Workout Supplements - Pre and Post

[dragos13]

Hey guys and girls,

Just wanted to start a discussion on pre and post workout supplements. This is specific to building lean muscle and increasing mass.

Right now this is what I take:

Daily:
Men's Daily Pack vitamins: Multi, Vitamin C, D and some other stuff
Fish oil

Pre workout:
GNC Amplified N.O. Loaded

Post workout:
GNC Amplified Wheybolic Extreme 60
GNC Amplified Creatine 189

Workout (4 day rotation):
Chest
Arms
Shoulders/Back
Legs

Each day I also do about 30 min on the bike and some ab/core workout.

So, what have you guys used to add muscle quickly? Any pros/cons for pre and post workout supplements? What has worked and what do you stay away from?

All comments are greatly appreciated!!!

[MetaLord 9]

I anticipate Nate's longest post ever soon...

[Mother Goose]

I usually drink a Monster, then go take the dog out, then sit back on the couch and have another Monster. ;)

But yeah, Nate should be in here pretty soon. He's up on his pre/post workout stuff. If I ever have questions, he's the first person I ask.

[puckstr]

So, what have you guys used to add muscle quickly? Any pros/cons for pre and post workout supplements? What has worked and what do you stay away from?

All comments are greatly appreciated!!!


Add dry muscle

Workout
TAKE HALOTREN (you can get it at "Save on Suppliments" Kipling and Bowles beside 24 hour fitness)
Eat right


PROS ....it WORKS ( I am 43 and this stuff ROCKS)
PROS .... only 2 pills (one in the AM, and one PM)
CONS .... High Price ~$70
CONS .... You should only take it 2 months, then 2 months off. (I do one month on and one month off)

http://www.topchoicesupplements.com/v/vspfiles/photos/PowerLab_Halotren-2T.gif

[dragos13]

I've never tried Halotren before but I definitely like the reviews. Seems to be exactly what I need.

I also plan on going to Save on Supplements for now on. I never heard about that place until I joined up at 24hr last month. Guess its the place to go :)

[bulldog]

I anticipate Nate's longest post ever soon... lol..you asked for it, and this is even keeping it simple.

Basically diet is probably 70% if not higher in gaining muscle mass and it really depends on your goal. If you want to get really bigger and have a fast metabolism, like me, then you are going to have to eat a lot of protein and basically get fat, then lean it all out.

I did 5,000 calories a day for 2 months, stopped all cardio, did a lot of legs and heavy lifting. I gained a lot of weight, but fat too. Then I shredded it all by doing cardio again and limiting my calories.

Currently I eat every two hours, mainly about 3-4 whey protein shakes a day, which comes out to over 250 grams of protein a day just from shakes; they say 1-2 grams per pound of body weight. I am working out 6 days a week though and need the protein.

As for supplements it really depends how far you want to go and what you feel is "safe". Just remember that a lot of supplements are not FDA approved so you never know what you are putting in.

As Puckstr (you ever seen the size of his arms!) said Halotren is a great supplement and I have done it before and by far the best supplement I have ever tried. Anything like that is going to be hard on your kidneys and should be taken correctly with time off, liver regen supplement, and post-cycle.
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/newliverclean.html
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/halotren.html
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/postcycle.html

I love Powerlab Nutrition, who makes Halotren, and pair it with there pre-workout drink Mass Pump, which does not give the water weight as most creatine drinks.

http://www.saveonsupplements.com/masspump.html

For post workout I just drink a protein shake within 1/2 hour after workout....no later than 1/2 hour as this is the most important time to get protein!!!!

A good multi vitamin of course

Lots of water and proper rest

Eat healthy (limit sodas, fried foods, and alcohol)

And always push yourself harder eachworkout and change up your routine a lot. Too many people get comfortable with one routine or weight, but or bodies need to be challenged to keep growing. Also remember to lift really heavy sometimes because these kick in your secondary muscles that only work when you are struggling and are the one that grow big.

I went from 135 to 190 (currently at 175 because I like to have ripped abs and be lean), in a few years and this is all a huge science and a lot of time can be wasted if not done right. Protein/calories are the main thing here if you want to get bigger because if you are not getting enough you will be gaining muscle, then your body will eat that muscle because it needs the energy, being counterproductive. When you get to your target then concentrate on keeping it, by eating healthy and balancing the protien/calories with cardio.

[bodhizafa]

Good write up.

Protein, protein, protein & water, water water.......change up the routines by periodizing them. Make sure to supplement your hypertrophy training with some functional training.

HGH if you got a ton of cash laying around :)

[Scer]

I was about to say..

During workout:
water!!

I haven't been working out much and need to get back into it more. I would be down to set goals with you Casey and be a long distance workout buddy to help push each other if you want. ??

check out freetrainers.com. Put in your present situation and goals and it will breakdown the type of diet you should have. Protein, carbs, fat, calorie..

I usually do full body work out 12 times a week for an hour each time. Cardio, calisthenics free weight and stacked weights. What kind of build are you looking for?? I am assuming more of an all around strong muscle yet flexible rather than a stocky power lifter right?

Usually I am about 165lbs with about 3-4% fat (Just means I don't have to suck in my gut to look good, jk Nate!!). The only supplements I take are morning Men's vitamin, protein shakes (whey of course) and some creatine. Mostly cause I could not get enough in my diet.

lift on liftas

[MetaLord 9]

p90x. :D

[bulldog]

Usually I am about 165lbs with about 3-4% fat (Just means I don't have to suck in my gut to look good, jk Nate!!).

lol...I knew you werre going to say that. Like I said that was during my gaining period and really the only way for a skinny ass like me to gain weight. Did that and leaned it all out, but kept the strength and muscle. You would be proud Scer, I am back down to like a 30 inch waist and no gut.


p90x. :D Three times a week I do the ab P90X and it works...tough stuff though. I don't do the other workouts though because I would loss too much weight since it is mainly cardio driven....

[Scer]

LOL. I had to bro...

Nice to hear man. I am still stubborn and staying on the gain as I go program. We will call it my muscle layaway program. haha.

I am proud of you mi hijo! I don't have to hide the snickers bars anymore. :P I need your number btw! Text me. 720.323.6162.

play on playas

[puckstr]

I juice (not-roids) daily. Jack Lalane Juicer. I wore out my Juice man Jr.
I don't know if this helps for muscles but It makes me feel great.

http://www.jacklalannejuicers.net/images/Jack%20LaLanne%20Power%20Juicer%20Classic
The Power is in da Juice
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/profile-ak-snc4/object3/252/27/n72391367479_5779.jpg

[puckstr]

Breakfast
Juice: Try to stick with Organic produce if possible

2 tomatoes
1 apple
1 carrot
2 celery stalks
Grapes
Parsley (be NEAR a toilet..... it can cause you to poop like crazy...but that is a good thing)


During the day eat bannas to keep up your potasium.

I have tried the protein shakes but they made me put on fat. Me no like that.

[bulldog]

I juice (not-roids) daily. Jack Lalane Juicer. I wore out my Juice man Jr.
I don't know if this helps for muscles but It makes me feel great.

http://www.jacklalannejuicers.net/images/Jack%20LaLanne%20Power%20Juicer%20Classic
The Power is in da Juice
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/profile-ak-snc4/object3/252/27/n72391367479_5779.jpg
I have been buying the mixed frozen fruit bags from Costco and throwing those into a vanila protein shake and blend. Get my juice and protein in at the same time.

Breakfast for me is a bowl of whole grain Oatmeal and a protein shake.....

[puckstr]

I have been buying the mixed frozen fruit bags from Costco and throwing those into a vanila protein shake and blend. Get my juice and protein in at the same time.

Breakfast for me is a bowl of whole grain Oatmeal and a protein shake.....

I also eat a bowl of Fat free yogurt with oats and agave nectar (for taste)

I tried the EAS protein stuff from Sam's and it made me sick to my stomach.

This stuff was BAD for me.

http://scene7.samsclub.com/is/image/samsclub/0079108350972_A?wid=206&hei=202&op_sharpen=1

[bulldog]

I also eat a bowl of Fat free yogurt with oats and agave nectar (for taste)

I tried the EAS protein stuff from Sam's and it made me sick to my stomach.

This stuff was BAD for me.

http://scene7.samsclub.com/is/image/samsclub/0079108350972_A?wid=206&hei=202&op_sharpen=1
Any chance you could be lactose intolerant? I am and I found that Elite is the easiest to digest because they add proprietary digestive enzymes. It is also one of the best tasting of the many I have tried
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/ndyel5pr.html
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:BOVwcu1W8ZhpWM:http://www.fourdiet.com/images/DYMATIZE-ELITE-WHEY-2268G.jpg&t=1

If you are worried about fat and have extra money, they make a liquid protein with zero fat! I say save the moeny and stay on the elliptical machine an extra 15 minutes instead :lol:
http://images.netrition.com/images/dymatize_elite_liquid_protein.jpg
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/ellipr.html

[bulldog]

Glutamine is also an important supplement to use and helps with soreness. It is cheap and tasteless....

Here is one kind:
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/opglut.html

[puckstr]

Any chance you could be lactose intolerant? I am and I found that Elite is the easiest to digest because they add proprietary digestive enzymes. It is also one of the best tasting of the many I have tried
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/ndyel5pr.html
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:BOVwcu1W8ZhpWM:http://www.fourdiet.com/images/DYMATIZE-ELITE-WHEY-2268G.jpg&t=1

If you are worried about fat and have extra money, they make a liquid protein with zero fat! I say save the moeny and stay on the elliptical machine an extra 15 minutes instead :lol:
http://images.netrition.com/images/dymatize_elite_liquid_protein.jpg
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/ellipr.html


I have tried the Elite product and had good results. I actually had to buy larger shirts..woo hoo

When I tried the EAS crap I was being cheap and that was a big mistake.

I may have to check on the "Elite liquid protein":D

[MetaLord 9]

Three times a week I do the ab P90X and it works...tough stuff though. I don't do the other workouts though because I would loss too much weight since it is mainly cardio driven....
There are really only two cardio driven sections of it...

[cdbouncer]

I'm way out of the loop and practice but I used to play this game....

have you checked out the AR forums? - google anabolic review...

If you are really looking for people who've figured this out - these guys have. I'm not pushing steriods and many many of the members of this site do not do steroids and are big and ripped - I used to be one who was small and ripped. Good information -just a thought.

Nate (who i'm sure looks like his post sounds) is right....building lean muscle fast is 70%+ diet 30% harder work in the gym than you're used to. You need to eat more protein than you think you can - the cleaner you can keep the rest of your calories the less fat you add while gaining that lean mass - that's the bottom line from my experience.

[Devaclis]

If you want to gain muscle, eat muscle. Lots of beef works well

I am in the prep stages for hibernation so I am all about the berries and field grass and the occasional chunk of pot roast. I only eat the fat. The cats get the rest. I recommend a very high carb liquid bread diet as well

[The Black Knight]

I'll throw in my .02 cents here. Most has been hit on but one thing I wanted to point out. Is if you're trying to grow and add muscle fast. You need to shock your muscles as much as possible and also lift heavy.

Shocking your muscles is not getting your muscles used to a specific training regimen. Mix it up, when targeting a specific muscle group. The main reason for mixing up your training routine is so you don't plateau. So do the same workout routine for a few weeks, then completely change it up. You're still targeting the same muscle group but using different techniques.

Heavy weights are another key. Don't kill yourself(or strain something) but don't sit there and lift weights that don't make you break a sweat. You want to lift heavy and keep your reps down. Sure lighter weight and higher reps are great for blood volume, but in my experience they don't offer the same growth as heavy weights and low reps.

Everyone responds differently though, some guys really grow on lighter weight/high rep routines, while others grow with the heavy weight/low rep routine. I fell in the latter category, I tried to do more volume and didn't see results. It's all in your body make-up. I will say that it is nice to polish off a training session of heavy lifting with one last exercise of high rep and light weight and blast it out as quickly as possible.

The things that helped me grow were Whey protein, Creatine and tribulus. I really can't give you great nutrition advice, as I never really got into being ripped and I like to eat. So I went for size and strength.

[highpsi03]

I'm glad this thread was started, i just started working out two weeks ago... Last year i weighed 135lbs, this year i weigh 175lbs, and not it's not muscle. I'm not fate, but i'm not muscle either. So i just started working out to build muscle.. I've really stuck to it thus far, but it's only been a few weeks. I've changed my diet, alot more protein, no soda at all, and i drink mostly water, and some beer. I know the beer isn't good, but i don't go overbored, one or two a week. I'm currently drinking a muscle milk before work out (30mins) and another right after i work out. I'm a bit lost in the gym as to what i need to be doing exactly, i feel scattered. A friend at work has suggested i try No-explode to get me a bit more motivated and to help get a better pump, any suggestions for me?

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Ohhhnly girrrlie-menn uuuse sooplements, ja!

[The Black Knight]

I'm glad this thread was started, i just started working out two weeks ago... Last year i weighed 135lbs, this year i weigh 175lbs, and not it's not muscle. I'm not fate, but i'm not muscle either. So i just started working out to build muscle.. I've really stuck to it thus far, but it's only been a few weeks. I've changed my diet, alot more protein, no soda at all, and i drink mostly water, and some beer. I know the beer isn't good, but i don't go overbored, one or two a week. I'm currently drinking a muscle milk before work out (30mins) and another right after i work out. I'm a bit lost in the gym as to what i need to be doing exactly, i feel scattered. A friend at work has suggested i try No-explode to get me a bit more motivated and to help get a better pump, any suggestions for me?
This might sound cheesy and cliche, but buy a couple magazines of FLEX or Muscular Development. Regardless of the some of the roided up meatheads that are in those mags, they do offer good tips and exercises to use. My favorite was always Muscular Development, because they really focused on all aspects of weight training, from nutrition, to supplements and even information on steroids(which I don't recommend or endorse at all) but the info was in there about the pros and cons in their use.

It always had good info on exercises and tips for training. Plus the editor always had the top bodybuilders do advice columns and you could find some good info in their articles as well. Lee Priest was always my favorite and I'll admit I learned a lot of training tips for shocking your arms from him.

[highpsi03]

Thanks man.

[The Black Knight]

Thanks man.
NP, just remember that just like riding at your own pace, also lift at your own pace. Take the basic concepts that you'll learn from those guys and apply it to your weight routine. Obviously someone that's a greenhorn to lifting isn't going to be lifting what they lift or should even try to for that matter. But modify it to fit your training.

And I think probably the most important piece of advice I've ever heard any experienced lifter give, is "listen to your body". There will be days when you just ain't feeling it, so don't push it. Everyone has those days, I know I did. Sometimes I'd just go into the gym and just kill it and other days when I thought I would have a great workout, turned out to be mediocre at best. Listen to your body, it's the best indicator for when it comes to over-training yourself. Because once you get to over-training, the next step is an injury. And nothing will screw up your workout experience more than an injury.

[FZRguy]

I like Myoplex.

highpsi, a personal trainer is worth the $ if you’re new to the gym.

[(( LO LO ))]

If you want to kill it in the gym.... Get JACK3D! This stuff is amazing!!!

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/X6NUj-8eBAUd9TKpX5E8kTBIzo1QvJmjivos_HO1PCaW0jw2hHK3N3z9 U5SItvQQXPhGZqJboUGeZuGaZQqlVaTKnjt6WLT79i2bUC10Ee stB9-7AvVPiCamtfKXEIZ917x5uhAyeu0vJdZDQDCpfb06u32Je3RTk utU8ryShdbS


Comes in other flavors too! I have never had the intesity and focus with any other supplement.

And protein, to feed the guns...
http://gnc.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pGNC1-5817876t300x300.jpg
And a good multi vitamin for health...

http://www.diet.com/products/000065.jpg

[Sleev]

Caffeine, creatine and whey protein. I cycle on and off the creatine. IMO the whey at gnc is overpriced and one of the highest in cholesterol. Read labels and you'll see what I mean. Vitamin cottage has pure whey protein in bags. It's cheaper than most of the other brands and doesn't have sugar and other additives in it. It also tastes worse. Go figure

[highpsi03]

NP, just remember that just like riding at your own pace, also lift at your own pace. Take the basic concepts that you'll learn from those guys and apply it to your weight routine. Obviously someone that's a greenhorn to lifting isn't going to be lifting what they lift or should even try to for that matter. But modify it to fit your training.

And I think probably the most important piece of advice I've ever heard any experienced lifter give, is "listen to your body". There will be days when you just ain't feeling it, so don't push it. Everyone has those days, I know I did. Sometimes I'd just go into the gym and just kill it and other days when I thought I would have a great workout, turned out to be mediocre at best. Listen to your body, it's the best indicator for when it comes to over-training yourself. Because once you get to over-training, the next step is an injury. And nothing will screw up your workout experience more than an injury.
I agree, the other day i went to work out, got on the machine and just couldn't do it, arms and chest were way to sore, i mean i could have pushed it and did it but i decided not to. Took a swim and went home. Feeling better so i'll hit it up tomorrow. I've looked into personal trainers but they are so pricey, it would seem better to toss someone on here who trains a 20$ or buy a few beers to help me get a good routine.

[rforsythe]

Caffeine, creatine and whey protein. I cycle on and off the creatine. IMO the whey at gnc is overpriced and one of the highest in cholesterol. Read labels and you'll see what I mean. Vitamin cottage has pure whey protein in bags. It's cheaper than most of the other brands and doesn't have sugar and other additives in it. It also tastes worse. Go figure

Consider that the whey protein supplements may come from milk, so if it has lactose (a carbohydrate composed of two simple sugars - glucose, and galactose) that is not really an additive so much as something that wasn't taken away.

Milk as a mixer for your powdered shakes is great as well. Aside from the sugar that your body uses as fuel, the milk fat carries several vitamins and proteins in the globules; there is also the ever-popular whey protein. Of course it also has calcium, which is critical to your body's nonstop process of bone destruction and reconstruction. As long as you aren't lactose intolerant and have a need to burn the fuel, milk is good to drink a lot of.

Interestingly, the majority of people are lactose intolerant as well; it seems that the lactose-metabolizing enzymes fall off after infancy. People of primarily norther-European descent however seem to have a genetic marker that allows them to drink quite a bit of milk without issue. For the rest, there are additives you can put in that will let your body break it down.

[GreenGobblin]

Those who are drinking all the juices, remember that using a juicer to get your fruits and veggies is not even close to the same as eatting them in the whole form. On the other hand there are some good things about using shakes like putting in Acai and other type of fruits/ veggies/ supplements that are not good alone. I work at Whole Foods and know there are a lot of different things that can help out the process of building muscle with the addition of things that most people dont know about.

Everyones comments have seemed to be on the right track, especially with knowing your own body, changing the routine up, etc!

[cromer611]

what if you want to shed pounds(fat) like me so i can keep up with the lean mean dragos next year...



and yes im seriously asking to get rid of my gut and handles.

[dragos13]

Thanks for all the help guys!

I was wondering what everyone thinks about creatine, and more specifically the monohydrate vs the hydrochloride. The reps at GNC said the new hydrochloride is suppose to work better and be safer on the body. I have always used the regular stuff but this month decided to try the new creatine.

And Cromer, you will NEVER keep up with me again ;)

[dragos13]

Another question, I keep hearing you should be taking about 1g of protein per each pound of body weight every day. Is this correct?

Also, is it ok to work abs every day or should you rest them like every other muscle group?

[cdbouncer]

Every muscle group needs rest if you're working it hard. Remember that you're using your core (including your abs) during every single workout that you do. Holding your core tight during cardio and lifting and daily activities along with blasting it every 2 days or so really do a number on those muscles. Don't "hit abs" every work out -- no growth if no recovery.

Are you trying to get bigger? If you want to add mass I'm going to second the lift heavy for fewer reps. I also fell into that category. Also I never did the same 3 moves on back to back days. I always switched up at least one of them. For example - back day - Lat pull, lawnmowers, deadlifts one day...then I'd switch out the deads for tbar or something and switched up the order.

There is something somebody in the gym told me once...you can ALWAYS lift more than you think you can. If you want to build muscle you need to rip it apart so it can grow, then feed it, rest it and do it again.

I always hated creatine....no opinon or knowledge on that part :)

[MetaLord 9]

Meh. This is all great information, but this is the part of working out that is a higher level than I'm interested in. For me, I'm not fat, I'm not ripped, I'm in between. I consider myself fairly strong and I don't tend to run across any situations where I go "damn, I wish I was a lot stronger." I totally get that some folks are working out with specific goals in mind, but I think that you can achieve a really good state of fitness without a lot of this stuff. I think a small part of why people don't get out & exercise more is because this portion (supplements, shocking your muscles, protein ratios, etc.) is intimidating and probably not all that necessary for the average person.

