Lock up front tire? How common?

[ImolaFem]

Today I was commuting to work on I25 in DTC when a pickup truck put on his blinker and started to merge into my lane. He was ready to sideswipe me doing 65 MPH but then finally looked at me. When I was assured he wasn't going to be running me over I looked ahead again, just in time to see bright brake lights on the truck infront of me. I was about 10 yards away from the truck at this time and grabbed all sorts of front brake.

This caused my tire to lock up and squeal like crazy. I felt the rear of the bike lift off the ground and start to rotate to the right. I thought I was going to highside and be run over.....but finally I slowed down enough to let off the brake and the bike settled down just fine. I however, was not calm. I'd never done a stoppie on purpose before, much less at 65 mph on accident! Luckily my body reacted naturally and shifted weight to the back left of the bike when I felt it going right. I went from 65 to 15 mph in about 10 yards it seemed. I think my rear tire was in the air the whole time.

My question is , I just put on these tires a couple of weeks... Dunlop D220s and this is the 2nd time I've hit the front brake hard on the interstate and heard a squeal from the front tire. This never happened on my Pilot Sports before. Am I just feeling more confident and braking harder? Are these tires not gripping as well and thus squealing? Or was it two uncommon panic situations which caused this and I shouldn't worry about tire quality?

[ebazyl]

I guess it depends, I locked up a front tire during a race at Barber, so I guess it happens. Usually it is caused by grabbing the brakes in an unsmooth manner. Which might acually not slow you down as rapidly.

...glad you are aiiight though.

[Feathered upstart!]

It likely has to do with the new tire being more touring oriented. Meaning its harder for longer life and as I'msure your aware, the harder the compound of the tire the less mechanical grip it has. So this tire does not have the same level of grip that your old tires did. It take less force to cause it to slip.
I'm sure you'll get used to the new compound and develop a feel for the braking soon.
Its nothing to worry about really.

[Mista Black]

the 220 dont grip as well and therefore are more prone to slide. my bike has ABS and i activate it all the time on front (you can hear a nice chirping from the front when it's doing it). you did it right.

on my old bike (no ABS) i would intentionally lock up the front at stops if no one was around just to get used to the feel of it, so when i really needed to haul it down it wouldnt surprise me.

[ImolaFem]

Thanks Jeff. I think I'll be gettin used to locking it up more often. I was suprised at how comfortable my body felt while the bike was sliding and up on one wheel. If only my brain could be that calm too =)

[Anonymous]

When you decide that those 220's are shit, let me know. I have some sets of Pilot Powers in the garage right now you'd like. ;)

[Mista Black]

dont listen to ralph.... he's a dunlop basher :lol:

honestly i wish i could afford pilot powers or 208's, but they just dont last enough miles. i'm getting 6000 from the 220s and fairly happy about that. i doubt i'd get more than 3 from a set of real sport tires. and that's about 2 weeks (or less) riding this summer...

[Anonymous]

It's quite possible that, since you were in a panic situation, you didn't get off the gas (& let the front end settle) before grabbing the handful of front brake. This lightness (of the front end) could've caused the squealing until the forks compressed & the rubber heated up enough to grab & lock the wheel. Just a thought.

[RAGrote]

Sssssssscccaaaaaape... scrape, crack.....

The sounds you didn't hear. Good...

[Anonymous]

Consider yourself luck.
Don't follow so fucking close. ;) Your riding is writing checks that your skills aren't prepared to cash.

This Top Gun moment brought to you by RAGrote...

[R1chie]

The other option when it does not look like you can stop is to aim for the white line and ride between the cars or head for the shoulder. I had a similar situation, and I was headed down hill so the bike increased the breaking distance. I knew I could not stop so I rode the white line. Just another tool in the toolbox to avoid accidents. In traffic school this is called an escape route and should always be looked for in case you cannot stop.

[Desmo]

Consider yourself luck.
Don't follow so fucking close. ;) Your riding is writing checks that your skills aren't prepared to cash.

:shock: O shit that is fucking rude… if you have nothing nice or informative to say.. best to keep shut.. She just asked a question.. not for some smart ass comments..

