewhere that it takes something like $1 billion to bring a new drug to market. Drugs aren't cheap but they do reduce overall medical costs (e.g. cholesterol lowering drugs vs. cardiac surgery).

Dirk

[Shea]

Gotta leave work soon, or I'd answer better. Here's something to think about though...this health care reform debate thingy ain't a new idea brought about by Mr. O.

It's been talked about, hashed out, and argued over for the past 30 years, maybe more, but this was all I had time to search on...

Bush health care reform (http://healthinsurance.about.com/od/healthinsurancebasics/ss/07SOUProposal.htm)

Clinton health care reform (http://www.upenn.edu/pnc/ptbok.html)

Reagan health care reform (http://blogs.wsj.com/capitaljournal/2009/06/09/health-care-reform-first-youll-feel-a-sharp-pinch/)

I didn't even have time to really read those articles, but as I see things, there is something that is close to being broken and it needs attention.

I might chime in again this weekend...but then again...maybe the weather will keep me outside.:)

Government, despite their endlessly verbose proclamations to the contrary, care little about you, your health, the costs associated with it, or making the system work better. It's all about control. Like I said, there are many aspects of healthcare that can (and should) be fixed, let's call them the "gray areas" :) But this is FAR AND AWAY a bad idea and will ruin this country. We are already on the brink of financial collapse (with China balking at our debt instruments and us monetizing our debt as fast as we can), and doing this WILL break us.

[Wintermute]

I don't know how else to put it to you Winter....YOUR LIFE, HEALTH, PROSPERITY, WELL-BEING IS YOUR GOD DAMN RESPONSIBILITY. Unless you can come up with a convincing, logical, rational argument that negates an individuals ownership of their actions, choices, life-path...there is no way you are going to convince me that universal anything, run by the government (that has no financial incentive to run it efficiently) is mandatory.


I guess the children of the uninsured working poor made the choice to be born into families torn apart when a parent gets sick. Not everybody in the country is able-bodied with marketable skills, Shea. Even if they are, that's no guarantee you're going to get or afford coverage.



What gray area Winter? Your stance is that universal healthcare is not only needed, but an unavoidable certainty. Where is the gray area in that?


It's not a certainty by any means. I don't underestimate the rightwing noise machine in this country and its ability to control policy.



Now you're pulling out the Iraq card. More fallacies. Taking the property of one group of citizens (with the threat of force) and giving it to others is, in no way shape or form, an "investment".

It's an investment because as every other wealthy, industrialized country long ago realized, a healthy citizenry is a plus, economically and morally. Less missed work and less overall misery is good for the bottom line.

Our goal should be for the US to be #1 in everything, including health. We're far from it.

[Shea]

By that logic, should not the military be disbanded, as well as all police and fire departments?

No. Nice try though.



If you don't have insurance, and then wreck your bike, the hospital will still treat you. If you are never able to pay, say you declare bankruptcy, the hospital will recover the funds by charging the rest of us (or our insurance companies) more. The only way to ensure that you and only you face the consequences, is for the hospital to refuse treatment for those who cannot pay. Are you advocating such a system?

No of course not.



I would argue that in the long run, a single payer system will cover everyone and cost less than our current system.

If you would please show me where government has ever run ANYTHING, that lowered costs and was more efficient. We will be borrowing every cent to pay for this (or taxing it out of the economy). Either way, it will hurt us far more then doing nothing.

Mandating coverages and mandating coverage for pre-existing conditions will drive UP costs, not lower them.



Then you need help. The vast majority of people don't go to the doctor for no reason.

Yet a great many do for minor conditions. Get the sniffles, go to the doctor. Get a skinned knee, go to the ER. We have become so entirely pain averse in this country that any amount of discomfort requires a specialist. And doctors are forced to see you lest you sue them for millions of dollars. You are sucking finite resources out of a system. Government insurance will make it worse, not better.

[puckstr]

Most drugs being developed are complete failures and never make it out of the lab. Of thousands of compounds tested, five might make it to clinical trials. One of those might make it to FDA approval. Biomedical researchers don't come cheap and that one winning compound has to pay for all of of the research on the losing ones. I read somewhere that it takes something like $1 billion to bring a new drug to market. Drugs aren't cheap but they do reduce overall medical costs (e.g. cholesterol lowering drugs vs. cardiac surgery).

Dirk


There is NO money in CURES. Just treat the patient with expensive drugs that prolong life (or an poor excuses for life).

Milk the system for all is worth.

Corporations/Banks run this country.

[MetaLord 9]

i dont see why this should be locked... its a fuck your god thread.. my team is better and we need to have a government controlled health care cuz obama rules... nothing wrong with that..
Eh, it did turn back that way! It was going the route of "you suck, no you suck." good turn around though kids!

[Shea]

I guess the children of the uninsured working poor made the choice to be born into families torn apart when a parent gets sick. Not everybody in the country is an able-bodied white male with marketable skills, Shea. And even if they are, that's no guarantee you're going to get or afford coverage.

You've got those appeals to emotion on speed dial don't you? :p

The vast, vast, VAST majority of Americans are able bodied. Those working poor that you throw up as justification of government take over of the health care system have medicaid. They have charity. They have the choice, not to have kids. They have the choice to better themselves and move up in the social strata.



It's not a certainty by any means. I don't underestimate the rightwing noise machine in this country and its ability to control policy. But you want it, demand it and say that it is the only way we can be a "just" society or a more civil society. Thus for you it is a false dilemma. Either we implement some sort of single payer system and become "good" or we don't and therefore are "evil". Once again, where is the gray area in that?



It's an investment because as every other wealthy, industrialized country long ago realized, a healthy citizenry is a plus, economically and morally. Less missed work and less overall misery is good for the bottom line.

Our goal should be for the US to be #1 in everything, including health. We're far from it.

Can you show me the data that says we are grossly behind the rest of the "civilized world" in terms of health? Life expectancy? US: 78.06, France: 80.87. Infant mortality: US 6.3, France 4.2. I'm not seeing the "We suck" level of crapiness that you claim is there. For the minor differences you want to gut the financial prowess of a country?

[puckstr]

Eh, it did turn back that way! It was going the route of "you suck, no you suck." good turn around though kids!
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jafvab/twat.jpg

[#1Townie]

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!

[MetaLord 9]

:D

[#1Townie]

OBAMA STOLE MY FISH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dirkterrell]

Can you show me the data that says we are grossly behind the rest of the "civilized world" in terms of health? Life expectancy? US: 78.06, France: 80.87.

And if you take accidental deaths out of the picture, the US is at the top of the list for life expectancy. Source (http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2007/09/natural-life-expectancy-in-united.html).

And for cancer survival, you're decidedly better off here than in Europe:


Europe’s survival rates are lower than in the US, where 66.3 per cent of men and 62.9 per cent of women survive for five years, compared with 47.3 per cent of European men and 55.8 per cent of women. These figures may represent earlier diagnosis.Source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article2296368.ece)

Dirk

[#1Townie]

oooooooooo snap.. dude just brought the stats to the table.. word fo sho!!!!!!!


OBAMA BLOWED UP MY MAIL BOX WITH A M80!!!!!!!!!

