Tire Suggestions? (Better than Q2s?)

[Ghost]

I've got about 300-600 miles on my Q2s (I can check my records at home, but I'm not there at the moment) and I absolutely hate them.

I know everyone loves them, I know they should be great tires, but I'm not enjoying them at all. Maybe mine were messed up in the factory, or in storage, or whatever else, but they and I do not get along.

I find them sluggish to warm up, I find them to be slippery in the "cold" of any 40-60 degree day, and I just don't find them to be "confidence inspiring" in the least. Maybe I just hate the dual-compound nature of the tire. I'm not sure what it is, really, but I almost preferred the OEM Qualifiers that came on my bike--at least they seemed more predictable--especially in the cold.

I usually run Michelins or Bridgestones, and I've run mostly DOT-race or the various "trackday" high-performance street compounds. While I prefer Michelins or Bridgestones, I'd run whatever suits the bike and my style best--so usually I'd ask the guys in the shop who were still racing what was the best pick of the moment.

But, since I'm not working at the dealership any more, I've lost touch with what's the "Best" tire on the market--and by that I mean the grippiest over a wide range of temperatures, with a quick warm-up and good adhesion at the limits with a predictable/smooth/controlled break-away when you go past the limits.

So, since I'm relatively out of the loop, and I don't trust the various magazine comparisons (since most of them voted for the Q2s), I'm looking for suggestions from people who ride moderately aggressively in the canyons as well as on the track. And who ride in the rain, possibly in the sleet, and of course, in the dry.


Bike: 2009 CBR 600RR
Riding Style/Tire Use: Spirited canyon rides, track days

Suggestions: ???

Thanks!

[Foolds]

Give the boys over at 303 a shout they can help you pick something out.. are you interested in selling the q2's? The Girls r6 needs tires before the track day

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I've got about 300-600 miles on my Q2s (I can check my records at home, but I'm not there at the moment) and I absolutely hate them.

I know everyone loves them, I know they should be great tires, but I'm not enjoying them at all. Maybe mine were messed up in the factory, or in storage, or whatever else, but they and I do not get along.

I find them sluggish to warm up, I find them to be slippery in the "cold" of any 40-60 degree day, and I just don't find them to be "confidence inspiring" in the least. Maybe I just hate the dual-compound nature of the tire. I'm not sure what it is, really, but I almost preferred the OEM Qualifiers that came on my bike--at least they seemed more predictable--especially in the cold.

I usually run Michelins or Bridgestones, and I've run mostly DOT-race or the various "trackday" high-performance street compounds. While I prefer Michelins or Bridgestones, I'd run whatever suits the bike and my style best--so usually I'd ask the guys in the shop who were still racing what was the best pick of the moment.

But, since I'm not working at the dealership any more, I've lost touch with what's the "Best" tire on the market--and by that I mean the grippiest over a wide range of temperatures, with a quick warm-up and good adhesion at the limits with a predictable/smooth/controlled break-away when you go past the limits.

So, since I'm relatively out of the loop, and I don't trust the various magazine comparisons (since most of them voted for the Q2s), I'm looking for suggestions from people who ride moderately aggressively in the canyons as well as on the track. And who ride in the rain, possibly in the sleet, and of course, in the dry.


Bike: 2009 CBR 600RR
Riding Style/Tire Use: Spirited canyon rides, track days

Suggestions: ???

Thanks!
I have been running the Metzler M3's for many years, and they are very quick to warm up, and very trustworthy. I got a set for under $200 recently! Check the "tire Mileage" thread.

[rybo]

Take this for what it's worth:

The Q2 is a perfectly capable tire. I think what you're experiencing is a set up problem more than a tire problem. I would ask the following questions before bailing on the Q2's and getting something else:

1) What tire did you come from?
2) Did you make any suspension or geometry changes when switching tires?
3) Are you sure that you're running the correct pressures?
4) How many miles are on your bike?
5) When the wheels were re-installed after the tire change what did you do to make sure that they were properly aligned?
6) When was the last time the oil in your forks and shock was changed?


I give you this parable from my racing this weekend to illustrate my point about tire pressures:

I race a 1997 Ducati 748. This bike is almost world renowned for it's chassis stability. This is my 5th season racing this bike and in that time I've raced it on 5 different brands or styles of tires. Through all of that I would agree, this is one of the most stable racing platforms ever. Never in it's history has it developed headshake, until this weekend when exiting T2 at PPIR onto the back straight the thing developed a wicked case of it. Lap after lap, time after time in my first race the thing tried to shake me off.

After talking it through with a trusted friend we decided to take 2 PSI of air out of the front tire. Guess what? Problem went away.

Tire pressure is perhaps the most important adjustment you can make to your motorcycle.

End of parable.


Answer the questions above, it will get us pointed in the right direction. I suspect that the problem isn't the tires themselves.

s

[CaneZach]

The first thing I thought of was tire pressure. Check with Scer (Oscar) about what the correct pressures should be for your riding style.

ETA: Scer's recommendations are in this thread.
http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38048&highlight=tire+pressures

34 front
38 rear in the city
35 rear in the canyons
28-32 on the track

[brennahm]

I rode a set of Q2's once on a friend's bike (same bike I have) and despised them. Experienced all the same qualities you described. Good luck.

[Ghost]

Rybo,

Thanks for the help, let me go through the questions below.

1) What tire did you come from?
Michelin Pilot Power (non-2CT DOT Race Soft Front/Rear)

2) Did you make any suspension or geometry changes when switching tires?
No, I didn't, was going to at the next track day since I figured that'd be best way to set it properly and get the help I'd need setting it up.

3) Are you sure that you're running the correct pressures?
I started at the factory settings, then since I've read various posts and talked to some of the guys at the shop, I've been lowering them.

I tried 33/35 and I'm currently at 30.5 Front/33.5 Rear and, as of last ride, I'll admit they're better than when they were at 36/36, but I'm still not loving them and I don't think I can go any lower...

