Kids' Xmas Wishes...for heat...and jobs?

[Ghost]

Nice and depressing:


Connaghan recalled the night he and other Santas took some needy children shopping. One boy wanted to buy toilet paper because his mother was taking napkins and paper towels from a fast food restaurant for toilet paper.
"He wanted to buy her real toilet paper — a common, everyday item that we all take for granted," Connaghan said. "And this child is thinking this is a Christmas gift."

Holden has had children ask for things like heat at home. He'll tell the child Santa will do what he can, then try to let the parents know about agencies that might help.

One child returned a year later and "said she wanted to thank Santa for getting her some help when they didn't have food or a place to stay." Someone had overheard the conversation with Santa and helped the family.
http://news.yahoo.com/santa-finds-kids-giving-shorter-lists-recession-194256833.html

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Nice and depressing:

http://news.yahoo.com/santa-finds-kids-giving-shorter-lists-recession-194256833.html
Welcome to "Change"! ;)

[~Barn~]

A favorite off this album... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZQQYbRAEjI)

Lyrics... (http://rapgenius.com/Nas-count-your-blessings-lyrics)

[Ghost]

Welcome to "Change"! ;)

Most of this current disaster was set in motion by the previous administration, it didn't just happen the minute Obama was sworn in. Remember when we had a surplus? Hint--it wasn't under Bush.

And if you think the situation of the poor/"middle class" matters to the Republicans, you're out of touch with reality.

[Ghost]

A favorite off this album... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZQQYbRAEjI)

Lyrics... (http://rapgenius.com/Nas-count-your-blessings-lyrics)

Damian Marley is one of Bob Marley's kids, isn't he?

[Nick_Ninja]

Most of this current disaster was set in motion by the previous administration, it didn't just happen the minute Obama was sworn in. Remember when we had a surplus? Hint--it wasn't under Bush.

And if you think the situation of the poor/"middle class" matters to the Republicans, you're out of touch with reality.

That's a fact and C_M doesn't use facts in his political thought process.

[~Barn~]

Damian Marley is one of Bob Marley's kids, isn't he?
Yes Indeed. Jr. Gong.

[Rhino]

I've seen a lot of people on here post about their "back in the day" about .gov cheese and the likes.

I grew up "poor". It makes me appreciate the things that I work for and have. I hope this is a reality inducing event for the generations behind mine, including the OWS slugs. I hope the kids take a sense of appreciation for what they have.

The other day I put in a furnace for a couple that had lived through the "real" depression. Uphill both ways in the snow didn't begin to cover it.

Every generation wants better for their kids, but the last few have done it on credit, and the bills coming due...

[Darth Do'Urden]

Every generation wants better for their kids, but the last few have done it on credit, and the bills coming due...

Ding-friggin'-ding. Nothin' to do with government surplus or the lack thereof. It has to do with individual responsibility.

I'm not suggesting that every parent that can't afford toilet paper or heat is a low-life debt-ridden self-entitled prick. But I would be willing to bet the majority IS due to debt.

All that being said, the poor and needy have always been with us, regardless of the administration in office.

[stubbicatt]

I guess I look at the macro on this issue, and take exception to a system where so few have so much and so many are really in want.

The myth of the "worth ethic" is deficient on on many levels. If this is capitalism, then I take exception to it.

Personally, I think the inheritance laws should be revised so that only 10 million dollars of a decedent's estate may be bequeathed or transferred, the remainder to either escheat or otherwise be made available to the rest of people.

Capital gains tax break is particularly offensive to me, especially when the statistics establish that something like 1/10 of a percent of "taxpayers" use up over 90 percent of this form of largesse. Why in the world should the working man be taxed on 100 percent of his income, and the investor be taxed on only a relatively small percentage of his?

Inherently unfair IMO.

[Ghost]

That's a fact and C_M doesn't use facts in his political thought process.

The scary implication is that there is a "thought process" involved, I assumed it was just rabid muscle-memory auto-reply.


Yes Indeed. Jr. Gong.

Awesome.


I guess I look at the macro on this issue, and take exception to a system where so few have so much and so many are really in want.

The myth of the "worth ethic" is deficient on on many levels. If this is capitalism, then I take exception to it.

Personally, I think the inheritance laws should be revised so that only 10 million dollars of a decedent's estate may be bequeathed or transferred, the remainder to either escheat or otherwise be made available to the rest of people.

Capital gains tax break is particularly offensive to me, especially when the statistics establish that something like 1/10 of a percent of "taxpayers" use up over 90 percent of this form of largesse. Why in the world should the working man be taxed on 100 percent of his income, and the investor be taxed on only a relatively small percentage of his?

Inherently unfair IMO.

I agree, but that labels us both Socialists and Heretics and Anti-Capitalists--Oh, the Horror, the Horror...

Fwiw, the (lack of a) "work ethic" notion is a bullshit excuse bandied about by the rich to malign the poor--rich where most of them inherited their wealth and/or got lucky.

And then, since it's an easy soundbite to swallow, and it alleviates the guilt of shitting on your fellow man (since they "deserve it" and aren't simply born into it due to a system that privileges the few at the cost of the many--including the "middle class") those who are closer to "the poor" than they'd comfortably like to believe pick it up and run with it, and it becomes "a fact" that everyone who's poor is lazy and out to steal the money of the rich and/or be a burden on the middle class. (Except, of course, for some token example used to show that not all poor all evil, greedy leeches, [only most of them]).

