Saturn going the way of the Ponti... er.... Dodo

[~Barn~]

GM to shut down Saturn after Penske ends talks... (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33107120/ns/business-autos/)

[puckstr]

FAGS

I Love my Saturn. Typical Stupid Fucks at GM

[Captain Obvious]

First thing I thought of was the Saturn commercial of the black dude saying "I just saw the commercial about where a dealer would take your car back if you bought one and then lost your job. That sounds like the worst day ever."

[Canuck]

Saturn= One of many P.O.S cars produced from the General.
Good riddance.

[dapper]

Saturn= One of many P.O.S cars produced from the General.
Good riddance.
:lol:As if...VW / Audi has fault free vehicles :lol:

[King Nothing]

if saturn had any history (they don't) I might shed a tear. They had a good idea but backed it up with crappy cars until they finally got rebadged opels. They got those way too late to save their ass. No RIP from me. Good riddance. Pontiac at least made some sweet stuff in their history. The same can't be said about saturn.

[Canuck]

:lol:As if...VW / Audi has fault free vehicles :lol:

No vehicle is perfect but Auto Union (VAG) brands are light years ahead in quality, technology, overall drivability and fun factor.

[The Black Knight]

First thing I thought of was the Saturn commercial of the black dude saying "I just saw the commercial about where a dealer would take your car back if you bought one and then lost your job. That sounds like the worst day ever."
That's the first thing I thought of too when I heard Saturn was taking a dive. Wonder if they'll pull that commercial now??

[sugarrey]

i gotta say that all the saturn owners I know (4 people) all had mechanical issue and would never buy again, and I like GM cars.

[Jim_Vess]

I owe a Saturn. 150K miles and no major mechanical issues.

For what the Saturn was intended for - a basic cheap commuter - it's a great car. It gets me from point A to Point B on very little gas (35 mpg city) and costs practically nothing to insure. It does just what I want a car to do. I would buy another one ... well ... not anymore.

I drive because I have to, I ride because I want to.

[CaptGoodvibes]

:lol:As if...VW / Audi has fault free vehicles :lol:

I'm on my third VW and wouldn't hesitate to get another when it's time. They've been trouble free and come standard with Fahrvergnügen. :D

[200sr20]

GM=one stupid decision after another

[TheStig]

I have to admit I was really hoping Penske would do some cool stuff with the brand but that ain't gonna happen. I really liked the new VUE (I know, kinda gay) and was hoping they would bring over a faster version of the Astra or whatever they call it here.

I luuuurrrrrv my VW!

[Matty]

my first car was a Saturn SC2. It did me well for a first car, i think i put something like 90,XXX miles on it before i bought a new vehicle.

[konichd]

As long as Buick sticks around thats all I care about :)

[Stuart Little]

A saturn was my first car, you either get lemons or bulletproof machines, I sold mine at twice it's BB value with 195k on the engine and had never had a single engine problem, replaced several clutches, alternators, batteries, etc. but that's all to be expected with the miles.

All totaled my immediate family (2 brothers and 2 parents) have owned 10 GM cars in the past 20 years and none have been lemons.

That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to own a non-american car it just comes down to price vs. features for me and the fact that I won't really be earning decent money until next year at some point.

[puckstr]

I owe a Saturn. 150K miles and no major mechanical issues.

For what the Saturn was intended for - a basic cheap commuter - it's a great car. It gets me from point A to Point B on very little gas (35 mpg city) and costs practically nothing to insure. It does just what I want a car to do. I would buy another one ... well ... not anymore.

I drive because I have to, I ride because I want to.


I get 40mpg HWY in my SL2:). When gas hits $4.00 a gallon or MORE (which it will)
I will be still getting preimum millage. Yeah it has some rattles but she just keeps going and going.
I can't wait to see the Gas sucking SUV drivers boo-hooing when gas prices soar again:cry:.

[Stuart Little]

As long as Buick sticks around thats all I care about :)

We know, momma needs a new Enclave right :)

[MileHighColt]

No tears here either. I know a few people who have had Saturns and some were good and some were bad, just like damn near every other make out there. Personally, I never liked their styling and couldn't get past the original plastic cars. Unfortunately, Saturn was a good idea, with very poor implementation. GM is going in the right direction by limiting the models and the newer models are looking nice so far. I've never owned a GM, always been Ford, VW, Nissan, but if GM can show me that they've done something right, I'll take a look.

[asp_125]

If cutting Saturn is going to help the Corvette and CTS-V stick around then :up:

[puckstr]

I hope every GM product Goes down the SHITTER

[pauliep]

Screw what you all say. I've been driving a my Vue for almost two years. Sucks I have the base model but mine has taken a beating and does great on gas. Not a single problem yet. I plan to drive this thing to the dirt!

[Mel]

I had a Saturn when I was young (18 )...liked it, drove it for about 40K miles (few issues, mostly related to dealer installing a clutch wrong). Then I sold it and bought an Audi...then another, and another. I have to say, GM going down doesn't bother me in the least, as long as they keep bringing over Audi's (mmmm bi-turbo goodness) :-).

[DavidofColorado]

I hope every GM product Goes down the SHITTER
I do too, but at the same time I wish that it gets bought out and remade better then ever. That's not going to happen with the government in charge of it. We are going to have a welfare car maker like Russia had and nobody is going to want one even when they are forced to have it or nothing.

[mathman1000]

Any company that is related to Hummer, in any way, deserves to take a crap. A company that has the audacity to make Hummers, and supply the American fueled greed for "Bigger is Better" (aka an insecurity problem/little dick syndrome), should not surprise anyone when they go out of business.

Instead of focusing on things that make sense we have crap like the Tahoe Hybrid??? WTF?? Oh gee, it gets 20mpg on the hwy instead of 15mpg, and it's only $55k, what a deal.

[Zoom]

My first car was a SL-1 and I drove the piss out of that thing. I put 100,000 miles on it (130,000 total on the car) and then traded it in for my current RAV, because I needed more cargo space. I never had a single major issue with it, only had to replace a motor mount and one alternator in the 7 or 8 years I owned it.

[puckstr]

Any company that is related to Hummer, in any way, deserves to take a crap. A company that has the audacity to make Hummers, and supply the American fueled greed for "Bigger is Better" (aka an insecurity problem/little dick syndrome), should not surprise anyone when they go out of business.

Instead of focusing on things that make sense we have crap like the Tahoe Hybrid??? WTF?? Oh gee, it gets 20mpg on the hwy instead of 15mpg, and it's only $55k, what a deal.

GM killed the EV-1 to bring out the Hummer.
With thinking like that it is no wonder that GM sucks.

Now they kill Saturn.... Bravo another GM stroke of Genius.

I guess the soccer mom's can keep driving there "Entitled" offspring in OVER-SIZED gas drinking SUVs.

I SAY BRING ON HIGH GAS PRICES.

[DavidofColorado]

You can't haul a boat with a Subaru, audio, econo box car. And I don't care what people drive but it amuses me when I pass hybrids stuck in the snow and I am cruising by them in my truck.

Still feel superior to those that drive cars for all seasons or is that just the cold? Or at least that's what I would say if I rolled down the window but I don't its cold out there.

[mathman1000]

GM killed the EV-1 to bring out the Hummer.
With thinking like that it is no wonder that GM sucks.

Now they kill Saturn.... Bravo another GM stroke of Genius.

I guess the soccer mom's can keep driving there "Entitled" offspring in OVER-SIZED gas drinking SUVs.

I SAY BRING ON HIGH GAS PRICES.


Bravo!!!! I am one of the few that understand what you mean about the high gas prices, and agree. Hey, what are we saying, it's your god given right to drive your Suburban to the pick up the soccer kid and buy a gallon of milk on the way........You wanna feel "safe" out there driving.

Yeah, the EV1, WTF?? GM took those cars away from people screaming in protest to keep them........so they could destroy them??? AND, their idea of an economy car is an Aveo, seriously? Just compare the build quality of the Cobalt or Saturn to say........a Civic or a Corolla. It's like buying a Buell and finding out later that you really didn't get a liter bike.

[DavidofColorado]

Who cares what other people drive? How does that work? Do you get points for judging people? Is there a benefit from having everyone drive what you drive?

[Speedwagon]

Any company that is related to Hummer, in any way, deserves to take a crap. A company that has the audacity to make Hummers, and supply the American fueled greed for "Bigger is Better" (aka an insecurity problem/little dick syndrome), should not surprise anyone when they go out of business.

Instead of focusing on things that make sense we have crap like the Tahoe Hybrid??? WTF?? Oh gee, it gets 20mpg on the hwy instead of 15mpg, and it's only $55k, what a deal.

When the best selling vehicles are continuously trucks, of course they are going to come out with a hybrid! 35% of the top ten vehicles are trucks.

For 2008, the winners are:
Ford F-150 (515,513)
Chevy Silverado (465,065)
Toyota Camry (436,617)
Honda Accord (372,789)
Toyota Corolla (351,007)
Honda Civic (339,289)
Nissan Altima (269,668)
Chevy Impala (265,840)
Dodge Ram (245,840)
Honda CR-V (197,279)

The F-series has been dominating the new vehicle market for over a decade. When Americans start buying fuel efficient vehicles, the companies will start making more of them. The standard Camry and Accord only get 31 highway, and about 22 city. When you start to see the Civics, Corollas, and hybrid taking the top 4 spots... maybe GM will start to build more of those types of vehicles.

To me, it clearly says American's don't want fuel efficient vehicles, we just want to talk about them.

[The Black Knight]

I think those statistics also tell us, that America is a very truck driven culture as well. There is not a day that goes by that I don't see someone hauling or towing something around town.

Yeah you know, econo cars and hybrids are nice and all. But they are small and aside from being able to seat 4 or 5 people(or groceries)they are useless for anything else. You can't haul or tow anything with them. Most are not 4X4. So they have pros and cons.

I always hate hearing from some burlap and hemp wearing whiner of "why don't you have whatever you have that's big delivered?"

Because I don't feel like it!! and I'd rather not pay a shipping fee, to have something moved that I can do myself. Moving companies aren't exactly cheap.

I think it's also more prevalent here in Colorado(western states especially) to see more trucks and bigger vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I don't really see a point to SUV's or Hummers but I think Trucks of any kind are as practical as cars. In such mountain states where bigger vehicles are needed, added the need for 4X4 because of our weather, you'll always see an up tick in truck and SUV sales.

I think it boils down to driving what you want and being happy. Yeah you'll always have the tree hugging Prius and other hybrids pissed because you're truck makes up three of their cars. But you'll never change that, people will always hate what someone else is doing or driving. Myself, I love putting rattling sound of my Cummins right in some hybrid drivers side window, or pull up enough to they can taste some diesel exhaust with their morning foo foo drink.

Just drive what makes you happy and fits your needs.

[Speedwagon]

I think those statistics also tell us, that America is a very truck driven culture as well. There is not a day that goes by that I don't see someone hauling or towing something around town.

Yeah you know, econo cars and hybrids are nice and all. But they are small and aside from being able to seat 4 or 5 people(or groceries)they are useless for anything else. You can't haul or tow anything with them. Most are not 4X4. So they have pros and cons.

I always hate hearing from some burlap and hemp wearing whiner of "why don't you have whatever you have that's big delivered?"

Because I don't feel like it!! and I'd rather not pay a shipping fee, to have something moved that I can do myself. Moving companies aren't exactly cheap.

I think it's also more prevalent here in Colorado(western states especially) to see more trucks and bigger vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I don't really see a point to SUV's or Hummers but I think Trucks of any kind are as practical as cars. In such mountain states where bigger vehicles are needed, added the need for 4X4 because of our weather, you'll always see an up tick in truck and SUV sales.

I think it boils down to driving what you want and being happy. Yeah you'll always have the tree hugging Prius and other hybrids pissed because you're truck makes up three of their cars. But you'll never change that, people will always hate what someone else is doing or driving. Myself, I love putting rattling sound of my Cummins right in some hybrid drivers side window, or pull up enough to they can taste some diesel exhaust with their morning foo foo drink.

Just drive what makes you happy and fits your needs.

I don't have a problem with you owning whatever you want to, but...

4x4 is not needed by most of the people, even in this state.
Trucks are not needed by most of the people, even in this state.

Most of the people live in the city. For this state, that would be Denver, CO Springs, Pueblo, and Grand Junction. They plow the streets in these cities, so you can get by just fine with a good set of tires and a FWD vehicle.

And I would argue that the few times people need to move something in a pickup, you could just rent one for far cheaper than owning one.

Full size trucks are not economical at all. An F-150 starts at $21,380, and that's with nothing on the vehicle. I can get a well equipped car for that much.

Why do you need to haul more than 4 or 5 people? Why do you need a full size vehicle at all? If you need to haul more because someone is visiting, you can rent a larger vehicle for a lot less than owning one.

Again, I don't really care what you drive. But it'd be nice if people bought a vehicle that actually fit their needs, rather than gave them the impression they are somehow important because they can go massively into debt. Driving what, as you said, fits your needs, is not a full size SUV or pickup for a family of 4 that lives in the city.

[The Black Knight]

I don't have a problem with you owning whatever you want to, but...

4x4 is not needed by most of the people, even in this state.
Trucks are not needed by most of the people, even in this state.

Most of the people live in the city. For this state, that would be Denver, CO Springs, Pueblo, and Grand Junction. They plow the streets in these cities, so you can get by just fine with a good set of tires and a FWD vehicle.

And I would argue that the few times people need to move something in a pickup, you could just rent one for far cheaper than owning one.

Full size trucks are not economical at all. An F-150 starts at $21,380, and that's with nothing on the vehicle. I can get a well equipped car for that much.

Why do you need to haul more than 4 or 5 people? Why do you need a full size vehicle at all? If you need to haul more because someone is visiting, you can rent a larger vehicle for a lot less than owning one.

