Prop. 19, Legalize it?

[Sarge]

So, CSC, what would you vote?

Arguments for:


(CNN) -- Former U.S. Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders told CNN Sunday she supports legalizing marijuana
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2010/10/17/nr.joycelyn.elders.legal.pot.cnn?iref=allsearch


Like Prohibition did for alcohol, drug prohibition is also enriching organized crime. Instead of regulating marijuana to control who can access it, policymakers have ceded control of the $400-billion-a-year global drug market to crime syndicates and thugs.

...

What matters most is not how many people use marijuana, alcohol or other drugs, but what's the best way to reduce the problems associated with substance misuse without creating more harmful social problems. Drug use rates rise and fall almost independently of what politicians say and do, but criminalizing drug use makes the situation worse. Prohibition doesn't stop drug use; it makes drug use more dangerous while filling prisons with nonviolent offenders and making crime lords rich. With marijuana use among young people rising despite decades of punitive drug policies, policymakers should reform U.S. drug policy. Or maybe voters will reform it for them.

...

Drug use is so widespread the FBI changed its policy of not hiring people with a history of illegal drug use because the policy disqualified so many people that it could not fill its law enforcement positions.


http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/28/piper.decriminalize.pot/index.html


And against:



As for the drug war, I defer to the expert -- the person who has put his life and the lives of his family in danger to take the fight to drug traffickers: Mexican President Felipe Calderon.
He has strongly condemned Proposition 19, saying that it reflects lax attitudes toward drug consumption in the United States, which is the life's blood of the drug trade.
Calling the growing acceptance of marijuana use by the American public absurd, Calderon warns that should the measure be adopted. it would only drive up demand and undercut joint efforts by the United States and Mexico to combat the drug cartels. It's a subject he knows well.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/10/14/navarrette.pot.prop/index.html

(It's a lot more difficult to find arguments against, other than saying "It's bad and should be illegal.)

So, CSC, how do YOU feel about prop 19? Let's get those opinions flowin'...

[salsashark]

OK... first off, don't smoke it, won't have it in my house, don't much care to be around people who are smoking it.

That being said, I say hell yeah. Legalize it and tax the holy hell out of it. Put it under the management of the ATF (ATFW?). Put the same controls in place that are there for the alcohol and tobacco. Make sure the same substance abuse laws are in place for weed. Pop people for driving while thc impaired, stoned in public, etc...

The only reason Calderon is against it is because he know which side his bread is buttered on. He can feed all the lip service he wants, but the drug trade is a major cash inflow into Mexico. Hell, we always talk about not exporting jobs... maybe it's time to take this one back.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Fuck Calderon, his worthless corrupt gov't, and all the rest of mexico can kiss my ass. He knows what will happen to his economy if all the drug money and all the money the illegals here send back were to stop suddenly. Of COURSE he wants illegals here and the drug money coming back.

We've needed to legalize pot, and I'd argue cocaine too, for years. Make it all legal, it'll be safer (no bad cut, paraquat, etc.), and you'll cut the nuts right off of the cartels, and eliminate all the violence. Prohibition didn't work either, and should be the example of how the gov't CREATED organized crime by blindly making illegal what We The People wanted. I really don't smoke anymore, and haven't for a long time, but I've ALWAYS and WILL always be behind legalizing it for the above reasons AND the fact that I don't believe the govn't has the right to interfere with our right to the "pursuit of hapiness".

P.S. Did I forget to mention "Fuck Calderon?

[puckstr]

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z198/jimmyeightysix/Pot/stonedcat.jpg

[longrider]

I can only echo what has already been said, at face value Calderon's statements are completely backwards as legalization would destroy the cartels since it would just become another farm crop like tobacco. However he has to know how much money it is bringing in to Mexico.

I am all for legalization, however while I have used it I have no real desire to get back into it myself

[Sarge]

I don't agree with what Calderon was saying either, I was just trying to present examples of both sides of the argument, to start a decent debate. :argue:

Last figures I've read state that 28,000 people have died in Mexico in just the last few years since like 2007, that's about 5x as many as we've lost in Iraq and Afghanistan COMBINED in the last 10 years, and at last count some 60% or more of all of the drug money going into Mexico is Marijuana related. They use the Marijuana money to fund the higher costs of production and smuggling of the heavier drugs. I don't know if I'd go as far as legalizing Cocaine as well, but this whole illegal Marijuana thing has become a joke. Now even a U.S. Surgeon General has stated that THC is not toxic, and alcohol and nicotine is. Plus, when was the last time you heard of someone getting stoned and beating their significant other, or getting stoned (WITHOUT ALCOHOL INVOLVED) and getting into a car accident and killing someone? Or smoking too much and getting liver sclorosis? Or smoking too much Marijuana and getting lung cancer for that matter.