Yes, Bill Gates/Steve jobs, bring up the poster children--you realize there are 6.841 BILLION people in this world, and *2* of them made it to the top tier by just happening to have the right products at the right times for the world to embrace them? Your odds of winning the lottery are higher than your odds of duplicating their luck. For most, if you're born poor, it and the lack of opportunities it carries with it will conspire to keep you poor. There are always exceptions, those few who make it out, but look to statistics, look at the overall picture, and the vast majority don't even come close.

You really think the person working 3 part-time jobs just to keep her family from starving is lazy? Really? The arrogance of the "middle class" and its disdain for those "below" them is really only a means to reinforce their own sense of self-worth, and to create a mental distance from the predicament of the poor and their own precarious status "above" them--if most middle classers lost their jobs, they'd soon be in the same class of people that they comfortably snubbed before.


This whole notion that everyone who's poor is there on purpose or there because they're lazy is just turning an easily blinded eye on the real situation.

But, it's always easier to believe and less cognitively challenging to hold that 99% are lazy and 1% are hard workers and somehow ignore the facts that this world/system is inherently unbalanced, and the imbalance is only going to continue growing since the system is designed to work that way.

But, instead of inspiring some level of compassion, or some level of disgust at a system that creates these gaps and holds fellow citizens to levels not seen outside of the 3rd World, we get all uppity and talk about how "If they'd only work harder" or "They brought it on themselves" while they're thinking that a fucking roll of toilet paper is a goddamn Christmas gift? Seriously?

Merry Fucking Commercialized Capitalized Christmas to you! Enjoy the holiday spirit as you wipe your ass and be thankful you're not stealing wood-chip-grade industrial TP from McD's this holiday season.

[modette99]

Most of this current disaster was set in motion by the previous administration, it didn't just happen the minute Obama was sworn in. Remember when we had a surplus? Hint--it wasn't under Bush.

And if you think the situation of the poor/"middle class" matters to the Republicans, you're out of touch with reality.

Yep, same goes when Clinton rode the good times, things were set in motion by Bush Sr.

Political Science 101, rare what bills are passed are noticed in that term of office. Most take time, have start dates blah blah blah....

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

That's a fact and C_M doesn't use facts in his political thought process.
There was a trend starting even before W took office, but the real nosedive started under ObaMao. How many people here have gotten laid off under ObaMao vs. W? Hint: a shitload more. When is ObaMao going to finally be held accountable for the economy that we have had under his admin? Also, if I remember correctly, it was the Dems that wanted to make sure people who absolutely did not have even close to the financial means to buy a house got one, hence all the bad loans, hence the crash. In fact, I remember recently ObaMao send Eric Holder after "racist" banks because they gave a larger proportion of loans to people (who just hapened to be other than black and hispanic) who could actually *Gasp!* pay for them.

I'm brown, and I can't afford a house, but I ain't gonna go cry racism about it. I's purely a financial deal. Period.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Yep, same goes when Clinton rode the good times, things were set in motion by Bush Sr.

Political Science 101, rare what bills are passed are noticed in that term of office. Most take time, have start dates blah blah blah....
There is some "momentum" set by the previous admin in all presidencies, but the radical drop in the economy has happened under ObaMao.

[Nick_Ninja]

There was a trend starting even before W took office, but the real nosedive started under ObaMao. How many people here have gotten laid off under ObaMao vs. W? Hint: a shitload more. When is ObaMao going to finally be held accountable for the economy that we have had under his admin?

It started many years prior to the O-man getting into the oval office Frank. The GOP is clearly to blame for corporate outsourcing and running the deficit up.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

It started many years prior to the O-man getting into the oval office Frank. The GOP is clearly to blame for corporate outsourcing and running the deficit up.
The GOP, really? How so? They're not behind all the social programs like making sure people who can;t afford them get loans.....that they default on.

Can you deny all the jobless people here that happened under 'Mao vs. the ones under W?

[~Barn~]

Does anybody else feel like the CSC is a "social program" for Frank to vent his unrelenting frustrations?

Now I almost feel like I shouldn't have voted for Obama!
:D

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Does anybody else feel like the CSC is a "social program" for Frank to vent his unrelenting frustrations?

Now I almost feel like I shouldn't have voted for Obama!
:D
Mission (almost) accomplished!:D

[Ghost]

Does anybody else feel like the CSC is a "social program" for Frank to vent his unrelenting frustrations?

Now I almost feel like I shouldn't have voted for Obama!
:D

Yes.

But you'd have to--just to give CM something to bitch about...

[Nick_Ninja]

When I deal with Frank I have this uncontrolable urge to put on some Simple Minds in the iPod.

[Clovis]

Personally, I think the inheritance laws should be revised so that only 10 million dollars of a decedent's estate may be bequeathed or transferred, the remainder to either escheat or otherwise be made available to the rest of people.

So if you're successful in business and live well below your means (as you would have to in order to have over $10MM in excess when you die), instead of passing that on to the next generation of your family, it should confiscated (read: stolen) by the government? You think it would go the people but in reality it would just go into the black hole that is government spending.




Capital gains tax break is particularly offensive to me, especially when the statistics establish that something like 1/10 of a percent of "taxpayers" use up over 90 percent of this form of largesse. Why in the world should the working man be taxed on 100 percent of his income, and the investor be taxed on only a relatively small percentage of his?

Inherently unfair IMO.

