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Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:09 PM
Hey all,

Check it out, stupid noob got into a massive crash. Just moved down here last year, got my first bike a few weeks ago, went on my first ride on Saturday. I was the green kawi ZX6R. So for everyone who went, tons of fun! On my way to work I got into an accident. So let me first explain what happened in detail, and then let me explain to you what my problems are. So I split from the group at Blackhawk and headed East on 191/6 to I25 South, to 225 North, to Parker South, to Quincey East (I work at Quincey and Buckley). So whole trip went well, traffic got back on Parker, ended up behind this little green Bug. Driver was young female (ended up being a new driver of 16) the time I was behind her I noticed she was playing with her phone quite a bit, what I can only assume was texting, which is illegal in CO. Anyway, I was stuck behind her, got into the left turn lane onto Quincey and we both got into the middle of the three lanes. we made the left hand turn, I was behind her, giving her ample room as any normal rider would. Between Buckley and Chambers, the traffic had slowed due to a red light at Buckley, but was now accelerating. Remember this happened at 1:30 on a Saturday, so traffic was slightly heavy. SHe was playing with her phone, looked up, realized traffic had slowed, DID NOT realize traffic was now accelerating, and decided to SLAM on her brakes coming to a complete and total stop in the middle of the street approximately 1/4 mile before the light at Buckley, which was green at the time. I was chugging along behind her at 40 mph. not speeding, but I was in 6th keeping the RPMs low. I saw her brake, I dropped into 3rd and hit both front and rear brakes, but ultimately I was unable to slow all the way down in time. I ended up rear ending her, flipping over my handlebars hitting back first into her rear window. while flying over and landing, the rest of my bike made impact and fell to the ground, I next came to the ground where I fractured my radial head in my left elbow. My total injuries include, fractured radial head in left elbow, road rash on left knee and right forearm and strained every muscle in my back including both shoulders. This guys stopped (Jason) and told me he'd be a witness, and saw the girl come to a random stop. ambulance got there along with the police, I was rushed away in ambulance. Police said I was following too closely and was found at fault. So I have no idea how to proceed, in my mind I was clearly not at fault. please let me know what you think I should do, Wolfeyez gave me the idea to call Law Tigers, which I am planning on doing, but I'd like to hear from you guys, your advice, experience, and help. I was told some of our members here in the CSC are MSF certified instructors, if any of said members reads this post will you PLEASE PM me.

If you've gotten this far through, you deserve a thank you!

Rich

Bueller
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:25 PM
Sorry to break it to you but if you were behind and couldn't avoid her you were following too close or your emergency braking skills are not were they need to be. If you saw her screwing with her phone early on that should have triggered a red flag about this driver and should have caused you to take extra precautions around her. This is a lesson to take away with you. If she would have stopped for a legitimate reason like a kid running into the road the outcome would have been the same. You have to look out for yourself because no one else will.
You can fight it if you want but I don't think it'll do you much good.

fiveninerzero
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:26 PM
Probably not what you wanted to hear, but an eerily similar situation happened to me a year ago. Luckily I was not injured like you, but I have found that Colorado law does not really protect you when you rear end someone. I ended up paying for their repairs, even though the police arrested the other driver for running away and cited them for no insurance, among other things. The policeman did not write me a ticket, but the other insurance company decided to attempt suing, which got my insurance company's attention.

My advice would be to chalk this up as a learning experience, and next time stay away from cars that have visibly distracted drivers. Also, be aware that braking is not the only solution to a problem, you always have swerving as an option.

Penadam
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:26 PM
Really sorry to hear that you and the bike are hurt, but it sounds like you're at fault. Panic braking in a sportsbike is a difficult skill, and you probably didn't brake anywhere near as hard as you thought you did. With the superior tires on your bike, it's capable of out-braking a car, but if you don't practice the skill, you won't be able to do it. The most you can probably hope for is for her to get a ticket for some kind of careless driving. Sorry again.

fiveninerzero
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:31 PM
Not to rub salt in your wounds, but I've actually sadly been on both ends of the rear end accident, and both times, the person that caused the rear end accident was the one paying, regardless of the circumstances. (First time I was rear ended by a Ford Ranger on my Ninja 500, and the second incident was the one described above.) Unfortunately, rear ends are the one type of accident where fault is black and white, 100% of the time assigned to the vehicle in the back.

Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:34 PM
there were cars on both sides of me, so i was unable to switch lanes, and I'm not ready to lane split. I'm in such shock that because some driver young and stupid, decided to brake the law and text while driving, and because of this distraction incorrectly reacted to traffic, resulting in my body adorning her back window, and I'm found at fault. Just wondering if I took it to court and summoned her texting records from the phone company and proved that she was distracted and therefore her decision making abilities were altered, if it'd help me

BC14
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:40 PM
ALWAYS assume that everyone is out to kill/crash into you. I've stayed, so far, accident free because of it. Maintain good gaps and try to, as much as you can, anticipate what the sheep in the cages are going to do. Anyone being a distracted driver, such as the way you describe the person you hit, requires extra attention.

That being said, I hope you a speedy recovery and that you take a few more classes on advanced riding technique... We all could use that here(in CO).

WolFeYeZ
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:43 PM
You might want to look through this thread some as it has some similar topics but I think someone brought up that slamming on the brakes for no reason is "break checking" and can be a deciding factor.

http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38751

I dunno if it will help much, but its just an idea. Get well soon dude and good luck :)

fiveninerzero
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:45 PM
there were cars on both sides of me, so i was unable to switch lanes, and I'm not ready to lane split.
In an emergency, you are already outside of your comfort zone. You just need to develop the muscle memory and mind state to perform these evasive maneuvers without thinking twice. Hopefully this incident does not discourage you from riding. Then again, I wasn't present on scene, so perhaps I should not speak on such events.


Just wondering if I took it to court and summoned her texting records from the phone company and proved that she was distracted and therefore her decision making abilities were altered, if it'd help me
You may be able to pursue a lawsuit on the civil side to establish civil liability, but you are then fighting an uphill, time consuming and expensive battle. A lot of it will be your word against hers as well.

Bueller
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:51 PM
there were cars on both sides of me, so i was unable to switch lanes, and I'm not ready to lane split. I'm in such shock that because some driver young and stupid, decided to brake the law and text while driving, and because of this distraction incorrectly reacted to traffic, resulting in my body adorning her back window, and I'm found at fault. Just wondering if I took it to court and summoned her texting records from the phone company and proved that she was distracted and therefore her decision making abilities were altered, if it'd help me

Even if they find that she was breaking the law by texting, and hit her brakes in error, you were still following too close and that is what you were charged with. Her actions have nothing to do with your violation.

Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 08:56 PM
Thanks for pointing out my spelling errors there Bueller, Oxycodone just doesn't mess me up like it used to. Really just trying to figure out a way to not get screwed out of 3k

Vellos
Tue May 10th, 2011, 09:48 PM
Balls. :( Stupid people are stupid, but running into the back of them is still your fault. Get well soon and I hope you don't give up on motorcycling.

Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Was really hoping to hear some better news. Thought maybe someone found a legal loophole. or how to rid the world of stupid people. As for motorcycling, I'm not sure. Doc said I might have lost slight permanent mobility in my left arm. and did a number to my back. For the time being this endeavor has been more of a financial burden than a pleasure.

~Barn~
Tue May 10th, 2011, 09:52 PM
From what I've read in this thread, you're not in any danger of getting screwed out of anything, but rather you've just invested 3k (plus pain and suffering) into yourself, to hopefully prevent something like this from ever happening again to you.

As Bueller pointed out at the beginning, you noticed that you were behind a distracted driver, but yet you weren't able to avoid slamming into the back of this person. (?) That pretty much says it all, if you ask me... But don't get too down on yourself, or the person you collided with. Just take the lesson at face value, and be thankful it wasn't worse for anybody involved.

Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 09:57 PM
well i have insurance, but doesn't do anything if I'm found at fault. so that means I just lost the bike I just bought. and i'm feeling screwed because i'm the one in extreme pain, with hospital bills, and with a totaled bike with an impound bill. just feel like this is a little unjust. I mean if this is the case, I should just go on the interstate slam on my brakes randomly and collect the insurance check when the poor bastard behind me is found at fault.

WolFeYeZ
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:07 PM
I mean if this is the case, I should just go on the interstate slam on my brakes randomly and collect the insurance check when the poor bastard behind me is found at fault.