Do you all think/know you'd be a lot different if you didn't do the supplements? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely interested. Do you think that the average person can get above average fitness with just a good routine & a decent diet? Or would you all say that the protein & supplements are integral?

[cdbouncer]

I used only isopure protein to supplement when I was playing this game. I needed a good source of protein without the fat and sugar so I went isopure. Before I got serious I tried all sorts of things - it became 100% clear that unless I was 100% on every aspect of the game - the supplements didn't do anything real. Diet, rest, hydration, gym, cardio - 100% or I was wasting my money.

I'm a firm believer that pre / post workout supplements are unnecessary to actually achieve your goals. I think learning your body, figuring out what your body needs for fuel, what it needs for rest and what it wants in the gym is the key.

Supplements certainly can hurt if taken uneducated or without proper follow through on your diet, your rest, your hydration, etc but generally do assist in the actual speed in which you can achieve your goal.

I guess - in short - Nope supplements aren't for the normal "joe"...they're for the guy who's actually really putting life on hold to reach a goal. That's who they're for - that's who gets the results they talk about and that's who's not wasting their cash. imho

[rforsythe]

Do you all think/know you'd be a lot different if you didn't do the supplements? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely interested. Do you think that the average person can get above average fitness with just a good routine & a decent diet? Or would you all say that the protein & supplements are integral?

It's absolutely possible. But you need to increase and improve your diet beyond what you consume for a sedentary lifestyle. Garbage in = garbage out, so eat nutritious food (and yes, organic really is better). Live on McD's and junk food and it won't matter how much of it you eat or exercise, you will not be healthy. If you're increasing your workload it also stands to reason that you need to increase your fuel intake; protein to build muscle, carbs to give them the energy to function, fat in moderation (unsaturated are good, but a bit of saturated is not bad either - just avoid the trans fatty acids that come from processing food), vitamins to help the body metabolize protein and perform other crucial functions, etc. You don't need to go crazy if you're just trying to burn off some weight and increase cardio, that type of thing, but if you are trying to build muscle mass you need to increase fuel input enough to allow that to occur.

Supplements generally let you work out harder, stressing the muscles more and triggering a more aggressive rebuild process. Some will actually make your blood chemistry change causing muscles to grow faster, those I am not sure about the long term risks of personally. But supplements mean zilch if the underlying diet is crap. Always, always start there.

[MetaLord 9]

Bouncer's & the first part of Ralph's statement make sense (don't have any experience with the second).

I think that people often don't really know how little food/fuel they need in their daily life, which is why so many people over eat. If you ride your bike hard and hit canyons all day, doing 300-400 miles, of course you're gonna need more fuel than you would if you were just commuting to work & back. So it stands to reason that you'd need more fuel for your body when you're spending an hour & a half working out every day versus when you're just parked in a cube exercising your fingertips. I also agree with the garbage in, garbage out mentality on food. I don't always eat that way... :embarrassed: but I do agree with it.

My mentality has always been that if you're gonna spend the time to actually work out, you need to spend the couple of extra minutes figuring out what you want to get out of your workouts. Wanna lose weight? plan your workout accordingly. Wanna get bigger? plan accordingly. Wanna get stronger. plan accordingly. Wanna get chicks to like you? Unless you're obese, you don't need muscles to get a girl, you need confidence. How do you get confidence? Be happy with your body. Not happy with your body? what do you want to change? plan accordingly... Figuring out what you want to do takes less time than the actual workout and it's what makes the time working out well spent.

So are the supplements only for the folks who wanna go hardcore after looks & muscle shape or are they aimed at strength or are they aimed at endurance, etc?

[t_jolt]

Do you all think/know you'd be a lot different if you didn't do the supplements? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely interested. Do you think that the average person can get above average fitness with just a good routine & a decent diet? Or would you all say that the protein & supplements are integral?


Ive kinda sat back and watched this thread, time for my .02 ive been a trainer for years. My true professional opinion. Yes it can be done. But not on a decent diet. It has to be a good diet. The thing is, any one can but its going to time and effort. You actually have to try. And believe it or not thats not something most people are willing to do. As for what supps to take. Do you have to have all that stuff? No. Will having make it easier? Yes. For the average Joe, A multi vitamin, and protein. Now here is a pet peeve of mine. Everyone needs more the just Whey protein. There are 5 different types of protein out there. Whey is just one.

[dragos13]

Bouncer's & the first part of Ralph's statement make sense (don't have any experience with the second).

I think that people often don't really know how little food/fuel they need in their daily life, which is why so many people over eat. If you ride your bike hard and hit canyons all day, doing 300-400 miles, of course you're gonna need more fuel than you would if you were just commuting to work & back. So it stands to reason that you'd need more fuel for your body when you're spending an hour & a half working out every day versus when you're just parked in a cube exercising your fingertips. I also agree with the garbage in, garbage out mentality on food. I don't always eat that way... :embarrassed: but I do agree with it.

My mentality has always been that if you're gonna spend the time to actually work out, you need to spend the couple of extra minutes figuring out what you want to get out of your workouts. Wanna lose weight? plan your workout accordingly. Wanna get bigger? plan accordingly. Wanna get stronger. plan accordingly. Wanna get chicks to like you? Unless you're obese, you don't need muscles to get a girl, you need confidence. How do you get confidence? Be happy with your body. Not happy with your body? what do you want to change? plan accordingly... Figuring out what you want to do takes less time than the actual workout and it's what makes the time working out well spent.

So are the supplements only for the folks who wanna go hardcore after looks & muscle shape or are they aimed at strength or are they aimed at endurance, etc?

You can find supplements for any aspect of health. They basically do as the name says: supplement your diet. For many years, I have just gotten by in decent shape. I eat healthy and worked out once in a while. I have never considered myself out of shape or over weight. Now, I'm trying to get ripped. Bottom line lol. I want to cut body fat and gain lean muscle.

I take the Nitric Oxide load before workouts to increase energy and focus. Its amazing how well it works to hit the gym hard. Now that I'm paying attention to protein, I realize my current diet sucks. I need WAY more protein then I have been taking. Thats where the Whey shakes and Muscle Milk come into play. As for creatine, its more of a test. I worked out for the past month with just the protein shakes and NO. Now, I'm going to add creatine and see what difference it makes over the next month.

I guess, in short, supplements can most likely help anyone. Are the required to get in shape: NO. Will they make it easier to train harder and longer: YES. Are they proven to show results in muscle recovery: YES.

My current diet consists of:

Coffee
Fruit
Protein bar
Muscle Milk
1/2 lunch (usually turkey wrap or chicken sandwich)
Daily vitamins
1/2 lunch (rest of sandwich or whatever)
Pre-workout supplements (N.O. load)
GYM (1.5-2hrs each day)
Post-workout supplements (Whey protein shake and creatine pills)
Dinner (fish or chicken or beef)
Desert (usually fresh vegetables)

[bulldog]

If you want to kill it in the gym.... Get JACK3D! This stuff is amazing!!!

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/X6NUj-8eBAUd9TKpX5E8kTBIzo1QvJmjivos_HO1PCaW0jw2hHK3N3z9 U5SItvQQXPhGZqJboUGeZuGaZQqlVaTKnjt6WLT79i2bUC10Ee stB9-7AvVPiCamtfKXEIZ917x5uhAyeu0vJdZDQDCpfb06u32Je3RTk utU8ryShdbS


Comes in other flavors too! I have never had the intesity and focus with any other supplement.


First off, what's up man!!!! Miss you down here in CO....

Never heard of the stuff before, but I searched around the internet and it has got really good reviews. Seems similar to MassPump that I use http://www.saveonsupplements.com/masspump.html
http://www.blackdiamondsupplements.com/product_images/z/318/mass_pump__85081_std.gif

LoLo, you ever tried MassPump? Just wondering how is compared to the Jack3rd. I may have to try this Jack3d out as I know you have been into fitness even longer than me.

[dragos13]

Ive kinda sat back and watched this thread, time for my .02 ive been a trainer for years. My true professional opinion. Yes it can be done. But not on a decent diet. It has to be a good diet. The thing is, any one can but its going to time and effort. You actually have to try. And believe it or not thats not something most people are willing to do. As for what supps to take. Do you have to have all that stuff? No. Will having make it easier? Yes. For the average Joe, A multi vitamin, and protein. Now here is a pet peeve of mine. Everyone needs more the just Whey protein. There are 5 different types of protein out there. Whey is just one.


How do we know which is which? Of course its obvious what a Whey Protein shake consists of, but what about the protein in Muscle Milk, protein bars, chicken, etc?

[t_jolt]

I think that people often don't really know how little food/fuel they need in their daily life

Please be careful with this statement. As average adult needs 1100- 1400 calories a day to just keep the organs healthy. So please dont put a volume association with this. If you eat healthy, that is a good amount of food.


So are the supplements only for the folks who wanna go hardcore after looks & muscle shape or are they aimed at strength or are they aimed at endurance, etc?

They have supps for all.

[puckstr]

Stemcell Smoothy FTW

[MetaLord 9]

Please be careful with this statement. As average adult needs 1100- 1400 calories a day to just keep the organs healthy. So please dont put a volume association with this. If you eat healthy, that is a good amount of food.
Sure, I get that, but when people start counting calories, you can get 1100-1400 calories by supersizing at McDonalds. I understand that there is minimum amount of calories required, but I also think that a lot of folks eat way past that and it's not necessarily a food volume thing. If you're eating well and eating healthy foods then eating at meal times and snacking in between is good. If you're eating calorie heavy food that's less than good for you're eating until you're a little past full at every meal time & maybe a snack, and you're living a mostly sedentary lifestyle (as many are), then I'd think you're eating too much. If you're eating until your full or over full at every mealtime (assuming 3 meals), and you're not eating particularly healthfully, then I'd think you could possibly cut your portions in half and still be fine?

[t_jolt]

How do we know which is which? Of course its obvious what a Whey Protein shake consists of, but what about the protein in Muscle Milk, protein bars, chicken, etc?

Will most should tell you. it seems to be a selling point.

Here are 4 types i dont remember the 5th off the top my head.
Whey - super fast absorption into the body
Soy - Takes a little longer then whey
Casein - Longer then soy
Egg -longer then Casein

The general accepted rule is that the standard human body can only absorb 55-60 grams of protein in hours. Any more and it goes out the kidneys.

Whey is a great protein after a workout. But after 30 min, its all absorbed and there really much more to feed and help the muscle recover after 30 min. Thats why the other types of protein are so valuable. I prefer protein drinks that mix types. Muscle Milk is one of these. So is Pro Blend 55 ( one of my favs) or something like Myo Lean. All these mix these types of protein together to help keep a constant level of protein in the body for up to 3 hours. ( egg protein takes 1.5 -2.5 hours to ingest) Also now that were talking about protein, The other thing that really helps the protein get to the muscles is your BCAA's. Some proteins mix these into their drinks (muscle milk) others dont.

[bulldog]

How do we know which is which? Of course its obvious what a Whey Protein shake consists of, but what about the protein in Muscle Milk, protein bars, chicken, etc? It usually will say on the packaging, and if you still are not sure just ask the person that works there and they can point you in the right directions.

They are:
Whey protein
Casein protein
Soy protein
Whey hydrolysates (Peptides)
Protein Blends

This should help http://ezinearticles.com/?Choosing-The-Right-Protein-Powder&id=250946


EDIT: NINJA'D BY TJOLT. :lol: Oh well pretty much said the same thing

[t_jolt]

It usually will say on the packaging, and if you still are not sure just ask the person that works there and they can point you in the right directions.

They are:
Whey protein
Casein protein
Soy protein
Whey hydrolysates (Peptides)
Protein Blends

This should help http://ezinearticles.com/?Choosing-The-Right-Protein-Powder&id=250946


EDIT: NINJA'D BY TJOLT. :lol: Oh well pretty much said the same thing


Hey Nate, on a positive note, since Aug. Since that wonderful mess with the Ex. It gave me my motivation back. And a kick in the ass to start following my own advice again. I'm currently down 24 pounds. Im down to 193 with %13 body fat. Still got a ways to go. But i figure 10 pounds a month isnt to bad.

[dragos13]

Thakns for the protein info guys. Its good to know how each kind works differently and is absorbed differently into the body.

So, how would someone calculate body fat?

[bulldog]

Hey Nate, on a positive note, since Aug. Since that wonderful mess with the Ex. It gave me my motivation back. And a kick in the ass to start following my own advice again. I'm currently down 24 pounds. Im down to 193 with %13 body fat. Still got a ways to go. But i figure 10 pounds a month isnt to bad. Nice, one of the most rewarding parts of working out is seeing a positive change in your body and the feeling like you accomplished something.

I am still working out at the 24Hour Fitness on Santa Fe and Belleview, so let me know if you ever hit up that club (I can go to almost any 24Hour Fitness). I was able to get you a few weeks free there, but as you know they will hound you to join.

[bulldog]

Thakns for the protein info guys. Its good to know how each kind works differently and is absorbed differently into the body.

So, how would someone calculate body fat? My advice is to not worry so much on body fat or weight, but judge it how your clothes fit differently; especially pants. Many people use weight as a marker and really it is not good especially if you are just starting out: muscle weighs more than fat.

To answer your question though
Home Body Fat Scales
Skinfold Calipers (Callipers)
Hydrostatic Weighing
http://www.annecollins.com/body-fat-calculators.htm

[t_jolt]

Thakns for the protein info guys. Its good to know how each kind works differently and is absorbed differently into the body.

So, how would someone calculate body fat?

Most gyms also have a little device that you hold on to. The are pretty accurate at +/- 1% then fall off at around 8% or so.

[dragos13]

Thanks Bulldog. I'm definitely not worried about weight. I was surprised to see almost a 10lbs gain in about 3 weeks but I have been really changing diet and hitting the gym every day.

As for bodyfat, I was thinking it would be a good measurement to take now and then in a couple months. I like to track progress, as you said to t_jolt the best feeling is when you can actually notice the difference in how you look and feel. I definitely feel much better with more energy, and also take photos every 30 days to track change. I'm also at 24hr Fitness, usually the one on Kipling and Bowles around 4pm daily :)

[cbrjohnny]

beer

[puckstr]

great now Iam thirsty
http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/hot-girls-beer-4.jpg

[cdbouncer]

Managing bodyfat while adding lean mass is difficult and awesome at the same time. Find a way to measure that works for you - there's a site our there with a good calculation on it www.hussmanfitness.org (http://www.hussmanfitness.org) I think. When I was training my results from the trainers matched this site pretty well.

10lb in 3 weeks is a TON if it's mostly lean mass - you're a prettl lean guy...if you're abs look the same in todays pics as they did 3 weeks ago (leanness wise) you've rocked the gym and your diet and hydration etc. Your body fat% baseline would have been good to know before that 10lbs to really get a feel for things.


Thanks Bulldog. I'm definitely not worried about weight. I was surprised to see almost a 10lbs gain in about 3 weeks but I have been really changing diet and hitting the gym every day.

As for bodyfat, I was thinking it would be a good measurement to take now and then in a couple months. I like to track progress, as you said to t_jolt the best feeling is when you can actually notice the difference in how you look and feel. I definitely feel much better with more energy, and also take photos every 30 days to track change. I'm also at 24hr Fitness, usually the one on Kipling and Bowles around 4pm daily :)

[dragos13]

Managing bodyfat while adding lean mass is difficult and awesome at the same time. Find a way to measure that works for you - there's a site our there with a good calculation on it www.hussmanfitness.org (http://www.hussmanfitness.org) I think. When I was training my results from the trainers matched this site pretty well.

10lb in 3 weeks is a TON if it's mostly lean mass - you're a prettl lean guy...if you're abs look the same in todays pics as they did 3 weeks ago (leanness wise) you've rocked the gym and your diet and hydration etc. Your body fat% baseline would have been good to know before that 10lbs to really get a feel for things.

Thanks for the link :)

I wish that was the case however I have put on "midsection" weight along with the muscle. Thats one reason I was trying to do abs every day. Its like, you can't win lol. I think I will keep going hard and putting down lots of protein, then after another month try to lean it out more. I was super surprised to see 10lbs in gain, I would guess maybe 5-7lbs would actually be muscle, if that.

[cdbouncer]

So - from my perspective and experience...build muscle then lean out. That's what worke for me. It's easier to lean out once you've added the muscle cuz that muscle burns calories...BUT your "cutting diet" can sometimes be brutal so...be patient, you WILL add some fat because you kinda need to to actually build a bunch of lean mass. Also - give yourself enough time to cut before you wanna be riding around the track on a bicycle showing off that progress :) cutting takes time too!

oh - and doing abs every day doesn't keep em lean...your diet does :)


Thanks for the link :)

I wish that was the case however I have put on "midsection" weight along with the muscle. Thats one reason I was trying to do abs every day. Its like, you can't win lol. I think I will keep going hard and putting down lots of protein, then after another month try to lean it out more. I was super surprised to see 10lbs in gain, I would guess maybe 5-7lbs would actually be muscle, if that.

[Survivalism]

So it sure looks like you guys know whats going on, ill post my situation.

Im a youngun ( turn 20 in feb ), i have been doing 30 minutes of cardio 6 days a week for about 6 months, been lifting pretty heavily for about 5 months now as well 5 days a week. I started lifting to help burn more fat, put on lean muscle that will help burn fat, and of coarse for the definition / extra strength. In the 6 or so months i have been doing this so far i am down to 206, wish i weighed myself in the beginning but i was around 250-260.

For the past couple of weeks i have been monitoring my weekly weight loss and i noticed its been 4+ pounds per week, i am worried i am losing alot of lean body mass along with the fat.

My workout looks like this

Mon - Sat cardio on exercise bike for 30 minutes before lifting

Mon - upper body
Bench press
bicep curls
military press
tricep extensions
bent over rows
some homemade forearm exercise

Tues - lower body / backish
leg extension for hamstring ( i think? )
leg extension for quads ( i think? )
squats ( not very effective with these yet, added recently and still trying to get down far / i dont have a squat rack so i cant do heavy weight yet )
dead lifts
calf raises
reverse sit ups
bicycle sit up things
plank for abs

Then on wednesday i do the same upper workout, thursday the same lower workout etc, the only day i take off from everything is sunday. Over the past few months i have added a bunch of exercises and am planning on adding some more ( pull ups lol :D ) when i get back from bow hunting.

My diet is not super picky yet, i eat a bowl of decent cereal in the morning, then i drink 2 carnation instant breakfasts for a bit of protein / some vitamins after my workout. Lunch is kind of weird for me, sometimes i dont eat because im busy and i just forget or ill eat a small granola bar or maybe a full on whole grain turkey sandwich. For dinner ill just have what we are eating at home in reasonable proportions, id say i still eat out at least once a week as well but the portions are reasonable.

No soda, i drink water all day every day and recently id say i do drink some alcohol once or twice a week, not normally beer though.

So finally a few questions i have i guess. First im assuming im not going to really put on muscle unless i start eating alot more / gaining fat again? Does the 24% of body fat i still have help me put on more muscle in any way or should i keep doing what im doing until all the fat is gone and then i can start bulking?

By adding new compound exercises do you think i have been shocking my muscles or do i need to find different lifts that work the same muscles at this point? I have seen some improvement in the amount i can lift but i have nothing to base how good my improvements are.

Lastly i just recently bought one of those nice scales, does body weight, BMI, fat percentage, water percentage and a few other things i believe. How can i use the scales functions to determine if i am losing fat or lean body mass? Is it possible?

Thanks for any help you can give me guys and thanks for reading my long ass post lol.

[bulldog]

So it sure looks like you guys know whats going on, ill post my situation.

Im a youngun ( turn 20 in feb ), i have been doing 30 minutes of cardio 6 days a week for about 6 months, been lifting pretty heavily for about 5 months now as well 5 days a week. I started lifting to help burn more fat, put on lean muscle that will help burn fat, and of coarse for the definition / extra strength. In the 6 or so months i have been doing this so far i am down to 206, wish i weighed myself in the beginning but i was around 250-260.

For the past couple of weeks i have been monitoring my weekly weight loss and i noticed its been 4+ pounds per week, i am worried i am losing alot of lean body mass along with the fat.

