More idiocy in CA.....

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/woman-wins-small-claims-suit-over-honda-civic-hybrid.html

How did this idiot ever in this? You are never GUARANTEED a certain mileage, only that during rigorous testing, in the EPA's own test loop, this is what mileage they were rated as having after an average of "X" runs. I know for a fact I can take at least 2-4MPG off the ratings, at the very BEST.

"Peters, a former lawyer, hoped to inspire a flood of such lawsuits by the other 200,000 owners of the Hybrid Honda Civic model sold in 2006. She said that if all 200,000 owners of the cars sued and won in small claims cost, it could Honda Motor Co. $2 billion." 'Nuff said....

This dingbat is too stupid to let drive. Just stupid.

[CaptGoodvibes]

You're mad at her because she's trying to stick it to a Japanese car company? She's "stupid" because she got almost $10k instead of one hundred dollars?

[Wrider]

No we're mad at her because she (and the judge) are morons who don't understand that real world conditions vary whatever mileage you see advertised.

The other thing that bugs me, is that it's the EPA that released those ratings. Honda advertised based on those. Does that mean it's the EPA that should be paying the 10 grand???

[laspariahs]

No we're mad at her because she (and the judge) are morons who don't understand that real world conditions vary whatever mileage you see advertised.

The other thing that bugs me, is that it's the EPA that released those ratings. Honda advertised based on those. Does that mean it's the EPA that should be paying the 10 grand???

You obviously don't understand what happened. I'll attempt to educate you.

Honda sold her a car with one ECU flash, with that ECU flash it got X mpg.

Then Honda decided later on, that it needed a different ECU flash, which made the car go less than X mpg.

So since she bought the car with them saying it got X mpg, and then recalled the car and made it go less mpg she sued.

I don't completely agree with what happened but I can see her point.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

You obviously don't understand what happened. I'll attempt to educate you.

Honda sold her a car with one ECU flash, with that ECU flash it got X mpg.

Then Honda decided later on, that it needed a different ECU flash, which made the car go less than X mpg.

So since she bought the car with them saying it got X mpg, and then recalled the car and made it go less mpg she sued.

I don't completely agree with what happened but I can see her point.

How do you know this to be the case? Is there another article you can cite?

So, she bought the car and it got "X" MPG. If she changed tires, and got "X-Y" MPG, is she going to sue the tire company? Oh wait, she's a lawyer, I guess that answered itself......

Point being, why not just get it flashed back to the old setting instead of suing if she realized she got less MPG? Oh wait, the lawyer thing again. Nevermind.....

[Grand]

The auto manufacturers aren't the ones who put out MPG estimates, right?

[CaptGoodvibes]

If I'm reading the article right, she bought the car expecting 50mpg and got 30mpg instead. That is a big difference.

[Wrider]

The auto manufacturers aren't the ones who put out MPG estimates, right?

Exactly, it's the EPA.


If I'm reading the article right, she bought the car expecting 50mpg and got 30mpg instead. That is a big difference.

It's not what you drive, it's how you drive it... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badoMjA_rW0)

Hell I read about a hyper miler who pulled 48 MPG out of a (stock, non-hybrid) RAV4...

[laspariahs]

How do you know this to be the case? Is there another article you can cite?

So, she bought the car and it got "X" MPG. If she changed tires, and got "X-Y" MPG, is she going to sue the tire company? Oh wait, she's a lawyer, I guess that answered itself......

Point being, why not just get it flashed back to the old setting instead of suing if she realized she got less MPG? Oh wait, the lawyer thing again. Nevermind.....

I know of your special love of lawyers and women, but I'll go ahead anyways.


I know the history of this car, that's what happened to it, and that's why it gets less mpg. I looked for a couple of minutes for the article talking about the ecu thing but I can't find it.

If the change in tires were demanded by the manufacturer I could see her point.

Honda has admitted this was a problem in a class action lawsuit, where the lawyers were given 8.5 million and the people who owned the car were given 100 dollars a piece I'm surprised you aren't up in arms about that.

[laspariahs]

This article mentions the ECU flash:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/30/as-civic-hybrid-mileage-lawsuit-continues-honda-shows-up/



Some observers believe the reduced mileage is an effect of a mandatory software upgrade applied to 2006-2008 Honda Civic Hybrids.

[CaptGoodvibes]

There is a 26 page judgement in this woman's case. I can't find it though.

"Carnahan included in his 26-page decision a long list of misleading representations by Honda that he said Peters had correctly identified. Among them were that the car would use “amazingly little fuel,” ‘’provides plenty of horsepower while still sipping fuel,” and that it would “save plenty of money on fuel with up to 50 mpg during city driving.”"

