The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

[GixxerCarrie]

First, I hope no one takes offense to the fact that I am going to put this thread out here. It seems to soon. But Its truly bothering me.
I put this under technique, due to the fact that many of us ride the route, not only because we love it, but, there have been many fatalities in the past couple of years. We have lost many good peeps. I want to take a step back to look at the route for tips and advice.
Those who haven’t been on it, it’s a great ride. Wide sweeping curves, beautiful views.
This thread is for sharing knowledge, experience, and passing on to others.
I want opinions from experienced riders on Technique and Experience on this route. I think we all could learn from some of your experiences. On my mind is many crashes I have stopped at, after the fact usually you can see marked pieces on the road, or it’s been pointed out to me. I look in every direction, and, think where did it go wrong? Usually it’s in a non-technical piece of this route. I’ve had ass pucker moments at the last piece of the route due to gravel...I've also gained great experience as you can gain alot of speed on this route and really lean your bike.
Is it target fixation? Is it riding beyond your abilities? Is it not knowing the route ahead of time? Is it certain pieces of the route? What is it that riders need to know about this canyon in general? What advice can you give us? I'm asking for experienced riders as I want people who have done this route many times and can tell us some of their experiences, knowledge they can share with us~Sometimes its just our time. But, if this gives one of us a piece of advice thats looming as we ride this route, than it has served its purpose
Thanks
Carrie

[stubbicatt]

Problem is, IMO, that while the route remains constant, the road constantly changes. This is due to either unpredictable traffic or debris etc. on the road... or even potholes.

I almost got taken out by a whopping big motorcoach coming south when I was northbound in the last of the 2 turns in the "corkscrew" section about 5 or 6 miles south of Deckers. Dude was across the center line, and I was near the edge of the tires uncomfortably close to the center line. That was target fixation.

Other than unpredictable traffic, the condition of the road changes due to gravel etc. I have spoken with residents of that piece of road who really hate sportbikes tearing it up, some have intimated that they know people who intentionally spread gravel along the route. A few years back due to heavy rains, the road in sections was inundated by dirt and gravel etc washed down from the hillsides.

(This was illuminating).

[PunyJuney]

I have spoken with residents of that piece of road who really hate sportbikes tearing it up

the numerous oil slicks in the apex of a few corners out there is no accident, all you can do is watch for it

[spdu4ia]

I've only ridden the route twice but the road tends to "intice" riders over there limits. It tried to bite me on that first decreasing radius right hander and so after that I took it at a more reasonable pace. I got lucky that it scared me before I did anything stupid. The road conditions are definetly "variable" and deserve some respect.

[Matty]

Deckers is just like any other canyon road. You have animals that can jump out at anytime, you have idiotic cagers and other riders crossing double yellow lines, gravel and debris in turns, etc... And If you ride outside your ability the chances are you're going down.

Horsepower Hill takes it up a notch cause you can hit triple digit speeds no problem. And at those speeds any lil thing can throw you.

My advice, do you!!! If you feel confident to ride Deckers fast go for it. If you don't, well than don't.

Also Ride, Ride, And Ride some more. The more miles you get under your seat the more prepared you'll be for the unexpected.

[MetaLord 9]

I want opinions from experienced riders on Technique and Experience on this route.
Don't crash.

[salsashark]

Matty summed up exactly how I feel.

126 is no different than any other canyon road.

Ride within your limits, expect the unexpected and be careful.

If you're not comfortable with the unknown conditions of a public road but you still want to push yourself and your equipment, get your ass on a track.

[Bueller]

As any who have ridden with me know, I don't like that ride very much at all. To me it involves excessively stupid speeds and except for a couple of areas it is not very technical. IMO it is a good winter ride because it is usually open late and early in the season. It can also be a good beginner route as long as the speeds are kept reasonable. When I do end up doing it I always come back 67 because I can't stand the thought of going back the same way and 67 is tight and technical and much more fun, I don't mind the dirt, it's only a few miles.

[MetaLord 9]

Agreed with what's above.

it's a somewhat narrow road as you get closer and closer to 285 and you're headed in that direction, you're going from triple digit sweepers to tight, twisty corners that require a much lower speed.

Things that I've found that help on this road (but that should be remembered on any road):
- DON'T target fixate. there's too much going on on that road to get stuck staring at the bike in front of you, the gravel on the center line, or tar snake ahead of you. See it, adjust, keep scanning ahead
- Ride to your own abilities. I've seen too many people get big balls on that road, especially if they get over confident in the wide sweepers. I've also seen people follow WAY too closely, probably because they're already in over their heads and they need someone to watch or they're gonna get screwed.
- If you're not intimately familiar with the road, ride conservatively. It's not just a challenge for bikes, but also for cars, and not all of them do a good job. Give 'em a wide berth and expect a few to go wide or tight across the double yellow.

[OUTLAWD]

Deckers is just like any other canyon road. You have animals that can jump out at anytime, you have idiotic cagers and other riders crossing double yellow lines, gravel and debris in turns, etc... And If you ride outside your ability the chances are you're going down.



werd



As any who have ridden with me know, I don't like that ride very much at all. To me it involves excessively stupid speeds and except for a couple of areas it is not very technical.

I agree

[UglyDogRacing]

What is this Deckers Horsepower Hill road you speak of?

[Concabar]

I have been up in down Deckers a lot. I have been a victim to gravel on the north side of Deckers. I have also seen my fair share of people go down up there. Some where due to gravel/target fixation, inexperience rider, riding above ability, and rider coming into my friend's lane.

As it normally goes with any other road, if you never been down it, you shouldn't take it as fast as you possible can. Get familiar with the road first or ride behind someone that has been up there before. As the others said, sometimes it is unpreventable (i.e. gravel and tar snakes). There is sign posted for the tar snakes and you can see them, so if you are inexperience and your bombing through that area and go down, it is your own fault. Once you get more familiar with the road, the gravel is normally always in the same places, every now and again you may find it in other areas.

[GixxerCarrie]

Agreed with what's above.

it's a somewhat narrow road as you get closer and closer to 285 and you're headed in that direction, you're going from triple digit sweepers to tight, twisty corners that require a much lower speed.

Things that I've found that help on this road (but that should be remembered on any road):
- DON'T target fixate. there's too much going on on that road to get stuck staring at the bike in front of you, the gravel on the center line, or tar snake ahead of you. See it, adjust, keep scanning ahead
- Ride to your own abilities. I've seen too many people get big balls on that road, especially if they get over confident in the wide sweepers. I've also seen people follow WAY too closely, probably because they're already in over their heads and they need someone to watch or they're gonna get screwed.
- If you're not intimately familiar with the road, ride conservatively. It's not just a challenge for bikes, but also for cars, and not all of them do a good job. Give 'em a wide berth and expect a few to go wide or tight across the double yellow.

^^^This is the sort of information I was looking for. New riders, Mid-Range, everyone can gain from our expierences. Will it always work no. I knew excessive speed would be brought up..most of us have been there done that. It is very easy to think this route is a piece of cake, and move beyond your abilities. But isn't part of our responsibility to educate based on our knowledge?

[GixxerCarrie]

What is this Deckers Horsepower Hill road you speak of?

You of all people have ridden this route 1000 times. Know its ins and outs. How many accidents have you ridden up on? Many. Your thoughts?

[Bueller]

But isn't part of our responsibility to educate based on our knowledge?

How many times can you say "ride within your limits"? It just goes right over everyone's head that needs to be listening. I do not feel a responsibility to teach anyone anything. If they solicit advise I will be forthcoming because at that point they are open to learning. Otherwise it is like :banghead:

[salsashark]

How many times can you say "ride within your limits"? It just goes right over everyone's head that needs to be listening. I do not feel a responsibility to teach anyone anything. If they solicit advise I will be forthcoming because at that point they are open to learning. Otherwise it is like :banghead:

+10000

I've been riding for 16 years now. Not as long as some on the board, much longer then others. With every year that passes, I find myself leaning more and more to the Bueller school of thought.

[madvlad]

Yea that road though a bit fun but damn treacherous for sure. I've had my fair amount of close calls on that road (specially in that long straight away in the triple digits) and just overall I don't enjoy going that fast anymore. I mean just gotta ask yourself is it worth it haulin ass all throughout that road and increase your chances of dying or just enjoy the views, nature and most importantly the ride... plus also there with bueller and metalord about it not a very technical road at all plus it pushes newbs to limits they can't even grasp until they're either down or had a close call.