[Wintermute]

Let's put those 2 numbers in perspective:

According to our own CIA, not the most "bleeding-heart" of sources:

44th from the best in infant mortality (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html)

50th in the world in life expectancy (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html)

From the WHO:

We're 72nd in overall system effectiveness. (http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_performance_ranks.html)

Yet we spend the 2nd highest % of GDP in the world on healthcare. (http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_ 2005.html)

The system is broken. This first try at fixing it won't be perfect, but it's time to get off our asses. It's been 60 years since Truman first started talking about universal coverage.

[puckstr]

:D
http://taylorhicksgirlfriend.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/bite_my_shiny_metal_ass_by_red_flare.jpg

[#1Townie]

Let's put those 2 numbers in perspective:

According to our own CIA, not the most "bleeding-heart" of sources:

44th from the best in infant mortality (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html)

50th in the world in life expectancy (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html)

From the WHO:

We're 72nd in overall system effectiveness. (http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_performance_ranks.html)

Yet we spend the 2nd highest % of GDP in the world on healthcare. (http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_ 2005.html)

The system is broken. This first try at fixing it won't be perfect, but it's time to get off our asses. It's been 60 years since Truman first started talking about universal coverage.

so cuz the system is broken you propose we just le tthe gov tell us how what and when we do somthing?? not sure if you havnt followed for the last ummm i dont know ho wmany years but it seems that they dont get much right..


OBAMA BROKE INTO MY HOUSE AND SOLD MY STUFF FOR CRACK!!!!!!!!!

[DFab]

No. Nice try though.
So you being forced to pay for socialized military, police, and fire protection is OK, while you being force to pay for socialized health insurance is tyranny?


No of course not. So you don't mind being forced to pay for someone's emergency care, but it's horribly unjust for you to be forced to pay for someone's primary care?




If you would please show me where government has ever run ANYTHING, that lowered costs and was more efficient. We will be borrowing every cent to pay for this (or taxing it out of the economy). Either way, it will hurt us far more then doing nothing.Medicare is more efficient than private insurance, 4% overhead cost versus 20% (or 2% vs 15%, depending the source of the numbers). It also costs less per treatment.

Doing nothing is unsustainable. Health care costs are eating too much of our GDP. Borrowing or taxing to create an efficient, fair, sustainable and universal health insurance system will save money in the long run.


Mandating coverages and mandating coverage for pre-existing conditions will drive UP costs, not lower them.For our current system, this is true. If you consider the cost savings and controls available in a well managed single payer system then costs go down. It's also important to take other, somewhat intangible, things into account. For example, a healthy worker is a more efficient, better producing worker. It's easier to concentrate on innovating and creating wealth if you're not dying of a preventable disease.




Yet a great many do for minor conditions. Get the sniffles, go to the doctor. Get a skinned knee, go to the ER. We have become so entirely pain averse in this country that any amount of discomfort requires a specialist. I disagree. I know it happens, but I doubt very much that "a great many", or a statistically significant number people do this.

[dirkterrell]

Medicare is more efficient than private insurance, 4% overhead cost versus 20% (or 2% vs 15%, depending the source of the numbers). It also costs less per treatment.


Yeah, when you don't account for hidden costs and when hospitals have to push costs for Medicare/Medicaid patients off onto employers and consumers, your overhead costs are going to look good. Refusing to pay the cost of something isn't the same as reducing the cost.

Dirk

[mtnairlover]

Seeing specialists and doing special lab tests costs me too much. Some costs, even though I have insurance, are higher because of the service other than plain ole Dr visit. My mamogram lab fees were over 200. about 4 years ago, and back then, I had a hard time coming up with that money, so I held off on my next visit until this year. Luckily, I'm still healthy.

Now, imagine that same scenario going on over and over again. Also, imagine what would happen if I had gotten sick in between that time because I didn't do my check up. The costs would be higher as compared to just doing the preventative care. And the cycle just gets more out of control as I continue the scenario. This isn't just me that I'm speaking about either.

I don't go to the Dr, cuz I don't feel sick and when I do get sick, I still don't go. I don't even go when I crash my bike...it's a choice, yes, but those are the kinds of decisions being made.

Oh and as far as France is concerned where there is coverage for all, I don't hear people complaining and I certainly don't see a huge revolution going on cuz government is meddling. Hell, my Dad lives in France 3 months out of the year and he likes their health care coverage a whole lot more than here.

There are other countries where health care for all has been working just fine and no country that I've heard of has citizens who complain about the government taking over.

Lastly, it isn't the government that will be telling us what we can and cannot do, they will be regulating what the costs will be...they will have a little more oversight to keep costs reasonable for all. What ever form that takes...I'm not even sure, but it is not as those naysayers here have said. The government will not be telling us what we can and cannot do.

[DFab]

Yeah, when you don't account for hidden costs and when hospitals have to push costs for Medicare/Medicaid patients off onto employers and consumers, your overhead costs are going to look good. Refusing to pay the cost of something isn't the same as reducing the cost.

Dirk
What hidden costs?

Maybe what medicare/medicaid pays is fair, and hospitals are just gouging consumers, employers and private insurance companies. If a hospital is for-profit, isn't it supposed to charge as much as it can?

[Wintermute]

Yep, mtnairlover. After 60 years of endlessly talking about it and having the rest of the world pass us up (and reaping the benefits of having done so) it's time to start working on this.

Gotta go, talk to you guys later.

[Bueller]

Haven't read a bit of this except the first post. But I'll be willing to bet that everyone that is bitching about this has employer provided health insurance.
How 'bout it Pandora? :)

[mtnairlover]

Yeah...so I wonder if all those statisticians who have come up with the numbers for our future is if they've crunched the numbers for the past lets say 50 years. How have costs changed and how has coverage changed, etc?

I was curious about the GDP statement in another post, so I googled it to see for myself...

http://www.nolanchart.com/article2922.html

Pretty interesting that health care has surpassed housing...

[#1Townie]

Haven't read a bit of this except the first post. But I'll be willing to bet that everyone that is bitching about this has employer provided health insurance.
How 'bout it Pandora? :)

i dont...


OBAMA SUCKS!!!!!!!!!1

[dapper]

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OBAMA SUCKS!!!!!!!!!1

FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!! I WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO FUCK OBAMA!!!!! RUSH DOES NOT RUN THE COUNTRY!!!!!! FUCK OBAMA!!!!!!!
:viking:
It appears that Townie is obsessed with sticking it in Obama.


Townie should play 'the country' and Obama would be 'the people'.

Don't visualize Townie pounding Obama over and over again. :)

If Obama reached back to tickle Townie's balls. Would Townie think that Obama is gay? :lol:




You visualized Townie and Obama didn't you? That's sick and twisted!


Do you get the moral of the story? :twisted:

[DanFZ1]

WTF DUDE

RUSH ROCKS
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_A1ohZCdL1Es/RsG-7TQ05rI/AAAAAAAAAOo/nv7N3uR-qJs/s320/AlbumCovers-Rush-2112%281976%29.jpg

+1

[Pandora-11]

Haven't read a bit of this except the first post. But I'll be willing to bet that everyone that is bitching about this has employer provided health insurance.
How 'bout it Pandora? :)

Yep...I do....always have except when I had to buy COBRA. I haven't said anything. Just posted the magazine covers and sat back to watch.

