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edj
Sun Apr 3rd, 2011, 09:50 AM
As a motogp hater, this email from a friend in Italy was a breath of fresh air...

Here is a summary of the content of the meeting as broadcasted today
--------------- GP bikes aren't dead --------------------------------

The championship has already been approved by UEM (European Motorcycle Union) and will start in 2012. The intent of the workshop was to introduce the championship, its reasons, its spirit and to discuss the rules.

The general philosophy of the whole event was well sumarized by the cell phone interview with Jan Thiel. He said that: once, the world championship was the research, the cutting edge technology, and road going vehicles would eventually benefit from the discovers made for the competition engines. Nowadays, the reverse happens, the motoGP is sort of a make championship made of vehicles that are derived from the production vehicles, choked by a myriad of rules that prevent anything to be done. No technology innovation, ridiculous specific power, etc. etc. [we all know what he's talking about so no need to detail this].

So the spirit of this new championship is to take over things where they
were killed 20 years ago, and restart/continue innovation.
Hence, the basic rule is: no rules.

More in detail, the rules:

- displacement: 50/125/250 cc
(as opposed to 4strokes oversize "bigger is better" low power
philosophy, let's restart with small displacement but high power)
(a 500 cc class may be added in following years)

- free number of cylinders

- free type of engine (it's not a championship reserved to two-strokes,
you are free to participate with a Diesel, a 4T, a Wankel, whatever,
if you are able to get enough power out of it)

- free choice of fuel with a bonus for those who use politically correct
bio-fuels (bonus in the form of "points" affecting the ranking)

- free choice of tire size

- free number of speeds in the gearbox, and free transmissions
(a gear shifter box isn't actually required, you can use CVT
or whatever else solution you can invent)

- supercharging allowed, free pressure

- free electronics with only two limitations:
-- _NO_ drive-by-wire
-- _NO_ GPS assisted traction control etc.

- free choice of construction materials, except those harming health
like Asbetos, Berillium, etc.

- noise level must be <= 97 db
(measured at 10 m distance, vehicle passing by full speed)

- free lube and lube system

- cooling: only water allowed

- free aerodynamics, within general FIM guidelines

- dimensions, same as per FIM rules

- the rules are made so that you are also free to take part into
competitions with old race bikes (hopefully restored and tuned)

Then, rules for limiting costs:

- each team may have a maximum of 2 bikes for each driver

- each team may be made of maximum 5 persons

And finally:

- no age limitations for drivers, no forcing of a class change.
If you love a class, you can race in that class all your life long.

This last statement has to do with another aspect of the championship
philosophy, that was equally remarked by both Jan Thiel and the other
organizers, that is to make bike racing a sport again, to revalue the human
aspects and to reduce the "show-business" side at a minimum.
To give young drivers time and chance to grow a drivers career, and not to trash them if they don't become a superstar in the first season.
To have the different teams friends with each other, and normal people able to access the paddocks and have a talk with drivers and mechanics.
To NOT have the best part of the paddocks reserved to the bigger
displacement and television, and the minor classes confined to the back, but to have everything mixed together like it was in the old good times when motorbike competitions were a sport in the real sense of the word.

vort3xr6
Sun Apr 3rd, 2011, 10:57 AM
Meh. Sounds way too open ended to actually work. Because winning a championship is a coveted accomplishment, teams will use these rules and exploit whatever they can to win.

Free choice of tire size? Free choice of construction materials? Basically, the team with the most money wins.

CYCLE_MONKEY
Sun Apr 3rd, 2011, 05:06 PM
It'll be a novelty at best. And, the MotoGP bikes are, by the rules, prototypes, no production parts are allowed. He can hate MotoGP all he wants, he's vastly in the minority, so whatever floats his boat. Usually, it's kick-ass racing, dunno what he expects.....

Have him try following F-USA here in the states if they're still running that. The rules there used to be extremely open, anything from NOS equipped Grand Prix 250's, to Gixxer 7-11's.

Graphite675
Sun Apr 3rd, 2011, 05:33 PM
He can hate MotoGP all he wants, he's vastly in the minority


Agreed. I still enjoy MotoGP. If anything needs to change it's the AMA/DMG fiasco that we have here in the states.

.

brennahm
Sun Apr 3rd, 2011, 05:43 PM
I think there's a discussion to be started somewhere in there about the role of racing. Basically, whether it's main purpose is to entertain the fans/enthusiasts or to further technological advancement; is close racing important; things like that. I think we have multiple series (MotoGP, WSB, BSB, AMA) that serve different purposes (not commenting on how WELL each does it's job, only that they hold different ideals to be paramount).

Also, to be fair Frank, MotoGP encompasses the Moto 2 series which run spec motors directly derived from CBR600RR motors.