My workout looks like this

Mon - Sat cardio on exercise bike for 30 minutes before lifting

Mon - upper body
Bench press
bicep curls
military press
tricep extensions
bent over rows
some homemade forearm exercise

Tues - lower body / backish
leg extension for hamstring ( i think? )
leg extension for quads ( i think? )
squats ( not very effective with these yet, added recently and still trying to get down far / i dont have a squat rack so i cant do heavy weight yet )
dead lifts
calf raises
reverse sit ups
bicycle sit up things
plank for abs

Then on wednesday i do the same upper workout, thursday the same lower workout etc, the only day i take off from everything is sunday. Over the past few months i have added a bunch of exercises and am planning on adding some more ( pull ups lol :D ) when i get back from bow hunting.

My diet is not super picky yet, i eat a bowl of decent cereal in the morning, then i drink 2 carnation instant breakfasts for a bit of protein / some vitamins after my workout. Lunch is kind of weird for me, sometimes i dont eat because im busy and i just forget or ill eat a small granola bar or maybe a full on whole grain turkey sandwich. For dinner ill just have what we are eating at home in reasonable proportions, id say i still eat out at least once a week as well but the portions are reasonable.

No soda, i drink water all day every day and recently id say i do drink some alcohol once or twice a week, not normally beer though.

So finally a few questions i have i guess. First im assuming im not going to really put on muscle unless i start eating alot more / gaining fat again? Does the 24% of body fat i still have help me put on more muscle in any way or should i keep doing what im doing until all the fat is gone and then i can start bulking?

By adding new compound exercises do you think i have been shocking my muscles or do i need to find different lifts that work the same muscles at this point? I have seen some improvement in the amount i can lift but i have nothing to base how good my improvements are.

Lastly i just recently bought one of those nice scales, does body weight, BMI, fat percentage, water percentage and a few other things i believe. How can i use the scales functions to determine if i am losing fat or lean body mass? Is it possible?

Thanks for any help you can give me guys and thanks for reading my long ass post lol.

TJolt may be able to help you out here more since I have always been the opposite and skinny and trying to put on muscle; which consisted of me gaining weight/fat to get the muscle, then leaning it out.

My guess here is to keep doing what you are doing and continue the weight loss to reduce your body fat; my guess is you have the muscle under there; it is just being hidden under your current body fat. I bet when you lean that all out you will have the muscle that you want. Then when you get to the body fat you want to be and decide you want more muscle, follow what has been said in this thread . Be sure to change up your workouts though so you don’t plateau. Sounds like you are making good progress to me if you have lost over 50 pounds in five months……

Sorry never used one of those scales...actually I have never measured my body fat.

[cdbouncer]

First - welcome to the gymrat club :loop: I'm going to put my responses inside your post - hope it doesn't get weird looking...


So it sure looks like you guys k now whats going on, ill post my situation.

For the past couple of weeks i have been monitoring my weekly weight loss and i noticed its been 4+ pounds per week, i am worried i am losing alot of lean body mass along with the fat.

**How tall are you? If you've lost 40-50 pounds that fast kudos to you. The first trick is not to over think things. If you still have more fat to lose and you'd like it gone you're going in the right direction. If you're 6'2"...we have a whole different conversation on our hands. Clean up your diet to keep your muscle and lose the fat. Switch the carnation for isopure or some other protein drink - seriously. Never skip a meal - in fact, eat every 2 to 2.5 hrs. A couple small changes like this will help you to keep your muscle and lose the fat. But - not knowing what you look like, what your stats are, etc - I can't help much more there.

My workout looks like this

Mon - Sat cardio on exercise bike for 30 minutes before lifting
**how intense is your cardio? I'd recommend for fat loss that you do some interval cardio - shorter, more intense and more effective. Cardio is essential for whole body health - don't stop doing cardio.

Mon - upper body
Bench press
bicep curls
military press
tricep extensions
bent over rows
some homemade forearm exercise

Tues - lower body / backish
leg extension for hamstring ( i think? )
leg extension for quads ( i think? )
squats ( not very effective with these yet, added recently and still trying to get down far / i dont have a squat rack so i cant do heavy weight yet )
dead lifts
calf raises
reverse sit ups
bicycle sit up things
plank for abs

Then on wednesday i do the same upper workout, thursday the same lower workout etc, the only day i take off from everything is sunday. Over the past few months i have added a bunch of exercises and am planning on adding some more ( pull ups lol :D ) when i get back from bow hunting.

** Your workout looks pretty ok - I'd recommend a M/Th Upper body, Tue/Fri lower body with Wed being cardio and abs and saturday being cardio and abs. Longer cardio - is also good for you. Also - try to work the big musces to the smaller muscles. For example - Chest, shoulders, back, bis, tris.....not Shoulders, bis, back, etc. Remember that unless you have chicken legs or something you use your lower body in cardio and to move around every day your leg day should have one purpose - build strength or build endurance. For strength - lift more than you think you can as many times as you can. For endurance - lift less more times than any human wants to. Either way a good leg day results in puking ;)

My diet is not super picky yet, i eat a bowl of decent cereal in the morning, then i drink 2 carnation instant breakfasts for a bit of protein / some vitamins after my workout. Lunch is kind of weird for me, sometimes i dont eat because im busy and i just forget or ill eat a small granola bar or maybe a full on whole grain turkey sandwich. For dinner ill just have what we are eating at home in reasonable proportions, id say i still eat out at least once a week as well but the portions are reasonable.

No soda, i drink water all day every day and recently id say i do drink some alcohol once or twice a week, not normally beer though.

** Clean up your food - really that's 80% of your game!**

So finally a few questions i have i guess. First im assuming im not going to really put on muscle unless i start eating alot more / gaining fat again? Does the 24% of body fat i still have help me put on more muscle in any way or should i keep doing what im doing until all the fat is gone and then i can start bulking?

**When trying to lose weight - lose the weight you want to lose then switch your focus. You won't lose all your muscle getting thinner if you're lifting and eating. You must lift. You must eat. You must hydrate. You must sleep. When you get lean you'll surprise yourself.

By adding new compound exercises do you think i have been shocking my muscles or do i need to find different lifts that work the same muscles at this point? I have seen some improvement in the amount i can lift but i have nothing to base how good my improvements are.

** Changing up your moves every week or two is good. Body's plateau. That's not fun or effective. Shock it...switch your days, switch your moves, add plyometrics...keep shocking it. Your body likes that.

Lastly i just recently bought one of those nice scales, does body weight, BMI, fat percentage, water percentage and a few other things i believe. How can i use the scales functions to determine if i am losing fat or lean body mass? Is it possible?

**Kinda....but not really. In my experience those things are really just a fancy way to tell women they are fat (that's wht it told me and it was right not too long ago). Use the scale but use your strength, your moving up in weights, your longer easier cardio and your clothes. Get to where you feel happy...then re-evaluate the goal. In this game the goal is never achieved...if 11% bodyfat is your goal you'll get there but then you'll be too small so your new goal is to add 10 pounds of muscle...then get back to 8% body fat...goals and focuses should change and your diet and gym activity (and extracurrricular activities) need to change to match your goal....every goal has different requirements.

omg i'm stopping now

Thanks for any help you can give me guys and thanks for reading my long ass post lol.

[highpsi03]

took no explode today. not impressed at all. 45 mins after taking it I was shaky and extremely tired, the complete opposite of what its supposed to do.

[(( LO LO ))]

First off, what's up man!!!! Miss you down here in CO....

Never heard of the stuff before, but I searched around the internet and it has got really good reviews. Seems similar to MassPump that I use http://www.saveonsupplements.com/masspump.html
http://www.blackdiamondsupplements.com/product_images/z/318/mass_pump__85081_std.gif

LoLo, you ever tried MassPump? Just wondering how is compared to the Jack3rd. I may have to try this Jack3d out as I know you have been into fitness even longer than me.

What's up Nate! Good to hear from ya brotha. Miss everyone in Colorado too. I have never tried MassPump, so I am unable to compare. Jack3d is simply ridiculous. All the guys in my Recruiter office are on it due to the insane results and transformation I have gone through taking it over the past 3 months. I have dropped 15 pounds, and put on about 10 pounds of lean muscle. My bench has increased by 80lbs, due to Jack3d allowing me to knock out more reps with heavier sets. I am curling 45lb plates like they are made out of styrofoam! My run times have dropped from a 14:30 2 mile to a 12:10 2 mile, all since I have been taking Jack3d! Proper rest, diet, and protein/vitamins are necessary for recovery of course... Don't forget plenty of H2O~

[Sleev]

This thread made me hungry...

[Survivalism]

TJolt may be able to help you out here more since I have always been the opposite and skinny and trying to put on muscle; which consisted of me gaining weight/fat to get the muscle, then leaning it out.

My guess here is to keep doing what you are doing and continue the weight loss to reduce your body fat; my guess is you have the muscle under there; it is just being hidden under your current body fat. I bet when you lean that all out you will have the muscle that you want. Then when you get to the body fat you want to be and decide you want more muscle, follow what has been said in this thread . Be sure to change up your workouts though so you don’t plateau. Sounds like you are making good progress to me if you have lost over 50 pounds in five months……

Sorry never used one of those scales...actually I have never measured my body fat.

Thanks for the response!!


First - welcome to the gymrat club :loop: I'm going to put my responses inside your post - hope it doesn't get weird looking...

Thanks for the great response! Some answers to your questions,

I am about 5 foot 8, overall kind of short i guess lol. Ive got wide shoulders and a big frame though.

Cardio is pretty intense, id say heart rate is 140+ easy, probably more like 150-160, as i have been going instead of increasing time on the bike i have been increasing my speed and intensity to make sure i kept my heart rate nice and high, im assuming this is what your talking about right?

Should i switch my work out days after i get to my ideal fat percent? Or do you think doing hour long cardio 2 times a week would burn as much fat as doing 30 minute cardio 6 times a week? Ill re-arrange the exercises for sure though, that makes a lot of sense.

My diet pretty much has to be compatible with my mom and her boyfriend at this point, over time i think i can help clean it up though for sure. Is their a way you could give me an idea of what i could eat for breakfast lunch and dinner / i guess snacks? Nothing too detailed needed, i have little knowledge about this part of the game though and i know its one of the most important.

With the way i have been lifting on week one 1 i will start with chest but on week 2 i start with legs, i imagine the body will still get used to this routine? Im going to have to look up some other lifts to change things up for a bit, ive been doing alot of those lifts in the pattern above for most of the time i have been lifting.

For the first 4 months probably i did not weigh myself at all, i didnt think i was losing weight until i put on my motorcycle jacket and had to re-adjust the waist. The only reason im weighing myself now is i started logging all my lifts with weight and reps ( finally! ) and figured i mind as well add my weight to it.

Hope you can match these up with your responses, and seriously thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions so thoroughly

[bulldog]

What's up Nate! Good to hear from ya brotha. Miss everyone in Colorado too. I have never tried MassPump, so I am unable to compare. Jack3d is simply ridiculous. All the guys in my Recruiter office are on it due to the insane results and transformation I have gone through taking it over the past 3 months. I have dropped 15 pounds, and put on about 10 pounds of lean muscle. My bench has increased by 80lbs, due to Jack3d allowing me to knock out more reps with heavier sets. I am curling 45lb plates like they are made out of styrofoam! My run times have dropped from a 14:30 2 mile to a 12:10 2 mile, all since I have been taking Jack3d! Proper rest, diet, and protein/vitamins are necessary for recovery of course... Don't forget plenty of H2O~
I read reviews all night of this stuff and all were postive and seems like the best pre-workout drink out there....so I ordered it! Thanks man, I'll let you know how I like it.

Dang man, you were already huge a few years ago, so I can't imagine what you look like now. Funny you are probably one of the few people that saw me in high school when I was maybe 120 pounds and never worked out......LoLo was always that cool buff jock guy on the football team and I was the skinny guy wearing baggy clothes to hide that I had no muscle tone at all! :lol:

[dragos13]

I read reviews all night of this stuff and all were postive and seems like the best pre-workout drink out there....so I ordered it! Thanks man, I'll let you know how I like it.

Dang man, you were already huge a few years ago, so I can't imagine what you look like now. Funny you are probably one of the few people that saw me in high school when I was maybe 120 pounds and never worked out......LoLo was always that cool buff jock guy on the football team and I was the skinny guy wearing baggy clothes to hide that I had no muscle tone at all! :lol:

That definitely looks like a good Nitric Oxide preworkout mix. Let me know how it works for you as it will most likely be my next purchase :)

[bulldog]

That definitely looks like a good Nitric Oxide preworkout mix. Let me know how it works for you as it will most likely be my next purchase :) Cool, I will. I am a believer in pre-workout drinks to get you up and going; I sit at a desk all day and need a jolt of energy to get me in the gym. MassPump really changed my workouts and gives me that extra focus and energy to do a few more sets, so I am excited about this Jack3d :D

Just look at the reviews this Jack3d is getting; 126 five start ratings and this is just Amazon. People on Bodybuilding.com were raving about this stuff.
http://www.amazon.com/Jack3d-Lemon-Lime-8-8-250-grams/dp/B001USN5CG

[cdbouncer]

I am about 5 foot 8, overall kind of short i guess lol. Ive got wide shoulders and a big frame though.

** ok then still working on losing fat at 5'8" is reasonable. It really depends on your goals. I've never recommended this before to anybody but one consult/workout with a trainer might be worth your money. They can see you, talk to you, find out your goals and point you in the right direction better than any random person on the internet can. All the information in the world isn't as good as somebody who knows what they are talking about - face to face.

Cardio is pretty intense, id say heart rate is 140+ easy, probably more like 150-160, as i have been going instead of increasing time on the bike i have been increasing my speed and intensity to make sure i kept my heart rate nice and high, im assuming this is what your talking about right?

**Yes and no. Interval training is something that I hate and love all at the same time. Interval cardio is difficult to explain - google it. They'll do a better job. I always scare people when I explain it....and it's not scary.

Should i switch my work out days after i get to my ideal fat percent? Or do you think doing hour long cardio 2 times a week would burn as much fat as doing 30 minute cardio 6 times a week? Ill re-arrange the exercises for sure though, that makes a lot of sense.

**I'd say don't stop your 30 min daily caridio - that's a good warm up for lifting. But personally my body needed two days when I didn't lift and I used those days for longer cardio to increase my endurance and abs. From my experience I switched things up with I got bored or when I stopped improving. You should be able to go up in weight or reps weekly if if you're lifting hard every week. If you haven't increased your shoulder press in 6 weeks....stop doing it for a few weeks - do something else. Then add it back in a few weeks later....etc.


My diet pretty much has to be compatible with my mom and her boyfriend at this point, over time i think i can help clean it up though for sure. Is their a way you could give me an idea of what i could eat for breakfast lunch and dinner / i guess snacks? Nothing too detailed needed, i have little knowledge about this part of the game though and i know its one of the most important.

** Bfast - 6 eggwhites w/3 yolks, 1 cup oats, 1 apple
**10am - isopure protein shake (or whatever protein you like)
**Lunch - at least 4oz of lean protein w/ veggies and some complex carb
**3pm - protein bar - seriously like pure protein not granola
**Dinner - at least 4oz of lean protein ..blah blah
**7pm - protein shot w/ an apple

That's super simple and easy for almost anybody to accomplish. When I trained I liked to try to make every time I put something in my body something I made (real food) but that's just not feasible or reasonable for many people so protein shakes and bars are good but limit it to 3 of your 6-8 meals per day. When I say meal I mean meal but little portioned meals. If you make a whole turkey sandwich with veggies on ww bread...cut it in half and eat it 2 hours apart.

With the way i have been lifting on week one 1 i will start with chest but on week 2 i start with legs, i imagine the body will still get used to this routine? Im going to have to look up some other lifts to change things up for a bit, ive been doing alot of those lifts in the pattern above for most of the time i have been lifting.

**Go to borders and curl up with the encyclopedia of bodybuilding. It's Arnold S and it's OLD but it's got some good old school moves that work and their mechanics behind them...AND it'll teach you what muscles should be working while you do the move. Then buy the book...:) Your body will always get bored with what you do if you repeat it enough. Add some box jumps on a upper body day or squat thrusts (they have a new name I think) on lower body day to add to the mix.....mixing it up will keep your body ready for change.

For the first 4 months probably i did not weigh myself at all, i didnt think i was losing weight until i put on my motorcycle jacket and had to re-adjust the waist. The only reason im weighing myself now is i started logging all my lifts with weight and reps ( finally! ) and figured i mind as well add my weight to it.

**Congrats - track EVERYTHING. What did you lift, how many times, how many sets. This allows you to understand what your workouts look like and how you're moving along...and gives that trainer something to look at and give you feedback on. One consult with a trainer is never a bad thing. I've never worked with one myself but I've known plenty who have ripped my workout apart or whatever...

Hope you can match these up with your responses, and seriously thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions so thoroughly

[dragos13]

Cool, I will. I am a believer in pre-workout drinks to get you up and going; I sit at a desk all day and need a jolt of energy to get me in the gym. MassPump really changed my workouts and gives me that extra focus and energy to do a few more sets, so I am excited about this Jack3d :D

Just look at the reviews this Jack3d is getting; 126 five start ratings and this is just Amazon. People on Bodybuilding.com were raving about this stuff.
http://www.amazon.com/Jack3d-Lemon-Lime-8-8-250-grams/dp/B001USN5CG

Yeah I've been reading the bodybuilding.com site. Sounds like great stuff. I know the GNC Nitric Oxide I currently take makes a huge difference on getting up and going. I do the same thing, sit at a desk all day. The caffeine alone helps get me moving then the pump helps me push harder at the gym.

This is the first time I have started training with a pre-workout drink and I won't do it ever again without one lol. I probably have 20 days left on my GNC stuff then I'll be getting the Jack3d also :)

[Survivalism]

I am about 5 foot 8, overall kind of short i guess lol. Ive got wide shoulders and a big frame though.

** ok then still working on losing fat at 5'8" is reasonable. It really depends on your goals. I've never recommended this before to anybody but one consult/workout with a trainer might be worth your money. They can see you, talk to you, find out your goals and point you in the right direction better than any random person on the internet can. All the information in the world isn't as good as somebody who knows what they are talking about - face to face.

Cardio is pretty intense, id say heart rate is 140+ easy, probably more like 150-160, as i have been going instead of increasing time on the bike i have been increasing my speed and intensity to make sure i kept my heart rate nice and high, im assuming this is what your talking about right?

**Yes and no. Interval training is something that I hate and love all at the same time. Interval cardio is difficult to explain - google it. They'll do a better job. I always scare people when I explain it....and it's not scary.

Should i switch my work out days after i get to my ideal fat percent? Or do you think doing hour long cardio 2 times a week would burn as much fat as doing 30 minute cardio 6 times a week? Ill re-arrange the exercises for sure though, that makes a lot of sense.

**I'd say don't stop your 30 min daily caridio - that's a good warm up for lifting. But personally my body needed two days when I didn't lift and I used those days for longer cardio to increase my endurance and abs. From my experience I switched things up with I got bored or when I stopped improving. You should be able to go up in weight or reps weekly if if you're lifting hard every week. If you haven't increased your shoulder press in 6 weeks....stop doing it for a few weeks - do something else. Then add it back in a few weeks later....etc.


My diet pretty much has to be compatible with my mom and her boyfriend at this point, over time i think i can help clean it up though for sure. Is their a way you could give me an idea of what i could eat for breakfast lunch and dinner / i guess snacks? Nothing too detailed needed, i have little knowledge about this part of the game though and i know its one of the most important.

** Bfast - 6 eggwhites w/3 yolks, 1 cup oats, 1 apple
**10am - isopure protein shake (or whatever protein you like)
**Lunch - at least 4oz of lean protein w/ veggies and some complex carb
**3pm - protein bar - seriously like pure protein not granola
**Dinner - at least 4oz of lean protein ..blah blah
**7pm - protein shot w/ an apple

That's super simple and easy for almost anybody to accomplish. When I trained I liked to try to make every time I put something in my body something I made (real food) but that's just not feasible or reasonable for many people so protein shakes and bars are good but limit it to 3 of your 6-8 meals per day. When I say meal I mean meal but little portioned meals. If you make a whole turkey sandwich with veggies on ww bread...cut it in half and eat it 2 hours apart.

With the way i have been lifting on week one 1 i will start with chest but on week 2 i start with legs, i imagine the body will still get used to this routine? Im going to have to look up some other lifts to change things up for a bit, ive been doing alot of those lifts in the pattern above for most of the time i have been lifting.

