Wisconsin Senate

[The GECCO]

Irony can be so ironic...

For those not following the story - like most states, Wisconsin is basically broke. The Governor introduced a "budget repair bill" into the state Senate that included removing union bargaining power from most state employed workers, allowing the state to renegotiate their benefits packages as a way to reduce the states payroll expenses. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just trying to state the facts of what's been going on.

So, the Democratic members of the Senate knew they would lose the vote on this bill, so their solution was to leave the state, going to Illinois and staying in a hotel. The logic behind this is that without their presence, there is no quorum and a quorum is necessary to take a vote on any measure that spends money (as the budget repair bill would). They have been gone for three weeks, despite repeated requests to return and discuss the issue.

The remaining (ie, Republican) members of the Senate changed the language of the bill to remove any expenditures (ie, no quorum necessary) and kept only the language that removes the state unions bargaining power, and put it up for a vote. It passed 18-1. The protesters in the gallery before/after vote screamed that the Senators were "cowards" and now the Democrats are rushing back to Wisconsin to "join the people of Wisconsin in taking back their government"

Wow....I don't know where to start with this one...

[Sean]

.

[TinkerinWstuff]

I grew up in MN and lived in WI for many years before migrating to CO. Still own a property in WI I haven't been able to sell as of yet.

I think it's gutless, ridiculous, and lacks honor to flee the state just because you can't get your way. The republicans took their lickins when they were the minority and health care passed (federal). And now that they are a majority, they attempt to change the law again.

There's no honor in parlor tricks to circumvent the rules - it happens on both sides all the time but this one takes the cake. GET BACK TO WORK!

[CaneZach]

The State of Wisconsin created an entitlement state. Their employees pay ZERO into their retirement, but the unions would rather bankrupt the state instead of seeing that change. I think Wisconsin is asking their employees to begin contributing something small, like 5%. In comparison, I've had to increase my contribution to my retirement by 5% over the last two years, which means I'm now contributing either 12.5% or 15% now (I'm not sure which).

Naturally, this has become the liberal cause du jour, which explains the irony of their leaders refusing to vote, running to another state, then screaming "cowards" at others.

[Skinbabe]

Does it matter that getting rid of unions doesnt change the budget any? Unions are gone, the budget is still the same?? And the way they made it pass with out needed the Dems there was to take out any language that had any thing to do with finances? That and the entire meeting was illegal with out the 24 hour notice per WI state law... but no one cares about that... just let the Republicans do what ever they want... in fact, let them pass a bill that will allow one person "emergency power" and in that power let them get rid of politicians and pass laws as they feel is "best". Sounds great... I think I will move there (insert sarcasm here)

[jbnwc]

The State of Wisconsin created an entitlement state. Their employees pay ZERO into their retirement, but the unions would rather bankrupt the state instead of seeing that change. I think Wisconsin is asking their employees to begin contributing something small, like 5%. In comparison, I've had to increase my contribution to my retirement by 5% over the last two years, which means I'm now contributing either 12.5% or 15% now (I'm not sure which).

Naturally, this has become the liberal cause du jour, which explains the irony of their leaders refusing to vote, running to another state, then screaming "cowards" at others.

Amen! What do you do with such crybabies? They want everything handed to them and the second you ask them to work for something, they scream and pout like 3 year olds. Despicable. They all need to be put in a corner with their nose to the wall and treated like the whiney little brats that they are.

[jbnwc]

Does it matter that getting rid of unions doesnt change the budget any? Unions are gone, the budget is still the same?? And the way they made it pass with out needed the Dems there was to take out any language that had any thing to do with finances? That and the entire meeting was illegal with out the 24 hour notice per WI state law... but no one cares about that... just let the Republicans do what ever they want... in fact, let them pass a bill that will allow one person "emergency power" and in that power let them get rid of politicians and pass laws as they feel is "best". Sounds great... I think I will move there (insert sarcasm here)

Let me rephrase what the Wisconsin liberals did here:
"If I can't win, I'm taking my ball and going home!! hmph!"