Again, I don't really care what you drive. But it'd be nice if people bought a vehicle that actually fit their needs, rather than gave them the impression they are somehow important because they can go massively into debt. Driving what, as you said, fits your needs, is not a full size SUV or pickup for a family of 4 that lives in the city.
Yeah but who gets to make the official announcement on "what fits the needs" of a specific family in the City? Saying someone doesn't need a truck or SUV, is akin to me saying "someone doesn't need a little car." It's a matter of opinion and can't be based on anything but pure opinion.

4X4 is in my opinion needed in this state. While you might think that these cities actually plow the streets. That's not true. Colorado Springs plows only do major arteries(i.e. emergency routes and school routes, then main roads) and "IF" they can, will try and plow the secondary and neighborhood roads.

In my part of town(Stetson Hills) back in 2006/2007 Winter we got pounded with two back to back Blizzards and had 7 consecutive weekends where we go snow after the Blizzards. I saw what you would recommend everyone drive "little cars with either front or rear wheel drive" buried under snow for 2 weeks. Yeah those little cars did a hell of a lot of good for those people who needed to get to work or where ever buried in the snow. Now those were freak storms and my end of town got hit very hard by the storms. Only trucks could get around(not even SUV's if they didn't have the clearance).

As far as trucks being needed by most people in this state. People that I would classify in the "Most" category are ones using their trucks. Kind of hard to pull a skidsteer or horse trailer behind a Prius?? Kind of hard to move or haul a couch or whatever in the back of an Honda Insight??

As far as truck being economical, that's opinion again. What you might view as excessive, I might view as practical. I think we walk a fine line when our opinions get in the mix. You can give me 5 reasons not to justify a truck, and I can give 5 reasons TO justify a truck and vice versa with a little car.

I'm not even going to get into renting a vehicle for hauling people because that is blatant wasteful in my opinion. It also shows that you're cheap.

Back to the "Fits your needs" real quick. I can't speak for any families of 4, but I'm a single guy who drives a 3/4 truck. Why? because for one, I love trucks, two I've got a camper that would flatten any 1/2 ton truck, hence why I need the payload of a 3/4 and it even puts a hurt on a 3/4 ton. I could have got a 1 ton. And three I love having 4X4.

And I can totally own up to the fact that I just love driving a truck because I can. Been into trucks since I was in highschool. Yeah I've had cars but always been a truck guy. Had several over the years. I love trucks because they are big, loud, un-refined and basically irreverent. They buck the status quo and that's what I love about them. The fact that when I'm driving down the road and get a dirty look from some hugger in a hybrid, completely makes my day :)

[DavidofColorado]

The parts for hybrids are getting harder for the makers to find too. Stop raping the earth hippys!!

The only down side to a truck is the economy of the gas milage. Everything else is great about it.

The only thing good about a small car is the milage and everything else sucks about it. Both get you where your going but a truck is a better all around vehicle for someone that wants one. A prius is only good for going to the coffee shop. A SUV is only good for 4 wheeling on pavement.
But with a small car you get to act superior to everyone else when really your just being pretentious.
I wished I had a econobox car when the gas was high but my truck has served me better than any small car could. And its safer in a wreck too. But let people drive small cars it keeps more gas at the pumps and the demand down so people like me can fill up my 25 gallon tank without feeling raped. If you can get by with a small car or afford a small car for trivial tasks that is what Americans should do not snubb their noses at a truck full of contrution workers because they are in a truck. Can't we all just get along?

[whitebrad]

my partner has an old raggedy scout... it got 13-14 mpg...

we put a homemade hydrogen system on it and now he gets 22-24 mpg

the funny part about it? we had to get it inspected and had the hydrogen kit on it. They hooked it up and then made us remove the hydrogen kit because ti was running too clean... apparently if a car runs too clean it is a diluted sample... go figure...

stoopid gubment hippies

[DavidofColorado]

How did you compensate for the extra fuel from the hydrogen? Or did you just add it on top on the regular gas feed? I'm assuming you had a carbureted scout.

[whitebrad]

yeah, it is next to impossible to try and figure out that kit on injection... i think it is something we are going to try with a throttle body injector over the winter if we can find enough time...

but yea, we just ran it into the intake... pretty easy, really

[DavidofColorado]

I was wondering about that on a carburated car because you would just make it run richer and not really use less gas unless you made it run lean and made up the difference with HHO. I've seen ideas out there from running on six pack of bottles to a big dome and single plates. Its still something I want to try. Hydrogen has 4 times the energy of gas and its cheaper... and its cleaner:jerkoff:. But all my cars run off a carburator and you have to manually change the jets. A fuel injected car will adjust itself (I think) via the oxygen sensors so it should automaticly inject less fuel and send it back to the tank.

[whitebrad]

i think that the hydrogen kit on injection would completely fowl the computer, i am not sure... my computer friend (mad modder) and my mechanic friend were in charge and fabricated it...

i just helped install, and generally supervised the whole thing, making sure there was no fuckery about...

[mathman1000]

Great hearing the differing opinions out there....... We all have our opinions; it's just great living in a country where we can express them.

I have to say to the truck drivers though, I'd be willing to bet that 90-95% of them don't use them for their true purpose. I also understand that having 2 cars to do the work of one isn't always feasible. I'm just still pissed off because of some jack-ass that turned the corner the other day (in his diesel flat bed converted Dodge), floored it the entire length of the city block, filling the air with an cloud of smoke the entire length of the street. I bicycle to work everyday, and guess what? I had the pleasure of riding through that shit sucking it all in, but not the guy who did it, he's too cool to have to deal with that.

Being judgmental about what people drive? Yep! Because when some single driver hits a person driving their GIANT suv and kills them...........that's right, the person in the car deserves it because it's our choice to do what we want and ef everyone else......."All that matters is me! Damit!"

Oh, the comment above of "can't tow a boat with a Subaru", the I6 Subaru motor has a towing capacity of 5,000lbs. That takes care of most peoples needs.

Also, did anyone notice that no one above mentioned trucks? It's stupid vehicles like the Toyota Sequoia, Chevy Tahoe/Suburban, Dodge Durango, Ford Excursion, Hummers, blah blah blah. Useless vehicles.

Oh yeah, I don't drive a Prius either, they haven't figured out the batteries. High efficient gas motors & fully electric motors are the way to go, with recyclable batteries.

Funny, if you say giant SUV's are stupid, and mention how much pollution diesels put out, you are automatically labeled a "hippie", how narrow minded. Sad. I guess caring about others on the road, not pouring out polution into the environment, and generally trying to be a good stuard of the planet makes a person a "hippie". WTF?

[whitebrad]

mathman, like your sig, by the way... i did not invent the wheel i am the crooked spoke adjacent

my one confusion is about electric cars... in order to create electricity, most providers are using coal as a fuel. coal is actually really dirty energy. using that method, gasoline would seem to be a better choice, except for the difference in reserves... (coal is more plentiful...)

other than the fact that coal is far more polluting and that the charging of the batteries would cause more emissions, and therefore negate any gain of electricity as a fuel, i think it is a great idea...
i guess it depends on what you believe, if we are destroying the earth or not...

i will remain neutral, as it is sort of inconclusive, except for the comparrisons in Revelations...

[mathman1000]

mathman, like your sig, by the way... i did not invent the wheel i am the crooked spoke adjacent

my one confusion is about electric cars... in order to create electricity, most providers are using coal as a fuel. coal is actually really dirty energy. using that method, gasoline would seem to be a better choice, except for the difference in reserves... (coal is more plentiful...)

other than the fact that coal is far more polluting and that the charging of the batteries would cause more emissions, and therefore negate any gain of electricity as a fuel, i think it is a great idea...
i guess it depends on what you believe, if we are destroying the earth or not...

i will remain neutral, as it is sort of inconclusive, except for the comparrisons in Revelations...

Nice reply.....

Ok, so here's my idea (technology isn't here yet......) Everyone has solar pannels on the roofs that feed into the grid. Use that power to charge car batteries, run everything in the home, and all excess runs to the grid. Whatever you produce and don't use (and gets fed back into the grid), you get paid from the electric company for. Solar man, it's free, it's clean, and it's not going to run out for a few billion years. I don't think the technology is that far out, but soon hopefully.

I guess the problem I see is this; as long as our country/world keeps heading in the direction of glutiny, it won't happen. Gas at $7 a gallon would force us to do these things, and unfortunately it would take something like that to make it happen. I don't have faith in our society that it would happen otherwise; just look at GM's aim for the last 10 years.....bigger, more, mine's bigger than yours......... And it's not just GM, all manufactures are following suit because of the Americas dream of having huge vehicles.

[whitebrad]

yeah, those new microthin super efficient cells, solar could revolutionize the industry... not a bad plan, but if i were the god of energy i would invest in microstations, the concept that is just starting to take root. The number one loss of power is from waste, the waste of electricity in transmission, down the lines for so long and etc... microstations could cure that, make a liveable, viable grid, and feed the areas around it for reabsorption into the grid if needed... of course if it ends up costing more money to build microstations, it would mean having to wait for a while longer to make them, or the solar cells more efficient so that the power loss during transmission would negate itself...


Put one up shackle me, not clean logic procreation
I did invent the wheel, in a previous generation
While the triple sixers lassos keep angels roped in the basement
I locate modern halos and pass em out to the pavement...

you up on sole?

you ever see jel do that drum machine?

[Captain Obvious]

The negative environmental impact on the planet of finding all the fancy materials to make a hybrid/electirc/etc is greater than the impact on the environment of driving a car that gets 10 mpg worse.

Even better, just go buy a old used vehicle where the impact of the construction is a sunk cost on the environment (from 20 years ago) and the mpg is worse, but only by 15?mpg. You have to drive your pretty little electric/hybrid car for some 20 odd years to catch up on my vehicle being much more environmentally friendly.

Behold
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/funksouljon/stuff/volvo/newford001.jpg

[Captain Obvious]

I think it's also more prevalent here in Colorado(western states especially) to see more trucks and bigger vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I don't really see a point to SUV's or Hummers but I think Trucks of any kind are as practical as cars.

Not really. Suburbans were nominated as the official vehicle of Texas due to sales. Read an article that more Suburbans were sold in Texas annually that the rest of the world combined. Go to the south, there are prolly more trucks there than out here. Every good redneck needs a pickup, it is in our blood. There are more Subarus out here though.

I agree on the rest though. If I need a truck, does it make sense for me to have a car and a truck? Being self reliant with a truck is a great thing. Tow what I want, go to hardware store and purchase what I want, go pick up crashed riders. Lets see a dorky Prius carry plywood (or a twin mattress).

[Captain Obvious]

And I would argue that the few times people need to move something in a pickup, you could just rent one for far cheaper than owning one.


Not if you really tow or move stuff.

Most auto rental agencies rent trucks that don't have tow hitches. Is it worth the time to go to Avis, rent a truck for $50 per day (in town), go run your errands, renturn said vehicle? Not in my book. I sold my truck and got a car (first time in 7 years I didn't have a pickup) and within a month realized how much I couldn't do that I normally do.

[DavidofColorado]

Nice reply.....

Ok, so here's my idea (technology isn't here yet......) Everyone has solar pannels on the roofs that feed into the grid. Use that power to charge car batteries, run everything in the home, and all excess runs to the grid. Whatever you produce and don't use (and gets fed back into the grid), you get paid from the electric company for. Solar man, it's free, it's clean, and it's not going to run out for a few billion years. I don't think the technology is that far out, but soon hopefully.
Its here but its cost prohibitive. And the electric company gets to charge you a minimum for using their service and if enough people do it, they will jack their prices up to make up for lost revenue and those that don't switch get higher prices for the same services.
Its a good plan but it has some problems with it. I would do for sure. I seen some new buildings with the solor cells built into the windows. They collect rain water for cooling the building. I think growing grass on the roof is a bit much since nobody really cares about roofs unless they are leaking. But they trying.


I guess the problem I see is this; as long as our country/world keeps heading in the direction of glutiny, it won't happen. Gas at $7 a gallon would force us to do these things, and unfortunately it would take something like that to make it happen.

See forcing gas prices that high just because you appointed yourself stuart of the Earth is wrong and that makes you a hippy.



I don't have faith in our society that it would happen otherwise; just look at GM's aim for the last 10 years.....bigger, more, mine's bigger than yours......... And it's not just GM, all manufactures are following suit because of the Americas dream of having huge vehicles.
Making cars and trucks that would sell instead of forcing a car that you think they should have. Where to they get off? Those capitalist pigs!! Oh wait, they are in the business to make money and making cars that would sell goes great with the idea of making money. It pays for itself and all those lazy unions on the workers asses.

Again, who died and made you boss of what America should drive?

[puckstr]

This will be my next vehicle
:music:America FUCK YEAH:music:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/122/288300713_740e385fed.jpg
I will make sure to put some Rubber tecticles on it to
And a NASCAR sticker (RIP #3)

[longrider]

I can do better than that:

[DavidofColorado]

That'll get r dun! Those will pull a tree stump out of the ground and a trailer with all the kids in the car with Chuck Norris playing tug of war on the other end of the stump.

[mathman1000]

That'll get r dun! Those will pull a tree stump out of the ground and a trailer with all the kids in the car with Chuck Norris playing tug of war on the other end of the stump.


:headbang:

I can't stop laughing........ You won't need a NASCAR sticker or the plastic balls, because that's the NASCAR Limited Edition version, and the balls....well they're chrome BITCHES! YEHAWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mathman1000]

This will be my next vehicle
:music:America FUCK YEAH:music:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/122/288300713_740e385fed.jpg
I will make sure to put some Rubber tecticles on it to
And a NASCAR sticker (RIP #3)


Hey wait, isn't that a GM or Ford? So glad my tax dollars are going to help out bankrupt compaines that produce shit like that.

Agreed; America FUCK YEAH!

[DavidofColorado]

This will be my next vehicle
:music:America FUCK YEAH:music:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/122/288300713_740e385fed.jpg
I will make sure to put some Rubber tecticles on it to
And a NASCAR sticker (RIP #3)
I'm sure they have a use for something that big. Maybe it will pull a 53' trailer? But you won't need a huge 18 wheeler to do it. I don't know but if you can afford the gas for it I won't judge. That doesn't mean that others won't know what best for you.