I don't smoke Marijuana, for obvious reasons at present, but the whole "illegality" of the thing is a joke and flat out absurd at this point. One of the biggest reasons it's illegal these days anyway is because Hemp paper was going to put some rich tree farmers out of business.

Marijuana is actually a Shedule 1 substance, ranked higher than both Methamphetamine AND Cocaine. I had some nasal surgery a few years back and the doc actually used Cocaine to control the pain and bleeding (And FYI, this was a Military hospital and I was on Active Duty, and this surgery was paid for by Military healthcare). I couldn't feel my top front teeth for a week. But, Marijuana is classified at a higher schedule than Cocaine because it has "A high probability for abuse and no medical benefit."

I'm not really one to argue that Marijuana has any real "medical benefit" but I believe without a doubt that it is a MUCH safer "recreational activity" than a keg of beer and shots of Jager at a Frat party will ever be.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Yeah Sarge, it's ridiculous. That movie "Reefer Madness" and all the hysteria did us a huge disservice. I can't believe how WE allowed this bullshit to happen in the first place.

[Matty]

Yeah..... Another political post!!!!

Wow, we were doing so well.

[Sarge]

Yeah..... Another political post!!!!

Wow, we were doing so well.

I'll admit, I posted this immediately after reading salsa's post about creating another "flaming political thread." Sorry @salsa :puppy:

I'm a terrible person. :devil2:

[salsashark]

Yeah..... Another political post!!!!

Wow, we were doing so well.

see the title and first sentence in my other thread... :321:

just pinching your shoes Matty! :D

[Matty]

see the title and first sentence in my other thread... :321:

just pinching your shoes Matty! :D
See my post in your thread!

[salsashark]

See my post in your thread!

Ok, responded to your other post in the other thread...

wow... this is a lot of work!

[Bueller]

Legalize it.
regulate it and tax it, but don't get greedy, if they tax it to the point of making it more expensive than it it already is people will still bootleg it.
I think it is way less debilitating and 1000 times less addictive alcohol.
if you want to outlaw a drug that has no practical use, is known to kill and is so addictive that people will continue to use it until it does kill them look no further than tobacco. But yet it is legal and thriving so any arguments about public welfare are hypocritical.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Legalize it.
regulate it and tax it, but don't get greedy, if they tax it to the point of making it more expensive than it it already is people will still bootleg it.
I think it is way less debilitating and 1000 times less addictive alcohol.
if you want to outlaw a drug that has no practical use, is known to kill and is so addictive that people will continue to use it until it does kill them look no further than tobacco (or alcohol, or prescription drugs, etc.). But yet it is legal and thriving so any arguments about public welfare are hypocritical.
Yeah, whut he said.

Man, Bueller and I agreeing on more than one thread per year? The apocolypse MUST be coming in 2012!:D

[MetaLord 9]

Problem with taxing the crap out of it is that no one would make money on it. It's not quite like tobacco where people aren't inclined to go grow tobacco leaves in their back yard, dry 'em, process everything and make their own cigarettes. PLENTY of folks grow, process, and consume their own product; far more than grow their own tobacco or distill their own moonshine.

I'm not making an argument against legalization, I'm just pointing out that it's not going to be as cut & dried as we'd like to hope.

[CaptGoodvibes]

Please divert the war-on-pot funds to something constructive. Please!

[MetaLord 9]

^^Yeah, like tax cuts. :D

[Bueller]

Yeah, whut he said.

Man, Bueller and I agreeing on more than one thread per year? The apocolypse MUST be coming in 2012!:D

In that case I would like to disagree with what I posted earlier.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

In that case I would like to disagree with what I posted earlier.
Doh!