[#1Townie]

:viking:
It appears that Townie is obsessed with sticking it in Obama.


Townie should play 'the country' and Obama would be 'the people'.

Don't visualize Townie pounding Obama over and over again. :)

If Obama reached back to tickle Townie's balls. Would Townie think that Obama is gay? :lol:




You visualized Townie and Obama didn't you? That's sick and twisted!


Do you get the moral of the story? :twisted:

bro thats just wrong.. i even got the pic from super troopers when the guy is in the bear humping suit.. wrong just wrong..:(


FUCK OBAMA

[Tipys]

I see this as a good thing. But maybe thats because Medicad has told me to swim up steam without a paddle. And being a am a pre existing condition I can't get P health insurance. I am not they only one this happens to. Some that are not for it, Let me ask you this what if you end up with cancer or some other life long illness lose your job and health care? I bet you would be kicking yourself in the ass for thinking this was a bad idea when you got to the point of not being able to afford your medication and or doctor visits.

[#1Townie]

i think about it alot.. and i dont know even if i had insurance if i would do much.. i dont even know if i would catch it in time.. im not one for hospitals and doctors.. i hate the places and unless im bleeding to death im not going to go..

[dirkterrell]

What hidden costs?


Policy is debated and set by Congress so all those expenses (Congressional staff) are paid for elsewhere. Private companies have to account for those costs.

Management costs for the people (salaries and support expenses) at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services are not included in the numbers.

Marketing costs (e.g. for the recent drug benefit) are not included.

Premiums are raised by the IRS so all of that cost is not included. In fact, employers are forced to incur expenses getting that money to the IRS so they are paying collection costs for Medicare.

Also, insurance companies have to pay state taxes on premiums but Medicare doesn't. Hardly fair to rail against private insurers' expenses when a fair chunk of those are forced on them by government.

I have some personal experience with hidden costs for government vs. industry. I work at an institution that builds spacecraft and does scientific research mainly for the government. For years we caught flack because our overhead rates were so much higher than universities and NASA centers. We argued that it wasn't a fair comparison because those entities didn't consider things like rent, utilities, etc in their overhead rates. Then a few years ago Congress declared that they had to do "full cost accounting" and all of a sudden we were a bargain.

Another issue I have is using cost/payments as the indicator for overhead efficiency. Many costs have nothing to do with the amount of the benefit paid. I would look at costs/person as a better indicator.

Dirk

[chanke4252]

^Good post.

I don't like Obama's proposed plan as I think it has a LOT of major faults that will negatively affect the situation. However, I also think the whole "fuck obama" approach is a waste of time. At least he is trying to do something major to attempt to fix the very messed up healthcare system that we are currently using that is obviously borked. Ideally we wouldn't need government intervention, but I don't have the slightest clue what else would be able to keep people from getting care and not paying or insurance companies and hospitals from reliably raising prices. Capitalism is great, but unless care is simply refused to people who can't pay for it then the might of Reagan's undead will probably won't magically fix the problem. The longer we go without a solution, the more drastic a solution will be necessary to fix the issue. It's like only paying the minimum on your credit cards.

I guess, when it comes down to it, I am simply MUCH more likely to go along with someone who honestly (not just a couple of speeches) tries and doesn't quite hit the mark the first time than I am to go along with someone who cries and complains without bringing anything to the table. Trying and whining are two different things.

As for myself, I have halfway decent health insurance through work that I pay nothing for, in addition to a secondary plan that I pay for privately. I'm just fine within the current system, however I also don't want to have to spend any more of my paycheck on it if I don't have to, or risk losing the plan through work because it became too expensive for the company to pay for.

[#1Townie]

^Good post.
fuck obama
.



word

[Nick_Ninja]

So what's the answer Clownie?

[#1Townie]

a cival war??

[DavidofColorado]

How about a protest first?
http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Austin-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m8d1-Give-me-Liberty-or-give-me-taxes
What the video about half way down.

[chanke4252]

^^I like how this is attributed to obama and the dems as if he/they are doing something new with the horrendously ridiculous spending, but it was the bush admin who started handing out the cash in ridiculously large quantities to the failed businesses in the first place. I agree that the bailout/huge spending mentality is stupid, but I'm sorry to say that it's equally stupid to attribute it wholly to the left like so many people want to do.

Yes, I agree that obama is kind of a douche in many ways (bad initial ideas on healthcare reform, excessive amounts of spending right out of the gate), but youre kidding yourself if you think his style of douchebaggery is original and confined to the left. For some reason people seem to only be able to remember the past 6-9 months as if it were the beginning of recorded history and nothing similar happened before then. It's not like a former CEO of a "failing" company in the financial district wasn't given the green light to hand out billions of dollars to his chronies without restriction, paper trails, or accountability, right?

If you are going to criticize, do not do so selectively trying to attribute this to one specific group when the previous asshats did almost the exact same thing. They're all dipshits, and they all (on both sides, outside of a small minority) grew some big hairy balls and decided that they no longer had to pay attention to overwhelming public outcries regarding excessively abrupt, expensive, and inappropriate high profile government action and spending.

I guess I just don't see the point in shutting your brain off and seemingly intentionally forgetting the past for the sake of some "right versus left" mentality. How about blaming those who are actually responsible and trying to keep it from happening again rather than turning it into a seasaw of intentionally stupidity where we simply alternate getting screwed by one side and then the other?

You know what I want? An honest and truly well intentioned right-ish wing politician who actually has any pull what so ever within the party. I'm talking about someone who is ACTUALLY right wing rather than this faux-right-wing bullshit that we've had in recent history. As much as I love religious fundamentalists and all that :banghead:.

[#1Townie]

How about a protest first?
http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Austin-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m8d1-Give-me-Liberty-or-give-me-taxes
What the video about half way down.
no way man the hippis did that and got nothing.. lets riot!!!!
















i kid i kid..

[chanke4252]

no way man the hippis did that and got nothing.. lets riot!!!!

i kid i kid..

I don't know, I think a riot on capital hill might do some good sadly enough. Politicians being scared first hand of the rightly pissed off people is better than politicians being scared of losing corporate funding and not getting reelected.

Too bad we've been pussified into being all "civil" and not using foul language or farting in public and whatnot. I think we have a number of years more of being anally reamed by the government before people are pissed off enough to organize and take an active role. Voting is good, but it doesn't do mean nearly as much when the same group of jaded, corrupt politicians have the market cornered and the only people who can REALLY run are those with big corporate money backing them.

I think there should be a vote at the end of various terms in which there is a yay or nay vote whether people think someone did a good job. Depending on the percentage of yay or nay votes the person might get a nice bonus, or 18 mighty kicks in the nuts.

[dirkterrell]

50th in the world in life expectancy (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html)

...

Yet we spend the 2nd highest % of GDP in the world on healthcare. (http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_ 2005.html)

The system is broken.

