The Bible, Christianity, and Homosexuality

[bornwildnfree]

He did over a year's worth of research to present this speech and had the courage to present it in front of a Methodist Church. His courage is enormous and his position is well thought out and presented. I actually changed my beliefs which is rare.

http://matthewvines.tumblr.com/

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

He did over a year's worth of research to present this speech and had the courage to present it in front of a Methodist Church. His courage is enormous and his position is well thought out and presented. I actually changed my beliefs which is rare.

http://matthewvines.tumblr.com/

Well, I don't subscribe to any religion, and have no issue with gay people, but I guess if you live by and interpret the bible literally, I see the point where certain religions are against gay marriage and gays in general. I don't feel these churches should be FORCED by the gov't to perform or recognize gay marriage, but think that certain other churches will spring up that will.

[madvlad]

I've been a Christian all my life and though I abide by this, I don't judge people that choose that path nor I tell them about my beliefs. As long as they respect mine, i'll respect theirs, simple as that.

[#1Townie]

I could really care less about gay relationships. If they want to get married it shouldn't be up to anyone but them. Fuck the god hates gays crowed.

[Ghosty]

Wow, I'm sure it had to be rough growing up gay in a traditional Wichita Christian family. Props to this guy's bravery.

Normally I'm a "Live and let live" type guy, BUT in the case of the mega-douchebag Westboro Baptist Church, they definitely need to DIAF! If you don't know who they are, Google. They like to protest at soldiers funerals and say it's "God's will" that soldiers get killed. Same with gays.

P.S. People who think gay can be "cured" are living in a fantasy world devoid of scientific reason, imo. That NewLife mega pastor down in the Springs caught with a male hooker is a prime example, hahaa.

[modette99]

I've been a Christian all my life and though I abide by this, I don't judge people that choose that path nor I tell them about my beliefs. As long as they respect mine, i'll respect theirs, simple as that.

So its safe to say your not the one coming to my door and trying to change my beliefs!!!!

Those are the ONLY religious people I HATE.

[Ghost]

P.S. People who think gay can be "cured" are living in a fantasy world devoid of scientific reason.

You recognize the humor in this, right?

[madvlad]

So its safe to say your not the one coming to my door and trying to change my beliefs!!!!

Those are the ONLY religious people I HATE.

I will share about it only if people are interested or curious and as long as they dont mock me but I don't force it upon anyone. I've had interesting and civil conversation with friends of other religions and stuff, just to learn about each other is cool, doesn't mean we stopped believing in what we each do and no hatred. Have had few friends and even strangers that turned to Christianity and their lives have improved dramatically (drug use, abuse of all kind, alcoholics, etc), whether it was me or someone else I'm glad it's for their well being and benefit. I will believe in God for as long as I live and I know there's more at work than what meets the eye... call me crazy but personal experiences is proof lol

[modette99]

I'm confused, do you go to peoples doors then!!!

All I read was blah blah blah I'm religious, blah blah blah I eat babies



LOL

[madvlad]

Confused about what? Pretty self explanatory first sentence... but i'll just please you and tell you what you want to hear and bash away if you must, I am a Jesus loving, bible hugging, honk if you love Jesus type person and not ashamed of it... and no worries on the door knocking lol

[The Black Knight]

Confused about what? Pretty self explanatory first sentence... but i'll just please you and tell you what you want to hear and bash away if you must, I am a Jesus loving, bible hugging, honk if you love Jesus type person and not ashamed of it... and no worries on the door knocking lol
Don't waste your time MadVlad. It took me a very long time to just forget trying to talk religion on this forum. With the constant ridicule, mocking, bashing, etc etc, that always came with discussions. Though I'm not without blame as well, there were times when animosity was reciprocated as well. But that was a long time ago. There's no point in trying to have a intelligent conversation with people when they automatically assume that since you're religious, you're obviously stupid. I, personally don't look at the other side in this light but it does get old when they assume the worst of you.

