What is happening in this country.

[Tipys]

Just remember you could be put in the same situation.

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/studies/report-79302.html

http://www.emaxhealth.com/124/19349.html

http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=10832482&nav=menu50_11_12

You can find even more information with a Google search. This is happening all over the country.

Ask your self this. Will you still be against "ObamaCare"? When you lose a love one? Due to the the healthcare industry being a "*business"?



*Business-In it to make money, not help people.

[TFOGGuys]

Which begs the question: Why the HELL do the necessary drugs cost over 1100 a month? Drug patents expire relatively quickly, allowing manufacturers of generics to manufacture them at greatly reduced cost, so why isn't this happening with the antirejection drugs?

The antiretrovirals that are used to combat HIV are a great example: When covered by patents, they cost over $100 a day, after the patents expired, they were made available to relief agencies in Africa for about $2.30 per daily dose.

[Shea]

Yes Tipys I will be against any form of government control over my health care. Your premise that government is better, more efficient and more responsive to the health care needs of people doesn't hold water.

People are responsible for their own lives and cannot demand that other people pay for it. Many of you think that "harsh", "mean" or "heartless" but have yet to come up with a convincing argument to the contrary. Yet you fall for the propaganda that ObamaCare will be cheaper and provide better healthcare then the private sector (but fail to point to one program the government has ever done that).

Is it unfortunate that people fall through the cracks? Yes. Does our system need fixing? Absolutely. But I will fight tooth and nail to keep the "fixing" out of the hands of politicians who's sole motivation is control over citizens lives.

You care so much about others healthcare Tipys, et al, please give to half your paychecks to charity and quit claiming the power to make every else conform to your claimed higher morality.

[Tipys]

Which begs the question: Why the HELL do the necessary drugs cost over 1100 a month? Drug patents expire relatively quickly, allowing manufacturers of generics to manufacture them at greatly reduced cost, so why isn't this happening with the antirejection drugs?

The antiretrovirals that are used to combat HIV are a great example: When covered by patents, they cost over $100 a day, after the patents expired, they were made available to relief agencies in Africa for about $2.30 per daily dose.


Its not just the medication. They do make generics. The generic I was taking was only about $300 dollars a month. I am one of the lucky ones that isn't on a ton of medication. My current one costs $900 a month or so.

But it isn't just the medication itself. I go to the hospital for check ups 4 times a year. I also have to have about a $50k surgery every other year.
I am 11 years out so I don't have to go ever offen.

Most are on alot of medications. I believe the average is about 9.

But right out of the hospital. You have to go 2 times and week and slowly make it less and less you have to go. That $50k surgery once or twice a year depending.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

As Shea said...the system is in dire need of repair...but government care isn't the answer in my book.
I know it is a simplistic view...but we already have two separate government health care plans and look at the condition they are both in. Why in the world would you want to introduce a third program when your first two are bombing? Granted, medicare and medicaid both have their own demons that don't necessarily cross over for a good comparison, but I think we need to look long and hard at fixing the two problems we already have before we go an introduce a third. (A third of which I don't think should even be an option personally...)

[Tipys]

Yes Tipys I will be against any form of government control over my health care. Your premise that government is better, more efficient and more responsive to the health care needs of people doesn't hold water.

People are responsible for their own lives and cannot demand that other people pay for it. Many of you think that "harsh", "mean" or "heartless" but have yet to come up with a convincing argument to the contrary. Yet you fall for the propaganda that ObamaCare will be cheaper and provide better healthcare then the private sector (but fail to point to one program the government has ever done that).

Is it unfortunate that people fall through the cracks? Yes. Does our system need fixing? Absolutely. But I will fight tooth and nail to keep the "fixing" out of the hands of politicians who's sole motivation is control over citizens lives.

You care so much about others healthcare Tipys, et al, please give to half your paychecks to charity and quit claiming the power to make every else conform to your claimed higher morality.



Ask your self this. Will you still be against "ObamaCare"? When you lose a love one? Due to the the healthcare industry being a "*business"?Answer this for yourself.

Also I would happly lost half my paycheck. Because I am one of the "People that fall throw the cracks".

Edit; Also it is alot more then you think. That fall throw the cracks.


So thank you for telling me to go die.

[Shea]

Answer this for yourself.

Also I would happly lost half my paycheck. Because I am one of the "People that fall throw the cracks".


So thank you for telling me to go die.

I understand that you have a dog in the fight but that is no where near what I said. If your most convincing argument for government controlled healthcare is an attempt to guilt me into supporting it, then you fail.

[Tipys]

I understand that you have a dog in the fight but that is no where near what I said. If your most convincing argument for government controlled healthcare is an attempt to guilt me into supporting it, then you fail.


No its not a guilt. Its more of just telling you what is happening yet again. This is the guilt. I hope you never lose a loved on because of the way current health insurance is.

People are so focused on me me me. Because your healthy and have a job
(That provides healthcar) doesn't mean it will be that way 10 minutes from now.

[Tipys]

No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick.

[dirkterrell]

Because your healthy and have a job


I think the first step in healthcare reform needs to be breaking the connection between one's job and insurance coverage (in the same way that employer-run pensions are going the way of the dodo).

Dirk

[MetaLord 9]

Which begs the question: Why the HELL do the necessary drugs cost over 1100 a month? Drug patents expire relatively quickly, allowing manufacturers of generics to manufacture them at greatly reduced cost, so why isn't this happening with the antirejection drugs?

The antiretrovirals that are used to combat HIV are a great example: When covered by patents, they cost over $100 a day, after the patents expired, they were made available to relief agencies in Africa for about $2.30 per daily dose.
Because, while it costs them $0.15 to make each extra pill, the first pill cost probably $1B in research, testing, and materials.

Don't take this as a defense of exorbitantly high medication fees, but when you spend $1B to create a wonder drug and only have have 2 or 3 years to recoup your investment so you can do it again to help those who are dying, you charge what it takes to get you there.

There are probably better ways to go about this, but I can't think of 'em unfortunately.

[Shea]

No its not a guilt. Its more of just telling you what is happening yet again. This is the guilt. I hope you never lose a loved on because of the way current health insurance is.

People are so focused on me me me. Because your healthy and have a job
(That provides healthcar) doesn't mean it will be that way 10 minutes from now.

So I'm selfish and you're not...ok.

You're sick and have to take expensive medicines to ostensibly stay alive. You are accomplishing this through whatever financial means you have available, since you are in fact, still alive. But you don't want to do this and feel that someone else should pay for it. So who is being selfish sir? This is 100% about you, you, you.

In 10min, I may be out of a job. In 10min I might get run over by a car. In 10min I may be hit by an asteroid on a group ride. You are correct. But in that 10 min, will my fundamental belief that I DON'T own other people and can spend their money as I see fit change? No. I am 100% responsible for my life, my actions, my health, my shelter and my decisions. If I need help from my fellow man I have to ASK for it, in person, to their face NOT vote some dbag politician into office to steal it for me.

[Tipys]

So I'm selfish and you're not...ok.

You're sick and have to take expensive medicines to ostensibly stay alive. You are accomplishing this through whatever financial means you have available, since you are in fact, still alive. But you don't want to do this and feel that someone else should pay for it. So who is being selfish sir? This is 100% about you, you, you.




I didn't choose to get sick. So I guess that was selfish. If I could afford my medications. I would still be trying to get this to go through because I am not the only one in this situation. There are people out there dieing because of this. Not the healthy people that have jobs that provide health insurance.

And no its not about me, me, me. Its about everybody we need this.

To Quote MLK "A man who is not willing to die for something is not fit to live."

So basically if I had to die to see this go through I would. Because I know I would be saving countless lifes.

[Pharmgirl]

Because, while it costs them $0.15 to make each extra pill, the first pill cost probably $1B in research, testing, and materials.

Don't take this as a defense of exorbitantly high medication fees, but when you spend $1B to create a wonder drug and only have have 2 or 3 years to recoup your investment so you can do it again to help those who are dying, you charge what it takes to get you there.

There are probably better ways to go about this, but I can't think of 'em unfortunately.


