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SlackerATC
Mon Mar 12th, 2012, 06:42 PM
So, I've heard this term tossed around a lot, and I get the basics of it, kinda. Push right to go right, right?

Anyway, my question is, is that a downward push, or a forward push, or a little bit of both?

Or do I have it wrong completely?

Wrider
Mon Mar 12th, 2012, 06:46 PM
It's a forward push. If you push down all you're doing is attempting to bend your bars lol.
If you want to really get how it works, go into a large parking lot and hit 30 mph, then push one bar forward. Turns the front wheel out, bike wants to keep going straight, so it ends up falling over a little, initiating a lean toward the direction of the bar you pushed.

SlackerATC
Mon Mar 12th, 2012, 06:57 PM
Ok, that makes sense. I had been pushing downward and leaning. But on the ride home yesterday something made me push forward instead and I was surprised at how smooth it felt. Just want to make sure I'm doing it correctly. Trying to make good habits now.

dirkterrell
Mon Mar 12th, 2012, 08:26 PM
This reminds me of something I noticed recently that I meant to post something about. I've heard people being uncomfortable with right-hand turns at speed and trying to figure out why. (That discussion might very well have been on this forum but I think I recall that it was the VFR forum.)

One day at the track I noticed that when I counter-steer in left turns, I am pushing with my left hand. When I counter-steer in right turns, I am pulling with my left hand. I had been doing this for years without really thinking about it. That leaves my right hand free to deal solely with throttle inputs, and may at least partly explain why I don't have any issue with right versus left turns. I wonder if others do the same thing?

Nooch
Mon Mar 12th, 2012, 08:32 PM
I wonder if others do the same thing?

I totally do this. Funny too because I just realized it this past weekend (been alot more focused on the particulars of my technique since I read Total Control). I also noticed that the chickenstrip on the right side of my rear tire is slightly wider than the left. So I suppose there is something to be said about the effectiveness of more proper countersteering as well.

CaptGoodvibes
Mon Mar 12th, 2012, 08:32 PM
One day at the track I noticed that when I counter-steer in left turns, I am pushing with my left hand. When I counter-steer in right turns, I am pulling with my left hand. I had been doing this for years without really thinking about it. That leaves my right hand free to deal solely with throttle inputs, and may at least partly explain why I don't have any issue with right versus left turns. I wonder if others do the same thing?:hibye:

Cornfed
Mon Mar 12th, 2012, 08:42 PM
Read Total Control and Twist of the Wrist I and II, both great books. Then lets go practice.

Penadam
Tue Mar 13th, 2012, 12:51 AM
Concentrate in dropping your elbows so they're in line with the bars. This will keep you from pushing down. Really (feels like it) lightens up the steering effort.

Darth Do'Urden
Tue Mar 13th, 2012, 07:00 AM
Concentrate in dropping your elbows so they're in line with the bars. This will keep you from pushing down. Really (feels like it) lightens up the steering effort.

Having your forearms parallel to the ground does indeed lighten up the steering effort as you don't have any weight on the bars, allowing more accurate and near-effortless inputs, which in turn makes for a significantly lighter steering. Arms that are at an angle, locked tight and stiff, will make for much more difficult steering inputs, and can make for a bad situation should you need to really put the bike into a steep lean to avoid a hazard (ask me how I know).

The more I practice keeping my butt in the rear of the seat (easier on a two-piece seat), back straight, toes on the pegs, heels up, and forearms parallel to the ground, the more comfortable and truly "in control" I feel on my bike.

HOTCARCASS
Fri Apr 6th, 2012, 12:46 PM
Dont forget to use the swell in your tank to assist steering with your knees. This is somthing Ricky Orlando Worked with me on in conjunction with counter steering. Counter steering and pulling with my knees is how he taught me to initiate a turn. Once the bike is falling in he taught me to follow the radius with my bars (Directional steering) and balance with my knees with your forarm across the tank. Example Left hand turn - push with the L hand (counter steer) pull with the R knee and lay the R forarm on the tank to help engage the L shoulder into the turn. Your butt must hover on transistion from one side to the other so that the chasis can be free to respond to the inputs. Be so careful practicing this as your bike will jump from one side to the other with or without you. When you are having trouble getting your bike around turns try these tips they can make a world of difference.
Thanks Ricky

texlurch
Wed Apr 11th, 2012, 12:06 AM
Not only all that has been said on body position, but don't forget to LOOK where you want to go.