I agree with you here and I'm an investment guy. 15% tax on long-term capital gains is unfair when earned income (read: the income from your job) is taxed at "ordinary income" rates. The reasoning behind the lower tax though is that it encourages people to invest in companies which in turn helps the economy overall. Any investment is risky, especially stock. You're taking the risk of losing all of your money invested. If your call is right and it pays off, the government takes 15% (as long as you held it for more then a year -- less then a year is a short term capital gain and taxed at ordinary income rates). If you lose, then you can write off the capital loss.

For the most part its fair, all though people have been known to intentionally trigger a large capital loss to reduce their taxes.

[Clovis]

Even other democrats are stating the obvious. Obama's presidency is a failed presidency. The best thing he could do for America is halt his re-election campaign and allow Hilary to run. If Obama truly loved this country, he would admit to his short comings and clear the way for a competent leader. (And I don't even like Hillary but she would be a better alternative to Obama). But Obama doesn't love America so that will never happen.

Whoever the GOP nominates next year will only have to ask the American voters one question. The same question Reagan asked before he defeated Carter (aka Obama v1.0).

"Next Tuesday all of you will go to the polls, will stand there in the polling place and make a decision. I think when you make that decision, it might be well if you would ask yourself, are you better off than you were four years ago?

Is it easier for you to go and buy things in the stores than it was four years ago?

Is there more or less unemployment in the country than there was four years ago?

Is America as respected throughout the world as it was? Do you feel that our security is as safe, that we're as strong as we were four years ago?

And if you answer all of those questions yes, why then, I think your choice is very obvious as to whom you will vote for. If you don't agree, if you don't think that this course that we've been on for the last four years is what you would like to see us follow for the next four, then I could suggest another choice that you have."


It started many years prior to the O-man getting into the oval office Frank. The GOP is clearly to blame for corporate outsourcing and running the deficit up.

[Nick_Ninja]

<snip>Whoever the GOP nominates next year will only have to ask the American voters one question<snip>


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/opinion/send-in-the-clueless.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share

[~Barn~]

I don't know if the post was serious or if the sarcasm was missing me Clovis, but if I may lay it on thick for a moment, I'm sure you're right that Mr. Obama doesn't love Americans or America. Considering his multinational background, the opportunites this country afforded him, and the unique upbringing and his later successes he had in life; I can't imagine him having much affection for the USA.

He was clearly showing his lack of "true love" for this country, when he put US Navy ships into a situation to save American citizens who had been hijacked by pirates off of the African coast, ordering the taking of lives in the process... What a letdown that ended up being for his patriotism, huh!? Or how about.... How about when he was working all those years, with those who would eventually orchestrate the attack and later "elimination" of Mr. Bin Ladin. He really should have been spending more time making sure he always had his Stars & Stripes lapel pin on!

Success and "failure" are measured in many different ways, and most certainly with varied prospectives, so I guess I'll save that thought of yours for another time, but yeah... It's pretty much undeniable that you must be right about him not loving America.

[Clovis]

If Obama loved America he would preach about American Exceptionalism (i.e. that America is in fact a special country) and not flying around the world apologizing for America's successes.

I know that the GOP is not perfect by any means. Republican candidates only behave like republicans while their campaigning. As soon as they go into office they fall somewhere in the middle because in Washington you can't get things done by being straight right or straight left.

I do like Newt's ideal (all though not an original one) that today's young generation should have the option of opting out of social security and contributing to a private retirement fund similar to a 401k instead. Social security in it's current form meets the definition of a ponzi scheme.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

When I deal with Frank I have this uncontrolable urge to put on some Simple Minds in the iPod.
When I deal with Jeff, I have to resist the urge to put on some George Michael......:lol: :)

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Even other democrats are stating the obvious. Obama's presidency is a failed presidency.Whoever the GOP nominates next year will only have to ask the American voters one question. The same question Reagan asked before he defeated Carter (aka Obama v1.0).

"Next Tuesday all of you will go to the polls, will stand there in the polling place and make a decision. I think when you make that decision, it might be well if you would ask yourself, are you better off than you were four years ago?

Is it easier for you to go and buy things in the stores than it was four years ago?

Is there more or less unemployment in the country than there was four years ago?

Is America as respected throughout the world as it was? Do you feel that our security is as safe, that we're as strong as we were four years ago?

And if you answer all of those questions yes, why then, I think your choice is very obvious as to whom you will vote for. If you don't agree, if you don't think that this course that we've been on for the last four years is what you would like to see us follow for the next four, then I could suggest another choice that you have."
The answer is: HELL no. Like it or not, each president must take accountability for what happens WHILE he's in office, not blame everything on the previous admin. He's supposed to be "Commander in Chief", and that means personal responsibility. Blahblahblah the economy was in a slight downward trend, but not the precipitous drop since that ass-clown too office. Like I said, just look at all the people here who've lost their jobs undeer his watch vs. under W. Anyone gonna argue that point?

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/opinion/send-in-the-clueless.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share
"
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo110x16.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/)
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/opinion/article/opinion-logo-small.png (http://www.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.html) "


'Nuff said....... ;)

[~Barn~]

If Obama loved America he would preach about American Exceptionalism (i.e. that America is in fact a special country) <Snip...>

So to best reflect this notion of love, you think the best method is to preach "exceptionalism". :think:

I don't know about your upbringing, but I was raised to understand that those who are special, generally don't have to boast about it. I mean honestly.... does the toughest kid on the playground really have to gather everybody up at recess and tell everybody?