"The ruling harshly criticized Honda on several points, including misrepresentations about a software update that was represented as a cure for the mileage problems. Peters said it just made the situation worse and she could no longer get more than 30 mpg in the car, which she still owns.

Carnahan found that Honda did commit fraud, but he could not find intentional fraud and thus did not award punitive damages. Most of the damages Peters was awarded were for extra money spent on fuel, both in the past and future, the cost of the car battery, and the decrease in the car’s value because of its problems."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/environment/calif-woman-wins-small-claims-suit-over-honda-hybrid-mileage/2012/02/01/gIQAhoYpiQ_story.html

[McVaaahhh]

it got no more than 30 miles per gallon (12.75 kilometers per liter) when the battery began deteriorating

Anybody else think that a hybrid saves you money, over an equivalent sized, but cheaper car? In this case, a manual transmission civic with the 4 cyl is what, $8k less than the hybrid and will get > 30mpg...

[Ghost]

Anybody else think that a hybrid saves you money, over an equivalent sized, but cheaper car? In this case, a manual transmission civic with the 4 cyl is what, $8k less than the hybrid and will get > 30mpg...

A Civic HF is, typically, the overall cheaper/better solution to the Civic Hybrid.

The real pity is that we don't have anywhere near the number of 50+mpg diesels that are available in Europe.

[salsashark]

The real pity is that we don't have anywhere near the number of 50+mpg diesels that are available in Europe.

we need $8/gallon prices before that will happen.

[laspariahs]

we need $8/gallon prices before that will happen.

We need different regulations on cars before that will happen. To bring over those cars we would have to allow higher NOx emissions for cars than we currently do. Which is why diesel cars in america require urea injection.

[Ghost]

We need different regulations on cars before that will happen. To bring over those cars we would have to allow higher NOx emissions for cars than we currently do. Which is why diesel cars in america require urea injection.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Gasoline cars produce more CO2, CO and HC than diesels, but far less NOx (unless you're running catless--in which case your NOx will be high).

In theory, that means that the lower CO2 of the Diesel is better for global warming, but worse for NOx and particulate matter.

Still, cleaner-burning and direct-injected Diesels are a lot better than your old diesels, at 50+MPG there's less fuel used overall per mile, and Biodiesel is cleaner than regular diesel (if used).

But, the big thing is perception. Americans still think all diesels are "dirty" and they picture that ancient Benz diesel choking everyone out on the way up the 70 and they can't get past that. So, while more companies could bring diesels over here, most leave it to VW since they've got the cult following of diesel owners that GM or Honda probably doesn't have.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

But, the big thing is perception. Americans still think all diesels are "dirty" and they picture that ancient Benz diesel choking everyone out on the way up the 70 and they can't get past that. So, while more companies could bring diesels over here, most leave it to VW since they've got the cult following of diesel owners that GM or Honda probably doesn't have.

Americans think of diesels as dirty is because of all the f#cking redneck a$$holes "burning coal" just to piss people off. Also, I've seen some of the newest diesels in cars puffing small clouds, so, if people see it, and never see clouds from their gas cars, well.....

[Ghost]

Americans think of diesels as dirty is because of all the f#cking redneck a$$holes "burning coal" just to piss people off. Also, I've seen some of the newest diesels in cars puffing small clouds, so, if people see it, and never see clouds from their gas cars, well.....

I guess we need to dye gasoline so you can see the rainbow of pollutants.

[#1Townie]

Lolol our country can and will sue for anything.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I guess we need to dye gasoline so you can see the rainbow of pollutants.
Perception my friend, perception. Today's gas engines are extremely clean. I remember driving my big-block '69 Charger around and smelling the raw gas. I agree that diesels are far cleaner than they were, but the asshole rednecks "burnin' coal" are screwing up the diesel image for everyone. And I STILL don't want to see a brand new little Golf puffing smoke.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Coming from the RATIONAL Engineering world, the gov't specified certain tests. The Honda passed those tests with "X" gas mileage. They sold the car based on the results of those tests. If the test does not accurately simulate real world conditions, it is the gov't's fault.

Nobody is guaranteed anything in life, but these parasites feel entitled to everything. F#ck her and all those like her. I buy a car KNOWING I'll never see the estimate, but iI still use it to compare to other cars because the delta in gas mileage will be the same.

[modette99]

I think it is about time someone sued and won. Whether its the government or the manufacture it don't matter. We all know that the sticker means BS.