[TinkerinWstuff]

Does it matter that

No, it doesn't. The dems should have stayed and done the job they were elected to do.

Besides that, It's time unions quit holding people hostage.

[Skinbabe]

Let me rephrase what the Wisconsin liberals did here:
"If I can't win, I'm taking my ball and going home!! hmph!"
Does it matter that it's not was the majority of people in WI want?? Guess they should have thought of that at voting time, but still.

[Skinbabe]

Besides that, It's time unions quit holding people hostage.

What about all that unions DO to help employees??

[TinkerinWstuff]

What about all that unions DO to help employees??

Right. What they do is price their employees out of a job. Look at the big three auto makers, Northwest airline mechanics, shall I go on?

I've worked in unions. I'm not just speaking off the cuff here. I also met with a gentleman last week who started the Toolmakers union in MN. Even he said unions have gone too far.

[TinkerinWstuff]

Unions are a business for profit. They sit there and collect everyone's money, protect the dirtball lazy guy from being fired for cause, and then run in thumping their chest and holding the employer hostage at bargaining time. Meanwhile, the wages become uncompetitive with the rest of the country and eventually the jobs go over seas.

[jbnwc]

Unions are a business for profit. They sit there and collect everyone's money, protect the dirtball lazy guy from being fired for cause, and then run in thumping their chest and holding the employer hostage at bargaining time. Meanwhile, the wages become uncompetitive with the rest of the country and eventually the jobs go over seas.

Unions served a purpose in the 1800's and they might be good to have in modern day China, but the ONLY thing they bring to modern American is economic ruin.

[dirkterrell]

Thomas Sowell just wrote a column that I found interesting:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/03/08/union_myths_109142.html

Dirk

[TinkerinWstuff]

Unions served a purpose in the 1800's and they might be good to have in modern day China, but the ONLY thing they bring to modern American is economic ruin.

Agreed 100%. Unions brought attention to the worker when only the powerful could get any attention or favor in government. People banded together, held the employer hostage, and got fair treatment.

Today, in the 24hr instant media age, someone is always looking to bring the latest scandal to a TV or smartphone near you, unions are no longer needed.

[jbnwc]

Does it matter that it's not was the majority of people in WI want?? Guess they should have thought of that at voting time, but still.

If they really want something, they need to talk with their representatives and try to make a logical(ha!) argument for whatever it is that they want. Instead, they are crying and pouting and leaving the discussion table. This is not how adults should act. Especially those that are supposed to be "leaders". What the WI liberals did is reprehensible.

[jbnwc]

Thomas Sowell just wrote a column that I found interesting:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/03/08/union_myths_109142.html

Dirk

Thomas Sowell is my hero. That guy has more logic and reason in his little toe than most of us ever dreamed of having.

[TinkerinWstuff]

Michael Moore has joined the fight encouraging students to leave school.


Michael Moore is enraged after the Wisconsin State Senate voted to strip public unions of the ability to collectively bargain. Speaking on MSNBC's "Rachel Maddow Show," Moore said "they think they can get away with this."

Moore also calls for a "student walk-out" across the nation on Friday in response to the Wisconsin vote.

"This has to continue day after day and these governors have to step down," Moore declared.

"The rich have committed these crimes and the people will demand your ass is in jail," Michael Moore said with a pair of handcuffs on the set of Maddow's show.

Moore also shocked the audience by telling the rich and bankers that "we have a right to your money!"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/09/michael_moore_reacts_to_wisconsin_union_vote_this_ is_war.html

[dirkterrell]

Moore also shocked the audience by telling the rich and bankers that "we have a right to your money!"

Hey, maybe we should demand that he give us some of his money. http://www.boulder.swri.edu/%7Eterrell/images/goofy.gif

Dirk

[Shea]

What about all that unions DO to help employees??

Could you quantify this?