[Desmo]

The other option when it does not look like you can stop is to aim for the white line and ride between the cars or head for the shoulder. I had a similar situation, and I was headed down hill so the bike increased the breaking distance. I knew I could not stop so I rode the white line. Just another tool in the toolbox to avoid accidents. In traffic school this is called an escape route and should always be looked for in case you cannot stop.

just dont do it when the white line is wet... or else your in for a nice slide :D

[ImolaFem]

It's quite possible that, since you were in a panic situation, you didn't get off the gas (& let the front end settle) before grabbing the handful of front brake. This lightness (of the front end) could've caused the squealing until the forks compressed & the rubber heated up enough to grab & lock the wheel. Just a thought.


That's possible, but I don't think that happened because the squealing occured until I got off the brake which would cause the weight to settle back to the rear. I think its just the grippiness of these tires vs what was on the bike before so I'll need to practice insanely fast stops like Jeff to get used to it.

Hell, I'll just start stunting so a stoppie is no big deal :P

[ImolaFem]

When you decide that those 220's are shit, let me know. I have some sets of Pilot Powers in the garage right now you'd like. ;)


Nah, I don't do track time on this bike, I don't need something that wears away in 3000 miles when I ride 140 miles a day at least :P

[RAGrote]

:shock: O shit that is fucking rude… if you have nothing nice or informative to say.. best to keep shut.. She just asked a question.. not for some smart ass comments..

Look ass wad... If somebody - like me - pulled some of you noobs aside and said "now you need to stop and think about WHY that happened and what YOU can do to prevent it in the future" more of you will be alive at the end of this year.
Unfortunately youth knows all.

If a person needs to use the brakes to the point of lock up they might want to truthfully evaluate the situation that caused that to happen and seriously think about how to avoid it in the future.

I'm glad she avoided catastrophe but I'll bet she doesn't know what caused it.

Rider error is indicated.

And telling her... Oh gosh, that a$$hole cut you off... oh man you poor girl, gosh why would anybody stop that quickly in front of you....
That isn't doing her a darn bit of good....

So if YOU have something to help her, then post it... otherwise - go play with your leggos.

[Mista Black]

Gosh!! can you feel the love?? i can feel the love!!

10 years ago, before it got over populated with yuppie scum, a friend and i used to go out to black forest and practice our HARD braking. we only ever got talked to by one cop about it. we weren't doing stoppies, but rather trying to stop as fast as we possibly could in a controlled environment. that one cop told us it was a damn good idea and we should carry on :lol:

it does help to be used to it and doing it (with practice or lots of close calls) is the only way to do it. and next time, dont give the guy a dirty look for quite so long. always keep one eye pointed to where you're headed.

yes yes i know i just said RA is right in that regard. pilot error was a factor here but she's IS trying to learn from her mistake, too, RA... give a little credit where it's due.

[~Barn~]

:spit:

Grote misspelled "Legos"

:lol: :lol:

Glad you are alright Imola. There's lots of conjecture we can add as to why this happened, but the main thing is that you don't find yourself in this spot too frequently.

And even though Grote's comment was void of any tact, it does have value. As much as you can, try and keep yourself in traffic "spots" where danger is minimized. Use the bikes acceleration capability to keep you in traffic zones where full-zoot braking will be unlikely.

And even better, practice that stuff when you're out on lonesome deserted streets sometime.

There is no replacement for "comfort", when having to do panic'esq riding.

[R1chie]

:shock: O shit that is fucking rude… if you have nothing nice or informative to say.. best to keep shut.. She just asked a question.. not for some smart ass comments..

Look ass wad... If somebody - like me - pulled some of you noobs aside and said "now you need to stop and think about WHY that happened and what YOU can do to prevent it in the future" more of you will be alive at the end of this year.
Unfortunately youth knows all.

If a person needs to use the brakes to the point of lock up they might want to truthfully evaluate the situation that caused that to happen and seriously think about how to avoid it in the future.

I'm glad she avoided catastrophe but I'll bet she doesn't know what caused it.

Rider error is indicated.

And telling her... Oh gosh, that a$$hole cut you off... oh man you poor girl, gosh why would anybody stop that quickly in front of you....
That isn't doing her a darn bit of good....

So if YOU have something to help her, then post it... otherwise - go play with your leggos.

I agree, the only real way to rear end someone is to be follow to close. She did not rear end the car so she was not too close. Giving more than 2 seconds in the 2 second rule is good advise.