ETA: You and I see these trucks all the time and don't notice it. Instead of a bed they have a cherry picker or some other heavy duty equipment attached to it. This seems rare to see one like that.

[The Black Knight]

Great hearing the differing opinions out there....... We all have our opinions; it's just great living in a country where we can express them.

I have to say to the truck drivers though, I'd be willing to bet that 90-95% of them don't use them for their true purpose. I also understand that having 2 cars to do the work of one isn't always feasible. I'm just still pissed off because of some jack-ass that turned the corner the other day (in his diesel flat bed converted Dodge), floored it the entire length of the city block, filling the air with an cloud of smoke the entire length of the street. I bicycle to work everyday, and guess what? I had the pleasure of riding through that shit sucking it all in, but not the guy who did it, he's too cool to have to deal with that.

Being judgmental about what people drive? Yep! Because when some single driver hits a person driving their GIANT suv and kills them...........that's right, the person in the car deserves it because it's our choice to do what we want and ef everyone else......."All that matters is me! Damit!"

Oh, the comment above of "can't tow a boat with a Subaru", the I6 Subaru motor has a towing capacity of 5,000lbs. That takes care of most peoples needs.

Funny, if you say giant SUV's are stupid, and mention how much pollution diesels put out, you are automatically labeled a "hippie", how narrow minded. Sad. I guess caring about others on the road, not pouring out polution into the environment, and generally trying to be a good stuard of the planet makes a person a "hippie". WTF?

One comment about Diesel smoke and when you see it. You are aware of the fact that Diesel's are actually LESS POLLUTING than Gasoline Engines?? Diesel is the by product of what goes into manufacturing Gasoline. So in fact Diesels burn up what's up left, hence the high compression needed to combust the fuel, and no spark plugs required. Also have you ever noticed that Diesel smoke does no ascend into the Atmosphere?? Yet actually descends to the ground. Having almost zero O zone affect. Here's some quick advantages of Diesel engines:
Major advantages Diesel engines have several advantages over other internal combustion engines:


They burn less fuel than a petrol engine performing the same work, due to the engine's high efficiency.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#cite_note-bmmWW-0)
They have no high-tension electrical ignition system to attend to, resulting in high reliability and easy adaptation to damp environments. The absence of coils, spark plug wires, etc., also eliminates a source of radio frequency emissions which can interfere with navigation and communication equipment and the like, which is especially important in marine and aircraft applications.
They can deliver much more of their rated power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_power) on a continuous basis than a petrol engine.
The life of a diesel engine is generally about twice as long as that of a petrol engine[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#cite_note-13) due to the increased strength of parts used, also because diesel fuel has better lubrication properties than petrol.
Diesel fuel is considered safer than petrol in many applications. Although diesel fuel will burn in open air using a wick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candle_wick), it will not explode and does not release a large amount of flammable vapour. The low vapor pressure of diesel is especially advantageous in marine applications, where the accumulation of explosive fuel-air mixtures is a particular hazard.
For any given partial load the fuel efficiency (mass burned per energy produced) of a diesel engine remains nearly constant, as opposed to petrol and turbine engines which use proportionally more fuel with partial power outputs.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#cite_note-14)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#cite_note-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#cite_note-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#cite_note-17)
They generate less waste heat in cooling and exhaust.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#cite_note-bmmWW-0)
With a diesel, boost pressure is limited only by the strength of the engine components not predetonation of the fuel charge as in petrol engines.
The carbon monoxide content of the exhaust is minimal, therefore diesel engines are used in underground mines.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#cite_note-18)

Diesel engines aren't as polluting as the typical Ozone, Tree hugger driven media and politicians would have you believe.

I don't get your comment about the larger vs. smaller vehicle accident. You'll have to clarify that one better. But the vibe I'm getting is that it's wrong for larger vehicles to be on the road, as they can withstand impacts alot better and offer better protection??

Yeah a Subaru may be "RATED" for 5000lb towing capacity. But can it do it every day, day in and day out?? Can the brakes on that car stop the weight that is behind it, in a reasonable amount of time?? Because that car is actually towing more than it weighs and will it be able to stop it??

A truck can. Hence the larger brakes on 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. Not to mention trailer brakes and now they are offering exhaust brakes(think Jake Brake) on 3/4 and 1 ton trucks now. All of the things I just mentioned allow a truck to be able to tow very heavy weights and be able to stop them as well. Not to mention beefed up chassis and drivelines.

Only thing I'd trust behind a Subaru towing is maybe a Dirt bike or Sportbike. Other than that, you're gambling towing anything much more than that.

Lastly, yeah you are being a hippie slamming trucks and the sort. It's how we get things done in this country. That is as you say, the great thing about this country. We have what we need to get things done around here.

I guess we could always go back to pushing blocks of stone on logs with ropes, or having 90 people carrying bags of "quick crete" instead of having a Concrete Mixer doing the job for them.


The negative environmental impact on the planet of finding all the fancy materials to make a hybrid/electirc/etc is greater than the impact on the environment of driving a car that gets 10 mpg worse.

Even better, just go buy a old used vehicle where the impact of the construction is a sunk cost on the environment (from 20 years ago) and the mpg is worse, but only by 15?mpg. You have to drive your pretty little electric/hybrid car for some 20 odd years to catch up on my vehicle being much more environmentally friendly.

I agree totally!! and wish I could find the study my friend at work was just talking about the other day. Something to the effect of, these College guys did an experiment on two vehicles. Toyota Prius and GM Hummer. They broke down the actual DOLLAR to DOLLAR operating expense for each Vehicle. The crazy part is the Toyota Prius actually cost about $3.50 a mile to operate, whereas the GM Hummer H2 was around .34 cents.

How is it possible?? Well the H2 is just a regular old gas powered vehicle. Yeah it's a petrol sucker but that's where it stops.

The Toyota Prius, actually costs more to manufacture than the H2. Because they took into account that the area in Canada where they mine the Nickel for the batteries is actually killing everything(said it looked like the surface of the moon around the mine, just desolate) within a 1 to 2 mile radius around the Nickel Mine. The environmental impacts are very severe here. Next the mineral is then shipped to Japan for processing. It gets moved again in Japan to be made into the Batteries that power these cars. It then gets SHIPPED back to the USA where they are then installed in the cars.

With the mining, back and forth shipping and man hours put into developing the Prius, it was determined that the car would take several years if not Decades to produce a good rate of return on the money you spent.

The other black eye for the Prius is, that in 100,000 miles the batteries are no good. You have to replace every 100k, to the tune of about $10,000.

Whereas the knuckle dragging H2 will continue to suck petrol but has no negative impacts left by it as far as manufacturing goes. Other than O zone impact.

$3.50 a mile for the Prius
$.34 a mile for the H2

Insane....


Not really. Suburbans were nominated as the official vehicle of Texas due to sales. Read an article that more Suburbans were sold in Texas annually that the rest of the world combined. Go to the south, there are prolly more trucks there than out here. Every good redneck needs a pickup, it is in our blood. There are more Subarus out here though.

I agree on the rest though. If I need a truck, does it make sense for me to have a car and a truck? Being self reliant with a truck is a great thing. Tow what I want, go to hardware store and purchase what I want, go pick up crashed riders. Lets see a dorky Prius carry plywood (or a twin mattress).
I agree, the SUV's in the Southern states are popular. I'll admit that in Oklahoma and Texas, they have tons of trucks. Albeit 2X4's, whereas States like Colorado, tend to run higher in 4X4 sales.

Hey if you want a smokin deal on a 4X4, and have the time to go to say Texas or other Southern state, they give serious discounts on 4X4's. I saw an ad for a Dodge dealer in Amarillo selling freakin Cummins 3/4 ton 4X4's for around $25k!!! NEW!! Good luck getting that here.

I think having a car and truck is cool. Gives you the best of both worlds when you need them. However, if I had to have just ONE vehicle. Truck all the way and every time...

[Speedwagon]

Yeah ... completely makes my day :)

I don't even have words for how ridiculous I think some of your points are. An SUV can't get around in snow when a pickup can? You do realize they are made on the same frame, right? Difference between a Tahoe and Silverado? Mechanically, they are identical, except the Silverado is lighter in the ass end.

But whatever, I guess everything in life is just opinion to you. The words need and fact don't seem to be in your vocabulary.

[Speedwagon]

Not if you really tow or move stuff.

Most auto rental agencies rent trucks that don't have tow hitches. Is it worth the time to go to Avis, rent a truck for $50 per day (in town), go run your errands, renturn said vehicle? Not in my book. I sold my truck and got a car (first time in 7 years I didn't have a pickup) and within a month realized how much I couldn't do that I normally do.

But if you move and tow stuff, you aren't most of the people that drive these SUVs and pickups in the city. How many soccer moms do you see in a Tahoe, Expedition, Suburban, Excursion, Land Cruiser, Armada, and so forth? I'd say it is statistically impossible that most of them are moving and towing things with those vehicles. Unless you count 2.5 kids and 10 bags of groceries.

But again, you can drive whatever you want. I don't begrudge anyone for driving what they want to. Just don't tell me you drive that Tahoe 4x4 because you need its 4x4 or space, when all you do is move 2 kids around and run to King Soopers. Be honest about it, and it's all good. And by you, I mean in the general sense, not you specifically.

[The Black Knight]

I don't even have words for how ridiculous I think some of your points are. An SUV can't get around in snow when a pickup can? You do realize they are made on the same frame, right? Difference between a Tahoe and Silverado? Mechanically, they are identical, except the Silverado is lighter in the ass end.

But whatever, I guess everything in life is just opinion to you. The words need and fact don't seem to be in your vocabulary.

Yeah they "MAY" be on the same frame, but suspension is completely different. You do realize that a F150 and Expedition have completely different suspension right??

While an Expedition may be the SUV equivalent to the F150 it's not in the running gear. Expeditions have both front and rear A-arm design. F150's are solid axle(which provide a stiffer, beefier and taller ride). Tahoe and Silverado I'm not completely sure of, though I would venture to say it's somewhat similar to Ford's F150 and Expedition. SUV's while being 4X4 aren't made to the same standards as their truck equivalents are.

The words "need" and "fact" are in my vocabulary. What I saw during those snow storms were only trucks and/or "LIFTED" SUV's running around. Anything else that was either SUV factory height or smaller SUV's were stuck along with the cars. I'm not making this stuff up and don't come of as I'm just throwing this out there just to argue. You weren't there but I was. I saw what the storms did in my neighborhood. So don't give me your crap that 4X4's weren't needed and that little cars and SUV's were driving i those storms.

And you have no idea how ridiculous and irrelevent I think your points are. See quid pro quo :)

[Speedwagon]

Yeah they "MAY" be on the same frame, but suspension is completely different. You do realize that a F150 and Expedition have completely different suspension right??

While an Expedition may be the SUV equivalent to the F150 it's not in the running gear. Expeditions have both front and rear A-arm design. F150's are solid axle(which provide a stiffer, beefier and taller ride). Tahoe and Silverado I'm not completely sure of, though I would venture to say it's somewhat similar to Ford's F150 and Expedition. SUV's while being 4X4 aren't made to the same standards as their truck equivalents are.

The words "need" and "fact" are in my vocabulary. What I saw during those snow storms were only trucks and/or "LIFTED" SUV's running around. Anything else that was either SUV factory height or smaller SUV's were stuck along with the cars. I'm not making this stuff up and don't come of as I'm just throwing this out there just to argue. You weren't there but I was. I saw what the storms did in my neighborhood. So don't give me your crap that 4X4's weren't needed and that little cars and SUV's were driving i those storms.

And you have no idea how ridiculous and irrelevent I think your points are. See quid pro quo :)

F-150s are not solid axle vehicles. They are solid rear axle vehicles. They have never had a solid front axle. The closest the F-150 ever came to that, was the days of the TTB fronts. I was not aware that Ford dropped the solid rear in the SUVs, but that doesn't mean it changes the ride height any. What exactly do you mean, when you say they aren't made to the same standards? They use the same drivetrain, yes? Are you saying they aren't the same standards, simply because of their suspension and nothing more?

I never said who was, or wasn't, driving in any storms. But trying to pawn off that you need a vehicle, for one storm every few years, is ridiculous. If you want a vehicle for such situations, fine. I have no problem with that. But saying you need it? What basis do you have for saying you absolutely need a tall pickup for that one situation? That's the equivalent of me saying I need a Corvette, just incase I need to get away from some baddies. The simple reality is I don't, but in this country, I have the right to want and buy a Corvette. It doesn't mean I need it.

Realistically, we all need some form of transportation to make it work in this world. We all know Denver is lacking on the public transit side of things. If you do construction on the side(or whatever), you have every right to say you need a pickup. If you haul lumber one day in the summer for a project you are working on this year, be realistic. You probably don't need a truck. You can spend $40 and rent one for a day. Enterprise even advertises using their trucks for hauling your stuff.

I'm not debating what you should or shouldn't buy. I'm just saying be honest about the reasons you drive it. I don't need my AWD Subaru, but I like having it. I don't need my 4x4 Ranger, but I like having it. All my vehicles were bought because I wanted them, not because I needed that type of vehicle. I could get by fine in a FWD Cavalier, but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

[The Black Knight]

F-150s are not solid axle vehicles. They are solid rear axle vehicles. They have never had a solid front axle. The closest the F-150 ever came to that, was the days of the TTB fronts. I was not aware that Ford dropped the solid rear in the SUVs, but that doesn't mean it changes the ride height any. What exactly do you mean, when you say they aren't made to the same standards? They use the same drivetrain, yes? Are you saying they aren't the same standards, simply because of their suspension and nothing more?

I never said who was, or wasn't, driving in any storms. But trying to pawn off that you need a vehicle, for one storm every few years, is ridiculous. If you want a vehicle for such situations, fine. I have no problem with that. But saying you need it? What basis do you have for saying you absolutely need a tall pickup for that one situation? That's the equivalent of me saying I need a Corvette, just incase I need to get away from some baddies. The simple reality is I don't, but in this country, I have the right to want and buy a Corvette. It doesn't mean I need it.