[longrider]

Problem with taxing the crap out of it is that no one would make money on it. It's not quite like tobacco where people aren't inclined to go grow tobacco leaves in their back yard, dry 'em, process everything and make their own cigarettes. PLENTY of folks grow, process, and consume their own product; far more than grow their own tobacco or distill their own moonshine.

I'm not making an argument against legalization, I'm just pointing out that it's not going to be as cut & dried as we'd like to hope.

I can't say I agree, it is legal to make your own alcohol but do you know anybody who does it just for the cost savings? As long as they dont get greedy with taxes I would guess 80 - 90% of the market would go to store purchased. The rest of the users would grow there own so it still cuts the criminal cartels out of the business

[derekm]

I first smoked when I was 10(yes ten)years old and smoked here and there(mostly there)for some years. I was a "pot head" from the ages of 17-32(with some breaks). While I now have a "clear head" I self medicated for my broken back after dealing with all the physical & emotional bs I had to with prescription pain meds. That being said I FUCKING LOVE WEED... but no longer smoke, vaporize or eat it but am all for the legalization of it. The only negative I can conjure up is dwai cases going up, but hey people DRIVE to a bar, drink & drive home and have been for decades. I know this happens at some dispensaries, but being that ingesting on site is illegal, it hopefully wont have that negative effect on legalization/retailing.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Alright, who're the assholes who voted "Nay!"?!?! :D
Edit:

[CaptGoodvibes]

Can you make polls show the individual voting in this software? I've seen it before but I'm not inclined to post polls really so I don't know.

[The Black Knight]

Alright, who's the asshole who voted "Nay!"?!?! :D
<-----:down:

:)

[asp_125]

..
(It's a lot more difficult to find arguments against, other than saying "It's bad and should be illegal.)....

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/176013/drugs-are-bad-mkay
:D

[~Barn~]

Can you make polls show the individual voting in this software? I've seen it before but I'm not inclined to post polls really so I don't know.

Don't even worry about it... It'll be October 2009 here again in a few more months.

[chanke4252]

Please divert the war-on-pot funds to something constructive. Please!

I suggest using it to buy me some pot.

[Sarge]

Can you make polls show the individual voting in this software? I've seen it before but I'm not inclined to post polls really so I don't know.


There's an option when you create the thread to display how people vote, but I was trying to be unbiased. :argue:

People tend to be more honest when you don't hold them accountable.

[SOCAL4LIFE!!]

There's an option when you create the thread to display how people vote, but I was trying to be unbiased. :argue:

People tend to be more honest when you don't hold them accountable.

Maybe the people are not being totally honest. I believe in saying what you believe no matter the cost. If you can not say it openly and freely then its not how you really feel. Don't keep your mouth shut because it goes againt the majority. Open your mouth because it goes against the majority.

That being said. There have been a few posts that I agree with. Make it legal and tax it. Don't get overly agressive by saying at 50% tax. Keep it like a normal business. More likely to have actual competition which will keep the price down, meaning the illegal side will stay away. At the same time it will be difficult to detect someone driving while impared. No matter what happens some people will be happy and some people will be upset. My only hope is that the government doesn't screw the pooch with this process like it has with so many other things.

[SOCAL4LIFE!!]

Oh and I think the poll should have been divided up a little differently. Have an option yes because you wanna smoke it and an option for yes because you want to tax it. Because right now it looks like the CSC members just want to get high.

[Sarge]

I thought about something like that originally, or at least creating a "No Comment" vote or something to that effect, but the specific question was California Prop 19, and there's only a Yes or No block on the official ballot, no grey area in between, so that's what I went with.

[SOCAL4LIFE!!]

There is a grey area for the voters though. You will have the people who are flat our against it (for whatever reason), the people for it (for whatever reason) and then the person that is for it under certain conditions. I know it would be nearly impossible to get a poll set up that way. But I still have to voice my opinion. :)

[MetaLord 9]

I suppose, since probably none of us vote in California, that it doesn't really matter all that much who votes in this thread...

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I suppose, since probably none of us vote in California, that it doesn't really matter all that much who votes in this thread...
It may very well become an issue here, it it looks overwhelmingly like the voters here at least would approve it.

[LostBrit]

Legalise it, regulate it, tax it. Also, release all those in prison on possession, and on a case-by-case basis for distribution.