[GixxerCarrie]

How many times can you say "ride within your limits"? It just goes right over everyone's head that needs to be listening. I do not feel a responsibility to teach anyone anything. If they solicit advise I will be forthcoming because at that point they are open to learning. Otherwise it is like :banghead:
Very true Dave...

[UglyDogRacing]

You of all people have ridden this route 1000 times. Know its ins and outs. How many accidents have you ridden up on? Many. Your thoughts?

My thoughts? I don't think I've ridden it 1000 times but I probably have more miles on it and have gone faster on it than most. And yes I have seen dozens of accidents including a few fatalities like the one less than 2 years ago.
It's a fun scenic road with alot of different features. Is it any more dangerous than riding up deercreek, bearcreek, golden gate, coal creak, boulder canyon,etc? No. Those tight canyons with blind corners and decreasing radius turns are even more dangerous. I have never seen or had issue with oils slick in turns out there, either. Generally the road conditions are better than alot of other roads frequented by motorcyclists. Chip seal? rocks in the road? oil? animals? They are all normal hazards with riding here in Colorado. You should be anticipating these things. The stretch between Buffalo Creek and Deckers does entice a rider to increase their speed as stated prevously. But does that mean the road is more dangerous? I don't believe so.
I don't ride much down there anymore, maybe a few times a season in contrast to a few times a week 10-12 years ago. And when I do I usually go alone now (because Bueller doesnt like that road) What I see more of lately is riders that are pushing their limits and do not have the skills to do so. I don't know the details of this week's incident, but the young lady that passed away in Oct '09 that I came upon was riding way up above her limit as were the other 4 riders that crashed. You're responsible for your own safety and riding within your limits. If you can't handle that, maybe you shouldn't be riding at all. But it's not the road's fault.

[~Barn~]

Well said, Jim.

[MetaLord 9]

Unfortunately, you can't make people care about riding better, or make them want to be better riders. Ultimately it's up to the rider to be responsible for their own ass. Those that are, usually get to ride another season. Those that aren't get to sell a parts bike.

[MetaLord 9]

What I see more of lately is riders that are pushing their limits and do not have the skills to do so.
Hasn't this always been the case though? The only difference is that modern bikes allow people to get up above their abilities faster than most of the older bikes.

[UglyDogRacing]

Hasn't this always been the case though? The only difference is that modern bikes allow people to get up above their abilities faster than most of the older bikes.

As far as the road in question, this has not alway been the case. 10 years ago everyone i came upon was in full leathers and seemed to be fairly competent with their riding. Nowadays there are more riders frequenting it wearing less gear and trying to ride above their ability.

[~Barn~]

Modern bikes somehow allowing a rider to break their limits "faster" than say a bike of 10 years ago, is really a just a matter of seconds. It's a nominal thing, IMO.

If anything, I think modern bikes serve more to allow unaccomplished riders to seemingly extend their limits. Often times to their detriment. Things like: ABS, linked-brake systems, traction control, back torque limiting clutches, etc, etc....

It's a bit of a double-edge sword, because that which can be a great aid to an experienced rider, can in turn provide a potentially false (or at least exaggerated) sense of competency, that can come back to eventually harm the rider, if they don't keep their true riding abilities in context. I hesitate to call them safer developments by default, because if misused/misunderstood, they can create a less demanding rider as a by-product. Flipside: If given to an already demanding rider, they can provide a true safety element.

I believe the word of the day (for this thread at least), is complacency.

[UglyDogRacing]

I believe the word of the day (for this thread at least), is complacency.


And that is the problem: you can't become complacent when riding. Once you stop anticipating unexpected situations, you open the door for unfortunate consequences.

[Bueller]

As far as the road in question, this has not alway been the case. 10 years ago everyone i came upon was in full leathers and seemed to be fairly competent with their riding. Nowadays there are more riders frequenting it wearing less gear and trying to ride above their ability.

Way more new riders every year, and it keeps growing with the popularity of motorcycles. Just look at the influx of nOObs every year on this board. They show up with new and new to them bikes, eventually crashing them or loosing interest and disappearing back into the wood work.
The one thing to remember though, is that at times fully geared experienced riders will also make a mistake that can be very costly, so dismissing all the crashes to inexperience and lack of appropriate protective gear would be a mistake.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Except for HP Hill and the sweepers there that encourage big speed, I can't see that road being any more dangerous and is certainly less technical than others here.

IS this road truly more dangerous as measured by a higher accident rate per motorcycle miles traveled, or is it just perception? Or is it just more popular and closer to 2 major metro areas, and since there's more riders on it there's more chances for error? For instance, I consider Stove Prarie far more technical between the Poudre and Rist Canyon, but there's not much traffic on it (due to it's remoteness) and so I'm sure a lot fewer accidents.

I've heard rumors of sadistic assholes dumping sand and oil etc. on certain roads (like Stove Prarie etc.), and I would hate to think that that's more than an extremely rare occurrance. And those caught doing that should be shown absolutely no mercy.

[~Barn~]

:spit:

What'up Frank... I always get a chuckle how most all of your posts (regardless of topic, discussion, issue, theme, or purpose)... always seem to end with a party or person, being "shown no mercy" in some fashion.

Happy Friday Buddy. Sweep the leg! :D

[UglyDogRacing]

Way more new riders every year, and it keeps growing with the popularity of motorcycles. Just look at the influx of nOObs every year on this board. They show up with new and new to them bikes, eventually crashing them or loosing interest and disappearing back into the wood work.
The one thing to remember though, is that at times fully geared experienced riders will also make a mistake that can be very costly, so dismissing all the crashes to inexperience and lack of appropriate protective gear would be a mistake.

We all make errors in judgement. I've had my close calls out there and I'm sure you have too. And there are plenty of inexperienced noobs without appropriate gear that come home in one piece every week. Just stating that the numbers are greater now which is increasing the frequency for accidents.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

:spit:

What'up Frank... I always get a chuckle how most all of your posts (regardless of topic, discussion, issue, theme, or purpose)... always seem to end with a party or person, being "shown no mercy" in some fashion.

Happy Friday Buddy. Sweep the leg! :D
Hah! No quarter asked, no quarter given! :) Happy 4th of July weekend to you too bro! Yeah, I just would hate to think that some dickhead with a grudge against bikers would be directly, methodically, and maliciously responsible for hurting or killing anyone that rides just because they're "annoyed" with riders.

[Snowman]

We are riding vehicles that are easily twice the horsepower to weight ratio with half the contact points the size of half dollars to keep us on the road. To control this rolling mass requires a much higher level of physical ability compared to a normal car.

The equipment we ride has also advanced ten fold over the bikes I started out on the 80’s, both in power and performance. So I agree it is getting easier to become comfortable with the bike. The line we ride has always been a very fine one. But the problem I see with the higher end sport bikes is as the performance aspect increases this line becomes finer.

Complacency is a big factor. Get too comfortable with what you are doing and sure enough you will cross that line. I think allot of the newer riders are stepping on to machines that we old timers could only dream about back in the day, not understanding the level we have reached and the respect for these machines you must have.

I think it is up to us who have ridden for a while to try and get that across to the newer riders just what they are getting into.

[Bueller]

We all make errors in judgement. I've had my close calls out there and I'm sure you have too.

This is the truth, luckily I have ridden away from mine.

[Devaclis]

lol I got injured on HPH at a relatively low speed (67 mph) on a dual sport with off road tires.

My suggestion - Check your gear, check your bike, make sure everything is up to par for the kind of riding you are going to be doing. Mechanical failure is normally tougher to think through than a mental error is. Maintain yo shit son!!

Oh, you may also want to slow down a bit and enjoy the beautiful scenery up there. You are not being scouted for a MotoGP alternate spot.

[MetaLord 9]

Complacency is a big factor. Get too comfortable with what you are doing and sure enough you will cross that line. I think allot of the newer riders are stepping on to machines that we old timers could only dream about back in the day, not understanding the level we have reached and the respect for these machines you must have.
I feel like these are two of the main points: Complacency for older/experienced riders, and respect for the machine your own abilities for younger/newer ones.

Younger/newer riders see more experienced riders (like almost everyone in this thread, myself excluded) make it look easy and get the "I can do that" syndrome, especially when newer machines offer straight line speeds that make catching up easier.

There's also the ego factor for a lot of riders both experienced & green. the green riders think "how hard can this be, I've got this" and don't properly grasp their own capabilities, the capabilities of the bike, and the constantly changing conditions of the road.