It costs an average of $500 million to bring one drug to market. You then have 7 years of patent exclusivity (ususally) to recoup your investment. Most drug companies are able to do it and to cover the ones that didn't make it to market. They remain profitable year after year.

The US does finance most of the new drug development in the world. As a pharmacist, my question to insurance companies is this (and I work for one) is this: you'll pay an MD $160+ for a 15-30 minute office visit and charge a $10 copay, but for necessary prescription medication that will keep you out of the hospital and last for an entire month, you will charge 50% coinsurance. Admittedly, this is usually employer-driven but the problem behind this is that medications currently only make up 10% of healthcare spend. And they keep people out of the hospital. I find this to be very shortsighted. But insurance companies are looking to turn a profit and the longer you live (by providing preventative care), the more likely you are going to cost them money in the long run when you have a stroke, cancer, COPD, etc.

A quadruple bypass is certainly over $100,000 in costs while a year of Lipitor (the top branded medication in the US) costs $1440. Copay for inpatient hospital stay $50-$100; $20 copay on Lipitor x12 months = $240. Sad. Not much of a monetary incentive to the patient, but it should be for the insurer.

But I don't think anyone should have to go into bankruptcy just because they got the short end of the genetic stick and ended up being a million dollar disease.

[pauliep]

I would be saving peoples time if I could proof read and fix all the grammer here, but I don't.

So I guess I should be compelled to donate half my pay check to the gov't since I'm one of the lucky healthy ones so it goes to those who aren't so lucky? Really? So it's the "aren't so lucky" ones that are really the lucky ones...

Healthcare is a business. You go to school for a skill just like everyone else. To learn a skill to earn a living (otherwise they would volunteer, right?). Life has gone on without doctors. IF you got sick and didn't know what to do, you went on with what you had (still don't get how people got on without brushing their teeth and no tooth paste?). Thousands of years in human history, this was it. Doctors and surgeons were a perk of royalty. Before that, people lived in very small communities and worked towards to good of the community. That was then and this is now. Now, no one's ass is royal and nothing comes free.

The nice thing about this country is we can speak for or against something. You want others to help pay your bills then go ahead to lobby for it. If you don't want to pay someone's bills, lobby for it. Everyone voted for "Change," now you have to face the reality of it.

[*GSXR~SNAIL*]

...Everyone voted for "Change," now you have to face the reality of it.

Uh, no they didn't.

Read the signature below----------v

[Shea]

I didn't choose to get sick. So I guess that was selfish. If I could afford my medications. I would still be trying to get this to go through because I am not the only one in this situation. There are people out there dieing because of this. Not the healthy people that have jobs that provide health insurance.

So you feel you have the power and right to compel, through force, people to see as you do and take their labor for your own ends? It's just an amazing entitlement mentality that you have there.



And no its not about me, me, me. Its about everybody we need this.

You want it because you benefit from it. Polls show that the majority of Americans are happy with their health care (89%) and the bulk of the people without insurance receive coverage (70%).

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/24/obama-pushes-national-health-care-americans-happy-coverage/

So no, everybody doesn't need this...you need it and that's why you want it. Let's be honest about your motivations here...



To Quote MLK "A man who is not willing to die for something is not fit to live."

...and I'm willing to die to keep the government out of the lives of every citizen. So where does that put us?



So basically if I had to die to see this go through I would. Because I know I would be saving countless lifes.

I'm sure you tell yourself that, and it makes you feel good however the numbers don't support such a claim.

[Raptor]

As Shea said...the system is in dire need of repair...but government care isn't the answer in my book.
I know it is a simplistic view...but we already have two separate government health care plans and look at the condition they are both in. Why in the world would you want to introduce a third program when your first two are bombing? Granted, medicare and medicaid both have their own demons that don't necessarily cross over for a good comparison, but I think we need to look long and hard at fixing the two problems we already have before we go an introduce a third. (A third of which I don't think should even be an option personally...)

I'll see your medicare and medicaid, and raise you one VA. Here's just one of hundreds of examples of what existing government-run health care can offer:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h3Kn6hbrBa2TaufScnz5x86wOXBAD9A751CG0

From the AP:

As vets await checks, VA workers get $24M bonuses
By KIMBERLY HEFLING (AP) – Aug 21, 2009
WASHINGTON — Outside the Veterans Affairs Department, severely wounded veterans have faced financial hardship waiting for their first disability payment. Inside, money has been flowing in the form of $24 million in bonuses.
In scathing reports this week, the VA's inspector general said thousands of technology office employees at the VA received the bonuses over a two-year period, some under questionable circumstances. It also detailed abuses ranging from nepotism to an inappropriate relationship between two VA employees.
The inspector general accused one recently retired VA official of acting "as if she was given a blank checkbook" as awards and bonuses were distributed to employees of the Office of Information and Technology in 2007 and 2008. In some cases the justification for the bonuses was inadequate or questionable, the IG said.
The official, Jennifer S. Duncan, also engaged in nepotism and got $60,000 in bonuses herself, the IG said. In addition, managers improperly authorized college tuition payments for VA employees, some of whom were Duncan's family members and friends. That cost taxpayers nearly $140,000.
Separately, a technology office employee became involved in an "inappropriate personal relationship" with a high-level VA official. The technology office employee flew 22 times from Florida to Washington, where the VA official lived. That travel cost $37,000.
The details on the alleged improprieties were in two IG reports issued this week. VA spokeswoman Katie Roberts said the agency was extremely concerned about the IG's findings and would pursue a thorough review.
"VA does not condone misconduct by its employees and will take the appropriate correction action for those who violate VA policy," Roberts said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.
The number of claims the VA needs to process has escalated, and the Information and Technology Office has a critical role in improving the technological infrastructure to handle the increase. President Barack Obama has said creating a seamless transition for records between the Pentagon and the VA could help eliminate a backlog that has left some veterans waiting months for a disability check.
Much of the IG's focus was on Duncan, the former executive assistant to the ex-assistant secretary for information and technology, Robert Howard.
In one situation, a part-time intern with connections to Duncan was allowed to convert to a full-time paid position even though the individual was working a part-time schedule 500 miles away at college, the IG said.
"We have never known of any other new VA employee provided such favorable treatment," the IG said.
The individual's name and relationship to Duncan was blacked out, as were many other names in the reports.
Investigators recommended that the employees who received the college money pay it back. The largest amount awarded was $33,000.
In addition to Duncan, three other high-level employees received $73,000, $58,000 and $59,000 in bonuses in 2007 and 2008, the IG said. In 2007 alone, 4,700 employees were awarded bonuses, on average $2,500 each.
Some employees were given cash awards for services that were supposedly provided before the employees started working at VA, the IG said.
A man who answered the phone at Duncan's residence in Rehoboth Beach, Del., said she was not available, and he said not to call back.
The IG also found that Katherine Adair Martinez, deputy assistant secretary for information protection and risk management in the Office of Information and Technology, misused her position, abused her authority and engaged in prohibited personnel practices when she influenced a VA contractor and later VA subordinates to employ a friend.
The IG also said Martinez "took advantage of an inappropriate personal relationship" with Howard to transfer her job to Florida. In the nine months after she moved, the IG said Martinez traveled to Washington 22 times "to accomplish tasks that she could easily do from Florida."
The relationship between Martinez and Howard started in April 2007 and continued several months after Howard left the VA in January of this year, the IG said.
Roberts' e-mail did not address a request from the AP to speak with Martinez. Howard could not be immediately located for comment.
Indiana Rep. Steve Buyer, top Republican on the House Veterans' Affairs Committee, urged quick action to fix the problems. "VA must appoint honorable individuals to these critical positions," he said.
The VA has faced criticism before in its awarding of bonuses. In 2007, the AP reported that the then-VA secretary had approved a generous package of more than $3.8 million in bonus payments in 2006, citing a need to retain longtime VA executives.

__________________________________________________ _____________

It is a mistake to assume that anyone opposing health care reform believes that the current system is flawless. Understand, what is being proposed is not the only viable alternative. Considering the track record of comparable example, I wouldn't consider it viable at all.
How many in favor of BO's plan actively lobbied for reform of the health care system prior to its introduction? I don't mean typing about it on a social forum, I mean how many wrote the appropriate offices, contacted the necessary officials, or joined or started groups pursuing reform.