Now that you posted that publicly, you cant :P People do it and I am assuming some get away with it too but its not an idea to really go and try. Call those law tiger guys, they are professionals and not just forum peeps giving advice. Ive never used them, but the card I saw in TFOG made them sound pretty good. And you cant top free :)

Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:10 PM
yea i definitely will. thanks a lot bro. as for my "plan" not thinking about it at all. just pissed off about the whole thing. I definitely feel like the system is a little flawed

CaptGoodvibes
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:20 PM
Just to clarify, this was on your very first ride day and you have zero training correct?

Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:26 PM
not my first day riding, but my first official CSC ride, yes.

CaneZach
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:34 PM
Interesting thread going on in here. Yes, she was unlawfully stopped in the roadway. Yes, she was likely texting. She was also a very inexperienced driver. But none of that changes the fact that you failed to maintain a safe distance between you and her. I'd suggest talking with your insurance company first. They sure as hell don't want to pay for her car, so they'll gladly look for any reason to fight it. With that said, you will probably end up paying the ticket.

Vellos
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:38 PM
He came out for my ride and broke off 1/3 through to get to work. But yes you (Revan) have very little experience and more could have avoided this situation. Most of us just get lucky when we're just starting out and have close-call situations that we learn from... you are learning the hard way. I'm sorry for what happened, always sucks to have a fellow rider go down, but rear ending someone is still your fault*. :(

*Unless you can prove braking abruptly was intentional act against you (Ramon's case).

Also when people get injured, traumatically and especially head, some of the stuff you remember happening, such as she being very far from the light or coming to a complete/abrupt stop, didn't really. Not saying that you're lying, the brain just tries to fill some blanks and I've seen it happen before. If you can get video (traffic camera footage?) it may help your insurance situation.

Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:41 PM
maybe i didn't post this correctly... I know i'm getting the ticket. honestly the ticket i couldn't care less about. its the bike i care about. if she's at fault, i get money from her insurance to pay for it. if i'm found at fault by insurance, my insurance pays for her car, my rates go up, and i get nothing for my bike. I was looking for some help with insurance, im not experienced with crashes and dealing with insurance companies. thats the part i'm concerned about. does this change anything?

CaneZach
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:45 PM
Hmmm, seems to me I already said call your insurance company and talk to them, but I could be mistaken. If I didn't mention calling your insurance company two posts up, allow me to say CALL YOUR INSURANCE PROVIDER!

~Barn~
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:46 PM
<Snip...> if she's at fault, i get money from her insurance to pay for it. if i'm found at fault by insurance, my insurance pays for her car, my rates go up, and i get nothing for my bike. <Snip..>


Why wouldn't your insurance cover your motorcycle loss, and give you some $ to get a new one [or help pay this one off]?

Regardless of fault, collision insurance coverage is collision insurance coverage. I hope you have it, and that your deductible is reasonable.

Vellos
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:49 PM
He may not have collision insurance. I ride with liability (their cars) and comprehensive (damn thieves).

Also, Revan, see my last post, I edited recently.

Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:51 PM
Haha I already called them. The adjuster should call be before noon tomorrow. But I have some very specific questions for a MSF instructor. Anyone know one personally?

WolFeYeZ
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:53 PM
He may not have collision insurance. I ride with liability (their cars) and comprehensive (damn thieves).

I'm surprised that with crashing an all right outside your dealership you wouldnt have collision :P Especially since you go to the twisties so often. That was the main piece I made sure to have, since I expect to crash sometime in my life :P

Revan
Tue May 10th, 2011, 10:54 PM
Good edit, as for the accident, I have a witness. And I know she was completely stopped on impact bc I fell straight down didn't have any rotation at all. And after I got out of the ER I went back to check it out, and there was still pieces of my headlights on the road so I got a good estimate of distance. Thanks for all your guys help and advice. I think my biggest blessing is my witness (granted he tells it how I remember it lol)

Zach929rr
Tue May 10th, 2011, 11:15 PM
Haha I already called them. The adjuster should call be before noon tomorrow. But I have some very specific questions for a MSF instructor. Anyone know one personally?

I think one of the "Abate" titled members is an instructor by the name of Kevin. I THINK he is the same guy I had when I went through the class @ Red Rocks, but not certain.