Experienced riders have to fight the "I've done this road a million times before and could ride it in my sleep" problem. Or the riders that are used to pushing it on the track get back on the street and lower their guard because they're not pushing as hard as they are on the track

[UglyDogRacing]

I think it is up to us who have ridden for a while to try and get that across to the newer riders just what they are getting into.

I don't see that happening with the current generation. They already know everything. :lol:

[Nick_Ninja]

Deckers sucks. :down:

[UglyDogRacing]

Or the riders that are used to pushing it on the track get back on the street and lower their guard because they're not pushing as hard as they are on the track

I disagree with this statement. Racers and/or track riders who continue to ride street generally scale it back and are more aware of the hazards that they would not normally encounter while riding their limit on a track.

[UglyDogRacing]

Deckers sucks. :down:

That's an encouraging response. ;)

[Nick_Ninja]

That's an encouraging response. ;)

Any place that has a geographic 'feature' called Horsepower Hill wreaks of being a squid magnet --- there appears to be not much difference between the label Horsepower Hill and The Corkscrew in those feeble minds. :roll:

[MetaLord 9]

Any place that has a geographic 'feature' called Horsepower Hill wreaks of being a squid magnet --- there appears to be not much difference between the label Horsepower Hill and The Corkscrew in those feeble minds. :roll:
I dunno, I haven't heard of a single gas station downtown with either of those features, but they sure are hip deep in squids...

[Matrix]

I disagree with this statement. Racers and/or track riders who continue to ride street generally scale it back and are more aware of the hazards that they would not normally encounter while riding their limit on a track.

+1. Once I started riding on the track I reeeeally slowed down on the street.

[dirkterrell]

Some very good advice posted above. In case anyone cares, here are my thoughts on street riding in general not just this particular road. Riders need to ask themselves why they are riding. If it's to see how fast you can go, to see if you can get a knee down, impress others, etc. then you unequivocally need to be doing that on the track. There are simply too many unknowns on the street to be pushing that hard. No ride is so good that it's worth being your last.

If your goal is to enjoy riding for yourself, improve your skills and reduce the dangers as much as you can, then you have the right mentality for street riding. I have been riding on the street since 1983 and I am still learning. (e.g. a couple of days ago I got some practice dealing with 40-50 mph gusting crosswinds in rain at interstate highway speeds and learned to scan the grass along the side of the road to see where the gusts were happening.)

It is insufficient to tell someone to ride within their limits when they probably do not know what their limits are. Again, the track is the safest place to explore those limits and extend them. I see people spend all sorts of money on farkles for their bikes and nothing on educating themselves. Today's street machines can do pretty amazing things if you know how to ride them. You can learn from experience and you can also learn from people who are higher up the performance curve than you. Solicit input from experienced riders and learn from them. Take classes like the Jason Pridmore Star School (http://www.starmotorcycle.com/). They will be at HPR on Aug 15-16. It is not a racing school. It is a riding school and I guarantee that you will learn a lot from them no matter what level you are at. The difference between a situation being a pucker moment or a dead rider is very often the rider's skill in making the bike do what is necessary to escape the danger. Forget the aftermarket exhaust. Spend your money on improving your skills.

Since we're talking about a road where people are tempted to hit high speeds, it's good to understand how things change with increasing speed. The main one is that your ability to stop scales as the square of your speed. Your stopping distance at 100 mph is at least four times what it is at 50 mph. But you also have to consider what I call "thinking time" and reaction time. Thinking time is the time it takes you to see a situation and understand that you need to do something about. Then you have the reaction time to make the necessary inputs to the bike. The more experienced you are, the shorter the thinking time will probably be, maybe a second or better. For a beginner, it might be two seconds or more. An average reaction time is about 0.7 seconds. 50 mph is about 73 feet per second. If the reaction plus thinking time is 2.7 seconds, you travel nearly 200 feet before the bike can even do anything. At 100 mph, it's nearly 400 feet. For the experienced rider, it would be 124 feet at 50 mph and 250 feet at 100 mph. Add onto these, the breaking distances. The NHTSA did some braking tests (http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedings/a-green-comparisonofstoppingdistance.pdf) and a VFR like mine took about 232 feet to come to a stop from 80 mph on dry pavement. Scale that up to 100 mph and it would be about 362 feet. Scaling down to 50 mph, it would be 91 feet. So if I took 1.7 secs to see and react to a situation at 50 mph, it would take 124 feet (think&react) + 91 feet (brake) = 215 feet or about 3/4 the length of a football field. At 100 mph it would be 250 feet + 362 feet = 612 feet, or over two football fields. Visualize that. That's the minimum distance for an experienced rider. Can you see that far around the triple digit sweeper you are in, realizing that leaned over, your braking distance will have to be even further? These are the kinds of things you need to understand if you are going to be doing triple digit speeds.

We can't make the risk of riding a motorcycle zero. But we can greatly the reduce the risks. Knowledge, experience, and the right frame of mind can make riding much safer and much more enjoyable. Riding is a great thing, and something I can't imagine not being able to do, but it is not worth dying. Do everything you can to reduce the risks and the odds are that you will enjoy many years of one of the great pleasures in life.

Dirk

[Nick_Ninja]

:up:

[bornwildnfree]

Sometimes it's just your time. We can't outrun the Reaper. No matter how good you are, there is always more to learn and even the tiniest bit of inattention or gravel or squirrel or whatever can cost us our lives. Even those masters like the MotoGP guys still make mistakes although the consequences aren't usually as severe. We ride machines that have improved vastly over the years, but rider skill hasn't necessarily kept up. All you can do is be prepared. All roads can be deadly given the right kind of conditions.

@dirkterrell that's really good info and really something to think about.

[MetaLord 9]

Sometimes it's just your time. We can't outrun the Reaper.
Thanks for lightening the mood...

[salsashark]

Thanks for lightening the mood...

Anybody else have Blue Oyster Cult (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdXfkkyI1nQ) stuck in their heads now?

[UglyDogRacing]

Sometimes it's just your time. We can't outrun the Reaper.


Sorry I don't accept statements like that. I would prefer to do everything possible to extend my time in this world.

[Nick_Ninja]

Anybody else have Blue Oyster Cult (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdXfkkyI1nQ) stuck in their heads now?

TOMORROW!

Saturday, July 2at 8:30pm
Cheap Trick with Blue Oyster Cult

http://www.greeleystampede.org/sites/default/files/image/2011%20concerts/Blue%20Oyster%20Cult.jpg

http://www.greeleystampede.org/sites/default/files/image/2011%20concerts/Cheap%20Trick.jpg

http://www.greeleystampede.org/sites/all/themes/greeleystampede2011/images/logo.png

http://www.greeleystampede.org/events/main-concerts

[ian22]

+1 dirkterrell

I did a bunch of really, really stupid stuff in my early 20s. I'm incredibly fortunate to have not hurt myself during that time of my life. What I've realized today is that what I used to do in the canyons is foolish...and will always be. The track is where its at! 90 bucks for a half day at HPR is a bargain, and if you have a moment...you won't be staring down the front grill of an explorer or heading for a telephone poll or the edge of a cliff (after the guardrail). There are too many people in cars texting or doing lord knows what (not paying attention) and too many spots of sand or gravel on the road for me to do that stuff anymore.

[Ghost]

I haven't ridden Deckers this year or last, and when I did prior to that it was in my typically small, close group of friends that I tend to ride with. Most are experienced, most have at least track if not race experience, and we all kinda run the same pace.

I think the "thing" with Deckers is that unlike a lot of tight canyon runs that are super twisty, technical, and have rock walls or sheer drops around every bend, Deckers seems more forgiving and open.

I think, in a sense, it lulls people into riding over their limits since it doesn't seem to be as "difficult" as most other favorite bike roads.

I think it also suckers experienced riders into thinking "this is easy" so they pay less attention than they should.

Whenever newer riders are running the tighter canyons, and they're probably struggling to keep up with the rapid transitions and so they slow down.

Whenever experienced riders are running those same tight sections, they know it's dangerous and there can be cars and elk and sand and whatever else around the next (blind) corner so they pay more attention and keep themselves in check (somewhat).

On Deckers, everyone comes railing into the sweepers thinking they're Valentino and the "track" is wide open and they overcook their entry, eat up any margin of error, and crash...

When I went on a group ride to Deckers a few years ago I kept seeing the same behavior, people riding way too fast for their experience/skill level, getting into corners too deep/too far, nearly going off the road (on into the oncoming lanes), they'd realize their mistake, back off...and then forget and ramp it back up and do it all over again...eventually, if that's the pace/way they're riding, there's only one possible outcome and it's not pretty...