I would much rather have the manufacture find an average of say 25mpg in the real world and list the vehicle at 22mpg then have them or government claim 35mph which will NEVER happen in the real world. In my example then when someone gets 25mph or better in a 22mpg advertised vehicle they think its the best thing since sliced bread. They will talk that vehicle up non stop to all their friends and family.

Hybrids are a joke anyways....

I agree with the idea of bringing over more small diesel vehicles like in Europe. I think the Front Range be a great place for manufacture to try them...we have a huge Military population here that have lived there and probably would understand the value in owning a small Diesel vehicle...not as much stigma here as in other areas of the country.

Downside, people also still look at Gasoline prices and Diesel is always higher now. Of course the Government could change that by taking the tax off if they really wanted people to get better mpg.

[modette99]

Now only if someone would SUE fast food places for not serving what the picture SHOWS.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I think it is about time someone sued and won. Whether its the government or the manufacture it don't matter. We all know that the sticker means BS.
Why? so we can all pay higher car prices because some whiney bitch lawyer decided she was "entitled" to money?

As I said, the gov't established a stringent test procedure. Honda, like all the other car makers, tested to that procedures. they then simply reported the numbers. WTF is there to sue over? There's ALWAYS the discraimer that your mileage may vary. Simple.

This "entitlement" mantality in the world today sucks donkey ballz.

[madvlad]

That lady is just a retard... the whole idea of the customer is always right in this country is beyond ridiculous. Like said above IT IS AN ESTIMATED NUMBER, NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE!... Way to fuel other trolls out there lady and make a stand for something that is just completely irrelevant and stupid. Make a stand for poverty, the sick and the ones in need if you need something real to do other than prove a point that proves nothing but that you are a complete useless person. I have never heard of ANY automaker guarantee their gas mileage because they know of the constant condition changes and faults mechanically that could happen. I seriously feel like slapping this bitch with one of my ASE certification books to see if her ignorance goes away..... fucktard.

[Wrider]

That lady is just a retard... the whole idea of the customer is always right in this country is beyond ridiculous. Like said above IT IS AN ESTIMATED NUMBER, NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE!... Way to fuel other trolls out there lady and make a stand for something that is just completely irrelevant and stupid. Make a stand for poverty, the sick and the ones in need if you need something real to do other than prove a point that proves nothing but that you are a complete useless person. I have never heard of ANY automaker guarantee their gas mileage because they know of the constant condition changes and faults mechanically that could happen. I seriously feel like slapping this bitch with one of my ASE certification books to see if her ignorance goes away..... fucktard.


I'm with you up until...... Oh wait all the way.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

That lady is just a retard... the whole idea of the customer is always right in this country is beyond ridiculous. Like said above IT IS AN ESTIMATED NUMBER, NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE!... Way to fuel other trolls out there lady and make a stand for something that is just completely irrelevant and stupid. Make a stand for poverty, the sick and the ones in need if you need something real to do other than prove a point that proves nothing but that you are a complete useless person. I have never heard of ANY automaker guarantee their gas mileage because they know of the constant condition changes and faults mechanically that could happen. I seriously feel like slapping this bitch with one of my ASE certification books to see if her ignorance goes away..... fucktard.

Hey, I'm with you up until........the period at the end! :)

[Ezzzzy1]

That lady is just a retard... the whole idea of the customer is always right in this country is beyond ridiculous. Like said above IT IS AN ESTIMATED NUMBER, NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE!... Way to fuel other trolls out there lady and make a stand for something that is just completely irrelevant and stupid. Make a stand for poverty, the sick and the ones in need if you need something real to do other than prove a point that proves nothing but that you are a complete useless person. I have never heard of ANY automaker guarantee their gas mileage because they know of the constant condition changes and faults mechanically that could happen. I seriously feel like slapping this bitch with one of my ASE certification books to see if her ignorance goes away..... fucktard.

"The customer is always right" is not ridiculous, but like everything else in America it sooner or later gets abused and taken advantage of.

Its how I have run all of my businesses and works perfectly, until the customer starts spouting off about it. Its like telling your daughter she is always pretty and her going to school and telling everyone that she is pretty. In my world the customer is always right until the customer says the customer is always right :)

[madvlad]

It is a load of bullshit. Agreeing with the customer to a point is one thing and or admitting from a business stance that a mistake was made is one thing but ass kissing is just ridiculous. We deal with that bullshit every fucking day, with dumbass cry baby shit complaints cause these people think the fucking world owes them something, give me a fucking break! and is making people stupid ergo look at what happened with this retard bitch. I guarantee you nobody told her it was guaranteed mileage because they know the legal implications it could mean. Anyways she won, hope she enjoys that gas money she didn't deserve. Hope she can find a hospital to do a brain transplant for her or enroll back in school for that matter.