Your comment is so rude and in the form of a personal attack and name calling that the person would not even consider what you had to say. If that was your intent, you were successful. If it was to effect change or help, you failed. Do you talk to your wife like this or are you already divorced :lol:

[R1chie]

I did not realize you called Desmo an "ass wad" so my question to you is when are you going to grow up and stop calling people names? This is not pre school. And if you are as old as you say you are then you should know better.

[ImolaFem]

Grote, I've never met you and maybe you're less of an asshole in person but that was extremely uncalled for. Obviously I ended up a lot closer than I wanted to be to the truck in front of me. Do I want to be that close to traffic going 65 mph down I25? Hell no. I ended up off my right line because I had to merge into the middle of the lane due to the pickup truck trying to sideswipe me so that out out was gone. I was watching the sideswiping pickup so I didn't see what I had on the left of me and when I looked forward I was a lot closer than I was before I looked away. Shit happens, you find yourself in tight spots. I'm plenty smart enough to know how to avoid them, but I'm not perfect.

I was more concerned about tire quality and braking feel than anything with this post. But everyone likes to tell their war stories, so there it is. Get over yourself and get that chip off your shoulder.

[Mista Black]

Shit happens, you find yourself in tight spots.

no no... WE find ourselves in tight spots... he's made it clear in previous posts that he's never, not even once, had an accident of ANY kind on a bike... and i'd assume that includes any dirt bikes he's ridden and parking lot drops and the like... he's obviously at a higher state of perfection than us mortals. :P

[Dysco]

My take on the whole thing may be different from most riders. I tend to move through traffic instead of with it. When somebody goes to cut me off, I get out of the way first and give dirty looks later or not at all.

If someone cuts me off and I have a few feet of clearance, I take their old spot if there are no other options. Riding the line is always an option but a better one is braking with less force, shifting to the side of the lane and moving alongside the vehicle in front of you. That way you can change lanes if the option exists and you get more pavement out of the deal. I'm pretty comfortable sitting a few feet from a bumper in moving traffic, though. Other riders have commented on it too many times to count- an indicator that my methods aren't for everyone- but the technique that works best for me is braking as little as possible and moving constantly to avoid prolonged exposure to "problem vehicles". (I've heard that this is a trait with ADD riders who wiggle a lot to stay focused)

That said, if you stayed upright and got home safely, you did a great job regardless of funny noises, bad technique or soiled undies. We ALL have 'oh shit' moments ALL the time where we could have done something better. The trick is to figure out what you did wrong and address that. You've done that and have decided you should practice panic stops- that's something we should all practice them- every time I get a new bike, the first thing I test is the stopping distance- there are marks all over my street from it. Adjusting to the bike and the tires is critical but so is lane choice, speed and awareness of your surroundings.

<edit to take out the war story feel ;) >
I have had tires whine before on the track but they were for different uses and sizes than what I had them on- I always figured that if they stuck to the pavement they were doing their job. I figure if you kept the bike up, noise or not, they worked fine. I would check tire pressure in the front, though. I have a ton of experience riding with tires that shouldn't have been on the road and I got around just fine. Don't worry about the noises- if they work, they work. If the noise freaks you out, go with a different tire.

[Feathered upstart!]

Don't mind RA, he is just dumber than a bag of hammers and loves to show it.

[Anonymous]

Now that everyone got their junior high flashback out of the way, please tone it down and play nice or the thread gets locked. If you're unsure why this is, go read the forum rules, specifically those pertaining to etiquette.

[ebazyl]

Consider yourself luck.
Don't follow so fucking close. ;) Your riding is writing checks that your skills aren't prepared to cash.

This Top Gun moment brought to you by RAGrote...

:yes: I would definetly recomend getting rid of the 220s you have on there, from what I heard both the Pilot Power Steet and the Dunlop 218 are very good tires. However Ralph had a smoking deal on the Powers for a while. :idea:

[ImolaFem]

:yes: I would definetly recomend getting rid of the 220s you have on there, from what I heard both the Pilot Power Steet and the Dunlop 218 are very good tires. However Ralph had a smoking deal on the Powers for a while. :idea:


No thanks, I'm keeping those. I'm not dropping $270-$300 on tires every 3 weeks this summer.