This would be a huge cash (tax) cow for the economy, and reduce the cost of policing, and keeping potheads in prison. Would reduce income to the cartels, but they would still have human and firearm trafficing - might see an increase in those, plus a push for hard drugs to fill the illegal income gap.

Big DUH, just look at the Netherlands and how the rest of Europe has made, or is making the transition.

[Aphrodite]

I voted NO, and am thinking along the lines of the movie "Idiocracy"

[salsashark]

I voted NO, and am thinking along the lines of the movie "Idiocracy"

Everyday I see something that makes me wonder if Mike Judge is clairvoyant...

"There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick-ass lives. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now."

[Snowman]

Legalize it, regulate it, tax it, and force the same laws on it as cigarettes…

I don’t want a cloud pot smoke floating over me while I eating no matter how much the restaurants would love to supply the food.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I voted NO, and am thinking along the lines of the movie "Idiocracy"
Why would you vote no??? Hasn't the gov't interefered in our lives enough?

[Aphrodite]

There are laws in place already, I never said to make new laws either.

[SOCAL4LIFE!!]

Legalize it, regulate it, tax it, and force the same laws on it as cigarettes…

I don’t want a cloud pot smoke floating over me while I eating no matter how much the restaurants would love to supply the food.
Thats a valid point. I hated going to a eating establishment where there were smokers. Pot would only be worse.

Next question becomes. Ok so the government legalizes it. What does the military do?

[TFOGGuys]

Legalize it, regulate it, tax it, and force the same laws on it as cigarettes…

I don’t want a cloud pot smoke floating over me while I eating no matter how much the restaurants would love to supply the food.

Smoking is smoking, be it tobacco or MJ. I agree, subject it to the same regs and taxes currently in place on tobacco, but for gawds sake, abandon the war on drugs. The USG has spent something over a trillion dollars trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs into the US (part of the reason we're in Afghanistan as well), with approximately zero success.... Something like 11 times as much volume makes it into the country undetected as is intercepted. Is a 9% success rate really worth over a trillion dollars?

[Aphrodite]

Keep in mind the op has a black and white proposal listed. I agree with neither, due to the fact that it is creating more government, regardless of the vote.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Keep in mind the op has a black and white proposal listed. I agree with neither, due to the fact that it is creating more government, regardless of the vote.
I guess I don't see "creating more gov't". Yes, you'd have a few more jobs like the people that oversee booze or tobacco, but you'd have far LESS because there would be no need to search for it, prosecute it, take offenders thru the court system, and then the penal system. And, instead of WASTING money trying (unsuccessfully and foolishly) to stop it, you'd MAKE tons of $$ taxing and regulating it. It's nothing but a win/win situation as far as I see. Show me how I'm wrong?

[GaribaldiCU]

I guess I don't see "creating more gov't". Yes, you'd have a few more jobs like the people that oversee booze or tobacco, but you'd have far LESS because there would be no need to search for it, prosecute it, take offenders thru the court system, and then the penal system. And, instead of WASTING money trying (unsuccessfully and foolishly) to stop it, you'd MAKE tons of $$ taxing and regulating it. It's nothing but a win/win situation as far as I see. Show me how I'm wrong?

The bulk of the enforcement is handled by the federal government. The AG has already said, if passed, federal law still trumps it and will be enforced. If anything, you may see an increase of funding for federal agencies. At the state level, it may be a wash. Not taking a side, just saying...

[CaptGoodvibes]

I guess I don't see "creating more gov't". Yes, you'd have a few more jobs like the people that oversee booze or tobacco, but you'd have far LESS because there would be no need to search for it, prosecute it, take offenders thru the court system, and then the penal system. And, instead of WASTING money trying (unsuccessfully and foolishly) to stop it, you'd MAKE tons of $$ taxing and regulating it. It's nothing but a win/win situation as far as I see. Show me how I'm wrong?

I also believe the net result would be smaller government and less crime, but also less brilliance from people that would never try it otherwise that now will, because it's like booze... if it passes...

[Bueller]

The bulk of the enforcement is handled by the federal government. The AG has already said, if passed, federal law still trumps it and will be enforced. If anything, you may see an increase of funding for federal agencies. At the state level, it may be a wash. Not taking a side, just saying...

Fuck the Feds, they can't (won't) stop the illegals, but they want to waste resources on enforcement of laws that are contrary to the wishes of the people.
Try enforcing the borders to stupid pricks!