[CaneZach]

On an aside, a majority of America didn't want Obama screwing with healthcare. I don't see that stopping him. Children want to ignore homework and eat nothing but candy and McDonalds, but parents don't let them.

The governor is responsible for ensuring the state can function. He isn't responsible for bending to the will of the unions who would fiddle while Rome burned. The unions in Wisconsin are like a child who would rather get a penny today than a nickel tomorrow. They would rather bankrupt the future than sacrifice for the greater good, which is incredibly hypocritical considering the liberals are all about what's best for the "greater good", until THEY'RE the ones who have to sacrifice.

[TinkerinWstuff]

What about all that unions DO to help employees??


(insert sarcasm here)


Fixed it








Sorry, all in fun. I know it's a serious topic but I couldn't resist

[TinkerinWstuff]

hrm...

I just wondered. The senate didn't give notice on their vote of the amended bill. Not sure if that will matter with regard to the legality of the procedure or not. But I wondered if it was just a ploy to get the Dems to come back to work. Once they show up back in the hall, maybe there can be a vote on the original bill and the state will have a quorum?

[Canuck]

Could you quantify this?

-Provide a basis for work structure. More specifically a system for work skill(s). Apprenticeships, Journymen, Foremen, etc.

-Education and Training associated with these status'. Must prove with training and experience your worth and skill level.

-Cheaper health care. As a collective bargaining group, they can reduce the overall costs while increasing the quality of care by the strength of said Union.

-Provide a more livible wage. This can be subjective, since some Unions are overpaid and some arent getting that much more than the minimum wage. This is also a two way street. Yes, I agree that the UAW of old were way over compensated. But the car manufactorers aren't innocent in agreeing with those costs, especially when there products were inferior to most of the competition.

-Provide a representative to work conditions, safety and other work related issues. This I also subjective as I can say that my Local is very weak in the representation of us to the contractors. It is better to have this than nothing at all.


Unlike what the college drop out Walker has stated, Wisconsin isn't "Broke" (http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/mar/03/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-wisconsin-broke/).

The public sector unions already agreed to the cuts that were proposed, but that wasn't good enough for the Plutocrats (Koch Co, etc) that are behind this. It's simply union busting. An opportunity to roll back worker rights that we all enjoy. The loss of collective bargaining is what started these protests.

[TinkerinWstuff]

An opportunity to roll back worker rights that we all enjoy.

We? Who's we? As I've said, I worked in Union shops and non-Union. My opportunities have been much better in non-Union shops.

As I've said - if your work place has sub standard work conditions or worker safety issues, OSHA or Channel 9 news is foaming at the mouth to stand up for you.

[TinkerinWstuff]

Not only that, neither OSHA nor Channel 9 news will charge you a weekly fee to expose workplace conditions. AND they won't get in your way of promotion when you're willing to work harder than the deadbeat beside you with more "seniority".

[jbnwc]

-Provide a basis for work structure. More specifically a system for work skill(s). Apprenticeships, Journymen, Foremen, etc.

-Education and Training associated with these status'. Must prove with training and experience your worth and skill level.

-Cheaper health care. As a collective bargaining group, they can reduce the overall costs while increasing the quality of care by the strength of said Union.

-Provide a more livible wage. This can be subjective, since some Unions are overpaid and some arent getting that much more than the minimum wage. This is also a two way street. Yes, I agree that the UAW of old were way over compensated. But the car manufactorers aren't innocent in agreeing with those costs, especially when there products were inferior to most of the competition.

-Provide a representative to work conditions, safety and other work related issues. This I also subjective as I can say that my Local is very weak in the representation of us to the contractors. It is better to have this than nothing at all.


Unlike what the college drop out Walker has stated, Wisconsin isn't "Broke" (http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/mar/03/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-wisconsin-broke/).

The public sector unions already agreed to the cuts that were proposed, but that wasn't good enough for the Plutocrats (Koch Co, etc) that are behind this. It's simply union busting. An opportunity to roll back worker rights that we all enjoy. The loss of collective bargaining is what started these protests.