**Go to borders and curl up with the encyclopedia of bodybuilding. It's Arnold S and it's OLD but it's got some good old school moves that work and their mechanics behind them...AND it'll teach you what muscles should be working while you do the move. Then buy the book...:) Your body will always get bored with what you do if you repeat it enough. Add some box jumps on a upper body day or squat thrusts (they have a new name I think) on lower body day to add to the mix.....mixing it up will keep your body ready for change.

For the first 4 months probably i did not weigh myself at all, i didnt think i was losing weight until i put on my motorcycle jacket and had to re-adjust the waist. The only reason im weighing myself now is i started logging all my lifts with weight and reps ( finally! ) and figured i mind as well add my weight to it.

**Congrats - track EVERYTHING. What did you lift, how many times, how many sets. This allows you to understand what your workouts look like and how you're moving along...and gives that trainer something to look at and give you feedback on. One consult with a trainer is never a bad thing. I've never worked with one myself but I've known plenty who have ripped my workout apart or whatever...

Hope you can match these up with your responses, and seriously thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions so thoroughly

Thanks so much for the great replies, means a lot to me. I am seriously thinking about seeing a trainer and getting my work out and stuff tweaked, makes a lot of sense that they would likely know what would work best for me after seeing / meeting me.

Will work on my diet in the upcoming months, i imagine it will make quite a big difference.

Thanks again!!

[highpsi03]

Thanks so much for the great replies, means a lot to me. I am seriously thinking about seeing a trainer and getting my work out and stuff tweaked, makes a lot of sense that they would likely know what would work best for me after seeing / meeting me.

Will work on my diet in the upcoming months, i imagine it will make quite a big difference.

Thanks again!!
Where do you live at? maybe we can meet up to work out since we both seem to be in the same boat.

[dapper]

Wow.

There's some un-useful and useful information in here.

Qualities of protein have varied over the years. Just to say Whey protein, doesn't really describe if it's the peptide level, (pre-digested).

It appears some people might have consumed more than Lance Armstrong during his peak training periods. Every body is different, but many people consume WAY to many proteins and not enough fruits or veggies.

I never knew so many CSC people worked out similar to competition bodybuilders. Hopefully, those of you are having your blood tested and consulting with a nutrition orientated practitioner.

Working out properly, we can stimulate our HGH. It's up to us to avoid sugar for two hours after we exercise to receive the benefits. Nate's correct, consuming protein directly after a workout is better than waiting 1 hour later. Eating protein within 2 hours is still better than a snickers bar...

Our meals should always have fat, protein and carbs. Coconut oil is a wonderful source of MCT / healthy fat. If your allergic to coconut oil, olive oil is tasty too.

I prefer to workout the upper body 1 day, then 1 day of rest, and 1 day of recovery before working the same body parts. Alternating heavy and light workouts every other time. When I say heavy, this refers to exhaustion by muscle fatigue with light weights for 2 sets and up to 50 reps per set. A light day could be half of the heavy day.

Studies have shown it's about muscle fatigue. Muscle fatigue can occur with low reps or high reps. I find the high reps are safer with better form during the workout. Tiger Woods also uses a weight that's safe to do 50 reps with, 1 rep per mistress. ;)

Stretching before and after the workout goes a long way too.

The next 9Health Fair link (http://www.9healthfair.org/find/find.aspx)
11/06-07
8:00AM - 1:00PM

For $30, the Blood Chemistry Screening is cheaper than seeing a doctor. Plus, registering online, the results can be emailed to ya.

Oh, I know most of us remember the main purpose of going to the gym. The socializing with others, especially those we're attracted too. :D

On this end, I bid you all a due, it's time to head to the gym.

[(( LO LO ))]

I read reviews all night of this stuff and all were postive and seems like the best pre-workout drink out there....so I ordered it! Thanks man, I'll let you know how I like it.

Dang man, you were already huge a few years ago, so I can't imagine what you look like now. Funny you are probably one of the few people that saw me in high school when I was maybe 120 pounds and never worked out......LoLo was always that cool buff jock guy on the football team and I was the skinny guy wearing baggy clothes to hide that I had no muscle tone at all! :lol:


Your crazy man, I wasn't that big! LOL Your the fitness guru now! Thanks for the props though, you made me feel special man:cheers:.

But on the real, Jack3d really allowed me to step up my game. And it's only like $29 a container, which lasts a month! I only take a little over 1 scoop with water 30 minutes before my workout. The scoop is tiny btw...

[Survivalism]

Where do you live at? maybe we can meet up to work out since we both seem to be in the same boat.

Hey man, i live in SE Aurora but i am currently working out with my moms boyfriend at our house, when i start to really put muscle on i think im going to sign up for a gym though.

[highpsi03]

get a free 7 day pass to 24 hr on chambers and alameda and lets work out. im just starting out too

[Survivalism]

get a free 7 day pass to 24 hr on chambers and alameda and lets work out. im just starting out too

If i was working out alone i would totally take you up but my moms boyfriend and i have both spent money picking up some equipment and we have been lifting together for like 5 months now. If the time comes that i no longer lift with him i sure as hell will be looking for a partner though. Sorry man

[Survivalism]

Tried some HIIT today, 30 seconds intense with 1 minute rest for about 24 minutes ( 6 minute warm up )

Ended up doing the same distance according to the bike, overall i really like it. Time goes by MUCH quicker doing HIIT then just putting along at a constant speed. Overall i like it a lot and im gonna continue to do it.

No problems doing 30 seconds 98% intensity with 1 minute at probably 20% intensity right? By the last 30 second string i was pooped, worked out pretty much perfectly.

Thanks!

[dragos13]

Wow.

There's some un-useful and useful information in here.

Qualities of protein have varied over the years. Just to say Whey protein, doesn't really describe if it's the peptide level, (pre-digested).

It appears some people might have consumed more than Lance Armstrong during his peak training periods. Every body is different, but many people consume WAY to many proteins and not enough fruits or veggies.

I never knew so many CSC people worked out similar to competition bodybuilders. Hopefully, those of you are having your blood tested and consulting with a nutrition orientated practitioner.

Working out properly, we can stimulate our HGH. It's up to us to avoid sugar for two hours after we exercise to receive the benefits. Nate's correct, consuming protein directly after a workout is better than waiting 1 hour later. Eating protein within 2 hours is still better than a snickers bar...

Our meals should always have fat, protein and carbs. Coconut oil is a wonderful source of MCT / healthy fat. If your allergic to coconut oil, olive oil is tasty too.

I prefer to workout the upper body 1 day, then 1 day of rest, and 1 day of recovery before working the same body parts. Alternating heavy and light workouts every other time. When I say heavy, this refers to exhaustion by muscle fatigue with light weights for 2 sets and up to 50 reps per set. A light day could be half of the heavy day.

Studies have shown it's about muscle fatigue. Muscle fatigue can occur with low reps or high reps. I find the high reps are safer with better form during the workout. Tiger Woods also uses a weight that's safe to do 50 reps with, 1 rep per mistress. ;)

Stretching before and after the workout goes a long way too.

The next 9Health Fair link (http://www.9healthfair.org/find/find.aspx)
11/06-07
8:00AM - 1:00PM

For $30, the Blood Chemistry Screening is cheaper than seeing a doctor. Plus, registering online, the results can be emailed to ya.

Oh, I know most of us remember the main purpose of going to the gym. The socializing with others, especially those we're attracted too. :D

On this end, I bid you all a due, it's time to head to the gym.

How much protein would you suggest for someone who is around 160lbs looking at gaining muscle? I hit the gym about 1.5hrs every day with lots of compound excersizes. Currently I'm taking a Nitric Oxide preworkout and Whey protein post. Most of my protein is from shakes or protein bars.

Also, do you have an opinion on creatine? Mainly mono vs hyrdo?

[bulldog]

How much protein would you suggest for someone who is around 160lbs looking at gaining muscle? I hit the gym about 1.5hrs every day with lots of compound excersizes. Currently I'm taking a Nitric Oxide preworkout and Whey protein post. Most of my protein is from shakes or protein bars.

Also, do you have an opinion on creatine? Mainly mono vs hyrdo? I would say 240-320 grams, but I am sure Dapper disagrees since he seems to be against so much protein intake. I've never known many people to gain muscle mass without a lot of protein though; it is essential.

[cdbouncer]

I'll agree with that - however you should try to get at least half of your protein intake from real food. When I trained I tried to get 1.5x's my body weight in protein when I was trying to build muscle. I personally had better results and felt better when I was able to pull at least half of my protein through lean meats, eggs, cottage cheese, etc.


I would say 240-320 grams, but I am sure Dapper disagrees since he seems to be against so much protein intake. I've never known many people to gain muscle mass without a lot of protein though; it is essential.

[bulldog]

I prefer to workout the upper body 1 day, then 1 day of rest, and 1 day of recovery before working the same body parts. Alternating heavy and light workouts every other time. When I say heavy, this refers to exhaustion by muscle fatigue with light weights for 2 sets and up to 50 reps per set. A light day could be half of the heavy day.

Studies have shown it's about muscle fatigue. Muscle fatigue can occur with low reps or high reps. I find the high reps are safer with better form during the workout.
If this were the case wouldn’t we see all these huge bodybuilders in the gym sitting there curling 20 pound dumbbells hundreds of times instead of the massive weights they train with? Where I agree that muscle fatigue from high reps and low weight has its advantages (and should be done periodically), you still need to lift to the point of struggling to really gain the huge muscle mass that many people are looking for. Heavy weight and struggling trigger the muscles that get big. I think your training is more geared towards the Lance Armstrong lean body rather than the Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson look of huge lean muscle mass….


I'll agree with that - however you should try to get at least half of your protein intake from real food. When I trained I tried to get 1.5x's my body weight in protein when I was trying to build muscle. I personally had better results and felt better when I was able to pull at least half of my protein through lean meats, eggs, cottage cheese, etc. Agreed, protein from food is better, but much harder to stick with because of price and conveneince. Think of it this way; an 3.5 oz chicken breast has about 30 grams of protein. To get the low end of 240 grams per day would equal to 8 chicken breast and to get the high end of 320 grams would be around 10.6 chick breasts. That is alot of cooking, chewing, and money per day.

Eggs = 6 grams protein per egg. Only about 53 eggs per day
Cottage cheese = 15 grams per 1/2 cup. 10.6 cups to equal 320 grams :puke:

[cdbouncer]

I agree! Believe me I wished for a protein injection into apples the entire time I trained. I was just saying that from my experience when I was able to get at least half of my protein from real food my body responded better. I still - to this day struggle with chicken, eggs, cottage cheese, salmon....gah I'd rather be vegan than eat those foods sometimes. BUT - the cash I spent on supplements (quality ones) almost equals the cash I spent on food. The amount of time it takes to prepare and eat sucks...but sometimes the effort is worth it.




Agreed, protein from food is better, but much harder to stick with because of price and conveneince. Think of it this way; an 3.5 oz chicken breast has about 30 grams of protein. To get the low end of 240 grams per day would equal to 8 chicken breast and to get the high end of 320 grams would be around 10.6 chick breasts. That is alot of cooking, chewing, and money per day.

Eggs = 6 grams protein per egg. Only about 53 eggs per day
Cottage cheese = 15 grams per 1/2 cup. 10.6 cups to equal 320 grams :puke:

[dragos13]

Yeah its definitely hard to get enough protein from foods. Even with my shakes, I'm probably only at 150g per day.

1 protein bar = 15g
Muscle Milk = 22g
Whey shake = 40g
1 protein bar = 15g

So thats about 90g protein. Add in normal lunch and dinner (20g and 30g) and I still have a lot to make up.

I think I will double my whey shakes and start eating more eggs for breakfast. I'm definitely going to shoot for a 50/50 mix of protein intake (food vs supplement).

Thanks again guys. This thread has turned out some really good info :)

[t_jolt]

Yeah its definitely hard to get enough protein from foods. Even with my shakes, I'm probably only at 150g per day.

1 protein bar = 15g
Muscle Milk = 22g
Whey shake = 40g
1 protein bar = 15g

So thats about 90g protein. Add in normal lunch and dinner (20g and 30g) and I still have a lot to make up.

I think I will double my whey shakes and start eating more eggs for breakfast. I'm definitely going to shoot for a 50/50 mix of protein intake (food vs supplement).

Thanks again guys. This thread has turned out some really good info :)

Careful about judging that 40g of protein as a full 40. Remember Whey is only good for about 30 min in your system. And your body can only absorb 55-65 grams in three hours, so i would really say your probably only getting 25-30 grams with that shake.

As i was reading the biggest thing is that 1 gram per body weight will do. But you have to get your diet correct to work with your body. Hence why some guys have to put double the protein when bulking. Try to position protein intake when it works best for the body. :)

[bulldog]

Careful about judging that 40g of protein as a full 40. Remember Whey is only good for about 30 min in your system. And your body can only absorb 55-65 grams in three hours, so i would really say your probably only getting 25-30 grams with that shake.

As i was reading the biggest thing is that 1 gram per body weight will do. But you have to get your diet correct to work with your body. Hence why some guys have to put double the protein when bulking. Try to position protein intake when it works best for the body. :) Even this has been debated for years though. Not syaing they are correct, but different people find different results

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/randy11.htm

http://www.tomvenuto.com/asktom/protein_grams_per_meal.shtml

http://www.intense-workout.com/protein_per_day.html

http://www.musclehack.com/how-much-protein-is-needed-to-build-muscle/

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=320539

[t_jolt]

Even this has been debated for years though. Not syaing they are correct, but different people find different results

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/randy11.htm

http://www.tomvenuto.com/asktom/protein_grams_per_meal.shtml

http://www.intense-workout.com/protein_per_day.html

http://www.musclehack.com/how-much-protein-is-needed-to-build-muscle/

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=320539


No absolutely, And the worst part is that its different to every single person... but its a good rule of thumb for beginners. Cause everyone is different, they all have to do what works best for them. But that takes time and dedication to figure out what is best for them. Anyway Nate after things calm down here in a couple weeks, will have to hit the gym up together.

Tyrel

[bulldog]

No absolutely, And the worst part is that its different to every single person... but its a good rule of thumb for beginners. Cause everyone is different, they all have to do what works best for them. But that takes time and dedication to figure out what is best for them. Anyway Nate after things calm down here in a couple weeks, will have to hit the gym up together.

Tyrel For sure, just let me know when you can :)

[dragos13]

So my next question is about cutting vs bulking.

I have spent this last month trying to pack on the pounds. After weighing myself this morning (1 month after starting workout) I have gained about 8-9 lbs. Right now I am eating lots of protein and taking high calories. Also working heavy weights with less reps to "bulk" up.

I'm going to continue this for another month, and see if I can add another 8-9lbs. I just started Creatine Hydrochloride as well. After this next month, I want to work on cutting down body fat without loosing much muscle.

I understand this will be done using lighter weights/more reps. I also will need to step up my cardio (currently doing 30min each day and plan to double that for my cutting phase). I guess I'm just really curious about diet. Should I lower my protein intake? I'm going to cycle off of my creatine for a month, and take that time to work on cutting body fat. I want to have lean cut muscles and a good six-pack.

Does this sound right? Bulk for 60 days then cut for 30? I will probably continue that cycle if everything works. This will allow me to take 30 days off every two months from creatine also. Would it be good to just reduce my supplement protein? Reduce carbs?

Any tips and advice would be great. Thanks in advance!

[PROFLYER]

I like monster pump pre and Myozene post. Myozene is the best post available, its a perfect blend of everything. Your pre and post is not as important as your daily eating habits though. I won't go into it, but when i did the CO show in July I had a very specific diet for over a year, and a very specific cut diet 9 weeks out. Cut the myozene and the monster pump 9 weeks out, just good clean food and a fat burner (off the shelf). Its a lifestyle change, not a diet...

[PROFLYER]

And you don't need to bulk/cut. I can stay at 10% bf and bulk year round. Show day I was 4%, you CAN NOT hold anything less then about 7% year round without losing muscle. Do yourself a favor, cut. The 9lbs in a month you've gained are about 7lbs of fat/water. A pro class body builder can only gain 1-1.5lbs of lean PURE LEAN mass a month. No body cares what they weigh, if they look great! Focus on getting lean, you'll be surprised how "big" you look lean. I came in at 178lbs and got 2nd in the light heavyweight. Most people look at my pics and think I weigh 220...

[dragos13]

So what do you suggest to focus on to get lean? Should I lower my weight and increase reps now? I still want to put on about 20 more lbs and want it to be muscle. Before, I wasn't gaining any weight and just looking more lean. I don't want to put on a bunch of fat in order to gain muscle mass either but would do it if necessary lol.

[dragos13]

I guess I'm having a hard time thinking I only put 1-2 pounds muscle and 7-8 pounds of water/fat. I know my gut got bigger (water and fat) but my chest and arms are bigger also. I would guess maybe 3-4lbs muscle, 3-4lbs water and 1-2lbs fat. I'm no professional but looking at pics of myself from one month ago compared to know shows I have done something right.

[R1NORI]

Try Cell Tech by muscle tech
It will give you alot of size and strength
As far a getting ripped or lean nothing beats old fashioned cardio
I would use the cell-tech and just weight train through Dec
and then start cardio first of the year
If you are trying to put on size or weight right now, any cardio will negate that process!

[cdbouncer]

Go get tested for BF %. Bring a pic of you where you like to live body fat wise and have them estimate it based on that. Then you have a baseline.

Patience is the key here. I get that you want to put on some mass -- the leaner you want to stay in the process the longer it takes. But in the long run cutting takes up the rest of the time anyway so you can stay lean and build mass slowly or you can not worry too much about leanness and eat like a monster and lift like a monster and build it faster then have to spend the time and energy to cut longer. Get a baseline - figure out where you want to go. Do what you've been doing for another month and get a 2nd measurement so you KNOW what you're doing. If you're loading up on the supplements...chances are lots of your weight on the scale changes are water. That's just simple fact. If you spent 1 week off the supplements, on a clean diet, on your same workout....bet you drop most of what you put on that isn't mass. I haven't seen you but I've seen this happen...so much of what you're doing needs to be based on fact really. Go get your BF tested. Do your thing 1 more month. Get tested again. You can then say you've gained 11 pounds of total weight but 4 of them we muscle. Then you've got 7 pounds of water/fat to cut from just that month's worth of work. Then you can experiment - is 3# of that water from your creatine, etc? Is all 7# water? etc.


I guess I'm having a hard time thinking I only put 1-2 pounds muscle and 7-8 pounds of water/fat. I know my gut got bigger (water and fat) but my chest and arms are bigger also. I would guess maybe 3-4lbs muscle, 3-4lbs water and 1-2lbs fat. I'm no professional but looking at pics of myself from one month ago compared to know shows I have done something right.

[R1NORI]

Remember that muscle weighs more than fat.
Again you will gain a lot of water weight at first as your body adjusts
Lean muscle mass burns plenty of fat,actually better than cardio.
Just eat right and train.
Once you start to incorporate cardio you will burn lean muscle.
Don't get to wrapped up in all the mumbo jumbo
Just keep training
put on some muscle and up your cardio closer to race season and you will be fine!
lean= burn more than you earn
size = earn more than you burn
lean and mean= you get what you get!

[bulldog]

I hope Scer is reading this, because he always teased my big gut during my gaining months, and never seemed to believe me when I told him you have to gain massive weight then lean it out :lol: I went to about 190-195 and when I leaned it all out I went all the way down to 175; so yeah you do lose alot of fat/water weight. Like said though, it is funny because I got more comments on looking bigger when I was 175 and lean than when I was at 190. The leanness with the added muscle really gives the illusion of being bigger than you actually are; maybe it is the contrast from small waist to large upper body.

If you really want to gain go buy Halotren like Puckster and I said; you will gain 10-15 pounds in a month with proper training and diet.

[bulldog]

And you don't need to bulk/cut. I can stay at 10% bf and bulk year round. Show day I was 4%, you CAN NOT hold anything less then about 7% year round without losing muscle. Do yourself a favor, cut. The 9lbs in a month you've gained are about 7lbs of fat/water. A pro class body builder can only gain 1-1.5lbs of lean PURE LEAN mass a month. No body cares what they weigh, if they look great! Focus on getting lean, you'll be surprised how "big" you look lean. I came in at 178lbs and got 2nd in the light heavyweight. Most people look at my pics and think I weigh 220...
So do you still do cardio all year long then? I am at the point where I have already gained and leaned, but if I stop the cardio my abs go away pretty quick. Yet I don't want to do too much cardio that I am eating muscle. It is such a hard tradeoff, so I am always curious what others do and think.

