No Bike Lemon Law, eh?

[Ghost]

CO does not cover motorcycles under it's Lemon Law guidelines, but has anyone had any experience with something similar such as goodwill-buybacks or the like?

I know in the auto industry, manufacturers spend (literally) millions every year buying back cars deemed to be lemons so they can avoid actual lemon law proceedings.

Of course, without a state law requiring it, I assume most motorcycle manufacturers don't bother, but IF you know something I don't, I'd appreciate the input...

[TransNone13]

Have a problem? My new bike has leaky forks... Oh well, gonna have to ante up and fix it. BMW wants $350 or so :wtf:. At least I'll be set for awhile lol!

[Sarge]

Are you sure that didn't have something to do with the deer you deflected off your windscreen? :lol:

[TransNone13]

No, it's a little oily down there and I just want to knock it out before it gets bad. The deer hit my front tire and that's it. I found some crap on the side of my bike. I guess it evacuated itself while spinning and got my bike with poo.

[Ghost]

Have a problem? My new bike has leaky forks... Oh well, gonna have to ante up and fix it. BMW wants $350 or so :wtf:. At least I'll be set for awhile lol!

Ongoing, recurring, intermittent problem for the last year, ever since purchase.

Multiple visits to the shop, no solution found, warranty ends this month... Sick of it.

[TransNone13]

That 600RR? I think my issue is just from sitting for years literally. Seals are probably a little rotten. Other than that I haven't noticed anything. Used bikes make me nervous, took a leap of faith.

[BC14]

That 600RR? I think my issue is just from sitting for years literally. Seals are probably a little rotten. Other than that I haven't noticed anything. Used bikes make me nervous, took a leap of faith.
Time takes its toll on rubber seals/gaskets/hoses/tires.

[BC14]

http://www.carlemon.com/lemon/CO_law.html

http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpExt.dll?f=templates&eMail=Y&fn=main-h.htm&cp=cocode/1/6d9fa/70d75/70e86/70e9e

A little light reading.

[Ghost]

That 600RR? I think my issue is just from sitting for years literally. Seals are probably a little rotten. Other than that I haven't noticed anything. Used bikes make me nervous, took a leap of faith.

Yeah, it's the CBR, bought new from holdover stock last August. Nothing but problems, including the current/recurring dies-while-at-altitude one.


http://www.carlemon.com/lemon/CO_law.html

http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpExt.dll?f=templates&eMail=Y&fn=main-h.htm&cp=cocode/1/6d9fa/70d75/70e86/70e9e

A little light reading.

Yeah, I'm actually pretty up on those from my auto background, but, unfortunately, CO excludes motorcycles.

http://www.carlemon.com/lemon/CO_LemonFAQ.html

Manufacturers can "Goodwill Buyback" to avoid LL proceedings, but that's to sidestep legal expenses that would make it more costly than the inevitable outcome.

Since there's no LL for bikes I'm not sure they'll be as likely to assist since it's not saving them money...

[brennahm]

Vehicle1 got Ducati to buy back an 848...

[Ghost]

Vehicle1 got Ducati to buy back an 848...

Did he have to lawyer up or did they actually just work work with him?

[Cornfed]

I'm with ya Ghost. 15 yrs in the car biz and I've been a part of a couple of buy backs. Got to be some of your auto experiences that can help you. Good luck brotha.

[BC14]

Yeah, it's the CBR, bought new from holdover stock last August. Nothing but problems, including the current/recurring dies-while-at-altitude one.



Yeah, I'm actually pretty up on those from my auto background, but, unfortunately, CO excludes motorcycles.

http://www.carlemon.com/lemon/CO_LemonFAQ.html

Manufacturers can "Goodwill Buyback" to avoid LL proceedings, but that's to sidestep legal expenses that would make it more costly than the inevitable outcome.

Since there's no LL for bikes I'm not sure they'll be as likely to assist since it's not saving them money...
Damn the bad luck. Hope you can get a good resolution to your bike woes.

