Tire Warmers Neccesary?

[675Rider]

I know this has been brought up here and there in other threads but I wanted to start a dedicated thread to this. I was looking around online on other sites and came across some interesting info/statements and wanted to get some of your views on the subject.

Obviously Im wondering if you feel they are necessary for race tires. Ive heard several opinions. That it is good to warm them up for about an hour before your first session to get them close to operating temp and that they are not really necessary after that except to perhaps just wrap them but not turn them on or just not even put them on. Some say to turn them on low between sessions. Some say if you just take a few laps to get some heat into them by accelerating and braking hard before pushing them in the turns. Im sure its different for racing and track day applications. Racing Im sure you want a hot tire right off the bat and I could see the validity of using them. However, are they really necessary for track day riders? I could see using them at track days so you are used to pushing it from the beginning, training like you fight is how we say it in the Army. Ive also heard modern race tires are more resilient to heat cycles than they used to be and that using warmers can actually lessen their life cycle because they "cure" the tire faster and use it up faster because they ARE kept warm. Versus letting it cool off some in between sessions.

What say ye? Hopefully this turns into a good, informative thread. Thanks everyone in advance!

[rybo]

This is one of those topics where you'll get a lot of opinions. There are lots of schools of thoughts on this, so I'll give you my opinion and what I've experienced.

1) A lot depends on the tires you choose.

Most people know about street tires (Q2, Pilot Power, 2CT, Diablo, etc) And race tires (D209, Power 1 etc) but something that a lot of people miss is that a lot of tire companies also make a trackday tire. Pirelli is offering a trackday slick this year and in the past the other manufacturers have offered them too. These are tires somewhere inbetween the full race tire and the street tire. Some are slicks some are DOT's but what they all have in common is that they are reasonably durable and don't require warmers to work well.

My Opinions:

Street Tires on the track - No warmers required. These tires are designed to work well from even reasonably cold temperatures. On warm days or at extremely high pace you can probably overheat them on the racetrack, but don't discount them. These are extremely capable tires. With a Pilot Power rear and a 2 CT front I've gone around race tracks at near race pace on an R6.

Race Tires at a lapping day: Warmers not required, but recommended. These tires are really designed to work in a very specific temperature range. You can certainly bring them up to temp using a warm up lap like you describe above, and they will work fine. What you really get for using warmers is extended tire life. These tires will last considerably longer if you warm them up a bit before going out and riding on them. Modern tires are much better than those of even a few years ago at performing when cold, but again, they really do work best when they are quite warm.

Race tires on race day: Use warmers. Can you get away without them? Yeah, but really I question going into T1 with 30 of my closest racer friends on cold tires. I'm either taking unnecessary risks or I'm off the back of the race before we get to T1. Racing requires a different level of commitment in everything from tire selection, bike set up and even willingness to be aggressive when entering a corner. Warm tires are your friend in this situation and very much worth the small investment that warmers represent.

Good luck in your decision!

[dragos13]

+1 for everthing Scott said.

When I'm at a track day, I can take a lap or two to get my tires warm. I'm usually on an older set of tires from the previous week so I'm less worried about heat cycles as the tires will soon be coming off anyways. If I was trying to keep them for multiple days, I think warmers would come in handy to prevent exterme heat cycles between sessions.

When the light goes out for a race, I want my tires to be ready to go 100% so warmers are required for me when racing.

[BushyAR15]

Definitely use them for racing on race tires. It allows you to go fast immediately. And in a race you definitely want every advantage you can get.

[OUTLAWD]

I agree with what Scott said...

but here is some food for thought, that I had not previously considered until talking about the same thing with someone else recently...

Yes, you can come off the warmers and lay down some blazing hot laps, but what about for those morning practice sessions when the track is cold. I had noticed that when I was pushing it right from the start the tires losing grip on the first and second lap of the session, then they came back to me. When the track and ambient air are cold, they are going to suck the heat out of your tires rather quickly, which is most likey why I experienced my lack of traction, which was then regained on the third lap or so...

[CaneZach]

I hate it when someone comes in here and knocks it out of the park on the first reply, thus leaving no room for discussion. Thanks a lot, Scott :lol:

Everything Scott said is the truth! During trackdays, you have the luxury of lapping a few times at a slower pace to warm up the tires, so warmers aren't really required.