4) How many miles are on your bike?
Just over 1k

(this is the twin to my other 2009 CBR600RR that I got last year, but which was sold to me as new after the dealership'd already sold it once and it had a loan on the VIN--so after a lot of back and forth with Honda--since the dealership was out of business--they took that one back and I got this one instead).

5) When the wheels were re-installed after the tire change what did you do to make sure that they were properly aligned?
Didn't, I assumed the guys at the shop did that

6) When was the last time the oil in your forks and shock was changed?
Bike's new, so it'd be the OEM fill


Give the boys over at 303 a shout they can help you pick something out.. are you interested in selling the q2's? The Girls r6 needs tires before the track day Depending on what Rybo thinks, if it's just irreconcilable differences and the tires and I simply are not getting along then I will definitely sell them.

[Ghost]

I rode a set of Q2's once on a friend's bike (same bike I have) and despised them. Experienced all the same qualities you described. Good luck.

Yeah, my cousin in PA and my friend here have Q2s as well, and they've had similar experiences to mine...so I'm not sure what's up or why it's happening...other people completely *LOVE* the Q2s...so, I'm at a loss...

[CaneZach]

3) Are you sure that you're running the correct pressures?
I started at the factory settings, then since I've read various posts and talked to some of the guys at the shop, I've been lowering them.

I tried 33/35 and I'm currently at 30.5 Front/33.5 Rear and, as of last ride, I'll admit they're better than when they were at 36/36, but I'm still not loving them and I don't think I can go any lower...



Read my post about Scer's pressure recommendations.

Some tires just don't agree with some people. I liked the Pilot Powers and 2CT's, really liked the BT-016's, and now have the Q2's. I don't have a real sample of rides on the Q2's to say whether I like them or not, but I also haven't had any issues with them.

[brennahm]

I've had people give me recommendations before and found them to be kinda not valuable...you have to consider the source.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Take this for what it's worth:

The Q2 is a perfectly capable tire. I think what you're experiencing is a set up problem more than a tire problem. I would ask the following questions before bailing on the Q2's and getting something else:

1) What tire did you come from?
2) Did you make any suspension or geometry changes when switching tires?
3) Are you sure that you're running the correct pressures?
4) How many miles are on your bike?
5) When the wheels were re-installed after the tire change what did you do to make sure that they were properly aligned?
6) When was the last time the oil in your forks and shock was changed?


I give you this parable from my racing this weekend to illustrate my point about tire pressures:

I race a 1997 Ducati 748. This bike is almost world renowned for it's chassis stability. This is my 5th season racing this bike and in that time I've raced it on 5 different brands or styles of tires. Through all of that I would agree, this is one of the most stable racing platforms ever. Never in it's history has it developed headshake, until this weekend when exiting T2 at PPIR onto the back straight the thing developed a wicked case of it. Lap after lap, time after time in my first race the thing tried to shake me off.

After talking it through with a trusted friend we decided to take 2 PSI of air out of the front tire. Guess what? Problem went away.

Tire pressure is perhaps the most important adjustment you can make to your motorcycle.

End of parable.


Answer the questions above, it will get us pointed in the right direction. I suspect that the problem isn't the tires themselves.

s
All great advice as usual Rybo. I think there's a caveat though. If these tires are sensitive enough that a mere 2psi causes them to be an issue, then I'd certainly not want to run them on the street. I know the M3's probably don't grip as well under race conditions, but for the street, they're certainly more tire than I am rider, and I get by well enough I guess. I expect a street tire to warm up quickly, to be predictable (if not ultra-grippy) before and after getting up to temp, and best of all, forgiving. maybe that's what he's looking for as well as opposed to all-out grip in a narrow/perfect heat and pressure range?

[rybo]

1) What tire did you come from?
Michelin Pilot Power (non-2CT DOT Race Soft Front/Rear)

Pilot Power or Power Race?
The reason I ask is that these are two really different tires.

2) Did you make any suspension or geometry changes when switching tires?
No, I didn't, was going to at the next track day since I figured that'd be best way to set it properly and get the help I'd need setting it up.

Especially if you were coming from the Power Race, you would almost HAVE to make a geometry change to the bike. The original Power Race tires were pretty pointy and the Q2 is pretty round by comparison.

3) Are you sure that you're running the correct pressures?
I started at the factory settings, then since I've read various posts and talked to some of the guys at the shop, I've been lowering them.

I tried 33/35 and I'm currently at 30.5 Front/33.5 Rear and, as of last ride, I'll admit they're better than when they were at 36/36, but I'm still not loving them and I don't think I can go any lower...

I'm not an expert on Q2 pressures, I'll leave that to Oscar, but it sounds like you're trying the right things. Try reversing the ratio, making the front tire slightly harder than the rear tire.

4) How many miles are on your bike?
Just over 1k

(this is the twin to my other 2009 CBR600RR that I got last year, but which was sold to me as new after the dealership'd already sold it once and it had a loan on the VIN--so after a lot of back and forth with Honda--since the dealership was out of business--they took that one back and I got this one instead).

Damn. That sounds like an adventure.

5) When the wheels were re-installed after the tire change what did you do to make sure that they were properly aligned?
Didn't, I assumed the guys at the shop did that

Check this for sure! There are several good guides on the internet for checking wheel alignment on the bike. The rear wheel even being a degree or two off can really make a big difference in how the bike handles and feels on the road.

6) When was the last time the oil in your forks and shock was changed?
Bike's new, so it'd be the OEM fill

Good to know.


Honda bikes are notoriously undersprung in the front, I'm not saying that this is your problem since you liked the bike with different tires, but the front of Honda Sportbikes tend to have way too light of springs in them for the average american male rider.

Hope this is helpful.

I would start by checking wheel alignment.

[Ghost]

Read my post about Scer's pressure recommendations.

Some tires just don't agree with some people. I liked the Pilot Powers and 2CT's, really liked the BT-016's, and now have the Q2's. I don't have a real sample of rides on the Q2's to say whether I like them or not, but I also haven't had any issues with them.