CYCLE_MONKEY
Sun Apr 3rd, 2011, 06:14 PM
I think there's a discussion to be started somewhere in there about the role of racing. Basically, whether it's main purpose is to entertain the fans/enthusiasts or to further technological advancement; is close racing important; things like that. I think we have multiple series (MotoGP, WSB, BSB, AMA) that serve different purposes (not commenting on how WELL each does it's job, only that they hold different ideals to be paramount).

Also, to be fair Frank, MotoGP encompasses the Moto 2 series which run spec motors directly derived from CBR600RR motors.
...and also the 125cc 2-strokes. ;)

My problem with the Moto2 series is that I do NOT believe it should be a spec motor series. ALL the manufacturers should be able to field 600cc motors, not just Honda, and maybe even do a sliding weight/restrictor plate ruleset that allows the Triumph 675 run along with the Ducati 848. Now THAT would be a good series! Actually, the racing in Moto2 is TOO close, leading to "NASCRAP-style" pileups, and I believe led to the death of that one Japanese rider last year because he got hit twice because everyone was so bunched together.

One thing we can ALL agree with is.......the AMA/DMG sux ass! :)

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 10:05 AM
A world champion race bike should use a high density power plant and not oversized low density power. Powerful AND light = awesome racing. That seems to be the gist of this new championship. Ironically this will HELP privateers... it is a lot cheaper to run 2strokes as they are naturally light and fast and don't need insane tech to be so. 4 strokes only took over racing because of rules specifically rigged to make them competitive.

When I watch motogp... am I seeing great riders battling it out? Or am I seeing amazing software in action? GPS traction control? Yuck. Traction control should be located in the drivers brain (or balls). Am I seeing the best that motorcycle technology has to offer? Or am I seeing a overweight oversized marketing tool whose power-to-weight-ratio is barely better than a 25 year old gp bike.

And now the 250s are gone. Yawn. They were way more fun to watch than the big 4strokes. If I wanted to watch 600 streetish bikes I could already do that. I still don't. 125s are gone in 2012.

So you guys can hate me ... but I didn't create this championship... lots of people think like I do. And I am excited that they are DOING something. Honda killed the *sport*. Enthusiasts are reviving it.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 10:44 AM
... I must admit though that the bit about 'politically correct' fuels altering scoring seems lame.

vort3xr6
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 11:11 AM
A world champion race bike should use a high density power plant and not oversized low density power. Powerful AND light = awesome racing. That seems to be the gist of this new championship. Ironically this will HELP privateers... it is a lot cheaper to run 2strokes as they are naturally light and fast and don't need insane tech to be so. 4 strokes only took over racing because of rules specifically rigged to make them competitive.

When I watch motogp... am I seeing great riders battling it out? Or am I seeing amazing software in action? GPS traction control? Yuck. Traction control should be located in the drivers brain (or balls). Am I seeing the best that motorcycle technology has to offer? Or am I seeing a overweight oversized marketing tool whose power-to-weight-ratio is barely better than a 25 year old gp bike.

And now the 250s are gone. Yawn. They were way more fun to watch than the big 4strokes. If I wanted to watch 600 streetish bikes I could already do that. I still don't. 125s are gone in 2012.

So you guys can hate me ... but I didn't create this championship... lots of people think like I do. And I am excited that they are DOING something. Honda killed the *sport*. Enthusiasts are reviving it.


Compared to Moto2, the 250cc's were a BORE. Moto2 is a great series, with big developments in chassis, swingarm setup. Plus it allows privateers to afford it, thus the reason why Moto2 has such a big grid. Good riddance 250cc.

brennahm
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 12:22 PM
I thought the purpose was to advance technology? And your ridiculing traction control...

/antagonism

longrider
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 12:43 PM
To me the whole rider aid technology issue is completely separate from the engine and modification rules. You can put ride by wire just as easily on a 2 stroke. The engine change was politically driven, and now the rules are being done to control costs so there can be more than 12 bikes on the grid.

Regarding the cost issue, it has been said that the dramatic decline in amateur motocross is more due to the cost of racing a 4 stroke than anything to do with the economy or kids today not being into active sports

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 01:31 PM
The only reason that 250s were expensive to campaign is that Aprilia no longer had competition and charged based on their monopoly. Their fault? Or the fault of other manufacturers dropping 250? A heaver bike with more cylinders and valves and parts and complexities costs more to build and more to maintain ... how can that be cheaper? Something doesn't add up. I doubt that replacing 2stroke 125s with 4stroke 250s will make things any cheaper either. But this isn't about the pinnacle of racing technologies or about making the sport more affordable... this is about selling street bikes. A used late model TZ250 for under $20,000 would spank one of these inexpensive eu400,000 600s.

The Moto2 racing may be exciting... but that excitement is derived from having everybody having the same specs not from the actual specs themselves. That keeps it close but can also lead to monotony. Honda could have given everybody street NSR250 motors from 15 years ago for a LOT less money and the bikes would be more exciting than these 600s. I would prefer to see people on DIFFERENT bikes that have different advantages and disadvantages. That is a matter of taste... that is why there are different classes. So why are they trying to make all the classes sorta the same?