Turning that head into the turn will do wonders for your corners.

Josh Galster
Fri Sep 14th, 2012, 09:11 AM
You also want to make sure you go WITH the bike and don't cross-up on the bike.

Have you ever had a passenger or been a passenger? What do you tell them to do? Exactly, go with you. And when they don't, how does the bike feel? yeah, shitty, unstable. Same thing when its just the rider. You and the bike want to be 'one' with each other. So make sure you're going with the bike and making that forward push.

I've been teaching with the California Superbike School for 6 years so i'm not just some guy with useful advise.

Josh Galster

Zviffer
Fri Sep 14th, 2012, 09:42 PM
This reminds me of something I noticed recently that I meant to post something about. I've heard people being uncomfortable with right-hand turns at speed and trying to figure out why.

I thought it's a psychological thing - at least on the street anyway. Blowing a right hander puts you into the oncoming lane, whereas blowing a left hander simply puts you in the rhubarb (at least you hope so). Hence many tend to take right handers a bit more conservatively. I've read elsewhere that it's the opposite with Brits, Aussies and Kiwis who drive on the wrong side of the road. :)

bornwildnfree
Sat Sep 15th, 2012, 06:28 AM
It's also very subtle movements. Most of us do not ride track speeds (triple the speed limit +10) on the street so we don't need to lean our upper body AND move our butt wayyy off the side of the bike. Using big movments at slower speeds dips you very aggressively into a corner causing you to have to readjust your line at the apex. Not fun and for me, it made me slow down even more because I wasn't sure what I was doing wrong.

For a left hand turn these days, I push slightly with my left hand, pull slightly with my right hand while bringing my upper body down onto the tank and try and make my helmet line up with my mirror. My butt shifts maybe an inch, but I also push down with my left foot slightly on the peg and flex my hip which pushes the rear tire out farther and increases my lean angle allowing me to take the turn faster. Very subtle movements but I've gone from being dead last and so far behind the pack that they have helmets and jackets off and are almost through their first cigarette by the time i catch up to being 3rd right behind HOTCARCASS and Cornfed.

Start small, with only moving your upper body and counter steering, maybe just wiggling the hips. Big movements are for the track...well maybe HWY 141.

texlurch
Sat Sep 15th, 2012, 07:00 AM
I tend to move and stick the knee out a bit even on the street just to maintain habits. Plus the bike doesn't have to lean as much meaning unexpected obstacles mid-turn don't become oh shit moments.

Titus
Sat Sep 15th, 2012, 10:35 AM
Definitely buy & watch the Twist of the Wrist II movie!

It will give you a ton of tech & reality on all your questions.

tecknojoe
Sat Sep 15th, 2012, 10:37 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-II-Keith-Code/dp/0965045072/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347727000&sr=8-1&keywords=twist+of+the+wrist+2+dvd

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AgjlvszcL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Sarge
Sat Sep 15th, 2012, 03:14 PM
What I've always noticed is that it's the right handed people who have the most difficulty making right handed turns, especially new riders, mostly because of the strength and dexterity required of the left hand during right turns. Same principle as trying to write with your left hand, etc.

Titus
Sat Sep 15th, 2012, 03:32 PM
What I've always noticed is that it's the right handed people who have the most difficulty making right handed turns, especially new riders, mostly because of the strength and dexterity required of the left hand during right turns. Same principle as trying to write with your left hand, etc.

In addition, I think a lot of new riders tend to not "lock-in" with their legs, so they hold quite a bit of weight with their arms. This makes turning the handlebars and operating the controls even more difficult.

kawasakirob
Tue Sep 25th, 2012, 07:51 PM
A good way to practice is by simply changing lanes while going down the road. Simple yet effective. Don't over think it !:)

#1Townie
Tue Sep 25th, 2012, 08:50 PM
Odds are you are already doing it you just dont realize it.

vozproto
Mon May 6th, 2013, 02:24 PM
It takes VERY little input at speed. A simple forward push is all you need.
When you get into more spirited riding its even less input.