[Tipys]

I would be saving peoples time if I could proof read and fix all the grammer here, but I don't.

So I guess I should be compelled to donate half my pay check to the gov't since I'm one of the lucky healthy ones so it goes to those who aren't so lucky? Really? So it's the "aren't so lucky" ones that are really the lucky ones...

Healthcare is a business. You go to school for a skill just like everyone else. To learn a skill to earn a living (otherwise they would volunteer, right?). Life has gone on without doctors. IF you got sick and didn't know what to do, you went on with what you had (still don't get how people got on without brushing their teeth and no tooth paste?). Thousands of years in human history, this was it. Doctors and surgeons were a perk of royalty. Before that, people lived in very small communities and worked towards to good of the community. That was then and this is now. Now, no one's ass is royal and nothing comes free.

The nice thing about this country is we can speak for or against something. You want others to help pay your bills then go ahead to lobby for it. If you don't want to pay someone's bills, lobby for it. Everyone voted for "Change," now you have to face the reality of it.

Point alot of people are missing is anything can happen to you at anytime.

One school isn't cheap Neither are is medication. So its really not all that easy to go to school and get a good job that has great health insurance. (I am working on this myself right now) However what happens when you lose your job and heath insurance. Does that make it that you not need them anymore?


So you feel you have the power and right to compel, through force, people to see as you do and take their labor for your own ends? It's just an amazing entitlement mentality that you have there.



You want it because you benefit from it. Polls show that the majority of Americans are happy with their health care (89%) and the bulk of the people without insurance receive coverage (70%).

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/24/obama-pushes-national-health-care-americans-happy-coverage/

So no, everybody doesn't need this...you need it and that's why you want it. Let's be honest about your motivations here...



...and I'm willing to die to keep the government out of the lives of every citizen. So where does that put us?



I'm sure you tell yourself that, and it makes you feel good however the numbers don't support such a claim.

Heathcare is something that should be provided by the goverment. Simple as that just like the police and fire.

No your wrong this would help everyone. Anything can happen to anyone at any time.

Is your life worth more then anyone else? No. So why be against the idea of a program that is going to help EVERYONE?

I feel the need to repeat myself.

How would you feel if a loved one lost there life because they couldn't get health insurance?

By the way: I would be dead in a week without my medication and there are many others just like me.

[Raptor]

Heathcare is something that should be provided by the goverment. Simple as that just like the police and fire.

This is purely subjective reasoning. Regardless, right now, within the 3 examples of gov-run health care offered in this thread, corruption, mismanagement, and misappropriation are protocol. Why is it so difficult to understand the real logic behind those who do not agree with the proposed reform?
Instead the agenda is defended with what? Accusations of racism?
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09032009/news/regionalnews/charlie_ups_the_race_card_ante_187917.htm
Is a legitimate and trustworthy reform movement going to allude to propaganda, attempting to discredit those who do not agree with it?


By the way: I would be dead in a week without my medication and there are many others just like me.

Understood. Do you believe this same scenario is improbable for those who are already entitled to gov-run health care? How many times has the VA denied or neglected responsibility for treatment of veterans suffering from severe physical and mental afflictions?

http://vets.yuku.com/topic/33132/t/Denied-PTSD-IU.html

http://www.wwaytv3.com/node/17691

http://www.roberta-barth.com/news_vet.html

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1436

http://www.kidk.com/news/50183927.html

etc.etc.etc.etc.etc......

[Tipys]

This is purely subjective reasoning. Regardless, right now, within the 3 examples of gov-run health care offered in this thread, corruption, mismanagement, and misappropriation are protocol. Why is it so difficult to understand the real logic behind those who do not agree with the proposed reform?
Instead the agenda is defended with what? Accusations of racism?
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09032009/news/regionalnews/charlie_ups_the_race_card_ante_187917.htm
Is a legitimate and trustworthy reform movement going to allude to propaganda, attempting to discredit those who do not agree with it?



Understood. Do you believe this same scenario is improbable for those who are already entitled to gov-run health care? How many times has the VA denied or neglected responsibility for treatment of veterans suffering from severe physical and mental afflictions?


It is not improbable in its current state. Because they can turn around and say your not sick enough to qualify for goverment benefits. When it is provided to everyone it will be alot harder to say you don't qualify for said benefits.

[Raptor]

It is not improbable in its current state. Because they can turn around and say your not sick enough to qualify for goverment benefits. When it is provided to everyone it will be alot harder to say you don't qualify for said benefits.

How exactly do you figure that? You're saying that with the creation of an office appointed to handle an immensely larger number of recipients, that efficiency will increase?

Do you have any credible source that supports the assertion that the reform will not be subject to the ridiculous flaws suffered in other gov-run health care offices?

[t_jolt]

No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick.



I dont want to say this but shit happens. My son is horribly ill with pneumonia again as of sat. Yes i myself have over 30k in med bills for my 2 yearold. But guess what. I dont go bitching about how other people need to pay it for me. Thats just stupid. Im tired of hearing about this health care crap. Guess what, people made decisions when they were young. I decided to go into computers, i make money. Others when to warehouse workers, or took a job that didnt offer health care. Everyone knows before they take the job. They could of held out for a job with health care, or a better plan. But they didnt. How is that my fault? Everyone makes their own choice. Not knowing what life is going to throw at them. Im sorry. But i refuse to pay for someone's life just cause the gov wants me too. I dont care who you are. If you mean something to me. im going help. Hell even someone handing out fliers to save a life. ill probably donate a few bucks. But guess what im broke cause my son is sick. But its life. I dont go bitching to everyone about it.


One school isn't cheap Neither are is medication. So its really not all that easy to go to school and get a good job that has great health insurance. (I am working on this myself right now) However what happens when you lose your job and heath insurance. Does that make it that you not need them anymore?


Its all about the choices you've made. You could've gone to school, earlier in life. You could've paid more attention in high school got a scholarship. etc.etc.etc. It doesnt matter what the excuse are. Life happens. Thats the way it is, and thats the way its always going to be.

[Tipys]

How exactly do you figure that? You're saying that with the creation of an office appointed to handle an immensely larger number of recipients, that efficiency will increase?

Do you have any credible source that supports the assertion that the reform will not be subject to the ridiculous flaws suffered in other gov-run health care offices?


Anyone even the goverment is not that good at running things.


Also insurance its self has the same flaws if not more. So why not provide it to everyone saves more lifes and let the goverment run it? Thats right you never think something in the private sector could possible have flaws.



Also on a side note. Its funny how so many people are pro life. Untill it cost money out of there pocket. I am not saying anyone here is pro life. Just you know a good amount of pro life people are agienst this becasue it effects there pocket.

[Tipys]

I dont want to say this but shit happens. My son is horribly ill with pneumonia again. Yes i myself have over 30k in med bills for my 2 yearold. But guess what. I dont go bitching about how other people need to pay it for me. Thats just stupid. Im tired of hearing about this health care crap. Guess what, people made decisions when they were young. I decided to go into computers, i make money. Others when to warehouse workers, or took a job that didnt offer health care. Everyone knows before they take the job. They could of held out for a job with health care, or a better plan. But they didnt. How is that my fault? Everyone makes their own choice. Not knowing what life is going to throw at them. Im sorry. But i refuse to pay for someone's life just cause the gov wants me too. I dont care who you are. If you mean something to me. im going help. Hell even someone handing out fliers to save a life. ill probably donate a few bucks. But guess what im broke cause my son is sick. But its life. I dont go bitching to everyone about it.


Like I made the decision to need a heath transplant to live. I am not bitching and wanting people to pay for my stuff but I need health insurance which I can't get. Because I am pre existing. I am more asking to be able to live. But I guess again my life and others are worth less because we can't pay for health care.

But how would you feel about this? If you were not able to pay for your sons health care? and he died because of it?

Who is to say ones life is worth more then another?

[Raptor]

Anyone even the goverment is not that good at running things.