[CaptGoodvibes]

'Weekend plans' threads will go like this...

"Hey all, anyone want to meet for some joints before the haunted house?" ;)

[Sarge]

Funnily enough, Marijuana is already completely legal in Denver. Just not in the state. It's also legal in Breckenridge. This has already happened in Colorado at a city level, California is just making the next step.



In 2005, Denver became the first major city in the U.S. to make the private possession of less than an ounce of marijuana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_(drug)) legal for adults 21 and older. The city voted 53.49-46.51 percent in favor of the marijuana legalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marijuana_legalization) measure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver


Denver votes to legalize marijuana possession
By Patrick O'Driscoll, USA TODAY
DENVER — Voters here approved making Denver the first major city to legalize small amounts of marijuana, but the mayor warned that state law still makes possession of the drug illegal.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-03-pot_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-03-pot_x.htm)

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/5228509/detail.html (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/5228509/detail.html)

[Sarge]

'Weekend plans' threads will go like this...

"Hey all, anyone want to meet for some joints before the haunted house?" ;)


I thought that's what he was already asking? :think:


:siesta: Isn't that a dude wearing a sombrero and smoking a joint? :bigeyes:

[brennahm]

2 ounces are now a petty crime. Up to 8 is just a misdemeanor.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Fuck the Feds, they can't (won't) stop the illegals, but they want to waste resources on enforcement of laws that are contrary to the wishes of the people.
Try enforcing the borders to stupid pricks!
Ok, this is "bordering" (pun intended:D) on the absurd. I AGAIN agree 100% with Bueller?? Ok, I've gotta reverse my opinion on an earlier post then.......:devil1:

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Ok, I see there are 5 wankers:D (by far the minority) who don't believe in legalizing it. I challenge you to post and give a rational explanation as to why you think our gov't should have the right to infringe on our RIGHT to the "pursuit of happiness".8)

[SOCAL4LIFE!!]

If I were the government my reason for telling you no would be simple. We don't care what you want. If we cared about what you wanted we would let you vote on important issues like healthcare, legal drinking age etc. Instead we will make up your minds for you. So piss off and STFU about it. :D

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

If I were the government my reason for telling you no would be simple. We don't care what you want. If we cared about what you wanted we would let you vote on important issues like healthcare, legal drinking age etc. Instead we will make up your minds for you. So piss off and STFU about it. :D
Hah!:D Too true, sadly.......

[chanke4252]

Ok, I see there are 5 wankers:D (by far the minority) who don't believe in legalizing it. I challenge you to post and give a rational explanation as to why you think our gov't should have the right to infringe on our RIGHT to the "pursuit of happiness".8)

I'll bite.

It should be illegal because it will drive you mad, and you will be unable to control your primitive urges. The result is obviously going to be widespread murder and rape among other things.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I'll bite.

It should be illegal because it will drive you mad, and you will be unable to control your primitive urges. The result is obviously going to be widespread murder and rape among other things.
But, what if we ALREADY rape and pillage?? Must be the Viking blood on my moms side. Can you see me as the "What's in YOUR wallet guy"?:D

Ok, now for some SERIOUS rebuttals......anyone?

[CaptGoodvibes]

I thought that's what he was already asking? :think:


:siesta: Isn't that a dude wearing a sombrero and smoking a joint? :bigeyes:

Haha! I guess so. :imwithstupid:

[laspariahs]

I thought it was already legal from all the damned "dispensaries" around...

If it's going to be legal, like it already is, it needs to be a tightly controlled substance like all other prescription drugs are. why the fuck we have let it get to where there are green crosses on every corner selling weed from who the fuck knows, in who the fuck knows concentrations of THC, and other shit, I have no idea. Even Alcohol and tobacco are better than that crap. Sell it in a pharmacy and I'll be all for it, where it is now, it might as well be some guy on a corner, no better.

It does have medical uses, and that's the sad thing, why we have let it get to this point is a disaster. Oh and if it's going to be legal, we need 50% taxes on it. I need my socialized healthcare, pot heads might as well pay for it. Oh and I need higher taxes on tobacco and alcohol as well.

[Bueller]

Even Alcohol and tobacco are better than that crap.

You must be high

[#1Townie]

Don't stop at pot make it all legal!! I want some acid!!