Realistically, we all need some form of transportation to make it work in this world. We all know Denver is lacking on the public transit side of things. If you do construction on the side(or whatever), you have every right to say you need a pickup. If you haul lumber one day in the summer for a project you are working on this year, be realistic. You probably don't need a truck. You can spend $40 and rent one for a day. Enterprise even advertises using their trucks for hauling your stuff.

I'm not debating what you should or shouldn't buy. I'm just saying be honest about the reasons you drive it. I don't need my AWD Subaru, but I like having it. I don't need my 4x4 Ranger, but I like having it. All my vehicles were bought because I wanted them, not because I needed that type of vehicle. I could get by fine in a FWD Cavalier, but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.
I should of clarified as well, I didn't mean the F150 was completely front and rear solid axle. Only the rear, but it is a defining difference between it and an Expedition. And I do believe that it does change the ride height. Most Expeditions(at least to me) aren't as tall as regular F150's and it's probably due to the front and rear independent's in the Expeditions.

When I say they aren't made to the same Standards, I was being rather General with my comparisons. Obviously just about anything Ford offers in their full size truck line, can be had on or in a SUV. Save for the fact that there is no 1 Ton Ford SUV equivalent. Excursions are only 3/4, they can be had with Powerstrokes but I think get different trans options in them. The trucks just sit way higher. Believe me, we've got a whole fleet of them at my work. And the 1 Ton Fords need nerf bars for everyone to get in, including myself and I stand almost 6'2" tall. Never had a problem getting into a Expedition or Explorer(Ranger based).

However, the same cannot be said for GM. As far as I know you can't get the Duramax(Diesel) and Allison transmission in a Tahoe or Yukon(Gas motors only) AS with Ford, so is the same with GM. There are no 1 ton SUV equivalents. So with that being said, you can't get anywhere near the truck options in the GM SUV's, hence no being built to the same standards.

Dodge, here's a no brainer. If it's not a 3/4 or 1 ton RAM, you can't get a Cummins with the AISIN/Orion transmission in it. Dodge doesn't even make a SUV equivalent to the RAM. Durango is your best bet(and it's based on a Dakota). Again it's blatantly obvious with Dodge that you can't get anything close to their full size truck line in a SUV. So they still aren't built to the same standards.

Also I'm not pawning anything off. Where I live in Stetson Hills we get pounded with snow every winter. The rule of thumb for my neighborhood is we get usually half of what Black Forest gets. And Black Forest gets their butts handed to them all the time by snow storms. If they get 18 to 20in of snow, we'll get around 10 to 12in. Last Winter wasn't overly bad, but the snows we did get in my neck of the woods were substantial.

Not to mention I'm on a ridge and get alot of wind driven snow. It's not un-common to see 2 or 3 foot drifts along Stetson Hills and Woodman. Falcon even gets bad snows and they are just a mere 9 miles to my East.

If you were to drive down my street, every house has at least one big truck sitting in the driveway. Why?? because we need them come Winter. It ain't about driving a large truck to inflate an ego. It's about having something that doesn't get stuck in the snow. It's about having a truck that can handle my 2200lb in bed camper. May only camp a few times a year but it's there for when I need it.

Hardly think Enterprise would be down for me taking one of their trucks, smashing it to the ground with my camper and then driving all over the mountains with it.

Yeah I can justify it, I use the hell out of my truck. For you a Cavalier might be all you need. For me, not even a Ranger can make things happen. I've seen the smaller trucks have a hard time in the snow if they don't keep moving. But for you a Subi and a Ranger get it done. For me, it's a 3/4 ton truck.

[OUTLAWD]

The parts for hybrids are getting harder for the makers to find too. Stop raping the earth hippys!!



yay!

Alright, to be honest I skipped over most of this thread...because if you like trucks, no one can convince you to not drive a truck, and if you like little fag cars, no one will be able to sell you a truck...and saturns come under the little fag car classification

Electric vehicles are not the answer to anything because of raw materials...as DOC stated, insteaded of raping the earth for oil, we will end up raping the earth for materials for batteries, not to mention the energy necessary to create the batteries, and the hazardous byproducts from the manufacturing process

As far as the HHO goes, its relatively easy to trick the O2 sensor on a gas FI engine, it will read lean because of the excess O2, and try to add fuel, but its pretty easy to manipulate the voltage signals...On some diesel engine testing I conducted, the HHO contraption actually increased fuel consumption substantially, so I still say its a joke.

When it comes to the world's energy problems, we need to focus on developing countries, honestly...increasing your vehicle's efficiency by a few percent, if you are lucky, with battery power, or HHO or whatever, really pales in comparison to doubling the efficiency of say a 3rd world country cookstove, or a 2-stroke rickshaw...so if you buy a hybrid and think you are saving the world...wake up you silly hippy and stop pissing in the wind


I could drive my 71 dodge dart and rebuild the engine every year, and it would still cost less to operate that a prius...

I own a jeep, that gets a terrible 19 mpg highway, but i hardly ever drive it...i take it to the mountains and use it to tow the bikes to the track...if I am in town, I am most likely on my bicycle

This is the stuff that I currently do...alternative energy, of all forms, but mainly biofuel production, sustainability, emissions and health effects. so if anyone ever wants to have a serious chat, hit me up...silly hippys need not apply

[Speedwagon]

I should of clarified as well, I didn't mean the F150 was completely front and rear solid axle. Only the rear, but it is a defining difference between it and an Expedition. And I do believe that it does change the ride height. Most Expeditions(at least to me) aren't as tall as regular F150's and it's probably due to the front and rear independent's in the Expeditions.

...

Yeah I can justify it, I use the hell out of my truck. For you a Cavalier might be all you need. For me, not even a Ranger can make things happen. I've seen the smaller trucks have a hard time in the snow if they don't keep moving. But for you a Subi and a Ranger get it done. For me, it's a 3/4 ton truck.

I understand what you are saying, but I wasn't using you in the specific sense for most of my arguments. We weren't talking about your specific 3/4 ton truck, we were talking about F-150s and general SUVs. You, as in the general populace, does not have a need for the full size trucks and SUVs that they like to drive. Obviously, you specifically have that need with, for example, your camper. An in bed camper is no where near the same situation as what I stated in my arguments. Plus, 3/4 and 1 ton trucks are no where near the same thing as their 1/2 ton counterparts. But again, most people don't have that need. They simply want, and pawn it off as need.

[Speedwagon]

yay!

Alright, to be honest I skipped over most of this thread...because if you like trucks, no one can convince you to not drive a truck, and if you like little fag cars, no one will be able to sell you a truck...and saturns come under the little fag car classification

Electric vehicles are not the answer to anything because of raw materials...as DOC stated, insteaded of raping the earth for oil, we will end up raping the earth for materials for batteries, not to mention the energy necessary to create the batteries, and the hazardous byproducts from the manufacturing process

As far as the HHO goes, its relatively easy to trick the O2 sensor on a gas FI engine, it will read lean because of the excess O2, and try to add fuel, but its pretty easy to manipulate the voltage signals...On some diesel engine testing I conducted, the HHO contraption actually increased fuel consumption substantially, so I still say its a joke.

When it comes to the world's energy problems, we need to focus on developing countries, honestly...increasing your vehicle's efficiency by a few percent, if you are lucky, with battery power, or HHO or whatever, really pales in comparison to doubling the efficiency of say a 3rd world country cookstove, or a 2-stroke rickshaw...so if you buy a hybrid and think you are saving the world...wake up you silly hippy and stop pissing in the wind


I could drive my 71 dodge dart and rebuild the engine every year, and it would still cost less to operate that a prius...

I own a jeep, that gets a terrible 19 mpg highway, but i hardly ever drive it...i take it to the mountains and use it to tow the bikes to the track...if I am in town, I am most likely on my bicycle

This is the stuff that I currently do...alternative energy, of all forms, but mainly biofuel production, sustainability, emissions and health effects. so if anyone ever wants to have a serious chat, hit me up...silly hippys need not apply

I think most reasonable people know that hybrids and battery operated electric cars are not the answer. But what they are, is a step towards progressing technology in the (hopefully) right direction, to something that is more sustainable and environmentally friendly. As each company competes to outsell the next guy in hybrid cars, each company competes to improve the technology that makes that car more efficient. I don't think you'll find any normal person that think battery technology needs a huge step forward right now. Our electronics tech has far exceeded what our batteries are capable of.

And I don't think anyone could argue against the fact that we should be getting more energy independent. We need to stop feeding money to the people that hate us in the big desert over yonder.

[mathman1000]

Funny, if you drive a work truck everyday and use it GREAT, you don't need to argue your point any more. The "attack", as you see it, wasn't aimed at you. It was aimed at the other 97% of the population who use these vehicles as commuters because once a year they throw something in the back. The argument about the storms two years ago and the only people that could get around were the "BIG Boys", is ridiculous. Ya know what? If it's that bad maybe more over weight and unhealthy Americans could get out and walk to the store.

These comments were never about taking away the rights of people to do what they want, that’s what makes this country so great, you have the right to be a dumbass if you want. You can drive a Hummer down to the store to buy milk, you can drive your Tahoe from the suburbs commuting everyday, you can eat at McDonald’s everyday and weight double your correct body weight, and it’s all about choices. Just don't start complaining when gas hits $4+ again and everyone is stuck with these vehicles. Oh, and the comparison of the cost to operate a Hummer versus a Prius? Who cares, no is arguing for driving Prius’s…….

Again this all comes down to opinion; and I see it as arrogant and ignorant. I don't drive a hybrid either; they don't make sense, and NO ONE IN THE FORUM HAS ARGUED FOR THEM, DUH, READ THE POSTS.

One more comment about the “name calling”; are we seriously using terms like “fag car” , “stupid hippies”, and shit like that? Really? We can’t have this conversation without name calling? So, should we start throwing out other stereotypes too? How about “stupid redneck”, how about “little dick stupid homophobic redneck”?

Has anyone notice that this whole conversation is a direct reflection of the divisiveness that we feel everyday in this country? Just an observation.........

[chanke4252]

Screw what you all say. I've been driving a my Vue for almost two years. Sucks I have the base model but mine has taken a beating and does great on gas. Not a single problem yet. I plan to drive this thing to the dirt!

the vue w/ the honda motor?

[dirkterrell]

One more comment about the “name calling”; are we seriously using terms like “fag car” , “stupid hippies”, and shit like that? Really? We can’t have this conversation without name calling?


You mean like the following?


...supply the American fueled greed for "Bigger is Better" (aka an insecurity problem/little dick syndrome)





These comments were never about taking away the rights of people to do what they want, that’s what makes this country so great, you have the right to be a dumbass if you want.


And this little gem betrays both your ignorance and your arrogance:


It's stupid vehicles like the Toyota Sequoia, Chevy Tahoe/Suburban, Dodge Durango, Ford Excursion, Hummers, blah blah blah. Useless vehicles.


My Expedition is pretty damned useful and fits my needs perfectly. Sorry it doesn't fit your pompous view of what I need to be driving.

Dirk

[chanke4252]

I think it comes down to what you legitimately use. Yes, there are people who actually use expeditions or other SUV's rather than just selfishly using them as grocery getters or because they "needed" a bigger car for their single child. The problem isn't the people who actually use the cars, it's those who drive them but don't use them at all (most people w/ SUV's).

A lot of it likely has to do w/ the fact that some people feel like they NEED 4wd to get around, still buying into all the hype and advertising from the SUV rush in the 90's. However, a lot of these same people totally neglect tires and put total trash on their 4wd vehicles. I was driving around jeeps and trucks that got stuck in my snow in my little fwd honda accord when we got that 30" of snow a couple of years back. It was pretty funny. I mean ground clearance is cool and all, but it doesn't matter much when you don't have the grip to take advantage of it.

I'm not at all saying that it should be illegal or that we should force these people to drive something else, but what I am doing is calling them morons and will continue to do so for as long as they continue w/ this sort of gluttunous, mindless douchebaggery that affects everyone else so negatively, especially those who legitimately need these sort of vehicles.

Would be nice if we had more diesel options in the states. However, I won't say that hybrids are a bad thing entirely as we definitely needed some sort of segway from fossil fuel to electric, and more motivation to improve on the dated battery technology we've been using thus far.

[dirkterrell]

The problem isn't the people who actually use the cars, it's those who drive them but don't use them at all (most people w/ SUV's).


Got anything quantifiable to back that up?

Dirk

[chanke4252]

To back which up? the fact that it's a problem, or that most people who drive them don't use them?

Either way my answer is yes, common sense and my eyeballs (quantified by 2).

[MileHighColt]

[/font][/color]
My Expedition is pretty damned useful and fits my needs perfectly. Sorry it doesn't fit your pompous view of what I need to be driving.


My Expedition suits our needs as well. I take the FJR to work damn near every day. The Expedition is for hauling my family and all of our gear up to Keystone or Breck to get in some snowboarding without having to worry about the weather. I actually KNOW HOW to drive my Expedition to keep from getting stuck. I had no problems at all 2 years ago when the blizzard hit. Myself and a couple of neighbors were the ones out making tracks so others could get out to the main roads. Our Accord, at the time, was stuck in the entrance to our neighborhood, so I had to use the Expedition to go pull it out. We pulled several neighbors out of the entrance to the neighborhood because the plow trucks buried it and the cars couldn't make it through. I love my Expedition. I love my FJR even more. :rock:

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I have a truck that get lousy mileage, and don't use it as a work truck most of the time. There are occasions I DO use it, like next weekend when I will bring my bike back from ID. Or when I used to go up to Estes and drive in the snow because I enjoyed it. Or when I was still able to get around in those bad x-mas storms we had a few years ago where all the dweebs in their little Subaru's all got stuck because of the lack of a real 4x4 system and clearance. So, yeah, driving a 1,200mi road trip once a month, and sometimes twice a month to see my daughter makes me want to trade it in, but guess what? Financially, I can't, it wouldn't be worth it, so I'm stuck with it. Could I have gotten a car and a small trailer and done almost the same thing? Yeah, probably, except for getting around in the snow. Will I next time? Maybe, maybe not, but that's my call, not anyone else's, and those that feel superior to us with trucks because they drive a Prius or something can blow us all.