[Anonymous]

I still have two sets of the Powers for sale, available at my super special price. ;) They won't last quite as long as a full sport-touring tire, but you also never have to wonder if they're gonna stick or not. I did get 5k miles out of a set of Pilots last year (the old model) so you can make them last, if you mind your pressure. That included some track thrashing, and was on a liter twin. I don't know about longevity on the new model (Pilot Power) since I only use them on the track, but my guess is they would be as good or better.

[japrules]

Consider yourself luck.
Don't follow so fucking close. ;) Your riding is writing checks that your skills aren't prepared to cash.
:loser:

[ebazyl]

:yes: I would definetly recomend getting rid of the 220s you have on there, from what I heard both the Pilot Power Steet and the Dunlop 218 are very good tires. However Ralph had a smoking deal on the Powers for a while. :idea:


No thanks, I'm keeping those. I'm not dropping $270-$300 on tires every 3 weeks this summer.

Just a recommendation.. :D

[Anonymous]

It's quite possible that, since you were in a panic situation, you didn't get off the gas (&amp;amp; let the front end settle) before grabbing the handful of front brake. This lightness (of the front end) could've caused the squealing until the forks compressed &amp;amp; the rubber heated up enough to grab &amp;amp; lock the wheel. Just a thought.


That's possible, but I don't think that happened because the squealing occured until I got off the brake which would cause the weight to settle back to the rear. I think its just the grippiness of these tires vs what was on the bike before so I'll need to practice insanely fast stops like Jeff to get used to it.

Hell, I'll just start stunting so a stoppie is no big deal :P
Not saying it didn't happen, but I'm surprised that it was squealing AND causing you to stoppie at the same time. The two seem to contradict each other, even though I know for a fact that a front tire can be locked-up and sliding (don't recalll any squealing, though) with the rear wheel in the air - had a racer come flying by me with smoke pouring off the (locked) front tire and ass-end in the air. :shock:

BTW, glad you're okay. 8)

[trackaddict]

no no... WE find ourselves in tight spots... he's made it clear in previous posts that he's never, not even once, had an accident of ANY kind on a bike... and i'd assume that includes any dirt bikes he's ridden and parking lot drops and the like... he's obviously at a higher state of perfection than us mortals. quote from Mista Black.....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Now that everyone got their junior high flashback out of the way, please tone it down and play nice or the thread gets locked. If you're unsure why this is, go read the forum rules, specifically those pertaining to etiquette. to quote Ralph...ya kill me man

:lol: :lol: :lol:

i hate to admit it, but outside of being very embarrased for RA, and feeling guilty for laughing, this thread made me laugh just hard enough to make up for my crummy day at work.....thanks to all (except RA...please think before you write next time).

how about this instead...."sorry to hear about your close call imola, i was just thinking that maybe you should consider how close you may have been following the car in front of you......." might have been better recieved. :shock: :shock:

[Mel]

Ahh yes, the wonders of a tank slapper (or almost). No matter who you are, where you are, you will have a close call. Whether it be noticing someone to your side and not front, or whether it be the slow moving vehicle that gets in front of you when you have no where to go. It will happen, and with more experience you will be better equipped to handle the situation without that heart jumping think you are gonna pass out afterwards feeling. Experience just helps you deal with those moments, it can not help you avoid the assholes out there. You will probably also, with time and after things like this, learn to keep your eyes focused on two sets of events at once, and learn to really anticipate what cars will do (I drive my mom nuts in the car by pointing out when someone is about to do something stupid).

[Anonymous]

Who said anything about a tank slapper? :wtf:

Just wondering where that came from...

[Mel]

I said almost! :slap: stop making me think! How bout you tell us your skidding down I-25 stories!
:p

And it was an almost tank slapper...she said front locked, back off the ground and sliding to the right...that might have been the beginnings of a tank slapper.


Now stop being crabby and go, go...ummm....do whatever you do with yourself.

[Anonymous]

Except that tank slappers are generally caused by the front end lightening, as opposed to a massive frontal weight transfer with rear levitation (aka "stoppie"). :D

[Mel]

Oh, quit being technical on me! Talking all lightening and levitation and sh*t. Geeze, think you were some kind of expert or something!

[Anonymous]

No, I've just had tank slappers and accidental stoppies (while sliding down the interstate, coincidentally). :lol:

[RAGrote]

no no... WE find ourselves in tight spots... he's made it clear in previous posts that he's never, not even once, had an accident of ANY kind on a bike... :

Misquote noted.