Currently I only do 15 minutes of cardio after a 1-1 /12 hour intense weight session three times a week; then the P90X ab program and a nice fast paced walk with the dog after; three days a week (only one day rest a week). I never know when I am doing too much cardio to burn muscle, but enough to stay lean.

[cdbouncer]

Ah- this is where the game wins with me. I got lean then felt too small so I added mass and felt too puffy so I got lean then was too small....so I quit. Thus why I prefaced all of my comments in this thread with - I don't play the game anymore.

People that I associate with that are still in the game are doing what I did and they can handle it. One example of a friend of mine who got to the mass level that he wanted and the lean % he wanted 5 years ago...has maintained this level for 5 years. He goes through short phases where his diet isn't as clean and he gains some bf...then decideds to lose it again and loses the fat. I think he's been tested quarterly for 5 years and with diet and workouts alone has maintained within 5# his muscle mass number. He says the first 5 months of maintaining were the hardest as he learned what his body needed to maintain. Now he just knows what he needs. He's 45 years old now, 6'2", 210# and about 6% bf year around. This is the part of the game I couldn't hack. Other people I know do the get big and rounder then smaller and leaner then big and rounder and smaller and leaner....this is just their cycle. They like the different styles of training and eating so they just mix it up. Some get more and more mass each time they cycle through and some just stay the same just do the bulk/cut cycles with no real change...every June they look the same, every Dec they look the same. Its what they like, how they're comfortable and what they allow for different lifestyles, training styles and eating styles.

Once you get to be the person you want in the mirror - learn what your body needs to be that person today, next week, next month. If you are one of those people who put on 20# of muscle and leaned up ....then decides that you want 20# of muscle then you'll probably need to do what the bulk/cut cycle friends of mine do....it's really what you want to be. '

Sounds like a bunch of jabber I guess....

If you're 5'10 and 190 and 6% bf and you want to stay there you need to learn what your body needs to stay there. Every single person has different requirements for this and you need to pay attention to yourself to figure that out. As far as I can tell - and see from my friend who's done it...that's the bottom line.

[bulldog]

Yup that is me, I go through this cycle all the time where I get bigger than lean it out, then decide I want to be bigger and it starts again :lol: Just sucks because when I am lean, I want to gain more muscle mass, but when I am bigger I don't like my abs.

This was me at about 190 after my "gaining" period; 5,000 calories a day, no cardio
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/bulldog420/MePriortoLeaning-out.jpg

After leaning out at about 175; about six months ago. (sorry for the mean face :lol:)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/bulldog420/DSC02978resize.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/bulldog420/DSC02961resize.jpg

I don't have current pics, but similar, just have abs now and more lean

[cdbouncer]

Let me just say that not only are you typical and normal in this game from my experience but that you are successfull - not many can say that more than once. So many can get through one cut....and then can never get back there. Good for you! (now gonna go crawl in the corner and wish it were me)

[PROFLYER]

I'm not reading the replies of everyone, just read your question and yes, if you're adding fat you're eating too many calories. I can stay lean and add muscle. MOST PEOPLE think that you have to get "bigger" to add muscle and don't "FEEL" like they're getting bigger. I'll say it again, a PRO bb can add about 12-18lbs a year. If you wanna add 18lbs, you're going to need a trainer, a diet coach, blood work, every supplement known to man and genetics. So, you can either do it the right way, which is to get yourself lean and slowly add muscle OR do it like everyone else and get lean, then get fat, then get lean, then get fat, then get lean etc. etc. etc. and each time you get lean you notice you weigh 6lbs more.

[cdbouncer]

While your response mirrors most of the other responses and comments I think that your comment about a pro bb adding 12-18# of muscle a year is skewed based on their current status. I've personally seen people who were small in January add far more than that in one year...without the trainer, bloodwork, etc. You aren't far from the truth if said bb has been doing it for awhile...just my opinion.


I'm not reading the replies of everyone, just read your question and yes, if you're adding fat you're eating too many calories. I can stay lean and add muscle. MOST PEOPLE think that you have to get "bigger" to add muscle and don't "FEEL" like they're getting bigger. I'll say it again, a PRO bb can add about 12-18lbs a year. If you wanna add 18lbs, you're going to need a trainer, a diet coach, blood work, every supplement known to man and genetics. So, you can either do it the right way, which is to get yourself lean and slowly add muscle OR do it like everyone else and get lean, then get fat, then get lean, then get fat, then get lean etc. etc. etc. and each time you get lean you notice you weigh 6lbs more.

[PROFLYER]

bulldog, I walked for 30 min every morning starting 2 weeks out from the show. Diet is easier then cardio!!!! More then 135bpm or so for your heart rate and you'll go catabolic midly which inhibits what I was trying to do. Also, you guys have to understand that I was getting on stage in my panties! I do NOT look like I did anymore, I am about 190 now and "softer" if you will. Also, by the end of the day after I had gained back 8lbs in water alone. The diuretics I was taking were insane, but my skin was paper thin....anyway, honestly a guy with his diet in perfect check who really knows his body can maintain about 7-8% year round and grow if he wants. Food is your enemy and friend. 60% protein, 30%carbs, 10% fat. 1.5g protein per pound of body weight. Only oats and yams for carbs and fruit. Otherwise diet is lean protein, veggies, tiny (golf ball size) carb like yam and 5 (seriously) strawberries per meal.

[PROFLYER]

While your response mirrors most of the other responses and comments I think that your comment about a pro bb adding 12-18# of muscle a year is skewed based on their current status. I've personally seen people who were small in January add far more than that in one year...without the trainer, bloodwork, etc. You aren't far from the truth if said bb has been doing it for awhile...just my opinion.

Sorry, that's the statistic. Phil heath was able to add 18lbs average STAGE WEIGHT per year, and he's "the gift" with sick genetics. If you've got genetics that can beat that, you're in the wrong profession.

[cdbouncer]

Dood - how'd you do in the comp?

I don't think really anybody in this thread is cutting or bulking, for that matter, to compete - at least it hasn't been brought up. One guy said that he was shocked that the CSC has so many people who trained like competetion bb's....my first thought was - Well they've obviously got it figured out why not follow their lead - otherwise you're wasting your time.

As I'll say with any competitor - congrats on training for and surviving a competition. Ever gonna do it again?


bulldog, I walked for 30 min every morning starting 2 weeks out from the show. Diet is easier then cardio!!!! More then 135bpm or so for your heart rate and you'll go catabolic midly which inhibits what I was trying to do. Also, you guys have to understand that I was getting on stage in my panties! I do NOT look like I did anymore, I am about 190 now and "softer" if you will. Also, by the end of the day after I had gained back 8lbs in water alone. The diuretics I was taking were insane, but my skin was paper thin....anyway, honestly a guy with his diet in perfect check who really knows his body can maintain about 7-8% year round and grow if he wants. Food is your enemy and friend. 60% protein, 30%carbs, 10% fat. 1.5g protein per pound of body weight. Only oats and yams for carbs and fruit. Otherwise diet is lean protein, veggies, tiny (golf ball size) carb like yam and 5 (seriously) strawberries per meal.

[PROFLYER]

I got 2nd light heavy. First show, I'll do another next year. Its 10 months of just hard training and a steady diet then 2 months of insanity. Idk if my gf would tolerate another show! I was *mildly* grumpy.

And I know that no one is trying to do a show, but if you look at the most extreme side of the sport, and take away some of the intensity, you're left with what it takes to be lean, be healthy and look good with your shirt off :D

[cdbouncer]

I agree 100%!

Ah yea the gf - well as a chica who reached 11% by herself while cooking dinner for somebody....I can say I was more than mildly grumpy the last few weeks. Never again....

[PROFLYER]

That's really low for a girl, good job! I have several friends (girls) who compete and most come into the show at about 9%, some 8 some 10 but right around 9% for figure. Now bikini (new class) is more like 11-12 at least, maybe more. Do one! :D

[cdbouncer]

I had the "i'm not big enough" syndrome when I was that lean...so I added mass (and fat) then cut again but could never get back down that low before I started to feel too small. The scale would get below 150 and I'd freak out. I hit 130 on my own (haven't been there since HS) then maybe see where my BF is....see if I can figure out how to teach my brain that I dont' have to be big and ripped...just ripped lol...then maybe I can think about it....damn i'll almost be masters class I think...


That's really low for a girl, good job! I have several friends (girls) who compete and most come into the show at about 9%, some 8 some 10 but right around 9% for figure. Now bikini (new class) is more like 11-12 at least, maybe more. Do one! :D

[vegasbound]

Guys I just finished a "cut". I started around 190lbs in the first pic and 153lbs in the second pic. This is the first time I have seen abs and I'm 39 years old lol...

Clean diet, low carb/moderate fats/high protein along with early AM workouts with weights followed by 45 minutes cardio 5-6 days per week were key...Pre-workout energy drinks like Jacked3D really helped.

Before:
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w316/vegasbound/IMG00189-20100714-15311-1.jpg

After:
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w316/vegasbound/Finishedcut2-1.jpg

[dragos13]

So I was peddling on the bike last night and gotta say I agree with PROFLYER as for keeping lean and putting on muscle. Obviously that is the ideal situation. My plan is to keep up the high calories and protein, heavy weight with fewer reps, but also do just enough cardio to keep off the fat. I'm currenly taking a preworkout Nitric Oxide drink with creatine and a postworkout Whey protein drink with creatine (hydrochloride not monohydrate). I don't feel like I've put on too much fat/water weight but I'm sure alot of it is. I workout everyday about 1.5hrs and also do 25min cardio (stationary bike). I do an ab routine everyday as well, in between sets of benching or curling, or whatever the day is. My protein intake is about 80g supplement (whey drink, protein bar, muscle milk) and about 80g from real food (eggs, turkey or chicken salad sandwich, steak chicken or fish for dinner, yogurt before bed) along with two servings of fruit and one serving raw vegetables. I space the meals out to about 6 per day. I'm on the fence about adding Pink Magic to my plan after talking with some trainers at the gym. Might be added next month. I also change my workouts every 30 days and drink about a gallon of water per day. Here is a before and after. I have put on about 9lbs as of this picture since I started last month. The mission is to keep this up until I get too fat and need to cut, or if things go right I'll just keep adding muscle:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii206/dragosracer/before_after_1month-1.jpg

[cdbouncer]

dood - you gonna fit in your race suit???

Sounds like you've got a plan worked out. Are you eating any complex carbs? Since proflyer is actually a competition level bb (and competed at least once) he's done the work, he's done the cut - he'll be a great person to talk to once you start cutting. You'll learn lots about yourself during that time :) :crazy: Good luck! I'll be curious to see how your plan unfolds - i've seen lots of different people try different things with very interesting results.

Hmm - maybe I should get back in the gym.....:cyber:

[dragos13]

If I have to buy a new suit next year because I get too big, that would be a great thing :)

I usually eat whole wheat bread, granola cereal, sometimes oatmeal. Should I focus my carb intake on complex carbs? Should I intake more complex carbs then simple carbs? Right now I would guess I take in more simple carbs.

[cdbouncer]

Nice! Just as long as you're prepared for that :)

Gah - you can (I did) focus too much on what my food was made off. You can focus too little on it as well. Keep your carbs clean, keep them unprocessed and keep them to a minimum whille you're doing this. If you don't eat enough carbs your body will tell you. Cutting is a whole different story. Plain in simple - complex carbs are better for you - your body can use them better and you get more out of them.

Most of what you said you eat will mostly go away....unless you're one of those lucky people who can cut and still eat. My friend who I mentioned in an earlier post who's maintained his BF and his mass...he's one of those people. He's eating oats and raisins for bfast on a cut (with a shtton of protein of course) and I'm sitting beside him with my 2.5oz of salmon that I'm eating....growling at him.

For now - your progress pics look like you're doing the right thing. You might think about spreading out your cardio - that might help you stay leaner while trying to ass mass. Just a thought - that's worked for me in the past...but then I didn't mind going to the gym twice a day and a run once.

[bulldog]

If you want to kill it in the gym.... Get JACK3D! This stuff is amazing!!!

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/X6NUj-8eBAUd9TKpX5E8kTBIzo1QvJmjivos_HO1PCaW0jw2hHK3N3z9 U5SItvQQXPhGZqJboUGeZuGaZQqlVaTKnjt6WLT79i2bUC10Ee stB9-7AvVPiCamtfKXEIZ917x5uhAyeu0vJdZDQDCpfb06u32Je3RTk utU8ryShdbS


Comes in other flavors too! I have never had the intesity and focus with any other supplement.
http://www.diet.com/products/000065.jpg
Got my Jack3D in yesterday and all I can say is WOW! This stuff is for real!!! I took one scoop (which is tiny) 30 minutes prior to my workout. After 2 hours I had to make myself leave from the gym and still had energy. I was lifting at least 10 pounds more on every shoulder exercise I did yesterday. Made me a bit jittery at first, but I don't consume much caffeine so I am a bit sensitive. All I can say is if anyone is serious about working out and needs a boost, get this stuff!!!!

Thanks LoLo, I honestly feel this is going to change my workouts for the better. I am going to order another bottle now!

[(( LO LO ))]

Got my Jack3D in yesterday and all I can say is WOW! This stuff is for real!!! I took one scoop (which is tiny) 30 minutes prior to my workout. After 2 hours I had to make myself leave from the gym and still had energy. I was lifting at least 10 pounds more on every shoulder exercise I did yesterday. Made me a bit jittery at first, but I don't consume much caffeine so I am a bit sensitive. All I can say is if anyone is serious about working out and needs a boost, get this stuff!!!!

Thanks LoLo, I honestly feel this is going to change my workouts for the better. I am going to order another bottle now!


Get pumped brotha! :rock:

[bulldog]

Get pumped brotha! :rock:
I am man, first time I have got this excited by the results of a supp in a long time! I was seriously putting up more weight than ever before and felt like I could work out for hours. Feel asleep fine which I was worried about......

Just ordered the grape/bubbelgum! This stuff is almost too good to be true, so if anyone hears any news of it getting banned let me know (seriously) so I can buy a case of it :lol:

[dragos13]

I am man, first time I have got this excited by the results of a supp in a long time! I was seriously putting up more weight than ever before and felt like I could work out for hours. Feel asleep fine which I was worried about......

Just ordered the grape/bubbelgum! This stuff is almost too good to be true, so if anyone hears any news of it getting banned let me know (seriously) so I can buy a case of it :lol:

Thats awesome man. I have about 10 days left on my GNC N.O. Loaded and the Jack3d will be my next purchase for sure. Still haven't heard a bad thing about it :)

[bulldog]

Thats awesome man. I have about 10 days left on my GNC N.O. Loaded and the Jack3d will be my next purchase for sure. Still haven't heard a bad thing about it :)Post up how you like it, but I bet you will be impressed! Just found it on ebay for $24.95 with free shipping.

Thanks for posting up pics (you too Vegasbound) so I wasn't alone :lol: I need to get some updated ones since that was over 6 months ago and I have been hitting it hard the last few months.

[dragos13]

Well this is my first pre-workout drink that I have taken. The taste (fruit punch) is tolerable for sure. Not something I have to force down. I would actually recommend this to anyone but with my limited knowledge, I have to try Jack3d first to compare. It really helps me focus in the gym. I get home from work somedays just not feeling like working out. About 30min after drinking it, I'm at the gym pumped up and ready to go. I can get through my workout much easier (I spent the first week without a preworkout drink) and my body feels much stronger. I really notice it towards the end of my workout when I can hit the bike for 10min HARD without letting up.

[PROFLYER]

One thing you guys will notice with the pre-workout stuff is switching supps makes them feel "amazing." For some reason your body gets used to the blend of whatever you're currently on. I don't buy more then one tub at a time for this reason anymore, and switch them around constantly. I like the Jack3d and the SSIN but the Monster Pump by cyto is my new fav and I have had several tubs of this. The jack3d etc. is good for a kick but the larger blended supps have more stuff in them to aid in recovery etc.

Also, the most important is your POST workout stuff. The very best thing I can find is either Myozene OR Anator P70. Don't mess with anything else, these are really a perfect blend, the rest is just hype.

[bulldog]

One thing you guys will notice with the pre-workout stuff is switching supps makes them feel "amazing." For some reason your body gets used to the blend of whatever you're currently on. I don't buy more then one tub at a time for this reason anymore, and switch them around constantly. I like the Jack3d and the SSIN but the Monster Pump by cyto is my new fav and I have had several tubs of this. The jack3d etc. is good for a kick but the larger blended supps have more stuff in them to aid in recovery etc.

Also, the most important is your POST workout stuff. The very best thing I can find is either Myozene OR Anator P70. Don't mess with anything else, these are really a perfect blend, the rest is just hype.
Anator P70 is the worst tasting supp I have ever tried; beware!!!!

[dragos13]

One thing you guys will notice with the pre-workout stuff is switching supps makes them feel "amazing." For some reason your body gets used to the blend of whatever you're currently on. I don't buy more then one tub at a time for this reason anymore, and switch them around constantly. I like the Jack3d and the SSIN but the Monster Pump by cyto is my new fav and I have had several tubs of this. The jack3d etc. is good for a kick but the larger blended supps have more stuff in them to aid in recovery etc.

Also, the most important is your POST workout stuff. The very best thing I can find is either Myozene OR Anator P70. Don't mess with anything else, these are really a perfect blend, the rest is just hype.

While some supplements are definitely better than others, to say that ALL OTHER SUPPLEMENTS are just hype is going a bit far.

I just ordered Jack3d to replace the GNC stuff I've been using for pre-workout so we'll see how that goes. Might check out the Monster Pump next :)

[bulldog]

2010 Supp Awards by Bodybuilding.com
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/2010-supplement-award-winners.htm

Nice Jack3d won three of them :up:

[(( LO LO ))]

Jack3d is awesome... Hands down

[dragos13]

Well UPS just delivered Jack3d to my front door :-)

I also added CytoSport CytoGainer as my morning supplement. I take it first thing when I wake up to refresh the protein in my system. Also, should help bulk up. So, between that, a protein bar and my post workout GNC Wheybolic 60 I'm taking about 90g protein supplements and 90g protein real food per day.

I plan on taking Jack3d starting today and will update you guys after 1 workou rotation (4 days)

:)

[dragos13]

Oh yeah, current measurements show I gained 1/4 inch each bicep and almost 1 inch in the chest. This is after only 30 days which took me 90 days last year for the same gain.

[bulldog]

Well UPS just delivered Jack3d to my front door :-)

I also added CytoSport CytoGainer as my morning supplement. I take it first thing when I wake up to refresh the protein in my system. Also, should help bulk up. So, between that, a protein bar and my post workout GNC Wheybolic 60 I'm taking about 90g protein supplements and 90g protein real food per day.

I plan on taking Jack3d starting today and will update you guys after 1 workou rotation (4 days)

:) I just completed a week on Jack3d, and I am still impressed with my workout result while on it. None have been under 2 hours and all times I had to force myself to leave because I still had energy to lift even when I lifted more than I do usually.

Let me know how it goes for you.

[Keyser Soze]

NoX, Creatine, and a few protein shakes a day is all I take. I've been able to throw on 25 lbs in a little over a month. Muscle memory FTW :lol:

[dragos13]

NoX, Creatine, and a few protein shakes a day is all I take. I've been able to throw on 25 lbs in a little over a month. Muscle memory FTW :lol:

Obviously this writeup is biased towards Jack3d but take a look at the facts:

http://www.jack-3d.com/jack3d-vs-no-xplode

I have been using GNC N.O. Loaded and it works great. I figure its time to switch things up and use them back to back. See if its better or worse and continue on my mission :)

[bulldog]

NoX, Creatine, and a few protein shakes a day is all I take. I've been able to throw on 25 lbs in a little over a month. Muscle memory FTW :lol: Well you had shrank a lot last time I saw you ;) :lol:

Try Jack3d and I doubt you will use NOx anymore, especially since it is cheaper..... Worked for me, so I am happy.


Obviously this writeup is biased towards Jack3d but take a look at the facts:

http://www.jack-3d.com/jack3d-vs-no-xplode (http://www.jack-3d.com/jack3d-vs-no-xplode)
:up:

[Keyser Soze]

Well you had shrank a lot last time I saw you ;) :lol:

Try Jack3d and I doubt you will use NOx anymore, especially since it is cheaper..... Worked for me, so I am happy.

