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View Full Version : tips for blind corners and switchbacks?



MattTLS
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 01:12 AM
Blind corners and switchbacks (particularly going downhill) often make me uncomfortable to the point that I sometimes 'freeze up' to an extent. Not a good thing should I need to change my line through the turn, I know, but I seem to have a bit of a bad habit that I'd like to work on. Whereas these situations are certainly different, the result can be the same for me. As for blind corners, even if I'm moving along at a fairly easy pace, sometimes my self-preservation instincts kick in , and I'll end up gripping the clipons a bit too tight which basically sets my line through the curve. If I can see through the turn, it's a completely different scenario -- then I can just say that I'm :turtle:. Going through downhill switchbacks, I brace against the braking forces and my shifting body weight through my arms which makes the steering so heavy that I'm really never at a comfortable speed at which to transition through the curve. Today I started working on holding my weight back by using my feet/legs more which made a considerable difference, but I'm not so sure I'd be able to do this at even a moderate pace. I've been riding for a long time, and I am a fairly conservative rider (actually, probably better to say that I'm a wussy), but these have always been a problem for me. What would be good to try here?

MetaLord 9
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 07:51 AM
Do you lean off of the bike? I've found that leaning off of the bike through those types of corners helps me get set for what's to come. If you're going at a reasonable pace & your body is off of the bike then you can bring the bike in tighter & go lower if you need to alter your line to the inside and it's still easy to stand it up a little to push your line out from that stance too. In the end, it's all about riding to your own comfort level and if you're not comfortable with blind corners, do more of them at the speed where you're ok and then gradually increase & you'll be fine.

There's no magic technique fix that's gonna make not being able to see through your corners suddenly effortless & easy. Confidence is what you need here. Build it up through repitition through blind corners and you'll be a more confident rider overall.

= Buckeye Jess =
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 08:03 AM
I actually do a lot of the exact same thing. I'm getting a lot better and most of it is just going and working on those corners over and over and over. I'll hit one stretch of road and just go up and down it until I'm sick of it or run out of daylight. That way I'm getting comfortable with the corners and that allows me to relax a bit and start to work on other things. The number one thing that I have to keep working on myself is turning my head and actually looking where I want the bike to go. I have a horrid habit of looking at right where my front tire is headed since I'm convinced there is going to be sand/gravel right there. Particularly in the blind corners - keep yer head up and keep looking where you want to go. The bike follows and it allows you to see any changes you need to make ASAP.

asp_125
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 08:07 AM
Fear of commitment. No, really, freezing up leads to forgetting to lean into the corner. As a result the bike wants to run wide, which leads to slowing down even more to turn it. Skiers and boarders have this too, fear of committing to the downhill side makes it hard to initiate the turn. Exaggerate the head turn, that makes you rotate the bike. Once you are able to tip in, the rest of the turn feels normal.

mtnairlover
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 08:43 AM
Exaggerate the head turn, that makes you rotate the bike. Once you are able to tip in, the rest of the turn feels normal.

And ride downhills as much as possible...force yourself to get off the bike, look and move your head in the direction you want to go. Set up and think of setting up early. Tell yourself to relax your grip and relax your inside arm. The bike will follow.

64BonnieLass
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 08:50 AM
Fear of commitment. No, really, freezing up leads to forgetting to lean into the corner. As a result the bike wants to run wide, which leads to slowing down even more to turn it. Skiers and boarders have this too, fear of committing to the downhill side makes it hard to initiate the turn. Exaggerate the head turn, that makes you rotate the bike. Once you are able to tip in, the rest of the turn feels normal.

Totally true. A couple of us did Mt Evans on Sunday. Those switchbacks are tight. I kept going really wide. I still never perfected it on the way down, but doing what Jeff just said, did help me a ton. And the good news...after doing those switchbacks, the rest of the road felt like giant sweepers. Very fun.

asp_125
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 09:17 AM
Also for downhill switchbacks.... get your braking and shifting done before the turn-in point. Gravity will pull on the bike, speeding it up. But you still want to crack that throttle or at least keep maintenance throttle for stability. So to compensate, go in slower than you would if the switchback was level or uphill.

DevilsTonic
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 10:13 AM
I've noticed that i'm getting more timid in the button hooks than I have been previously. Some sort of mental hang up I suppose. Not sure why, or how.... I did fine at the Gap last year. For some reason now, I tend to slow way down, stand the bike up and white knuckle the handle bars. I guess I just need to do what you're all doing and keep riding those roads just so that I can break myself of the habits I've developed.