Vellos
Tue May 10th, 2011, 11:18 PM
I'm surprised that with crashing an all right outside your dealership you wouldnt have collision :P Especially since you go to the twisties so often. That was the main piece I made sure to have, since I expect to crash sometime in my life :P

In most motorcycle crashes/collisions insurance claims the bike as totaled. Scratches from a drop costs about as much as the deductible to repair. And collision doesn't cover a crash at the track where I push myself. It's cheaper just to save my money for when something actually happens ($720 a year).

Zach929rr
Tue May 10th, 2011, 11:20 PM
And collision doesn't cover a crash at the track where I push myself.

FYI, full coverage will cover you at track day as long as your aren't engaging in a "competition", depending on carrier obviously. But at that point, you might as well just say you binned it in the canyons and had a friend pick you up.

WolFeYeZ
Tue May 10th, 2011, 11:25 PM
Congratulations Vellos, you are person number 999,999,999 to be politely shown that you are wrong on CSC. How does it feel? I wonder who the billionth will be :up::up::up:

Vellos
Tue May 10th, 2011, 11:26 PM
But at that point, you might as well just say you binned it in the canyons and had a friend pick you up.

http://www.seoboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/implied-facepalm.jpg

Zach929rr
Tue May 10th, 2011, 11:28 PM
Tommy Lee Jones reads that newspaper faster than I ride.

Vellos
Tue May 10th, 2011, 11:36 PM
Tommy Lee Jones reads that newspaper faster than I ride.

When it's time for a new bike do you undo your front calipers and go for a spin? :)

Ezzzzy1
Wed May 11th, 2011, 02:10 AM
Im sorry man... I hate the gray area of the law.

Im not sure that there is anyway (even if what you are saying is understood by everyone on this page) that you could get "out/off" of this ticket. Was she given a ticket for careless or reckless driving? If she was you could have the "fault" proven to be her MAYBE.

It sucks because you could have been 100 feet behind her but in Colorado "following to closely" is the ticket given ANYTIME someone rear ends someone else, no matter the reason:(

CaneZach
Wed May 11th, 2011, 06:08 AM
And I know she was completely stopped on impact bc I fell straight down didn't have any rotation at all.

Wut? A lack of rotation simply means the forces acting between you and the car were linear and in-line with your center of mass.

CaptGoodvibes
Wed May 11th, 2011, 07:02 AM
Bottom line, a brand new rider on a 600 crashed into the back of a car. Rider knew the driver was sketchy and still crashed. Seems training is is order.

BC14
Wed May 11th, 2011, 07:47 AM
Wut? A lack of rotation simply means the forces acting between you and the car were linear and in-line with your center of mass.
This guy DEFINITELY knows what he is talking about :hibye:

Devaclis
Wed May 11th, 2011, 07:58 AM
You should always ride VERY scared. Like everyone is going to kill you. Bikes are dangerous. No matter what happens, you NEED TO RIDE SCARED.

I think it was 100% her fault for being a girl.

birchyboy
Wed May 11th, 2011, 07:58 AM
It's too late now, and I wouldn't recommend you do this, but this is how you might be able to get out of a ticket for rear ending someone if there weren't any witnesses. I only know this because a woman ran into my 4Runner while it was parked in front of my house. Here's how she did it, right or wrong:

She hit my parked 4Runner while she was going about 40mph. She hit the driver's side rear quarter, pushing my truck about 20 feet down the road. She hit her head on her steering wheel, got knocked out and coasted about 100 feet until being stopped by a curb. When the officer arrived, she told them that a red car had forced her into my truck. Since there was no witness, the cop couldn't refute her story so he couldn't ticket her.

Since she wasn't ticketed, my insurance had to pay for my truck - it was "totaled" in the accident. They went after her insurance but they refused to pay because of a lack of ticket. It was quite a site for me; I'm working, looking out my window towards the street, and there goes my truck rolling down the road. I thought it was being stolen and ran outside, only to find it had pinned my fence gate closed and then I saw a smoking Thunderbird down the street. There were no brake marks from her car but my truck left 2 nice long rubber strips. I ran down the street, saw here wailing in pain (her teeth were on the floor) trying to text someone and called 911.

dirkterrell
Wed May 11th, 2011, 08:16 AM
Sorry to break it to you but if you were behind and couldn't avoid her you were following too close or your emergency braking skills are not were they need to be. If you saw her screwing with her phone early on that should have triggered a red flag about this driver and should have caused you to take extra precautions around her. This is a lesson to take away with you.