Personally, I'm burnt out trying to witness or explain God/Religion to people. I'm sure it will be my downfall but I figure it's time for someone else to pick up where I've left off. Anymore, I just want to be left alone to live my life. I follow Jesus, try to live as best a Christian life as possible, though I have my stumble moments. But I really couldn't care less if other people find Jesus. I hate saying that, but that's where I'm at in life sometimes. I figure, if people are going to call me stupid for believing in God, then when the time comes and they actually do want to know about him, they can go pick up the Bible and read it for themselves and figure it out.

It troubles my soul deeply, but I'm to the point of not caring anymore. I'll never lose faith in Jesus but I've lost it in Man...

[madvlad]

Don't waste your time MadVlad. It took me a very long time to just forget trying to talk religion on this forum. With the constant ridicule, mocking, bashing, etc etc, that always came with discussions. Though I'm not without blame as well, there were times when animosity was reciprocated as well. But that was a long time ago. There's no point in trying to have a intelligent conversation with people when they automatically assume that since you're religious, you're obviously stupid. I, personally don't look at the other side in this light but it does get old when they assume the worst of you.

Personally, I'm burnt out trying to witness or explain God/Religion to people. I'm sure it will be my downfall but I figure it's time for someone else to pick up where I've left off. Anymore, I just want to be left alone to live my life. I follow Jesus, try to live as best a Christian life as possible, though I have my stumble moments. But I really couldn't care less if other people find Jesus. I hate saying that, but that's where I'm at in life sometimes. I figure, if people are going to call me stupid for believing in God, then when the time comes and they actually do want to know about him, they can go pick up the Bible and read it for themselves and figure it out.

It troubles my soul deeply, but I'm to the point of not caring anymore. I'll never lose faith in Jesus but I've lost it in Man...

Know the feeling, though I know we should speak of the word, I just figured if God doesn't mess with freewill then why should I? But then they may hear or read this type of reaction and say "well, wow what type of selfish Christian are you?"... well the same "selfish" one that you disregard and judge more than life day by day. To each its own, the view of Christianity and its practice is ridiculously skewed and just altered so churches that are more businesses have a lot to do with being at fault with this and also the fact that society is more and more accepting of the wrong each day. At this rate, killing, raping, kidnapping will be as normal as the morning drive... oh no wait, it already is due to the world being OK with it. I'm not a follow the crowd and go with the flow type person, I will stand by what I believe forever even if it cost me my life/freedom which I am sure soon enough that'll be the case as each day more and more judging is coming down on Christians and it'll become persecution.

[Drano]

I'm a member of the LDS church and served a two year mission which, at times, included knocking on doors. I can't speak for every missionary from my church, but if a person didn't want to hear what I had to say I didn't take it personally, I simply moved on. My desire was to help people if they wanted it. Personally, I never approached people with the perspective that they need to hear what I'm sharing. Sadly, I did know some missionaries that could be overbearing and pushy. If you encountered missionaries like that, I can only apologize.

It is my opinion that trying to sell religion like a Kirby Vacuum salesman is a good way to piss people off. Even though I don't think I approached people that way, I still got to experience their anger first-hand. Believe me, I've had beer bottles and rocks thrown at me, dogs sicced on me, I've been spit upon, chased off, cursed at, etc. by people that didn't know me personally, but took offense simply because I knocked on their door or was walking in their neighborhood.

It's baffling to me that a person would seethe with hatred for any person who, from their perspective, has found something which made an improvement in their life and wants to share it with others in the hope that it may improve their life as well. It's perfectly acceptable to disagree with their methods, but to hate them without knowing them? That's the very definition of bigotry.

[Wrider]

I'm a member of the LDS church and served a two year mission which, at times, included knocking on doors. I can't speak for every missionary from my church, but if a person didn't want to hear what I had to say I didn't take it personally, I simply moved on. My desire was to help people if they wanted it. Personally, I never approached people with the perspective that they need to hear what I'm sharing. Sadly, I did know some missionaries that could be overbearing and pushy. If you encountered missionaries like that, I can only apologize.

It is my opinion that trying to sell religion like a Kirby Vacuum salesman is a good way to piss people off. Even though I don't think I approached people that way, I still got to experience their anger first-hand. Believe me, I've had beer bottles and rocks thrown at me, dogs sicced on me, I've been spit upon, chased off, cursed at, etc. by people that didn't know me personally, but took offense simply because I knocked on their door or was walking in their neighborhood.