Interesting research paper on this topic:

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=psc_working_papers

The abstract:


Life expectancy in the United States fares poorly in international comparisons, primarily
because of high mortality rates above age 50. Its low ranking is often blamed on a poor
performance by the health care system rather than on behavioral or social factors. This paper
presents evidence on the relative performance of the US health care system using death
avoidance as the sole criterion. We find that, by standards of OECD countries, the US does well
in terms of screening for cancer, survival rates from cancer, survival rates after heart attacks and
strokes, and medication of individuals with high levels of blood pressure or cholesterol. We
consider in greater depth mortality from prostate cancer and breast cancer, diseases for which
effective methods of identification and treatment have been developed and where behavioral
factors do not play a dominant role. We show that the US has had significantly faster declines in
mortality from these two diseases than comparison countries. We conclude that the low longevity
ranking of the United States is not likely to be a result of a poorly functioning health care system.
From the conclusion:


The question that we have posed is much simpler: does a poor performance by the US
health care system account for the low international ranking of longevity in the US? Our answer
is, “no”.Dirk

[mtnairlover]

Good logic and nice research, but is doesn't answer the topic at hand, which is the lack of health insurance for all, not the quality of health care.

[dirkterrell]

Good logic and nice research, but is doesn't answer the topic at hand, which is the lack of health insurance for all, not the quality of health care.

I was addressing a specific claim made in the course of the discussion, as quoted.

As for health insurance, I keep seeing the number 46 million uninsured. What are the demographics of those numbers?

Dirk

[mtnairlover]

I found some stats too on the US Census Bureau's website (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/hlthins.html) about health insurance and who is covered by what type, etc.

It still isn't working, because people are choosing to not be covered at all, because of the costs, or whatever. People are losing jobs and are no longer covered, etc.

It must be nice to have health insurance completely paid for by your employer. Working in a school district, we did not get that benefit. I paid 450 a month for myself and my kids...I was seriously debating dropping it because I couldn't make it from month to month when my ex decided to stop child support. Now that I work at a for profit school, my cost is half that for myself and my kids. I still pay out of pocket for lab fees, for vision exams and glasses/contacts for all of us, etc. When people have to pick and choose between making ends meet and health insurance, sometimes they make the decision to make ends meet, which is a detriment in the long run, because it means they put their health at risk and they put their family's health at risk as well as put their jobs at risk. And the snowball becomes an avalanche...

Oh and to answer your question about demographics about uninsured...my real estate agent who is in her 60's just dropped her private insurance because it cost her 720 per month. She lives in a very affluent neighborhood in Loveland and is well educated. I have a feeling that the demographics will range widely.

[dirkterrell]

I found some stats too on the US Census Bureau's website (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/hlthins.html) about health insurance and who is covered by what type, etc.

It still isn't working, because people are choosing to not be covered at all, because of the costs, or whatever.

I took a quick glance at the 2007 numbers (which lists 47 million uninsured, or about 15% of the US population). The first thing that jumps out at me is that 17.6 +/- 0.5 million or 37% of the uninsured are people who make $50K/year or more. The numbers are in this table (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/hlthin07/p60no235_table6.pdf).

I'll continue to look at the numbers. Thanks for the link.

Dirk

[mtnairlover]

I took a quick glance at the 2007 numbers (which lists 47 million uninsured, or about 15% of the US population). The first thing that jumps out at me is that 17.6 +/- 0.5 million or 37% of the uninsured are people who make $50K/year or more. The numbers are in this table (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/hlthin07/p60no235_table6.pdf).

I'll continue to look at the numbers. Thanks for the link.

Dirk

Sure. It's kinda sad that we still haven't been able to figure this out. Oh and I found an article written by a Canadian physician and health policy analyst. It's pretty eye-opening and dis spells some of the myths us Americans tend to make up about our Canandian cousins' government run health insurance.

Here it is... (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-rachlis3-2009aug03,0,538126.story)

[dirkterrell]

Wow, I just came across another very interesting number in that table: 9.7 million of the 47 million are not US citizens.

Dirk

[mtnairlover]

Yeah...take a look at the article written by that Canadian physician. He comes up with numbers like how much we spend in GDP as compared to Canada. We're screwing ourselves no matter which way you look at it. I'm not even gonna talk about illegals because every country has that problem, yet we're still spending more in GDP.

[Pandora-11]

The latest town hall meeting video. Carl Ellison

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8VU_dS_3OU



What's wrong with fixing the parts that need fixing? Getting Trevor insurance though he has a preexisting condition. Working to lower premiums. Is there a reason that we have to throw the baby out with the bath water? Is there a reason that we have to hand over our life choices to a gov't that hasn't been able to run other programs successfully?
Do I have to be accountable to a govt about what I eat, the care I can have, how much I weigh?

It's been said already..." A govt who is big enough to give you everything, is big enough to take everything you have."
I understand there are issues. Answering them with socialism and govt control is NOT the answer IMO.

[mtnairlover]

The government control you are talking about doesn't happen in any of the socialist countries. I don't know what kind of insurance you have, but mine allows me to see only certain "in plan" doctors. Canandians can see whomever they please under their government run plan. Read the article I posted. It is quite eye-opening.

People tend to blow things out of proportion when something looks like it might go against their beliefs. You need to dig deeper and get information straight from the source. That town hall meeting sounded like a whole lot of fearful people reacting on information that wasn't complete.

The insurance problems we have are because of that and because we have health care related companies wanting more of that American apple pie.

[Pandora-11]

People tend to blow things out of proportion when something looks like it might go against their beliefs. You need to dig deeper and get information straight from the source. That town hall meeting sounded like a whole lot of fearful people reacting on information that wasn't complete.


I would echo that back to you. I am very happy with the digging I do and have done. I regularly read info daily....and I feel my education in this matter is commendable. I've had an interest in politics for a very long time.
My insurance is school insurance. I do have to select out of a group of doctors.....but I'll be honest with you. I have never felt that my care was compromised.

People can tell me all they want about how great they feel this will be. In the end....and I like to follow things through to the end......I do not want the govt involved in my health care. Chalk it up to fear if you want.....but there are two sides to this issue...and FEAR is not one of them.

[Pandora-11]

It doesn't make sense to model our health care system after a country where the health care system is deemed unconstitutional. It doesn't make sense to model after a country where the quality of coverage is less than what we currently have. Furthermore it doesn't make sense to model after a country where citizens flock across the border to seek treatment in our country.

-Gabe Murphy-

[whitebrad]

I contend that the debate is being shaped so that our healthcare "system" is being made out to be on the brink of failure. That if something isn't done as soon as possible, our "grandparents" will all die horrible deaths that will weigh on our conscience for generations. This is fallacious and designed to cram a horrible bill down our throats. It is becoming Obama's trademark to make everything a crisis that has to be taken care of right away, without our elected representatives even reading the legislation that they are voting upon.

Frankly, for me, the debate is not whether something has to be done, but rather, who's responsibility is it? Is your life, my responsibility? Do you have the right to use the power of government to make it so? For me, the answer to both of these questions is a visceral 'no'.

Does that make me uncaring? Cold? Evil? Desirous that all poor people die? No, despite efforts by Wintermute and others to portray me as such. It's far easier to just create this strawman and have everyone emote about it.