I am really surprised everybody isn't EXCITED about this new championship. What if this went back to the wild 60s where you'd see 6 cylinder 150s (or tinier!) using engineering that would put modern Honda to shame. That would be fun.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 01:44 PM
I thought the purpose was to advance technology? And your ridiculing traction control...

/antagonism

The bikes would surely go faster if we got rid of the riders altogether. I KNOW Honda has the technology for that. There is probably technology that would allow your cat to ride at gp speeds with his eyes closed. There is advancing motorcycle technology. And there is advancing software tech. I draw the line at when the software starts doing the riders job. You lack throttle control? We can fix that... just hold it WOT like you would on your gameboy and the software will do the rest. Who needs talent anymore.... singers don't. why should racers?

/hyberbolism

CaptGoodvibes
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 01:56 PM
I can't find anything on the UEM website or FB page about this. Linky?

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 02:13 PM
It was posted to the gammalist, summarized by Franco from Italy (who is manufacturing new aftermarket RG500 motor parts). I would be very sad if it was April fool ... but Franco has no sense of humor so it seems unlikely.

A google shows this same information posted on advriders, motorcycleaddicts, 2stroker, fzronline forums... but it all seems to be the same exact post from Franco and his post to gammalist predates all those.

Ah... here is the official pdf for the workshop that the post summarizes...
http://www.rscycles.com/news/2_Stroke_world_championship.pdf
I presume official announcements will be made.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 02:29 PM
btw, all the people posting in those other forums are actually excited. It seems I am NOT in the minority after all. Makes me wonder what is wrong with you colorado "sport" bikers.

asp_125
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 02:37 PM
Oh I dunno, it'll be fun to bring back the 500cc two stroke widomakers with evil handling leading to head shakes and dramatic high sides. :lol:

Electronic traction aids certainly have made GP bikes tamer.

CaptGoodvibes
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 02:44 PM
btw, all the people posting in those other forums are actually excited. It seems I am NOT in the minority after all. Makes me wonder what is wrong with you colorado "sport" bikers.

Haha! Well, in a thread with 18 posts, 7 of them yours, I don't think you have a large enough sampling of "Colorado" but whatever. As a technical type, I want more info s'all...

brennahm
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 02:49 PM
I just always viewed racing as advertising that we enthusiasts benefitted from. If it's not "advertising" then it's got very little value to those who promote and you end up with a grassroots program, something I'm very fond of.

No company (OEM) wants to advertise a product they can't sell. Certainly you're not proposing the manufacture of 2 strokes for the street (as cool as that would be)?

I can't see an open, world series of unmarketable bikes.

Best of luck to them nonetheless.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 02:53 PM
Oh I dunno, it'll be fun to bring back the 500cc two stroke widomakers with evil handling leading to head shakes and dramatic high sides. :lol:

Electronic traction aids certainly have made GP bikes tamer.

The 500s were pretty tamed down (ie broader power band) by the end.

As a 500 2 stroke rider... I've never had head shake and have only high-sided a 250 though come close on the 500 a few times... you can usually escape anything it handles 'mayhem' so well at 350 pounds fully wet. Don't blame the 'class' for the 80s handling and tires of the era.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 03:21 PM
No company (OEM) wants to advertise a product they can't sell. Certainly you're not proposing the manufacture of 2 strokes for the street (as cool as that would be)?

I can't see an open, world series of unmarketable bikes.



Unmarketable? Anything 2stroke sells for big money. Search TZR RGV NSR RG NS RS... all hugely popular all over the world and appreciating in value like wild fire. People want two strokes because they are very good at moving motorcycles quickly with minimal weight.... = FUN. Nothing beats that zip. And easy to maintain too:) Clean tech also exists (search aprilia oil encapsulation) if that is your concern. But the MANUFACTURERS would rather sell you something that is more complicated, bigger and costs more. v-tec and all that sorta bs. If I set you on my RG500 for 10 minutes on peak-to-peak highway you would come back with a smile wider than your helmet ... its 25 pounds lighter than a NEW Ninja 250 and more powerful than a NEW 600 (if properly tuned more than new 750). An irresistable formula. They sell themselves... if only someone would LET them.

There is always demand for the lightest most powerful motorcycles possible. Or else you wouldn't have people STILL make V4 500's to sell for eu50,000+ that will destroy a Motogp bike (in a motogp chassis).

vort3xr6
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 03:30 PM
I agree the MotoGP has turned into quite the parade race in the last few years, but I don't think the race series above solves ANY of those issues. I am not excited about it because it doesn't sound exciting!

Let's go through it again.

- displacement: 50/125/250 cc
The only way you are going to make this exciting is on a shorter track and/or 2 strokes. If you honestly think the racing community is going to get hard over a 50cc 4 stroke race at Mugello, you are crazy. I would rather watch segway's race.