[chanke4252]

I'm telling you, tires > car. The reason people get stuck is because they concentrate on what drive wheels are available and totally neglect the few square inches of rubber actually connecting them to the road. I literally plow snow in my subaru up to the grille (extremely rare and I've only ever had to do this on nearly untouched roads). Even in my accord I could drive even when I ran out of clearance and the snow was up to the doors. I drove around a number of stuck jeeps, subarus, trucks in that little car a couple of years ago when we got that big storm. I definitely had more "go" in the snow w/ my little accord w/ snows than I ever did w/ my jeeps or 4runners w/ decent AT's. You can put shitty or inappropriate tires on any car and it'll suck in the snow, regardless of drive wheels.

In terms of getting around and the actual conditions, the winters used to be way worse in icy old Indiana (where I'm from) than I've ever seen in CO. There really is no reason to get stuck here given the ridiculous abundance of plows. I used to live in the mountains full time and as long as you have the right tires (and a reliable car), you can pretty much get anywhere regardless of car (also assuming you know how to drive in the snow).

The biggest problem out here is the people not at all prepared for winter conditions (both in terms of equipment, and mentality) who still insist on driving in them. I've been stuck two times, ever, and that was always because of traffic getting stuck in front of me blocking the road because of people poorly prepared for the weather (including big SUV's). Not much you can do about that unless you get a monster truck.

People concentrate too much on drive wheels and totally neglect those few square inches of rubber actually connecting them to the road. Nevermind the whole stopping and turning issue that 4wd doesn't help. I mean I guess you can ignore the tire issue and pump hundreds of dollars in gas a year into a big car unnecessarily (more than you would spend on tires) and still be worse off in the end, but that doesn't seem smart to me.

[DavidofColorado]

This is the stuff that I currently do...alternative energy, of all forms, but mainly biofuel production, sustainability, emissions and health effects. so if anyone ever wants to have a serious chat, hit me up...silly hippys need not apply
I'm very interested in all of that. I would like to make a car that runs on water or a boat hauler that runs off McDonald's waste. Or less. But the only bike you normally catch me on has a motor in it.

[chanke4252]

I'm very interested in all of that. I would like to make a car that runs on water or a boat hauler that runs off McDonald's waste. Or less. But the only bike you normally catch me on has a motor in it.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb228/chanke4252/funny_pictures_fat_mcdonalds_chicks.jpg

[DavidofColorado]

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb228/chanke4252/funny_pictures_fat_mcdonalds_chicks.jpg
Why do you even have a picture like that lying around? Are you a chubby chaser?
It looks like they are naked but I think they are smuggling VW bugs.

[dirkterrell]

To back which up? the fact that it's a problem, or that most people who drive them don't use them?

Either way my answer is yes, common sense and my eyeballs (quantified by 2).

That's what I figured, a self-appointed expert who knows what's best for people he doesn't even know.

Dirk

[The Black Knight]

That's what I figured, a self-appointed expert who knows what's best for people he doesn't even know.

Dirk
Hey isn't that the definition of a Politician???

HAHA!! :lol:

[dirkterrell]

Hey isn't that the definition of a Politician???


Well, it certainly seems to be a very common trait among them. :)

Dirk

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I'm telling you, tires > car. The reason people get stuck is because they concentrate on what drive wheels are available and totally neglect the few square inches of rubber actually connecting them to the road. I literally plow snow in my subaru up to the grille (extremely rare and I've only ever had to do this on nearly untouched roads). Even in my accord I could drive even when I ran out of clearance and the snow was up to the doors. I drove around a number of stuck jeeps, subarus, trucks in that little car a couple of years ago when we got that big storm. I definitely had more "go" in the snow w/ my little accord w/ snows than I ever did w/ my jeeps or 4runners w/ decent AT's. You can put shitty or inappropriate tires on any car and it'll suck in the snow, regardless of drive wheels.

In terms of getting around and the actual conditions, the winters used to be way worse in icy old Indiana (where I'm from) than I've ever seen in CO. There really is no reason to get stuck here given the ridiculous abundance of plows. I used to live in the mountains full time and as long as you have the right tires (and a reliable car), you can pretty much get anywhere regardless of car (also assuming you know how to drive in the snow).

The biggest problem out here is the people not at all prepared for winter conditions (both in terms of equipment, and mentality) who still insist on driving in them. I've been stuck two times, ever, and that was always because of traffic getting stuck in front of me blocking the road because of people poorly prepared for the weather (including big SUV's). Not much you can do about that unless you get a monster truck.

People concentrate too much on drive wheels and totally neglect those few square inches of rubber actually connecting them to the road. Nevermind the whole stopping and turning issue that 4wd doesn't help. I mean I guess you can ignore the tire issue and pump hundreds of dollars in gas a year into a big car unnecessarily (more than you would spend on tires) and still be worse off in the end, but that doesn't seem smart to me.
Funny, I drove right on past plenty of Subies and Accords that x-mas when the snow was far too deep for them. They all stayed there for about a week until the snow melted. Snow tires don't help when you're high-centered. I didn't have any problems though......

[Captain Obvious]

Funny, I drove right on past plenty of Subies and Accords that x-mas when the snow was far too deep for them. They all stayed there for about a week until the snow melted. Snow tires don't help when you're high-centered. I didn't have any problems though......

And when my 4x2 truck was stuck in the snow, it was an Armada 4x4 that pulled me out. The earth-saving Subies were no were too be found. Glad I wasn't relying on them to save me.

[chanke4252]

Funny, I drove right on past plenty of Subies and Accords that x-mas when the snow was far too deep for them. They all stayed there for about a week until the snow melted. Snow tires don't help when you're high-centered. I didn't have any problems though......

The fact is that most people w/ the clearance to avoid getting hung up like that don't have the tires to take advantage of the clearance. A lot of this likely has to do with the fact that most people don't actually need the clearance and as such don't want to put up with the drawbacks of some big gnarly knobbies or other aggressive tire. If you think you need the clearance, you better have the traction. Most people don't. If you actually use the clearance, and have the traction, kudos.


And when my 4x2 truck was stuck in the snow, it was an Armada 4x4 that pulled me out. The earth-saving Subies were no were too be found. Glad I wasn't relying on them to save me.

Go take a look at the tires on most of the subarus (or any car). The oe tires on most subarus (and most cars in general) are absolutely terrible. Most people seem neglect them or just get a set of crappos when it's time to replace them and think it's ok. I personally wouldn't rely on anyone, in any type of vehicle, to save me because most people do this out here it seems (at least those in Denver, boulder and the like...different story up top). Will a heavy suv/truck and real 4wd w/ snows pull other vehicles out of snow better? Absolutely, but again, most people w/ these cars neglect the tires so the rest doesn't matter all that much.


That's what I figured, a self-appointed expert who knows what's best for people he doesn't even know.

Dirk

Thanks

Never claimed to be an expert. I mean I suppose I could pull sales figures for individual trucks and suv's year to year, but that's an awful lot of time to waste to point out a well publicized trend for the sake of humoring some guy on the intarweb. Especially since the guy has arbitrarily decided that he is exempt from having to provide such "quantifiable" proof to back up his own statements (yet he will continue to demand it of others). Not everything needs to be represented by a bar graph or pie chart and hard data, we're not drafting legislation here.

Denying that there are huge numbers of people who still drive SUV's and trucks needlessly (maybe you, given that you are getting awfully defensive about it) is like denying the boom in SUV sales a few years ago, that is unless you are claiming that nearly everyone suddenly and drastically altered their lifestyles and immediately needed SUV's and trucks. Yes, buying trends are moving away from SUV/trucks these days (reflected in various market trends, not just the hard sales numbers), more aggressively when gas prices were way high, but that says something about the "need" there is for the SUV's in most (not all) peoples' daily lives (ie. not much of one if a dollar/gallon or so will motivate people to let them go).

Look at texas and the retarded amount of pickups down there, do you really think all of those people need trucks? Obviously that's an extreme, but it represents the same mentality I am talking about. It's a fashion accessory for most people, and it represents little more than the height of american glut and stupidity. The Hummer brand is an ideal representation of this mentality given the target demographic, among other things.

I'm just as guilty as the next guy and I drove SUVs for years. At this point, however, there really isn't much excuse imo as people pretty much know the result of careless decisions like this on a large scale. If I could drive any car right now and justification didn't matter to me, I would have a rubicon or a new tacoma.

[longrider]

I have found one thing funny with all these snow claims - they can all be 100% true depending on the snow. If you have champagne powder the Subaru will have no problem pushing snow up to its grill out of the way. However if you have Sierra Cement you better have enough ground clearance to get over it! I have a F250 SD and live out in the boonies where the residential streets get plowed somewhere from 1 to 3 days after the storm. Several times I have come home and all the cars and most of the SUVs are at the entrance to the neighborhood and only the trucks are making at all the way home.

I admit I only truly need the truck maybe 10% of the time but since the truck gets less than 10k miles a year (I ride the rest of teh time) there is no way I can justify owning a second car.

[The Black Knight]

being high centered has nothing to do with it. they will help regardless, and you missed the point that the tires are far more important than the car. Compound and tread do not simply cease to matter.

Obviously the more drive wheels you have the better off you are, and the better, more appropriate tires you have the better off you are. My only point is that tires are more important than drive wheels.



Go take a look at the tires on most of the subarus. Most people seem neglect them or just get a set of crappos and think it's ok. Part of my point is that people favor drive wheels over tires. I wouldn't rely on anyone, in any type of vehicle to save me because most people do this out here it seems.
Uhhh, yeah being high centered matters completely. If you can't get any of your tires to touch the ground(i.e. what happens when you get high centered) you're not going anywhere. I don't care how bad ass your tread, tires and you think you are. If you can't get the rubber down, you're just floating. So yeah, unless you want to dig yourself down to where you've got some traction, being high centered has EVERYTHING to do with it.

Come on man, I was born at night but not last night....

[chanke4252]

Uhhh, yeah being high centered matters completely. If you can't get any of your tires to touch the ground(i.e. what happens when you get high centered) you're not going anywhere. I don't care how bad ass your tread, tires and you think you are. If you can't get the rubber down, you're just floating. So yeah, unless you want to dig yourself down to where you've got some traction, being high centered has EVERYTHING to do with it.

Come on man, I was born at night but not last night....

And if you have the wrong tires then you're not getting through 4 inches of snow, regardless of how much clearance you have. Most people don't seem to even have the rubber necessary to take advantage of the significantly lower clearance of most cars, let alone a significantly higher SUV or truck.


I have found one thing funny with all these snow claims - they can all be 100% true depending on the snow. If you have champagne powder the Subaru will have no problem pushing snow up to its grill out of the way. However if you have Sierra Cement you better have enough ground clearance to get over it! I have a F250 SD and live out in the boonies where the residential streets get plowed somewhere from 1 to 3 days after the storm. Several times I have come home and all the cars and most of the SUVs are at the entrance to the neighborhood and only the trucks are making at all the way home.

I admit I only truly need the truck maybe 10% of the time but since the truck gets less than 10k miles a year (I ride the rest of teh time) there is no way I can justify owning a second car.

True. Good point.

Though, it's a little different for the common denverite who will realistically only find unplowed roads if they make an effort to do so. Pretty much all of the major arteries on the way up to any skiing destinations I can think of see plows before it even starts snowing. It's kind of annoying honestly because I really like driving in the snow. Every once in a while US40 will be a little caked and not immediately blitzkrieged by plows, but not often.

[rforsythe]

I live in Denver (urban, city environment) and my street doesn't get plowed unless there's 3 feet on it (and even then, it takes a few days). If I didn't own a truck I'd spend half my winter just digging a hole to drive some car out of. Donna had a Saturn, that's what we did (when I wasn't making "car access" with the truck). Those of us on the street with trucks also "plow" tracks for the rest of the folks without them. Of course I also haul stuff in my truck, tow stuff with my truck, help people like some of you with cars move their stuff, and burn less fuel than my gas counterparts of similar models while I happily let a bit of black smoke down the sidewalk (which is where it descends to, rather than rising up to eat ozone like a fat kid at a buffet). Of course newer diesels burn pretty clean, and I typically run a minor biodiesel blend, but that has no bearing on this...

I also commute to work in my beast of a truck, but I guess I should kill myself for doing that since it's not using it to 100% of its potential every time. Wait yes it is, since it scares morons in little green-mobiles out of the way who like to cut me off, sit in the left lane at 50mph, and chug their supersize-vanilla-double-pump-latte-with-sprinkles-and-whipped-cream while talking on their phones and trying (seemingly) to hit everything in sight. Hybrids and econo-shitboxes save the world FTW!

Oh and on-topic, no big love loss with Saturn for me. I got pretty tired of the monthly "hey the car's going back in for X to get fixed" thing my wife had going with her's. Since we got her a 4Runner, it gets oil changes (oh and I think a belt), only a little less mileage, and doesn't require a bad-weather escort.

[dirkterrell]

Never claimed to be an expert.


You sure seem to think you're knowledgeable on the topic of what other need to drive.



I mean I suppose I could pull sales figures for individual trucks and suv's year to year, but that's an awful lot of time to waste to point out a well publicized trend for the sake of humoring some guy on the intarweb.


You made the claim that "most" SUV drivers don't need them. I merely asked fro proof to back up that claim.



Especially since the guy has arbitrarily decided that he is exempt from having to provide such "quantifiable" proof to back up his own statements (yet he will continue to demand it of others).


Where did I make a factual claim?



Not everything needs to be represented by a bar graph or pie chart and hard data, we're not drafting legislation here.


Just because we're not "drafting legislation" doesn't mean that we don't need to verify publicly made claims.



Denying that there are huge numbers of people who still drive SUV's and trucks needlessly (maybe you, given that you are getting awfully defensive about it) is like denying the boom in SUV sales a few years ago,


I have seen sales figures. Sales of SUVs grew rapidly when they were introduced. Now, provide the same sort of data for what people "need" and I'll be the first to say that you are right.



that is unless you are claiming that nearly everyone suddenly and drastically altered their lifestyles and immediately needed SUV's and trucks.