Where is the line between what I am responsible for in my life and what others are REQUIRED to take care of? That is the real debate that goes unanswered by those on both the left and the right.

Cathy, Wintermute, et al. Do I have the right to come into your homes and take your TV because I didn't feel it was necessary to save up for one myself? Is that ethical and moral? Your answer is probably no. Therefore you cannot empower government to do the same and have any moral standing.

not one to really even care, as talk is just talk and nothing will ever be done about it, but a healthcare system is more constitutional than most of the policies followed by our government, ESPECIALLY if it is being paid for with INCOME TAX, though it is probably not...

as you all probably well know, a direct tax (e.g. income tax) MUST BE APPORTIONED... and apportioned means distributed to its citizens. this would be an actual model of what the founding fathers meant as an apportioned tax, where it is distributed (in the form of a service, and directly applied,) and distributed to EVERYONE and if handled correctly, (which i doubt), fairly, helping all of its citizens...

the funny thing about parties is that they are meant to service the elites. this may seem strange to you, but the political parties, and the political establishment, are actually heavily invested in the system as is, in the fact that division IS conquering, especially when the divided public feels it has a choice...

this division has been state sponsored and exploited very well, which was actually started by the federalists... (post Bacon and Shay rebellion...)but anywhoo... i would venture to say (and don't take this the wrong way, or anything) that most every one of us on here is NOT a political elite, and that we all have more in common with the crack smoking criminal and the poor outcast and the homeless than we have in common with the political elites... (if not from your perspectives, than from the perspective of the elites...)

to the elites, each of us are just a matrix-like investment... we are good for the government as necessity, as they derive their power through us, but we are expendable, as they abuse that power for themselves... sort of like the whole conscription thing in the civil war... an elite could pay their way out of service to the Yankee (federal) troops, and draft poor draftees with the money they pay to serve in their place... OF COURSE, the whole civil war was illegal as hell and the whole precedent that Lincoln set is the start of some of the most interesting rape/pillages of the constitution, but in the constitution, should states wish, they are supposed to be able to seceed at any time... so Lincoln had to suspend due process and all of that... but i digress (alot in this post.. phew!)

[chanke4252]

Even more good posts dirk. I'm more a lefty than a righty and am not against government sponsored healthcare depending on the way it is implemented, but it's refreshing to see someone who is who is citing actual numbers rather than some right wing buzz word and rhetoric to support their right leaning opinions. I wish more conservatives were way rather than shouting buzz words and pretending that they stand on some sort of objective moral high ground (which doesn't exist).

[Pandora-11]

The actual numbers don't always tell the truth about things. Numbers can be made to say whatever you want them to.... but you know that. Nice to look at. WorldHealthOrganization doesn't put out their statistics on best health care anymore. There are two many variables.
Right wing buzz is often a way to say the opposite of whatever the other side wants to believe. It's a polarizing issue for many....the difference between pragmatism and principle. It's ok to want different things.

[chanke4252]

No, you're right, the numbers don't always tell the truth. However, trying to draw conclusions not attempting to use any hard data at all is much worse imo, which is typically what I see when topics like these come up.

[Pandora-11]

Sometimes hard data is not all there is to consider.

[puckstr]

I don't has no health insurance. Is Obammy gonna takes care of me?

[dirkterrell]

The next number that jumped out at me was the 8.1 million under 18 in the table. That really surprised me because I thought Medicaid/CHIP was supposed to provide coverage for kids whose families couldn't afford their insurance. I did some digging around and found something else that surprised me. According to this report (http://ccf.georgetown.edu/index/cms-filesystem-action?file=strategy%20center/eligibleuninsured/eligibleuninsuredccf.pdf), 70% of the kids eligible for Medicaid coverage don't get it because they aren't enrolled in the program. And a staggering 93% of the eligible but unenrolled are "low income" (which they define as family income 200% below the federal poverty level).

So, 5 million of these kids are already eligible but aren't getting the coverage for one reason or another. Rather than a wholesale redesign of the healthcare system, maybe we ought to make a better effort to enroll those that are already eligible? That still leaves 3 million children that aren't covered and I do firmly believe that should be addressed. My preference would be to have that done by private charities rather than the government.

On to more numbers...

Dirk

[Pandora-11]

Dirk,
I do love that you have the time and resources to do this. Great job. I do want the truth of it.

[Shea]

I have a good friend who is an ER doc in Vancouver. We have had many LONG discussions on the benefits of their health care system v. ours. Despite the glowing utopia that it is made out to be (especially when compared to our "heartless system") it does have some major drawbacks....

1. Care is not immediate. There is rationing as healthcare is a finite resource (as are all goods and services, econ 101). As my doc friend stated it, unless you are a hockey player or a friend you stand in line, a lot. GDP costs, which the article Cathy posted used to proclaim their system better, are transferred to the employer. Example, here I have a doctor's appointment, I'm gone for a couple hours. In Canada, I have a doctor's appointment, I take the day off because I'm waiting forever. The lost productivity is not reported because it's extreme in any sort of socialized system.

2. Canadian healthcare is run by the provinces not the central government. This makes it at least somewhat more responsive to the concerns of the customers then the bloated federal system(s) being proposed.

3. Medical workers hate it. In order to manage costs, medical workers are forced to work long hours, under poor conditions for little pay (relative). Nurses, according to Mike (ER doc), are the hardest hit and quality of service suffers.

Many of you want universal, single payer healthcare for a variety of reasons...fine. I am, obviously, passionately opposed to it on prinicipled reasons. Control is the fast track towards tyranny and universal healthcare is control in extreme. You want to poo-poo this point, cool. But answer me these...

1. If we give health insurance to 40+ million more individuals without increasing the number of doctors will the quality and availability of care increase or decrease?

2. If we give health insurance to 40+ million more individuals will the costs associated with heath care go up or down? Justify your answer with logic.

3. If we force companies and individuals to have health insurance, at the same time increasing the cost of private insurance while offering a tax subsidized public option, what will happen to private insurance? Once again, justify your answer with logic.

4. What has the government ever run that was more efficient, costed less and provided better service then the private sector?

5. Despite the cries that our system is broken, that people are dying in the streets because we are a heartless society and our healthcare system is, frankly utter shit....Why do people come to our country, from Canada, Britian, etc, when they are sick? Why is it that if socialized systems are so beautiful and desirable that people with means don't want to be treated in them?

6. What will be the economic costs associated with the various proposed bills? Are we willing to pay an additional 21% of our paychecks for an increase of 2 years for the aggregate life expectancy? What will an additional $1 trillion in debt do for our nation? What effect will the higher tax rates (for everyone) and debt servicing have on our economy in total?

7. Please explain the origins of your right to my labor for your own ends. Further, explain the constitutional basis by which you can empower government to take my labor for your own purposes.

8. Will the further errosion of the individual in favor of the collective have any negative consequences? Will the constant drumbeat that we as individuals lack the capability to fend for ourselves, provide for ourselves, or have the power to generate comfort in our own lives, by our own hands, have any negative psychological impact what so ever? Would you teach your children this?