[675Rider]

So for myself, just doing trackdays in Novice and Intermediate levels, I shouldnt need warmers with say Power 1s B compound? As long as I take a few laps to get some heat in them. Id much rather spend the money for the warmers and generator on lapping days or track days. Probably better bang for my buck right?

[dragos13]

So for myself, just doing trackdays in Novice and Intermediate levels, I shouldnt need warmers with say Power 1s B compound? As long as I take a few laps to get some heat in them. Id much rather spend the money for the warmers and generator on lapping days or track days. Probably better bang for my buck right?

I think you'd be fine without them. Just make sure tire pressure is set both in the morning and adjust again during lunch for the ambient temp increase. Give yourself a couple laps to warm them up before pushing hard on EVERY session you go out on.

[675Rider]

Agreed! I always take a few laps to warm up every session. Should I look for a 10% increase in psi from "cold" tires to operating temp?

[UglyDogRacing]

Agreed! I always take a few laps to warm up every session. Should I look for a 10% increase in psi from "cold" tires to operating temp?


Depends on what the cold psi you start with is.

[Scer]

I agree with what scott says too. Unless you are looking to be on podium for a race and don't mind wasting a lap it two to get them to temp then they are not really needed.

on to the other part of the question. I would suggest putting a post up asking for warmers that are not working. With only a half hour-ish break between sessions on a track day, you want to cover the tires up when you are off the track. The constant wave of warming and allowing the tire to fully cool before hitting the track again will substantially shorten the life of those tires. If you had a gap of an hour and half or so in between sessions then it wouldn't be such a big deal. Since its less than that you wanna cover the tires with warmers or something comparable to keep the heat in em.

warm on warmas

[675Rider]

@ Ugly Dog, Isnt a 10% increase what you shoot for? I cant remember which way it goes but I think it was if its less than 10% then your tire pressure is too high, more than 10% then its too low.

@Scer, that may be a good idea. I wonder how much heat they retain just covering them with cold warmers. I read on a few other forums that a few concerned with tire life tried out managing heat cycles by using warmers and not using them. They found it didnt make much of a difference if at all. In fact a dunlop rep on the California Superbikes forum said the heat cycles issue has been blown out of proportion and most cases is negligent regarding tire life. People confuse heat cycles with the actual rubber that is left. Not only are you heating and cooling the tire but you are scrubbing off tite material as well, reducing your level of grip.

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=2554

[TinkerinWstuff]

Rybo, you rock :rock:

and I still owe you a beverage some day for your time and suspension advice last year.

[UglyDogRacing]

@ Ugly Dog, Isnt a 10% increase what you shoot for? I cant remember which way it goes but I think it was if its less than 10% then your tire pressure is too high, more than 10% then its too low.


It's a good baseline but every tire brand and type can vary. Speak to the local race tire vendor for whichever brand you plan to use.



@Scer, that may be a good idea. I wonder how much heat they retain just covering them with cold warmers. I read on a few other forums that a few concerned with tire life tried out managing heat cycles by using warmers and not using them. They found it didnt make much of a difference if at all. In fact a dunlop rep on the California Superbikes forum said the heat cycles issue has been blown out of proportion and most cases is negligent regarding tire life. People confuse heat cycles with the actual rubber that is left. Not only are you heating and cooling the tire but you are scrubbing off tite material as well, reducing your level of grip.

With the current tires you will run out of rubber long before they cure to the point where they are too hard to use.

[TinkerinWstuff]

uh-oh, someone said heat cycles

[675Rider]

:pointlaugh:

[dragos13]

Last year I started recording my hot temps as well as my cold. I wanted to figure out how the tire worked when up to the temperature it would be performing at. I will review my notes later today but I'm pretty sure the increase was closer to 20-25% from cold to full hot.

[UglyDogRacing]

Last year I started recording my hot temps as well as my cold. I wanted to figure out how the tire worked when up to the temperature it would be performing at. I will review my notes later today but I'm pretty sure the increase was closer to 20-25% from cold to full hot.

Yes but you got mad skillz and you were a class champion. I don't think a track day rider is going to get their tires hot enough for that kind of pressure increase. :)

[TinkerinWstuff]

In fact a dunlop rep on the California Superbikes forum said the heat cycles issue has been blown out of proportion

Those damn Dunlop guys always hatin on heat cycles

[ghostrider_9]

I'm going to be the antagonist in this thread. I completely disagree with what Scott said. I think you should use tire warmers at all times . . . at the track, if you're riding the streets . . . it's the new version of ATGATT . . .