OUTLAWD
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 10:19 AM
I have the same problem going downhill...uphill I am totally comfortable and confident accelerating through the corner, but downhill i practically stop before the corner. I started focusing on gripping the bike with my legs to keep the weight off my hands, the dropping my shoulder and looking through the corner. I went to pinewood and did this, til I was keeping the nearly the same pace up and down...it felt sketchy at first, but once the confidence built up, riding downhill blind corners felt alot more natural.

i'm still :turtle: though...

Stank Juic3
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 11:37 AM
First just relax, I visual where I would like to enter and where I would like to be after the corner. Set a entry speed where know you wont crash from going to slow or so your not going to over shoot the turn. Practice hanging off the bike and stay relxed. And I cant stress practice practice practice at your own pace of course.

But I say just to get to the point. Relax more and hang of the bike.

MattTLS
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 02:43 PM
First off, thanks for the replies. In general, what you all have brought up pretty well matches what I figured I need to do. Practice, relax, get off to the side, set up early, carry my weight differently so as to unweight the bars, don't hit neutral when looking for first gear like I did yesterday:banghead:,etc., but this part isn't completely clear to me:


Exaggerate the head turn, that makes you rotate the bike.

By this, do you mean to exaggerate the initial turn in? If it does, seems that this could be a bit unsettling in itself, no?

I know that my troubles in blind turns is completely mental. It's the fear of the unknown that gets in my head that is the problem. I'm always wondering if there'll be a vehicle in my lane, an animal, rocks/sand, etc. These thoughts just sort of freak me out knowing the carnage that would undoubtedly ensue.

mtnairlover
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 06:59 PM
Um...mind if I jump in?

I don't think. I mean, I don't think about what's around the bend. I think about how my body is positioned, where my bike is positioned (inside or outside of lane). I remind myself to be sure to keep my chin up and look at the furthest spot as I'm rounding the corner. I occupy myself with the best way to negotiate the corner. To me, that sets me up for what might possibly be there unexpectedly. But, that's me. I don't think everyone comes to the very same conclusion when they begin to lose their fear of those blind corners.

To me, an exaggerated head turn means that you are purposely pointing your chin in the direction you want to go. Your gaze is in that direction as well.

I dunno. I think people arrive at their own comfort levels on their own, at their own pace.

MattTLS
Wed Aug 26th, 2009, 09:56 PM
Do I mind ... of course not. All opinions are appreciated.

For me, I'm always thinking about what 'might' be there, and I know I do this too much and too often. I guess after a few 'oh crap!' moments when something has really gotten my attention, it's hard to let go. On blind turns, I enter and follow well inside where I would otherwise like to be, and then end up giving more of my attention to what's on the inside of the turn rather than where I'd like to be headed. This can easily f*** up the rest of the curve.

As for turning my head in more on the s-turns, I'll give it a try. Thanks.

Um...mind if I jump in?

I don't think. I mean, I don't think about what's around the bend. I think about how my body is positioned, where my bike is positioned (inside or outside of lane). I remind myself to be sure to keep my chin up and look at the furthest spot as I'm rounding the corner. I occupy myself with the best way to negotiate the corner. To me, that sets me up for what might possibly be there unexpectedly. But, that's me. I don't think everyone comes to the very same conclusion when they begin to lose their fear of those blind corners.

To me, an exaggerated head turn means that you are purposely pointing your chin in the direction you want to go. Your gaze is in that direction as well.

I dunno. I think people arrive at their own comfort levels on their own, at their own pace.

MetaLord 9
Thu Aug 27th, 2009, 07:34 AM
You mentioned getting the weight off the bars, if you've got any weight on the bars pretty much at any time, I'd recommend fixing that first. Everything else should come pretty easily at that point. Grip the tank with your knees and shift your weight onto the balls of your feet (that's usually where I'm on the pegs) and make sure that the only pressure your hands are exerting on the bars are the push/pull required to make the turn and just enough pressure to twist the throttle properly.

If you're putting a lot of weight on your bars then any bump you hit or emergency situation you find yourself in is most likely going to be exaggerated by having weight up there. If you've got a light grip, like holding two baby birds in your hands as Dana would say, and you hit a bump mid turn, then the bars will just shimmy a little and everything will stay on course. Putting more weight on the bars will force your body to shimmy with the bars on that same bump and then you're upsetting the bike.

It's hard to do this going downhill, but you can always sit back in the seat a little and make sure you're using your knees to grip that tank!

asp_125
Thu Aug 27th, 2009, 07:52 AM
..I know that my troubles in blind turns is completely mental. It's the fear of the unknown that gets in my head that is the problem. I'm always wondering if there'll be a vehicle in my lane, an animal, rocks/sand, etc. These thoughts just sort of freak me out knowing the carnage that would undoubtedly ensue.