Yeah, I guess it was that post that started me on the path to messing with the pressures to begin with, I didn't realize it was Scer's until you linked to it.

Here's the section that's most applicable:


To put it simply.. yes, the Dunlops as a whole (including the Q2s) now are a different breed. (FYI, Q2's is the skinny hot supermodel daughter of the championship winning N-Tec UK GP race tires) Back on 04-ish, the AMA level Dunlop race team had released a type of tire called a New Technology (N-Tec) tire. These tires were different in many ways. 2 of them being the lower riding pressures (From 40 F to 33 F and 33 R to 23 R) and JLB manufacturing. JLB "basically" means that no matter how fast you spin that tire it won't grow in size. (To be totally honest, if it does grow it will be a matter of very very few millimeters).

This helps because if you have ever had a bike that was not quite right geometric wise, you might find that the bike will "waddle" as you ride faster. This was due to tire growth.

SO, giving a standard pressure of 34 is an all encompassing value. Basically the tire is so dynamic that 34PSI covers you for all the riding that you will do. The rear is more particular just because of the fact it's bigger and the power distribution tire.

Could I recommend you do 36 for street, 34 for canyon and 32 for track? ..sure. But it's not necessary. The Q2's are not that specific. (especially in the front where the change of values are only 6% where as inversely the range of values in the rear is 26%) The street tire is very forgiving and meant to work on a wide range of variables. My DOT race tires are not so forgiving and have a smaller range of positive usability. Slicks are an even smaller range.

I could, and do, tell my riders to use the race front at a 33 recommended front PSI. However, there are times when the weather is too cold or hot or the track surface is different from one place to another.. that's when we have to stray from the recommended pressure and use what works better (Because of the smaller usable window the race tires have). BUT the average (and even above average) street/track riders are not looking to gain the extra .2 seconds through peak to peak and usually not looking to gain that extra 2/10 of average MPH.

It simply comes down to being particular. You really don't have to follow recommendations. It's your tire now and you can do what you wish with it. We (Dunlop) have spent lots of money testing the tires so you don't have to though. :)

I could go on for a little longer but my wife might miss me after a while. LOL I hope I answered your question Sean and please feel free to ask more if any come up.

I am planning on doing a basic tire seminar before the race season starts. Just looking for a good central venue to have it.

ask on askas

Later in the thread he suggests not varying from his recommendations by more than 2PSI, so I'm already at that limit (or slightly beyond).

I'm thinking that I may just not like these tires--for whatever unfathomable reason...more a "feel" than a solid reason...

[Ghost]

Pilot Power or Power Race?
The reason I ask is that these are two really different tires.

Hmm, I've actually run both, but the last were "Michelin Pilot Power Race"

https://www.bctmotorcycles.co.uk/catalogue/pics/tyres/large/pilotrace.jpg

Whereas the Pilot Powers looked like:

http://www.sporttour.com/images/img_static/PilotPowerTire.gif


2) Did you make any suspension or geometry changes when switching tires?
No, I didn't, was going to at the next track day since I figured that'd be best way to set it properly and get the help I'd need setting it up.

Especially if you were coming from the Power Race, you would almost HAVE to make a geometry change to the bike. The original Power Race tires were pretty pointy and the Q2 is pretty round by comparison.

--Yeah, they were definitely more of a triangular shape, the Q2s seem more like a blunter/rounder tire.


3) Are you sure that you're running the correct pressures?

I'm not an expert on Q2 pressures, I'll leave that to Oscar, but it sounds like you're trying the right things. Try reversing the ratio, making the front tire slightly harder than the rear tire.

--I'll see if that helps, I've never tried it.

4) How many miles are on your bike?
Just over 1k

(this is the twin to my other 2009 CBR600RR that I got last year, but which was sold to me as new after the dealership'd already sold it once and it had a loan on the VIN--so after a lot of back and forth with Honda--since the dealership was out of business--they took that one back and I got this one instead).

Damn. That sounds like an adventure.

--Yeah, it involved an "accidentally" swapped Dash to hide the mileage and a bunch of other BS...quite the nightmare to unravel, and I'm just glad that I finally got the bike I paid for in the end of it all...not fun.

5) When the wheels were re-installed after the tire change what did you do to make sure that they were properly aligned?
Didn't, I assumed the guys at the shop did that

Check this for sure! There are several good guides on the internet for checking wheel alignment on the bike. The rear wheel even being a degree or two off can really make a big difference in how the bike handles and feels on the road.

6) When was the last time the oil in your forks and shock was changed?
Bike's new, so it'd be the OEM fill

Good to know.


Honda bikes are notoriously undersprung in the front, I'm not saying that this is your problem since you liked the bike with different tires, but the front of Honda Sportbikes tend to have way too light of springs in them for the average american male rider.

Hope this is helpful.

I would start by checking wheel alignment.

Yeah, I've had CBRs since my 92 F2, and I have to agree, I'd hoped that the RR would be a different animal, but it's really not much different at the front than my previous CBRs.

Definitely helpful! Thanks!

I will see about the alignment and see if that helps, thanks again!

BUT...if it is just irreconcilable differences between the tires and I, any suggestions?

The Pilot Power Race and the (street) Pilot Powers are both "old" tire designs, that's why I went with the Q2s instead.

I suppose the new Power Ones/Power Pures are the closest to the old Race/Powers, but I've never ridden on them and their reviews aren't *amazing*...

[rybo]

I guess my feeling on this is that most of the tires that are available today are better than 99% of the riders that use them. Jason DiSalvo and Jason Pridmore both use Q2's on the bikes at their schools, so it's a perfectly adequate tire for street duty.

If you liked the Pilot Power before, why not use it again? Just because it's an "old" design doesn't mean that it's inadequate. I raced on slicks last year that are several generations old in terms of design, but still managed several top 5 season finishes, a win and a bunch of podiums on them. They just worked.