At this point to keep the mechanics of your body in "fine motor skills" in relation to your riding position...
Keep your elbows sticking way out the same way a dirt rider would.
-This allows for more "small" inputs,
-Keeps any head-shake from translating through your body which could otherwise create a tank-slapper siutation
-Allows you to more finely tune the throttle input. Think turning a screw-driver with your forearm twisting rather than breaking your wrist.

UHATEIT
Mon May 6th, 2013, 03:41 PM
I am obviously way off on my understanding as I don't understand pushing the opposite direction of the way you want to turn. I know that is what counter steering is it just sounds weird. On a bicycle if you want to go right you turn the handlebars to the right (push forward with left and pull back with right hand). So motorcycling countersteering makes no sense to me when you push your right hand forward and pulling back with your left when you are trying to make a right hand turn.

I am always riding stiff, I have tried to loosen up. I am bad at right hand turns and have to slow WAY the fuck down to make them. I have tried to get as far to the left before the right turn as I can but half the time at completion of my right turn I am either right at the center yellow line and almost into oncoming traffic. I cannot seem to make a right hand turn into the right lane by any means.

Grant H.
Mon May 6th, 2013, 04:44 PM
On a bicycle if you want to go right you turn the handlebars to the right (push forward with left and pull back with right hand).

Not at speeds over 25-30mph on a pedal bike...

Parking lot speeds on a motorcycle are the same, pull back on right to go right. Turning at speed (30+) is push right to turn right.

Go to a big parking lot or a business park on the weekend and play with it.


I am always riding stiff, I have tried to loosen up. I am bad at right hand turns and have to slow WAY the fuck down to make them. I have tried to get as far to the left before the right turn as I can but half the time at completion of my right turn I am either right at the center yellow line and almost into oncoming traffic. I cannot seem to make a right hand turn into the right lane by any means.

Initiate your turn earlier.

By this I mean get left in the turn lane, and start turning earlier.

Start wide (left in turn lane).
Cut close to edge of the road where the road actually changes direction (right in corner).
Finish wide, but not too wide (left side of new lane of traffic).

As far as being loose, yes, you need to be relaxed in the arms/shoulders to ride properly. Carry your weight by using your legs, knees, and abs to hold your body up.

I am a fairly new rider as well (this is my second season to ride, first to own a bike) and I still have to remind myself to ride properly.

Seating posture instructional video that helped me... (once I find the link...)

ETA: Found it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlfN9Z6IlI0

dirkterrell
Mon May 6th, 2013, 05:23 PM
I am always riding stiff, I have tried to loosen up. I am bad at right hand turns and have to slow WAY the fuck down to make them. I have tried to get as far to the left before the right turn as I can but half the time at completion of my right turn I am either right at the center yellow line and almost into oncoming traffic. I cannot seem to make a right hand turn into the right lane by any means.

Without seeing exactly what you're doing, I suspect you are turning in too early. Try turning in, and apexing, a little later. If you're not trail braking, when you turn in you are committed to a given curve with the speed and lean angle you have. If that curve is placed earlier on the turn at the apex, you'll be wider on the exit. Try going in just a little deeper a see what effect it has. Do things like this in small increments and you'll be able to make the adjustments more safely.

Grant H.
Mon May 6th, 2013, 05:27 PM
Without seeing exactly what you're doing, I suspect you are turning in too early. Try turning in, and apexing, a little later. If you're not trail braking, when you turn in you are committed to a given curve with the speed and lean angle you have. If that curve is placed earlier on the turn at the apex, you'll be wider on the exit. Try going in just a little deeper a see what effect it has. Do things like this in small increments and you'll be able to make the adjustments more safely.

True.

I assumed he was having the same issue on right hand corners that I did. I would wait till way to late.

gregr
Mon May 6th, 2013, 05:55 PM
What I've always noticed is that it's the right handed people who have the most difficulty making right handed turns, especially new riders, mostly because of the strength and dexterity required of the left hand during right turns. Same principle as trying to write with your left hand, etc.

Well since this thread was brought back from the dead, I'll quote an old comment. :) I have no idea what you're talking about here - what strength and dexterity is required of the left hand for a right hand turn? You can let your left hand go completely floppy if you want to - in fact, I think it's in one of those aforementioned videos that they suggest completely relaxing your left hand/arm for right-hand turns (and vice versa).