[Ghost]

I'm with ya Ghost. 15 yrs in the car biz and I've been a part of a couple of buy backs. Got to be some of your auto experiences that can help you. Good luck brotha.

Yeah, same, even seen quite a few that if it were me, I'd have told the customer to go pound sand--but they got bought back anyway.

But, sadly, that's because the Lemon Law makes it cheaper for them to buyback even in the case where it's clearly the customer's fault than it is to fight it (plus then they resell the car anyway--typically for a profit).

Here...I'm not sure I have much leverage, just their goodwill IF they feel like helping...


Damn the bad luck. Hope you can get a good resolution to your bike woes.

Yep. Been a rash of it...thanks man, I'll try to see where it goes...

[mastap07]

heard about the shitty performance of the bike and weird gas tank story this morning... wish i could help but i got nothing. sorry main. hopefully all works out in the end even if you have to office space that shit!

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2008/03/office-space-printer.jpg

[madvlad]

Dude this bike just doesn't give you a break does it?

[Ghost]

heard about the shitty performance of the bike and weird gas tank story this morning... wish i could help but i got nothing. sorry main. hopefully all works out in the end even if you have to office space that shit!

Thanks man, and this bike might make a better fax machine than motorcycle at this point...


Dude this bike just doesn't give you a break does it?

Only the bad kind ;)

[THoward]

This was an issue ABATE tried to deal with several years ago. Actually way before my tenure. We supported legislation to include motorcycles in the lemon law. The motorcycle dealers fought us tooth and nail. We were even threatened by some that if we pursued the issue further...they'd put us out of business. So we backed off and have not addressed it since then. Ended up with a lot of hard feelings towards ABATE from dealers all over the state. There is one in C.S. that we mended fences with in the last 2 years and this happened over 12 years ago. IMO motorcycles should be included in the law.

[brennahm]

Before the torches are lit and pitchforks raised...

...how could they put you out of business? Are the dealers that important to your cause? Could you elaborate on this? I'm really interested in how that whole relationship works etc.

[Ghost]

This was an issue ABATE tried to deal with several years ago. Actually way before my tenure. We supported legislation to include motorcycles in the lemon law. The motorcycle dealers fought us tooth and nail. We were even threatened by some that if we pursued the issue further...they'd put us out of business. So we backed off and have not addressed it since then. Ended up with a lot of hard feelings towards ABATE from dealers all over the state. There is one in C.S. that we mended fences with in the last 2 years and this happened over 12 years ago. IMO motorcycles should be included in the law.

That's really asinine on the dealership's part.

Lemon Law doesn't in any way deprive the dealer of anything--unless it's milking a customer for endless repairs on a defective vehicle, but, even then, LL usually has a restricted scope of time and defect. Thus, it has to keep returning for the same problem--and, typically, LL overlaps with OEM warranty period anyway, so it's not like they're missing a ton of billable hours.

And, if things progress to where the vehicle is deemed a lemon then the OEM usually will offer to buy the customer out of the product and/or trade-assist them into a new (equivalent) one. It's all cheaper than fighting it out.

If that's the case, then as far as the dealership is concerned they've just sold a second vehicle to the same customer. They made their initial profit on the defective vehicle (which the OEM buys back) and then the OEM will use the dealership as the point of sale for the replacement vehicle--and the dealership gets its profit for handling the transaction.

Really, it's win-win for the dealership since the OEM ends up eating all the costs and the dealership makes a customer happy and makes a profit (twice). And, typically, the OEM will refurbish/recondition the car (or in this case it'd be a bike) and then put it up for sale at the local auction, so in theory the same dealer could buy that very same car/bike at the auction for a significant discount and then re-sell it for profit (and since it was a Goodwill Buyback, it's never titled/branded as a Lemon). In my years working the auto side of things, I've never seen a dealership oppose LL other than the relatively minor PITA of the various paperwork and OEM/Dealer back-and-forth dance to ultimately get the OEM to step in and buy the car out...