As to oil in the corners, I've seen plenty of sand/gravel in some, and I have seen a few shiny slicks, but I couldn't tell you if they were intentionally there or the result of a diesel leak, runoff, car crash, whatever.

And, overall, I'm not saying I'm an expert on Deckers, or on anything else, just passing along my rather general impressions and observations...

[UglyDogRacing]

Some footage from Deckers four years ago this weekend - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdt5rdKyuiw

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

First off, in awe of Dirk's post full of great data (as usual).:bow: Great info for those willing and capable of fully realizing the implications of all he said.



Modern bikes somehow allowing a rider to break their limits "faster" than say a bike of 10 years ago, is really a just a matter of seconds. It's a nominal thing, IMO.

If anything, I think modern bikes serve more to allow unaccomplished riders to seemingly extend their limits. Often times to their detriment. Things like: ABS, linked-brake systems, traction control, back torque limiting clutches, etc, etc....

It's a bit of a double-edge sword, because that which can be a great aid to an experienced rider, can in turn provide a potentially false (or at least exaggerated) sense of competency, that can come back to eventually harm the rider, if they don't keep their true riding abilities in context. I hesitate to call them safer developments by default, because if misused/misunderstood, they can create a less demanding rider as a by-product. Flipside: If given to an already demanding rider, they can provide a true safety element.

I believe the word of the day (for this thread at least), is complacency.
I'm going to further expand on Barn's post a little, and also give nod to the post from "The Abdominal Snowman". :) Having also starting riding street many more years ago than I usually care to admit (serious FOG status - ok, '82), I can also vouch for the fact that today's bikes are quantum leaps forward in every performance aspect except comfort. The acceleration is a lot better, but the advances in handling, braking, stability, and tires are far more extreme. What I think this does, is mask the sensation of speed, to fool your internal "speedo" because of the effortless ease with which the bikes achieve this speed and react to it. In the old days, yeah, there were some fast bikes (the Z1, the CBR series, the GS1100 series, the later GPZ's and VFR's, etc.), but on those bikes, you really felt every mph. The bike would be moving around a little on you, there was always this feeling of instability in your seat-of-the-pants sensors, and you really would only open it up on the straights, because you knew that even though you had "great" brakes (for the day), you knew you needed more distance to slow down, and it was much heavier and harder to turn, and even less stable once in a turn. Today's bikes are so much more stable, it leads people into bigger speed on the straights (even easier because of the more hp/less weight factor), and that stability also leads them into entering corners quicker. And, regardless of these fantastic new tires we have, sand/gravel/tar snakes will still put you on your ass just as quick as in the olde days. Also, the higher cornering speeds require a much more perfect line, with far less deviation allowable in case of emergency (or poor lines) to actually make the corner. To put it simply, the older bikes scared you into respecting them at much lower speeds, the new bikes are SO tolerant of ham-fisted-ness (especially with TC and stability control etc.) that it's much less drama and less warning before you get in WAY over your head.....and then it's usually too late. And, it's far easier for a n00b to take full advantage of all this new hp that gets them INTO trouble than it is for them to take full advantage of the handling and braking (to say nothing of their lines) to get them OUT of trouble.

A perfect example of this "sensation of speed" is a trip I took in my brothers turbo Mazdasport Miata. We were running maybe 60-ish mph with the top down thru some twisties on the way from Portland to the coast, and I could have sworn we were doing 80+......until I looked at the speedo. I was amazed. I told my brother I was surprised at the speed I felt we were going, and added that if I was on the bike I'd have another 20mph in hand on that road. It was weird.

[G35CO]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.
Excellent point. I've noticed that myself on occasion. Sometimes you're just not mentally/physiologically there, and that's when you need to back down and save it for a day when you're 100%. KNOWING when you're not 100% is crucial, and that typically comes with experience.

[cptschlongenheimer]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.

This.
Important point that none of us should ever forget.

[spideyrdr]

A perfect example of this "sensation of speed"...

I think being lower to the ground in a Miata has something to do with it. We perceive how fast the ground is whizzing by us much more when our eyes are 3 feet from the surface versus the 6 feet away our eyes are when we are on two wheels. When I get in my wife's crappy Camry (sorry honey) I feel like I am hauling ass compared to my Jeep or my motorcycle.

</off topic>

[longrider]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.

+2 I had just that experience Monday, I was heading from Morrison to Evergreen and every time I cranked up the speed I started making stupid mistakes so I just backed off and cruised.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I think being lower to the ground in a Miata has something to do with it. We perceive how fast the ground is whizzing by us much more when our eyes are 3 feet from the surface versus the 6 feet away our eyes are when we are on two wheels. When I get in my wife's crappy Camry (sorry honey) I feel like I am hauling ass compared to my Jeep or my motorcycle.

</off topic>
There is maybe some of that, but as tall as I am (6'1" - I barely fit in the Miata), I think my head was about the same height when I'm crouched down on the Gixxer, and I'm sure I'm actually closer to the ground when cranked over mid-turn. Now, if I was in a Kart or F1 car or something with my ass 3" off the ground, for sure. I think it was mostly that the Miata felt more "alive" at only 60mph. All the little inputs like the car settling on it's springs from one side to the other, moving around, whereas the Gixxer is rock-solid at whatever speed. I know that's the case comparing the old bikes to the new ones. The old 1100's had big, heavy, powerful engines (for the day), in a flexy frame with spindly forks, limp/cheap suspension, and weak brakes. So, they were always more "alive", always moving around underneath you a little. On the Gixxer, I feel acutely and more accurately what my tires are doing, the roughness of the road surface, but the bike itself feels like it's machined from billet, with only the suspension moving. On my old '83 GS1100ES, the whole bike was mvoing around, I could feel the forks flex. On my first street bike ('81 Yamahe Maxim 650) it had only a single front disk, and you could SEE the forks flex to the left when I got on the brakes, it DEFINATELY made going into corners hard on the brakes different in left turns than right turns.

[Ghost]

I don't consider myself experience rider but from the years I rode so far I notice another element of risk – some days you are not mentally capable of riding. Every once in a blue moon i go for a ride and I notice that I make stupid mistakes that I will never do normally. Instead of fighting it and forcing myself to bad situations I take it easy, make a coffee stop to reboot my brain or just go home.

Yeah, and this is especially problematic in group rides where people feel like they must keep up with the group and they must ride the full ride or else everyone will undoubtedly point and laugh and bitch about you behind your back--the truth is, if you're not feeling up to riding, don't ride.

Even if it means you have to lag in the back and/or just take off and head for home--do it. Everyone would rather you ride safely, at your pace, and if that's not enough, then just go home. It's not worth pushing yourself if you're not "fit" for the day...there'll be other days...

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Yeah, and this is especially problematic in group rides where people feel like they must keep up with the group and they must ride the full ride or else everyone will undoubtedly point and laugh and bitch about you behind your back--the truth is, if you're not feeling up to riding, don't ride.

Even if it means you have to lag in the back and/or just take off and head for home--do it. Everyone would rather you ride safely, at your pace, and if that's not enough, then just go home. It's not worth pushing yourself if you're not "fit" for the day...there'll be other days...
Exactly why that is the first and foremost thing that should be impressed upon a n00b.

[Bueller]

A quote that was on my FB feed today.

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward." -- Vernon Law

[Graphite675]

... Or the riders that are used to pushing it on the track get back on the street and lower their guard because they're not pushing as hard as they are on the track


I'm going to disagree with this also. Racing and riding the track has made me realize even more that the road is not the place to push your limits or work on technique.
I still ride the road on occasion but when I do it's at a mellow pace. No matter how well you may know a particular route the fact is on public roads it's ever changing. That's where the track is such a treat, it's always the same and predictable. No cars, no oil, no guard rails, no unexpected road repair.

I am a firm believer that riding the track will make you a mellow road rider. The roads just can't compare to the track.

.


.

[dirkterrell]

A quote that was on my FB feed today.

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward." -- Vernon Law

Awesome.

And for those of you who interpreted Christi's "can't run from the Reaper" comment as meaning there's nothing we can do, I didn't read it that way. I read it more along the lines of my statement that you can't make the risk in riding zero (except in the uninteresting case of not riding at all). There are situations that can come up that you can't predict or avoid but fortunately they are very rare.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

A quote that was on my FB feed today.

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward." -- Vernon Law
Excellent quote, I'll remember that. Notice it's a "she". ;)

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I am a firm believer that riding the track will make you a mellow road rider. The roads just can't compare to the track.