Or maybe the SUV was developed because it provided a better solution to their driving needs?



Look at texas and the retarded amount of pickups down there, do you really think all of those people need trucks?


I wouldn't presume to know what those people need.



Obviously that's an extreme, but it represents the same mentality I am talking about. It's a fashion accessory for most people,


Any survey data to back up that claim?

Dirk

[chanke4252]

You sure seem to think you're knowledgeable on the topic of what other need to drive.


I'm not, nor was I ever claiming to have some advanced knowledge of the topic. Rather, I'm making a statement based on what I have observed and what is suggested by changing market trends, and peoples' abundant willingness to give up their SUV's when gas prices spike a little bit.

I suppose it really depends on your definition of "need" though, you seem to be using the term very loosely. If you think that driving to work, the grocery, and to drop the kids at school necessitates a large, inappropriately equipped vehicle that burns significantly more fuel than another vehicle that would do the job equally as well, or better than the larger vehicle, then that's fine. To me, that does not say "need".

Do they NEED all the ground clearance to do these tasks despite the fact that they don't have the tires necessary to take advantage of it? Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? Do they need to be able to seat 85 people when they rarely carry over 2 or 3 (including them)? Do they need to be able to tow heavier loads when they don't even have a hitch? Obviously there are people who do legitimately need them, but, again, being primarily a commuter that rarely carries more than 2 or 3 people does not really say "need" to me when talking about the typical SUV.

I'm not suggesting that everyone needs (in the most basic sense) to drive the absolute most efficient, boring car ever built that can get them where they need to go and do what they need to do, while completely giving up driving enjoyment. I believe that there is a balance to be struck. What I am suggesting is that people should think about what they really "need" versus what they "want" and be willing to at the very least make a compromise between the two for the sake of everyone else rather than just giving into "want, want, want, me, me, me" all of the time and becoming part of a much larger problem. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something.



You made the claim that "most" SUV drivers don't need them. I merely asked fro proof to back up that claim.


The proof is in front of your face. If you can't see it, you need glasses.



Where did I make a factual claim?


You didn't, you're just trying to play devil's advocate, which is obnoxious given that you obviously want to make some conflicting statement of your own (but likely won't). If you have something to say, just say it.



Just because we're not "drafting legislation" doesn't mean that we don't need to verify publicly made claims.


Because you do this? I don't buy it. I'm sorry, but that's way too much of a time commitment for me considering the source of the demand for hard verification. If you care so much, do it yourself. I have better things to do than scour the library and web for hard numbers regarding something that can be seen plainly as day for the sake of humoring some guy online who wants to play devil's advocate, especially when that guy is taking a sort of "You can't prove it? Then you're wrong!" approach. It's just not that important to me, sorry.



I have seen sales figures. Sales of SUVs grew rapidly when they were introduced. Now, provide the same sort of data for what people "need" and I'll be the first to say that you are right.


There were SUV's long before the huge boom in sales in the late 90's. They were not "new" by any means. The blazer has been made since '83, the Suburban since 1935 (yes, really). They simply became the "cool" sort of vehicle in the late 90's. We still have all of these "SUV's" out today that are about as capable as a honda civic in terms of the actual mechanicals offering very few of the benefits of SUV's/Trucks, but still having many of the drawbacks.



Or maybe the SUV was developed because it provided a better solution to their driving needs?


"Got anything quantifiable to back that up?"



I wouldn't presume to know what those people need.


Good to know. I'm presuming to know what the word "need" means, and what people typically do with their cars. I mean do I really have to account for the possibility that people lead double lives w/ their SUV's and head off to haul stuff around and carpool w/ 6+ people at night?



Any survey data to back up that claim?

Dirk

No, but you are free to perform surveys and do as much research on the topic as you want to your heart's content if you are for some reason unable to draw conclusions based on your own observations.

Anecdotal evidence is useful, as is individual experience, and not everything you say needs to be, or can be statistically analyzed. But, I think you know this already.

[Pandora-11]

Chanke...
I'm waiting for you to break out your name-calling on Dirk. Or is that something you save for women only, big man?

[chanke4252]

Chanke...
I'm waiting for you to break out your name-calling on Dirk. Or is that something you save for women only, big man?

No, I save it for people who can't disagree w/o acting like angry little children and acting bitter or condescending. If pretending it's a gender issue makes you feel better, then go right ahead. I think that dirk is likely more grown up than you are, even if I don't personally like his approach at the moment (I'm sure mine could show improvement as well). If you want to bicker, please PM me instead.

[dirkterrell]

You didn't, you're just trying to play devil's advocate, which is obnoxious given that you obviously want to make some conflicting statement of your own (but likely won't). If you have something to say, just say it.


No, I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm addressing the fact that you seem to think that you know what is best for other people and trying to pass this off as some sort of self-evident fact. I'm suggesting that you are making statistical statements ("most people...") and drawing conclusions that aren't based on any factual data that you can reference. You allusion to my reasons for driving an SUV give me at least one data point that you don't have the slightest clue about my situation.



Because you do this? I don't buy it. I'm sorry, but that's way too much of a time commitment for me considering the source of the demand for hard verification. If you care so much, do it yourself.


I'm not the one spouting facts and telling other people what to drive.



I have better things to do than scour the library and web for hard numbers


But plenty of time to spout off stereotypes and judge others...



regarding something that can be seen plainly as day for the sake of humoring some guy online who wants to play devil's advocate, especially when that guy is taking a sort of "You can't prove it? Then you're wrong!" approach. It's just not that important to me, sorry.


Where did I state that you were wrong? If you gave some sort of evidence to back up your claims, I might be able to do so.




"Got anything quantifiable to back that up?"


I wasn't stating a fact. I was asking you to consider a different possibility with just as much backing it up as your original assertion.



Good to know. I'm presuming to know what the word "need" means, and what people typically do with their cars. I mean do I really have to account for the possibility that people lead double lives w/ their SUV's and head off to haul stuff around and carpool w/ 6+ people at night?


Is there any possibility that they are doing things with their vehicles that you don't happen to see?



No, but you are free to perform surveys and do as much research on the topic as you want to your heart's content if you are for some reason unable to draw conclusions based on your own observations.


I've done scientific research long enough to know about the pitfalls of selection effects and jumping to conclusions.



However, my guess is that the reason you are going after me is because you have a truck and don't really need it or really use it.


No, I'm calling out sloppy thinking that ultimately leads to people using the power of government to control the lives of others because they happen to do things differently.

Dirk

[Pandora-11]

No, I save it for people who can't disagree w/o acting like angry little children and acting bitter or condescending. If pretending it's a gender issue makes you feel better, then go right ahead. I think that dirk is likely more grown up than you are, even if I don't personally like his approach at the moment (I'm sure mine could show improvement as well). If you want to bicker, please PM me instead.

Ha...just thought I'd interject myself into a discussion that was none of my business...kinda like the one where you interjected yourself into a conversation between myself and Trevor. http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Ps...I dont want any more PMs from you....but thanks. carry on.

[chanke4252]

No, I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm addressing the fact that you seem to think that you know what is best for other people and trying to pass this off as some sort of self-evident fact. I'm suggesting that you are making statistical statements ("most people...") and drawing conclusions that aren't based on any factual data that you can reference. You allusion to my reasons for driving an SUV give me at least one data point that you don't have the slightest clue about my situation.

I'm sorry, but you are absolutely playing devil's advocate. I didn't claim to know about your situation either. You may need a truck, great, that's fine. It really is your business. I'm not trying to change the world here, just have a conversation. Someone wants to agree or disagree? That's perfectly fine as well.




I'm not the one spouting facts and telling other people what to drive.

I'm not telling people what to drive. People can drive whatever they want. I am criticizing those who drive needlessly wasteful vehicles in a way that represents american excess and ignorance (or just not caring).



But plenty of time to spout off stereotypes and judge others...

What else am I going to do at work? If you want to present an alternate perspective, and I disagree, then I might feel more inclined to respond w/ some hard data. However, for the sake of humoring someone else who just wants to play devil's advocate, it seems kind of like a lot of effort for nothing.



Where did I state that you were wrong? If you gave some sort of evidence to back up your claims, I might be able to do so.

You didn't state anything. You did, however, (and not so discretely) imply it. I just wish you'd say what you are thinking rather than talking around it.



I wasn't stating a fact. I was asking you to consider a different possibility with just as much backing it up as your original assertion.

That's fine, I considered it, and it seems absurd to me personally. The reason it seems absurd is that this alternate possibility seems to assume a much more drastically changing list of "needs" in peoples' life in terms of transportation than seems realistic. That's just my opinion.



Is there any possibility that they are doing things with their vehicles that you don't happen to see?

Yes, absolutely. However, you can look at a vehicle and immediately know certain things about it. You can look at the tires and know that the clearance isn't utilized. You can look at the paint and know it isn't really used for offroad. You can look at the bed and see that it's not used for hauling. You can look at the hitch and tell if they tow things w/ the vehicle (both because of the presence and condition of the hitch). You can look at the TYPE of vehicle it is and know that it is a car posing as an SUV vs. actually an SUV or truck. The fuzzy part may be when you look at the occupants and only see 1, or 2, when they may pack it like a clown car later. Still, I consider the regularity in which I see these large vehicles with a single occupant important. Maybe you don't, and that's fine. But really, where is this secret carpooling taking place that I see it once in a blue moon at best?



I've done scientific research long enough to know about the pitfalls of selection effects and jumping to conclusions.

I'm not claiming to make any scientific statements here. Again, anecdotal evidence is useful, if not for research purposes.



No, I'm calling out sloppy thinking that ultimately leads to people using the power of government to control the lives of others because they happen to do things differently.

Dirk

I'm not the government. I also don't encourage politicians to use their personal opinions to form policy. I believe legislation SHOULD be based on research and hard numbers. Lacking that, I believe that nothing should be done. Again, I am NOT the government. I did dress up like Bill Clinton for halloween once though, does that count?

[chanke4252]

Ha...just thought I'd interject myself into a discussion that was none of my business...kinda like the one where you interjected yourself into a conversation between myself and Trevor. http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Ps...I dont want any more PMs from you....but thanks. carry on.

I'm not asking you not to interject, I'm asking you not to poo poo all over a thread because you're butt hurt. give it up already.

[DavidofColorado]

Dirk for President and Ralph for Vice President. Or the other way around its all good we can't loose.

[DavidofColorado]

I'm not asking you not to interject, I'm asking you not to poo poo all over a thread because you're butt hurt. give it up already.

Your butt hurt. Hell hast no furry like a woman scorn by thread jackers. What's your excuse?

[chanke4252]

Your butt hurt. Hell hast no furry like a woman scorn by thread jackers. What's your excuse?

My excuse is that I don't like people who don't know how to disagree civilly. Either that, or sexual inadequacy.

[Tipys]

Your butt hurt. Hell hast no furry like a woman scorn by thread jackers. What's your excuse?


David there was no thread jacking. She is just being her whinny self. and it is always about her.

Honestly I love seeing my name come up in alot of here post lately. (means I made in impact)

[Zach929rr]

Sweet mother of shut the fuck up.

[chanke4252]

such language!

[Zach929rr]

Pontiac sucks. Ford sucks. Chevy sucks. Trucks suck. Cars suck. You suck.

[sugarrey]

This is the product of what happens when people start putting the bikes away for the winter......sadness all around

[whitebrad]

simoncelly completely rips on his 250.... just guessin there aren't a lot of riders that could keep up with him, even on bigger bikes... (not talkin about pros, just us mere mortals...)

saturn

[dirkterrell]

I'm sorry, but you are absolutely playing devil's advocate. I didn't claim to know about your situation either.


Then why did you say this:


However, my guess is that the reason you are going after me is because you have a truck and don't really need it or really use it.



I'm not telling people what to drive. People can drive whatever they want. I am criticizing those who drive needlessly wasteful vehicles in a way that represents american excess and ignorance (or just not caring).


And I am pointing out the possibility that the ignorance on display might be your own.



What else am I going to do at work? If you want to present an alternate perspective, and I disagree, then I might feel more inclined to respond w/ some hard data. However, for the sake of humoring someone else who just wants to play devil's advocate, it seems kind of like a lot of effort for nothing.


Again, you made the claim about what people needed. You should expect to be called out to support it. That's the way constructive discourse takes place.



You didn't state anything. You did, however, (and not so discretely) imply it. I just wish you'd say what you are thinking rather than talking around it.


I am thinking "How does chanke4252 draw the conclusions he does about what other people need in a vehicle when he has no data to support them other than what he happens to see driving to work which is a severely limited way to gather data." Like I said, I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea that you're right. But so far you have failed miserably to support your position with anything more than your opinion.



actually an SUV or truck. The fuzzy part may be when you look at the occupants and only see 1, or 2, when they may pack it like a clown car later. Still, I consider the regularity in which I see these large vehicles with a single occupant important. Maybe you don't, and that's fine. But really, where is this secret carpooling taking place that I see it once in a blue moon at best?


Ahh, yes, the fuzzy part. Maybe people want (or can only afford) a single vehicle that can haul 5 or 6 people around plus their camping gear comfortably, carry home some lumber from Lowes, carry all of their racing gear and pull a trailer to the races? Maybe you only see those people when they need to get to work and are by themselves?



I'm not claiming to make any scientific statements here. Again, anecdotal evidence is useful, if not for research purposes.


Anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable.



I'm not the government. I also don't encourage politicians to use their personal opinions to form policy. I believe legislation SHOULD be based on research and hard numbers. Lacking that, I believe that nothing should be done.

Legislation often comes about because large numbers of citizens "know" something to be true, even though there is no evidence to support it. I encourage people to think carefully about their assumptions.

Dirk

[rforsythe]

Pontiac sucks. Ford sucks. Chevy sucks. Trucks suck. Cars suck. You suck.

But we ALL scream for ice cream.


This is the product of what happens when people start putting the bikes away for the winter......sadness all around

Fuck that, my riding season is just getting warmed up!