:up:

I'll check it out. I'm stuck at 200. Need to do more legs.

[dragos13]

So I wanted to get this thread bumped up again to see where everyone is at and how things are going.

First, I tried Jack3d but decided to stop due to some side effects. If you are interested in details please PM me as I'd rather not discuss it publicly. I got up to about 163 after the first 30 days and have been there ever since. I gotta say, its great stuff for your pump and focus. Not much else has changed other then adding my CytoGainer shake in the morning and Whey Isolate 28 about an hour before workout. I will admit that I was throwing up more weight then ever.

First day:
First thing I noticed was the container is super small. It has 45 servings and it half the size of my GNC which is also 45 servings. The scoops are very small also. Definitely doesn’t taste like fruit punch, more like pina colada. Also, doesn’t mix up as smooth as they claim but with only 4 ounces of water, it went down pretty easy. I used 1 scoop per recommendations for the first time. I felt pretty good once I got to the gym. I definitely had more focus on this stuff, and felt like tunnel vision when I was on the machines. I was able to bang through the same amount of sets with slightly more weight (I have been increasing weight every week already). The huge difference I noticed was the pump. This day was an arms day and my arms were throbbing. I have never had them so pumped up in my life. It stayed that way for hours after the workout. I never felt that sort of pump with the GNC product. It was the most noticeable improvement between the two. Focus stayed throughout my workout and I left the gym with energy, maybe slightly more than usual.
Day 2:
Once again the pump was insane. It was a legs day and my calfs were seriously bulging by the time I was done. I’m still only taking 1 scoop per instructions and hoping to keep it at that amount. I had great focus but it seemed like I was lacking much energy. I could get through a set without any issues but in between sets I was feeling kind of tired. They estimate 100mg of caffeine per scoop of jack3d while my previous GNC stuff had 400mg. I’m thinking I have become immune to caffeine now so hopefully it will start kicking in better since I’ll be taking less daily. Still a great product. Very chunky this time but you can down it all in two gulps.
Day 3:
I decided I need more protein immediately prior to my workout. Normally I eat lunch at 11am then don’t have anything else until my preworkout supp (jack3d). Now, I decided to start mixing one scoop of Jack3d with one scoop of GNC Whey Isolate 28. Whey Isolates are the fastest absorbing type of protein. I drank this mix about 45 minutes prior to workout. The mix of pina colada and chocolate isn’t the best but its still drinkable. Once again I had great pump in my arms and shoulders (this was a shoulders day) and good focus but still lacked the normal energy I’d feel on the N.O. Loaded. I’m convinced its just a matter of caffeine content and I’m actually happy to workout with less caffeine. I have read a lot of reviews about this stuff making it hard to sleep but about 4 hrs after taking it I was plenty tired to pass out. I haven’t noticed any negative side effects. My appetite is about the same. If anything I’m more hungry. I have also made sure to drink lots of water. Atleast a gallon a day.

I have stopped taking Jack3d and switched back to N.O. Loaded from GNC. My next pre-workout supplement is going to be Monster Pump by CytoSport. I will keep people posted on that and should be starting at the first of next month. If you are trying to stay lean and build muscle, Jack3d works great. I have dropped about an inch on my waist while still gaining about an 1/8 inch on my arms and 1/2 inch on my chest, all in about 20 days.

Next month I will be totally revising my program. I have a personal trainer who is going to change up my workout routine as well as my diet. Her goal is to get me at about 80% real food and 20% supplements. I still plan on putting on muscle and cutting down fat to get to the shredded look that I'm after. She is going to help me with everything, from what I eat, when I eat it, and how I work out. I have currently starting tracking every peice of food or drink (basically everything I take in except water) to monitor calories, protein, fat and carbs.

[bulldog]

Wow, sorry Jack3d didn't work out for you man. I am still getting awesome results from it and if anything my problem now is over-training because I never get truly tired at the gym now and always seems to have the energy and focus to do a few more sets. I like the less caffeine as caffeine usually makes me crash. I guess some supplements react different to some people, because I have got no side effects at all; if anything I would say it improves my mood after a stressful day at work.

[Jay600]

Your best supplement is food and plenty of it.

[bulldog]

Your best supplement is food and plenty of it. Except food is not a supplement :lol:

A dietary supplement, also known as food supplement or nutritional supplement, is a preparation intended to supplement the diet and provide nutrients (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/wiki/Nutrient), such as vitamins (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/wiki/Vitamin), minerals (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/wiki/Dietary_mineral), fiber (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber), fatty acids (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/wiki/Fatty_acid), or amino acids (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/wiki/Amino_acid), that may be missing or may not be consumed in sufficient quantity in a person's diet (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/wiki/Diet_(nutrition)).

[dragos13]

Your best supplement is food and plenty of it.

Unfortunately that isn't true. With the advancements in technology, there are far superior supplements over food such as Whey Isolates and specific boosters like Nitric Oxide to increase blood flow and creatine to supply energy to your cells.

Don't get me wrong, food is extremely important. Its just not as efficient for specific needs such as fast absorbing predigesting proteins, etc.

The main reason for this thread is because I have a pretty good idea on what a good diet should consist of. Its pretty obvious what foods do what. I'm just new to supplements and like talking to people who have tried certain products, what works, why it works, and how it work.

[bulldog]

Ok, guess it is time to bring up this old thread since it is summer time and more people are getting geared towards getting in shape. Plus I think with the server crash we lost the “Get in Shape” thread (I could not find it).

So LoLo changed my workout with his recommendation of Jack3d and I have been using it for a few months now. Well it is time to move up to the next best per-workout supplement that people are talking about that like Jack3D. Ordered this and should get in today:

1.M.R.

http://www.steeleshapesupplements.com/images/1mr%20powder%20fruit%20punch.jpg

Review on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/1-M-R-Fruit-Punch-224-grams/dp/B0034VX4Y6

Here is my progress so far in the last few months. As some know from the other thread I had beeb adding weight for years (started at 135lbs with a 34 inch waist [beer belly]. Got to about 190lbs and then leaned it all out which was one way I have suggested for people that have trouble gaining to do. I am at about 175 with a 30 inch waist now. Speak up gym rats or anyone that is addicted to fitness like me :) Plus I am always down to help people starting out...

[mastap07]

about a 1:20 in....
http://youtu.be/4JMOh-cul6M

[bulldog]

about a 1:20 in....
http://youtu.be/4JMOh-cul6M :doublefinger:

[Shea]

Here is my progress so far in the last few months. As some know from the other thread I had beeb adding weight for years (started at 135lbs with a 34 inch waist [beer belly]. Got to about 190lbs and then leaned it all out which was one way I have suggested for people that have trouble gaining to do. I am at about 175 with a 30 inch waist now. Speak up gym rats or anyone that is addicted to fitness like me :) Plus I am always down to help people starting out...

In the middle of my lean down phase at the moment. Need to get under weight for ze military. I've lost 32 pounds in 6 weeks and need to lose about 15 more. Then starts the workout. Keep the recommendations on the supplements coming! :)

PS Anyone in Monument want a gym partner? Tri-Lakes fitness.

[bulldog]

In the middle of my lean down phase at the moment. Need to get under weight for ze military. I've lost 32 pounds in 6 weeks and need to lose about 15 more. Then starts the workout. Keep the recommendations on the supplements coming! :)

PS Anyone in Monument want a gym partner? Tri-Lakes fitness. Wow, 32 pounds in 6 weeks is really great; good job! And this was all just from dieting?

[Shea]

Wow, 32 pounds in 6 weeks is really great; good job! And this was all just from dieting?

~800 calories a day, hour and half cardio in the morning and another hour at night + light weights to maintain muscle tone.

[bulldog]

~800 calories a day, hour and half cardio in the morning and another hour at night + light weights to maintain muscle tone. That is amazing you find the energy for all that with such little calorie intake; major willpower (I probably take in more just for breakfast) :up: Make sure you are taking a multivitamin to balance that out. Sounds like you are doing everything pretty well though. You need any help advice feel free to PM me or post here; if I don't know, then I am sure one of my other gym rats do. :lol:

You ever tried Jack3d or any of those for energy? My 1MR didn't get delivered in time so should hopefully be here today so I can try it out and put a review out.

Lot's of people on the board not caring about fitness; wtf..aren't we rated the #1 fittest state.....

[Shea]

That is amazing you find the energy for all that with such little calorie intake; major willpower (I probably take in more just for breakfast) :up: Make sure you are taking a multivitamin to balance that out. Sounds like you are doing everything pretty well though. You need any help advice feel free to PM me or post here; if I don't know, then I am sure one of my other gym rats do. :lol:

You ever tried Jack3d or any of those for energy? My 1MR didn't get delivered in time so should hopefully be here today so I can try it out and put a review out.

Lot's of people on the board not caring about fitness; wtf..aren't we rated the #1 fittest state.....

Energy really isn't a problem (I have quite a bit of a stored supply :) ). I'm "eating" this (one scoop) every three hours. It has pretty much everything in it...

http://shop.sequelnaturals.com/core/media/media.nl?id=215&c=1034580&h=10d6277b82a07dc7cc6e

Works out to 780 calories, a lot of fiber, 78g of protein and 300% of every vitamin I could ever need. Shit ain't cheep but it works.

Just ordered some Jack3d.

[(( LO LO ))]

Nate, let me know how the 1.M.R works out. I am still cycling Jacke3d, and killing it in the gym. But I am always curious on the next best thing. My endurance has gone through the roof with Jacke3d. My run times have been shaved down by minutes using this stuff.... Is it still legal? Lol But yeah, let me know how 1.M.R. goes brotha!

[FZRguy]

My run times have been shaved down by minutes using this stuff.... Is it still legal?

No, rumor has it that Lance used it during the TDF. :horse:

[bulldog]

Energy really isn't a problem (I have quite a bit of a stored supply :) ). I'm "eating" this (one scoop) every three hours. It has pretty much everything in it...

http://shop.sequelnaturals.com/core/media/media.nl?id=215&c=1034580&h=10d6277b82a07dc7cc6e

Works out to 780 calories, a lot of fiber, 78g of protein and 300% of every vitamin I could ever need. Shit ain't cheep but it works.

Just ordered some Jack3d.

I'll have to research that stuff; never heard of it before. When you first try Jack3d start of with maybe half a scoop and work your way up so you can find your tolerance.




Nate, let me know how the 1.M.R works out. I am still cycling Jacke3d, and killing it in the gym. But I am always curious on the next best thing. My endurance has gone through the roof with Jacke3d. My run times have been shaved down by minutes using this stuff.... Is it still legal? Lol But yeah, let me know how 1.M.R. goes brotha! What up brother! Yeah Jack3d really helped my workout a lot and gave me great results; thanks again for that recommendation. Doubt Jack3d is going anywhere as it has won awards for best new supplement and many people use it now; hope not though.

You were already in good shape last I saw you years ago so you must be in great shape now.....have to call you the Spanish Muscle Shark. :lol:

I tried 1.M.R last night for the first time and didn't see too much of a difference from Jack3d, but I didn't take too much of it since the bottle stated 1 scoop of 1MR equals to 3 scoops of the competitor (assuming Jack3d) and I had never took three scoops of Jack before. So basically took just over half a scoop of 1MR (scoop seems a bit larger than Jack3ds) and seemed about the same as Jack3d; great focus and energy, was still able to sleep, and didn't have any jitters or major crash. I will try a full scoop today before the gym and give a better review on it with the normal dose. If anything it may be cheaper Jack3d in the long run since it takes less, but we will see if it is worth it. Maybe I will just go back and forth between the two, because I have heard a lot of people on bodybuilding.com state this is what they do and it works well.

[bulldog]

No, rumor has it that Lance used it during the TDF. :horse:

John, Jack3d is 100% legal and sold at major retailers like GNC. It may not be legal in many pro sports, but many things are banned in those situations to keep the field equal; plus it works too well!

[bulldog]

I guess too many people on this board are lazy and don't workout...sheesh (big surprise America). Then everyone bitches about drama, yet those threads are the one that seem to blow up! Plus losing a few pounds will actually make your bike faster and better conditioning improves riding. Stop being lazy everyone or at least contribute to help the next person just starting out! J

Anyways, not sure anyone follows, but as promised to LoLo here is my review of 1.M.R: The scoop is a bit bigger than Jack3d; 1MR is 8mg and Jack3d is 5.5. I normally took 2 scoops of Jack3d prior to working out, but have only been taking one scoop of 1MR, so the cost per does should be better. I get about the same results as Jack3d, using the one scoop of 1MR and actually seem to get some of the “pumped” feeling I use to get from Jack3d. I would recommend this to anyone that has been taking Jack3d for a few months that wants to get that initial feeling back from the geranium stem pump; it is good to switch pre-workouts, protein, etc anyways. Just like with Jack3d the energy is unbelievable and really helps to get the workout going after working all day and has helped with lean muscle growth and pushing through goals.

[Sean]

My endurance has gone through the roof with Jacke3d. My run times have been shaved down by minutes using this stuff.... Is it still legal?Can you elaborate?


No, rumor has it that Lance used it during the TDF. :horse:Why, what's in it? Do you know? Is it illegal in Pro, or all sports competitions?


I guess too many people on this board are lazy and don't workout...sheesh (big surprise America). Then everyone bitches about drama, yet those threads are the one that seem to blow up! Plus losing a few pounds will actually make your bike faster and better conditioning improves riding. Stop being lazy everyone or at least contribute to help the next person just starting out! OR some people work out almost everyday but don't do weights. I only really do endurance stuff. :up:

[bulldog]

Can you elaborate?

Why, what's in it? Do you know? Is it illegal in Pro, or all sports competitions?

OR some people work out almost everyday but don't do weights. I only really do endurance stuff. :up:
I will let LoLo answer but the results were pretty amazing when it came to his quarter mile run time and heavier lifts.

Almost all stimulants are illegal in Pro sports; even Creatine is banned! Jack3d and 1.M.R. have 1.3 dimethylamylamine (geranium stem) in it which is a stimulant that produces incredible energy, focus, and pumps. It can be harmful in huge quantities, but the amount in these pre-workout drinks are not enough to cause more than maybe anxiety, jitters, and headache (similar to caffeine). Really these are very similar to energy drinks like Monster, Red Bull, and Rockstar, just put into a powder form. Just like those energy drinks if you abuse them and do way more than recommended then you may have problems, but used correctly they are great.

And this thread is just about anything for working out, so not just about Jack3d or 1MR.

Well I don’t just do weights either, I run at least 1 mile everyday 5 times a week, so I am always interested in that stuff too. What kind of endurance training do you do? I mainly do the elliptical machine, stair climber, treadmill, etc along with P90X for abs. I am always looking for new ways to not get bored with cardio, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

[FZRguy]

What kind of endurance training do you do? I mainly do the elliptical machine, stair climber, treadmill, etc along with P90X for abs. I am always looking for new ways to not get bored with cardio, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

We're doing a 4 person team 24 hr MTB race in Larkspur (24 Hrs of E-Rock). Starts Friday at 6PM to Saturday 6PM. Come on out Nate, gonna be a big party....and we'll ride some too!

[bulldog]

We're doing a 4 person team 24 hr MTB race in Larkspur (24 Hrs of E-Rock). Starts Friday at 6PM to Saturday 6PM. Come on out Nate, gonna be a big party....and we'll ride some too! Dang, I will be out of town on a white water rafting trip. A 24 hour race sounds hardcore; good luck man!

[Sean]

And this thread is just about anything for working out, so not just about Jack3d or 1MR.

Well I don’t just do weights either, I run at least 1 mile everyday 5 times a week, so I am always interested in that stuff too. What kind of endurance training do you do? I mainly do the elliptical machine, stair climber, treadmill, etc along with P90X for abs. I am always looking for new ways to not get bored with cardio, so any suggestions would be appreciated.I was just busting your chops a little. That's awesome that you do some cardio too. Seems like there are a lot of really fit people that can't even run a mile. It seems odd to me.

I do mostly triathlon related stuff: swimming, biking and running. I do try to do some weights and core work when I can, but my workouts tend to take so long, that weights usually take a back seat. If you don't usually swim, I really recommended it. It's a great full body/cardio workout and can be very relaxing when you get comfortable in the water.

Congrats on your improvement!

[Think]

Sorry to bump the thread again, but I need advice.

I'm 6'2 and weighed 149 my freshman year of college. Worked out pretty consistently the summer before my sophomore year and hit 165-170ish. Kept that throughout college. Since I've been down in Alabama for flight school, I'm up to 180 but that's mostly because I eat a lot and I think my metabolism got hit pretty hard from SERE school (just a guess, I'm no doctor). Had a 30-31 inch waste coming out of SERE and got up to a 33 inch waste just a few weeks after and I've never had over a 32 inch waste until now. I'm by no means fat, but I am not in that great of shape. I'm tired of being scrawny.

In the past month I've been working out 3-5 times a week. I do random lifting and I usually run 2 miles on the treadmill every time I go as my run score on my last diagnostic PT test was laughable compared to what I've run before. However, I don't think that I'm doing the right workouts. I'm looking to gain some mass and some endurance. I found this page but I'm unsure as to what workout would suit me best: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw1.htm

I actually posted this up on bodybuilding.com trying to get some advice, but got no responses. Seems I get help and advice from folks on here more than on any other forum I'm on. I didn't read through the entire thread, just bits and pieces, so please don't crucify me if I may be repeating something that's already been said.

[Keyser Soze]

Sorry to bump the thread again, but I need advice.

I'm 6'2 and weighed 149 my freshman year of college. Worked out pretty consistently the summer before my sophomore year and hit 165-170ish. Kept that throughout college. Since I've been down in Alabama for flight school, I'm up to 180 but that's mostly because I eat a lot and I think my metabolism got hit pretty hard from SERE school (just a guess, I'm no doctor). Had a 30-31 inch waste coming out of SERE and got up to a 33 inch waste just a few weeks after and I've never had over a 32 inch waste until now. I'm by no means fat, but I am not in that great of shape. I'm tired of being scrawny.

In the past month I've been working out 3-5 times a week. I do random lifting and I usually run 2 miles on the treadmill every time I go as my run score on my last diagnostic PT test was laughable compared to what I've run before. However, I don't think that I'm doing the right workouts. I'm looking to gain some mass and some endurance. I found this page but I'm unsure as to what workout would suit me best: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw1.htm

I actually posted this up on bodybuilding.com trying to get some advice, but got no responses. Seems I get help and advice from folks on here more than on any other forum I'm on. I didn't read through the entire thread, just bits and pieces, so please don't crucify me if I may be repeating something that's already been said.

What supplements are you takin? How's your diet? What's your routine look like? How much time are you spending in the gym? Lotta different things here that could drastically change the amount of mass you're putting on.

[Keyser Soze]

John, Jack3d is 100% legal and sold at major retailers like GNC. It may not be legal in many pro sports, but many things are banned in those situations to keep the field equal; plus it works too well!

I've heard nothing but good things about Jack3d. Surprised it's so cheap. I'm gonna give it a go tonight.

[dragos13]

What supplements are you takin? How's your diet? What's your routine look like? How much time are you spending in the gym? Lotta different things here that could drastically change the amount of mass you're putting on.


Yeah answer these questions for starters. You say you lift randomly. What exactly does your week consist of? What goals are you looking to achieve?

[bulldog]

Sorry to bump the thread again, but I need advice.

I'm 6'2 and weighed 149 my freshman year of college. Worked out pretty consistently the summer before my sophomore year and hit 165-170ish. Kept that throughout college. Since I've been down in Alabama for flight school, I'm up to 180 but that's mostly because I eat a lot and I think my metabolism got hit pretty hard from SERE school (just a guess, I'm no doctor). Had a 30-31 inch waste coming out of SERE and got up to a 33 inch waste just a few weeks after and I've never had over a 32 inch waste until now. I'm by no means fat, but I am not in that great of shape. I'm tired of being scrawny.

In the past month I've been working out 3-5 times a week. I do random lifting and I usually run 2 miles on the treadmill every time I go as my run score on my last diagnostic PT test was laughable compared to what I've run before. However, I don't think that I'm doing the right workouts. I'm looking to gain some mass and some endurance. I found this page but I'm unsure as to what workout would suit me best: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw1.htm

I actually posted this up on bodybuilding.com trying to get some advice, but got no responses. Seems I get help and advice from folks on here more than on any other forum I'm on. I didn't read through the entire thread, just bits and pieces, so please don't crucify me if I may be repeating something that's already been said.
Like I have said before a lot of this is about proper diet; I'd go as far to say 70% diet and 30% working out. You can work out tons and not get great results if your diet is not correct. So what are your eating habits?