I'm stunned that the m/c dealerships wouldn't be on board and are, in fact, opposed to extending the LL to cover bikes--as it does in other states...

What rationale did they use to oppose the idea?

[UglyDogRacing]

Have a problem? My new bike has leaky forks... Oh well, gonna have to ante up and fix it. BMW wants $350 or so :wtf:. At least I'll be set for awhile lol!

350 is alot to replace fork seals. no reason to take it to a BMW dealer for that.

[TransNone13]

350 is alot to replace fork seals. no reason to take it to a BMW dealer for that.

I feel the same way, but am somewhat limited by my options in CoS. I also don't know too much about suspension and not sure I'd order the right parts. All I care is that the work is warranted and done correctly. I don't trust dealers here unless they're certified and I don't know of any independent shops ATM.

[UglyDogRacing]

I feel the same way, but am somewhat limited by my options in CoS. I also don't know too much about suspension and not sure I'd order the right parts. All I care is that the work is warranted and done correctly. I don't trust dealers here unless they're certified and I don't know of any independent shops ATM.

have Bart do them. with your mra discount it would be around 200. the 150 you save will more than cover your ride up here and back.

[TransNone13]

Ill give him a call, thanks.

[Wrider]

I feel the same way, but am somewhat limited by my options in CoS. I also don't know too much about suspension and not sure I'd order the right parts. All I care is that the work is warranted and done correctly. I don't trust dealers here unless they're certified and I don't know of any independent shops ATM.

Or you can call Treacy over at Jackel Motorsports. Independent and he knows what he's doing.

[TransNone13]

Or you can call Treacy over at Jackel Motorsports. Independent and he knows what he's doing.


I know them, didn't know if they were reputable or not. Just ordered the seals and dust seal. Should be able to fix it this weekend I hope :).

[THoward]

Before the torches are lit and pitchforks raised...

...how could they put you out of business? Are the dealers that important to your cause? Could you elaborate on this? I'm really interested in how that whole relationship works etc.

Maybe I should have clarified that a bit better, they would put our Rider Ed program out of business. Yes they are important to us. Our rider education program relies on the dealerships to get us "loaner" bikes for our classes. We get the bikes from the dealerships on "loan" for 1 year at the end of that year we purchase the bikes at a reduced rate. We use several dealers because each dealer can only get so many "loaner" bikes.

The dealers that fought us on this issue stated that they would lose income having to work on bikes that had issues for no pay and it would put them out of business. All of the dealerships at that time were totally opposed to the lemon law including motorcycles and flat out told us....you pursue this....you will never get loaner bikes from us again. As a nonprofit, we can't afford to pay market price for bikes. So it was agreed that we would back off.

[Ghost]

This is outright bullshit. They either don't understand, or they're willfully ignorant.

I was a service writer, and I worked the corporate side of things as well. No one works for free. Either warranty pays, the customer pays, the manufacturer pays, or some combination where customer pays X and Manufacturer pays Y.

Lemon Law gives consumers legal defense against defective vehicles, and it's between the consumer and the manufacturer, the dealership is merely the middleman who juggles everything and works with both sides. But, in all things, they get paid by someone for any work they perform.

Once a vehicle is up for 2-10 consideration, meaning it's a LL candidate, the manufacturer will typically step in and buyback the car (or bike if it was covered). The repairing dealership is usually the point of sale for both the buyback and the replacement vehicle, with the manufacturer eating any incurred loss on the deal.

Your dealerships simply are ignorant of how LL works, and their opposition to including bikes is nonsensical at best...


Maybe I should have clarified that a bit better, they would put our Rider Ed program out of business. Yes they are important to us. Our rider education program relies on the dealerships to get us "loaner" bikes for our classes. We get the bikes from the dealerships on "loan" for 1 year at the end of that year we purchase the bikes at a reduced rate. We use several dealers because each dealer can only get so many "loaner" bikes.