Or does the smartest kid in AP Math, really need to host a roundtable to remind everybody he didn't miss any questions on last weeks test? How about the biggest wage earner in the office... Are they generally seen encouraging their subordinates to pursue high achievement by pontificating how special they are?

I mean... I think I kinda see the point that you're trying to get at, but to me it sounds more like encouraging the notion of entitlement, than anything else. Even your use of the word "preaching" is very noticable, and not without its own conotation. In short, the point I want to make is that anybody or anything that is truly special, doesn't really have to talk about it much, because everybody just knows.

As a father, I love my kids more than most anything else in the world. But I'm not going to (here's that word again...) preach to them, how special they are, just because. The truth is, no matter how precious they might be to me, and how much love I have for then, there's no amount of praise or acclaim that I can express to them, that will ever change the fact that they'll always have to be accountable to themselves and others. And the very thought of preaching "exceptionalism", as you put it, or anything else that hints of entitilement, works directly against my beliefs in accountability. So much so, that it makes me cringe at the thought of a world leader, espousing anything similar to a country trying to put its best foot forward, and reclaim the luster that has been lost. It's the old saying of "don't talk about it, be about it."

Different strokes for different folks I suppose, just not my cup of tea...

[Ghost]

I'm sure you're right that Mr. Obama doesn't love Americans or America. Considering his multinational background, the opportunites this country afforded him, and the unique upbringing and his later successes he had in life; I can't imagine him having much affection for the USA.


You're forgetting that he's not REAAAALY an American since his birth certificate is clearly fake.

Still, to be fair, I think Hillary would have been, and would be a better president. I think she has more balls, and, more importantly, I think she has more political clout/power and the Clinton name and "machine" would enable her to get more things done.

Obama, even if he did try to do something (like fulfill many of his campaign promises that have so far been forgotten) will be blocked simply because he's Obama and the Republicans are out to ensure he's a one-term president regardless of the damage their blocking does to America and Americans.

Hilary, of course, will not run, she's already said she won't and it's out of line to run against a seated president of your own party. So, it will be Obama and Republican X for the next election, and we'll have to see how that goes...

Sadly, she's also going to be too old to run after the next election, so that hope is dead on the vine.

[Clovis]

Barn,

You misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about telling your kids that they're special.

My point is America is an exceptional country. Our owe our previous success to our characteristic "Can do" mentality. For generations, America has been the "go to" country. We have our problems today but we will persevere and find the solution. America is and will continue to be the best country on Earth.


So to best reflect this notion of love, you think the best method is to preach "exceptionalism". :think:

I don't know about your upbringing, but I was raised to understand that those who are special, generally don't have to boast about it. I mean honestly.... does the toughest kid on the playground really have to gather everybody up at recess and tell everybody?

Or does the smartest kid in AP Math, really need to host a roundtable to remind everybody he didn't miss any questions on last weeks test? How about the biggest wage earner in the office... Are they generally seen encouraging their subordinates to pursue high achievement by pontificating how special they are?

I mean... I think I kinda see the point that you're trying to get at, but to me it sounds more like encouraging the notion of entitlement, than anything else. Even your use of the word "preaching" is very noticable, and not without its own conotation. In short, the point I want to make is that anybody or anything that is truly special, doesn't really have to talk about it much, because everybody just knows.

As a father, I love my kids more than most anything else in the world. But I'm not going to (here's that word again...) preach to them, how special they are, just because. The truth is, no matter how precious they might be to me, and how much love I have for then, there's no amount of praise or acclaim that I can express to them, that will ever change the fact that they'll always have to be accountable to themselves and others. And the very thought of preaching "exceptionalism", as you put it, or anything else that hints of entitilement, works directly against my beliefs in accountability. So much so, that it makes me cringe at the thought of a world leader, espousing anything similar to a country trying to put its best foot forward, and reclaim the luster that has been lost. It's the old saying of "don't talk about it, be about it."

Different strokes for different folks I suppose, just not my cup of tea...

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Barn,

You misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about telling your kids that they're special.

My point is America is an exceptional country. Our owe our previous success to our characteristic "Can do" mentality. For generations, America has been the "go to" country. We have our problems today but we will persevere and find the solution. America is and will continue to be the best country on Earth.
Exactly. ;)

[~Barn~]

If Lip Service were that effective of a technique in actually accomplishing anything, this conversation wouldn't even be taking place, and Frank would be the happiest person I know.

And I don't think I did miss the point.... Leaders lead and guide nations, just a parents have influence to guide and lead their children. The correlation may be a stretch, but it's not that big of one.

Just think if we as Americans, nationally, could have substituted and engrained the ideals of selflessness and societal wellbeing and ongoing PROTECTION, over the past decade instead of unrestrained personal gain and selfishness, and greedy exploitation.... Millionaires and Billionaires would have still been made, to-be-sure, but I don't think we would have raped and eventually collapsed the entire economic foundation, as has been done. Sure, maybe that's a bit altruistic and the more wise approach is to insure governmental "oversight", but none the less... Is it really that out of the realm, to want to start at the heart of the issue?

And while I don't necessarily question your belief, Clovis, that America is, has-been, and can continue to be "The best country on Earth", I suspect you and I are measuring this greatness, with vastly different rationales.

[Clovis]

Greed is human nature. My wife and I argue this all the time.