It's baffling to me that a person would seethe with hatred for any person who, from their perspective, has found something which made an improvement in their life and wants to share it with others in the hope that it may improve their life as well. It's perfectly acceptable to disagree with their methods, but to hate them without knowing them? That's the very definition of bigotry.


Keep in mind that a lot of times it's because it seems as if the LDS church (and others mind you) are trying to force their religion on us by going door to door, and asking to share their beliefs with us. I'm sure you're just trying to help from your perspective, but it gets irritating to be doing something (like sleeping when working an overnight shift) then have to answer the door just to hear someone telling you something you've already heard.

I have plenty of experience in this myself, as there is a LDS and a Jehovah's Witness Temple within 2 miles of my house, and every summer I get at LEAST 10 people from each religion knocking on the door or trying to talk to me when I'm just out taking my dog for a walk.

[Drano]

Keep in mind that a lot of times it's because it seems as if the LDS church (and others mind you) are trying to force their religion on us by going door to door, and asking to share their beliefs with us. I'm sure you're just trying to help from your perspective, but it gets irritating to be doing something (like sleeping when working an overnight shift) then have to answer the door just to hear someone telling you something you've already heard.

I have plenty of experience in this myself, as there is a LDS and a Jehovah's Witness Temple within 2 miles of my house, and every summer I get at LEAST 10 people from each religion knocking on the door or trying to talk to me when I'm just out taking my dog for a walk.

I express my sympathy to you that you have had to endure that. For the most part, missionaries should be keeping track of addresses that have expressed disinterest in hearing what they have to say. They may check back in a year or so, but they should leave you in peace. Sadly, some missionaries can be less diligent in keeping accurate records.

Interesting factoid, I served my mission from 1998-2000 and even back then, one of the least effective methods, statistically, for finding people interested in discussing with missionaries was approaching them door-to-door or on the street. In some places the missionaries are prohibited by the church to do so. It's generally understood that missionaries can find something more useful to do with their time than spend it going door-to-door. Most missionaries would much rather be speaking to a person that has approached them than the opposite. They are, however, encouraged to speak to anyone they encounter if they are not otherwise occupied.

It's my opinion that going door-to-door is an outdated practice. Today, if a person wants to know something, they can look it up online. I think the day will soon come that the only time you will have Mormon missionaries knocking on your door is if you personally requested that they come by.

[bornwildnfree]

For those of you that haven't been to my house for one of my meetups or parties, there are three topics of conversation I generally don't allow because of how heated they get: Politics, Religion, and to a lesser degree non-motorcycle related sports. I don't talk about what I believe unless directly asked because well, my relationship with the deity of my choice is no one's business but my own, and other people's are theirs.

There are some residual beliefs that were left over from a very strict religious upbringing and this article challenged one of those beliefs, showed me a different viewpoint that is more in line with my other adult beliefs about God and changed the way I believe. That doesn't happen very often.

Everyone gets to post their political threads, and sports threads and funny threads. This was the one, and probably only time you will ever see me post something about religion, but I felt strongly enough about his, and now my, viewpoint that I felt it needed to be shared. I even sent it to my mother and I'm sure the fallout from that will make the stuff on this forum look like child's play lol. Thanks for listening :-)

[Ghost]

I just figured if God doesn't mess with freewill then why should I?

Fail.

[The Black Knight]

For those of you that haven't been to my house for one of my meetups or parties, there are three topics of conversation I generally don't allow because of how heated they get: Politics, Religion, and to a lesser degree non-motorcycle related sports. I don't talk about what I believe unless directly asked because well, my relationship with the deity of my choice is no one's business but my own, and other people's are theirs.

There are some residual beliefs that were left over from a very strict religious upbringing and this article challenged one of those beliefs, showed me a different viewpoint that is more in line with my other adult beliefs about God and changed the way I believe. That doesn't happen very often.

Everyone gets to post their political threads, and sports threads and funny threads. This was the one, and probably only time you will ever see me post something about religion, but I felt strongly enough about his, and now my, viewpoint that I felt it needed to be shared. I even sent it to my mother and I'm sure the fallout from that will make the stuff on this forum look like child's play lol. Thanks for listening :-)
On the topic of what the young man presented. I'm still going to have to respectfully disagree with him. Because for me, I've found way more than six verses that deal with the immorality of what he was speaking. And while he did spend a good deal of time, he didn't spend enough.