Another interesting tire in my mind is the BT003 RS (race /street) from Bridgestone. I think OUTLAWD on here had them for a while, maybe even did some racing on them?

s

[Ghost]

I guess my feeling on this is that most of the tires that are available today are better than 99% of the riders that use them. Jason DiSalvo and Jason Pridmore both use Q2's on the bikes at their schools, so it's a perfectly adequate tire for street duty.

If you liked the Pilot Power before, why not use it again? Just because it's an "old" design doesn't mean that it's inadequate. I raced on slicks last year that are several generations old in terms of design, but still managed several top 5 season finishes, a win and a bunch of podiums on them. They just worked.

Another interesting tire in my mind is the BT003 RS (race /street) from Bridgestone. I think OUTLAWD on here had them for a while, maybe even did some racing on them?

s

Oh, I'm by no means trying to say that I can or am out-riding the tires, I know that I'm not. It's just that for how/where/why I ride I'm not loving the Q2s. Mainly it's their tendency to be skittish when you don't expect them to be. But, beyond that, there's just something that feels "off" to me when I'm on them...can't explain it better than that...

I've run Bridgestones both on the track and the road before, (BT002s, I think, got them from Jenny a number of years back now), and I liked those as well.

I guess I just thought that the "new" tires would be inherently "better" tires. Like on my STI, the new Dunlop Direzza Star Specs are a better tire than my previous-generation tires were (in every category of "better").

But you're right, maybe I should just try to find what I'm used to and ride on those (or their newer equivalents) instead. Maybe I'm just too accustomed to riding what I used to ride and can't adjust to the new profile or compound or whatever intangible difference it is that I'm finding...

[rybo]

Oh, I'm by no means trying to say that I can or am out-riding the tires, I know that I'm not. It's just that for how/where/why I ride I'm not loving the Q2s. ...


I wasn't suggesting that, I was making an example of saying that the capabilites of the tires are really really good today, to a level where we (I certainly place myself in this category) might not need the "latest / greatest" tire to have a lot of fun.

I really would check the alignment first, the skittish behavior you describe could easily be caused by that.

Have fun riding!
s

[Ghost]

I wasn't suggesting that, I was making an example of saying that the capabilites of the tires are really really good today, to a level where we (I certainly place myself in this category) might not need the "latest / greatest" tire to have a lot of fun.

I really would check the alignment first, the skittish behavior you describe could easily be caused by that.

Have fun riding!
s

I'm reading about it now ;)

Thanks and thanks again!

[ian22]

The BT016s are good in the cold...they get hot too quick on a track day but are really quite sticky, they are cheap as well. Maybe you should consider going back to Michelins?

[Ghost]

The BT016s are good in the cold...they get hot too quick on a track day but are really quite sticky, they are cheap as well. Maybe you should consider going back to Michelins?

Yeah, was looking for a "cheaper" solution, which is why the Q2s seemed appealing, but the price might be worth it if it's not fun for me on the Dunlops.

[Scer]

I find them sluggish to warm up, I find them to be slippery in the "cold" of any 40-60 degree day,

Let's take step back and see what is going on here.

How long is it taking you to warm up the tires? (Have you done a track day with them yet?)

What is slippery about them? Are you pushing the front tire? Is the rear lighting up when you are trying to take off at a red light?

Lastly, have you tuned your bike for you yet? I know I might have said it before but I cannot stress the importance of having a bike tuned for you. If it's not, then might as well just start throwing your cash in the trash now.

ride on ridas

[fiveninerzero]

I guess my feeling on this is that most of the tires that are available today are better than 99% of the riders that use them.

100% agree with this statement. Most tyres available on the market are overkill for the street IMO. I still buy Pilot Powers for the street and these were introduced way back in 2006. No issues with warm-up (why do you really need to warm tyres up on the street anyways? How hard are you riding?), grip, wet performance, or life with proper pressures and suspension adjustment. You could probably close your eyes and pick a random set of tyres, given that the profiles are in OEM sizes and not really be able to tell the difference putting around town.

On the track is another story, however.

[OUTLAWD]

Another interesting tire in my mind is the BT003 RS (race /street) from Bridgestone. I think OUTLAWD on here had them for a while, maybe even did some racing on them?



this would be a correct statement. I loved the BT-003RS (street versions) on the street, couldn't get them to slip ever, on the gixxer or the triumph. I did run them a few rounds at the track, but found I could light up the rear at will (and I'm :turtle:) so I made the upgrade to DOT race tires for that added bit of confidence.

we do have a tire sticky, don't we?

[spideyrdr]

I'm racing MW Endurance on Q2's this year and have found them to be good tires. If you are feeling they aren't working for you, I don't think it's worth trying to talk you into loving them - you have to have confidence on the street and track otherwise you aren't going to have any fun.

That said, it seems like there could be an issue with your set / setup. You're reporting pressures down to HALF PSI's... are you sure your gauge is that accurate? Are you sure it's giving you proper readings?

Are you sure they are both balanced? A bad balance job can have a wicked effect on any vehicle.

Make sure your chain isn't too tight or too loose. A poorly adjusted chain can play mind games with you and make you feel like it's the tires.

Finally, check the date code of the tire to see if you maybe got a really old set of rubber. Tires can harden in storage and result in a crappy / vague feel.

[Matty]

Pirelli Corsa III's.

End Thread~

[Ghost]

Let's take step back and see what is going on here.

Sure, let me try to answer and get your expert opinion:

How long is it taking you to warm up the tires? (Have you done a track day with them yet?)

No track day yet, I was so unsure of them after a few canyon runs that I am/was debating pulling them off before I do a track day. Of course, at the track under track conditions they may be the best thing ever, the issues I've had were mostly in cool/cold weather (up to the low 70s) and only at canyon speeds (make of that what you will).

What is slippery about them? Are you pushing the front tire? Is the rear lighting up when you are trying to take off at a red light?