[Shea]

For you sycophants out there, you better report me to the Gestapo:

http://www.redstate.com/jeff_emanuel/2009/08/04/call-for-informants-if-you-oppose-obamacare-the-white-house-wants-to-know-about-it/

Tyranny begins when the government tells you to inform on your neighbors. Anyone have a Guy Fawkes mask I can borrow?

[Nick_Ninja]

For you sycophants out there, you better report me to the Gestapo:

http://www.redstate.com/jeff_emanuel/2009/08/04/call-for-informants-if-you-oppose-obamacare-the-white-house-wants-to-know-about-it/

Tyranny begins when the government tells you to inform on your neighbors. Anyone have a Guy Fawkes mask I can borrow?

I do ....... but it's Guido

http://www.kimpix.net/cache/2008/06/guyfawkes.jpg

[Shea]

I do ....... but it's Guido



Hey, whatever works man :)

[dirkterrell]

For you sycophants out there, you better report me to the Gestapo:

http://www.redstate.com/jeff_emanuel/2009/08/04/call-for-informants-if-you-oppose-obamacare-the-white-house-wants-to-know-about-it/

Tyranny begins when the government tells you to inform on your neighbors. Anyone have a Guy Fawkes mask I can borrow?



There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.Wow. I wonder how they define "disinformation"? I'm sure they'll straighten us all out. :)

Dirk

[Shea]

Wow. I wonder how they define "disinformation"? I'm sure they'll straighten us all out. :)


I believe it is anyone who disagrees with their policies Dirk. As such I expect to be in a concentration camp by noon.


...and storming the wire by 12:01

[dirkterrell]

Ok, as I continue to look at the numbers, I continue to be somewhat surprised at what I see vis a vis what the government-run health care proponents say. For this round, I looked at the claim that it is the poor that are the ones that are being hurt by lack of insurance since richer people can afford it. But the Census numbers from the site that Cathy linked to tell a different story.

I went through the Census reports on health insurance and pulled out the numbers on total population, total number of uninsured, and the numbers of people without insurance in the four categories that the Census Bureau compiles:

<$25K
$25K-$50K
$50K-$75K
$75K+

I went back through 1995 since it appears they changed their reporting method and the numbers weren't given in the same way in previous years. But that gives us over a decade of data to look at. A graph (Shea claps) is the easiest way to see what's been happening:

http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/health_insurance_census_data.gif

So, what does it show us? First, the dark blue curve is the percentage of the population that is uninsured. That has remained essentially flat at about 15%.

The other curves show how the people in various income brackets have fared. The teal colored one is what most might call the "middle class" ($25K-$50K) and it also has remained relatively flat. That is, insurance coverage for the middle class is essentially the same today as it was in 1995.

The yellow curve shows the percentage of the uninsured population that makes less than $25, i.e. "the poor". They have seen what can only be called significant improvement, from ~45% of the uninsured population in 1995 to less than 30% in 2007.

The red and pink curves ($50K-$75K and greater than $75K respectively) show what has happened for "the rich". In the upper income bracket, the percentage of uninsured has nearly tripled. For all this talk about "the poor", it looks like we need to figure out why "the rich" have growing numbers of uninsured while "the poor" have seen decreasing numbers.

So, that answers one part of the question of the demographics of the uninsured. I have the Excel spreadsheet I created if anyone wants it.

Dirk

[DFab]

I have a good friend who is an ER doc in Vancouver. We have had many LONG discussions on the benefits of their health care system v. ours. Despite the glowing utopia that it is made out to be (especially when compared to our "heartless system") it does have some major drawbacks....

1. Care is not immediate. There is rationing as healthcare is a finite resource (as are all goods and services, econ 101). As my doc friend stated it, unless you are a hockey player or a friend you stand in line, a lot. GDP costs, which the article Cathy posted used to proclaim their system better, are transferred to the employer. Example, here I have a doctor's appointment, I'm gone for a couple hours. In Canada, I have a doctor's appointment, I take the day off because I'm waiting forever. The lost productivity is not reported because it's extreme in any sort of socialized system.

There's lost productivity in both systems. Sick people are less productive than healthy people. There is rationing in both systems as well. Ours is rationed by cost. If you can't afford it, you don't get it.



2. Canadian healthcare is run by the provinces not the central government. This makes it at least somewhat more responsive to the concerns of the customers then the bloated federal system(s) being proposed.
I thought this was a list of "major drawbacks" of the Canadian system.



3. Medical workers hate it. In order to manage costs, medical workers are forced to work long hours, under poor conditions for little pay (relative). Nurses, according to Mike (ER doc), are the hardest hit and quality of service suffers.
Plenty of people hate our system too. Ask a few doctors how they like dealing with private insurance companies. No system is going to be perfect. And nobody is forced to do anything, they can work in some other profession if they choose. It's not like they'll lose their coverage if they switch jobs.



Many of you want universal, single payer healthcare for a variety of reasons...fine. I am, obviously, passionately opposed to it on prinicipled reasons. Control is the fast track towards tyranny and universal healthcare is control in extreme. You want to poo-poo this point, cool. But answer me these...
Please don't conflate universal insurance with universal health care. This is a common conservative misconception.



1. If we give health insurance to 40+ million more individuals without increasing the number of doctors will the quality and availability of care increase or decrease?
Obviously, availability will decrease, and it's easy to argue that quality would also decrease, but the premise of your question is flawed. Who says we can't have more doctors?



2. If we give health insurance to 40+ million more individuals will the costs associated with heath care go up or down? Justify your answer with logic.
A well constructed single payer system will cost less and cover everyone.
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_system_cost.php?page=all



3. If we force companies and individuals to have health insurance, at the same time increasing the cost of private insurance while offering a tax subsidized public option, what will happen to private insurance? Once again, justify your answer with logic.
You need to justify the many assumptions of your question. How are we increasing the cost of private insurance? How is the public option subsidized? The public option defined in current legislation is payed for through premiums. By law, it would have to set premiums at a level sufficient to cover all payouts plus overhead.




4. What has the government ever run that was more efficient, costed less and provided better service then the private sector?
The VA hospitals, medicare, medicaid. And please keep in mind that the service provided by private insurers includes doing everything they can to dump your ass as soon as you turn into a liability.



5. Despite the cries that our system is broken, that people are dying in the streets because we are a heartless society and our healthcare system is, frankly utter shit....Why do people come to our country, from Canada, Britian, etc, when they are sick? Why is it that if socialized systems are so beautiful and desirable that people with means don't want to be treated in them?
Our system works great, for those with "means". That's why they come here. Our system sucks, and frankly, is utter shit for people without "means". Unless of course you really lack "means", then your covered under medicaid. Besides, people leave our country to get health care too. Google "medical tourism".



6. What will be the economic costs associated with the various proposed bills? Are we willing to pay an additional 21% of our paychecks for an increase of 2 years for the aggregate life expectancy? What will an additional $1 trillion in debt do for our nation? What effect will the higher tax rates (for everyone) and debt servicing have on our economy in total?
Where does this "additional 21% for two years" come from? Sounds like it comes from the same place as "Obamacare is going to make all private insurance illegal!!!!!". I.E. Conservative FUD.