Dunno if I agree with this as a blanket statement, I've seen some people try and translate that ballz-out speed from the track to the street, thinking that automatically makes them a better street rider - not so at all.

And I'll have to add to the second statement that the reverse is true - the track can't compare to the street. Especially in terms of scenery, the extreme diversity of corners and road conditions (sand/gravel, moisture, etc.), "reading" a new road for the right line and where the corners go. In most ways, I'd say the street is far, far more difficult, and certainly less forgiving. Also, that track riding helps give you skills for lines, braking, lean, and such, but the street is so much more complex that the best experience for building your street skills is.....riding the street.....and not at track speeds.

[OUTLAWD]

I am a firm believer that riding the track will make you a mellow road rider. The roads just can't compare to the track.

.

I actually agree with this. I started riding slower in most cases on the street, but even if I pick up the pace, I am still only riding at a fraction of my ability or comfort level. I am by no means a fast person on the track, but on the street, I ride at ~40% of comfort level, only exceeding that on roads I know well, but still not going over ~60%...

when I was new to this twisty stuff a whopping 3 years ago, I was riding the same pace on the street and the track, and both were slow as shit in hindsight, but I was riding closer to my limit, but alot slower than I currently ride

[CaptGoodvibes]

Maybe I don't have enough experience to post in this thread but I'm not a n00b either. Two points I'd like to add and then I'll fade back to the audience again...

Choose your battles. I don't ride fast all the time. I am very mellow in town and around perceived danger be it animals hidden by thick vegetation close to the road, driveways, or anything else that alerts or spooks my gut. I don't have an ego when it comes to my safety. Again, choose your battles is meant to imply that riding fast isn't always necessary. Federal Blvd is a good example.

The comment about being off somehow and maybe it's not a good day to ride or perhaps going home is the best thing to do is right on. I let my shifts be my guide. If I'm shifting like a retard, I head for home. It's a clear indication to me that things are going downhill and other control issues are right around the corner... so to speak. But I have specific health issues that cause me to be starkly aware of this. Others might not so maybe pick something as a guideline as to fatigue limits that are outside of your own safety.

/ramble

Thanks for all the insight in this thread and others! Mid-level guys like me need to be reminded we have much to learn.

[bornwildnfree]

Awesome.

And for those of you who interpreted Christi's "can't run from the Reaper" comment as meaning there's nothing we can do, I didn't read it that way. I read it more along the lines of my statement that you can't make the risk in riding zero (except in the uninteresting case of not riding at all). There are situations that can come up that you can't predict or avoid but fortunately they are very rare.

That's exactly what I meant. Thanks for putting it way better than I could :-).

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

All that CAN be done to mitigate risk SHOULD be done (mental and physical health/state, gear, street experience, riders class, trackdays), but the only way to eliminate it entirely is to not ride.....and that simply isn't an option, at least for me. The question is simply, what level of risk are you willing to and SHOULD you take? If the road is more hazardous/dirty and/or you're not feeling right, dial it down. The more experience you have the better you are at determining those factors and how much you should slow. It's far better to ride slower at 40% of your max pace than slightly faster at 80% of your max pace.

For instance, I'm feeling pretty sick now with a bad sinus infection/cold, and I'm not even feeling up to riding from a strength/balance/fatigue standpoint right now. IF I make it out this weekend, it'll be for a very mild putt around town or MAYBE in the mtn's, but I'll have it dialed way back because I don't feel right (dizzy/weak).

[Graphite675]

And I'll have to add to the second statement that the reverse is true - the track can't compare to the street. Especially in terms of scenery, the extreme diversity of corners and road conditions (sand/gravel, moisture, etc.), "reading" a new road for the right line and where the corners go. In most ways, I'd say the street is far, far more difficult, and certainly less forgiving. Also, that track riding helps give you skills for lines, braking, lean, and such, but the street is so much more complex that the best experience for building your street skills is.....riding the street.....and not at track speeds.

I agree the scenery is beautiful and that's why I still ride the road on occasion. With that said the road (IMO) is not a race track and not a place to be learning "technique", "new lines", "dragging knee", etc. Yes I have done it on occasion myself but have less and less desire to do so anymore. (maybe old age? :-) It's just not safe and that's the bottom line. One wrong move and you could be face to face with oncoming traffic. Too many variables, too deadly. It's all personal choice though. I prefer to sit back and enjoy the ride and scenery at a mellower pace on the road now days.

[GixxerCarrie]

Wow..Guys...Super impressed with all of you! I knew we all could could come together and have a pretty easy going discussion. Its not just this Canyon, Its all Canyons. Even the street. (If I could only go to posts from Bueller where it wasn't always about the track).(they disappeared in the deep black hole).

I truly appreciate all your responses and opinions here. Many I know who posted I have a great respect for and this is exactly what I was looking for. Cause reading just this one thread could change someones life.

It just really bothered me that I saw another RIP rider. Those who don't take the advantage of some of the teachings as Dirk suggested(I'm guilty of this one too), at least can gain from your insights you have written above.

Thank you..its why I still stick around this joint!

[OUTLAWD]

I think we see more incidents on that particular route, because it is travelled by so many. A few weeks ago, I rounded a corner up east of FoCo to find a guy motionless in the middle of the road, and his bike over the ledge. The road in question is way more technical that Deckers, but off the radar for many denver-ites, so its less travelled.

and we are all glad that you do stick around Carrie :)

[TFOGGuys]

The most aggression I'll show on the street (in the canyons) is 70x70=49%. This means 70% of perceived available traction, times 70% of MY ability. Usually this translates as brisk cornering speeds, with relaxation on the straights. In Golden Gate, I rarely exceed 60 mph, but I might run pretty close to that in some of the corners with good visibility. I can recall a couple of occasions when I had the footpegs drag in Coal Creek on the west switchbacks, but that was at about 25 mph. I guess it all boils down to riding within yourself, as so many others have said.

126/67 presents a lot of challenges for the riders, especially after the Buffalo Creek and Hayman fires, as road conditions can change without warning (sand, washouts, potholes). I really enjoy that road, but rarely ride it any more, as it has become very busy and that pushed the danger:fun ratio in the wrong direction.

[duelist13]

I have spoken with residents of that piece of road who really hate sportbikes tearing it up, some have intimated that they know people who intentionally spread gravel along the route.

I'll intimate I just found an accessory to manslaughter :applause:

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I'll intimate I just found an accessory to manslaughter :applause:
Yup, at the very least. Since it was deliberate, with malice of forethought, I'd say murder 1.

[mtnairlover]

It's a brain thing when all else is equal...good and familiar road, experienced rider, sound body functions, mechanically sound machine, no obstacles on the road, etc.

I can't say for certain that that's what happens to everyone, but I have heard this particular statement more than once and from more than one rider..."I'm just not feeling it today."

The other thing that comes to mind is this sort of "moral compass" for lack of a better phrase. It's the idea that when we say, "I'm just not feeling it today," we actually take heed and take our riding down a notch or two.

Problem is...some of us would rather not say anything and just keep riding along like everyone else.

Here's a for instance: on the ride I took yesterday (over 700 miles round-trip), I was following BC14 who rides very well and very fast. It was early morning and in the mountains, so it was not exactly warm. As the morning wore on and the elevations got higher, my muscles started to shiver. As they continued to shiver, it got harder and harder to concentrate on my riding and leaning into the corners. I wanted to ride with the leader, but my legs were aching and my brain was telling me, "There is no way I am going to get your legs to do any more than what I'm giving them! Take it down a notch or two, or you're going into a ditch! I cannot help you concentrate on the road at this speed with this much ache!"

Did I admit to everything that was going on in my head? Not really, but I did end up riding more slowly and taking it easier until my legs finally warmed up.

Anyway, it's not about the legs and it's not about how I ride, but rather what a lot of us riders say to ourselves when we are riding with a group of friends. And unfortunately, not all of us listen to what our brains are telling us.

Lastly, there is the off chance that once in a blue moon, someone crashes because of a medical emergency...heart attack, brain aneurism, blurred vision, come to mind.