- free number of cylinders
- free type of engine (it's not a championship reserved to two-strokes,
you are free to participate with a Diesel, a 4T, a Wankel, whatever,
if you are able to get enough power out of it)

The only way you will be able to get ANY power out of that size motor is by 2 stroke. There would be no other configuration that could rival the power/weight. So free type of engine config is out the door.

- free choice of fuel with a bonus for those who use politically correct
bio-fuels (bonus in the form of "points" affecting the ranking)
:handjerkmotion. Once again, in order to win, everybody will run the best fuel possible.

- free choice of tire size
- free number of speeds in the gearbox, and free transmissions
(a gear shifter box isn't actually required, you can use CVT
or whatever else solution you can invent)
AGAIN, the obvious choice will be the one that we already use. The one that works. A CVT wouldn't stand a chance against a 6 speed quick shifter on 250 cc 2 stroke.

- supercharging allowed, free pressure
Wow. Now its just getting outlandish.

- free electronics with only two limitations:
-- _NO_ drive-by-wire
-- _NO_ GPS assisted traction control etc.
Let us reverse innovation in favor for.....? Spectacular crashes at the expense of rider safety?

- free choice of construction materials, except those harming health
like Asbetos, Berillium, etc.
This is where the money will separate the team. The person who can buy the most unobtanium wins. Why do you think SBK's have a minimum weight limit?

- noise level must be <= 97 db
(measured at 10 m distance, vehicle passing by full speed)
Forget about a 2 stroke then! lol. Keep in mind a Hair Dryer at 5 feet is 90 dB. So now you are promoting a 50/125/250 4 stroke series with bikes barely louder than a hair dryer at WOT. Sounds like a hoot.

- free lube and lube system
- cooling: only water allowed
- free aerodynamics, within general FIM guidelines
- dimensions, same as per FIM rules

Are these just fillers? This series is a joke. The Rocky Mountain Mini Moto club has more innovation and better racing than the above series.

Us "Colorado" sport bikers know that crap like this doesn't work. Look at club racing, it is just as exciting as some pro race series but still gets little sponsorship support. It's your fault if you think success will come from some hack series that tries to do what every other series stopped doing because it didn't work.

vort3xr6
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 04:21 PM
A world champion race bike should use a high density power plant and not oversized low density power. Powerful AND light = awesome racing. That seems to be the gist of this new championship. Ironically this will HELP privateers... it is a lot cheaper to run 2strokes as they are naturally light and fast and don't need insane tech to be so. 4 strokes only took over racing because of rules specifically rigged to make them competitive.

When I watch motogp... am I seeing great riders battling it out? Or am I seeing amazing software in action? GPS traction control? Yuck. Traction control should be located in the drivers brain (or balls). Am I seeing the best that motorcycle technology has to offer? Or am I seeing a overweight oversized marketing tool whose power-to-weight-ratio is barely better than a 25 year old gp bike.

And now the 250s are gone. Yawn. They were way more fun to watch than the big 4strokes. If I wanted to watch 600 streetish bikes I could already do that. I still don't. 125s are gone in 2012.

So you guys can hate me ... but I didn't create this championship... lots of people think like I do. And I am excited that they are DOING something. Honda killed the *sport*. Enthusiasts are reviving it.

wow. I couldn't let you get away with this one.

4 strokes took over racing in order to accurately reflect production / demand trends in the market. Why race bikes that nobody wanted to buy? 2 stroke technology has reached the peak of innovation, whereas 4 stroke technology is just beginning to advance. (see BMW S1000RR). Ever heard of the cross plane crank? Or ABS? Or Traction Control on the street? Those came from MotoGP testing and innovations.

The riders in MotoGP are still the best of the best. I don't care how much traction control, or active suspension adjustments they have, you cannot deny that Rossi, Lorenzo, Spies, Stoner, etc are all the best riders in the world.

Oversized marketing tool?!? The weight of the 2010 Yamaha YZR-M1 was 331lbs, with BRAKE horsepower right at 240. Thus, giving it a power to weight ratio of .72 hp/lb

Your precious NSR 500 had a hp number roughly around 150, weighing in at 262 lbs DRY. You are looking at MAYBE a .56 hp/lb.

Either way you look at it, you are wrong.

brennahm
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 04:24 PM
Unmarketable? Blah, blah, blah...used bikes.
Sorry, but OEM's and the motorcycle industry as a whole is always focused on the next thing. Unmarketable? Yes, see below.


And easy to maintain too:) Clean tech also exists (search aprilia oil encapsulation) if that is your concern.
I did not say anything about ease of maintenance or the availability of clean two stroke technology, if I'm not mistaken the boating industry has progressed in the last 10 years by leaps and bounds. But even there, not enough to supplant 4 strokes entirely. My concern is getting a 2 stroke bike certified for sale for the street since that's where the money is. I'm not saying they shouldn't be, just that they won't be.


v-tec and all that sorta bs
I thought you were for technical innovation? What's wrong with VTec other than it's on a 4 stroke?