Never said that.

[RAGrote]

SSSSSCCCCHPLAT!!!!

[RAGrote]

Kablaamo!!!

[Desmo]

Too many friends, too many deaths does that to you. Sorry if you all took it the wrong way.

RA, you should really let go of your anger.. look man I personally have had a good friend pass away (wearing full gear, leathers, etc.). I also have a cousin who severed his leg on a motorcycle accident (once again full gear). But that will not stop me from getting on a bike, we are all knowledgeable of the risk that comes with riding. I’m sure that 95% of the CSC members are smart about riding so you don’t have to keep reminding us about your troubled life… OK, OK we feel sorry for you, now get that chip off your shoulder.

RA, I see you feel very concerned and want to educate all riders, so why don’t you put up a bill board, buy some air time on the local TV channels, better yet spend time at the DMV and inform new riders about your concerns. Just be tactful man

BTW: what do type of bike do you ride? It would be very interesting to meet you, how old did you say you are, and how long you been riding? You seem to have so much knowledge maybe you should write a book or become a motorcycle safety course instructor.


---Imola, I think your new tires have a lot to do with it, you might just have to get used to the harder compound. Personally I would prefer to have traction and spend the extra money on tires than have an accident… Then again lots of cruisers then to ride on hard compound tires, so I guess it will just take some time to adjust...

[Mista Black]

traction smaction... i run 220s and have little trouble staying with riders running 208s/218, m-1's, dragons, pilots, etc. they are plenty sticky for road use (even really hard road use).... and i keep them at 42 rear, 40 front (PSI). :D

i agree with what was said above about sliding: if you're not then they're sticky enough. i'd rather have the milage and occasionally drift a little in a sweeper.

[RAGrote]

Poof....

BTW,
ImolaFem... I'm REALLY glad you got through this. I'm sure you've learned a bunch from it.
The 220's are a fine tire. 90% of the people on this list couldn't take them to their limit. That puts you in some rare company.
Be safe, be smart and live long to be an old smart ass.


This next postVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV is the best one yet.

[PharmerKyle]

Braking- Way too abrubt & too hard = no squeal and bike goes down. This is when you know you've really locked the front up. Slightly less abrupt and firm enough = stoppie. Squealing will happen, but you're not really locked up. Well done! This shows a decent amount of panic control and skill on its own. Too little squeeze, too late = an excuse to find an escape or a bumper.

Following- No one consciously counts seconds between bumper & fron tire as they are riding, but it will become second nature eventually. I find it best to not fixate on the vehicle immediately ahead and try to see at least 2-3 ahead in the same lane. "Surprise Brake Parties" are easier to cope with when you have this many points of reference that you're taking into account. Escape routes are handy, but police might see you swapping 3rds of a lane looking for one and decide that you're being too aggressive. The size of your bike might also be a factor on this one.

Compassion- There are many of us that are used to "tough love" and respond to the shock & awe of a good jab. Still others may require a gentle coaxing-in before the backhand. Some are ready for the CQA after an incident while others truly are looking for commiseration. It's hard to always guess correctly how someone will react to free advice on this forum and how many will display the "pack mentality" once first blood is drawn. This is why everyone should use the ignore function on me!

[Desmo]

[quote="RAGrote";p="209495"]And Desmo... take your pity and shove if up your ass... That's the kind of sh!t I'm talking about. Somebody opens up and shows a bit of themself and you come off with that SH!T - f*ck you!
quote]

:shock: Come on now sweetheart, was that really necessary? For a man who is so perfect and follows all the rules you should don’t follow the rules of this forum.. I’m sure it will be locked down in a few minuets ..
---just wanted to say thanks for the laugh… :lol: nice to see your true colors and the name calling was really cute and mature for a man your age… :slap:

BTW thanks for your 20 years of service.. must have been before they started teaching respect :down: … like I learned when I was in.

Once again thanks for the Laugh... :applause:

[Mista Black]

This is why everyone should use the ignore function on me!


what the?? damn i thought i already had you ignored... :lol:

[Anonymous]

Desmo & RAGrote,

I think the original issue (with RAGrote's first post in this thread) has been resolved & there's no need to beat a dead horse (or argue the fact that you both have drastically different ways of dealing with people). If you wish to continue your conversion in this fashion, please take it to PM.