For lack of a better term, I could blast his argument to pieces just using Biblical scriptures. He talks about traditionalist taking things out of context. I watched the entire 1 hour and 7 minutes of his video and to me, he took several verses way out of context. But what he really needs to do, is take a Bible and a Strong's Concordance and seriously take the time to sit down and cross reference a lot of what he is trying to say.

And the only reason I'm saying he sound do this, is because I did it in my church school growing up. We covered many many issues that the Bible speaks of, not just homosexuality. We cross referenced the Sabbath, Dietary Laws, Sacrificial Laws, Trinity/Godhead, Second Coming and etc. etc(the list really is too long). And maybe it's a little easier for me to find things within the Bible, because from my earliest memories I remember being in church school, in church and/or reading the Bible. I was born a Seventh-day Adventist and it had been the only source of my education when I grew up.

And I'm not picking on the young man, I know what he's trying to get across and what he's trying to say. Ultimately I believe it's between him and God. I know he's trying to justify his position and what he believes he's been born with. You know, that's where I can't agree with the young man, I don't believe he was born that way and until the day I die, I believe it's a lifestyle choice. Because of my 25+ years of reading the Bible tells me it is.

I know it's a delicate subject and I really feel bad for the young man in the video. I can see he's still searching for some answers. I hope he finds them. Like I say, I'm glad it's between him and God, because ultimately that's where it ends for all of us. Between us and God and no one else. Christ makes the final call on everything in life.

My personal opinion, do I believe there will be homosexuals in Heaven?? Yes, some. Do I believe there will be "practicing" homosexuals in Heaven?? No, not a chance. Not according to what the Bible has to say about it, because Sin cannot exist in the presence of God.

[modette99]

Confused about what? Pretty self explanatory first sentence... but i'll just please you and tell you what you want to hear and bash away if you must, I am a Jesus loving, bible hugging, honk if you love Jesus type person and not ashamed of it... and no worries on the door knocking lol

I guess you missed that I was joking unless you do really eat babies!!! Now I am worried.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_F5HfHzMzGqI/TTjQOZVfYzI/AAAAAAAAAkg/r_XSen68B-4/s1600/spaghetti-costume.jpg

[Kim-n-Dean]

Ah, religion! The ultimate I.Q. test...

Since we have so many of 'faith' here, I'm going to make you all an excellent offer. I'm the best investment banker in Denver. Give me all of your money and just have faith that I'll make more for you. Since I can prove that I exist, you should have no problem giving me all of your money.

And for those of you that don't believe in me... you're all going to Hell!!!:devil2:

Barn - As soon as I get a few takers, let's go hit Ameristar!

[madvlad]

Oh, well didn't know you were... kind of hard to tell since I've heard that one before and not in a jokingly manner either.

[Darth Do'Urden]

Black knight and Madvlad...two examples that we Christians aren't a bunch of ignorant, unintelligent, stupid-because-we-have-faith (as Kim-n-Dean would suggest), bigoted, "gay-hating" morons.

Are there bad apples in the body of Christ (represented by the Church)? Absolutely. Just as there's bad apples in the motorcycle community, the art community, charitable organizations, community outreaches...and GOOD apples in politics. It's wholeheartedly disingenuous to judge the whole group by the few freaks and retards that happen to go out of their way to make the truth of the matter seem stupid (Westboro Baptist Church in the case of Christianity).

As to homosexuality, as BK pointed out, there are enough biblical scriptures (IN context) that condemn the PRACTICE of homosexuality that to defend homosexuality as being as irrelevant and outdated (or culturally inapplicable) as women not cutting their hair is equally disingenuous and purposely putting blinders on in order to justify one's sin. But the same can also be said of adultery, fornication (sex outside of marriage), drunkenness (not the same as "consuming alcohol"), slanderous speech, et al. Sin is sin.