Revan, take the above advice to heart. It is exactly the frame of mind you need to be in if you are going to avoid getting hurt. You really do need to take note of what drivers are doing and adjust your riding accordingly. About once a week, I have someone do something stupid that could lead to a nasty situation if I didn't see that it was coming. With the distractions that people have these days, you simply cannot expect that they will do the right thing. You need to make sure that you can react safely when they do the wrong thing, because they will.

UglyDogRacing
Wed May 11th, 2011, 08:27 AM
Revan, I don't know if you have taken the MSF BRC or not, but it may be helpful for you to read Unit IV Street Strategies starting on page 25 a few times before you get on a bike again http://www.msf-usa.org/CurriculumMaterials/BRC_Handbook_Vs71_noprint.pdf

bornwildnfree
Wed May 11th, 2011, 08:30 AM
Haha I already called them. The adjuster should call be before noon tomorrow. But I have some very specific questions for a MSF instructor. Anyone know one personally?

Spiderman will soon be a MSF instructor.

Ricky
Wed May 11th, 2011, 08:53 AM
Bueller is right. Unfortunately, no matter how stupid people are on the road, you have to assume that they are going to, and are actually making an effort to kill you by smearing you all over the road. Always assume that a car in front of you is going to slam on its brakes, and you are going to smash into the back of it. I tend to ride closer to the lane lines when closer to vehicles, and in heavier traffic. If something like that were to happen, at least I can split between vehicles.

Hell, just yesterday, I turned left onto 104th from I25 and was accelerating (left lane of 3) and saw a car turning to come out in front of me from the right. I didn't know it yet, but I assumed it was going to cut across all 3 lanes and that if I had kept accelerating, I would end up in the path of that car and get hit. I immediately dropped the throttle and grabbed brake and slowed down. Sure enough, car cuts across, doesn't even LOOK, and would have hit me. Some old lady...

Also, never focus at the car in front of you... always look at the car in front of the car in front of you, and beyond that. Sucks to hear about the wreck, and I hope you heal up. I just don't think you will have luck in court with this one, unless you have some good video evidence.

MetaLord 9
Wed May 11th, 2011, 08:56 AM
Spiderman will soon be a MSF instructor.
http://www.stanceiseverything.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/mother-of-god-super-troopers.jpg

usmcab35
Wed May 11th, 2011, 09:03 AM
sorry to hear about your wreck, i met you at the ride, i was on the busa, hope you heal up soon and dont give up riding because of a crappy situation. All the posts above are correct, you should have moved away from this person or kept a greater distance, we all get in these butt puckering braking situtations from time to time, but seeing bad stuff before it becomes bad can help you avoid getting in to trouble.. hope to see you out on the road again!

jbnwc
Wed May 11th, 2011, 09:10 AM
you simply cannot expect that they will do the right thing. You need to make sure that you can react safely when they do the wrong thing, because they will.

^^^^^ Prevention is key. Do your best to avoid the accident in the first place. Ride PARANOID. However, if you want to get out of paying for accidents that truly aren't your fault, get a gopro and keep it running while you ride.

Sarge
Wed May 11th, 2011, 09:12 AM
Not quite the same thing, but I was riding home from work the other day and was merging due to construction. I looked into my rear and saw some old lady a good 100+ feet behind me, but I would have been forced to make a pretty quick stop. Nothing extreme, especially not for me, but I just had this gut feeling that this lady wouldn't be able to stop in time, so I dropped a gear and squeezed up a few more cars. I wasn't all the way to the end of the merge, the lane to my left was still open a bit, I was just trying not to be "that guy" that flies down the merge lane to drop in at the last second. I saw a space, moved in to it, looked in my mirror and was convinced this lady would NOT stop in time, and hopped out right quick, moved up a few cars, and then back in.

TurboGizzmo
Wed May 11th, 2011, 12:35 PM
MSF course = racing toward your instructor and at the last minute they drop their left or right hand and you have to swerve in the instructed direction, followed by racing over 40mph and breaking within a box withOUT locking up the back tire.....and then doing it all over and over and over and over and over again....and its worth it.

usmcab35
Wed May 11th, 2011, 12:49 PM
MSF course = racing toward your instructor and at the last minute they drop their left or right hand and you have to swerve in the instructed direction, followed by racing over 40mph and breaking within a box withOUT locking up the back tire.....and then doing it all over and over and over and over and over again....and its worth it.

yea that was the best thing i learned in msf, i practice still to this day if there is no one on the road. practice make pretty close to perfect...

cptschlongenheimer
Wed May 11th, 2011, 01:30 PM
My wife passed the msf last weekend. I took this friday off just cause I plan on putting her back through all those exercises on her own ride. Not gonna turn her loose without making sure that quick stop is second nature.