The dealers that fought us on this issue stated that they would lose income having to work on bikes that had issues for no pay and it would put them out of business. All of the dealerships at that time were totally opposed to the lemon law including motorcycles and flat out told us....you pursue this....you will never get loaner bikes from us again. As a nonprofit, we can't afford to pay market price for bikes. So it was agreed that we would back off.

[THoward]

I couldn't agree more Ghost.

This excerpt was taken from the Powersports Dealers Association of Colorado history page of their web site.

"There have been many, many other successes including stopping the following; a motorcycle lemon law, a surcharge on motorcycle tire disposal, mandatory health insurance for motorcyclists, a ban on 2-way communications on motorcycles, attempts to raise fines for motorcycle dealer violations, lowering noise emissions to levels motorcycles could not meet, inclusion in the Front Range Clean Air Program with requirements that could not be met and more."

As I said, this was before my tenure so I am looking back thru archives, this was the group that fought the legislation. They have a strong lobby and a well paid lobbyist.

[Ghost]

^ ignorance plus money is a terrible combination...

[Cap'n Crunch]

Ghost,
From the information that you've posted up and from the story I was heard about last weekend where fuel was gushing out of your tank, I'm wondering if you might have a problem with your fuel pressure regulator. I'm thinking that if your fuel pressure regulator was screwed up, it may allowing just enough gas to run at lower elevations, but when you get to a higher elevation, the loss in atmospheric pressure might cause the pressure regulator to constrict the fuel delivery even more and starve your bike of fuel to the injectors. On most vehicles the fuel pressure regulator regulates the amount to pressure fed to the injectors and then returns the excess pressure to the tank. But, if the regulator was clogged up or constricting fuel flow pass the regulartor, then you may have excess pressure built up between the fuel pump and the regulator. Then, once you turned off the bike (which turns off the pump) this excess pressure would push back past the pump into your tank. This (along with your pinched gas tank vent) would pressurize the tank. Also, you mentioned that the gas was boiling in your tank. This sounds like it was caused by the fuel pump working too hard and overheating which would be caused by the fuel pump not being able to push the fuel past the regulator. If you get your bike back, you may want to check the line between the pump and the regulator to make sure it's not kinked and if it looks ok, you may want to try replacing the regulator. Just a idea - thoughts anyone?

[Ghost]

Certainly can't hurt to check it out, especially since it's another possible explanation for the issue...


Ghost,
From the information that you've posted up and from the story I was heard about last weekend where fuel was gushing out of your tank, I'm wondering if you might have a problem with your fuel pressure regulator. Just a idea - thoughts anyone?

[Ghost]

Tech line wants to do a compression check and leak down test, then check the valves and then go from there if that doesn't show anything wrong.

Does this seem odd to anyone else?

Bike only has 2k miles on it, unless they are saying without saying that it might've come from the factory messed up...but I still don't see how that matches the issue I'm having.

[grim]

Tech line wants to do a compression check and leak down test, then check the valves and then go from there if that doesn't show anything wrong.

Does this seem odd to anyone else?

Bike only has 2k miles on it, unless they are saying without saying that it might've come from the factory messed up...but I still don't see how that matches the issue I'm having.

At what point will they say this bike is screwed and were going to lose money putting the work into it to fix it so lets give him a new bike?

[Ghost]

At what point will they say this bike is screwed and were going to lose money putting the work into it to fix it so lets give him a new bike?