If I set you on my RG500 for 10 minutes on peak-to-peak highway you would come back with a smile wider than your helmet
I have no doubt. I enjoyed my RD350 thoroughly.


But the MANUFACTURERS would rather sell you something that is more complicated, bigger and costs more...They sell themselves... if only someone would LET them.
The manufacturers would rather sell me something I'm allowed to buy. Don't blame them entirely for what's available.


There is always demand for the lightest most powerful motorcycles possible.
Most powerful, sure. But you need to specify how much of the equation belongs to "lightest" and how much to "most powerful".

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 04:26 PM
They'll be two strokes.. and these hacks are likely to have faster lap times than the moto world champions using less than half the displacement and probably less money. 97 dB is over 4x louder than 90 dB? My RG500 is quieter (with after market cans) than most 4 strokes with cans that I encounter.. not as high pitched either so sound doesn't carry as far. TZR250 is so quiet it sounds almost electric. I don't think sound is a huge issue... there are considerably loud 4 strokes too. Its nothing unique to 2strokes or unsolvable. So it will be 2stroke and therefore the bikes will be light and powerful and maybe cooler than something you'd commute on.

vort3xr6
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 04:39 PM
http://www.talknerdytomelover.com/storage/facepalm_implied.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=13 01217684480


You go ahead and let me know when your 125cc 2 stroke pulls a faster lap time than a MotoGP bike. LOLZ

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 04:47 PM
Your precious NSR 500 had a hp number roughly around 150, weighing in at 262 lbs DRY. You are looking at MAYBE a .56 hp/lb.
A quick search seems to put that number at more like 187 bhp in 1994. So that would put that at about 0.72 also. I believe with weights added. 17 years ago. Such progress. Wet isn't much heavier than dry on 2t. No liters of motor oil to weigh you down.

Why should a racing vehicle reflect the street? Do formula one cars have to follow street fashions/requirements. Why should formula one bikes have to be glorified street bikes? Isn't that what superbike already is?

This is probably the only forum in the world where people are actually against this Championship. Ugh. Enjoy watching your world class commuters and I will await the hacks and hope they can pull it off. Should be interesting to compare lap times.

vort3xr6
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 05:03 PM
lol @ world class commuters. Carbon brakes, active suspension, GPS traction control, the list goes on.

You go ahead and cheer on your 1960's technology with the rest of the old farts while the rest of the world encourages innovation.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 05:09 PM
You go ahead and let me know when your 125cc 2 stroke pulls a faster lap time than a MotoGP bike. LOLZ

I only have decades old 250s and 500s not much for racing but unbeatable on any twisty road. I'll bet the old 125cc 2strokes will be faster than the new 250cc 4strokes ... and less expensive. You let me know when these 600cc moto2 bikes can actually start consistently beating the 250 lap times and why it takes 2.4x the displacement to be a little slower? (shouldn't a 500 4t EQUAL a 250 2t? ... or are there extra inefficiencies in the 4t motor?... in the old days 400cc 4t would race 250cc 2t and that was fair).

The laws of physics will always make the 2t superior for performance. Shouldn't the pinnacle of a 'world champion' use the pinnacle of performance? Crazy I have to argue this to motorcycle fans? Bizzaro world. You guys big DOT EPA fans or something?

vort3xr6
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 05:09 PM
http://www.scottjones.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/T2P8541.jpg

http://2wheeltuesday.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/stoner.jpg

http://r6blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Screen-shot-2011-02-22-at-1.22.15-AM-1.png

Commuter machines. Sick.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 05:21 PM
lol @ world class commuters. Carbon brakes, active suspension, GPS traction control, the list goes on.

You go ahead and cheer on your 1960's technology with the rest of the old farts while the rest of the world encourages innovation.

2strokes could have all that shit (and I think had much of it). GPS traction control to me is totally bullshit ... maybe good for street riders, but having your bike know where it is and behave differently is a step toward getting rid of the rider altogether.

btw, I think you will find the 4strokes ARE THE OLD tech that they keep adding BS tech to try to make them perform like the NEWER tech of 2strokes. Slipper clutch? Don't need it ... it just simulates 2 stroke free spinning motor. All my bikes are from the 80s not the 60s. Come ride an 1986 4cylinder 500cc gp replica... maybe THAT would change your idea of what sporty is and could be.... it sure surprises the liter bikes on the road. Then imagine if 25 years of evolution had occured and what you might have been riding today. If your imagination is poor I can send you video of my friend Christos riding his RS500 in Athens (RG500 motor, RS250 chassis... insane). I seriously think you (apparantly young?) guys don't even know what you are missing.

I am excited about this new championship. If you aren't then foo on you.

CaptGoodvibes
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 05:23 PM
The laws of physics will always make the 2t superior for performance. Shouldn't the pinnacle of a 'world champion' use the pinnacle of performance? Crazy I have to argue this to motorcycle fans? Bizzaro world. You guys big DOT EPA fans or something?