Sully
Wed May 11th, 2011, 01:36 PM
I'm still confused about this person going 40mph in 6th gear.. :wtf:


Anyway.. please tell me you didn't only have liability insurance on your bike? Either way, bummer this happened to you. Heal up quick and hopefully you can get another bike soon.

WolFeYeZ
Wed May 11th, 2011, 01:58 PM
Gas.

Revan
Wed May 11th, 2011, 03:28 PM
well I do thank you all for your valuable information. I'm going to pick the bike up from Impound today. My friend and previous owner of the bike (Social4Life) checked it out this morning. From his initial evaluation, he doesn't think there is any damage to frame, fork or front wheel, which i think is actually pretty lucky. I'm going to get a WHOLE new set of plastics, which I'm not too excited about, but like I said, it could be a lot worse. I talked to the Insurance Adjuster, he said that fault is based on a percentage system. He said that depending on what my witness says, and what she says, and what the police report says, he might be able to find her at a partial percentage at fault. Someone said earlier that my insurance wouldn't want to fix her car, and they were right. He said Colorado state law is pretty black and white on this, and I will be found at fault, and I will receive the tickets. He said he might be able to find her at 30 to 50 percent at fault, which would get 30 to 50 percent of the damage to my bike covered by her insurance. So there is hope for me after all. Last night when i posted this, I was seriously drugged up and fuming pissed. I really thought I'd never ride again. Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure what the future holds for me, I sure would love to fix her up, but money is pretty tight, and this hasn't done any help to my checkbook. Anyway, thanks guys, a lot of good (and completely useless :jerkoff:) information was posted. So onto the next order of business, anyone got some cheap plastics that will fit an 01 zx 6r!?

Zach929rr
Wed May 11th, 2011, 03:30 PM
Aftermarket plastics aren't too hard to put on.

MetaLord 9
Wed May 11th, 2011, 03:41 PM
You rear ended someone at a high enough speed to pitch you over the handle bars and onto her back window, upside down, and your front wheel, forks and steering stem are all perfectly fine? Hmmmmm, I'd double check on that one. Not saying anyone's wrong here, just saying that with that much force, it's pretty darn likely something on that bike bent or was damaged aside from the plastics.

Hopefully I'm wrong and a cheap set of plastics is a really affordable lesson!

Revan
Wed May 11th, 2011, 04:06 PM
Metalord I honestly agree with you. My first reaction was the bike wasn't even worth the 250 to pull out of impound. But i'm going there today to inspect it. Gonna take it home, take off the forks and wheel, and check it all out. I'm pray to the motorcycle gods they're fine. Social's been riding a while, and has owned a few bikes. I trust his initial thoughts. we will pull them off and do further investigation. So I was reading online about the Kawi bikes. Someone said that the ZX6r was basically re released as the 05 zzr model touring bike, and used the EXACT same plastics, just with different paint jobs. can anyone verify this? or does anyone know how I can check into this? Ebay has some full fairings kits for my bike for like 600 to 900 bucks. Not really interested in dropping that much. But the newer zzr kits seem to be a little cheaper, but idk if they'd line up perfectly or not.

Bueller
Wed May 11th, 2011, 04:18 PM
This too is a part of motorcycling, get the mechanical issues fixed and you can still ride it. The bodywork can be repaired/replaced as it becomes available, just be patient and watch CL and ebay, then paint the thing when you complete it. Perhaps the streetfighter look, naked bikes don't sustain body damage in drops and crashes.

Revan
Wed May 11th, 2011, 04:21 PM
Ah good point... honestly hadn't considered this. So just need a new head light assembly in that case

CaneZach
Wed May 11th, 2011, 04:30 PM
Your generation ZX6 and the current ZZR are the same bike, so parts should be interchangeable.

Finklestein87
Thu May 12th, 2011, 08:39 AM
Ouch man, sorry to hear. Back pain is no joke, hope that heals well for ya.