Ok, I'm done being the antagonist . . .

This thread really is good info. Thanks for sharing.

[Zach929rr]

ATWATT

[ghostrider_9]

ATWATT

That's it! I wonder if we could start a new trend. . .

[OUTLAWD]

my bike is on the warmers now, in the garage...

I also started to pay alot more attention to both temps and pressures this year...I never really went by cold temp, but would check it in the AM. From cold I would see a ~10% increase on the warmers for my "hot" pressure, then a ~20% increase when I would come back in from a session..and I'm one of the slowest guys out there.

This was on the rear...I never had problems with the front, so never paid it too much mind.

as far as heat cycles are concerned, a set of medium compound AMA spec tires lasted me over 1/2 a season, and I think having run them through multiple heat cycles earlier in the season help toughen the tire up a bit, and it actually wore very well later in the season when hot days at HPR were tearing up everones tires...but as everyone is saying...you are going to run out of rubber before a modern tire is going to cycle itself to death.

[Scer]

@ Ugly Dog, Isnt a 10% increase what you shoot for? I cant remember which way it goes but I think it was if its less than 10% then your tire pressure is too high, more than 10% then its too low.

@Scer, that may be a good idea. I wonder how much heat they retain just covering them with cold warmers. I read on a few other forums that a few concerned with tire life tried out managing heat cycles by using warmers and not using them. They found it didnt make much of a difference if at all. In fact a dunlop rep on the California Superbikes forum said the heat cycles issue has been blown out of proportion and most cases is negligent regarding tire life. People confuse heat cycles with the actual rubber that is left. Not only are you heating and cooling the tire but you are scrubbing off tite material as well, reducing your level of grip.

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=2554

That would be bru from the East Coast.. I worked numerous months out of his shop in Nashville.

Don't get me wrong, I never said anything about heat cycles. (Haha, tinkerin) I simply said the life of your tire. Think of it as a car.. if you could help it, wouldn't you rather limit the amount of cold starts it has? Doesn't mean the engine has only so many cold starts it can handle. It just means that it might last a little longer the better you take care of it. :)

It's your cash man.. just trying to help you save some. :)

play on playas

[TinkerinWstuff]

I wanted to say

cycle on haters

Glad you saw my attempt at humor. For those who were not able to attend, two weeks ago Scer did a free tire seminar at Sol Motorsports. Much was covered there regarding this very topic. I learned a lot about warmers and "heat cycles".

I asked Scer what his biggest tire pet peeve or public misconception about tires was. He said heat cycles because there is no technical or industry accepted definition of what a heat cycle is. Being a technical guy myself who likes specs and standards, I can appreciate this. How far does a tire have to cool before it's considered a "cycle"? How warm? How much time....

So while heating up and cooling down definitely affects the tire as it pushes oil out of the compounds, heat cycles can mean different things to different people.

Hope I explained it right Scer, didn't open any worms, and you aren't on your back under the bus...

[OUTLAWD]

didn't open any worms, and you aren't on your back under the bus...

waiting for Frank's reply...;)

[TinkerinWstuff]

waiting for Frank's reply...;)

Am ready with my dictionary and thesaurus

[675Rider]

Ha ha ha. Id have to say I agree, I see the merits in using them, especially if you race. Im sure in time I will aquire some but it will save me quite a bit of money for now, especially since Im investing in some good suspension.

[dragos13]

Ha ha ha. Id have to say I agree, I see the merits in using them, especially if you race. Im sure in time I will aquire some but it will save me quite a bit of money for now, especially since Im investing in some good suspension.

That right there is one of the best things you can do to a bike. Before HP or anything else, get good suspension :)

[675Rider]

Im hoping so. Alot of people say it makes a world of difference. I have only done the typical mods, slip on exhaust, remapped EFI, and air filter. Few other little cosmetic things. I cant wait though!

[Graphite675]

I'm a fan of using tire warmers myself. Probably not be neccesary in the novice or slow intermediate class but as you start moving up it may be something to consider?

I'm no expert when it comes to the technical details of using or not using warmers but I will say that it does one thing for me. It gives me a little more confidence in the tires and it's one less thing to worry about when I roll out on the track. For that reason alone I think it was worth the investment.
I have a set of single temp GP warmers that I picked up for like $250 and have been using them for years with no problem so you don't have to spend a fortune on them.

Like other said though, I think I would work the suspension first then look at other areas to spend the money.

.