There are more posts in this one thread than all the other forums you mentioned combined. I smell a 4/1 troll.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 05:29 PM
lol @ world class commuters. Carbon brakes, active suspension, GPS traction control, the list goes on.

You go ahead and cheer on your 1960's technology with the rest of the old farts while the rest of the world encourages innovation.

2strokes could have all that shit (and I think had much of it). GPS traction control to me is totally bullshit ... maybe good for street riders, but having your bike know where it is and behave differently is a step toward getting rid of the rider altogether.

btw, I think you will find the 4strokes ARE THE OLD tech that they keep adding BS tech to try to make them perform like the NEWER tech of 2strokes. Slipper clutch? Don't need it ... it just simulates 2 stroke free spinning motor. All my bikes are from the 80s not the 60s. Come ride an 1986 4cylinder 500cc gp replica... maybe THAT would change your idea of what sporty is and could be.... it sure surprises the liter bikes on the road. Then imagine if 25 years of evolution had occured and what you might have been riding today. If your imagination is poor I can send you video of my friend Christos riding his RS500 in Athens (RG500 motor, RS250 chassis... insane). I seriously think you (apparantly young?) guys don't even know what you are missing.

I am excited about this new championship. If you aren't then foo on you.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 05:31 PM
Old farts on 60s technology...

brennahm
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 05:57 PM
This is like watching the guys on SupermotoJunkie get pissed when some grassroots race isn't shown on speed...

Guess what? Just because you like doesn't mean everybody does...

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 06:07 PM
This is like watching the guys on SupermotoJunkie get pissed when some grassroots race isn't shown on speed...

Guess what? Just because you like doesn't mean everybody does...

Well I like to watch RACE bikes RACE. I've always considered 4t to be less of a RACE bike and more of a STREET bike. But I guess you guys prefer street bikes and I am in the minority here. Still no reason for all the haters... the announcement if true should be exciting for ALL motorcycle racing fans.

Maybe I said to many unkind words about Honda?

CaptGoodvibes
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 06:20 PM
Well I like to watch RACE bikes RACE. I've always considered 4t to be less of a RACE bike and more of a STREET bike. But I guess you guys prefer street bikes and I am in the minority here. Still no reason for all the haters... the announcement if true should be exciting for ALL motorcycle racing fans.

Maybe I said to many unkind words about Honda?

If you want a serious discussion, you should omit the trolling remarks like I bolded in the quote. Pro-tip... type, read, edit, post.

asp_125
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 06:28 PM
If it weren't for the EPA, 2-smokes would still be around. At Monterey around MotoGP time all the rare beasties come out to be drooled on.

brennahm
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 06:30 PM
^+1 to CaptGoodVibes

And considering almost nobody races 2 strokes on any major level anymore...

And maybe you're just incensed at the idea that nobody wants to blindly agree that 2 strokes are better motorcycles?

LambeauXLIV
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 06:50 PM
Well I like to watch RACE bikes RACE.

I like to watch RACERS race. They could be on scooters for all I care.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 06:52 PM
^+1 to CaptGoodVibes

And considering almost nobody races 2 strokes on any major level anymore...

And maybe you're just incensed at the idea that nobody wants to blindly agree that 2 strokes are better motorcycles?

I am quite incensed that people are unexcited and just like to shoot things down. I was excited and thought I would share what seemed fresh news from someone who went to the meeting. But now I don't see this as a board of sport bike fans... but haters who simply want to shoot shit down.

I somewhat incensed that somehow gp racing has been replaced by Hondacup and happy now that there seems to be something cool brewing that might upset Honda's carefully crafted formula.

I'm very slightly incensed that people seem to have been fooled into thinking there has been much real progress in motorcycle chassis since the 90s (if there has its to manage big motors). Tires seem the only big difference.

But I'll get over it.... leaving for Barcelona in the morning where bikes are a religion in a way that none of us can fathom and people might be excited by things like http://www.suterracing.ch/news/details/16 and want to see them have a venue.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 07:02 PM
http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/suter-srt-500-v4the-gp-two-stroke-motorcycle-for-anyone-to-buy-ar81617.html is the real suter not just computer mockup. “makes a MotoGP bike feel like a tractor."

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 07:25 PM
Wow, looks like another 500cc championship is geared up for 2012... I think this is different series... well I am happy if if you guys still want to moan.

(Email from Suter date Mar 22 2011)

Dear customer, Dear motorcycle 2 stroke fan!

we are able to anounce that we are ready for production of our new SRT V4 Factory GP500 machine!