7. Please explain the origins of your right to my labor for your own ends. Further, explain the constitutional basis by which you can empower government to take my labor for your own purposes.
Section 8

“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#IMPOST) and Excises (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#EXCISE), to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE) of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#IMPOST) and Excises (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#EXCISE) shall be uniform throughout the United States;”

Collect taxes to pay debts for the “GeneralWelfare” (healthcare)and “Shall be uniform (universal) throughout the United States”. If healthcare fits Section 8 then we collect taxes and see to the “GeneralWelfare”.


Please explain to me why you don't seem to mind some socialized services, but when it comes to health insurance it's tyranny, control, and theft of your labor.




8. Will the further errosion of the individual in favor of the collective have any negative consequences? Will the constant drumbeat that we as individuals lack the capability to fend for ourselves, provide for ourselves, or have the power to generate comfort in our own lives, by our own hands, have any negative psychological impact what so ever? Would you teach your children this?

ANARCHY in the USA!! Whooo! But seriously, why have humans come together to live in society at all? Is it because we're better off when we work together towards common goals?

[dirkterrell]

Please don't conflate universal insurance with universal health care. This is a common conservative misconception.


If the government controls the insurance, they will control the health care industry.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

But seriously, why have humans come together to live in society at all? Is it because we're better off when we work together towards common goals?

True but government isn't the only means by which we can work together.

Dirk

[mtnairlover]

The free market system is a lovely concept, but put people into the mix and you get a completely distorted and abused system. That's what happened with the oil companies, Wall Street, housing/mortgages, etc.

The health care system is no different because it is run by health insurance companies whose bottom line is the almighty dollar, not American's overall health.

First, Pandora, I did not make my comment in reference to you. I made my comment in reference to the people talking in that town hall meeting. After listening to the reaction that first guy gave, you could tell he was disturbed, and that was an emotional reaction, which is typically an over-reaction. Not only that, but his claims were blown out of proportion.

The thing is, we have a problem and the problem has been around a very long time and although well-meaning politicians have tried to fix things, those fixes have done nothing to curb the rising costs of health care and health insurance.

Not only do we spend more of our GDP on health care, but so does our government. It outspends all the other nations that have a universal health care system.

The reason we use Canada as a model is because until they established their one-payer system, our numbers were mirror images. We come from the same ancestors, we have the same health-related issues, etc. But, in 1970, when Canada instituted its universal health care system, their numbers began to improve as far as birth and longevity. That’s why we use Canada as a comparison…that and because America is the stand out when it comes to universal coverage amongst industrialized nations, so it’s used a lot to compare good and bad on both sides.

There is a whole lot of information out there that explains why our health care/insurance system needs repair. I’m linking some of those reasons below:

Medical Bankruptcy (http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf)

Reasons for foreclosure in the US (http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=christopher_robertson)


For comparison to Canada…

Bankruptcy in Canada (http://www.bankruptcy-canada.ca/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptcy-in-canada.htm)

Foreclosure in Canada (http://www.canada-foreclosure-homes.com/Reasons-for-Foreclosures-in-Canada.html)

And what about those pesky Canadians that keep coming over here to get their health care?

There’s not as many as you think…
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l12/mtnairlover/019_T1.gif

This is only one chart covering a very specific health issue, but there are more, here… (http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/21/3/19)


More Americans leave this country who cannot afford the high cost of health care. (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Millions-of-Californian-Seek-Healthcare-in-Mexico-112669.shtml)

Again, the numbers of people who are medical tourists is rather small. But when you get to a U.S. border, the numbers stop being small very quickly. As UCLA’s Center for Health Policy Research determined in a recent study, “at least 952,000 California adults – 488,000 of them described by the study as Mexican immigrants and about a quarter as non-Latino whites – head south annually for their medical, dental and prescription services.” And why are they going, aside from the obvious concerns of cost and lack of insurance? See if this resonates with you: “Among non-Latino whites, prescription drugs were the most common medical service obtained in Mexico.” Yeah, that’s right. We have American citizens going to Mexico to take advantage of their health care.

http://healthcare.change.org/blog/view/traveling_for_care_--_outside_the_us
also
http://www.patientsbeyondborders.com/

So, why is it so important to fix the broken system? Because lack of affordable health care for all affects everyone, all companies, all institutes, everyone in this country. If you are sick and can’t afford the medical bills, how likely are you to buy that shiny new car? That’s not good for the auto makers. If you are sick and can’t afford medical bills, how likely are you to go to a restaurant once a week, once a month, once a year? That’s bad for the restaurant business…and the story goes on and on for all business in America and the numbers of people who cannot afford health care are constantly increasing.

Debunking the free marketeers... (http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/mythbusting-canadian-healthcare-part-ii-debunking-free-marketeers)

What are the costs of not reforming health care? (http://www.creators.com/opinion/daily-editorials/the-high-cost-of-not-reforming-health-care.html)

An industry's answer to high health care costs.. (http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2008/05/automakers_jobs.html)

Moderates explain single payer system: (http://themoderatevoice.com/36499/canadian-health-care-socialism-when-will-americans-learn/)

A GOP Rep. admits that health insurance companies control the market and dictate medical decisions... (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/17/gop-rep-health-insurance/)

In 2008, health care spending in the United States reached $2.4 trillion, and was projected to reach $3.1 trillion in 2012. Health care spending is projected to reach $4.3 trillion by 2016.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

[dirkterrell]

See if this resonates with you: “Among non-Latino whites, prescription drugs were the most common medical service obtained in Mexico.”


Which prescription drugs are we talking about?

Dirk

[Pandora-11]

I'm curious as to why out Canadian CSCers haven't voiced an opinion here. Bob? Canuck? any others?



The Ugly Truth about the Canadian Health care System (by a Canadian)

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

[Pandora-11]

This Exhibit 1 is confusing to me. The author choose 136 clinics to call about ambulatory patients in three selected states that give numbers for a six month time period eleven years ago.....and even then the numbers probably reflect those who can pay to do this. Then it states the majority of the clinics show less than 100 patients. I don't know about you....but that doesn't look good to me. What am I missing?
Cathy, the two sources? One is an Obama site and the other is a software company sponsored by a Health company.
I don't know....I'm really trying to read these things objectively and having a hard time.

[BrianM]

I'm just some dumb new guy, but we already have 'free' (Gov Sponsored) health care in the US. IHS, or Indian Health Service. My wife has been a pharmacist in this Very messed up system for 6 years. We're not talking about 'theory' here, but real world practice.

Track down anyone with experience in that system for anecdotal evidence. There May be numbers out there to be analyzed, but I wouldn't have a clue where to find those.

Our opinion is.. well, our opinion. Just thought knowing that the US Gov. has already had their hand in a 'free' health care system would provide another data point.

[Shea]

There's lost productivity in both systems. Sick people are less productive than healthy people. There is rationing in both systems as well. Ours is rationed by cost. If you can't afford it, you don't get it.

