Electrician question

[mtnairlover]

What does it take ($) to replace aluminum wiring at the fuse box? I've got some issues with a townhome I put a bid on and it's bank-owned. I want the bank to take care of it, but being a bank-owned property, they don't like to take care of squat.

The thing is, it's a fire hazard.

This is what the inspector said:

Neutrals are bundles in neutral buss. 220v breaker for A/C does not have a handle tie. GFI breaker does not trip when tested. 110 volt conductors are aluminum. Recommend electrical system be evaluated and repaired by licensed electrician.

Anyone out there an electrician?

[dirkterrell]

Anyone out there an electrician?

Talk to Bueller.

Dirk

[mtnairlover]

Thanks.

[Shea]

I'm not an electrician, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night...

A handle tie is nothing. Easy fix.
GFI not tripping is relatively cheap and easy (unless it's wired wrong)
Rewiring the neutrals (think that's what he is saying) would just be labor.

Q: Are the conductors in the box aluminum or is he saying the distribution lines (that run to each outlet in the house) are aluminum?

If the former, a new box can be a couple hundred bucks. If its the latter you have to rewire the entire house with copper...$$$

[mtnairlover]

Pretty sure it's the former. The other answers you gave are basically what he described to me, as well.

[Devaclis]

Psh, I can do it. I am gonna need a few beers first, then I will go at it.

[Shea]

Psh, I can do it. I am gonna need a few beers first, then I will go at it.

DONT DO IT! You try to turn on your garbage disposal and the headlights on your neighbors car turn on...

[Shea]

Pretty sure it's the former. The other answers you gave are basically what he described to me, as well.

Cool, hopefully Bueller can help you out...and the bank pays for it :)

[mtnairlover]

Either way, I'm not asking for the moon or anything, but I think if I have an idea what it would take, then I can make a more informed decision.

I'm only asking the bank to share the cost of fix-up. There's plenty of other things I need to take care of that are not hazard issues.

[Ricky]

Make the bank pay for it. There's no reason they shouldn't. REO properties more commonly need fixes than non REO. Banks should be just as willing to do certain things, as a normal seller. If anything, just offer them $500 less for the costs to repair electrical.

[Filo]

I am going to be the voice on the contrarian (and Bueller does do this sort of stuff for a living, so he can over rule me).

Aluminum (Al) wiring is not, by itself, dangerous. All the mains distribution is Al. There are two problems with it - oxidation and thermal expansion. Oxidation can be mitigated by using one of the gooey antioxidants. Thermal expansion means that you should have the connectors tightened down every few years. The fix that most electricians are going to recommend for the Al wiring is pigtailing - where they attach a copper pig tail to the end of the wire and then tie that into the breaker or switch or outlet. I have heard different opinions on pig tailing, but it is very expensive and some say it leads to more fires than it stops.

There are outlets/switches/breakers specifically designed for Al wiring that resist screw back-out due to the greater thermal expansion of Al. Those are a bit spendy, but rewiring the whole house with copper is going to be stunningly, stupidly, aneurysm causing expensive. If it were my house, I would just make sure a licensed electrician tightens everything down and then not worry about it. You also get a warning before the house goes up in flames, because the outlet/switch that is going to go will get hot before it goes. I lived in a Al wired house for 10 years and it failed to catch fire.

Remember - I am not an electrician, so don't take anything I say as gospel, and get it checked by someone who knows what the hell they are talking about.


I had a GFCI outlet that didn't trip on my Al wired house. It turns out when they built the house the electrician thought a closet was the bathroom (before the walls went up) and routed the bathroom wiring to what would have been the light box. When they found the error, they pulled the wire into the attic, wrapped black to black and white to white with electrical tape and left the grounds hanging and not connected. No box, no wire nuts, nothing. The house was that way for 40 years until I had to get a rental license on it.

[Foolds]

Well Written Filo! Cathy that is my understanding as well.

[Krafty-1]

Connecting copper wiring to aluminum wiring = bad. You can do it but i wouldn't recommend it. You're better off getting the house re-wired than to try to mix and match metals. If you re-wire the house maybe you can upgrade your servie to a more robust panel.
Unless its a rental code violation I wouldn't worry about it. If you can get the bank to pay for it kudos to you.
To answer your money question your gonig to get a "depends" for an answer. Depends on house size, number of runs, number of circuits...blah, blah, blah.

