Was I wrong?

[Sean]

Here's a situation that I encountered yesterday, and would like your honest opinion on. Sorry, it may be a long read.

I'm heading southbound on Broadway in Boulder, in the left lane, in my car. Traffic is only moving about 25 mph and I am about a car length (maybe a little less) from the vehicle in front of me.

There is a bus in the right lane, and it stops at the bus stop. A few cars are behind it. There is a motorcyclist three cars behind the bus. As I get up to where the motorcyclist is, he abruptly jots his left arm out and cuts right in front of me. I almost hit his rear tire because there is minimal space. I then proceed to honk my horn, he turns around and I flip him off. He returns the one-finger salute.

We both get into an open area and he slams on his brakes, slowing me and the traffic behind me down (even though there was no one in front of him), just to be a dick. I then wind up behind him at the stop light and he turns around and starts yelling at me. He saying, "why do I need to go so fast," "you should drive better" and then points to his eyes like I should look out more closely. I also return comments about cutting people off and being a jackass rider.

I think what actually made me mad, was the fact that I almost hit a motorcyclist. Was I over reacting? Should I be more patient or understanding if people want to do that stuff? Would it have been such a big deal if he would have just waived in apology? The reason I ask for your opinion, is because I am trying to become a less high-strung and less of a negative person. If I was wrong in my logic, I'd like to know and improve on it.

Stupid comments will be ignored. Thanks!

[Mother Goose]

Sounds like you were right to me. If I'm stuck behind a bus (obviously not paying attention that there's a bus that will probably stop soon), I'll wait until there's a large opening. He was the impatient one, and couldn't wait a couple cars to merge in safely.

BTW, sorry I flipped you off, but I was in a hurry and impatient. ;)

[MetaLord 9]

You got cut off in traffic. Regardless of whether it was a bike or a car, your reaction was right in line with the norm. People are dicks on bikes too.

Side note, it's one thing to slam on your brakes and scare the shit outta the guy behind you outta spite when you're in a car and can absorb a hit if the guy isn't paying attention. To do it on a bike is dumb because the guy not paying attention puts you at fault AND in the hospital.

[Sean]

He was the impatient one, and couldn't wait a couple cars to merge in safely.Very good point.


To do it on a bike is dumb because the guy not paying attention puts you at fault AND in the hospital.I don't think it does put the person in front at fault. The person in back would still be issued a ticket for following to close and not being unable to stop. At least, I'm pretty sure. But I agree 100% that it's the dumbest thing to do on a bike. :banghead: 500lb 1980's Honda cruiser verses my Isuzu Rodeo, is not battle that would favor the motorcyclist.

[PhL0aTeR]

leading a less negative lifestyle and riding in denver traffic. yeah, you are wrong. lol

all jokes aside, there are dicks everywhere, you happened to be following one who either didnt care that he almost cut you off, or didnt see how close he was. either way, he jumped the gun and went road rage when he got honked at, which is what most people do. personally i would have got off the bike when he was yelling at me and beat the fuck out of him. but these are reasons i avoid traffic like the plague.

so the bigger question is, is someone "wrong" for pointing out another's mistake? you are most likely fighting a losing battle as the dick that just cut you off is already driving offensively, it wont take much to take the offense from driving to road rage. It may not be wrong, but it might not be the best thing to do, either.

[Sean]

personally i would have got off the bike when he was yelling at me and beat the fuck out of him. but these are reasons i avoid traffic like the plague.A smart man knows his own limitations.


so the bigger question is, is someone "wrong" for pointing out another's mistake? Is your question, am I in the wrong for honking at him in the first place? That's interesting, and kind of what I'm wondering too. By me honking and then flipping him off, I perpetuated or possibly escalated the situation. I've never been much of a passive guy, but maybe it would be better if I learned to be one in these types of situations?