I say that it's in our nature. Look at any animal in nature. Nature and natural selection favor the greedy. The ones who take the most territory, the ones that eat the most food (look at lion prides or wolf packs for example).

When the Europeans came over to North America and "stole" it from the Indians it was natural. Historically whenever you have two cultures/civilizations competing for the same limited resource (land in this case) the more technology always wins.

She argues that just because it's human nature to be greedy, doesn't mean that we should.

I can agree with that, it would be nice if we weren't greedy but the reality is that those who you are competing against are greedy and if you decide not to, you're only putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Aka reality sucks.


If Lip Service were that effective of a technique in actually accomplishing anything, this conversation wouldn't even be taking place, and Frank would be the happiest person I know.

And I don't think I did miss the point.... Leaders lead and guide nations, just a parents have influence to guide and lead their children. The correlation may be a stretch, but it's not that big of one.

Just think if we as Americans, nationally, could have substituted and engrained the ideals of selflessness and societal wellbeing and ongoing PROTECTION, over the past decade instead of unrestrained personal gain and selfishness, and greedy exploitation.... Millionaires and Billionaires would have still been made, to-be-sure, but I don't think we would have raped and eventually collapsed the entire economic foundation, as has been done. Sure, maybe that's a bit altruistic and the more wise approach is to insure governmental "oversight", but none the less... Is it really that out of the realm, to want to start at the heart of the issue?

And while I don't necessarily question your belief, Clovis, that America is, has-been, and can continue to be "The best country on Earth", I suspect you and I are measuring this greatness, with vastly different rationales.

[~Barn~]

I don't buy it. Greed is developed... It's a bastardization of genuine needs and wants by way of the unscrupulous, and I'll even go out on a limb and say by typically also of the fearful. This is 2012 Clovis, not the settlement of the new world. :roll:

If something can be declared "Natural", simply because history has shown us that we as humans are capable of it (not to mention the fact that we're now considering ourselves a "civilized" world), then would you say that slavery and genocide are natural? How about abuse and mistreatment of the young, old, weak, or otherwise defenseless? There's a certain element of greed in the act of rape, I suspect... Am I to believe that this is just a "natural" byproduct of today's reality, as "sucky" as it is?

Clearly you and I are on two different planets here, while still occupying the same date in time, but honestly, I don't believe one iota of what you have offered. And I assure you... I'm am a competitor of the highest order. But let's not kid ourselves... I'm smart enough to know that lots of people are living in alternate realities, from my own. But trust me when I tell you this... The disadvantage you speak of, by withholding greed from, shall-I-say... "pursuits of happiness", is wholly self-fulfilling.

I guess if nothing else, this discussion has made me even more appreciative of the people I consider close, and the quality of their character. I'll leave it at that.

[Clovis]

Greed is natural, it can be observed in nature. For example, species compete with one another for limited resources for survival.

Expanding past the animal kingdom consider civilizations past and present. Countries go to war over land, resources and/or protection of their "interest". Rome conquered the known world and expanded the republic (and later empire). They enslaved entire populations. They acted in greed in order to procure more land, wealth and ultimately power. They acted in the nature order of things.

We may not like it, we may wish things were different but that is the reality of how the world works. The universe does not run off of sunshine and rainbows. In one way or another we have all benefited by greed. Either directly or indirectly.

Please don't misinterpret this, I am not advocating greed. I am just simply stating the obvious, that greed is the result of human nature and it can never be stopped entirely.

It is however our humanity that allows us limit greed by giving to others, taking care our elderly and disabled and other non-greedy acts. We are all quite capable of compassion.

As for your genocide and slavery comment. Come on man, don't use the liberal cop out and take something I said out of context and then put words in my mouth. I've never met a liberal that can argue with logic and facts and you're only perpetuating that.

The moment we stop the left from creating division within the public based off of perpetuating resentment and envy, that's the moment when we'll start to take back our country.

[Ghost]

Greed is natural, it can be observed in nature. For example, species compete with one another for limited resources for survival.


"Greed" is a human construct, as is nearly everything we can discuss.

Greed does not exist in nature--no animal is greedy since they do not have the higher reasoning capacity to know and understand what 'Greed' is.

We see animals acting "naturally" and we label that "greed" as a reflection of our view of the action, but really it's just a survival instinct for them. Squirrels hoard food, Lions will kill Hyenas, but none of this is Greed. Animals act as animals because they are animals, we label what they do according to our preconceptions because that's us anthropomorphizing their natural actions along lines of our thought--thoughts they do not, and cannot possess themselves.

Greed requires thought, and the capacity to understand moral judgments and the ability to make decisions.

Greed is never Natural--it is a construct of the human mind.

Greed is not ingrained nor instinctual in humans any more than our capacity for building a nuclear bomb was "instinctive" or "natural".
Concepts develop over time, through language, and are the result of active thought processes.

Comparing us to animals does us both a disservice--and it's disingenuous.

The great thing about humanity is that we, unlike other animals, can choose to create the world we want--and while the rich and powerful want to create one of greed and mass consumption to suit their own ends, it does not have to be that way.

Many have bought into the notion that greed is good, and natural, and should be embraced, but there's no reason that must be universalized and it's not "natural" as it cannot be found in nature--it exists, as a concept and in reality, solely in the realm of man.