My company doesn't have any unions and we do all of this and much much more at a more efficient pace and still get the best products for the price to our clients. My company is consistently ranked in the top 10 companies in the world for benefits and it's all without the hindrance of any union. If you don't like your company, get a job at a competitor who has better pay/benefits. If you want better pay/benefits where you are at, work your ass off and EARN it.

[Canuck]

We? Who's we? As I've said, I worked in Union shops and non-Union. My opportunities have been much better in non-Union shops.

Good for you. That is your choice an I have no problem with that. Since you are using epirical evidence, I can state that mine are the opposite of your experiences.


As I've said - if your work place has sub standard work conditions or worker safety issues, OSHA or Channel 9 news is foaming at the mouth to stand up for you.

:spit: ok. If you are willing to believe that a goverent agency and an entertainment "news" channel is willing to stick up for you more so than looking after their own self interests, I have a bridge to sell you that runs between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

[Canuck]

My company doesn't have any unions and we do all of this and much much more at a more efficient pace and still get the best products for the price to our clients. My company is consistently ranked in the top 10 companies in the world for benefits and it's all without the hindrance of any union. If you don't like your company, get a job at a competitor who has better pay/benefits. If you want better pay/benefits where you are at, work your ass off and EARN it.

:applause: I'm proud of you for being special by working your ass off. I can say the same for the company that I work with. Myself recieving 10% above scale (by my own negotiation) must mean that I'm not as valuable to the company that I work with as you are. Damn :(

[jbnwc]

Not only that, neither OSHA nor Channel 9 news will charge you a weekly fee to expose workplace conditions. AND they won't get in your way of promotion when you're willing to work harder than the deadbeat beside you with more "seniority".

Forget OSHO or Channel 9. If your ladder is unsafe, fix it, buy a new one, or do something about it instead of whining like a baby. One reason I got recruited by several client companies and colleagues in the middle of this "job recession" is because I work my ass off and take some initiative when things need to get done. I don't wait for some union boss or someone else to fix everything; I do it myself. If we need new training, I write it and implement it. If we need additional resources, I write the proposal and make my case for it. There is a reason the only way these union employees get anything is through threats and harassment - if they were actually decent workers, they would already be getting what they want.

[TinkerinWstuff]

:spit: ok. If you are willing to believe that a goverent agency and an entertainment "news" channel is willing to stick up for you more so than looking after their own self interests, I have a bridge to sell you that runs between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

That's the point - it is in their interest to stick up for you. First off OSHA gets it's funding through finding workplace violations and the fines associated with them. They have a profit motive to stick up for you - and non union people as well.

Same with the "news" channel. They are always looking for the next smoking gun to plaster across the 10pm news. If there's something wrong in a workplace, it's worth ratings to them to broadcast it.

So, if your complaints are founded, there are agencies and people in place to stick up for the common man. If you're just a complainer, then life is just rough.

(and when I say "you", I'm using the term in general with regard to the debate and not intended as any personal attack or accusation. Since I've never met you, I have no idea about you or your work ethic etc... :guinness:)

[jbnwc]

:applause: I'm proud of you for being special by working your ass off. I can say the same for the company that I work with. Myself recieving 10% above scale (by my own negotiation) must mean that I'm not as valuable to the company that I work with as you are. Damn :(

:wtf:

If you negotiated your pay, what is the problem? Did your union negotiate for you? How is it that you feel less valuable if you are getting paid better than your colleagues?

[jbnwc]

(and when I say "you", I'm using the term in general with regard to the debate and not intended as any personal attack or accusation. Since I've never met you, I have no idea about you or your work ethic etc... :guinness:)

+1

[Shea]

-Provide a basis for work structure. More specifically a system for work skill(s). Apprenticeships, Journymen, Foremen, etc.

-Education and Training associated with these status'. Must prove with training and experience your worth and skill level.

-Cheaper health care. As a collective bargaining group, they can reduce the overall costs while increasing the quality of care by the strength of said Union.