Yes to both. And it's been mostly at low/slow speeds when the weather's in the 40-60* range.

Remember, I'm only on a 600, and yet even under light throttle applications, such as rolling away from the stoplight right by my house into the right hand turn I've had the rear slip/catch/slip. I went back and checked the road, nothing visible. It was maybe 45-50* out.

The front washed coming into/up my driveway in similar weather, and again at low speed. My driveway is uphill and it's cement so there's a transition from the pavement of the road to it. I've lived here for 6yrs now, and I've always been careful going up or coming down due to the change, yet even on race take-offs and ex-trackday tires I've actually never had any issues even with snow on the grass--except on the Q2s.

As to at-speed issues, running the same roads I ran on the Michelins, I get a bit of rear wheel slip at hard lean angles under throttle and I get some front end wash under hard deceleration. On the same roads with any other tire I've ridden the same pace (or faster) without issue.

Again, these are *minor* and *small*, my ass isn't across the center line and I'm not leaving a black smear all across the road, but even these little slips and catches are unnerving since my old tires didn't have any issues.

Lastly, have you tuned your bike for you yet? I know I might have said it before but I cannot stress the importance of having a bike tuned for you. If it's not, then might as well just start throwing your cash in the trash now.

Tuned as in suspension setup? No, I was waiting to do that at the track since I can beg/borrow/steal help from those way more knowledgeable about it than I am, and on the track I can see how the setup works then tweak it since the track's way more consistent and controlled than a road would be.

[Ghost]

That said, it seems like there could be an issue with your set / setup. You're reporting pressures down to HALF PSI's... are you sure your gauge is that accurate? Are you sure it's giving you proper readings?

Are you sure they are both balanced? A bad balance job can have a wicked effect on any vehicle.

Make sure your chain isn't too tight or too loose. A poorly adjusted chain can play mind games with you and make you feel like it's the tires.

Finally, check the date code of the tire to see if you maybe got a really old set of rubber. Tires can harden in storage and result in a crappy / vague feel.

I used two gauges, one's digital (dunno the brand) the other's a Motion Pro Professional, as far as I can tell, they're both reading around the same (I use the MP first, then the digital since the digital reads to the 0.5lb).

They were both balanced, and the weights are still on them, I could take them to be rebalanced, but it's not a wobble issue.

I'll recheck the chain, I hadn't thought of that.

Where's the date code on the Q2s, and what's an acceptable age range?

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Scrub the Armor-All off your tires? :lol:

[spideyrdr]

I used two gauges, one's digital (dunno the brand) the other's a Motion Pro Professional, as far as I can tell, they're both reading around the same (I use the MP first, then the digital since the digital reads to the 0.5lb).

They were both balanced, and the weights are still on them, I could take them to be rebalanced, but it's not a wobble issue.

I'll recheck the chain, I hadn't thought of that.

Where's the date code on the Q2s, and what's an acceptable age range?

The date code for a tire will usually be stamped in an oval on the sidewall. I think it's a 3 or 4 digit code. the first 1 or 2 numbers have the week of manufacture and then the year of manufacture. I have a set in the basement stamped "5009" so they are from the 50'th week of 2009. F**k, Christmas tires. Those are always made by elves!

There is not really a hard and fast rule for age, I suppose. If they are really old and have a dubious storage record, I would wonder. If your supplier is good even an older tire would have been stored well, I think. But maybe check it out on the set you have and consider if they are old rubbers that maybe cooked in someone's shed for a couple years.

[DRKATO1]

Q2s have been in production for alittle over 2 years now so being out of date would not be a concern to me.
I've been using them for 2 years now and the only problem I have is when it is cold and they can take along time to warm up.
I'm even using a 180 on the rear on my 1000rr for track days and they grip better and have more feedback than any street tire i have ever used.

The best bang for the buck that I have found and I can ride a faster pace.

I would like to see a picture of your tires, maybe they are not even the Q2s I am using. Maybe a previous version.

I run 31 psi front and 28 rear on the track.

No tire can do it all, when warmed up they can almost keep up with a DOT race tire, almost is the key word, at half the price

[GuitarX]

Hey Ghost, I was a died-in-the-wool Michelin user until I rode my friend's bike with Metzeler M3s. They felt soooo good. They stuck like glue and the bike didn't move around mid-corner at all. It felt like I was riding on soft pencil erasers. He had been trying to turn me on to the M3s for a while and I was stubborn. After riding his bike, I'm now a believer and will be moving over to the M3s on all my bikes. Try 'em...you'll like 'em.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Did you try this thread of tire reviews?
http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38422

I specifically wrote about the M1 and M3 tires there. Being an all-season rider, a tires behavoir, feel, predictability, and grip at lower temps is more important to me than ultimate grip at the perfect temp and pressure. I tend to run somewhat elevated pressures in my M3's, though still 2 psi under max pressure, for mileage reasons, and don't seem to have any grip problems or problem warming up the tires. I may even go to the new M5's at the next tire change if the reviews are good.

[Ghost]

Cool, I'll check for the date code and see what it says, thanks!


Yeah, Bang-for-buck was what attracted me to them in the first place. Michelins are damn expensive, especially as I tend to go through them rather quickly. Scer's other thread suggested 34f and various rears, so I may got with 34/34 and see if that changes anything (though I'd done 33/33 in the past). If I get to the track with them still on, I'll try the 31/28--which seems odd to me, but worth a shot I guess.



Did you try this thread of tire reviews?
http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38422

I specifically wrote about the M1 and M3 tires there. Being an all-season rider, a tires behavoir, feel, predictability, and grip at lower temps is more important to me than ultimate grip at the perfect temp and pressure. I tend to run somewhat elevated pressures in my M3's, though still 2 psi under max pressure, for mileage reasons, and don't seem to have any grip problems or problem warming up the tires. I may even go to the new M5's at the next tire change if the reviews are good.

Hm, nope I missed that thread, let me read through it and see what everyone's riding on...