UHATEIT
Tue May 7th, 2013, 08:30 AM
Without seeing exactly what you're doing, I suspect you are turning in too early. Try turning in, and apexing, a little later. If you're not trail braking, when you turn in you are committed to a given curve with the speed and lean angle you have. If that curve is placed earlier on the turn at the apex, you'll be wider on the exit. Try going in just a little deeper a see what effect it has. Do things like this in small increments and you'll be able to make the adjustments more safely.

I am trying to be completely off the brake. An issue of my previous crash was panic braking in the turn and standing the bike up. My buddy alwasy says "brake in the straights" so I've been trying not to tap or use the brake at all during my turns for fear of losing it and standing it up.

I found this good info: http://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187025
that thread has some pictures and talks about stressing the alignment of your body in a turn, which I need to work on. I actually noticed when I turn right, sometimes I dont lean my body with the bike I will keep it straight rather than leaning with the bike, and that could also be an issue of having a problem turning right.
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p573/off1master/body-position-correct.jpg

vs this being me just by natural instincts:
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p573/off1master/body-position-incorrect.jpg

Wrider
Tue May 7th, 2013, 08:40 AM
I'll throw in something I've noticed too. When you're leaning outside of the bike, the bike feels squirrelly and makes it hard to get the confidence to lean your body more than the bike. Once you finally get up the courage to lean your body more than the bike, it makes a huge difference. The bike becomes more stable, your corners become more smooth, you have a ton more control, and it's a whole lot more physically relaxed than leaning outside.

dirkterrell
Tue May 7th, 2013, 09:03 AM
I am trying to be completely off the brake. An issue of my previous crash was panic braking in the turn and standing the bike up. My buddy alwasy says "brake in the straights" so I've been trying not to tap or use the brake at all during my turns for fear of losing it and standing it up.


Braking in a corner is nothing to fear. Being comfortable with it requires practice. But I would start with good body positioning and line choice.



I found this good info: http://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187025
that thread has some pictures and talks about stressing the alignment of your body in a turn, which I need to work on.

Turning a motorcycle at speed is a complex process that involves many things, body positioning, line choice, gear choice, eye placement, smooth control inputs, etc. Training and practice will get you there.

asp_125
Tue May 7th, 2013, 09:06 AM
Uhateit, remember what we worked on in Deer Creek? If you get that right forearm/elbow pointed towards the apex, it won't block your body from moving to the inside as much.

That, and an exaggerated head turn/lateral move will naturally move you inside. Notice the head positions in the photos. The top two riders are looking ahead AND sideways, while the sport touring rider is looking ahead.

More like this:
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p573/off1master/lookthroughtheturn.jpg

FZRguy
Tue May 7th, 2013, 11:31 PM
I won’t mention the term “counter steering” to a new rider. It is much simpler for a new rider to understand “lean left, go left; lean right, go right.” Sure, it’s initiated at the bar but you should use your whole body to turn a motorcycle….feet, ankles, knees, upper body. Like already mentioned, a light relaxed grip on the bars and where you look is ultra-important. It can take years of practice to be relaxed and “at one” with a motorcycle. That’s one of the many things I like about riding…no matter how good you get, there’s always room for improvement.

gregr
Wed May 8th, 2013, 08:56 AM
I won’t mention the term “counter steering” to a new rider. It is much simpler for a new rider to understand “lean left, go left; lean right, go right.” Sure, it’s initiated at the bar but you should use your whole body to turn a motorcycle….feet, ankles, knees, upper body. Like already mentioned, a light relaxed grip on the bars and where you look is ultra-important. It can take years of practice to be relaxed and “at one” with a motorcycle. That’s one of the many things I like about riding…no matter how good you get, there’s always room for improvement.

Have you watched the twist of the wrist videos (or been to the CA super bike school), and seen the bike with two sets of handlebars? One set is normal, and one set is fixed. If you watch people holding the fixed set (so they can't provide handlebar inputs), you can see them leaning like crazy, but the bike barely turns.

Counter steering is the only way to turn a motorcycle. Given that, I don't see why new riders should not learn this in the first 10 minutes of instruction.

dirkterrell
Wed May 8th, 2013, 09:11 AM
If anyone doubts the effect of counter-steering, do this: when you're cruising down a long straight, put just a little bit of forward pressure on one of the grips and watch what the bike does.