[OUTLAWD]

I had some ass clown do something similar...I was so pissed I was physically shaking...I was really entertaining the idea of beating the crap out of him.


but I think it has to do a certain amount with the perception of actions, I never use the horn unless it really warrants it, the "jersey state bird" however, flies freely. Driving with my dad a little while back, I flipped someone off, and he made a big deal that if someone flipped him off, it meant that they would be willing to have it out on the side of the road...while I don't get that butthurt over being flipped off, others might... but, I don't think I'd have an issue having words with someone I've flipped off either...maybe a chance to educate them in driving/riding/etc.

[Slo]

I don't think you were wrong at all. Not sure about you honking the horn, if it was a short, "your a dumbass" beep, or a long one. With you flipping him off, it could escalate things depending on who the other person is.

When I make a mistake, I usually wave and acknowledge my traffic mistake, but if someone blares their horn unusually long and then flips me off after I already acknowledged my mistake, then it turns into something more.

[Reyven]

A smart man knows his own limitations.

Is your question, am I in the wrong for honking at him in the first place? That's interesting, and kind of what I'm wondering too. By me honking and then flipping him off, I perpetuated or possibly escalated the situation. I've never been much of a passive guy, but maybe it would be better if I learned to be one in these types of situations?

I guess you can take this a couple of different ways. Is it perpetuating the situation at hand? Yes. Did your reaction to his action cause more drama? Yes.

But, on the other hand. Did you let him know that you thought he was in the wrong. Yes. Did he think he was in the wrong? Apparently not. But maybe he will think twice about pulling out with so little space next time. Maybe not.

I personally don't like when people just dart out from standstill, or near standstill into the safe space I was leaving for myself (in case traffic stops quickly or other random acts of stupid). That's what you get for not being an ass in the first place and sitting on the guy's bumper in front of you. If you had been, there wouldnt even have been space for the motorcycle to jump in to. And at that point you are possibly pissing off the guy in front of you. So, either way, someone thinks you're a jerk.

[McVaaahhh]

If you were on the bike, I woulda run you over. :D

I think you were right. A jackass driver is a jackass whether he's a fellow rider or not. I personally don't have any problems letting someone know they're being stupid on the road and it only gets worse when I'm on the bike cause I get more pissed off if I almost get in a wreck because of someone's driving.

[Sean]

but I think it has to do a certain amount with the perception of actions, I never use the horn unless it really warrants it, the "jersey state bird" however, flies freely.I'm the same way. Although on the bike I tend to use it more, you know, cause people don't see us and try to kills us.


I don't think you were wrong at all. Not sure about you honking the horn, if it was a short, "your a dumbass" beep, or a long one. With you flipping him off, it could escalate things depending on who the other person is.

When I make a mistake, I usually wave and acknowledge my traffic mistake, but if someone blares their horn unusually long and then flips me off after I already acknowledged my mistake, then it turns into something more.It was a shorter honk. Not a tap, but a short honk. And I agree with you, if I would have cut someone off (and I have) I always wave, even if it's the long blaring horn at me (which I don't think I've gotten since I was an invincible noob). And if I did get the long horn, I got the hell out of there asap so I wouldn't cause anymore trouble. I didn't stay in front of the guy and slam on my brakes.


I personally don't like when people just dart out from standstill, or near standstill into the safe space I was leaving for myself (in case traffic stops quickly or other random acts of stpud). That's what you get for not being an ass in the first place and sitting on the guy's bumper in front of you. If you had been, there wouldnt even have been space for the motorcycle to jump in to. And at that point you are possibly pissing off the guy in front of you. So, either way, someone thinks you're a jerk.
If there had been enough room, I probably would have cared less. But if my bumper is almost getting intimate with his rear tire, that's a big problem.


If you were on the bike, I woulda run you over. :DBut that's because you know me. It has nothing to do with the situation. :slap:


A jackass driver is a jackass whether he's a fellow rider or not.Another good point. Maybe I took it more personally because he was on a bike, and feel strongly about motorcycle etiquette and safety?

[salsashark]

Another good point. Maybe I took it more personally because he was on a bike, and feel strongly about motorcycle etiquette and safety?

key point here... I think it's tough to see other riders do something that could be construed as negative toward the community. Whether it's speeding, stunting, bar hopping, no/minimal gear, whatever... pick your poison.