Yeah, I tend to ride (accidentally) into snow and sleet a lot more than I want to--and some on these boards were with me when we did Independence Pass in snow and freezing temps, or the sleet and freezing rain of Vail Pass...and a number of other fiasco-rides that seem to follow our little group.

So, yeah, cold-weather grip is pretty vital to me, and that's where the Q2s have been rather non-confidence-inspiring. In fact, I kinda want to ride them in the warm to see if they become the tire that everyone loves.

I'll check that thread and the Metzlers, along with the Corsas and a few others that've been mentioned here.

[VFR]

True believer that some tires do and others do not match a bikes characteristics (as well as riding styles). Qualifiers, liked them worked well with how I ride and how the bike distributes weights. M3's, hated it-way to slick for me (bike fell at minimal lean when new) and took forever to heat up. Front never felt planted. 2CT's, the Cats Ass-they feel so good from mount to replacement. They work well with both my bikes and feel inspire confidence. Stick with what feels good, I understand experimenting and the great thing about tires if you don't like them just trade with someone who does or sale them for close to cost. Everyone needs tires, especially you track attackers

[V4whore]

The Corsa and the M3 are essentially the same tire, different tread pattern. As Pirelli owns Metzeler there is much shared regarding R&D. Neither company believes that multi-compound technology is a good long-term solution to balancing performance and wear, they use steal bands set at different tensions throughout the tire instead. This provides quick warm-up and none of that odd/slick feeling when going from one compound to another on tires like the Q2. So if you like either the Corsa or the M3, you can basically base your purchasing decisions on price. M3's are dirt cheap right now (about $200 per set); it wasn't long ago that I was paying $350-$370 per set.

VFR's complaint of slow warm-up on the M3 is the first time I've heard this. I run them on a VFR and totally disagree, as do hundreds of reviews I've read on multiple websites. In fact, most people that I've spoken with, whom have had the willingness to experiment between road 2's, power 2's, and M3's, have gone the opposite direction of VFR's opinion and chosen the M3. I believe that he has misinterpreted neutrality for a lack of "front-end planting."

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

The Corsa and the M3 are essentially the same tire, different tread pattern. As Pirelli owns Metzeler there is much shared regarding R&D. Neither company believes that multi-compound technology is a good long-term solution to balancing performance and wear, they use steal bands set at different tensions throughout the tire instead. This provides quick warm-up and none of that odd/slick feeling when going from one compound to another on tires like the Q2. So if you like either the Corsa or the M3, you can basically base your purchasing decisions on price. M3's are dirt cheap right now (about $200 per set)(I paid $196 for mine recently); it wasn't long ago that I was paying $350-$370 per set.

VFR's complaint of slow warm-up on the M3 is the first time I've heard this. I run them on a VFR and totally disagree, as do hundreds of reviews I've read on multiple websites. In fact, most people that I've spoken with, whom have had the willingness to experiment between road 2's, power 2's, and M3's, have gone the opposite direction of VFR's opinion and chosen the M3. I believe that he has misinterpreted neutrality for a lack of "front-end planting."
Totally agreed. I've run them for many years, and the M1's before that, and never had an issue with cold temp performance, and all the articles said the same, which is why I went with them in the first place. In fact, the early versions of the Pilots were criticized roundly for their sketchy and scary cold performance vs. the M1's, hence my choice.

[Nick_Ninja]

Metzler's totally sucked a$$ on all my Kaws (over 250,000 miles and only two sets of the Elephant brand --- I wanted to give them a second chance -- WRONG). Michelin FTMFW!

[Ghost]

Metzler's totally sucked a$$ on all my Kaws (over 250,000 miles and only two sets of the Elephant brand --- I wanted to give them a second chance -- WRONG). Michelin FTMFW!

Lol, I'm beginning to think that after it's all said and done, I should just go back to where I started, eh?

I really want to like something else...especially for the money, but...maybe I should just go back to what I (apparently) prefer and know best...

Lame, I know...

Who has the best prices on Michelins (locally or online)?

I usually got them through the shop I worked at, but that's not happening now.

[Nick_Ninja]

^ TFOG

[Sarge]

Pirelli Corsa III's.

End Thread~

+1

I've got a set of Dragon Supercorsa's on my RSV. Stick like glue.

[V4whore]

Metzler's totally sucked a$$ on all my Kaws (over 250,000 miles and only two sets of the Elephant brand --- I wanted to give them a second chance -- WRONG). Michelin FTMFW!


Were they M3's? Since Nicks' write-up was a little on the vague side, I'll go ahead and bet Gary's left nut that they weren't, and that he's comparing apples to oranges.

Don't let a couple of internet comments scare you away from trying the M3 or the Corsa. Like I said, most everyone I know that have tried the M3 have happily made the Michelin line a distant memory; not that the Michelin's are bad tires. Several of the better riders on this forum seem to concur. You can't go wrong with the Pirelli either, but you'll spend a little more.

[Nick_Ninja]

^M3 FTL

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Jeff had a weird problem with his, something I've never heard of happening to any tire, ever, in almost 30 years besides this case.

I've run M1's and M3's (probably 3 or 4 sets) on my gixxer for 50k miles now, and have never been anything but totally happy with them. And, for reference, I ran older 18" Metzlers on my '86 Gixxer 1100 from new in '86 until I sold it in '04 and was always happy with 'em too.

As always, your results may vary, and it depends what and how you ride as to if you'll be happy with them or not. all I can say is that i heartily recommend them, and, as mentioned, the prices on 'em now are pretty awesome ($196 total/set is what I paid).

[VFR]

The Corsa and the M3 are essentially the same tire, different tread pattern. As Pirelli owns Metzeler there is much shared regarding R&D. Neither company believes that multi-compound technology is a good long-term solution to balancing performance and wear, they use steal bands set at different tensions throughout the tire instead. This provides quick warm-up and none of that odd/slick feeling when going from one compound to another on tires like the Q2. So if you like either the Corsa or the M3, you can basically base your purchasing decisions on price. M3's are dirt cheap right now (about $200 per set); it wasn't long ago that I was paying $350-$370 per set.