UglyDogRacing
Wed May 8th, 2013, 09:22 AM
We emphasize counter-steering in the BRC, BRC2 and ARC to initiate turns. It's the "press" in the Slow,Look,Press,Roll technique. It's even more important when having to make a quick swerve to avoid an obstacle or hazard. Leaning your body only would not sufficiently turn the bike. Being proficient at counter-steering is as important as braking.

FZRguy
Wed May 8th, 2013, 02:55 PM
Sure, counter steering is what we do, I just think it's a confusing concept for a new rider. A new rider needs instruction on the inputs at the bar, tank, pegs to turn his/her motorcycle...not so much the concept of CS IMO. When I was a new rider, my corner manta was down, down, down.

UHATEIT
Wed May 8th, 2013, 03:05 PM
Uhateit, remember what we worked on in Deer Creek? If you get that right forearm/elbow pointed towards the apex, it won't block your body from moving to the inside as much.

That, and an exaggerated head turn/lateral move will naturally move you inside. Notice the head positions in the photos. The top two riders are looking ahead AND sideways, while the sport touring rider is looking ahead.

More like this:
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p573/off1master/lookthroughtheturn.jpg

I've been doing the exaggerated elbow pointing and head turning since the Deer Creek training. I think looking through the turn is especially hard for right turns since you can't really look through it there's always something over there, by the time you see the apex to turn theres minimal space to whip the bike right or you'll cross the center line (I'm referring to right hand 90 degree turns) I also have been keeping my hands off the brake in turns for fear of locking up and standing it up like I did many times. So sometimes if I am fully off the brake and hit the turn too fast I panic, so I slow waaaaay down before the turn basically holding up cars before making the turn, then accelerate like a squid after making the turn so as to not hold people up anymore

gregr
Wed May 8th, 2013, 03:07 PM
Sure, counter steering is what we do, I just think it's a confusing concept for a new rider. A new rider needs instruction on the inputs at the bar, tank, pegs to turn his/her motorcycle...not so much the concept of CS IMO. When I was a new rider, my corner manta was down, down, down.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Counter steering is the ONLY way to turn a motorcycle.

Everything else can help, but it's most certainly not going to get you around a turn sharper than a slow lane change. Especially for a new rider, it needs to become second nature to "push right, go right". Pressing a knee on the tank? Weighting pegs? None of this matters for a new rider, IMHO.

That said, I don't think I'd suggest to a new rider that he steer to the left to go to the right - that _is_ confusing. But suggesting he push on the right bar to go right - that's simple. Arguably unintuitive at first, but not difficult to learn.

FZRguy
Wed May 8th, 2013, 03:13 PM
I don't disagree with what you're saying gregr.

GMR
Wed May 8th, 2013, 03:59 PM
The way I understand it, if I'm going to make a right turn, I push on the right handlebar slightly, which momentarily turns me left but it gives me more momentum and balance to ultimately turn the wheel to the right and lean right and help find the center of gravity, not to mention gives a better line through the apex. Like as in, for a skateboarder to throw a standie, you would at first carve to the left before taking a sharp right where you can initiate the slide with the extra momentum generated because just turning right really hard wouldn't work so well on its own

Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, when I'm dicking around (like just weaving the bike on a straight road) I like to initiate lean with my hips. Is that ok or is that crack?

gregr
Wed May 8th, 2013, 05:19 PM
The way I understand it, if I'm going to make a right turn, I push on the right handlebar slightly, which momentarily turns me left but it gives me more momentum and balance to ultimately turn the wheel to the right and lean right and help find the center of gravity, not to mention gives a better line through the apex. Like as in, for a skateboarder to throw a standie, you would at first carve to the left before taking a sharp right where you can initiate the slide with the extra momentum generated because just turning right really hard wouldn't work so well on its own

Am I understanding this correctly?

That sounds really complicated. The physics are simpler than all that.

In order to turn right, the bike must lean to the right. Pressing on the right bar points the front tire a bit to the left, which makes the bike lean to the right.

CaptGoodvibes
Wed May 8th, 2013, 06:49 PM
That sounds really complicated. The physics are simpler than all that.

In order to turn right, the bike must lean to the right. Pressing on the right bar points the front tire a bit to the left, which makes the bike lean to the right.

It is just this simple. Any more thought on the subject should only be done after the rider is experienced.