-Provide a more livible wage. This can be subjective, since some Unions are overpaid and some arent getting that much more than the minimum wage. This is also a two way street. Yes, I agree that the UAW of old were way over compensated. But the car manufactorers aren't innocent in agreeing with those costs, especially when there products were inferior to most of the competition.

-Provide a representative to work conditions, safety and other work related issues. This I also subjective as I can say that my Local is very weak in the representation of us to the contractors. It is better to have this than nothing at all.



All of which do not require a union, union dues or union "management". We will never see eye-to-eye on unions Canuck. It comes down to an understanding of one's own power and "marketability", unions take that away from the individual and ensconce it in the "collective". Then they extort businesses under threats of shutting them down. If I did that I would go to jail, but if a union does it it's called "collective bargaining".

The facts are that union members, specifically public sector union members are bankrupting state and local governments, for no quantifiable benefit. Is there increased productivity by having wages and benefits twice that of private sector workers? No. Is there increased efficiency? Go to the DMV and let me know.

If, and it's in the realm of fantasy "ifs", unions provided businesses with increased productivity, efficiency and better products, they would be falling over themselves to get one. The dwindling power and membership is clear evidence that they bring nothing to the table but higher costs, insanely ridiculous demands/workplace rules and breed an "us-vs-them" mentality.

"... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...

"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."

-Franklin D. Roosevelt 1937

[TinkerinWstuff]

:applause: I'm proud of you for being special by working your ass off. I can say the same for the company that I work with. Myself recieving 10% above scale (by my own negotiation) must mean that I'm not as valuable to the company that I work with as you are. Damn :(


:wtf:

If you negotiated your pay, what is the problem? Did your union negotiate for you? How is it that you feel less valuable if you are getting paid better than your colleagues?

Seems kind of anti-union to me and maybe a little too "free market". How can you be all for one and one for all if you're going behind the backs of the "all" and negotiating a higher wage? Where's the collective?

[rforsythe]

Seems kind of anti-union to me and maybe a little too "free market". How can you be all for one and one for all if you're going behind the backs of the "all" and negotiating a higher wage? Where's the collective?

What's wrong with negotiating a higher wage if you've earned it? Who said it was "all about the collective and damn the higher achievers"? If I worked in a union I would do as little as f'n possible to keep my job, because there would be zero incentive to do otherwise - I'd still get raises and promotions just as much as the other guy, because it's "all for one".

[Bueller]

If I worked in a union I would do as little as f'n possible to keep my job, because there would be zero incentive to do otherwise - I'd still get raises and promotions just as much as the other guy, because it's "all for one".

Then what you are saying is that you are essentially a lazy slug who needs constant supervision? Why would you be any different in the non union sector.

There are these people in unions, there are also many more proud members that take their jobs seriously. The problem with most unions is not the rank and file, it is the leadership and failure to change with the times.

[Canuck]

Seems kind of anti-union to me and maybe a little too "free market". How can you be all for one and one for all if you're going behind the backs of the "all" and negotiating a higher wage? Where's the collective?

It's not going behind the backs of my fellow members. How is it immoral to negotiate a higher wage package than what I'm contractually set to receive. The Collective Bargaining bit is a basic standard that, given certain criteria is met, the employer cannot go below that for said worker.
I'm in a skilled trade. My skills are in demand and I am paid (quite well in fact) for them. This is pretty typical in the trade unions. They set a minimum with pay and benefits, if the standards are met by the worker. If the worker can bargain go a higher package, more power to him/her. I know a few guys that get a lot more than I do, but you know what...they deserve it.
There are plenty of non-union "techs" that I run into everyday, whether it's at the supply houses or repairing their fuck ups on the job sites, that don't have a clue in doing my trade. The biggest asset that my union can offer to the contractors is education and training. We are way above par conpaired to most of the non-union side with knowlege and efficiency. That alone makes us more valuable than a non-union shop can dream of. My contractor can leave out of our local and break contract. He hasn't and won't. What does that say?