That being said, you/me/everyone on this board has at one time or another done something that will be deemed stupid or dangerous by other riders. That's life.

In the end, you can't change their behavior with a honk or finger, only they can do that for themselves. Just hope it's before natural selection removes them from the gene pool.


All that said, when the light turns green and those three cars run the red arrow right in front of you, do you ever get the urge just to floor it and take one of those mother's out?! I've on occasion rolled out into the intersection, then laid on the horn in the truck (cause the mustang's horn sucks and the bike wouldn't make a difference) just to remind them that: A. I'm bigger then you, and B. You're an asshole!

[PhL0aTeR]

Is your question, am I in the wrong for honking at him in the first place? That's interesting, and kind of what I'm wondering too. By me honking and then flipping him off, I perpetuated or possibly escalated the situation. I've never been much of a passive guy, but maybe it would be better if I learned to be one in these types of situations?


yeah, thats kinda where i was going with that. the old saying "pick and choose your battles" rings true in these cases. In traffic, there just isnt enough time to adequately "prove your case" so to speak, and even if there was, some people put on their offensive when they get behind the wheel anyway, so ANY confrontation will be met with everything except reason.

Far be it from me to say u were wrong for honking. the last time i got a ticket was for careless driving because i pulled someone over on highway 24 for cutting me off, and then brake checking me in the passing lane... So I have to either do/say absolutely nothing or see it to the end, so i have to ask myself if its worth seeing it to the end.

At any rate, no, you werent technically wrong for honking, your horn is there to warn other drivers of your presence in case they are driving unsafely or unaware of your presence, or to gain attention from your buddy who just walked out of kinko's.

Was it the 2nd action in a line of escalated actions? Did you accomplish what you set out to accomplish? Was it worth it?

YMMV

[BlueRanger]

It depends what kind of bus it was. Was is short?

[Sean]

key point here... I think it's tough to see other riders do something that could be construed as negative toward the community. Whether it's speeding, stunting, bar hopping, no/minimal gear, whatever... pick your poison.

...Just hope it's before natural selection removes them from the gene pool.And this was one of the biggest problems. I didn't want to say anything earlier, because it would automatically draw a certain response, but the only gear he had on was a pair of sunglasses. One of the comments I yelled to him was, "if you're going to do stupid shit, wear some gear." I'm not going to get all preachy about atgatt, but I feel like his t-shirt and sunglasses did perpetuate my frustration with the situation.


some people put on their offensive when they get behind the wheel anyway, so ANY confrontation will be met with everything except reason. True. And I've been this person for a long time. I always assumed my logic was the correct logic. That's why I'm trying to change and relax a little.


Was it the 2nd action in a line of escalated actions? Did you accomplish what you set out to accomplish? Was it worth it? Yeah man, that's what I'm trying to figure out. :up:

[rybo]

As a general rule I think that flipping people off and yelling invites the same in return. No one (especially anyone classified as "male") likes to be seen as weak, so when you flip him off, you invite the same in return.

Traffic sucks - people get impatient - all of it has some stress involved. That only compounds when there is a seemingly "personal" attack on top of it.

I hate traffic, so I live in a place where the biggest traffic jam occurrs when the local cows get out and take a wander across the road. When I'm in traffic I've tried to consider the "bad molecule" theory (my theory, so it's entirely possible that you all will find it lame). That is that traffic is a study in fluid dynamics - in this world turbulence is bad. The cars, busses and bikes are all molecules in the "flow" of the fluid called traffic. When one of those molecules misbehaves - changing lanes abruptly, stopping short etc. that is a "bad" molecule and causes turbulence that slows EVERY other molecule in the stream down. If everyone selected and stayed in their lane, then flow would generally work better for everyone. When this isn't possible (changing lanes for your exit for example) then one other car, slowing slightly to make a gap, maintains the best possible flow.

So I try to maintain the flow when I'm in traffic. If someone needs the spot in front of me I slow slightly and make a gap for them. I wave "hello" instead of "F- YOU" and generally get a friendly wave in return.