I recommend eating every two hours small meals (get your normal 3 meals and split them up at the least; obviously the healthier the better). This will start to change your metobolism to always process food instead of storing it as fat. If a person only eats a couple times a day then the body is not sure when it will get food next so it stores it as fat rather than processing it. I would look into maybe protein shakes to help achieve this 2 hour eating and to also help gain/recover from your workout.

As for working out....push yourself always. If your workout is getting easy, then you need to up your weight or reps. Your body/muscles will get use to a workout so always change it up. If you aren't sweating, then you are most likelt not working out hard enough.

As mentioned before pre workout drinks like Jack3d helps to get you the extra energy to workout hard and also help with lean muscle gaining.

[bulldog]

I've heard nothing but good things about Jack3d. Surprised it's so cheap. I'm gonna give it a go tonight. Rob, hopefully it will work well for you. Pre-workouts seems to be different for some people so it is all about fidning the one that works best for you; ex NOExplode, Mass Pump, Jack3d, etc.

I've been using this 1.M.R. for the last few weeks and seems like Jack3d just more stimulant ingriedients; so I just use less and is saving me money over Jack3d right now.

[cbrjohnny]

creatine can make you cramp up bad after long workouts... beware! lol ive been put on the ground by that stuff lol

[Think]

What supplements are you takin? How's your diet? What's your routine look like? How much time are you spending in the gym? Lotta different things here that could drastically change the amount of mass you're putting on.
I drink a Whey protein shake after every workout but that's it other than a multivitamin everyday. I generally spend about an hour to an hour and a half in the gym.

Yeah answer these questions for starters. You say you lift randomly. What exactly does your week consist of? What goals are you looking to achieve?
I mean I'll separate different muscle groups every day like lower and upper, but unless I'm feeling crappy I always run a couple miles. I usually work out Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. I don't work out Wednesdays because I'm usually studying for a test and I occasionally work out Saturdays.

Like I have said before a lot of this is about proper diet; I'd go as far to say 70% diet and 30% working out. You can work out tons and not get great results if your diet is not correct. So what are your eating habits?

I recommend eating every two hours small meals (get your normal 3 meals and split them up at the least; obviously the healthier the better). This will start to change your metobolism to always process food instead of storing it as fat. If a person only eats a couple times a day then the body is not sure when it will get food next so it stores it as fat rather than processing it. I would look into maybe protein shakes to help achieve this 2 hour eating and to also help gain/recover from your workout.

As for working out....push yourself always. If your workout is getting easy, then you need to up your weight or reps. Your body/muscles will get use to a workout so always change it up. If you aren't sweating, then you are most likelt not working out hard enough.

As mentioned before pre workout drinks like Jack3d helps to get you the extra energy to workout hard and also help with lean muscle gaining.
I eat a bowl of cereal for breakfast every day. Lunch really varies, sometimes I'll go out to eat and sometimes I'll come home and eat left overs. Dinner I'll usually eat some pasta or chicken or something. I don't really have the option of eating throughout the day unless it's just granola bars or something since I'm flying and in class for about 10 hours every day.

I think I'm also pretty limited to the supplements I can take since the Army has some pretty strict regulations on what pilots can take, but I'll look more into that.

I'm not looking to get huge, but I could definitely use some filling out.

[bulldog]

creatine can make you cramp up bad after long workouts... beware! lol ive been put on the ground by that stuff lol You are most likely cramping from being dehydrated and not the creatine since when using creatine you have to nearly double your water intake and most people don't.

I will drink at least two liters of water today just in the 8 hours at work.

[Keyser Soze]

creatine can make you cramp up bad after long workouts... beware! lol ive been put on the ground by that stuff lol


Not true. You were probably dehydrated. What type of creatine? Monohydrate will cause water bloat and if you're not drinking enough water you will have issues. Ethyl Esther less bloat but you should still hydrate like a mofo.

[Keyser Soze]

Damn! Ninja'd :lol:

[bulldog]

I drink a Whey protein shake after every workout but that's it other than a multivitamin everyday. I generally spend about an hour to an hour and a half in the gym.

I mean I'll separate different muscle groups every day like lower and upper, but unless I'm feeling crappy I always run a couple miles. I usually work out Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. I don't work out Wednesdays because I'm usually studying for a test and I occasionally work out Saturdays.

I eat a bowl of cereal for breakfast every day. Lunch really varies, sometimes I'll go out to eat and sometimes I'll come home and eat left overs. Dinner I'll usually eat some pasta or chicken or something. I don't really have the option of eating throughout the day unless it's just granola bars or something since I'm flying and in class for about 10 hours every day.

I think I'm also pretty limited to the supplements I can take since the Army has some pretty strict regulations on what pilots can take, but I'll look more into that.

I'm not looking to get huge, but I could definitely use some filling out. My bet is you are not taking enough protein in, which is not allowing your body to build the muscle you are getting at the gym; they say at least 1 gram for every pound on you; more if you want to gain. I would say to try to eat a couple protein bars or protein shakes; one between breakfast and lunch, other between lunch and dinner.
I like Labrada protein bars and they taste almost like a candy bar http://labrada.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=protein_bars

Are you taking a men's multivitamin everyday?
Do you drink alcohol a lot?

[bulldog]

Damn! Ninja'd :lol: At least we said the same thing :lol:

[Keyser Soze]

Addressing thinks post...

You should be taking in 1 to 1.5 grams of protein per lb of lean body mass. There are calculators out there to help with this.

As far as workouts...everyone is different. Experiment. I try to get in and out in an hour. Makes it easy to stay pumped and focused. Too much time can actually hurt you're growth.

I used to be around the same weight, 150lbs. I'm up to 200/205 now. Shooting for 225.

I train day on day off.

Chest, tri's, shoulders, abs

Legs, abs,

Back, bi's, abs

Legs, abs

Repeat.

I keep it simple. Get in, get out and recover. Legs are key. Largest muscle group in your body and you'll produce more growth hormones naturally when you work em. Quality, not quantity is a good rule to live by. Make sure you're gettin good form and concentration, the rest will follow.

That's all I got for now. I'm sure Nate will chime in with some more good info

[grim]

After reading the reviews it looks like Jack3d is a creatine :piss: I cant stand that crap every time i ever took creatine all id do is retain water then as soon as i got off of it all of my size went bye bye like a water balloon. I take halo tren and other various things made by ACL and there new company power lab. But buyer beware anyone taking anything made by powerlab you need to make sure your taking pre and post cycle supplements as well and liver detox pills with the post otherwise you can destroy your liver. I started taking suplements and drinking whey protein in 2009 weighing in at 125 lbs worked out everyday ate healthy and alot and now im at 175lbs. Bulldog def knows what he is talking about and is very knowledgeable but if anyone wants more advice or a different perspective feel free to ask. Not all bodies and workouts are treated equally. Creatine works for alot of people but im one of those were it doesn't do squat.

2009




2010 most recent pic i have need to take a new one

[Zach929rr]

Not true. You were probably dehydrated. What type of creatine? Monohydrate will cause water bloat and if you're not drinking enough water you will have issues. Ethyl Esther less bloat but you should still hydrate like a mofo.

+1

Creatine was a regular supplement for me when I was power lifting in high school. No problems as long as proper hydration was maintained.

[Keyser Soze]

Oh, and Essential Fatty Acids. Often over looked as a supplement but very important. Not only for bodybuilding, but health in general. I recommend Flax seed oil and salmon oils. I take the flax by the table spoon and salmon in pill form.

[bulldog]

After reading the reviews it looks like Jack3d is a creatine I cant stand that crap every time i ever took creatine all id do is retain water then as soon as i got off of it all of my size went bye bye like a water balloon. I take halo tren and other various things made by ACL and there new company power lab. But buyer beware anyone taking anything made by powerlab you need to make sure your taking pre and post cycle supplements as well and liver detox pills with the post otherwise you can destroy your liver. I started taking suplements and drinking whey protein in 2009 weighing in at 125 lbs worked out everyday ate healthy and alot and now im at 175lbs. Bulldog def knows what he is talking about and is very knowledgeable but if anyone wants more advice or a different perspective feel free to ask. Not all bodies and workouts are treated equally. Creatine works for alot of people but im one of those were it doesn't do squat.

Well just remember there are about 7 different types of creatine; some are crap and will just lead to bloating and water gain. Here is a good article on the different types: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/creatine_nitric_oxide_build_muscle.htm (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/creatine_nitric_oxide_build_muscle.htm)

Oh Halotren by Power Labs! My favorite supplement ever! But also the most risky of anything I have ever taken. HaloTren should only be used by people that are very serious about working out and are not beginners and will do them safely; these are pre-cursers/pro-hormones! Never take these for more than two months straight and without the post-cycle supplements, liver regen, lots of water and NO alcohol. Serious DO NOT drink on these! Yes, I know people will say these are risky, but overall anyone bing drinking even once a week is probably doing more damage than pro-hormones will; not just kidneys either, alcohol can reduce testosterone by 25% in men and takes almost 7 days to raise (so you bing) drink even once a week, then your testosterone never is normal). Another good article on that http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/bigalcohol.htm (http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/bigalcohol.htm)

I agree with what Rob (Keyser Soze) said on legs! To many people overlook legs, but your upper body will not grow if it knows your legs will not support it. Easiest way to gain muscle mass and raise testosterone


Oh, and Essential Fatty Acids. Often over looked as a supplement but very important. Not only for bodybuilding, but health in general. I recommend Flax seed oil and salmon oils. I take the flax by the table spoon and salmon in pill form.
I take vitamins throughout the day instead of all at once since it is better to take them like that for better absorption.
Morning – 1 Optimen Multi Vitamin, one fish oil, one vitamin D, one colostrum, one glucostimine
Lunch - 1 Optimen Multi Vitamin, one fish oil, one colostrum, one glucostimine
Dinner - 1 Optimen Multi Vitamin, one fish oil, one glucostimine

[grim]

[FONT=Arial]Oh Halotren by Power Labs! My favorite supplement ever! But also the most risky of anything I have ever taken. HaloTren should only be used by people that are very serious about working out and are not beginners and will do them safely; these are pre-cursers/pro-hormones! Never take these for more than two months straight and without the post-cycle supplements, liver regen, lots of water and NO alcohol. Serious DO NOT drink on these! Yes, I know people will say these are risky, but overall anyone bing drinking even once a week is probably doing more damage than pro-hormones will; not just kidneys either, alcohol can reduce testosterone by 25% in men and takes almost 7 days to raise (so you bing) drink even once a week, then your testosterone never is normal). Another good article on that http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/bigalcohol.htm (http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/bigalcohol.htm)


DING DING YYYUP its a risky thing to take thats for sure but you will have amazing results very quickly you just need to make sure you know what your getting into when you take it. I also used TREN by ACL before the CEO was arrested and the company was shut down which Bulldog im sure you know why!! But when it was legal that stuff was intense didnt make the wife too happy my test levels were through the roof and i was a mean person to be around. Also Bulldog have you ever used Androbol by power labs its a great strength booster i did a two month cycle and had amazing results!

[Keyser Soze]

[FONT=Arial]I agree with what Rob (Keyser Soze) said on legs! To many people overlook legs, but your upper body will not grow if it knows your legs will not support it. Easiest way to gain muscle mass and raise testosterone

This and bioidentical test :D






[FONT=Arial]I take vitamins throughout the day instead of all at once since it is better to take them like that for better absorption.
Morning – 1 Optimen Multi Vitamin, one fish oil, one vitamin D, one colostrum, one glucostimine
Lunch - 1 Optimen Multi Vitamin, one fish oil, one colostrum, one glucostimine
Dinner - 1 Optimen Multi Vitamin, one fish oil, one glucostimine

I do the same. Fish oils spread out through the day and flax morning and night. Multi morning and late afternoon.

[puckstr]

[

I take vitamins throughout the day instead of all at once since it is better to take them like that for better absorption.
Morning – 1 Optimen Multi Vitamin, one fish oil, one vitamin D, one colostrum, one glucostimine
Lunch - 1 Optimen Multi Vitamin, one fish oil, one colostrum, one glucostimine
Dinner - 1 Optimen Multi Vitamin, one fish oil, one glucostimine


I take 6000mg Vitamin C, 2000mg Fish Oil and 2000mg Flax seed oil Daily
Currently not on any other supplements, trying to drop 10lbs of fat. Then I will go back on the Halotren.

[Keyser Soze]

I take 6000mg Vitamin C, 2000mg Fish Oil and 2000mg Flax seed oil Daily
Currently not on any other supplements, trying to drop 10lbs of fat. Then I will go back on the Halotren.

I've been reading a lot of intersting stuff on vitamin C. Certain amounts first thing in the morning will help the body burn fat. Supposedly it slows the tolerance of pre work out pump supplements too.

[Think]

My bet is you are not taking enough protein in, which is not allowing your body to build the muscle you are getting at the gym; they say at least 1 gram for every pound on you; more if you want to gain. I would say to try to eat a couple protein bars or protein shakes; one between breakfast and lunch, other between lunch and dinner.
I like Labrada protein bars and they taste almost like a candy bar http://labrada.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=protein_bars

Are you taking a men's multivitamin everyday?
Do you drink alcohol a lot?
I mean I just started working out again so I wasn't expecting any real mass gain this quickly. I'm just looking for the proper route to go about getting in good shape. Thanks for the link, I'll check that out.

As far as workouts...everyone is different. Experiment. I try to get in and out in an hour. Makes it easy to stay pumped and focused. Too much time can actually hurt you're growth.

I used to be around the same weight, 150lbs. I'm up to 200/205 now. Shooting for 225.
I'm 180ish now so I'm not super skinny anymore, but I'm definitely not big in the least.

Would you all recommend any of these routines?: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw1.htm

[bulldog]

I mean I just started working out again so I wasn't expecting any real mass gain this quickly. I'm just looking for the proper route to go about getting in good shape. Thanks for the link, I'll check that out.

I'm 180ish now so I'm not super skinny anymore, but I'm definitely not big in the least.

Would you all recommend any of these routines?: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw1.htm Bodybuilding.com always has good workouts, so I am sure those on there are great considering they were voted on by users. That site has people 10X more into fitness than me; which is kind of scary and sad. :lol:

I am still not 100% of your goal though. You trying to get bigger (muscle mass) or lose weight?

[Think]

Bodybuilding.com always has good workouts, so I am sure those on there are great considering they were voted on by users. That site has people 10X more into fitness than me; which is kind of scary and sad. :lol:

I am still not 100% of your goal though. You trying to get bigger (muscle mass) or lose weight?
Trying to get bigger and more filled out. Definitely don't want to lose weight. Went to the gym today starting a new routine and added a couple things. Weighed myself near the end and came in at 185. I was 180 early last week so I guess I'm making some progress.

[Keyser Soze]

Sold on Jack3d. Cheap and effective. No jitters or tingling hands. Just a solid workout.

Think, Bodybuilding.com has a killer deal on the gold stack(think that's what it's called). Whey, casein, and multi's. Might want to look into that to increase your daily protein.

[phoenixr2]

Sold on Jack3d. Cheap and effective. No jitters or tingling hands. Just a solid workout.

Think, Bodybuilding.com has a killer deal on the gold stack(think that's what it's called). Whey, casein, and multi's. Might want to look into that to increase your daily protein.
Have lemon-lime and Fruit punch Jak3d at the moment, not bad for pre workouts. :)

[Think]

Sold on Jack3d. Cheap and effective. No jitters or tingling hands. Just a solid workout.

Think, Bodybuilding.com has a killer deal on the gold stack(think that's what it's called). Whey, casein, and multi's. Might want to look into that to increase your daily protein.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/performancestack.html ?

[bulldog]

Trying to get bigger and more filled out. Definitely don't want to lose weight. Went to the gym today starting a new routine and added a couple things. Weighed myself near the end and came in at 185. I was 180 early last week so I guess I'm making some progress. I have talked about it in this thread, but I recommend to get big by eating a lot of calories, lifting heavy, limit cardio, etc to gain the mass. Then after lean it out to get rid of the fat, but keep most of the muscle. I have been doing this for a few years and went from 135 to 190; then now leaned it all down to about 175 where I want to be (lean and athletic compared to big and bulky). I think for people that have trouble gaining muscle mass this is a way to do it, because it is so hard to gain huge muscle mass and stay lean at the same time.

[Keyser Soze]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/performancestack.html ?

Yeah that's it. You're gonna be hard pressed beating that price. I know there are a couple places that used to match or beat bodybuilding.com's prices, but they're long gone. Out here in AZ that deal is a good 10 to 15 dollars cheaper

[Think]

I have talked about it in this thread, but I recommend to get big by eating a lot of calories, lifting heavy, limit cardio, etc to gain the mass. Then after lean it out to get rid of the fat, but keep most of the muscle. I have been doing this for a few years and went from 135 to 190; then now leaned it all down to about 175 where I want to be (lean and athletic compared to big and bulky). I think for people that have trouble gaining muscle mass this is a way to do it, because it is so hard to gain huge muscle mass and stay lean at the same time.
I've got to do cardio to get better run times on my PT test. I'm still eating a lot so hopefully I can still make some gains.

Yeah that's it. You're gonna be hard pressed beating that price. I know there are a couple places that used to match or beat bodybuilding.com's prices, but they're long gone. Out here in AZ that deal is a good 10 to 15 dollars cheaper
Thanks, I'll pick that up tonight.

[bulldog]

I've got to do cardio to get better run times on my PT test. I'm still eating a lot so hopefully I can still make some gains.

Thanks, I'll pick that up tonight.

In that case you are just going to have to take in even more protein then; I’d say 2 grams per lb of body weight. Sounds extreme, but it works. One thing with lots of cardio and training to gain mass is you have to take in extra calories because if the body doesn’t have enough calories to get you through all that cardio, then it starts to eat muscle; so you basically lose the muscle you just lifted to gain. This is why you will see most cyclists or runners are really small lean guys; plus the more muscle you have the more oxygen it takes to use them. I walk this fine line everyday to stay lean, but not lose muscle mass. So far I have been doing 10-15 minutes a day of elliptical with high resistance (high resistance helps muscle more than cardio) four days a week after lifting for one hour; no cardio on my fifth/sixth day when I do legs.

I know LoLo that recommended me to Jack3d is in the Army and he is ok to take it. It really seems to help with running and improved his times and mine, so you may want to look into that.

Also check out http://www.saveonsupplements.com/ they have good prices too and actually have two stores here in town; one on Kipling and Bowles next to that 24 Hour Fitness. Also use the Cassein protein mainly at night; it is a slow protein that is mainly used for that.

[Think]

In that case you are just going to have to take in even more protein then; I’d say 2 grams per lb of body weight. Sounds extreme, but it works. One thing with lots of cardio and training to gain mass is you have to take in extra calories because if the body doesn’t have enough calories to get you through all that cardio, then it starts to eat muscle; so you basically lose the muscle you just lifted to gain. This is why you will see most cyclists or runners are really small lean guys; plus the more muscle you have the more oxygen it takes to use them. I walk this fine line everyday to stay lean, but not lose muscle mass. So far I have been doing 10-15 minutes a day of elliptical with high resistance (high resistance helps muscle more than cardio) four days a week after lifting for one hour; no cardio on my fifth/sixth day when I do legs.

I know LoLo that recommended me to Jack3d is in the Army and he is ok to take it. It really seems to help with running and improved his times and mine, so you may want to look into that.

Also check out http://www.saveonsupplements.com/ they have good prices too and actually have two stores here in town; one on Kipling and Bowles next to that 24 Hour Fitness. Also use the Cassein protein mainly at night; it is a slow protein that is mainly used for that.
Army flight crews have different regulations on what we can and can't take than the regular Army. I'm pretty sure supplements like whey and casein are fine, but I'm not sure about those pre-workout supplements you all are talking about. But I'll still check it out and see. I'm actually in Alabama right now so I'll just have to order stuff since stores carrying any variety of supplements are few and far between.

[puckstr]

Has anyone ever taken ANDRODROL?
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/newandrodrol.html

[bulldog]

Has anyone ever taken ANDRODROL?
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/newandrodrol.html Think Grim on the above post was saying he took it. Halotren is about the only pro-hormone I have tried since it has worked for me and didn't give me side effects. Androdrol is suppose to be the highest PH Powerlab makes though. Just trying not to take PH more than twice a year to be safe. I bet it works well....