[jbnwc]

What's wrong with negotiating a higher wage if you've earned it? Who said it was "all about the collective and damn the higher achievers"? If I worked in a union I would do as little as f'n possible to keep my job, because there would be zero incentive to do otherwise - I'd still get raises and promotions just as much as the other guy, because it's "all for one".

You and every other union worker.

[rforsythe]

Then what you are saying is that you are essentially a lazy slug who needs constant supervision? Why would you be any different in the non union sector.

There are these people in unions, there are also many more proud members that take their jobs seriously. The problem with most unions is not the rank and file, it is the leadership and failure to change with the times.

No, I work my ass off. But there is a difference between taking my job seriously vs going well above and beyond, and most people will only do the latter if there's a point to doing it.

The tone is set from the top down, and if there's no point to setting yourself apart through achievement then most aren't going to bother. Sorry if you took my response as some sort of "union people suck" comment, but that wasn't what I was saying. I agree that most of the problems with the unions surrounds the leadership, but that's also why nothing is going to change without force.

[TransNone13]

Hmm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM&feature=player_embedded

[Keyser Soze]

Hmm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM&feature=player_embedded

God damn that bitch is annoying.

[Canuck]

Excellent insight Rob. Tell us how you really feel.

[Canuck]

Hmm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM&feature=player_embedded

The Plutocracy is taking over. It's the late 19th century all over again.

[salsashark]

Oh I love it...

The right is always screaming about the distribution of wealth and how the left wants to bring everyone down into serfdom... Punish those who work and save, take their money and give it to those too lazy to do so for themselves.

The left is always screaming about the raping of our country by the right in order to retain wealth and power... The big bad corporations and 12 old white guys control all the money! We must take it and redistribute the wealth so everyone is equal.


Meanwhile, our ELECTED GOVERNMENT is busy stealing our money and laughing all the way to the bank. They don't care about left or right. It's two sides of the same coin. And until our country as a whole realizes that there's more to life the red and blue, they will continue to take from us all. So please, return to your happy little bitch fest. It's been a while since we've had a completely pointless drama filled thread on the CSC.

As long as your busy squabbling amongst yourselves, they can be left to do so as they please.

[Canuck]

^ +1. But sadly this country is full of Ideologues and I don't see it changing.

[Keyser Soze]

Excellent insight Rob. Tell us how you really feel.

I have my opinions on the issue....and I'm pretty sure you know what they are :D That bitch is still annoying.

[edj]

So all these greedy union members agreed to give into all the governors economic demands and still he wants to remove collective bargaining. You guys don't even seem to be debating the real issues.

I thought that 'bitch' was Keith Olberman in drag.

[Finklestein87]

Looks as though you guys have a good take on whats going on here, and many good arguments have been made.

My dad has worked for the City of Milwaukee the last 15 or more years. Take my word for it, the benefits are amazing. Top notch care centers, NO COPAYS, NO Deductible, NO monthly pay-in, FULL pension without paying in a dime, and more to the list. Dental and health benefits extend to family members, NO PAYMENT REQUIRED.

My dad understands they have it good and understands the dire state this State is in. Cuts have to be made, and union workers need to start paying into the system that benefits them sooo much.

Another big thing is Union Dues. $20 is deducted from each paycheck, going straight to union bosses, then into the hands of democrats. My dad has no say in this, and when you multiply that by thousands of state and city workers, you have a lot of money.

[DFab]

Top notch care centers, NO COPAYS, NO Deductible, NO monthly pay-in, FULL pension without paying in a dime, and more to the list. Dental and health benefits extend to family members, NO PAYMENT REQUIRED.

Pensions are deferred compensation, not free money. Your father's pension is 100% money he earned.

link (http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2011/02/deferred_compensation_and_pensions)

[Canuck]

Yep. I pay into my pension each hour I work. Mine amounts to $5.15 per hr out of my check.

Good article.