If we (collectively) wanted to change society, we could. Human history shows us that, if nothing else, societies rise and fall and both economic and political theories come and go and change over time and/or change due to demand--the French and American Revolutions are two prime examples.

So, no, I reject that Greed is inherent. It's not, it's learned, and it's believed in, and it's deified and worshiped, but it's not all we are capable of.

To reduce us to a complex of mere animalistic traits is to undo millions of years of evolution and thousands of years of constructed society, language, and thought. We have continually proven, as a species, that we are not animals. We're like them in many ways, but unlike them, we can create, we can think, and we can change--literally--the world itself.

We could, if we wished, change society to be anything we want--as we have in the past (and as we're unfortunately doing now--though in the wrong/immoral way).

But, those in power, and wealth is power, will not give up their lock on (mostly hereditary) power and social control.

They don't hang onto it out of some innate human construction, nor some innate inability to overcome a "natural tendency" to be greedy, but out of pure self-absorbed, narcissistic lust for power, and the better class of living that comes with it. They are Greedy in the true sense.

They are humans, thinking and acting in whatever way best serves solely their personal interests--that is Greed, and it's their love and their motivation, and unlike in animals, here it's true, and observable, and very genuine as a motivator and as a force that drives everything they do. But, it's their choice to be greedy, and evil, and, as some of the top 1% demonstrate, not all are "Greedy", it's not innate, nor inherent.

Buffet and others of his ilk have said that they need to contribute more, that they need to be taxed more, Gates and others donate (literally) millions every year to various charities and projects to help and improve the world.

Thus, some are choosing one path, while the majority choose a path of greed--but it's always their choice, and is always the result of a thought and a decision. No one instinctively writes a check to charity, and no one instinctively eliminates a factory here and moves it to China.

To claim that Greed "is just natural" is to sidestep all of human evolution--which, if nothing else, has been the triumph of the human mind over nature in nearly every way conceivable.

In short, saying "we're just greedy animals" is a double falsehood and undermines both animals and man's place in the world.

Greed can be eliminated--if people want to do it.

You, personally, could choose to reject or embrace it, it's an act of will and a reflection of thought, it's not something innate.

Or, to head this off, even if I allow that is in somehow innate (which is false), it's not the sole determinant of fate or of behavior--succumbing to greed/greedy impulses would be no more likely or unlikely than succumbing to acts of violence.

Those are our deepest animal instincts--fight or flight--and yet 99% of us in society can control and suppress them until they essentially don't exist. While there are "random acts of violence" we are not all fighting all the time. Most of the time, when you're eating at Chipotle or shopping in Best Buy there's no brawl over resources, there's no rape and murder as we succumb to our "animal" instincts over territory, mates, and food.

So, again, we see that logic, reason, the capacity for thought is what defines humanity, and "Greed" is a term for behavior, but the behavior itself is learned, practiced and worshiped, but it's not innate, or it's not innate and overpowering enough to dictate how we must live even while it's currently dictating how we do live.


Society dictates the attitudes and beliefs of its people, and ours have slumped into a cesspit of greed, and selfishness and a lack of true humanity, but it's reversible--if we want it.

[jbnwc]

And if you think the situation of the poor/"middle class" matters to the Republicans, you're out of touch with reality.

I hope that was meant to be sarcastic?

[jbnwc]

It started many years prior to the O-man getting into the oval office Frank. The GOP is clearly to blame for corporate outsourcing and running the deficit up.

Running up the deficit falls squarely on the shoulders of ALL OF THEM, D or R; but I put outsourcing largely on the shoulders of the unions.

[Ghost]

I hope that was meant to be sarcastic?

Not at all.

The party of Trickle Down Economics and Tax Cuts for The Rich pays lip service to helping the middle class, but all their real efforts are on their corporate buddies and the those at the top of the food chain.


Not that the Democrats are better--they claim they care but then are too weak to actually do anything about it and cave in at the first hint of resistance from the Republicans.

Basically, the middle class is on its own, and doomed because of it.

[Ghost]

I put outsourcing largely on the shoulders of the unions.

What? Why would unions--which are here to protect their workers be responsible for outsourcing?

Or, do you mean that in order to keep their profit margins and golden parachutes, the CEOs opted to move overseas in order to not pay their workers here?

In which case it's the fault of the CEOs and their greed, and not the unions who're trying to secure better wages/benefits/etc. for the employees....

[rforsythe]

My point is America is an exceptional country. Our owe our previous success to our characteristic "Can do" mentality. For generations, America has been the "go to" country. We have our problems today but we will persevere and find the solution. America is and will continue to be the best country on Earth.

Unfortunately America has become less about "can do", and more about "can take", "can sue", "can be entitled to...", etc. We CAN do a lot of things, but our place as "the best country on earth" is not ordained by God, the universe, or anything else other than ourselves. Historical precedent should tell you that it's a finite lifespan, as it has been for any superpower of their day.

And you're right about one thing: Greed IS human nature. It is not, however, a construct of nature itself in my opinion. It's something we've evolved beyond what other natural creatures do. Taking what you need to survive is NOT greed, it's, well, survival. Greed is this interesting desire we humans have to take more and more things that extend well beyond survival requirements, for many reasons (quality of life, ego, happiness, revenge, etc).

Back on topic, it's sad that kids are wishing for things like heat this year. I saw a guy on the corner this morning with a sign saying all he wanted was to give his 10 year old a good Christmas this year. Usually there's a different guy with a sign saying he just needs a miracle, though he's been there so long you can actually see the void where hope used to be if you look at his eyes.