Faults aside, you made it pretty clear the driver was driving carelessly (texting and driving) and if i was there i would have passed her, and if there was traffic on each side, slow down and then change lanes, getting behind one of those drivers.

To be totally honest, motorcycles should not be rear ending anyone. As vulnerable riders we should be wayy more aware than a caged drivers to road conditions and traffic.

brennahm
Thu May 12th, 2011, 09:23 AM
Who keeps telling you guys that bikes brake better than cars?

usmcab35
Thu May 12th, 2011, 09:46 AM
Who keeps telling you guys that bikes brake better than cars?

i was wondering the same thing, i could probably out brake a 1940's car with 4 wheel drum brakes but out brake a sports car with brembo's all around? dont think so.

cptschlongenheimer
Thu May 12th, 2011, 10:17 AM
Sorry, I respectfully disagree. At least when it come to modern sportbikes... cruisers are a diff story..
How many actual sports cars do you see around here?
Hint: If the dealer describes it as "sporty", it isn't.
Modern supersports can out brake just about any car. But you have to be ready to do it (covering in heavy traffic) and you have to be able to do it well (practice)

cptschlongenheimer
Thu May 12th, 2011, 10:32 AM
from road and track in '94...

asp_125
Thu May 12th, 2011, 10:34 AM
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/100/6917/Motorcycle-Article/2010-Ducati-1198S-Comparison-Street.aspx


In the braking test the Duc earned the runner-up spot, halting in a distance of 121 feet from 60 mph. That’s just three feet behind the BMW without the advantage of an ABS-system.


http://www.edmunds.com/lotus/elise/2008/


The 2008 Lotus Elise's non-power steering feels as natural as anything we've ever driven. Braking is handled by AP Racing two-piston calipers up front and Brembo single-piston calipers in back (11.5-inch rotors all around), and 60-0 braking distances under 110 feet are commonplace.

0-100-0 bikes win because of their smaller mass = quicker acceleration / decelleration.
60-0 is a more common real-world situation, like coming to a stop on I-25 at rush hour.

cptschlongenheimer
Thu May 12th, 2011, 11:12 AM
Is a lotus a real world comparison though? It's basically a supersport with four wheels and its performance numbers reflect as much.
I'm saying that the modern supersports that we ride everyday and should be well acquainted with how to stop, should be able to outbrake all of the VW bugs, land yacht SUV's and four door sedans that make up 95% of the cars on the road. Are there exceptions? of course there are. but the vast majority of cars on the road (especially when you consider the car driver's skill level) are not high performance sports cars. No matter what mazda would have you think.

Revan
Thu May 12th, 2011, 11:16 AM
thats some really good info. thanks guys. so i spent this morning (nasty weather) turning it into a street fighter minus the head light assembly lol. so i know this is redundant, but I can buy the CURRENT generation ZZR headlight assembly, and it will match up PERFECTLY with my 2001 ZX6R?

usmcab35
Thu May 12th, 2011, 11:32 AM
i honestly have no idea if a bike can actually out brake a car, but seems to me that its somewhat close. then again i still think cars have the advantage. but what do i know...

WolFeYeZ
Thu May 12th, 2011, 11:44 AM
My 400lb r6 definitely outbrakes my 3 ton land cruiser. Not so sure about smaller cars or sports cars though. Sounds like more physics of traction that I don't know :P

Penadam
Thu May 12th, 2011, 11:50 AM
Once the brakes on a vehicle have the ability to lock the wheel up, braking becomes less about the brakes and more about how much traction the tires have. As most modern cars and bikes can lock up the brakes (hence ABS) it comes down to the braking force the tires can provide. If you run the math on it, in a simplified world, the mass of a vehicle is not relevant in how hard it can brake, it's solely dependent on the coefficient of friction. In the real world, you run into heat dissipation, tire deformation, suspension settings and weight transfer, etc... which complicates things.

Bottom line is, basically all sportsbikes with good tires are capable of outbraking the majority of cars on the road.

Vellos
Thu May 12th, 2011, 11:55 AM
Revan you can just buy a streetfighter headlight assembly (round headlights with a non-fairing mount). Please see this (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39122) thread about Kevin's 2001 ZX6R. Maybe ask him for some advice?

cptschlongenheimer
Thu May 12th, 2011, 11:57 AM
I'm not the expert here either... Maybe our physicists can enlighten the masses?