8)

[Hoopty]

Imola- in the future may I suggest the use of a touring type compound for the rear tire, with a "sporty" tire up front. :D In general, you will wear out a rear quicker than you would a front tire, so using a softer tire up front should make them wear out at about the same time. This also gives you the benefit of having a grippy front tire that can take really hard braking without locking up. The reasons for locking up your front tire have already been stated (grabbing too much brake, too fast), but a better tire will be able to take more pressure faster without locking up. A general rule with tires is that you want your front as sticky, if not more so than your rear tire. When I was into high-mileage street riding, I used a BT010 front, BT020 rear and it was AWERSOME. The BT020 and D220 are very similar in life and traction, BTW.

Keep in mind for the future that if your front tire chirps from locking it up, ease off the brake momentarily without letting off of it completely. If you don't ease up, it will slide and you will be feeling pavement in a hurry. :shock: You should be able to lock the front in a stoppie and keep it up if you know what you're doing. Ask Bob about the St Patty's Day parade this year, I was having a bitch of a time keeping the front from locking up on cold pavement! :lol:

[Anonymous]

Hoopty has a good point. I also think Barn still has his Pilot Power front for sale on here (may have sold it, I don't know for sure). The profile is very similar to Dunlops, being a smooth round shape, so it'd likely work well. You can usually get two rears to one front, so it might be a good mix for you.

[Mista Black]

hmmmm never really concidered that. i may have to try it out. on my bike i get just about double the milage from the front as i do the rear even if all i do on the set if travel (no or very little twisties). a sport front might be a good idea :idea:

thanks hoopty for the advise :up:

[ImolaFem]

Just an update: I made it to work without my tires locking up, doing stoppies, wheelies, jesus's christs, highchairs, or any other type of stunt. No one cut me off or stopped unexpectedly when I wasn't looking today =)

I like Hoopty's sticky front tire advice too... I might do that when these tires are worn out. I just didn't like how my previous Pilots were so flat on the rear after my 70 mile each way commutes every day.

Thanks for the work time entertainment everyone!

[Hoopty]

You have no idea how many sets of tires I wore through before being enlightened about this particular combo for tires. :oops: :cussing: I highly suggest it for anyone that puts on a lot of street miles, but still wants their tires to stick when they need to. I even ran this combo on the track and it wasn't that bad at all. They definitely aren't race tires, but they held their own quite well, and I never had a complaint about them on the street. 8)

[KooLaid]

You have no idea how many sets of tires I wore through before being enlightened about this particular combo for tires. :oops: :cussing: I highly suggest it for anyone that puts on a lot of street miles, but still wants their tires to stick when they need to. I even ran this combo on the track and it wasn't that bad at all. They definitely aren't race tires, but they held their own quite well, and I never had a complaint about them on the street. 8)

Damn it Hoopty, I'm too lazy to go back and look at your recommendation in this 3 pages of garbled goo. So what's this hoopty secret you gotta share?

Ragrote, do you ride a green ZX-9r by any chance?

[RAGrote]

Ragrote, do you ride a green ZX-9r by any chance?

No. KATOOM - Orange.

[Hoopty]

Koolaid- I used a Bridgestone BT010 front, BT020 rear. Basically a sport-touring rear tire (like the D220) and a full on sport tire for the front. You get the traction of a sporty tire up front, and much better mileage out of the rear. Since rears normally wear out much quicker than fronts do, it makes an awesome combination.

[Turtle636]

My question is , I just put on these tires a couple of weeks... Dunlop D220s and this is the 2nd time I've hit the front brake hard on the interstate and heard a squeal from the front tire.

That squeal is you screaming. If it was anymore intense it would have been followed by you shitting your pants. :lol:

I grabed my front brake at about 50-55 mph a few weeks ago. I was going down a long country road, and my hat blew off and for some stupid reason i grabed it all and before i knew it my back tire was over my head. Scary feeling but when it's over you think holy shit that was badass. but i never want to do it again.

EDIT By the way i only read the first post. then replied and just noticed that this was on page 3.

[trackaddict]

no no... WE find ourselves in tight spots... he's made it clear in previous posts that he's never, not even once, had an accident of ANY kind on a bike... :

Misquote noted.

Never said that.

for the record---and shame on me for not figuring out how to put the quote in an actual quote box until now---i was quoting Mista Black when i wrote that.