The production is limited and in 2012 we will organize a new 500 Championship with aprox. 6 rounds in europe.

if you are interested please do not hesitate to contact us.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Best regards

LEUTHE CONSULTING
in coorporation with

SUTER RACING TECHNOLOGY AG
Mettlenstrasse 3
CH-8488 Turbenthal

LEUTHE CONSULTING
SALES & MARKETING
Andy Leuthe
Schützenstrasse 57
CH-8212 Neuhausen am Rheinfall
Tel.&Fax: +41-(0)52-5331 09! 0
Mobil:+41-(0)79-848 39 31

vort3xr6
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 07:27 PM
Racing is racing. When was the last time you gridded up and had your blood pump? Or have you ever? I race and I could care less what bike, engine, style, etc. I am on. I love racing and everything about it. Hence the reason why I race a 2 stroke 65, a 4 stroke 600, and a 4 stroke 400 thumper.

You have some messed up ideology that 4 stroke racing is the devil. Watch a race once in a while. In fact, come out to an MRA race and watch ME race. Hell, I will pay your gate entry. Come out and hop on my 600. I don't care, just know that not everybody shares your 1 sided racing philosophy.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 07:43 PM
<QUOTE>Hence the reason why I race a 2 stroke 65, a 4 stroke 600, and a 4 stroke 400 thumper</QUOTE> so why are you against a system that is trying to maintain variety? I don't think my philosophy is one sided... I think Honda's and the current system is one sided and am excited people are breaking out of that MOLD. You should be too based on your stable of racers. But I guess you preferred to shoot it all down.

I wish I could afford the time and money to race. I'd be on a two stroke because I don't know how to do work on valves.

vort3xr6
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 07:47 PM
I pointed out above what I believe is flawed about the race series above. Generally, people fall into 2 different mindsets. As brennahm pointed out, is racing for technological development? Or is racing for entertainment?

I vote for entertainment, which is why I love Moto2 and disliked 250cc. I would prefer racing to be racing. Let the riders have a great race and display great feats of skill on a motorcycle. The more spec the racing is, the more skill the rider needs to have.

See above for the obvious faults in the race series you presented.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 08:10 PM
So what could be more spec than 20-30 guys on the same SRT500 that this other 500cc series is promising. All the same bike... but a REAL SERIOUSLY LIGHT + POWERFUL bike (compared even to motogp) and relatively affordable (compared to moto2) bike. And in a moto2 frame even... but with some actual oomph? And for a third the price of Honda's 'affordable' motors. Seems like that should attract some talent. This isn't the formula you were nice enough to critique.... perhaps you want to have a go at the Suter guys too? I guess if a top motogp frame maker finds the world champion bikes boring... that is one sided too? All the power to them.

And wouldn't you still like the 50/125/250/{500?} series to succeed and be cool instead of just trying to let us all know how foolish the organizers must be? Would you maybe just maybe actually watch it to see? So why try to be a spoiler?

brennahm
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 08:17 PM
Some of us said we wish the new series the best of luck...but this is a forum (that means a place for discussion).

I'm a little confused why you demand that MotoGP is horrible because it's a spec series and that the new thing is great because it will be a hotbed for technological development...yet you now promote a Suter spec series.

Can we cut the crap and have you just admit you hate 4 strokes (you admitted because you simply don't know them) and that's why you like this series?

Ring-ding.

Have fun Brad...Focker out.

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 08:44 PM
I am not promoting anything. I was just saying that if someone thinks the success of moto2 is the 'spec' aspect of it that wouldn't it be cool if the specs called for more powerful motors than the everyday guy might aspire to? And cheaper than Hondas 600s? Suter seems to think so.

I personally prefer to see different bikes in race and would hope the Suter series would draw ex-gp500 bikes and guys who build 500 gp bikes in their garage and not just be one bike... but I don't know anything about it. And nothing against 4strokes, I have a special spot in my heart for the 1987 FZR750R that I learned to ride on... just think there should be room enough in this world for MORE than just 4strokes. It would be cool if a formula allowed both 2strokes and 4strokes with fair displacement ratios.

It really seems crazy that there is any debate here at all. These new series offer exciting possibilities. Whether they deliver remains to be seen.

(I do kinda hate Honda but have an NS250R that I like)

CaptGoodvibes
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 08:50 PM
Now that is the kind of calm, mature post that will get a nice normal conversation going. Thank you! Any luck on finding the link on the original series you posted? I still can't find one

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 09:08 PM
I posted the PDF link from sometime in march that outlined the meeting in Rome that happened on April 2. I think you'll find it immediately after your query. My excitement about that has been somewhat eclipsed by this Suter thing I knew nothing about until searching around for you.

here it is again...
"Ah... here is the official pdf for the workshop that the post summarizes...
http://www.rscycles.com/news/2_Strok...ampionship.pdf (http://www.rscycles.com/news/2_Stroke_world_championship.pdf)
I presume official announcements will be made. "

edj
Mon Apr 4th, 2011, 09:17 PM
I love this level-headed quote from the pdf...

"After the erroneous substitution of GP 125cc 2-stroke with the 250cc 4-stroke and 250cc with Moto2 in the world championship speed, the necessity has arisen to create a parallel competition which will be a viable alternative to the poor technological level of the present World Championship."

but hate this quote...