"There is no system that provides for unlimited wants with limited resources. Our choice is whether it should be rationed by free people making their own economic calculations or by a bureaucracy run by Congressional committee (whose members, like the Russian commissars, will, I guarantee you, still get the best health care the gulag hospitaligo can provide). Free people making their own choices only consume what they value above price, using funds they have earned or been given voluntarily. With socialized medicine health care is rationed by committees of politicians trying to get re-elected and increase their own power, and people consume as much of it as the commissars deem permissible. I do not find these tough alternatives to choose between." - Clifford Asness, PhD Health Care Mythology Myth #6

http://www.stumblingontruth.com/



I thought this was a list of "major drawbacks" of the Canadian system.No, the difference between the proposed federal system versus a province (state) run system there.



Plenty of people hate our system too. Ask a few doctors how they like dealing with private insurance companies. No system is going to be perfect. And nobody is forced to do anything, they can work in some other profession if they choose. It's not like they'll lose their coverage if they switch jobs.Well perhaps you should reread the mandatory coverage required by the federal government. Sounds like being "forced" to do something to me. I'm glad that you acknowledge that no system is perfect. Given the alternatives I would prefer our "not perfect system" (with some tort reform, transparency of costs and some head cracking in the insurance industry) versus a government run single payer system that costs me another 21% of my paycheck.



Please don't conflate universal insurance with universal health care. This is a common conservative misconception.As Dirk already stated, once they control the purse strings, they control the system. If I pay you and you have no option to go anywhere else, I can pretty much tell you to do anything I want, yes?



Obviously, availability will decrease, and it's easy to argue that quality would also decrease, but the premise of your question is flawed. Who says we can't have more doctors?And what incentive is there to have more doctors? Over work? Less pay? Extremely stressful working environments? I'm sure they will be lining up at the door.
So you accept that availability will decrease and quality will decrease. So why are you pushing so hard for it?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/07/01/better_health_care_97244.html

Yeah, looks awesome! 23 hours of waiting????



A well constructed single payer system will cost less and cover everyone.
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_system_cost.php?page=allSee below for the CBO report on the current round of plans. Not nearly as "optimistic" as all those posted by those gentlemen.

Also: http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=ah.vuAG5B4iU



You need to justify the many assumptions of your question. How are we increasing the cost of private insurance? How is the public option subsidized? The public option defined in current legislation is payed for through premiums. By law, it would have to set premiums at a level sufficient to cover all payouts plus overhead.Private insurance will increase because a) the government will mandate levels of coverage and b) the government will not allow increases in costs for pre-existing conditions so the cost will have to be spread over the aggregate. Both of these will raise the cost of private insurance. Now the public option (that is not covered by premiums) is funded by tax increases, it's the only way to come up with the massive cost of the program.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10464/hr3200.pdf

And that is after a 5.4% surcharge on the "rich" and closing various loopholes like not counting health insurance that a company provides as income.



The VA hospitals, medicare, medicaid. And please keep in mind that the service provided by private insurers includes doing everything they can to dump your ass as soon as you turn into a liability. Are you really saying that VA hospitals are better, more efficient and provide greater care then a private hospital? Medicare/medicaid are going bankrupt, quality of care is pathetic and a bureaucratic nightmare.

Really? So government health care will be better at providing all the coverage you could ever want, whenever you want for lower cost? Delusional. Care MUST be rationed, just like in Canada, just like in Britain. If you are old, you're fucked. If you are a baby, you are fucked. Thing government care is all love and light? Read this about Dr. Ezekiel Emmanual, adviser to the President on health matters and (surprise) brother of the thug Rohm Emmanual:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Obama-advisor-would-deny-medical-care-to-seniors-demented-51414342.html

He further believes that babies, since they have not had the investment made into them in terms of education and "socialization" should be a lower medical priority then adolecents.

Yeah, I want these people in charge of my life...



Our system works great, for those with "means". That's why they come here. Our system sucks, and frankly, is utter shit for people without "means". Unless of course you really lack "means", then your covered under medicaid. Besides, people leave our country to get health care too. Google "medical tourism".Then why the takeover for EVERYONE?



Where does this "additional 21% for two years" come from? Sounds like it comes from the same place as "Obamacare is going to make all private insurance illegal!!!!!". I.E. Conservative FUD.21% increase in taxes to have a vaunted public/private insurance plan like France, from the conservative bastion of NPR:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273

2 year increase in life expectency versus France from the consevative bastion of the United Nations:
http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/wpp2006/WPP2006_Highlights_rev.pdf pg81-83



Section 8

“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#IMPOST) and Excises (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#EXCISE), to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE) of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#IMPOST) and Excises (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#EXCISE) shall be uniform throughout the United States;”

Collect taxes to pay debts for the “GeneralWelfare” (healthcare)and “Shall be uniform (universal) throughout the United States”. If healthcare fits Section 8 then we collect taxes and see to the “GeneralWelfare”.
Welfare, in 1787 didn't mean redistribution of wealth, or welfare as it is known today (or how you take it to justify massive government power). In federalist 41, James Madison stated that the only purpose of the clause was to empower Congress to promote the welfare of the state, not the individual (ie. justice, domestic tranquility, common defense, and liberty).

I'd like to see how you justify our current progressive income tax system as uniform.

Additionally I like how you completely ignored the first part of the question.



Please explain to me why you don't seem to mind some socialized services, but when it comes to health insurance it's tyranny, control, and theft of your labor. Please explain what socialized services I "don't seem to mind". Further please explain how government forcing me to adhere to your ideal, denying me choice over my own life and forcing me to take responsibility for others actions/choices/life as NOT tyranny.



ANARCHY in the USA!! Whooo! But seriously, why have humans come together to live in society at all? Is it because we're better off when we work together towards common goals?We have come together because it is advantages for us in pursuing our INDIVIDUAL goals. Individual liberty is the common goal. When you start trying to control me, then that is lost. But what common goals do you think we all should work together on?

[mtnairlover]

I dunno. I would like to ask Canadians and Britons and other Europeans their thoughts on their health care systems and see what they say...

Canadians thoughts on their health care...
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3122851

Britons thoughts on their health care...
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090702110154AAcddxi

What Europeans think of our health care system
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070930101532AA7liL5

What Germans think of their health care system
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=91971406

The Dutch and the French health care systems
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09207/986169-109.stm

What's so important to note is that the systems are different. Britain is a truly government-run system where the government employs the Drs (and yet, the British still prefer their system). The Canadian system is a truly single-payer system. France and the Netherlands are also different, but do not resemble Canada, or Britain.

As for finding articles that sway on the Obama side...a lot of those links I found are studies done by PhDs that were not conducted for Obama, but for research purposes.

And as for that YouTube video...those negative reactions make no sense, because right now, our rights are being dictated by our insurance companies...we are not in control of our own health care, the insurance companies are...not the government.

As far as what kinds of prescriptions are sought after in Mexico? I have no idea, but I found some info that sort of answers that question. I'm sure there's more info out there that more than likely has a break down of the numbers as to the people buying the meds cuz they're addicted as compared to those who just need it cheaply.

One person asks about buying meds in Mexico...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090217223832AAEGwNj

Biggest reason for buying meds elsewhere? Price.
http://drugs.about.com/od/costofdrugs/a/foreign_drugs.htm

And here's an article that talks about the restricted drugs that people can buy...
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19970515&slug=2539314