Heh, hopefully soon, but in reality, probably never--or at least not until the cost of repairs exceeds the costs of replacing the bike...and that's still a ways to go...and then it'd be out of warranty and there's no Lemon Law so it'll just be my problem

Today, just about 10min ago, the CDS rep called me up to suggest I buy an extended warranty for this bike while it's still under warranty....so THAT's their big "solution"--don't fix it, just pay for an additional warranty for when it keeps F*ing up in the future :x

[grim]

Heh, hopefully soon, but in reality, probably never--or at least not until the cost of repairs exceeds the costs of replacing the bike...and that's still a ways to go...and then it'd be out of warranty and there's no Lemon Law so it'll just be my problem

Today, just about 10min ago, the CDS rep called me up to suggest I buy an extended warranty for this bike while it's still under warranty....so THAT's their big "solution"--don't fix it, just pay for an additional warranty for when it keeps F*ing up in the future :x

May be your best option at this point though! how much does a extended warranty run?

[Ghost]

May be your best option at this point though! how much does a extended warranty run?

Dealerships set the warranty retail price, and they vary based on what they cover and who provides it (OEM vs Aftermarket).

I could ask them when I bring the bike back in today (once I get a ride back figured out).

But, at a guess somewhere in the $1200-1500 range--which isn't in my budget nor is it an expense I should have to pay for a defective product.

When I worked for an OEM, they would often offer warranties for free as the first step to try to placate the consumer and keep the vehicle out of Buyback or Lemon Law proceedings (essentially eating the warranty at their cost which is *much* cheaper than retail).

So we'll see if they step up and offer to extend the warranty once I refuse to buy it--all pending the results of the tear down...

[grim]

Dealerships set the warranty retail price, and they vary based on what they cover and who provides it (OEM vs Aftermarket).

I could ask them when I bring the bike back in today (once I get a ride back figured out).

But, at a guess somewhere in the $1200-1500 range--which isn't in my budget nor is it an expense I should have to pay for a defective product.

When I worked for an OEM, they would often offer warranties for free as the first step to try to placate the consumer and keep the vehicle out of Buyback or Lemon Law proceedings (essentially eating the warranty at their cost which is *much* cheaper than retail).

So we'll see if they step up and offer to extend the warranty once I refuse to buy it--all pending the results of the tear down...

what a cluster fuck!!! where are you taking the bike? i caged it today so if your in the denver area i can hook you up w a ride.

[Ghost]

what a cluster fuck!!! where are you taking the bike? i caged it today so if your in the denver area i can hook you up w a ride.

Yep. Complete cluster...all revolving around everyone still trying to make a profit without solving the issue at hand...

I'm taking it to Fay, got a friend who's going to see if he can leave work early since he works nearby. Once I hear back from him I'll see if I need to take you up on that ride or not. Thanks man.

[salsashark]

Maybe it's time to park it out on the street overnight in Sheridan or Edgewater???

[grim]

Yep. Complete cluster...all revolving around everyone still trying to make a profit without solving the issue at hand...

I'm taking it to Fay, got a friend who's going to see if he can leave work early since he works nearby. Once I hear back from him I'll see if I need to take you up on that ride or not. Thanks man.

yea let me know i live near fay and that's my route home i get off work at 4:00 so itd be no big deal

[grim]

Maybe it's time to park it out on the street overnight in Sheridan or Edgewater???

He would have better luck at Del Mar!!!

[Ghost]

Maybe it's time to park it out on the street overnight in Sheridan or Edgewater???

Heh, I wish...though with my luck with this thing, the thief would probably have the same issue, abandon the bike, they'd recover it and I'd be stuck with a fucked-up and thrashed bike that doesn't want to run at altitude...


yea let me know i live near fay and that's my route home i get off work at 4:00 so itd be no big deal

Ok, I called in a favor, so it looks like I'm good for this round, but I'll let you know asap if the favor falls through. Thanks again for the offer man.

[grim]

Heh, I wish...though with my luck with this thing, the thief would probably have the same issue, abandon the bike, they'd recover it and I'd be stuck with a fucked-up and thrashed bike that doesn't want to run at altitude...



Ok, I called in a favor, so it looks like I'm good for this round, but I'll let you know asap if the favor falls through. Thanks again for the offer man.