[puckstr]

Think Grim on the above post was saying he took it. Halotren is about the only pro-hormone I have tried since it has worked for me and didn't give me side effects. Androdrol is suppose to be the highest PH Powerlab makes though. Just trying not to take PH more than twice a year to be safe. I bet it works well....

At the price drop to $79.99 it looks interesting to try.
Also thank for reminding me that if I don't work my legs I will plateau and get stuck. Now my core (abs) that is my real Achilles' heel.

[phoenixr2]

Youre fine with Jak3d untill they ban 1,3 dimeth then it will be a no-no for military

[bulldog]

At the price drop to $79.99 it looks interesting to try.
Also thank for reminding me that if I don't work my legs I will plateau and get stuck. Now my core (abs) that is my real Achilles' heel. I have the P90x Ab ripper 3 on file if you want to try it; first workout that made my abs sore in years. I do it twice a week and only 16 minutes (of hell).

Puckster if you do try Androdrol let me know how it goes for sure!

[grim]

Has anyone ever taken ANDRODROL?
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/newandrodrol.html

I took ANDRODROL for two cycles a year ago it is very very effective and depending on your body as far as libido and test levels you may have side affects (increased anger, lower libido=no sex drive) you need to be carefull taking is also be advised ITS NO LONGER LEGAL!! If you pay attention to any bottle made by american cellular labs or power lab nutrition non of their products are reviewed by the FDA because you do not have to have it reviewed before you put it on a shelf. however once they are reviewed they are banned. Im not saying dont take it if you want to by all means go for it the stuff is great and worth the dollar just be sure you do you post cycles or your test levels and hormone levels will jump all over the place. and as bulldog said dont ever do more that 2 cycles in a 12 month period!.

[grim]

Has anyone ever taken ANDRODROL?
http://www.saveonsupplements.com/newandrodrol.html

Also to add to my above post ANDRODOL is not a size enhancing drug it is purely for strength so don't get mad and think its not working because you do not see any bulk gains that is not what it is designed to do! and be careful who you buy these supplements from I have never bought a supplement online and i never will. I have always gone to Max Muscle to get everything. you play a very high risk trusting the internet for something your putting in your body.

[puckstr]

Grim thanks for the info. ANDRODOL lost me at no sex drive.
Halotren has the plus side of no Rage and loads of WOOD

[Survivalism]

I am just getting back into lifting and decided to pick up some jack3d to try, this will be my first time trying anything pre workout, will report on how it works for me here in a few hours.

[grim]

Grim thanks for the info. ANDRODOL lost me at no sex drive.
Halotren has the plus side of no Rage and loads of WOOD

yea the no wood isnt guaranteed it's just one of the possible side effects. luckily i didn't have it but I've known. guy or two that it did. and there lady friends weren't very happy to say at the least.

[Survivalism]

My first workout with jack3d was pretty amazing, i experienced no side effects and my focus and lifts went way up.

Before i had to really push myself to get 2/2/2 pull ups, yesterday i was able to do 3/3/5, cant wait for tomorrow for upper body.

[grim]

My first workout with jack3d was pretty amazing, i experienced no side effects and my focus and lifts went way up.

Before i had to really push myself to get 2/2/2 pull ups, yesterday i was able to do 3/3/5, cant wait for tomorrow for upper body.

Where do you workout?

[Survivalism]

Where do you workout?

I work out at my house

[bulldog]

What about you Grim, where do you workout?

I am at 24 Hour Fitness at Belleview and Santa Fe

[grim]

What about you Grim, where do you workout?

I am at 24 Hour Fitness at Belleview and Santa Fe

I work out at two different 24 hours in the morning at the one on hampden and tamarac in denver then after work i go to the one on lincoln and oswego in englewood

[Shea]

My first workout with jack3d was pretty amazing, i experienced no side effects and my focus and lifts went way up.

Before i had to really push myself to get 2/2/2 pull ups, yesterday i was able to do 3/3/5, cant wait for tomorrow for upper body.

Yeah, have to say the stuff is pretty good. I've had it for about a week and a half and been putting on 5-10 pounds on each machine every 48 hours. No side-effects at all (other then feeling like I could throw a bus when I take it).

[grim]

Yeah, have to say the stuff is pretty good. I've had it for about a week and a half and been putting on 5-10 pounds on each machine every 48 hours. No side-effects at all (other then feeling like I could throw a bus when I take it).

Where are you guys getting this jak3d maybe i should give it a shot with it getting so many good reviews.

[Keyser Soze]

Where are you guys getting this jak3d maybe i should give it a shot with it getting so many good reviews.

GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, Hi-Health, or just about any other place that sells supplements.

My only complaint is I couldnt sleep that night.

[grim]

GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, Hi-Health, or just about any other place that sells supplements.

My only complaint is I couldnt sleep that night.

HAHAHAHA Sorry but thats kinda funny i imagine someone whos all jacked up on a shake just screaming SLLLEEEEEEEEP While lifting a car in each hand!! lmao

[Keyser Soze]

My co worker decribed it best...spent the night on swole patrol :lol:

[Survivalism]

Interesting you had trouble sleeping, i did not experience that with my first dose, if i can pull myself together to workout today like i should ill report back on that.

[grim]

Well im gonna pick some of this stuff up this Wknd and ill let you know how it goes for me. I usually have bad luck with creatine. Plus because my body has been on some hardcore stuff itll be interesting to see how good this stuff is.

[grim]

alright stand by folks this is gonna be a long one. So i called my dad up (retired professional bodybuilder) anid asked if he knew anything about this jack3d. He said that he wouldn't take it becuase it is not a muscle enhancer nor does it help get any gains whatsoever. So I then decided to go to the max muscle i get everything from and talk to the owner.

He said he does sell jack3d but he definitely did not recommend i take it and he in fact would never take it. He said and i quote "jack3d is basically cocain in powder form that you can drink" he advised that if your not overweight and you normally workout using any natural produced energy fro eating right as well as a good workout then this stuff can actually make you lose weight and or give you a heart attack! This product will not help you gain any muscle mass in any way! if you are overweight and you need something to help give you that energy or keep your endurance up while your working out so you can continue then this product is for you. The recommended amount to take of this stuff is not even a quarter of the amount of a normal creative you would take. thusly i did not buy this product.


however i did get something that you guys may want to try out. it's called gun powder it's a creatine and nitric oxide and as i had posted before i have had bad experiences with creatine but the owner highly recommended it even though it was a bit pricey. Yet it is a great muscle mass builder creatine without the water retention and significantly helps your workout. so i went ahead and bought it and drank it before i went to the gym. HOLY SHIT MAN!!! I definitely recommend you get this it was outstanding i felt like i had a much harder pump in my lifts and my recovery was outstanding. if your willing to pay the dollar for something that is safe and will definitely give you that boost in your workout i suggest you get this. again it's called gun powder made by PPN. I got mine at max muscle not sure who else sells it but there you go thats my review. hope it helps.

oh and after what I learned today about jack3d no wonder you couldn't sleep kesyer soze you were pumped full of cafine and all kinds of other crap.

[puckstr]

Creatine make me angry and hard to live with. My lady baned me from taking that stuff.

On another note: I just got in my Slendertone AB Flex belt. You know the ones on the infomercials. I got one from China for $25 with shipping included. Unpacked it charged it overnight, and this morning tried it out.

Holy Shit this sucker makes for some hard AB contractions. 7 different workout modes, light weight, and quality construction make this a great $25 dollar purchase. So far I am amazed and I am looking forward to see what the results will be.

[grim]

Creatine make me angry and hard to live with. My lady baned me from taking that stuff.

On another note: I just got in my Slendertone AB Flex belt. You know the ones on the infomercials. I got one from China for $25 with shipping included. Unpacked it charged it overnight, and this morning tried it out.

Holy Shit this sucker makes for some hard AB contractions. 7 different workout modes, light weight, and quality construction make this a great $25 dollar purchase. So far I am amazed and I am looking forward to see what the results will be.

You may want to try the gun power then it doesnt have a load of creatine in it its mostly nitric oxide to help the blood flow in order to give you a better pump and other amino acids to help your recovery.

[dragos13]

I've been using MRI Black Powder as a pre-workout drink. It works great with only 200mg of caffeine.

As for creatine, check out the new stuff. Creatine Hydrochloride. It doesn't cause water retention and will help with muscle build and recovery. I take GNC Amplified Creatine 189. 1 pill before and 1 pill after workout.

[Keyser Soze]

Interesting you had trouble sleeping, i did not experience that with my first dose, if i can pull myself together to workout today like i should ill report back on that.

Took it again last night. Was up at 5am yesterday and didnt get to bed till 4 this morning. Workout was fuckin awesome though :lol: I'm gonna swith to morning workouts

[Keyser Soze]

I've been using MRI Black Powder as a pre-workout drink. It works great with only 200mg of caffeine.

As for creatine, check out the new stuff. Creatine Hydrochloride. It doesn't cause water retention and will help with muscle build and recovery. I take GNC Amplified Creatine 189. 1 pill before and 1 pill after workout.

I take the GNC amplified as well. Been on it for a while. No bloat, no loading, and good results.

[Shea]

GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, Hi-Health, or just about any other place that sells supplements.

My only complaint is I couldnt sleep that night.

I made the mistake of taking it and working out after 7pm...didn't even feel like going to bed until 2am and even then it was a rough night. Switched to morning lifting with and evening cardio without and sleep pretty damn good.

[bulldog]

Weird, I've never had any sleeping problems from Jack3d; take it at 4:30pm, asleep by 10:00pm.

[grim]

Weird, I've never had any sleeping problems from Jack3d; take it at 4:30pm, asleep by 10:00pm.

Asleep by 10? Damn I'm prob younger than you and Im asleep by 8 30

[Shea]

Asleep by 10? Damn I'm prob younger than you and Im asleep by 8 30

lol, 18 going on 65? :p

Metabolisms are very curious things. As with everything, mileage might vary.

[bulldog]

Asleep by 10? Damn I'm prob younger than you and Im asleep by 8 30 Wow, that is early for a guy that is 26. I don't know I am up by 6:30, so getting 8 1/2 hours.

Looked into Gun Powder, but at a $80 price tag not sure I can afford that with how much I am in the gym.

We should try to meet up one day to lift and see if we can help eachother out. Currently at 6 days a week with Sat only day off; at Belleview and Santa Fe 24 Hour M-F 5-6:30 religiously!

[grim]

Wow, that is early for a guy that is 26. I don't know I am up by 6:30, so getting 8 1/2 hours.

Looked into Gun Powder, but at a $80 price tag not sure I can afford that with how much I am in the gym.

We should try to meet up one day to lift and see if we can help eachother out. Currently at 6 days a week with Sat only day off; at Belleview and Santa Fe 24 Hour M-F 5-6:30 religiously!

Yea we may be able to do a few days at your gym im asleep so early cause my kid is in bed at 7 and im up at 4:40am to hit the gym in the morning. You should consider the gun powder man its good stuff! and you dont have to do a full scoop. I workout twice a day once in the morning then once after work so i just take half a scoop in the morning half in the afternoon and im just fine.

[bulldog]

Yea we may be able to do a few days at your gym im asleep so early cause my kid is in bed at 7 and im up at 4:40am to hit the gym in the morning. You should consider the gun powder man its good stuff! and you dont have to do a full scoop. I workout twice a day once in the morning then once after work so i just take half a scoop in the morning half in the afternoon and im just fine. Cool, I am pretty much stuck to workout afterwork since I work M-F, so let me know when it works; if not I am also there on Sundays mid morning.

I'll have to see if I can get a sample pack of Gun Powder first to see how it effects me; I really think pre-workouts effect people differently. I've never had any issues with Jack3D and prefer the low caffeine (less than 100mg) and I know it has given me gains even if it was just to give me extra energy to workout harder. I've been aware for a while that Jack3d has a lot of stimulants in it, but I've never had any side effects and I actually get worse side effects from high levels of caffeine that some pre-workouts have (bad headaches). A bit shocked a pre-workout is going for $80 though...that is more than pro-hormones! Hopefully it will get more popular and bring the price down.

[bulldog]

Creatine make me angry and hard to live with. My lady baned me from taking that stuff.

On another note: I just got in my Slendertone AB Flex belt. You know the ones on the infomercials. I got one from China for $25 with shipping included. Unpacked it charged it overnight, and this morning tried it out.

Holy Shit this sucker makes for some hard AB contractions. 7 different workout modes, light weight, and quality construction make this a great $25 dollar purchase. So far I am amazed and I am looking forward to see what the results will be. Interested in this; I have a cheap system that uses the two pads and my abs have got sore from that before.

Puckstr, where did you get this for $25???
Amazon is showing $110.00; hook a brother up!
http://www.amazon.com/Slendertone-Mens-Abdominal-Toning-System/dp/B0006JJFOC

[grim]

Cool, I am pretty much stuck to workout afterwork since I work M-F, so let me know when it works; if not I am also there on Sundays mid morning.

I'll have to see if I can get a sample pack of Gun Powder first to see how it effects me; I really think pre-workouts effect people differently. I've never had any issues with Jack3D and prefer the low caffeine (less than 100mg) and I know it has given me gains even if it was just to give me extra energy to workout harder. I've been aware for a while that Jack3d has a lot of stimulants in it, but I've never had any side effects and I actually get worse side effects from high levels of caffeine that some pre-workouts have (bad headaches). A bit shocked a pre-workout is going for $80 though...that is more than pro-hormones! Hopefully it will get more popular and bring the price down.

Yea its pretty steep but well worth the price. If you go to max muscle they will let you sample it. And the gun powder doesnt have much caffeine in it. Also as far as gains i started taking the gun powder on thurs slacked off and didnt lift on saturday but i did gain 2.3 lbs since thurs and my weight stays very very steady unless im taking something. We can shoot for this sunday if thats ok with you ill call your 24 hour and see if they will let me slide for one day since i already have a membership to two of their sports.

[Keyser Soze]

That GunPowder looks good. Not much info on the ingredients though. What kind of creatine is it? Any caffeine? $80 is steep.

[grim]

That GunPowder looks good. Not much info on the ingredients though. What kind of creatine is it? Any caffeine? $80 is steep.

yea theres a little bit of caffeine not much though ill take a pic of the ingredients and post it for you guys when i get home!

[bulldog]

That GunPowder looks good. Not much info on the ingredients though. What kind of creatine is it? Any caffeine? $80 is steep.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121909941
http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad216/mminguela/gunpowder_facts.jpg

The only thing that worries me is a lot of time places like Max Muscle is going to push a product that they make the most profit on or are in partnership with that company. I don't see much in here that hasn't been in other PW for years; especially for $80.

EDIT: Proprietary Blend, so we will never know exactly what is in it to compare :(

[Keyser Soze]

Di creatine malate...isnt that just monohydrate? Only thing I see that this has over Jack3d is glutamine. You can supplement glutamine on top of jacked for less that $80

Wonder how much caffeine is in the "proprietary blend"

[Shea]

What do you guys eat pre-workout? Last couple weeks I have been finding myself running out of steam near the 2/3 point in my workout. I'm thinking I need to get some more energy into my system prior to. Any suggestions?

[grim]

What do you guys eat pre-workout? Last couple weeks I have been finding myself running out of steam near the 2/3 point in my workout. I'm thinking I need to get some more energy into my system prior to. Any suggestions?

When i workout in the morning im just running on my gun powder pre workout shake but in the afternoon i eat these nature valley chewy trail mix bars the fruit and nut ones that def help me out you can buy em in bulk at sams or small boxes anywhere. evem single bars in gas stations. but everyone is different i also eat about 5 times a day so....

[Shea]

When i workout in the morning im just running on my gun powder pre workout shake but in the afternoon i eat these nature valley chewy trail mix bars the fruit and nut ones that def help me out you can buy em in bulk at sams or small boxes anywhere. evem single bars in gas stations. but everyone is different i also eat about 5 times a day so....

Yeah I eat every three hours +/-. Just feeling like I need a bit more endurance to make it through my workout. Granted, Jack3D has me pushing pretty hard for 90 minutes or so, I might just need to scale back a bit.

[grim]

Yeah I eat every three hours +/-. Just feeling like I need a bit more endurance to make it through my workout. Granted, Jack3D has me pushing pretty hard for 90 minutes or so, I might just need to scale back a bit.

Try throwing in some noodles in your lunch carbs will def help you out.

[Keyser Soze]

My pre workout shake consists of a baked sweet potato, milk, protein powder, and peanut butter. Blend it all up and it's pretty tastey. Lotta good starchy carbs. Sweet taters are loaded with good shit. Post work out I go with a protein shake and some white grape juice to restore glycogen.

[grim]

^^^

Im not gonna lie man im kinda pissed i dont have your Forum name cause that shit cracks me up every time i see it!

[bulldog]

What do you guys eat pre-workout? Last couple weeks I have been finding myself running out of steam near the 2/3 point in my workout. I'm thinking I need to get some more energy into my system prior to. Any suggestions?
What I have found works best for me is to eat a late lunch instead of eating before working out. So at about 2:30 (I eat every two hours non-stop till then) so when I get home about 4:30 I take my preworkout like Jack3d and am not really hungry still because of the late lunch, but my stomach is also empty enough for the preworkout drink to work. If I start to feel hungry during my workout I just pound water.

Pretty much right when I get done working out I mix frozen fruit with a protein shake as I am starving at that point. I’ve tried eating before working out and it always makes me feel full in the gym or doesn’t allow the preworkout to work well..

[puckstr]

My pre workout shake consists of a baked sweet potato, milk, protein powder, and peanut butter. Blend it all up and it's pretty tastey. Lotta good starchy carbs. Sweet taters are loaded with good shit. Post work out I go with a protein shake and some white grape juice to restore glycogen.


Damn that does sound good. Right now I am pissed I forgot to bring a can opener to work... no tuna fish for me today.

[grim]

Damn that does sound good. Right now I am pissed I forgot to bring a can opener to work... no tuna fish for me today.

be a man use your teeth

[puckstr]

be a man use your teeth


Believe me, I can skip a meal

[gtn]

I like to eat a Cliffs Builder on the way to the gym. Pretty good balance of protein, fat, and carbs. Seems to hold me until just the end, then I go out to the truck and grab my protein shake out of the cooler.

[3D]

I work out mon-friday and sometimes on sunday (depending on how I feel) at the 24hr Fitness on Southgate in the Springs. Anyone else go there? As far as supplements go, I currently am taking the GNC Sport Multi-Vitamin one a day in the mornings, Jack3d for a pre-workout and recently switched my protein to the GNC AMP Wheybolic Extreme about 2 months ago. I love the Jack3d, crazy energy and gains, although it makes me sweat like crazy. The Wheybolic Extreme is an excellent protein. Very happy with the switch.

[Shea]

Believe me, I can skip a meal

Yeah, unfortunately he is around 300 pounds and 40% body fat...poor guy. You should probably skip more then one meal buddy :p

[grim]

Yeah, unfortunately he is around 300 pounds and 40% body fat...poor guy. You should probably skip more then one meal buddy :p

lol welcome to ouchtown population...you!

[grim]

Damn that does sound good. Right now I am pissed I forgot to bring a can opener to work... no tuna fish for me today.

mmmm tuna fish (opened)

[Think]

So my left shoulder started bothering me Sunday, not sure why as I didn't lift or do anything strenuous over the weekend. Went to the gym yesterday and benched and did some shrugs without issue. Tried to do some barbell military presses with just the barbell to see how my should would feel and it didn't feel too bad. Put 25's on both sides which I can normally pretty easily do and I got a real sharp pain in my shoulder. Pain is just a dull pain today unless I move my arm in certain directions. Really pissed now because I was just getting into a nice groove with my workouts.

[grim]

So my left shoulder started bothering me Sunday, not sure why as I didn't lift or do anything strenuous over the weekend. Went to the gym yesterday and benched and did some shrugs without issue. Tried to do some barbell military presses with just the barbell to see how my should would feel and it didn't feel too bad. Put 25's on both sides which I can normally pretty easily do and I got a real sharp pain in my shoulder. Pain is just a dull pain today unless I move my arm in certain directions. Really pissed now because I was just getting into a nice groove with my workouts.


The shoulder is comprised of a lot of muscles so it could be any number of things. Be careful pay attention to your rotations in your arm when the pain starts and if it gets worst I suggest you see a doctor. I'm missing a major muscle in my left shoulder due to surgery and 3 years ago I dislocated my right shoulder and it has never been the same since.