Revan
Thu May 12th, 2011, 11:57 AM
hahah thanks a lot vellos. exactly what i was looking for

Vehicle 1
Thu May 12th, 2011, 01:05 PM
If you run the math on it, in a simplified world, the mass of a vehicle is not relevant in how hard it can brake, it's solely dependent on the coefficient of friction. In the real world, you run into heat dissipation, tire deformation, suspension settings and weight transfer, etc... which complicates things.

I'm really trying to understand what you mean here... the mentioned friction force depends on the component of the weight normal to the surface (road), and the coefficient of friction between the surfaces. What math are you doing to be able to cancel the normal component of the weigh? Inertia equations or something? Static vs. Kinetic? Kinematics? Assumptions? Just curious.

cptschlongenheimer
Thu May 12th, 2011, 01:21 PM
Part of it is technique too. If you load the front end first then apply max brake (separate but rapid) you get much better results than just grabbing a shitload of lever in a blind panic. Your (front) contact patch and corresponding available braking traction increase and then get used to their max when done right

CaneZach
Thu May 12th, 2011, 02:13 PM
Once the brakes on a vehicle have the ability to lock the wheel up, braking becomes less about the brakes and more about how much traction the tires have. As most modern cars and bikes can lock up the brakes (hence ABS) it comes down to the braking force the tires can provide. If you run the math on it, in a simplified world, the mass of a vehicle is not relevant in how hard it can brake, it's solely dependent on the coefficient of friction. In the real world, you run into heat dissipation, tire deformation, suspension settings and weight transfer, etc... which complicates things.

Bottom line is, basically all sportsbikes with good tires are capable of outbraking the majority of cars on the road.

Agreed. The formula for determining speed from a skid (doesn't need to skid, mind you) is derived from the work energy theorem, which cancels out weight. Sportbikes have been known to generate a stopping force greater than 1G, greater than the roadway's coefficient of friction. Your average Toyota or Ford with ABS can reach about a 0.85. Granted, you need to have experience riding in order to achieve that 1G of stopping force, but it can be done.

Vehicle 1
Thu May 12th, 2011, 02:26 PM
Based on the equations, locked wheels and other assumptions yes mass cancels out... but based on the systems that are acting on a vehicle, mass plays a big role I think.

vort3xr6
Thu May 12th, 2011, 02:51 PM
The most limiting component in emergency braking on the street is the rider. 99% of us cannot reach maximum braking efficiency on a motorcycle. I race, and I know I still can't. A car is easier. Mash the foot and you are at 100% maximum braking. Some of you may think you are at 100% when most likely due to bad form, incorrect technique, are realistically around 60% braking or less.

cptschlongenheimer
Thu May 12th, 2011, 03:06 PM
Don't get me wrong...
I know I'm not god's gift to braking.
I do go practice often though. The wreck that killed my EX500 was similar to what revan experienced. Driver made illegal left right in front of me. However, what caused me to crash was two factors, both my fault.
1- I was not scanning aggressively enough. Had i been, I would've seen him getting ready to take my right of way.
2- I did not properly brake. I was only going 20-ish and had 15 feet or so to stop but I immediately locked both wheels and skidded straight into the side of his truck.

Hindsight being what it is I now go practice quick stops in empty parking lots at least every couple weeks for 5-10 mins. I know it's saved me at least once from making the same mistake as before.

Penadam
Thu May 12th, 2011, 03:42 PM
The most limiting component in emergency braking on the street is the rider. 99% of us cannot reach maximum braking efficiency on a motorcycle. I race, and I know I still can't. A car is easier. Mash the foot and you are at 100% maximum braking. Some of you may think you are at 100% when most likely due to bad form, incorrect technique, are realistically around 60% braking or less.

Totally true. Practicing braking from highway speeds is a good exercise.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakebiasandperformance.shtml

Not a motorcycle article, but has great information on braking and weight transfer. Just remember there will be almost 0 weight on the rear wheel during hard braking on a bike.

vort3xr6
Thu May 12th, 2011, 03:48 PM
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/2011/dmg/utahtest/3/9Z.jpg


Practicing braking might help, but I still believe only professional racers know how to stop a motorcycle the quickest, without washing out the front end.

cbrjohnny
Thu May 12th, 2011, 06:04 PM
if she was such a bad phone driver you probably should have been watching her a little closer...bummer dude.