[VFR]

The variable is always the rider..Week in week out the road stays the same unless it is altered. Week in week out riders of different skill, mind set, and awareness of ability will hit that road that never changes.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

The variable is always the rider..Week in week out the road stays the same unless it is altered. Week in week out riders of different skill, mind set, and awareness of ability will hit that road that never changes.
Huh??? The road can change minute by minute with rain, runoff, a truck puking it's transmission or engine, or leaking coolant. A truck towing a trailer can (and does) cut the corner too tight dropping a few wheels off into the dirt and dragging tons of dirt and sand back onto the road. 10deg difference between runs can mean the difference between tar snakes that are just a little spooky to flat slippery. The early morning dew coating the road that evaporates before 10AM. Man, there's a million ways the road can change instantly. Only the geometry of the road itself doesn't change......until you have a flash flood and then a 50' stretch can just disappear with no warning in the immediate area (this happened all the time where I lived in SoCal on Garlock road). The road is ALWAYS alive, you just have to be sensitive enough to feel it's pulse (and that of your bike). I'd re-think that there assertion. ;)

[VFR]

Thats were the unless it's altered part comes in... The rod doesn't grow older and wiser, it doesn't have an emotion to manipulate it's shape. Things change it's appearance and reliability but it realistically stays the same. If I ride that road and you ride it Monkey only outside things can effect it..You ride no sand/gravel I ride it's there. But if you and I ride that road on the same day with the same circumstances the difference will be skill level, how we are feeling that day, focus, and knowledge of the road. That road will not change because I am coming down it instead of you...But all the the rider I am and the rider you are will make the difference on reaction to situations, how fast through a corner and blah blah blah. On days we lost riders on certain roads it is arguable to say they were not the first to go down that road that day. So the variable has to be the rider

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Thats were the unless it's altered part comes in... The rod doesn't grow older and wiser, it doesn't have an emotion to manipulate it's shape. Things change it's appearance and reliability but it realistically stays the same. If I ride that road and you ride it Monkey only outside things can effect it..You ride no sand/gravel I ride it's there. But if you and I ride that road on the same day with the same circumstances the difference will be skill level, how we are feeling that day, focus, and knowledge of the road. That road will not change because I am coming down it instead of you...But all the the rider I am and the rider you are will make the difference on reaction to situations, how fast through a corner and blah blah blah. On days we lost riders on certain roads it is arguable to say they were not the first to go down that road that day. So the variable has to be the rider
Yeah, but that's what I mean about it being alive. It, as do we, reacts to temperature, the seasons, the people that drive on it (dragging dirt with them). So, even if you are very familiar with the road, it's always constantly changing due to all those things I mentioned. Those that are familiar with a road can predict what corners tend to get gravel dragged onto them, where the runoff is going to be, where livestock may be an issue, where the tar strips get bad in the hot midday sun, etc.. To me, every road really IS alive in it's own way. The rider must be able to react to all these changes that may ocur within mere minutes of either of us traveling it. :)

[VFR]

But..If the situation is a non attentive driver, be bike or car caused the rider to react in a way that caused a bad reaction (run wide) then the variable could change..riding when its busy compared to empty can come into play, or with someone causing you (no matter the person) to have to make a quick decision or running into them all together

[VFR]

I agree with you on the road being alive depending on time of day, year, animals, all the things you mentioned.

[Clovis]

Is it just me? Or is it the longer you've been riding the fewer stupid chances you take?

I've only been riding for 4 years now but the way that I ride today compared to the first year are totally different.

In year 1 I rode faster then today and took stupid chances - then I crashed with the only real injury being to my ego. A few other close calls along the way served as a reality check.

Now a days I'm pretty calm and content to be sweeping in the back when I'm with a group. I also just turned 30 a couple weeks ago.

I think there are a few factors that play into why people ride beyond their limits.

1) As Bueller mentioned. Modern sport bikes extend a rider's actual ability.
2) Herd mentality. I like riding with groups as much as anyone else but they can be deadly. You don't want to be "last" so you push yourself to keep up. You also tend to do more show boating. I see guys pop wheelies in traffic when they're in a group a lot more often then solo.
3) Delusions of grandeur. In reality we're all pretty much the same but everybody likes to think they're this unique snow flake. How many times have you said "Yeah, but that won't happen to me"?

A person will push the limit dozens, maybe even hundreds of times and get away with it. But sooner or later, no matter how small the probability, anything that can happen, eventually will given enough time.

On any given day that you are speeding you have a less then 1% chance of getting a speeding ticket. How many speeding tickets have you gotten?

-Clov

[Swift]

Horsepower Hill takes it up a notch cause you can hit triple digit speeds no problem.
Unless you have an old BMW like me that looks like an old man with hair growing out of his ears.

[GixxerCarrie]

Is it just me? Or is it the longer you've been riding the fewer stupid chances you take?

I've only been riding for 4 years now but the way that I ride today compared to the first year are totally different.

In year 1 I rode faster then today and took stupid chances - then I crashed with the only real injury being to my ego. A few other close calls along the way served as a reality check.

Now a days I'm pretty calm and content to be sweeping in the back when I'm with a group. I also just turned 30 a couple weeks ago.

I think there are a few factors that play into why people ride beyond their limits.

1) As Bueller mentioned. Modern sport bikes extend a rider's actual ability.
2) Herd mentality. I like riding with groups as much as anyone else but they can be deadly. You don't want to be "last" so you push yourself to keep up. You also tend to do more show boating. I see guys pop wheelies in traffic when they're in a group a lot more often then solo.
3) Delusions of grandeur. In reality we're all pretty much the same but everybody likes to think they're this unique snow flake. How many times have you said "Yeah, but that won't happen to me"?

A person will push the limit dozens, maybe even hundreds of times and get away with it. But sooner or later, no matter how small the probability, anything that can happen, eventually will given enough time.

On any given day that you are speeding you have a less then 1% chance of getting a speeding ticket. How many speeding tickets have you gotten?

-Clov

:applause::applause:

[VFR]

Clovis, grand observations dude.

My change of riding dangerously came on 29 January 2004...When my little girl was born

My wife knows if I go out on the bike I went out doing something I love, my oldest son and daughter they aspire to ride once they are of age and are both renegades also. But the innocence of that 7 year old, man I start thinking I need to start doing it smarter for her and give her the opportunity to grow up aspired to ride. Not growing up scared of them because I chose to be dangerous. Stuff happens and no one is promised tomorrow, I just have to do what I can to help myself get there.

[mtnairlover]

Stuff happens and no one is promised tomorrow, I just have to do what I can to help myself get there.

^this

[BC14]

MTNAIRLOVER said:


The other thing that comes to mind is this sort of "moral compass" for lack of a better phrase. It's the idea that when we say, "I'm just not feeling it today," we actually take heed and take our riding down a notch or two. Totally agree with that one. I've hit deckers and other similarly spirited routes on different days with vastly different feelings about my riding ability, bike condition, how the road feels, etc.

Problem is...some of us would rather not say anything and just keep riding along like everyone else. I'm not ashamed to mention if there is an "issue" keeping me "slow" sometimes, but I'm sure some people, especially if they are around some new people, won't pipe up and say anything.

Here's a for instance: on the ride I took yesterday (over 700 miles round-trip), I was following BC14 who rides very well and very fast. It was early morning and in the mountains, so it was not exactly warm. As the morning wore on and the elevations got higher, my muscles started to shiver. As they continued to shiver, it got harder and harder to concentrate on my riding and leaning into the corners. I wanted to ride with the leader, but my legs were aching and my brain was telling me, "There is no way I am going to get your legs to do any more than what I'm giving them! Take it down a notch or two, or you're going into a ditch! I cannot help you concentrate on the road at this speed with this much ache!" I was a bit chilly too, but figured it was gonna warm up, but never did. I do tend to concentrate too much on my body temp(cold) than my riding sometimes and I've had some issues because of it.

Did I admit to everything that was going on in my head? Not really, but I did end up riding more slowly and taking it easier until my legs finally warmed up.

Anyway, it's not about the legs and it's not about how I ride, but rather what a lot of us riders say to ourselves when we are riding with a group of friends. And unfortunately, not all of us listen to what our brains are telling us.

Lastly, there is the off chance that once in a blue moon, someone crashes because of a medical emergency...heart attack, brain aneurism, blurred vision, come to mind. One can never prepare for the unexpected, just gotta take each day as it comes, and do your best to make it to the next.

[fiveninerzero]

Deckers sucks IMO. My personal technique is just to stay away from it. Since I started this technique, I haven't wrecked on that road.The twisties aren't that great IME and there are many other roads that I can ride that are twistier and have less foreign objects and fugged up pavement. These are my opinions so flame on.

[BC14]

Deckers sucks IMO. My personal technique is just to stay away from it. Since I started this technique, I haven't wrecked on that road.The twisties aren't that great IME and there are many other roads that I can ride that are twistier and have less foreign objects and fugged up pavement. These are my opinions so flame on.
:violin:

[Matty]

The most aggression I'll show on the street (in the canyons) is 70x70=49%. This means 70% of perceived available traction, times 70% of MY ability. Usually this translates as brisk cornering speeds, with relaxation on the straights.