VFR's complaint of slow warm-up on the M3 is the first time I've heard this. I run them on a VFR and totally disagree, as do hundreds of reviews I've read on multiple websites. In fact, most people that I've spoken with, whom have had the willingness to experiment between road 2's, power 2's, and M3's, have gone the opposite direction of VFR's opinion and chosen the M3. I believe that he has misinterpreted neutrality for a lack of "front-end planting."

My experience alone....As stated, for me and my 06 SPRINT (not the VFR) they warmed up slow, for me and my bike!

[VFR]

Metzler's totally sucked a$$ on all my Kaws (over 250,000 miles and only two sets of the Elephant brand --- I wanted to give them a second chance -- WRONG). Michelin FTMFW!

Case and point, they don't work well for everyone and every bike. It's all about personal taste no matter what website and statistics say. Something as simple as a different set up on a bike can make a tire work or not work for you. As well as riding style.

[Ghost]

Thanks for the TFOG suggestion Nick.

Anyone have any input on the Michelin Power One 'A' tire? (In general, and/or compared to the old Pilot Power Race that I can't seem to find anymore)

The selector at http://www.michelinpowerone.com/en/index.html suggested them...

-OR-

Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa SP?
http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/motorcycle/sheet/diablo_supercorsa_sp.html?param0=road

[OUTLAWD]

not sure what specs you put in, but you can't expect the same confidence from street tires as race tires. but if you are saying that sports oriented street tires are holding you back on the street...something isn't adding up...

from the sounds of it you should be looking at Power Pures, Power Ones (street version), BT-003RS (street), or just straight up race DOTs (Michie, Conti, Dunlop, Pirelli, 'stones...any should suffice)

[CaptGoodvibes]

I rock the stock tires. When they wear out, I get a new bike.

[VFR]

I rock the stock tires. When they wear out, I get a new bike.

http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/0-rangefydaze/Brilliant.png

[Ghost]

not sure what specs you put in, but you can't expect the same confidence from street tires as race tires. but if you are saying that sports oriented street tires are holding you back on the street...something isn't adding up...

from the sounds of it you should be looking at Power Pures, Power Ones (street version), BT-003RS (street), or just straight up race DOTs (Michie, Conti, Dunlop, Pirelli, 'stones...any should suffice)

Not saying they're holding me back, per se, just saying I don't like how they feel and that (to me) they feel like they're always cold and that in the "cold" of 40-60 degree days they don't give me a lot of confidence or the same level of communication that my old Michelin Pilot Power Races (Soft/Med-Soft) used to give me on both the track and the street.

I'm not trying to say I'm "better" than the tires, I'm just saying there's some sort of disconnect between me & them and I'm not really sure there's a "fix" to the problem.

I suppose I may be unconsciously biased because I'm not used to dual-compound and/or street tires. Basically ever since I tried my hand at (unsuccessful) racing in the mid 90s I've run the softest DOT-race tires I could find on both the track (days) and the street. From 2001-2006 most of my riding was track days (90%) since I was really burned out on street riding and tired of various group shenanigans and just wanted to hit the track, go home, then go hit the track and not worry about tickets, cops, animals, blind corners, debris, etc. etc. So, when I did ride on the street it was on whatever tire I'd taken to the track last and despite being cooked and heat cycled, etc., they usually worked just fine for the (lower) canyon pace I was riding--even in cool/cold weather (including the time we rode through snow/sleet).

But, as I'm far less aggressive now, I thought the Q2s would be ideal, however, I'm just not liking them--for whatever intangible reason.

So, I went back to looking for my "old" tires, but they're not in production anymore, so I'm trying to see what "new" tire fits the bill--of being the softest/stickiest/most cold-tolerant or quick-warming tire I can find to ride on the track and/or in the canyons.

Being out of the motorcycle shop for 2+ years, I'm out of the loop on what tires are what, or what one I really want.

As I understand it, the street version Power One is similar to that of the (Old) Power Race medium, but with "faster warm-up temps in low temperatures, and humid/wet conditions".

The 'Street' version is a 2CT tire that's considered 80% street and 20% track, while the 'Competition' version is 90% track and 10% street.

Sadly, neither of those extremes are ideal for me, as I'd probably really like a tire that's right about 60% Track/40% Street.

http://www.superbiketoystore.com/power_one_competition.pdf
http://www.superbiketoystore.com/power_one_street.pdf

The Power One 'A' is listed as the softest compound in the Competition series, and they claim they're better in Wet/Humid/Cold conditions and warm up quicker than the Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa SC0/1/2/3, and the (Old?) Power Race Soft & Medium Soft (which is what I used to run on the track and then in the canyons).

The Power One Street is listed as Medium Compound, comparable--but better--in Wet/Humid/Cold conditions than the Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa SP, and the (Old) Power Race medium.

So, it's seems like either of these *might* fit the bill, but I've never ridden on either. Going off of which is softer I'm leaning towards the Power One A, as I don't care about tread life and just want the stickiest thing I can find (especially in Wet/Humid/Cold where the Q2s and I don't seem to get along). But, I don't know that I'll ever get them up to temp on the street, and if that's the case, then they may be no better (possibly worse) than the Street compounds (despite the latter being 'Medium').

And, since they're listed as 'Competition' I assume they're available from race vendors only, and the only Power Ones you'll find online or in local shops are the Power One (Street).

Ultimately, this is why I loathe/hate/despise buying tires--they're the most critical element on your bike since they're the *only* thing connecting you to the road, and yet you're forced to buy them completely blind with no idea of how they actually ride or how well they suit your style and needs...which it why I'm asking for advice from those who know better than me...

[OUTLAWD]

I'm not so up on the michelins, but i definately understand where you are coming from...if you don't have confidence in your tires...you won't enjoy riding...at least I don't anyway.