Wrong sir. Given the choice, I would much rather have the freedom to trust in my own ability to manage my life, financial or otherwise, than anyone else. This way, I learn from my mistakes and correct them at my sole expense. Nobody else has to pay for my mistakes and I am responsible for nobody else's.



Also insurance its self has the same flaws if not more. So why not provide it to everyone saves more lifes and let the goverment run it?

1. See my above sentiment.
2. Because I can barely afford what I'm already expected to dole out for public assistance programs.

[Tipys]

Its all about the choices you've made. You could've gone to school, earlier in life. You could've paid more attention in high school got a scholarship. etc.etc.etc. It doesnt matter what the excuse are. Life happens. Thats the way it is, and thats the way its always going to be.


Yup I could have gone to school earlier in life. Your right. Being 20 and in school currently. Maybe I should have gone to school before my transplant.(I was nine when I had my transplant)

Again with being high school drop out. AAS in automotive technogy before I would have started my senior year still guess that wasn't soon enough. Back in school because the automotive field is tanking.

Your right life happens. But heathcare needs to be there for everyone. Not just the healthy.

[t_jolt]

Like I made the decision to need a heath transplant to live. I am not bitching and wanting people to pay for my stuff but I need health insurance which I can't get. Because I am pre existing. I am more asking to be able to live. But I guess again my life and others are worth less because we can't pay for health care.

But how would you feel about this? If you were not able to pay for your sons health care? and he died because of it?

Who is to say ones life is worth more then another?

People are going to call me heartless or a bastard. and they can.

If you get a job, with health care, they cannot deny you when you get it. Thats the law. It is to make sure you get healthcare. Hell go get a job for REI they have THE Best health care plan i have ever seen. EPO plans ftmfw! If i couldnt pay for zaines health care, bingo i would distroyed over it. But at the end of everything. (hypathically speaking) it was my choice to not find another job, or 2 to get his shit payed for. Damn right anyone would feel like a bad parent. But i still wouldnt go to anyone else and say my son is sick you have to help pay for it. I would be all over the place with fund rasiers, trying to sell shit. etc.

Im saying that the only one that says one life has more worth then others is the one fighting for the life to be saved. If i didnt get another job, sell as much shit as i could etc. then im the one saying that he life isnt worth that much.

your fighting for your own. Only you can say how much its worth. Cause at the end of the day, you can stop doing what ever it is you need to do to stay alive.

[Tipys]

Wrong sir. Given the choice, I would much rather have the freedom to trust in my own ability to manage my life, financial or otherwise, than anyone else. This way, I learn from my mistakes and correct them at my sole expense. Nobody else has to pay for my mistakes and I am responsible for nobody else's.




1. See my above sentiment.
2. Because I can barely afford what I'm already expected to dole out for public assistance programs.


So your going to say it was your fault when/if you get sick and can't get health care/insurance. No you will blame it on something/somebody else.

[t_jolt]

Yup I could have gone to school earlier in life. Your right. Being 20 and in school currently. Maybe I should have gone to school before my transplant.(I was nine when I had my transplant)

Again with being high school drop out. AAS in automotive technogy before I would have started my senior year still guess that wasn't soon enough. Back in school because the automotive field is tanking.

Your right life happens. But heathcare needs to be there for everyone. Not just the healthy.


Well im not saying anything here. but your covered under your parents until 22 or 23 by law. since your going to school. For these reasons.

[Bebop]

Heathcare is something that should be provided by the goverment. Simple as that just like the police and fire.

No your wrong this would help everyone. Anything can happen to anyone at any time.

Is your life worth more then anyone else? No. So why be against the idea of a program that is going to help EVERYONE?

I feel the need to repeat myself.

How would you feel if a loved one lost there life because they couldn't get health insurance?

By the way: I would be dead in a week without my medication and there are many others just like me.

I and I believe the polls show that the majority of people in America are happy with the insurance that they have. There are many options being offered to help actually reform healthcare and not just head down the road towards complete government run healthcare. Things like tort reform, not allowing people especially illegal's to use ER's as their GP etc..

I am against a plan like HR 3200 or anything like it because while it gives everyone the opportunity to use a doctor it dramatically reduces the quality of that care for the vast majority of people. Because when government runs something like health care they have a set amount of money that they have to work in, X amount of GDP, that leads to nowhere but rationing care for people who, because some burocrat somewhere, said they will not have as good a quality of life as say someone who is younger or in better shape. You can look at Canada and the UK to see the long waits for things that here we can get within hours or at most a few weeks. Anything can happen to anyone at anytime that is why you can get catastrophe insurance to cover any thing extreme. Besides the way it is now if you are near death you are taken to a hospital and treated, it doesn't matter if you can pay or not. If you can't pay then that cost has to be recouped by the hospital so they have to raise their rates. The insurance companies see that cost increase and raise the rates of the people who pay the insurance.

I would be willing to bet that you can get covered by an insurance company you are just not willing to pay the costs associated with it. This is where you have the choice. Do you really need all the luxury items that you or anyone else may or may not have? You can buy that new 45K truck or that new 10k motorcycle or the new $500 game system but you don't need it. If you do buy that stuff over health insurance then you made the choice which is more important to you. I only have insurance thru my company if I get laid off today then get hit buy a truck tomorrow that would suck but it is a risk I take.

I would feel said that my loved one was gone but I would bet that it was some risk that they took that was the reason they were denied coverage or where unwilling to pay the cost associated with getting insurance. Now I have the ability to say to that person I will help you out with what money I have to get you what you need. This is fine because it is my choice I am making. I do not want to be forced into helping people I don't know because they made some bad choices. Forced charity is not charity. The American people send the most help be it money, food, water, supplies, medical attention than any other country in the world. You start taxing people you take away their ability to send money to people who need it. By the way the drug companies sell their product to governments at huge discounts (way under cost) because the governments threaten to break copyright laws and manufacture the pills illegally so we have to suck up that price as well.

Right now you have the ability that if you do not like the way the insurance or drug companies run their buisness then start your own. If the model works and people like what you offer then you and your buisness will do good. You also have the ability to search around to find the best deal for you. With government run healthcare that is it, that is all your options well except you could move to another country.

I am going to turn your question around on you and ask how would you feel if you were sitting next to a loved one who had liver failure and was going to die because some burocrat A-hole somewhere said that your loved ones live wasn't worth the cost, and that the kid in the next room was going to get the liver replacement because he would experiance a better quality of life than your loved one even though the kid is only in the hospital because he is an alcoholic?

[Tipys]

Well im not saying anything here. but your covered under your parents until 22 or 23 by law. since your going to school. For these reasons.


Not a full time student. Because I have to work a full time job.

[t_jolt]

Not a full time student. Because I have to work a full time job.

not trying to be a dick, but thats your choice. When i was in college (im only 24 btw) so 3 years ago i went to school full time and work a full time job. It sucks yes, and you lose "fun" time if you will. but once again its your choice. you could choose to take weekend or night or early ass morning classes to get to full time status. No money? that easy. Banks are pumping student loans by the hand fulls.

were there a will, there is a way. Its hard, it sucks but it can happen. No one ever said life was easy, or fair. you have to use what you have to your advantage

[Tipys]

I and I believe the polls show that the majority of people in America are happy with the insurance that they have. There are many options being offered to help actually reform healthcare and not just head down the road towards complete government run healthcare. Things like tort reform, not allowing people especially illegal's to use ER's as their GP etc..

I am against a plan like HR 3200 or anything like it because while it gives everyone the opportunity to use a doctor it dramatically reduces the quality of that care for the vast majority of people. Because when government runs something like health care they have a set amount of money that they have to work in, X amount of GDP, that leads to nowhere but rationing care for people who, because some burocrat somewhere, said they will not have as good a quality of life as say someone who is younger or in better shape. You can look at Canada and the UK to see the long waits for things that here we can get within hours or at most a few weeks. Anything can happen to anyone at anytime that is why you can get catastrophe insurance to cover any thing extreme. Besides the way it is now if you are near death you are taken to a hospital and treated, it doesn't matter if you can pay or not. If you can't pay then that cost has to be recouped by the hospital so they have to raise their rates. The insurance companies see that cost increase and raise the rates of the people who pay the insurance.