"We like to stress that ecologic does not imply slow racing, because a modern 2-stroke engine running on ethanol can be more competitive than a petrol engine while having a small CO2 footprint." which seems to disregard all the science about ethanol and its 'footprint'

CaptGoodvibes
Tue Apr 5th, 2011, 01:55 AM
I posted the PDF link from sometime in march that outlined the meeting in Rome that happened on April 2. I think you'll find it immediately after your query. My excitement about that has been somewhat eclipsed by this Suter thing I knew nothing about until searching around for you.

here it is again...
"Ah... here is the official pdf for the workshop that the post summarizes...
http://www.rscycles.com/news/2_Strok...ampionship.pdf (http://www.rscycles.com/news/2_Stroke_world_championship.pdf)
I presume official announcements will be made. "

Imagine I'm friendly and quizzical in this post for that is my natural state.

I read the invitation in the form of a .pdf, and I also read the summary of the meeting your friend provided. What I don't see is any kind of official announcement on the UEM website, nor do I see any press regarding the meeting. This is the kind of link I'm requesting. It would go a long way to support the idea of a new race series at the level of MotoGP and a slightly lesser extent WSBK(although this is my favorite series in the world ;) ). Well, the invitation asserts a third series at their levels but I'm still skeptical. Of course, I wouldn't object to more televised motorcycle road racing but until I see anything outside of what you already posted, I don't believe it will happen.

edj
Tue Apr 5th, 2011, 07:04 AM
Of course we all won't believe it until we see it. The world is probably more likely to end in 2012. I imagine that if the meeting was just Saturday it will take some time for official info to get out? Seems like the pertinent search phrase is "Intercontinental Championship Race Tech."

Off to Barcelona... hope to spot some cool bikes.

CYCLE_MONKEY
Tue Apr 5th, 2011, 08:16 PM
Haha! Well, in a thread with 18 posts, 7 of them yours, I don't think you have a large enough sampling of "Colorado" but whatever. As a technical type, I want more info s'all...
And, like, he's TOTALLY from 'Ned, even! :)

CYCLE_MONKEY
Tue Apr 5th, 2011, 08:23 PM
lol @ world class commuters. Carbon brakes, active suspension, GPS traction control, the list goes on.

You go ahead and cheer on your 1960's technology with the rest of the old farts while the rest of the world encourages innovation.
Having followed "Moto GP" from the early '80's, I can tell you that only recently have the lap times been faster. And that's with what, 10 years worth of tire technology advancements, AND all the rider aids? The 2-strokes were neutered at the end by the lower-octane unleaded fuel. If the 2-stroked had continued with all the above goodies, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind they'd be faster, by a good margin. AND they're cheaper, in both the MotoGP and the Moto2 classes. 4-strokes are ALWAYS more expensive.

vort3xr6
Wed Apr 6th, 2011, 12:46 AM
Having followed "Moto GP" from the early '80's, I can tell you that only recently have the lap times been faster. And that's with what, 10 years worth of tire technology advancements, AND all the rider aids? The 2-strokes were neutered at the end by the lower-octane unleaded fuel. If the 2-stroked had continued with all the above goodies, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind they'd be faster, by a good margin. AND they're cheaper, in both the MotoGP and the Moto2 classes. 4-strokes are ALWAYS more expensive.

Innovation is never cheap!! ;)

4 strokes offer greater potential based on market demands. I have to bring up the example of the BMW S1000rr, or the new ZX-10. Meeting emissions, while producing large power, while being reliable. To me, that is innovation coming from racing.

CYCLE_MONKEY
Wed Apr 6th, 2011, 10:53 AM
Innovation is never cheap!! ;)

4 strokes offer greater potential based on market demands. I have to bring up the example of the BMW S1000rr, or the new ZX-10. Meeting emissions, while producing large power, while being reliable. To me, that is innovation coming from racing.
True, but I back my claim, having 27 years worth of stats to draw from. :) A properly designed 2-stroke, pound for pound, dicplacement for displacement, will be more powerful because it has 2 power strokes per the 4-strokes one. Why do you think they had to double the displacement initially? In the old days, both were allowed but limited to the same displacement, thus, the 4-strokes could not be competitive, even with Hondas NR500. People think they're limited to piston-port design-not true. There have been plenty of designs where instead of big bridged ports on either side for intake and exhaust, there is a band of small holes around the circumference of the cylinder, and 4 exhaust valves. They could use direct injection, and voila! Orbital in Australia I believe, has been working on something like that. The green movement killed the 2-strokes in racing....for now. Most people also don't know that the 4-stroke is actually an OLDER design than the 2-stroke, by quite a bit. It was the norm in Grand Prix racing until the 2-strokes started cleaning their clocks. If I remember right, the last 4-stroke championship before the current era was Giacomo Agostini on the MV. And, as I mentioned, 2-strokes, especially the old style, are cheaper. A 2-stroke with 4 valves as mentioned above, would be as expensive as the current 4-strokes, or maybe a little more.