I've been watching the differences in the guys begging for change and food over the past couple years. It's not the typical folks you'd expect to see; they look like people who had homes and jobs and provided for their families, until some tragic turn of events pushed them onto the corner. The kind of people we all probably sit next to at work or chat with on the Internet, until something drives them to desperation. If I see that guy with the sign about his kid again I'm really thinking about asking what that kid wants for Christmas and making it happen. There is something pretty fucked up with society when fathers are literally begging on the street for the chance to see their kid smile on Christmas morning.

[Ghost]

There is something pretty fucked up with society when fathers are literally begging on the street for the chance to see their kid smile on Christmas morning.

Sad but true--and, what's worse, it doesn't have to be this way.

[Clovis]

What? You believe that? The only thing that the modern day unions serve to do is to funnel money from their membership dues to the democratic party.


What? Why would unions--which are here to protect their workers be responsible for outsourcing?

[Clovis]

You can't do that! You've got a reputation to protect! :)


If I see that guy with the sign about his kid again I'm really thinking about asking what that kid wants for Christmas and making it happen.

[Snowman]

Greed is the opposite of contentment. The pursuit of more than what is needed to survive is influenced by our own insecurities. When someone is missing something in their life they will naturally try and fill it. It’s a lack of self-worth that we all face. Some try and fill it with money, objects, etc… (even post counts) these in our culture exhibit a power over those that don’t have them. The more one has compared to what others have, influences behavior generating that feeling of security.

The real question then has to be why do we need so much to feel secure? Why are some of us never secure, even when they have everything?

I agree the concept of greed was created by humans, just like the concepts of good and evil. These concepts do not exist with any other species on this planet. We as a country in this time are the ones who have to answer the question, what do we gain by having more than we need?

[Ghost]

Greed is the opposite of contentment. The pursuit of more than what is needed to survive is influenced by our own insecurities. When someone is missing something in their life they will naturally try and fill it. It’s a lack of self-worth that we all face. Some try and fill it with money, objects, etc… (even post counts) these in our culture exhibit a power over those that don’t have them. The more one has compared to what others have, influences behavior generating that feeling of security.

The real question then has to be why do we need so much to feel secure? Why are some of us never secure, even when they have everything?

I agree the concept of greed was created by humans, just like the concepts of good and evil. These concepts do not exist with any other species on this planet. We as a country in this time are the ones who have to answer the question, what do we gain by having more than we need?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z-9Z568kClU/TrdDgvoFRKI/AAAAAAAACwI/TFfA2hQ7mfo/s640/rosebud-toy-wins.jpg


Capitalism requires insecurity in order to function, if everyone were happy, content and secure in themselves and their possessions then there'd be little incentive to go buy and hoard and hoard and buy and Consume!

[mdub]

just glad to be HEALTHY...Ron Jeremy would be jealous

[Clovis]

Capitalism leads to a better life today and a better tomorrow. Capitalism drives innovation.

Do you like your smart phone? Computer? TV? Car? ANY CONSUMER PRODUCT?

Thank Capitalism. Complaining about capitalism on the internet is about as hypocritical as complaining about evil corporations on your iPad in one of the Occupy camps.

[~Barn~]

Greed is the opposite of contentment. The pursuit of more than what is needed to survive is influenced by our own insecurities. When someone is missing something in their life they will naturally try and fill it. It’s a lack of self-worth that we all face. Some try and fill it with money, objects, etc… (even post counts) these in our culture exhibit a power over those that don’t have them. The more one has compared to what others have, influences behavior generating that feeling of security.

The real question then has to be why do we need so much to feel secure? Why are some of us never secure, even when they have everything?

I agree the concept of greed was created by humans, just like the concepts of good and evil. These concepts do not exist with any other species on this planet. We as a country in this time are the ones who have to answer the question, what do we gain by having more than we need?

Check and Mate.

[Clovis]

Shouldn't you be sipping on a beer or something? I hear it's still day light that far south :)

Let me clarify. Greed is a human concept, however what we call greed nature calls survival. Haven't you ever watched the discovery channel (or I guess Animal planet) where one predator eats beyond being full just so another predator (competition) won't get it? Or when adult male lions kill baby lion cubs.

Those are among the natural order of things but we as people try to humanize it by calling it greed, or evil or just plain mean.

I disagree that a culture's insecurity drives them to have more and more. Today's society has become accustomed to things getting better and better so we expect the next year to have bigger and greater things (think technology). We haven't become insecure, our standard of living just continues to increase.

All though in reality the standard of living has plateaued in recent decades but that's another story.

But I was always told you shouldn't complain unless you can offer an alternative.

So I'll ask you guys the same question I asked Vellos (but never got an answer to). If capitalism sucks, and it's evil and America itself is this evil empire, what does your alternative look like? Please paint me a picture of your solution.

On another note, a friend of mine presented an interesting solution for the Occupy crowd:

"I would pay for a one-way ticket for the idiots to leave and promise never to come back. Let them go to the socialist utopia of Venezuela with Hugo Chavez."

The offer's on the table!


Greed is the opposite of contentment. The pursuit of more than what is needed to survive is influenced by our own insecurities. When someone is missing something in their life they will naturally try and fill it. It’s a lack of self-worth that we all face. Some try and fill it with money, objects, etc… (even post counts) these in our culture exhibit a power over those that don’t have them. The more one has compared to what others have, influences behavior generating that feeling of security.