[whitebrad]

casey ffkin stoner is riding like a madman! is that a saturn he's on?

[DavidofColorado]

My excuse is that I don't like people who don't know how to disagree civilly. Either that, or sexual inadequacy.

That's a very Freudian thing to say. Do you every get to chapter 2 in his book? It talks about the id, ego and super ego? I liked the Edipus complex myself because its seriously f*d up thing to think about.

There is just something that are annoying to hear over and over again. Someone is going to be wrong and nobody wants to be him/her. But telling someone that they can't drive what they want because its obvious that they shouldn't is annoying. Just as an example though I'm talking about anyone in particular though. If I ever was that person I would google the state or federal law that says people can't drive a truck because its killing the inzone layer. Then I would cite it and end the augument once and for all. But that's just me. I hope I would take a hint long before that and stop being that guy just because I'm wrong and I would want to cut my losses.
Then I would take and inventory of my life and see when somebody died and made me ruler of the moral compass of transportation. If I didn't recall I would stop acting like I'm hot shit on a silver platter quick. Just because that's me again.

[DavidofColorado]

Pontiac sucks. Ford sucks. Chevy sucks. Trucks suck. Cars suck. You suck.
v6's rock!!

[DavidofColorado]

David there was no thread jacking. She is just being her whinny self. and it is always about her.

Honestly I love seeing my name come up in alot of here post lately. (means I made in impact)
I'm was talking about him not you. We all know your the final word on most things.

[Zach929rr]

v6's rock!!

whachu know bout 6 cylinders of SOHC fury?!

[DavidofColorado]

whachu know bout 6 cylinders of SOHC fury?!
I know for a fact that they can pass a Saturn pulling a trailer. :crazy:

[chanke4252]

Then why did you say this:

Note the words "my guess". I never claimed to know, it just seems likely to ME given your fervor.



And I am pointing out the possibility that the ignorance on display might be your own.

Thanks for that, that's great.



Again, you made the claim about what people needed. You should expect to be called out to support it. That's the way constructive discourse takes place.

I made a claim about something that people didn't need. I explained the basis for my statements. Again, anecdotal evidence and individual experience is not useless, but well known fact was another source of support, which you seem to ignore or disregard w/ off the wall "maybe" scenarios. I'm sure everything you think and every opinion you have is filtered through a team of scientists who promptly conclude it's validity/invalidity. The implication that you do not base your opinions on personal experience is retarded.

Besides, this is not constructive discourse. I know why I believe the things I believe. If you want to challenge that, then do it, but this whole "talking around the issue" thing you're doing is kind of dumb. If you want to say something, then just say it, or stop wasting my time.



I am thinking "How does chanke4252 draw the conclusions he does about what other people need in a vehicle when he has no data to support them other than what he happens to see driving to work which is a severely limited way to gather data." Like I said, I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea that you're right. But so far you have failed miserably to support your position with anything more than your opinion.

What am I defending it from? So far all I've gotten from you is a bunch of maybes and a challenge that I really see no point in at the moment. If you want something more then, again, stop talking around the issue.



Ahh, yes, the fuzzy part. Maybe people want (or can only afford) a single vehicle that can haul 5 or 6 people around plus their camping gear comfortably, carry home some lumber from Lowes, carry all of their racing gear and pull a trailer to the races? Maybe you only see those people when they need to get to work and are by themselves?

Lot's of maybe's. Seriously though man, that's seems absurdly unlikely. How are all of the people w/ suv's and no hitch going to pull a trailer? Is the guy in the escalade or H2 really so financially limited that he can't afford another vehicle? I'm pretty sure that I see people who are not only on their way to work, unless they're invisible when they're not going to work. Wait, are they invisible? Again, there is a LOT you can tell about what a car is used for simply by looking at it.

Are there people who can't afford a second vehicle? Yes, my girlfriend, for instance, drives an inexpensive jimmy because she can't afford something else since she had to foreclose and her credit is bunk, but also because she just doesn't think about it that much.

But really, the odd ones out don't really represent the whole. Yes, there's probably a guy so fat that he can't fit in any other car but an H2, so there's no choice, but that doesn't say much about the god knows how many other people who drive them for less than practical reasons.



Anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable.

Again, we're not doing a research study here man, let it go.



Legislation often comes about because large numbers of citizens "know" something to be true, even though there is no evidence to support it. I encourage people to think carefully about their assumptions.

Dirk

I'm not claiming, nor was I ever claiming to have access to some sort of absolute truth or knowledge. There are certain things that are pretty easy to observe.

I do think carefully about my assumptions/opinions. I realize that much of it is based on my personal experiences (like anything else). However, you are choosing to ignore certain facts (things that have actually happened) that support my opinion, specifically market trends during the SUV boom and how rising gas prices have affected buying patterns despite the fact that you're pretty much guaranteed not to make your money back on gas with the loss you will take trading one car in for another. These things lend to the severity of the importance that SUV's hold in many peoples' lives. Have I researched this? Yes, a bit, and it is a large reason why I no longer drive large cars if there is an alternative. Am I going to start some grassroots movement based only on that? No, but I am going to have an opinion.

There is not enough time in the day to research every thought, or idea that you have. I'm not saying that all of these unresearched thoughts should be unquestionably accepted, but what I am saying is that you are full of shit if you are suggesting that you have hard data on hand to back up every opinion you have.

[chanke4252]

That's a very Freudian thing to say. Do you every get to chapter 2 in his book? It talks about the id, ego and super ego? I liked the Edipus complex myself because its seriously f*d up thing to think about.

There is just something that are annoying to hear over and over again. Someone is going to be wrong and nobody wants to be him/her. But telling someone that they can't drive what they want because its obvious that they shouldn't is annoying. Just as an example though I'm talking about anyone in particular though. If I ever was that person I would google the state or federal law that says people can't drive a truck because its killing the inzone layer. Then I would cite it and end the augument once and for all. But that's just me. I hope I would take a hint long before that and stop being that guy just because I'm wrong and I would want to cut my losses.
Then I would take and inventory of my life and see when somebody died and made me ruler of the moral compass of transportation. If I didn't recall I would stop acting like I'm hot shit on a silver platter quick. Just because that's me again.

It was a joke.

Please note that I never said that people can't drive what they want, or shouldnt be able to drive what they want. I just believe that people would do better to feel a little bit more responsibility for things and not be the stereotypes that we are to the world.

I have no interest in forcing my will upon someone. There is a difference between telling someone what to do, and encouraging them to do their part. Generally though, people don't want to change, it's human nature, it is what it is, so certain types of responses are expected.

I'm not saying I'm right, or that you should adopt my opinion and stance on the issue. I'm also not saying that I have access to some objective truth on the matter, but then again, neither do you.

[chanke4252]

I'm was talking about him not you. We all know your the final word on most things.

No jacking, just responding to a couple of posts in the thread. Now defending myself from devil's advocate. She was just trying to instigate, not that I would expect much more from her given how she chooses to express herself.

This whole thing is continuing because Dirk isn't coming out and just saying what he's thinking. Make a counterargument. What he's doing kind of reminds me of typical conversations people have about the existence of God where they say "prove that he exists", and when someone doesn't they use that for the foundation of their argument. It's not exactly a sound way to make an argument (or not make an argument), which is why I hate devil's advocate.

[Zach929rr]

I know for a fact that they can pass a Saturn pulling a trailer. :crazy:

:lol::lol:

For the record, there is nothing better than the feeling of cc after cc of gasoline being pissed away into inefficiency.

[konichd]

Buicks don't suck! ;)

[whitebrad]

but do they swallow?

[Zach929rr]

Buick doesn't make the Dalton's, the Dalton's make the Buick.

[Pandora-11]

No jacking, just responding to a couple of posts in the thread. Now defending myself from devil's advocate. She was just trying to instigate, not that I would expect much more from her given how she chooses to express herself.

.

That happened to be my orginal thread about education. YOU entered by calling me on my post calling Trevor "little one". I call my children that sometimes because when you're 50.....21 is a little one.
I've been exceedingly kind to Trevor....he hasn't reciprocated because I've questioned Obama's healthcare choices. The only instigating was you who called my posts "ranting" when you supposed yours were civil discourse. You continued to put down because of my "anecdotal" evidence. It's clear that you don't like that kind of evidence unless you are the one using it.

Trevor...let me get your name in lights again.....it will not change how I feel about the healthcare debate. I've stood up for you constantly. Go back and read my posts. If that makes you think everything is about ME...so be it. I can post your disgusting PM if you'd like....junk I took until I told you to just go away. Not sure what you want from me. This certainly won't change my mind.

[Pandora-11]

Go Toyota!!!

[dirkterrell]

Note the words "my guess". I never claimed to know, it just seems likely to ME given your fervor.


Well, you guessed wrong about me. I'm pointing out that you may be guessing wrong about others too.



I made a claim about something that people didn't need. I explained the basis for my statements.


You made claims about "most" SUV drivers based on your observations. I questioned your explanation as a potentially tenuous extrapolation of limited observations.



Again, anecdotal evidence and individual experience is not useless, but well known fact was another source of support, which you seem to ignore or disregard w/ off the wall "maybe" scenarios.


These "off the wall" scenarios describe my situation, about which you made incorrect assumptions.



I'm sure everything you think and every opinion you have is filtered through a team of scientists who promptly conclude it's validity/invalidity. The implication that you do not base your opinions on personal experience is retarded.


No, I think for myself. Facts and opinions are different things.



Besides, this is not constructive discourse. I know why I believe the things I believe.


Yes, and the readers can decide for themselves whether they wish to believe like you do. My goal is to make them wonder whether your belief is justified.



If you want to challenge that, then do it, but this whole "talking around the issue" thing you're doing is kind of dumb. If you want to say something, then just say it, or stop wasting my time.


I have said exactly what I wanted to say. You claimed to know something. I asked how. You gave a response. I argued that it is flawed.



What am I defending it from? So far all I've gotten from you is a bunch of maybes and a challenge that I really see no point in at the moment. If you want something more then, again, stop talking around the issue.


You claimed something about "most" SUV owners. That is a statistical argument that could very well be right. I wanted to know whether it was fact or just your opinion.



Lot's of maybe's. Seriously though man, that's seems absurdly unlikely.


Maybe you need to broaden your horizons a little? The maybes were things that I do and you were about as wrong about me as you could be.



How are all of the people w/ suv's and no hitch going to pull a trailer?


Do "most" SUVs have no hitch. Does "no hitch" mean no hitch frame or just no ball in the receiver?



Is the guy in the escalade or H2 really so financially limited that he can't afford another vehicle?


I don't presume to know. Maybe you should tell him whether he is or not.



But really, the odd ones out don't really represent the whole.


But this is the very essence of my questioning of your claims. How do you know that these "odd ones out" are not "most"? You're making statistical claims with nothing to back them up other than your observations. Mine are different. How do we reconcile that?



I'm not claiming, nor was I ever claiming to have access to some sort of absolute truth or knowledge. There are certain things that are pretty easy to observe.


And there are certain things that are pretty easily to erroneously conclude from a limited set of observations.



I do think carefully about my assumptions/opinions. I realize that much of it is based on my personal experiences (like anything else). However, you are choosing to ignore certain facts (things that have actually happened) that support my opinion, specifically market trends during the SUV boom and how rising gas prices have affected buying patterns


When the economy is down, people may not go camping, race motorcycles, etc. and no longer need a vehicle that can enable those things.



No, but I am going to have an opinion.


So it is your opinion that most SUV drivers don't "need" them? Fair enough.



There is not enough time in the day to research every thought, or idea that you have. I'm not saying that all of these unresearched thoughts should be unquestionably accepted


I am merely providing some questions about those assumptions and opinions.

Dirk

[chanke4252]

Well, you guessed wrong about me. I'm pointing out that you may be guessing wrong about others too.

I'm not convinced of either. You're just going after this too intensely, and I've been around too many people to believe that it is simply because you think my opinion is ill formed. Sorry dude, there's something else to it.



You made claims about "most" SUV drivers based on your observations. I questioned your explanation as a potentially tenuous extrapolation of limited observations.

Some were limited observations, some were conclusions drawn from large scale factual information, such as the SUV boom and how gas prices affected buying trends. Ignore it if you want, I don't care.



These "off the wall" scenarios describe my situation, about which you made incorrect assumptions.

Maybe this, maybe that, maybe everyone suddenly needed SUV's, maybe it was because SUV's were new (they werne't) and bla bla bla. Give me a break man. Yes, a lot of unrealistic off the curve scenarios.



No, I think for myself. Facts and opinions are different things.

Cool



Yes, and the readers can decide for themselves whether they wish to believe like you do. My goal is to make them wonder whether your belief is justified.

Cool



I have said exactly what I wanted to say. You claimed to know something. I asked how. You gave a response. I argued that it is flawed.

You have said very little for yourself. You have an obvious stance on the issue, but won't come out and say it. Devil's advocate isn't a substitute for a legitimate response of your own.



You claimed something about "most" SUV owners. That is a statistical argument that could very well be right. I wanted to know whether it was fact or just your opinion.

This is getting old



Maybe you need to broaden your horizons a little? The maybes were things that I do and you were about as wrong about me as you could be.

Honestly, at this point I've lost track of your maybes. I'm mainly thinking of the maybes related to larger trends, not individual situations. I'd go back and get a quote but, like I said, this is getting old.



Do "most" SUVs have no hitch. Does "no hitch" mean no hitch frame or just no ball in the receiver?

I never said most SUV's don't have a hitch. Many (not most), however don't. And I was referring to the frame.



I don't presume to know. Maybe you should tell him whether he is or not.

Orly?



But this is the very essence of my questioning of your claims. How do you know that these "odd ones out" are not "most"? You're making statistical claims with nothing to back them up other than your observations. Mine are different. How do we reconcile that?

I don't care?



And there are certain things that are pretty easily to erroneously conclude from a limited set of observations.

And there are certain things that are easy to do when you can't express your own opinion, like playing devil's advocate.



When the economy is down, people may not go camping, race motorcycles, etc. and no longer need a vehicle that can enable those things.

Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. Take a stance on an issue for once.