I would be willing to bet that you can get covered by an insurance company you are just not willing to pay the costs associated with it. This is where you have the choice. Do you really need all the luxury items that you or anyone else may or may not have? You can buy that new 45K truck or that new 10k motorcycle or the new $500 game system but you don't need it. If you do buy that stuff over health insurance then you made the choice which is more important to you. I only have insurance thru my company if I get laid off today then get hit buy a truck tomorrow that would suck but it is a risk I take.

I would feel said that my loved one was gone but I would bet that it was some risk that they took that was the reason they were denied coverage or where unwilling to pay the cost associated with getting insurance. Now I have the ability to say to that person I will help you out with what money I have to get you what you need. This is fine because it is my choice I am making. I do not want to be forced into helping people I don't know because they made some bad choices. Forced charity is not charity. The American people send the most help be it money, food, water, supplies, medical attention than any other country in the world. You start taxing people you take away their ability to send money to people who need it. By the way the drug companies sell their product to governments at huge discounts (way under cost) because the governments threaten to break copyright laws and manufacture the pills illegally so we have to suck up that price as well.

Right now you have the ability that if you do not like the way the insurance or drug companies run their buisness then start your own. If the model works and people like what you offer then you and your buisness will do good. You also have the ability to search around to find the best deal for you. With government run healthcare that is it, that is all your options well except you could move to another country.

I am going to turn your question around on you and ask how would you feel if you were sitting next to a loved one who had liver failure and was going to die because some burocrat A-hole somewhere said that your loved ones live wasn't worth the cost, and that the kid in the next room was going to get the liver replacement because he would experiance a better quality of life than your loved one even though the kid is only in the hospital because he is an alcoholic?


Heart transplant preexisting no one will cover me. I have looked.

That burocrat A-hole is already there it is currently happening. Other then a burocrat it is the insurance company saying we don't care who it goes to. Were not paying for you to have a transplant. If you dont think that is already happening you need to go inform yourself.

[Tipys]

not trying to be a dick, but thats your choice. When i was in college (im only 24 btw) so 3 years ago i went to school full time and work a full time job. It sucks yes, and you lose "fun" time if you will. but once again its your choice. you could choose to take weekend or night or early ass morning classes to get to full time status. No money? that easy. Banks are pumping student loans by the hand fulls.

were there a will, there is a way. Its hard, it sucks but it can happen. No one ever said life was easy, or fair. you have to use what you have to your advantage


Yes the first time in school I had a full time job and was a full time student.

And yes it would help me. But what about the thousands of others? That can't be covered by there parents.

[Raptor]

So your going to say it was your fault when/if you get sick and can't get health care/insurance. No you will blame it on something/somebody else.

Excuse me? I have been nothing but respectful to you in this discussion. Even though this comment rubs me the wrong way, I will continue to do so.
Let me point out that this is insultingly presumptuous of you, and nothing more than an empty assumption. You do not know me from Adam, but let me assure you that I pride myself on my integrity and ability to take personal responsibility for myself and my actions.
You have zero basis to assume what you have, and it speaks a lot for your position to have defaulted to unfounded assumption. Do you see the parallels between your style of argument and the examples of discrediting propaganda I provided earlier? What else am I for believing in personal responsibility? A racist?

Here's a little something for you to chew on. A couple months ago, I came down with the worst case of strep throat I've ever had in my life. By no means am I whining here, and compared to your medical issues, I'm sure this seems minimal, but hear me out.
I could not swallow, at all, and was severely dehydrating because I couldn't take in water. Since I've been laid-off, I have consequently been uninsured. Despite this, I knew I had to go to a family clinic for the cheapest form of treatment available. After one look at my throat, which was secreting blood at this point, I was told they could not treat me and I needed to get to ER immediately. I told them of my uninsured status and they made a call to Parker Adventist to prove that they would see me.

They did see me. Within a week of my recovery, I got the bill. $6,500 dollars. That's right, $6,500 dollars for treatment of strep throat. Guess what else, I am paying the bill, in arranged increments, and looking to nobody else to do so. Is the price asinine? Sure seems so. Do I wish it was not? Of course. Wanna help me pay it? Thought not.

[t_jolt]

Yes the first time in school I had a full time job and was a full time student.

And yes it would help me. But what about the thousands of others? That can't be covered by there parents.

well then it goes to what i said earlier. It was their choice. They made their decisions. They now have to live with them. They could all go find another job I.E. REI or something along those lines where you just have to show up and smile, actually do a little work and get health care. they all have this choice. they also all have the choice to go to a bank take out a loan and pay for health care. They have options just like you. I dont expect anyone here to help pay for zaine. If they offered i would probably slap them. Its my bill. its all about responisblitiy. which few has anymore.

[t_jolt]

They did see me. Within a week of my recovery, I got the bill. $6,500 dollars. That's right, $6,500 dollars for treatment of strep throat. Guess what else, I am paying the bill, in arranged increments, and looking to nobody else to do so. Is the price asinine? Sure seems so. Do I wish it was not? Of course. Wanna help me pay it? Thought not.

Wanna trade bills Gary? :) hey when we going to go riding?

Tyrel

[dirkterrell]

Not a full time student. Because I have to work a full time job.

I went to school full time and worked 40-60 hours a week. Finished a semester sooner too. It can be done.

Dirk

[Bebop]

Heart transplant preexisting no one will cover me. I have looked.

That burocrat A-hole is already there it is currently happening. Other then a burocrat it is the insurance company saying we don't care who it goes to. Were not paying for you to have a transplant. If you dont think that is already happening you need to go inform yourself.

Right now you have the option to go to a different insurance company or start your own if you don't like the options out there and feel you can run it better. Under "Obamacare" that will be your only option you will not get to chose between government care or something else. I take it you agree that the bureaucratic A-hole will exist in government run care. Under private care that A-hole exists but you can search around until you find a company that doesn't have one.

[Tipys]

Excuse me? I have been nothing but respectful to you in this discussion. Even though this comment rubs me the wrong way, I will continue to do so.
Let me point out that this is insultingly presumptuous of you, and nothing more than an empty assumption. You do not know me from Adam, but let me assure you that I pride myself on my integrity and ability to take personal responsibility for myself and my actions.
You have zero basis to assume what you have, and it speaks a lot for your position to have defaulted to unfounded assumption. Do you see the parallels between your style of argument and the examples of discrediting propaganda I provided earlier? What else am I for believing in personal responsibility? A racist?

Here's a little something for you to chew on. A couple months ago, I came down with the worst case of strep throat I've ever had in my life. By no means am I whining here, and compared to your medical issues, I'm sure this seems minimal, but hear me out.
I could not swallow, at all, and was severely dehydrating because I couldn't take in water. Since I've been laid-off, I have consequently been uninsured. Despite this, I knew I had to go to a family clinic for the cheapest form of treatment available. After one look at my throat, which was secreting blood at this point, I was told they could not treat me and I needed to get to ER immediately. I told them of my uninsured status and they made a call to Parker Adventist to prove that they would see me.

They did see me. Within a week of my recovery, I got the bill. $6,500 dollars. That's right, $6,500 dollars for treatment of strep throat. Guess what else, I am paying the bill, in arranged increments, and looking to nobody else to do so. Is the price asinine? Sure seems so. Do I wish it was not? Of course. Wanna help me pay it? Thought not.

When I say sick I am meaning something that is not going to go away. Cancer, transplant, diabeties, Etc.

People even with integrity and ability to take personal responsibility with still find a way to blame someone else for it happening to them.

I see myself as having alot of integrity and ability to take personal responsibility. But I still blame people for not getting these issues fixed and takin care of sooner.

Yes you were covered at the ER but did you know if a hospital doesn't have an ER they will not take you. Also alot of hospitals are working on taking out there ER's because it cost to much money to have them.

Ya I will help you pay for it. However I will expect the same thing in return.

[Raptor]

Wanna trade bills Gary? :) hey when we going to go riding?

Tyrel

That's okay dude, but I do wish you all the best with the situation you're facing.
A ride would be cool with me but my school schedule is pretty demanding. PM me and I'll see how my schedule looks.