[Shea]

Guys, she said that it's just the box that has aluminum blade connectors, not the house.

[Filo]

Guys, she said that it's just the box that has aluminum blade connectors, not the house.

I read the "110V conductors are aluminum" to mean the house wiring is aluminum. I am guessing the place was built in the late 60s/ early 70s. If that isn't true, then Cathy just has more useless drivel from me than she normally has.

[Foolds]

Any one know If FHA will finance a house with Alum wiring? your insurance will typically be more with alum wiring as well.

[mtnairlover]

lol...drivel? Never drivel...bs, maybe.

Ok, so it was built in '75. The inspector talked about pig-tailing as well. The biggest thing that stood out for me was "Unsafe". So, I will do what I can with the resources that I have. What the inspector said made sense to me. Take care of things at the box...GFI from outside, rather than trying to do all the outlets inside. Take care of the a/c with a handle-tie at the box, etc, etc.

Oh and yes, it will go FHA. I got that figured out right away. I don't need anymore let-downs.

[buzzardman36]

I'm a G.C. and have a good electrician. His name is Clint and his bussiness is "Zapp Electric". He works within the metro and mountain areas. Give him a call and tell him Clay Tarpley with American Building Services sent you his way. He's honest and fair priced. He's heading to Alaska for vacation later this week for a 10 day trip, so if he doesn't get back to you right away, that's why. The number: 720-272-3598

[Bueller]

What does it take ($) to replace aluminum wiring at the fuse box? I've got some issues with a townhome I put a bid on and it's bank-owned. I want the bank to take care of it, but being a bank-owned property, they don't like to take care of squat.

The thing is, it's a fire hazard.

This is what the inspector said:

Neutrals are bundles in neutral buss. 220v breaker for A/C does not have a handle tie. GFI breaker does not trip when tested. 110 volt conductors are aluminum. Recommend electrical system be evaluated and repaired by licensed electrician.

Anyone out there an electrician?
First off Filo is mostly correct and Krafty is mostly wrong.
Not sure what the inspector is talking about with the neutrals unless he means that multiple wires are landed under the same lugs. What manufacturer is the panel made by?
The handle tie is not a biggie, replacing the GFCI breaker is not a big problem either ($20 or so).
Aluminum wire is not a bad thing but Filo is right, the properties of aluminum make it an inferior connection but it is actually a good conductor. Pigtail the outlets using the (purple) specialty wire nuts to copper. Or you can make your own with normal wire nuts and fill them with some "Anti Ox".This also give you a chance to change the wiring method from "feed thru" to paralleled pigtails, this is also a code requirement.
If the wiring in the breaker box (or any screw connection) has oxidized it will create a poor connection which will generate heat, as the heat expands the wire it is soft enough it flattens and when it cools is will contract and over time it creates a looser and looser connection,. This in turn creates more heat and it starts arcing and this is where the wire starts oxidizing. Now you have a downward spiral to failure. This can cause damage to related equipment. Devices and breakers can be damaged beyond use and in some cases the panel can be damaged.
So a price range is impossible to estimate without a detailed inspection.
I do commercial work so I am giving you my price to do it (if I was asked for a price).
Pig tailing outlets $10 per
Breaker and handle tie $35
Panel pigtail or re torque or any possible repair (Hourly) best case 1 hr. Worse case panel replacement 4-6hrs

What the inspector said made sense to me. Take care of things at the box...GFI from outside, rather than trying to do all the outlets inside. Take care of the a/c with a handle-tie at the box, etc, etc
The worst cases I have seen are mostly receptacles in bedrooms (most use) but all recept are susceptible. The panel is easy to ID problems but you cant see behind devices. And insurance will drop for correcting these deficiencies.

And unless you plan on completly stripping all the sheetrock off the walls, rewiring the house is out of the question.

[Pharmgirl]

The people we bought our house from 2 years ago paid $6000 to have the pigtailing done with the copalum method. I'm glad to hear that our house probably won't burn down, because I was a bit skeptical. Our insurance didn't even ask us about the wiring.

[mtnairlover]

Bringing the thread back. So, I got a quote from the Real Estate agency that is selling the property for the bank. They went out and got quotes because of the inspection report.

:shocked:

Anyhoo, is there anyone here who can do an estimate for me between now and the time I close? I close on the 31st.