So it is your opinion that most SUV drivers don't "need" them? Fair enough.

Yes



I am merely providing some questions about those assumptions and opinions.

Dirk

Cool, have fun. However, you have an obvious stance on the issue (I'm just waiting for you to sack up and verbalize it). Have the balls to put it out there. Otherwise it just seems like you are unwilling to hold yourself to the same standard, and, well, yah.

I'm kind of getting tired of the bla bla bla'ing considering you aren't putting your own stance out there, so I probably won't be responding to everything next time. At the very least I'll just be ignoring the bulk of it, unless you choose to actually say something.

[chanke4252]

That happened to be my orginal thread about education. YOU entered by calling me on my post calling Trevor "little one". I call my children that sometimes because when you're 50.....21 is a little one.
I've been exceedingly kind to Trevor....he hasn't reciprocated because I've questioned Obama's healthcare choices. The only instigating was you who called my posts "ranting" when you supposed yours were civil discourse. You continued to put down because of my "anecdotal" evidence. It's clear that you don't like that kind of evidence unless you are the one using it.

Trevor...let me get your name in lights again.....it will not change how I feel about the healthcare debate. I've stood up for you constantly. Go back and read my posts. If that makes you think everything is about ME...so be it. I can post your disgusting PM if you'd like....junk I took until I told you to just go away. Not sure what you want from me. This certainly won't change my mind.

Just can't keep the bitterness in, huh? But seriously, at least have the decency to poo poo on the thread that you are complaining about.

I agree though, yes, you've been so exceedingly kind. I tell my friends about how kind you've been, they're all amazed and want to meet you. And of course there wasn't anything even remotely condescending about your "little one" comment or the way you chose to express yourself in that situation. It was truly a very adult way to express yourself. I truly value your well rounded opinions.

[Pandora-11]

THank you!!http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[chanke4252]

You're welcome!

[The Black Knight]

Just can't keep the bitterness in, huh? But seriously, at least have the decency to poo poo on the thread that you are complaining about.

I agree though, yes, you've been so exceedingly kind. I tell my friends about how kind you've been, they're all amazed and want to meet you. And of course there wasn't anything even remotely condescending about your "little one" comment or the way you chose to express yourself in that situation. It was truly a very adult way to express yourself. I truly value your well rounded opinions.
HAHAHAHA!!

real or not, man that was cheesy.... :)

[puckstr]

So with all this pissed off Hybrid bashing, Who actually drives a Hybrid on the board?

[DavidofColorado]

So with all this pissed off Hybrid bashing, Who actually drives a Hybrid on the board?
I have a few stuck in the grill of my truck.

[puckstr]

I have a few stuck in the grill of my truck.


Nice...So David dosen't drive one
Neither do I

But Who does?

[Tipys]

That happened to be my orginal thread about education. YOU entered by calling me on my post calling Trevor "little one". I call my children that sometimes because when you're 50.....21 is a little one.
I've been exceedingly kind to Trevor....he hasn't reciprocated because I've questioned Obama's healthcare choices. The only instigating was you who called my posts "ranting" when you supposed yours were civil discourse. You continued to put down because of my "anecdotal" evidence. It's clear that you don't like that kind of evidence unless you are the one using it.

Trevor...let me get your name in lights again.....it will not change how I feel about the healthcare debate. I've stood up for you constantly. Go back and read my posts. If that makes you think everything is about ME...so be it. I can post your disgusting PM if you'd like....junk I took until I told you to just go away. Not sure what you want from me. This certainly won't change my mind.

Go ahead and post it, there is nothing disgusting about it. I shared and told you my option about you and you got all butt hurt.

And I know am not going to change your mind. But again I love how people are PRO-LIFE untill it effects your wallet. Because you and I both know if Obamacare doesn't go through. Your letting the insurance companys/goverment try kill me and many others like me. So even after meeting someone like me in person you still don't care so I see that as you wanting to see me die.

[dirkterrell]

I'm not convinced of either. You're just going after this too intensely, and I've been around too many people to believe that it is simply because you think my opinion is ill formed. Sorry dude, there's something else to it.


Nope.



Cool, have fun. However, you have an obvious stance on the issue (I'm just waiting for you to sack up and verbalize it). Have the balls to put it out there. Otherwise it just seems like you are unwilling to hold yourself to the same standard, and, well, yah.


No, that's exactly what I'm getting at. I don't know whether "most" SUV owners "need" them. That's the difference between you and me: I don't know what "most" other people need and you say that you do. I asked you to explain why you were so sure of your stance and you failed to give any objective, statistical evidence to support it. You made claims about SUV sales that supposedly justified your claim that "most" SUV purchases are vanity driven. I gave alternate scenarios that you dismissed with no more evidence than you did to back up your original claim. The readers can decide for themselves whether you have the expertise you claim about other people's needs.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

Nice...So David dosen't drive one
Neither do I

But Who does?

Between my Expedition and my Saturn SC1, I am good in the 4-wheeled vehicle department at the moment, but I like what I see in the Fusion hybrid and the Tahoe hybrid.

Dirk

[mathman1000]

:horse:

[mathman1000]

COWS! That's it, cow transportation is the answer! When it doesn't run anymore you can eat it! V6's, screw 'em, get cows!

[Zach929rr]

Or how about a V8 that runs on cow?! Mmmmm.... tasty tasty torque.

[DavidofColorado]

I needed a good reliable car that wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg. I bought an 85 Chevy Blazer (Full size) from my brother for 3k after he blew the engine in it and was nice enough to replace it before selling it. It was a reborn truck that ran like new. I wanted it I needed it I paid for it and I got it. Like most people though I made the mistake of trying to switch to a smaller car to save gas. So I didn't renew the plates and it sits in my driveway and since being unemployed and broke I have to pay more to get plates back on it. She was never fast and she drank to much but she was reliable and got me to work everyday whether there was 3 feet of snow or not. Hell I was the only one made it to work some days. It really is cheaper to drive an older car to death then driving a new one. And when I didn't drive it and could use my motorcycle I did. It saved me even more just by sitting, because there was no payment on it except for insurance.

Now you may ask why don't I sell it and buy something shiny and new? I like this truck and its reliable and will get driven during the winter. That is the end of it as far as justifying my need for it.
If any one has a problem with it then please shut up because your not my mommy and if you still have the fantasy that everybody should drive a econobox or die then you are stuck on stupid and there is no help for you.

Typist, I don't want you to die and I don't want Osama care either. Its not going to be what you think it is. It never is. Why would they need death panels in it? They only want to keep the healthy going not the sick. Anyone that thought end of life panels in a healthcare bill was a good idea doesn't have your best interests in mind. The pie in the sky idea of health insurance is that they pay for it and then STFU. But healthcare sticks its nose in between you and your doctor far to often now what do you think a governement is going to do when its convinced it knows what's best for everyone anyway? Why would they make it manditory that everyone gets health insurance if its so great? Wouldn't you think they wouldn't need to force people into it? Everyone is going to waste half their lives waiting for services instead of getting treated.

If Osama can't find a way to help people pay for insurance that can't pay for it, but needs it, then he should stick to what he does best. Hiding his background and apologizing for America to people that see that as a sign of weekness.

Here's a good article I read on Barrak H. Obama today. And this will hopfully be the last part of the thread that I will hijacking.
POLITICAL FUTURES

"On Friday the International Olympic Committee (IOC) voted to award the 2016 Summer Games to Rio de Janeiro. As you now know, not only was Chicago not chosen to host the 2016 games, but it was the first city knocked out in voting for the four cities still in the running. In addition to the U.S. and Rio the other two were Tokyo (which came in 3rd) and Madrid (2nd). ... [T]he Olympic story completely buried the news that unemployment ticked up to 9.8 percent and is likely on its way to the magic 10 percent mark. ... [T]his was not an embarrassment for Chicago -- only one city was going to get the 2016 Olympics. It was not an embarrassment for the United States -- Brazil is still a pretty good ally. ... It is a personal embarrassment for Barack Obama because he truly believed, or was told, or both, that if he showed up personally to make the final pitch, the IOC would not be able to deny Chicago the Games. Because he is B-A-R-A-C-K O-B-A-M-A the President of All the World! ... The Myth of Obama met the Reality of Obama. Obama lost." --political analyst Rich Galen (http://link.patriotpost.us/?136-1022-1022-67918-10370)

[salsashark]

COWS! That's it, cow transportation is the answer! When it doesn't run anymore you can eat it! V6's, screw 'em, get cows!

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_WENF5AxFUtU/So2pdKo9btI/AAAAAAAAIOw/rPp4Z6wBmn8/cow.jpg

Wow... that's about all I have to say about that. On the other hand, the ability to clip up quotes and retain the [ Quote ] tags is impressive! Way to go all!

[puckstr]

COWS! That's it, cow transportation is the answer! When it doesn't run anymore you can eat it! V6's, screw 'em, get cows!


There farts lead to global warming

[Pandora-11]

You mean "climate change"....that covers everything the climate might decide to do.

[salsashark]

There farts lead to global warming

Yet another reason you can't trust 'em...

[~Barn~]

Who the hell started this dumb ass thread!? Wait.

[DavidofColorado]

Barn,
Your right we should shoot the absent messenger. He started all this, we were getting along just fine before this thread.

lol

Where you been?

[mathman1000]

There farts lead to global warming

no nO NO!!! You didn't think this through...... You put a pipe from the arse to the gas intake and it runs on methane! Holly shit, grass in gas out, fully self supporting, saves the environment, runs on grass, and you eat it when you're done. AND, you won't have to hang a pair of fake balls from the bumper, they're included. I win.

[DavidofColorado]

no nO NO!!! You didn't think this through...... You put a pipe from the arse to the gas intake and it runs on methane! Holly shit, grass in gas out, fully self supporting, saves the environment, runs on grass, and you eat it when you're done. AND, you won't have to hang a pair of fake balls from the bumper, they're included. I win.
I'm sure that you are being tounge and cheek about all that stuff. But wouldn't the occational fart old Betsy not be enough to move a car? You would have to feed them milk and beans to get the kind of farts you need to move a car. And where would you put a cow in a car they're not exactly hood ornimates.

Thinking it thru is fun.

[dirkterrell]

Who the hell started this dumb ass thread!? Wait.

Most people don't need to start threads like this.

Dirk

[Pandora-11]

This makes sense. We use silkworm to produce silk, chickens to produce eggs. Why not pipeline cows, feed them cabbage, beans, etc. and reduce dependence on foreign oil and natural gas. A happy cow indeed.

[CBRSue]

I own a Chevy Tahoe that I've driven back and forth to work for five years, 20+ miles each way, and out on sales calls all day long... some might think after reading some opinions in this thread that I would feel a sense of guilt for being an SUV owner, in other words wasteful b*tch... nope, on the contrary, as I now have this sudden urge to buy this... but I would want to switch out the KTM for a Honda, of course!

http://subscribers.wardsauto.com/images/2008/01/hummer-h3t-2009.jpg

[Pandora-11]

SUE......studies show you won't use it properly.....what studies? I have no idea. Ok...opinions show that you won't use this and you'll be making the rest of us suffer by your carelessness.
Guilt! Be sure that you use the back EVERYday to haul something....and get that cow gas too.http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/images/icons/icon10.gifjk :shocked:/sarcasm/

[CBRSue]

SUE......studies show you won't use it properly.....what studies? I have no idea. Ok...opinions show that you won't use this and you'll be making the rest of us suffer by your carelessness.
Guilt! Be sure that you use the back EVERYday to haul something....and get that cow gas too.http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/images/icons/icon10.gifjk :shocked:

Thank you for the summary! Would've saved me some time had you been able to post this earlier and moved it to the top. :) Oh, and I noticed some cows grazing near Dirk's hood... I'll start feeding them beans and get on the cow gas pronto! :D

I try to stay away from worrying about how other people spend their time and money... for instance, I just kept my mouth shut when I noticed a hybrid owner eating way more that her fair share of grub when there are starving folks out there... yup, all ya'll can do what you want, when you want, and how you want... just stay the hell outta the way when I'm rollin' down the road in my SUV, dammit!!!

[DavidofColorado]

This makes sense. We use silkworm to produce silk, chickens to produce eggs. Why not pipeline cows, feed them cabbage, beans, etc. and reduce dependence on foreign oil and natural gas. A happy cow indeed.
All right but I'm not going to be in charge of changing the filter. You can't always trust that its just a fart you know...

[Pandora-11]

Thank you for the summary! Would've saved me some time had you been able to post this earlier and moved it to the top. :) Oh, and I noticed some cows grazing near Dirk's hood... I'll start feeding them beans and get on the cow gas pronto! :D

I try to stay away from worrying about how other people spend their time and money... for instance, I just kept my mouth shut when I noticed a hybrid owner eating way more that her fair share of grub when there are starving folks out there... yup, all ya'll can do what you want, when you want, and how you want... just stay the hell outta the way when I'm rollin' down the road in my SUV, dammit!!!

That hybrid owner is using WAAAAAY too much toilet paper too. I think we should ration TP as people don't use it properly. Sheryl Crow said it best.....one square per visit......and mandate the classic rule: "If it's yellow, just be mellow, if it's brown...flush it down...but only with one square of TP."
(Sorry...that was a bit crude.....)



SUe.....Will you be driving in chankles' neighborhood, do ya think? today? (I'm sorry...that wasn't nice either. This forum has caused to engage in intensely bad behavior.) Therapy is needed for sure.

[CBRSue]

That hybrid owner is using WAAAAAY too much toilet paper too. I think we should ration TP as people don't use it properly. Sheryl Crow said it best.....one square per visit......and mandate the classic rule: "If it's yellow, just be mellow, if it's brown...flush it down...but only with one square of TP."
(Sorry...that was a bit crude.....)


:lol: Sorry? Don't be sorry - rude, "crude" and socially unacceptable references make the best jokes fo sho.






SUe.....Will you be driving in chankles' neighborhood, do ya think? today? (I'm sorry...that wasn't nice either. This forum has caused me intense bad behavior.) Therapy is needed for sure.

I'm guessing I better not comment on that one!