NP

[Ricky]

Ghost: I sued Mitsubishi about a year ago for the same type of thing. While I was not within the terms of the lemon law, they fought the shit out of Mitsubishi, and got the matter resolved. The fact is, while motorcycles don't fall into the lemon law, they do fall under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and thus are required to fix your problem promptly. A lawyer could still demand that a manufacturer buy back the vehicle, or replace it with a new one. Just don't do what I did, and settle with prejudice. I settled with prejudice, then the problem happened again 8 months after settling, meaning I couldn't go after them for it.

I used these guys, and they worked on contingency and made Mitsubishi fix the problem after me bitching at them for 9 months.

www.AttorneysForConsumers.com
888-595-9111

[Ghost]

Ghost: I sued Mitsubishi about a year ago for the same type of thing. While I was not within the terms of the lemon law, they fought the shit out of Mitsubishi, and got the matter resolved. The fact is, while motorcycles don't fall into the lemon law, they do fall under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and thus are required to fix your problem promptly. A lawyer could still demand that a manufacturer buy back the vehicle, or replace it with a new one. Just don't do what I did, and settle with prejudice. I settled with prejudice, then the problem happened again 8 months after settling, meaning I couldn't go after them for it.

I used these guys, and they worked on contingency and made Mitsubishi fix the problem after me bitching at them for 9 months.

www.AttorneysForConsumers.com (http://www.AttorneysForConsumers.com)
888-595-9111


Thanks man, I'm hoping to avoid legal fees, but it may well come to that at this rate. And your point about settling with prejudice vs. without is a good warning. I think if I go this route I want the bike replaced and/or bought back, not just repaired.

I'll go peruse their site, thanks again.

[Ricky]

Thanks man, I'm hoping to avoid legal fees, but it may well come to that at this rate. And your point about settling with prejudice vs. without is a good warning. I think if I go this route I want the bike replaced and/or bought back, not just repaired.

I'll go peruse their site, thanks again.

no, no... they work on CONTINGENCY... meaning they get paid when you win. They won't take the case if they think they can't win.

While I can't divulge the full details of the settlement, their legal costs were about $2k, I got some cash for being without my car for 2 fucking months... we basically split the winnings. Not a penny out of my pocket.

[Ghost]

no, no... they work on CONTINGENCY... meaning they get paid when you win. They won't take the case if they think they can't win.

While I can't divulge the full details of the settlement, their legal costs were about $2k, I got some cash for being without my car for 2 fucking months... we basically split the winnings. Not a penny out of my pocket.

Gotcha, missed that, guess I'll at least contact them and see what they say...

[Ricky]

Gotcha, missed that, guess I'll at least contact them and see what they say...

For sure... even if it's a complete waste of time, at least you know where you stand. I was in your shows for months, and finally got tired of it. Legal action was my last option.

[Ghost]

For sure... even if it's a complete waste of time, at least you know where you stand. I was in your shows for months, and finally got tired of it. Legal action was my last option.

Looks like they're not interested in pursuing it as a Lemon/MM Warranty issue, though they did say they'd pass my info over to the consumer products side of things...

[Ghost]

Shop called, after the OEM Tech Line required them to do a compression test, leak-down, and valve inspection, they found nothing wrong--surprise!

I mean, that's like open heart surgery for a headache, not exactly a related issue. Tech Line kept claiming there might be "carbon build up" that was "causing issues at altitude".

Carbon build up? On a bike with 2,000 miles, really?

Seriously, who hires these Tech Line idiots?

Next stop: fuel pump

--which isn't the issue, as the condition is altitude-dependent. If the pump were failing it'd do it all the time, not just when I'm in the mountains on a hot day--my guess is still some sensor reading out of range.

I'd say it'd had a bad map, but they already swapped the ECU, so it's got to be something isn't reading/feeding info properly to the ECU...which, I'd guess, is a sensor of some kind...barometric pressure, O2, MAF/MAP whatever this thing has...