Peace.:)

[t_jolt]

That's okay dude, but I do wish you all the best with the situation you're facing.
A ride would be cool with me but my school schedule is pretty demanding. PM me and I'll see how my schedule looks.

Peace.:)

its cool, im on a 6 year plan, like 400 a month. But you know how that is :)

[Raptor]

When I say sick I am meaning something that is not going to go away. Cancer, transplant, diabeties, Etc.

My point wasn't the illness, it was that I am responsible for the bill, no matter how ridiculous, yet I do not agree with the reform.


People even with integrity and ability to take personal responsibility with still find a way to blame someone else for it happening to them.

Perhaps it is this kind of pessimism that prevents you from seeing that the proposed reform is not the only answer for mankind's salvation.
I'll not argue my character with you any further. Believe what you want.


I see myself as having alot of integrity and ability to take personal responsibility. But I still blame people for not getting these issues fixed and takin care of sooner.

That's what dictates your position, versus the principles of those who do not agree with you.




Ya I will help you pay for it. However I will expect the same thing in return.

How would this be better than you paying for you, and me paying for me?

[*GSXR~SNAIL*]

Anyone ever heard the ol' "My money is my money, your money is my money too" argument?

Wow.

[Tipys]

How would this be better than you paying for you, and me paying for me?

Its simple if everyone helps out it makes things easier.

Why don't you get charged X amount more then someone else just to live?

[Raptor]

Its simple if everyone helps out it makes things easier.

As already supported, not when the distribution of help is controlled by a middle man with a notable track record for failure.


Why don't you get charged X amount more then someone else just to live?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

[*GSXR~SNAIL*]

Its simple if everyone helps out it makes things easier.

Why don't you get charged X amount more then someone else just to live?


So, if you blow the motor on your bike and I just need a new rear tire, we should pay the same for what we each need?

Or maybe all of us here in the CSC can pay the same amount to a fund, regardless if we need a new motor, a new tire or for that matter, nothing at all. Additionally, the CSC can tell me what tire I'm going to buy and what motor you're going to buy.

Sounds good! Where do I sign up?

[Tipys]

As already supported, not when the distribution of help is controlled by a middle man with a notable track record for failure.



I'm not sure I understand your question.

Why should I have to pay an extra 50k a year just to live?



So, if you blow the motor on your bike and I just need a new rear tire, we should pay the same for what we each need?

Or maybe all of us here in the CSC can pay the same amount to a fund, regardless if we need a new motor, a new tire or for that matter, nothing at all. Additionally, the CSC can tell me what tire I'm going to buy and what motor you're going to buy.

Sounds good! Where do I sign up?


Nice exsample. Funny thing is alot of motor cycle clubs do this same thing. Guess what it seems to work too.

[TFOGGuys]

Why should I have to pay an extra 50k a year just to live?


And I should have to pay an extra 10k a year so that some unemployed career burger flipper can go to the doctor to get his prescription for Vicodin filled for his "lower back pain"?

I have lived a large portion of my life without substantive health insurance.That condition has prevented me from doing some things (racing), as I could not afford it. I have been fortunate that in the time I was uninsured, I had no serious problems.The problem with having the government administer the system is the same as with every other government program: Waste, fraud, inefficiency, apathy, and abuse. I feel for you and those in similar situations, but I don't think that turning it over to the government will result in either an increase in care quality, or a reduction in costs.

[Cap'n Crunch]

“Obamacare” may not be the answer, but then again the system we have now is not working and it’s on a steep downhill slide. Fox news statistics – ha! I can somewhat relate to what Tipys is saying and you don’t really realize how broken the system is until you have a life threatening situation and cannot afford to pay for the medical costs and cannot get insurance. I’m sure that most everyone on this board has gone without health insurance at some point in life. Some people are unlucky enough to have something bad happen while they are without insurance. It happens…

There’s a lot of talk on here about personal responsibility. But, isn’t having insurance in some ways like transferring responsibility to others? Let’s say you have insurance and you suddenly need a $100,000 procedure to keep you alive. Is anyone on here going to say, “I won’t let my insurance pay for that because that is more than I have paid into the system.” and “I refuse to cause the rates to go up for other people, due to my illness” So, I guess if you want to demonstrate the ultimate “personal responsibility” you shouldn’t carry health insurance. Just show the ultimate personal responsibility and pay your own medical bills. Many people have medical insurance to cover catastrophic health issues, with which they would be receiving more benefit than what they paid into the system.

So is anyone ready to dump their insurance?

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I dont want to say this but shit happens. My son is horribly ill with pneumonia again as of sat. Yes i myself have over 30k in med bills for my 2 yearold. But guess what. I dont go bitching about how other people need to pay it for me. Thats just stupid. Im tired of hearing about this health care crap. Guess what, people made decisions when they were young. I decided to go into computers, i make money. Others when to warehouse workers, or took a job that didnt offer health care. Everyone knows before they take the job. They could of held out for a job with health care, or a better plan. But they didnt. How is that my fault? Everyone makes their own choice. Not knowing what life is going to throw at them. Im sorry. But i refuse to pay for someone's life just cause the gov wants me too. I dont care who you are. If you mean something to me. im going help. Hell even someone handing out fliers to save a life. ill probably donate a few bucks. But guess what im broke cause my son is sick. But its life. I dont go bitching to everyone about it.



Its all about the choices you've made. You could've gone to school, earlier in life. You could've paid more attention in high school got a scholarship. etc.etc.etc. It doesnt matter what the excuse are. Life happens. Thats the way it is, and thats the way its always going to be.
Bullsh!t. Many times it has exactly ZERO to do with choices. I know plenty of people more educated and smarter than I or you that are out of work thru no fault of their own and are without healthcare. Obviously you've never been thru layoffs yet. Pray you don't, especially with a sick son. But, it could happen as easily to you as it has to me or anyone else.

Sorry to hear about your son though. Best of luck to all.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

“Obamacare” may not be the answer, but then again the system we have now is not working and it’s on a steep downhill slide. Fox news statistics – ha! I can somewhat relate to what Tipys is saying and you don’t really realize how broken the system is until you have a life threatening situation and cannot afford to pay for the medical costs and cannot get insurance. I’m sure that most everyone on this board has gone without health insurance at some point in life. Some people are unlucky enough to have something bad happen while they are without insurance. It happens…

There’s a lot of talk on here about personal responsibility. But, isn’t having insurance in some ways like transferring responsibility to others? Let’s say you have insurance and you suddenly need a $100,000 procedure to keep you alive. Is anyone on here going to say, “I won’t let my insurance pay for that because that is more than I have paid into the system.” and “I refuse to cause the rates to go up for other people, due to my illness” So, I guess if you want to demonstrate the ultimate “personal responsibility” you shouldn’t carry health insurance. Just show the ultimate personal responsibility and pay your own medical bills. Many people have medical insurance to cover catastrophic health issues, with which they would be receiving more benefit than what they paid into the system.

So is anyone ready to dump their insurance?
When I moved to Cleveland I had no healthcare for over a year. When I moved here I had no healthcare for 4 years. Since March I have had no healthcare. Yeah, it sucks. Time to cut the Political perks like 100% salary retirement etc., and get a good, fair, WELL-RUN healthcare system in place.

[t_jolt]

Bullsh!t. Many times it has exactly ZERO to do with choices. I know plenty of people more educated and smarter than I or you that are out of work thru no fault of their own and are without healthcare. Obviously you've never been thru layoffs yet. Pray you don't, especially with a sick son. But, it could happen as easily to you as it has to me or anyone else.

Sorry to hear about your son though. Best of luck to all.

actually i have been through layoffs. but here is my point, they choose to stay out of work. You show me out of those laid off people that have seriously put on a suit and tie, and spent all day 8 hours going to jobs applying. Believe it or not, once i got laid off 2 years ago. this is what i did. took me 3 weeks, and then i got a job. 3 weeks, and really, i wasnt busting my ass that hard, only 6 hours a day to find another job. it is there choice to not take a job where they dont feel that there getting paid what there worth. as they could turn around and go get a job at a gas station or fast food. as they have health care. Im just saying it really is a choice. cause the jobs are out there. Hell, actually a friend of mine just got a part time job pumping human sh*t for 17 an hour. no college edu, dropped out of high school. You just have to be willing to step out of the box. What i have seen out of a lot of these people, is that there are not willing to take a pay cut right away, or let there pride get in the way, and want to wait for a job that they want.