Right wrong or indifferent....it makes my drive less stressful.

s

[mdub]

be more patient or understanding if people want to do that stuff?

dude....unless someone puts a hand on you.....

like the saying goes......life is short to be angry. Its hard not to be. But you will feel better not being perturb. People are jerks. You just have to be the better.

[salsashark]

I think you should go out like Kevin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlzoL-wQwio

[Sean]

As a general rule I think that flipping people off and yelling invites the same in return. No one (especially anyone classified as "male") likes to be seen as weak, so when you flip him off, you invite the same in return.

"bad molecule" theory (my theory, so it's entirely possible that you all will find it lame). Good point on the weakness thing. That makes sense and I can def relate. As for the theory, I can see that too. It's a very zen/karma way of approaching it through the eyes of "Rybo science". Positive thoughts yield positive results?



like the saying goes......life is short to be angry. Its hard not to be. But you will feel better not being perturb. People are jerks. You just have to be the better.And maybe that's what it come down to, not being a passive person, but being the better person.

[Penadam]

I find the most satisfying thing to do when someone flips you off is either smile and wave back or blow them a kiss. It manages to piss them off way more than if you just return the bird. Especially satisfying if executed while passing someone; Preferable while on a bike in a corner.

[Nooch]

We both get into an open area and he slams on his brakes, slowing me and the traffic behind me down (even though there was no one in front of him), just to be a dick.

Ive had this happen to me alot and admittedly, Ive done it a time or two as well. But on a bike? You must have a death wish to brake-check a cage.

Long story short, I dont think you were wrong at all. I did the same thing to a guy 2 days ago. I jumped lanes at the last possible second and I knew I was cutting off the guy in the next lane, but I immediately turned and signalled an apology and then merged back into the right lane so he could pass. As he passed, he didnt flip me off but threw his hand up at me like "WTF!!!" I didnt respond. I knew I was in the wrong for cutting him off. Probably scared the crap out of him. I know I wouldnt relish the idea of running over a biker, even if it WAS their fault.

[Vellos]

It takes some talent to get stuck behind a bus in Boulder, so that's where you went wrong.

Regardless of what the guy did you didn't have to express any anger to him. Stupid people do stupid things and if you provoke them they're likely to do more stupid things. I used to frequent people with the finger on the highway when I had to pass them on the right, but only if they had plenty of space and time to get over. Now I'll do alternative non-offensive gestures that still amends my frustration.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

As a general rule I think that flipping people off and yelling invites the same in return. No one (especially anyone classified as "male") likes to be seen as weak, so when you flip him off, you invite the same in return.

Traffic sucks - people get impatient - all of it has some stress involved. That only compounds when there is a seemingly "personal" attack on top of it.

I hate traffic, so I live in a place where the biggest traffic jam occurrs when the local cows get out and take a wander across the road. When I'm in traffic I've tried to consider the "bad molecule" theory (my theory, so it's entirely possible that you all will find it lame). That is that traffic is a study in fluid dynamics - in this world turbulence is bad. The cars, busses and bikes are all molecules in the "flow" of the fluid called traffic. When one of those molecules misbehaves - changing lanes abruptly, stopping short etc. that is a "bad" molecule and causes turbulence that slows EVERY other molecule in the stream down. If everyone selected and stayed in their lane, then flow would generally work better for everyone. When this isn't possible (changing lanes for your exit for example) then one other car, slowing slightly to make a gap, maintains the best possible flow.

So I try to maintain the flow when I'm in traffic. If someone needs the spot in front of me I slow slightly and make a gap for them. I wave "hello" instead of "F- YOU" and generally get a friendly wave in return.

Right wrong or indifferent....it makes my drive less stressful.

s
Excellent write-up, I totally agree on the "molecule theory". You're quoting computational fluid-flow dynamics, basically, but it rings true. Taken further, when people start doing stupid stuff, there's an accumulation of reaction times that further hose traffic up, especially if some idiot further back isn't paying attention and slams into th eperson in front of him. How many times have you come upon a rear-ender accident further back from the accident that caused it all?