:imwithstupid:

[Drift]

The most aggression I'll show on the street (in the canyons) is 70x70=49%. This means 70% of perceived available traction, times 70% of MY ability. Usually this translates as brisk cornering speeds, with relaxation on the straights.

I have not heard this formula before...but I like it! +1

[FZRguy]

Try that road, or any local canyon, on a week day early afternoon and avoid weekends and holidays.

Ride the “Pace” as explained in Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch (posted on the CSC home page).

Ride alone or with one or two trusted riding buddies.

[R1NORI]

Some footage from Deckers four years ago this weekend - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdt5rdKyuiw



Jim, you and I have ridden deckers for years. Simply because it IS one of the best rides in Colorado. We have seen it all over the years. Yet we have never had any problems what so ever.
What do you suppose the difference is?
Bash too!

[Frankie675]

I have a buddy that lives in Pine and every time I stop in he tells us of another motorcycle crash.

If you ride like you're at the track....well there's your problem - You're not at the track!
Ride like you're on the road. Don't trust anyone, any turn, any road, any weather, and dress for the worst case scenario.

[Clovis]

Nice 2007 video.

In 2007 the road was recently repaved and in excellent condition. The last few times I've been up through Deckers it has been in the WRX. Mrs. Clovis and I like to go up to Beau Jo's in Evergreen on a weekend afternoon. Last time we went, which was about a month ago we talked about how the road has really fallen to shit.

Between the tar snakes, pot holes, debris on the road, it's just not the same road it was in 2007. It's really a shame because Deckers was my first true love on a bike.

I guess budget concerns will do that. If I come across a Muni bond to repave Hwy 67 you guys will be the first ones I'm calling! :)

-Clovis

[GixxerCarrie]

Jim, you and I have ridden deckers for years. Simply because it IS one of the best rides in Colorado. We have seen it all over the years. Yet we have never had any problems what so ever.
What do you suppose the difference is?
Bash too!

That was where I was going orig. when I posted this. Given Jim's experience and given some of you being Instructors now..What advice would you give...given your expierence and pointers that you know from riding that route many times...

Regardless I thought most of this discussion was good. I was primarily doing it for others as there are alot of newbs out there..who may use advice given..or as Bueller said..Just wanted peeps to be little more open eyed given the fatalities and deaths as of late.

[R1NORI]

First of all, we do have a lot of experience riding Deckers. Prob since the late 90's. However we weren't always fast. It took years and a lot of miles.
The best advice, and it is said again and again. Go at your own pace. It is not a race. No trophy at the top! As you learn- you get faster. It is not as you go faster - you get faster.
Jim and I know the Deckers ride as good as any race track. The difference is, conditions change, so ride with some reserve to adjust.
Take as many classes you can! American supercamp, track days,race schools,books, dvd's.
As you get better you can run at a higher pace still with some reserve.
The reality is that sportbikes are made to be ridden aggressive. That may be some of the attraction. But one should learn all they can before riding one aggressive.
One might say that riding aggressive in the canyons is stupid. And they are right! But there can be a huge difference in what stupid is, just by an experience standpoint.
Bottom line is, it is your personal choice and it is suppose to be fun!
Ride fast, take chances, be safe.
The perfect mix
If you can do all three
Good on you!

[Bueller]

^^Nice contribution :up:

[Ezzzzy1]

I think there needs to be something said about the rides that are posted up on here as well... Not that its a bad thing but what it does is put a random group of riders together on any given day. I feel more comfortable riding (hard) in the canyons not having to worry if someone is going to fly by me, ram into me, stop in front or stand up in a corner.

Its not a stain on anyone, I guess my thought contribution to this thread is just that by riding in smaller groups that are more familiar to you, you can focus more on riding than the people around you. :up:

[Bashed]

Jim, you and I have ridden deckers for years. Simply because it IS one of the best rides in Colorado. We have seen it all over the years. Yet we have never had any problems what so ever.
What do you suppose the difference is?
Bash too!


I will never forget the first time I rode Decker's. It was on my '81 XS650 Special spring of '82. It is a great motorcycling route that has quick access from the front range. I have seen to many accidents to count over the decades and the one thing that stands out to me as a leading indicator for accidents is rider error, for whatever reason. My one and only accident in the same time period was on Decker's, and my own fault. I didn't read the conditions and lost traction in the 2" of hail that was present that suddenly appeared. I hydoplaned and biffed it, but walked away without a scratch, due to me wearing all my gear. One accident in 30 years is and acceptable risk ratio for me.

It is easy to twist the throttle and go fast, the key to surviving many years of riding, is knowing when to close the throttle and slow down.

[CaptGoodvibes]

I think there needs to be something said about the rides that are posted up on here as well... Not that its a bad thing but what it does is put a random group of riders together on any given day. I feel more comfortable riding (hard) in the canyons not having to worry if someone is going to fly by me, ram into me, stop in front or stand up in a corner.

Its not a stain on anyone, I guess my thought contribution to this thread is just that by riding in smaller groups that are more familiar to you, you can focus more on riding than the people around you. :up:

I have a health problem that causes injuries to heal very slowly. If I had a broken leg, there is a chance it would turn septic before it was healed and they would have to remove it.

When I went on my first CSC ride, it was the noob ride in 08. I remember talking to some guys that apparently weren't in CSC. They pointed across the lot at MOCO and said, "they're CSC. Those guys are nuts. They pass in corners and make each other crash. Be careful."

I've been lucky to stick with a core group of riders in CSC. But I've been wanting to branch out and meet some more people. I sure wish there was a way to do that with knowledge that my personal health issues wouldn't be strained to the max due to someone else riding like an ass.

[GregsGSXR]

My first experience with this road was my first ride with the CSC. I ended up with the "faster" group and I was way out of my league. As soon as we left Pine Junction I knew I was in way over my head. When you are doing triple didgets and not keeping up there is a problem. SO... having ridden for most of my life on some sort of bike, I backed off and rode my ride (they were on their way back before I even got to Deckers). The take away lesson from this is KNOW YOUR ABILITIES. It is fun to challenge yourself sometimes, hell you aren't having fun unless you are a little scared. This being said that road is sneaky sometimes with the tar, gravel, and other people (CARS AND BIKES). As long as you respect it that is a beautiful road all the way!!!

[Matty]

I will never forget the first time I rode Decker's. It was on my '81 XS650 Special spring of '82. It is a great motorcycling route that has quick access from the front range. I have seen to many accidents to count over the decades and the one thing that stands out to me as a leading indicator for accidents is rider error, for whatever reason. My one and only accident in the same time period was on Decker's, and my own fault. I didn't read the conditions and lost traction in the 2" of hail that was present that suddenly appeared. I hydoplaned and biffed it, but walked away without a scratch, due to me wearing all my gear. One accident in 30 years is and acceptable risk ratio for me.

It is easy to twist the throttle and go fast, the key to surviving many years of riding, is knowing when to close the throttle and slow down.
tear... Hahaha. Well said!

[R1NORI]

It is nice to have a "core" group to trust and ride with.
I have had a great core group over the years.
If you would like to ride with us tomorrow.
PM Me
Full leathers - is part of this core.
8 am departure

[Ezzzzy1]

You know what would be cool....? A ride that paired an experienced canyon rider with someone that know how to ride but is looking to get better in the canyons8). Something like 5 groups of 2 going off in 5-10 intervals. I have a fair amount of canyon experience but would totally jump at the opportunity to be critiqued, might be the only way I would hear about something I am doing wrong or could be doing better.

Im sure it would take a lot for some of the boards better canyon riders to "donate" a morning but I think the opportunity to share some of the great pointers you have collected over the years would be awesome! Im sure lunch could be worked in there as well:dunno:.

Dont want to jack the thread but I think its a really proactive approach to the original concern.

So lets just start a list of the 5 canyon experts and go from there..LOL

[KawBoy]

I've been riding sportbikes before they were even called sportbikes (since 1973) and have to agree with just about everything being said in this thread. Here's my two cents worth.

First of all, I try to think of EVERY ride as a practice ride, always evaluating my technique and striving for improvement. When I taught my son how to drive several years ago I suggested a "point" system to track errors, which I now use everyday on the bike. I know that some days I ride better than others, depending on god knows what. So I find that having an objective measure of how things are going is useful. I assign points for each error I make and if they get above 2.5, I know I'm in trouble. Here are a few examples.