[Pandora-11]

I'm sure many people feel empathy for you Trevor....but many do not agree with your system of providing for it. There are other ways. Meanwhile, it's my hope that you will not shoot ALL of these people who disagree with your healthcare proposal in an ugly PM like the one I got for having a conservative viewpoint about it. Or was that special to me?

[t_jolt]

[quote=Tipys;504477]Why should I have to pay an extra 50k a year just to live?[quote]
the same reason i have to pay for my son. Its the way cards were dealt. But now my question. Why should i have to pay for you to live?

[Zach929rr]

Wow @ this thread. Way to take things personal Trevor.

[Filo]

I find it interesting you are all arguing so vociferously. I take it you have read and understood all 1000+ pages of the original bill (http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf) ? I further take it you have tracked its progress as it goes through iterations? You aren't getting your take on the bill from places like Free Republic (for the conservatives) or Democratic Underground (for the libs) are you? I don't think the reform will pass, mainly because the insurance companies make way too much money on the current system and they are spending it against this bill like they are sailors on shore leave. Many of the talking points against the reform come straight from the insurance industry, and are either grossly misleading or just plain wrong.

The current system sucks. I have health insurance and I am quite unhappy with it. In the past 10 years co-pays have increased 7X, premiums 2X and coverage has dropped. (Put another way my costs have skyrocketed). I have to go 25 miles to a dermatologist because no one in Ft. Collins wants to accept my insurance company because they screw the docs on how much they pay and their claims process is a nightmare. (Put another way, my coverage has plummeted). Between me and my company we pay about $14K a year in premiums (family of 4, all healthy). The list of problems goes on and on. I *could* quit my job and go with another company or my company *could* go with another insurance company. Or we could spend a little time, put the petty bickering aside and figure out a compromise solution that would be better than what we have. I know, that sort of idea no longer sells in the era of Bill O'Reily (http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Bill_O%27Reilly) and Keith Olberman (http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Keith_Olbermann), but lets face it - we can find solutions much better if we look for them instead of calling each other ignorant assholes.

Is Obama's plan the solution? Probably not. But I am not worried about it because 1) he didn't have enough political capital to push this through and 2) the insurance companies are spending billions to make sure it fails. Think about who really runs this country.

[dirkterrell]

The current system sucks. I have health insurance and I am quite unhappy with it. In the past 10 years co-pays have increased 7X, premiums 2X and coverage has dropped. (Put another way my costs have skyrocketed). I have to go 25 miles to a dermatologist because no one in Ft. Collins wants to accept my insurance company because they screw the docs on how much they pay and their claims process is a nightmare. (Put another way, my coverage has plummeted). Between me and my company we pay about $14K a year in premiums (family of 4, all healthy). The list of problems goes on and on. I *could* quit my job and go with another company or my company *could* go with another insurance company.

This is why I think one's insurance shouldn't be tied to one's employer. Why should my employer be negotiating my insurance coverage? We need to re-do the tax benefits so that it's for individuals rather than businesses.

Dirk

[Filo]

This is why I think one's insurance shouldn't be tied to one's employer. Why should my employer be negotiating my insurance coverage? We need to re-do the tax benefits so that it's for individuals rather than businesses.

I agree the employers should get out of it. Anyone remember why the employers are providing health care - or are you all too young.

There is a problem here though Dirk. The costs are spiraling in spite of the employers. I can't afford the $14K a year needed for my insurance without a serious change in lifestyle. Most people wouldn't be able to afford it at all. The problem is not that the employers are providing health care - the problem is the health care industry (and yes, it is an industry) is getting too expensive. It is like American steel and American manufacturing. We already outsource radiology services to India. Next we will be outsourcing other procedures too (check out the VAs RoboDoc).

[arawls]

i think most people are too young to remember when employer mandated health care didn't really exist (pre-early 1970's), although, private insurance coverage has been around since 1861. Some employers in this case did it to attract employees. Exception: If you are a government worker or part of a labor union. That's been around since the 1940's.

In the 80's, companies switched from the fee-for-service to the managed plans to save money. And in 1996, congress passed madates on employers to provide mental health benefits. So government intervention in that case drove the costs back up by requiring employers to pay for your achohol/drug abuse treatment and for you to go talk to a shrink. Who uses that?

In 1965 when medicare was introduced, recipients use to pay 75% of the coverage. Compared that to today where it is about 50%. This implies having the government pay more for your coverage doesn't get you better health care.

Alternative: If your young enough you could always join the military and get the procedures done before they kick you out for a medical discharge, get a government job, or join the auto workers union (preferably in Chicago).

[Tipys]

[quote=Tipys;504477]Why should I have to pay an extra 50k a year just to live?[quote]
the same reason i have to pay for my son. Its the way cards were dealt. But now my question. Why should i have to pay for you to live?


Your talking like its a one way street. Like you and your family wouldn't get benefits either.

[dirkterrell]

There is a problem here though Dirk. The costs are spiraling in spite of the employers. I can't afford the $14K a year needed for my insurance without a serious change in lifestyle. Most people wouldn't be able to afford it at all. The problem is not that the employers are providing health care - the problem is the health care industry (and yes, it is an industry) is getting too expensive.

And I'll bet a significant fraction of those increasing expenses come because there isn't any real competition in the industry. The more distance you put in between supplier and provider, the less efficient it becomes. Some of the increase in cost is certainly due to increased capabilities for treating illnesses but the current system doesn't lend itself to price controls due to market pressures. I choose my employer-provided plan because it costs me a lot less. I would prefer to be able to choose from a dozen providers based on cost vs. what's provided. In that case, providers would have to compete for my business instead of one getting it by default because of where I happen to work.

Dirk

[MikeG]

Obama's "healthcare" is not about healthcare, it is about control.

Realistically, to lower costs the single, most simple way to lower costs would be to lift state to state restrictions. Look at how car insurance reacted to it. Second, develop a system where your insurance follows you regardless of where you work, similar to other types of insurance: life, DI, auto, etc.. Your employer will then pay into this account.

[chanke4252]

Yes Tipys I will be against any form of government control over my health care. Your premise that government is better, more efficient and more responsive to the health care needs of people doesn't hold water.

People are responsible for their own lives and cannot demand that other people pay for it. Many of you think that "harsh", "mean" or "heartless" but have yet to come up with a convincing argument to the contrary. Yet you fall for the propaganda that ObamaCare will be cheaper and provide better healthcare then the private sector (but fail to point to one program the government has ever done that).

Is it unfortunate that people fall through the cracks? Yes. Does our system need fixing? Absolutely. But I will fight tooth and nail to keep the "fixing" out of the hands of politicians who's sole motivation is control over citizens lives.

You care so much about others healthcare Tipys, et al, please give to half your paychecks to charity and quit claiming the power to make every else conform to your claimed higher morality.

The problem with this logic that somehow assumes that we aren't currently paying for other people's healthcare. I'm Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but we already are paying for the healthcare of the uninsured, and I mean that very literally. Why does an aspirin cost $15 bucks at the hospital again (that's roughly what they are charging for one these days)?

How are we going to collect an $80k hospital bill from an illegal immigrant? Well, we're not, instead we'll just put it on the tab. The drinkers here likely know how well the tab method works out when you get good and loaded (not well).

The issue isn't really about protecting those that aren't currently as well off (healthcare-wise) as some of us, but that's definitely one of the benefits.

[t_jolt]

[quote=t_jolt;504529][quote=Tipys;504477]Why should I have to pay an extra 50k a year just to live?


Your talking like its a one way street. Like you and your family wouldn't get benefits either.