That kind of thinking keeps you alive on the street. Not so much "fear" but awareness and "what if". It keeps you riding with some in reserve and ready to react if there is something in your line.

Exaggerating the head turn means really look where you want to go, and the bike will follow. As Cathy points out, point your chin into the corner. This does lead to a more purposeful turn initiation, which is the solution to being tentative in the corner.

If you hug the inside on blind turns, don't. Keeping a more outside line (late apex) lets you see further around the corner sooner, giving you more time to react.

Darth Do'Urden
Sat Mar 5th, 2011, 12:24 AM
I've been riding for about 4 years now, but not until moving here a month ago did I have any availability to twisties of any sort. As such, I've never actually leaned off my bike. Sure, I'll lean my body in the direction I want the bike to go and with a little push/pull and knee press I can get around turns pretty quick. But actually leaning off the bike...not yet.

I say all that to say that this type of discussion is excellent. Being quite fresh to twisties, I've yet to figure out how best to handle most situations. For instance, just yesterday I was in a turn in the left lane (both lanes heading same direction) and was in the middle of the lane. Then I hit a slight hump in the road and the whole bike faded to the left quite quickly and I ended up in the non-shoulder dirt. Luckily I didn't dump the thing, but I did learn one valuable lesson: stay on the inside lane of a turn (when applicable), though in the outer section of a lane when in a blind turn (to see further).

So...not to derail anything here. Just wanted to pipe in and say that the input here is highly valued. =)

asp_125
Sat Mar 5th, 2011, 09:28 AM
Good thing you didn't panic. What likely happened is you were riding the center of your lane, in the dust. 'Round here in the winter, the leftover salt and sand and crud accumulates in the middle of lanes where car tires don't clean it away. You hit the bump and unloaded the suspension enough to lose traction. Learn from this and ride in the clean part of the lane in winter; even if it's not the classic line through a corner.

cptschlongenheimer
Sat Mar 5th, 2011, 12:07 PM
I've never actually leaned off my bike. Sure, I'll lean my body in the direction I want the bike to go and with a little push/pull and knee press I can get around turns pretty quick. But actually leaning off the bike...not yet.

I was afraid to lean off for my first couple of years too. I thought it was a technique only for racers. Eventually I decided to try and even though I barely got a cheek off at first, I found out I could pick and hold a line so much easier.

I think you should start practicing it. It will only add to your repertiore of skills to draw from. Just start gradually on turns/curves you're familiar with and you'll do fine.

OUTLAWD
Sat Mar 5th, 2011, 09:31 PM
I really don't hang off on the street at all, unless I am really pushing it on my bagger, and that is so I won't drag the center stand.

I see far too many newer riders hanging off a ton but not leaning the bike any...it is almost as if they are afraid to lean the bike.

Even my first season on the track, I was hanging off, dragging knee all over, feeling like Rossi, but my body position was crap and I was slow...

Not that I am fast now, but I hang off much less, my body movements are much more subtle, I am smoother, I have chicken strips, and hardly even touch my knee down, but my lap times are 25 seconds quicker than last year

now I'm not saying that you shouldn't hang off, ride however you want, and while everyone has their own riding style, there are definately advantages to having "correct" body positioning vs. being "crossed up"

duelist13
Sun Mar 6th, 2011, 03:08 PM
I found being firm but smooth with the rear brake on tightening corners is helpful for newer riders because adding lean angle mid-corner is usually accompanied with some panic (also, your "correct" corner speed is what's safe for you). Try using the rear brake in a parking lot and get a feel for how much grip you have with the rubber under deceleration with cold tires. I cut down my street crashes to zero once I understood how much grip I had in reserve.

I found that prepping for a blind corner by sliding my buttocks over, then letting my body "slide" over if necessary helped with the "what if" factor, braking, and getting the bike turned. More specifically, being able to pick the bike up slightly over an iffy patch of ground is comforting.

I think the track helped me most though (despite my injuries riding at IMI). Learning how your tires feel hard on the brakes at 70 mph is useful (something you don't learn in a parking lot), and being able to learn from faster riders is really the best remedy for your fears.

Davy4575
Sun Mar 6th, 2011, 06:17 PM
The most important movement you can make to change direction is your eyes. Get your head inside the turn first, blind or not. I agree with Dave, once I started getting my focus off my knee and onto where I looking and my head position I started progressing. I dont know as though Id be playing around with the rear brake a whole lot if I was a new rider, rather set your corner speed slow enough to leave you plenty in reserve. Its a hell of alot safer and easier to increase speed out of a corner then it is to try and slow down mid corner.