In short, ya shoulda just made the clown a hood ornament! :) (kidding....)

[ipuck]

I don't think you were wrong. It sounds to me like you were behind a newbie who had a little to much fear while riding and you were the closest person for venting.
I don't think you should play chicken with cars and bikers by grabbing your breaks and stopping traffic. That is a good way to loose your bike.

[Sean]

Cool, thanks for the thoughts everybody. You've all help me come to the realization that everyone else is a jerk and I'm awesome. Exactly what I thought! :up:

Seriously, as I said before, I am trying to be more positive in my life and it's actions. With a little outsider assistance I can clearly see that I wasn't completely off-base, but could have been more of a positive person in the experience. Next time I'll do a little honk and let it go, whatever the reaction is. Because it's really not worth upsetting my day, for that jackass (to quote McVaaahhh). It's 20 hours later, that guy should not even be a thought in my head. Next time, he won't be. And next time, hopefully he won't pull out in front of a car, they might not be paying attention.

And also, congrats to the CSC on having a good conversation with minimal useless/bullshit posts. I'm shocked! :shocked:

[Nooch]

And also, congrats to the CSC on having a good conversation with minimal useless/bullshit posts. I'm shocked! :shocked:

Way to jinx it! :down: ;)

[Ricky]

Generally, I know how much space I have to get in front of a car. Sometimes I think cagers react too soon and think I was just about to hit them. I've been cut off many times by many people on motorcycles, when I'm in my car. But I only honk when I actually have to react to their choice by braking. If they jump out in front of me, and don't make me change what I'm doing, I don't give a fuck. If I have to react to it, then I honk. If the rider decides to challenge me on that, I'll simply cut them off the same way they did me, if I have the chance, and it doesn't cause other people problems. Otherwise, I just let it go. If I'm the guy on the bike, and I get honked at, I just ignore it. Come to think of it, I ignore pretty much everything every cager ever says to me. If someone is pissed off about something I did, I twist my right wrist, and get away from them. If they do something to me, that's when I make a deal about it.

The big thing is though, the next time you find yourself in that situation, and the other person is all pissed off. Approach that person with your thoughts, in a calm, cool, collected manner. Many people become confused, and don't know how to respond to that kind of attitude. If they get pissed off, just smile and wave. You succeeded and got your point across. I do this with cops I see at random. I ask them how the revenue generation business is going, and they get super pissed and retaliatory. Meanwhile, I'm this cool collected attitude that knows I've broken no laws, meanwhile the power trip cop can't figure out how to react because he's so pissed off because I fail to respect police officers.

Either way, if he really almost hit your vehicle, then you were in the right. If you were just embellishing the story about how close he came to hitting you, then you aren't. I had a guy chase me down once until we both called police, because he swore I actually hit his vehicle when I changed lanes in front of him. After close inspection by several police officers, there was no damage anywhere, of any kind, on either vehicle. I didn't even come close to this guy. He was just being a dick fuck trying to show everyone his balls.

[Sean]

If you were just embellishing the story about how close he came to hitting you, then you aren't.No, no exaggeration. I had to hit my brakes hard after he pulled out in front of me.

[Zanatos]

I try to be Zen but alert when I'm driving or riding. I see a million people do a million different stupid things, but there's nothing I can do to change them. Plus, a lot of folks are so damned stupid that it wouldn't do any good to try and educate them anyway - so I try to just let things slide. The exception to the rule is when people do things that put me or others in danger.

I'm also leery about honking too much or giving the one-finger salute since a lot of road ragers have started packing guns.

The brake-check bullshit was how road rager Jason Reynolds killed two people on E470 and got sentenced to life with no parole. Link: http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5040978

Bottom line: The rider was a jackass who will probably crash and burn if he keeps riding like a moron. Maybe then he will learn a lesson.

[Nick_Ninja]

You are lucky he pointed to his eyes with his fingers rather than point a GUN at your head. Read your post again. Who was the first person to escalate the incident?

[Sean]

Who was the first person to escalate the incident?I was, which is what I learned from this thread.