The real question then has to be why do we need so much to feel secure? Why are some of us never secure, even when they have everything?

I agree the concept of greed was created by humans, just like the concepts of good and evil. These concepts do not exist with any other species on this planet. We as a country in this time are the ones who have to answer the question, what do we gain by having more than we need?

[Ghost]

Capitalism leads to a better life today and a better tomorrow. Capitalism drives innovation.

Do you like your smart phone? Computer? TV? Car? ANY CONSUMER PRODUCT?

Thank Capitalism. Complaining about capitalism on the internet is about as hypocritical as complaining about evil corporations on your iPad in one of the Occupy camps.

Capitalism drives greed, innovation is a byproduct, not a root cause or driving force.

In fact, most of capitalism is parasitic in nature, if someone innovates, everyone else copies in order to get a slice of the smartphone/hybrid/whatever action.

And, as evidenced by ancient societies, there's no direct link or necessary connection between the two. Ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece, China, Japan all were innovators in their day, and they weren't capitalist.

Innovation will survive without capitalism, and, as reruns and spinoffs and knock-offs show, capitalism thrives with or without new innovations to market.

[Ghost]

We haven't become insecure, our standard of living just continues to increase.

All though in reality the standard of living has plateaued in recent decades but that's another story.

You realize you just contradicted yourself, right?

And it's not "another story" it's the story. And it's not just plateaued, it's going downhill, and fast...

[Snowman]

Shouldn't you be sipping on a beer or something? I hear it's still day light that far south :)The day down here lasts until March, and I’ve got all day to do this…


Let me clarify. Greed is a human concept, however what we call greed nature calls survival. Haven't you ever watched the discovery channel (or I guess Animal planet) where one predator eats beyond being full just so another predator (competition) won't get it? Or when adult male lions kill baby lion cubs.

Those are among the natural order of things but we as people try to humanize it by calling it greed, or evil or just plain mean.

I disagree that a culture's insecurity drives them to have more and more. Today's society has become accustomed to things getting better and better so we expect the next year to have bigger and greater things (think technology). We haven't become insecure, our standard of living just continues to increase.

All though in reality the standard of living has plateaued in recent decades but that's another story.Your answer “If you are not greedy you will not survive” might be the mentality large banks, corporations and people with so much money that it’s their only source of income, but it’s not the mentality of the everyday working person.

Most of the rest of the planet doesn’t see the world like that. Survival for a large portion of the population is more about where their next meal is coming from, where they can get toilet paper, heat for their home, not if they need that million dollar bonus or even that next new cell phone.

An excessive desire to possess things and not share them is a classic example of a person’s insecurity. Self-image drives a person to want more than they need not survival.

[Ghost]

So I'll ask you guys the same question I asked Vellos (but never got an answer to). If capitalism sucks, and it's evil and America itself is this evil empire, what does your alternative look like? Please paint me a picture of your solution.

The Vellos question is a smoke screen to deflect attention to the real problem--the easier and more genuine question is--if Capitalism is so great, why are American citizens without jobs, without food, without healthcare? Why is the disparity between Rich and Poor/Middle Class only getting wider? Why is the median US Income lower now than it was 10yrs ago? Why are American citizens being forced from their homes? Why is money diverted from the tax payers to bail out massive banks and corporations that are clearly failing through their own incompetence, greed and corrupt business practices?

If this is Capitalism working at its finest, and this is America at its "Best" and America is the "best" in the world then I'm not seeing the advantages of Capitalism...

[Snowman]

All though in reality the standard of living has plateaued in recent decades but that's another story.

But I was always told you shouldn't complain unless you can offer an alternative.

So I'll ask you guys the same question I asked Vellos (but never got an answer to). If capitalism sucks, and it's evil and America itself is this evil empire, what does your alternative look like? Please paint me a picture of your solution.

On another note, a friend of mine presented an interesting solution for the Occupy crowd:

"I would pay for a one-way ticket for the idiots to leave and promise never to come back. Let them go to the socialist utopia of Venezuela with Hugo Chavez."

The offer's on the table!As far as an alternative to Capitalism, I don’t see anything wrong with the basic premise, however no one system of organized human interaction can exist by itself without eventually corrupting everything about itself. This goes for democracies, dictatorships, corporations, unions, justice systems, police, etc…

In a prefect never changing (non-human) world this balance theoretically could be created once and never need to be changed. However humans have this amazing quality of adaptability. No matter what horrid situation humans are placed in some of us will adapt and even thrive.

Capitalism is a good example of this. People make up businesses, businesses face change in the form of competition from other businesses, and so must change to stay in business. And by the very nature of what capitalism is and if it was the only system in place, then every form of change would be completely ethical. For example, in a world with capitalism as the only system, it would completely legal to lie about the value of mortgage securities to buyers then taking out insurance against those securities.

However for those who live in a world beyond just businesses, we see something like lying to make money as and unethical practice. And thus there is a need to have other forms of control over capitalism.

A democracy is one form that has this kind of authority. However when corporations infiltrate a democracy giving themselves the same rights as a citizen, then there is no separation of authority between capitalism and democracy anymore.

The fact humans are part of the capitalism process (or any other) is the reason behind their own demise. Some humans will always find a way to adapt and even exploit these systems for their own advantage. The balance has to come from people standing up and saying wait, that isn’t right and forcing changes through other systems of control.