I am running the BT-003RS and haven't had any issues getting them up to temp, and they are noticeably softer than regular street tires, but when I have run my Dunlop race DOT's on the street, they never slip once I'm going for a bit, but I know I am not getting them up to proper operating temp, so I'm always a bit gun shy.

I don't know what compounds the local Michelin racers run, but you might look into picking up a set of take-offs at first just to see how you like them before dropping the money on a new set.

[Ghost]

I'm not so up on the michelins, but i definately understand where you are coming from...if you don't have confidence in your tires...you won't enjoy riding...at least I don't anyway.

Yeah, and that's my major issue--lately I'm avoiding riding simply because I'm not loving the tires...


I am running the BT-003RS and haven't had any issues getting them up to temp, and they are noticeably softer than regular street tires, but when I have run my Dunlop race DOT's on the street, they never slip once I'm going for a bit, but I know I am not getting them up to proper operating temp, so I'm always a bit gun shy.

Yeah, I had some (older) BTs, and I liked them a lot actually, so I am open to the 003RSes as well as the Michelins.

Again, I think a nice 50/50 Race/Street tire would be prefect--if it existed. I was gun shy on my Michelin DOT-races since I knew they were never up to track temps, but still they never gave me an issue...



I don't know what compounds the local Michelin racers run, but you might look into picking up a set of take-offs at first just to see how you like them before dropping the money on a new set.

That's actually a good idea, I think at least one guy from my old shop runs Michelins, I'll swing by and see what he's running and if I can get a set of takeoffs...Or maybe I'll just bite the bullet and get the 003s or the Power Ones and get them on so I can get riding...hopefully with confidence...

[Foolds]

What about the Power pilot Pures? they are supposed to be a super aggressive street/track tire

[Ghost]

What about the Power pilot Pures? they are supposed to be a super aggressive street/track tire



I was thinking the Ones were "better" than the Pures? No?


EDIT:

Think this confirms that the Ones are the more aggressive/track-oriented tire (though, again, I probably want 50/50 not 15%/85% or 30%/70%)

http://www.michelinmotorcycle.com/img/sport_comparo_lg.jpg

[Ghost]

Jim/TFOG hooked me up with a set of Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa SPs, haven't really pushed them yet, and haven't gotten to the track yet, but so far, so very good--I'm loving them.

They don't squirm like the Q2s, they have great feedback and the only 'negative' (which really isn't) is that the sidewalls feel very stiff over broken pavement/potholes.

I'll post the Q2s up for sale if my friend doesn't buy them, and I'll post up more impressions once I get these scrubbed in and then on the track...

But, so far, I'm happy...

[Vellos]

If Q2s were squirmy they wouldn't be popular. Something was wrong with your bike or tire installation. Good luck on them Supercorasas.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

If Q2s were squirmy they wouldn't be popular. Something was wrong with your bike or tire installation. Good luck on them Supercorasas.
Different riders have different preferences. If the Q2's have a pretty triangulated profile, I might not like them either. I personally prefer the more rounded profiles of the M3's, and am more than willing to sacrifice a tiny bit of ultimate grip while cornering for a more even transition from straight up to full lean. Some people LIKE a tire that "falls into" corners more. I don't, and maybe he doesn't either and that's part of what he's feeling. Hopefully there is nothing wrong with his bike, and I can't imagine an "installation" issue being any sort of problem like he's describing.

[Mother Goose]

Different riders have different preferences. If the Q2's have a pretty triangulated profile, I might not like them either. I personally prefer the more rounded profiles of the M3's, and am more than willing to sacrifice a tiny bit of ultimate grip while cornering for a more even transition from straight up to full lean. Some people LIKE a tire that "falls into" corners more. I don't, and maybe he doesn't either and that's part of what he's feeling. Hopefully there is nothing wrong with his bike, and I can't imagine an "installation" issue being any sort of problem like he's describing.
That's one of the things I LOVE about these tires. Effortless turn in. The Michelins made me feel like I had to work too much to get it to turn.

[cptschlongenheimer]

^:yes:
I only have experience on the OEM's and the Q2's but the way the bike falls right through the turn-in with the dunlops feels so much more natural than on the OEM's.

[Vellos]

Squirmy isn't a good quality in a tire, hence why I'd suggest that it isn't the tire itself.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Squirmy isn't a good quality in a tire, hence why I'd suggest that it isn't the tire itself.
Every persons definition of "squirmy" is different. Is what's happening the chassis flexing? Is the tire carcass moving around too much relative to the contact patch? Does the contact patch have too much slip angle (sliding)? Or is it when you start to lean it "falls" into corners faster than you like/are used to and you're going thru a cycle of lean/unlead to try and get the trajectory you want? All of those could be construed as "squirmy", and some have nothing to do with the tires per se, but rider or chassis.

Me, I don't mind expending more effort (I'm heavy enough and strong enough for it not to be an issue) to get stable turn-in at all angles on the rounder profile. I feel funny when the bike "falls in" too much.

[dragos13]

A lot of "tire" characteristic could also be bike geometry, tire age, air pressure, etc. Things that don't reflect that actual tire brand itself.

[Racz]

I just put a set of Q2's on my bike and i love them.

[AOK303]

Y
Jim/TFOG hooked me up with a set of Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa SPs, haven't really pushed them yet, and haven't gotten to the track yet, but so far, so very good--I'm loving them....

That's what came stock on my bike and I love them about to order new set

[KX450Racer]

Dont order 'em - we still have sets starting at $199.95 and mounting for $20 a wheel.

[Ghost]

A lot of "tire" characteristic could also be bike geometry, tire age, air pressure, etc. Things that don't reflect that actual tire brand itself.

True, but here the geometry was unchanged from the OEMs to my brief run on the Q2s to the Supercorsa SPs, and only the Q2s ever exhibited issues.


Y

That's what came stock on my bike and I love them about to order new set

I can see why they're OEM on the 675 and Ducatis, they're fantastic. Can't wait to get them on the track and see what they can really do.