What benefits are you taking about, taking more of my money to make sure i have to wait longer in line, and that my quality of care is going to drop? The only benefit out of this is that people who have made bad choices in their life get another redo. Im tired of people not standing by their choices anymore. They made the choice, they can deal with. You reap what you sew. Im tired of everyone thinking that society owe's them something to fix their life. They act as everyone else pushed them, and they had no responability in their own actions. Im sorry, but their really is no benefit to this. As people have choices, they all make their own.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

actually i have been through layoffs. but here is my point, they choose to stay out of work. You show me out of those laid off people that have seriously put on a suit and tie, and spent all day 8 hours going to jobs applying. Believe it or not, once i got laid off 2 years ago. this is what i did. took me 3 weeks, and then i got a job. 3 weeks, and really, i wasnt busting my ass that hard, only 6 hours a day to find another job. it is there choice to not take a job where they dont feel that there getting paid what there worth. as they could turn around and go get a job at a gas station or fast food. as they have health care. Im just saying it really is a choice. cause the jobs are out there. Hell, actually a friend of mine just got a part time job pumping human sh*t for 17 an hour. no college edu, dropped out of high school. You just have to be willing to step out of the box. What i have seen out of a lot of these people, is that there are not willing to take a pay cut right away, or let there pride get in the way, and want to wait for a job that they want.
Jobs are not easy to get, especially now. You got lucky, in a time when the economy is better than today. Waht I meant by layoffs is more than ONE layoff for you. I've been working professionally for longer than you've been alive, and for years at fast-food before that, and I can tell you that, sadly, you have a lot to learn about layoffs. I hope you DON'T have to learn it as I and others here did, but the way life, corporations, and especially the economy is......you will.

And, here's something you haven't thought of: for those of us in technical professions, if I have to take a job at Wall-E-Mart, it means that's x hours/day I can't be searching for a job in my profession. And, if I spend too long out of my profession, I lose some of my edge, and employers are less likely to want to hire a guy that's been off work for a while. why do you think I'm living up here in this pit? This gets worse the older you get and you'll start to run into age discrimination.

Healthcare has changed drastically for the worse since I've started my professional career in '83 especially the more greedy the healthcare system (Dr's., drug companies, etc.) have gotten. One huge gripe I have is the Taj Mahals with marble this and art that, that every medical building built in the last 15 years is. There is no need for these buildings to be so opulent. I work in a 50yr-old ex-gov't building where the roof leaks, using decades-old worn out furniture and an old PC. The medical buildings need to be clean and functional, and no more. THAT is a big part of every bill you pay.

One other thing, I saw a little mexican girl last night whose young mother looked to be barely in her 20's. This little girl obviously had some form of Down's syndrome, and it broke my heart seeing a little girl about my daughter's age (2) who could only communicate by crying and making noises. She should have been able to speak. Think her mom has health care? Now, I'm violently opposed to people sucking off the system who choose NEVER to work and are unemployable, but all of us who work and who've put in the years should not have to worry about not being covered.

[Flip]

What concerns me is- Tipys... Are you certain you would be in the front of the health care line with this Obamacare? Sorry to be blunt- dont mean to be, but what makes you think that you would truly benefit more than you are now when someone else is making the choices for you as to where the money is going to be spent? Will you fall into the "quality of life/worth spending money on" category?
Again- Please accept my apology for being an asshat- Just throwing my concerns out there.

[chanke4252]

Tipys, what's the deal mang? I know you're passionate about this topic for a health related reason, though I don't know the details. Is that too personal a thing to ask about?

[dapper]

Here's some free links for reading...

Cancer Drugs Cost (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/302/8/838-b)

(http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1627&query=TOC)Systemwide Cost Control — The Missing Link in Health Care Reform (http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1627&query=TOC)

Health Insurers at the Table — Industry Proposals for Regulation and Reform (http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1624&query=TOC)

Setbacks and Fissions — Reconsidering the Scope and Timing of Reform (http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1635&query=TOC)

Fiscal Responsibility and Health Care Reform (http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1632&query=TOC)

Edit:
CO get 2.8m in Pfizer settlement (http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=122516)
Pfizer to pay record 2.3b penalty over promotions (http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=122508)
Pfizer pleads guilty to felony crime in fraudulent marketing of Bextra, pays billions in fines (http://www.naturalnews.com/026963_Pfizer_Bextra_health.html)

Tipys, the medicare will be getting some unexpected cash back soon. Some people actually believe in the words used by Pfizer:
"We regret certain actions taken in the past, but are proud of the action we've taken to strengthen our internal controls and pioneer new procedures so that we not only comply with state and federal laws, but also meet the high standards that patients, physicians and the public expect from a leading worldwide company dedicated to healing and better health."What? Did we ask for to much as a/the BigPharm Co?

[Tipys]

[quote=Tipys;504615][quote=t_jolt;504529]

What benefits are you taking about, taking more of my money to make sure i have to wait longer in line, and that my quality of care is going to drop? The only benefit out of this is that people who have made bad choices in their life get another redo. Im tired of people not standing by their choices anymore. They made the choice, they can deal with. You reap what you sew. Im tired of everyone thinking that society owe's them something to fix their life. They act as everyone else pushed them, and they had no responability in their own actions. Im sorry, but their really is no benefit to this. As people have choices, they all make their own.

You do not know if you would have to wait longer in line, or that the quality of care would drop. Those are not facts.

Also it seems like you don't care if anyone dies over people trying to make money. As long they don't kill you.


Again the people I am fighting for on this are the ones like myself. That are preexiting and can not get healthcare. Also currently being told by the goverment to just go and die we don't care.

[zetaetatheta]

I'm with you Tipsy, you should be allowed to buy health insurance at a reasonable cost. You did not choose to have a bad ticker and I believe America is a better country than to let folks die because of money. Some things are outside of our control. How much are our children worth? "Sorry honey we gotta let little Suzi die cause Aetna said no to the surgery." Tipsy is an American, I know him and he would die for his country if asked to do so, but his country is not willing work for him--this is bullshit! Tipsy pays taxes, he funds a war he may not agree with but he does it. All he is asking for is a chance to have what a lot of us have.

I don't see Tipsy as wanting anything for free, just a chance to buy insurance. I hope all those that hate the government so much they will turn down MediCare and Social Security. I'll personally trust any health care government program over any insurance company any day. If one truly believes insurance companies are looking out for your best interests, then one will never listen to the other side of the argument.

I have have government sponsored health care for 34 years, in the early years it sucked--no doubt. Today it is as good as any I have ever seen. I can get an appt the same day or next day anywhere in the country and go to any emergency room in the world, get my medicine free and cover a family of 4 for less than $40 per month. Yea, I worked 20 years for the benefit, but I understand Tipsy tried to do the same but the military didn't want him because of his heart.

I feel for you Tipsy. Unfortunatly this is typical Rep/Dem politics nowadays and no one will change their minds, so the only way for change to occur is at the polls. Obama won with health care reform on his platform and I will hold him to it or vote for someone that will. You have at least one here on your side....Hang in there bud.

[chanke4252]

actually i have been through layoffs. but here is my point, they choose to stay out of work. You show me out of those laid off people that have seriously put on a suit and tie, and spent all day 8 hours going to jobs applying. Believe it or not, once i got laid off 2 years ago. this is what i did. took me 3 weeks, and then i got a job. 3 weeks, and really, i wasnt busting my ass that hard, only 6 hours a day to find another job. it is there choice to not take a job where they dont feel that there getting paid what there worth. as they could turn around and go get a job at a gas station or fast food. as they have health care. Im just saying it really is a choice. cause the jobs are out there. Hell, actually a friend of mine just got a part time job pumping human sh*t for 17 an hour. no college edu, dropped out of high school. You just have to be willing to step out of the box. What i have seen out of a lot of these people, is that there are not willing to take a pay cut right away, or let there pride get in the way, and want to wait for a job that they want.

It's a lot different these days than it was even just 2 yrs ago. yes, you gotta do what you need to do to pay the bills, but people typically do that I think when it comes down to it. A lot of people I know who have been laid off ahve been in a position to be slightly picky and still float, and that's ok. also, it's hard to find certain jobs when you work all day every day just to pay the bills. looking for a job is a full time job.