Half point errors:
Forgot to signal or cancel a signal.
Stopping in a gear other than first.
Daydreaming at a light and didn't notice it change.

1 point errors:
Poor line in a curve at moderate speed.
Wrong gear choice for the curve.
Where did that car behind me come from?

2 point errors:
Poor line in a curve at high speed.
How did I get so close to that guy in front of me and who told him to stop?
Uh oh, I may be a little too fast in this curve, let's just hit the brakes.

3 point errors:
I'll never be able to navigate around that debris in the road, so I'll just ride straight through it.
Oops, I really wasn't expecting this curve to tighten up, so I'll just go wide, nobody's coming.

5 point error:
Speeding ticket

10 point error:
Crash

Feel free to add your own pet mistakes to the list. The good news is that you don't have to tell anyone how many screw-ups you're making and there's always tomorrow.

Also, if I ever got up the nerve to tape some motivational reminders on the inside of my windscreen, here is what they might say.

"I know I can pass this group of 6 cars in the no passing zone, but I won't."
"I know I can go flat out in this straightaway and not get caught, but I won't."
"Surely I can catch up to that guy in front of me, but I won't."

And the most important of all, "Look up."

The ride in and out of Deckers is a great run. Some say it's non-technical, others say its treacherous. Either way, it can and usually does present challenges to all of us, especially if you ride it enough times.

[VFR]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/29/128933724802071868.jpg

[Cornfed]

You know what would be cool....? A ride that paired an experienced canyon rider with someone that know how to ride but is looking to get better in the canyons8). Something like 5 groups of 2 going off in 5-10 intervals. I have a fair amount of canyon experience but would totally jump at the opportunity to be critiqued, might be the only way I would hear about something I am doing wrong or could be doing better.

Im sure it would take a lot for some of the boards better canyon riders to "donate" a morning but I think the opportunity to share some of the great pointers you have collected over the years would be awesome! Im sure lunch could be worked in there as well:dunno:.

Dont want to jack the thread but I think its a really proactive approach to the original concern.

So lets just start a list of the 5 canyon experts and go from there..LOL

I consider myself an above average rider with several track days and a couple of races under my belt. But being new to Denver Im finding the canyons more challenging than I expected. Id spring for lunch for an ego-free guided tour.
New thread?

[duelist13]

An ego-free guided tour.
New thread?

This sounds like my kind of group ride :). I've slipped on sand enough times to know it's gotta be ego-free one way or another!

[stubbicatt]

Man. I rode here yesterday. There is a 6 mile stretch of road with those "snakes" pavement sealant applied to it which made it a much slower route than usual, starting about 4 miles south of Deckers and continuing.

Beware!

[stubbicatt]

I think there needs to be something said about the rides that are posted up on here as well... Not that its a bad thing but what it does is put a random group of riders together on any given day. I feel more comfortable riding (hard) in the canyons not having to worry if someone is going to fly by me, ram into me, stop in front or stand up in a corner.

Its not a stain on anyone, I guess my thought contribution to this thread is just that by riding in smaller groups that are more familiar to you, you can focus more on riding than the people around you. :up:

Group of 1?

[Ezzzzy1]

Man. I rode here yesterday. There is a 6 mile stretch of road with those "snakes" pavement sealant applied to it which made it a much slower route than usual, starting about 4 miles south of Deckers and continuing.

Beware!
Those tar strips are no joke, no matter how many times you hit them you still start to wonder if both your tires just went flat!


Group of 1?
Group of 1 just as much fun as group of 10...:down:

[GixxerCarrie]

17 of us rode it yestereday...Not one injury, not one crash. Washout (which you had to be aware of given the rain) more traffic than we have seen in a long time.

Eveyone rode their own ride...Was a good day.

[Ghost]

You know what would be cool....? A ride that paired an experienced canyon rider with someone that know how to ride but is looking to get better in the canyons8). Something like 5 groups of 2 going off in 5-10 intervals. I have a fair amount of canyon experience but would totally jump at the opportunity to be critiqued, might be the only way I would hear about something I am doing wrong or could be doing better.

Not bashing, but really the best place to improve and get feedback is the track.

A road, any road, is too variable from corner to corner and there're just too many outside factors that can affect your ride--plus you can't (or shouldn't) push it on the street like you can on the track.

On the track, the "road" is always the same, so you can tell if you're improving or not since everything except you is the same each lap (mostly/except for minor changes).

Plus, with people able to both follow and lead you, and even people watching from the side of the track, plus video, you can get way more feedback than is possible canyon running.



17 of us rode it yestereday...Not one injury, not one crash. Washout (which you had to be aware of given the rain) more traffic than we have seen in a long time.

Eveyone rode their own ride...Was a good day.

Sweet.

[Bueller]

But being new to Denver Im finding the canyons more challenging than I expected. Id spring for lunch for an ego-free guided tour.
New thread?
Done

http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41042

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

17 of us rode it yestereday...Not one injury, not one crash.
The way EVERY ride should end. ;) (Oh, and no tickets either!) :)

[FZRguy]

But I've been wanting to branch out and meet some more people.

Exactly why I've been doing these.

http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40955

[50sGrl]

Re: "ride your own ride" in groups

This is an excellent theory, but only works if the group occasionally waits for the slower rider who actually is riding their own pace. Otherwise, it's just lip service because that slower rider won't actually be able to be part of the "group" unless they push it and try to keep up.

[BC14]

Re: "ride your own ride" in groups

This is an excellent theory, but only works if the group occasionally waits for the slower rider who actually is riding their own pace. Otherwise, it's just lip service because that slower rider won't actually be able to be part of the "group" unless they push it and try to keep up.
I very much agree with that statement. You've got to have a good group of people riding that understand that not everyone is a speed demon and some prefer to ride more casually. Patience is a virtue.

[50sGrl]

.

[Ghost]

It is nice to have a "core" group to trust and ride with.
I have had a great core group over the years.


I think my core of riders have mostly quit riding, but I definitely agree with the sentiment.

A group of riders is either a "Group Ride" or mostly strangers, or simply a "ride" with friends--and I don't necessarily mean BFF, but someone who's at least a good, solid, reliable riding buddy that you can trust.

Developing and grooming a good, solid Core is definitely not easy, and too often it's overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

Edit:

Maybe we should start something similar to the Rider/Mentor thread, but as more of a Rider 4 Rider thing to pair up with like-minded and similar-paced and similar-schedule riders?

[UglyDogRacing]

Reviving this post. A lot of good info that can be applied where ever you ride, not just the road that's the subject of this thread.

[Drano]

Reviving this post. A lot of good info that can be applied where ever you ride, not just the road that's the subject of this thread.

I read this not too long ago and was impressed by the points brought up. I agree, it's an informative read that discusses a lot more than the Deckers Route. If you're new to riding, you should read it.

[GMR]

maybe I should post in canyon conditions. but heading south on a right hand turn (that's as specific as I can be) there was a patch of gravel the whole lane. I saw gravel ahead and slowed down but then that's when I saw there was no real way around it. Luckily nobody was coming so I just kept straight until through and went a little in the other lane. Would have been really hairy with traffic.
that's f'd that people would put oil and gravel on corners, not sure if I can even believe it. i'm sure maybe somebody has done it, but I bet it's almost always natural

[Ezzzzy1]

This thread should be bumped every March/April! Great read.

My experience in all of the canyons has been this:

The days that I go ride them and I am not mentally focused, they are a bitch. Like anything there are good times and bad but when I ride the canyons and im not 100%. I struggle. To make it short - Dont go unless you are dialed riding wise. Stayed up to late last night? Hungover? Arguing with your wife? Just got fired? This is not the time to ride much less the canyons.

Second. You have heard it a million times on here but, RIDE YOUR RIDE!!!!!!!! Its not a race to the top. Especially if you are riding a new route. The more comfortable you get with a route the quicker you can go but no matter how many 1st timers go down there are still experienced rider that do too. I have been riding for almost half my life and I still dont like seeing sand patches when coming around a corner fast (pretty sure every motorcyclist feels the same!). Seriously, the only good thing about this type of situation is that you are within you ability and know what to do. If you are over your head to begin with, you are 100% ABSOLUTELY going to fail in the situation... Unless you get lucky as shit.

I believe I have become a better rider in general because of what I have learned in the canyons but the canyons aint a track. There are 50 foot cliffs to ride off of and rocks 2 feet away from you at times to smash into. Thats why there are thousands of track racers that will offer up lessons on how to ride the shit out of a track but 0 people that are willing to tell you how to make it to Deckers the quickest.