Now whether you choose to believe there IS sin is entirely up to you as an individual with free will. But one cannot simply pick-and-choose what they like out of the Holy Bible and apply it as they see fit (as one might with makeup or clothing). Are certain things possibly dependent on interpretation? Sure, but these are generally called "parables". But when the Bible clearly states (again, within context as well as understanding of cultures) that something is a sin, it's a sin...AND there's a reason it's a sin. God doesn't just make this crap up because He just really enjoys watching His creation fight and argue and generally suffer. There are serious physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual (whether you believe it or not) implications to every sin that God warns against. It doesn't take a genius or Christian to see the consequences of sinful behavior.

As for sharing one's faith: the Bible warns us (as believers) to not "hide our light under a bushel", that is to not hide our faith or shy away from sharing as though we were embarrassed, ashamed, or fearful of what others might think. This is NOT the same as aggressively aggravating people to the point that they can't stand being around us--I think everyone agrees that this approach is hardly "being an effective witness". In my experience, as well as Jesus' examples, the most effective approach in sharing the truth and LOVE of God and Jesus is to form personal relationships with people, and to live one's life above reproach, all the while giving glory and honor to God in every aspect of one's life. This does NOT mean we are above screwing up (sometimes in a HUGE way). What it means is that I live what I say I believe. As a result, others will see that, and for some a seed will be planted in their lives, perhaps to someday grow into the amazing flower that God intended. My job is to be the best ambassador for Christ that I can be. Maybe that means speaking a word of godly encouragement to someone that's hurting, maybe that means telling someone that they're on a hell-bound path. But the biggest factor in all this is learning to listen to God to know WHEN and to WHOM a particular word should be spoken.

But NOT sharing at all simply because someone might not like it...that's a slippery slope that can go bad either way. Jesus warned us that we would be persecuted for our faith in Him. That's fine when it's genuinely earned without our seeking it. But doing things that we KNOW are not received well (door-to-door approaches, springing on someone on the street...many televangelists) does not qualify as "being persecuted for one's faith"...it's just "being persecuted for being a douche".

And just for the record, MOST Christians do NOT hate homosexuals, or even DISLIKE them. They are people, sinful and selfish just like me. But they are people deserving of love, compassion, kindness, and forgiveness...just like me. The difference is that people who practice homosexuality want their sin to be accepted and justified, tying their behavior to who they are as a person. That simply cannot be. Acceptance as a person, yes. But not acceptance of the sin anymore than adultery can be accepted by the church. This doesn't mean someone should be exorcised from the Church (as certain groups are fond of doing), but it does mean that guidance AWAY from the sinful behavior should be given in love and grace. Whether that guidance and counsel is accepted is entirely on the individual.

But God's love and grace and forgiveness is there for all. It's just that He won't force it on anyone. Just don't blame Him for the consequences suffered should you choose to reject Him. It's like law enforcement: don't blame "The Man" when you get caught breaking the law. It's not their fault you broke the law, it's yours. You may not agree with the law, but to disregard it WILL incur consequences.

[#1Townie]

I fucking hate people that mess with peoples religious beliefs. Who the Fuck is anyone on this forum to talk down to all for having some sort of faith. I don't do church or any of that. I don't think any one religion is better or worse but if its what helps people get through tough times then so fucking be it. As for making ignorant ass statements like the iq test can take a faithful leap off a tall cliff. Maybe its not gos. Maybe its nothing. Maybe its aliens. Whatever the Fuck it is I hope its better than this pathetic world of hate and anger.

[Wrider]

I have a very different view of faith than most people do. I used to be fairly religious. I went weekly to a service, I was the unofficial sign interpreter there for a few of the deaf guys who wanted to go, all of that.
Now? Not so much. Haven't been to church in years, even though a couple of friends of mine are highly religious. Just not my thing anymore due to what I've seen, what I've experienced, and what my thought processes are like.

To each their own in my book, and as long as you respect it for me, I'll respect it for you. Now for the next couple of missionaries who come knocking at my door, I have a robe, a set of handcuffs to swing around, and a very convincing "Damn, you missionary strippers are getting more and more realistic every month!" to play with!

[biikChiQ]

Black knight and Madvlad...two examples that we Christians aren't a bunch of ignorant, unintelligent, stupid-because-we-have-faith (as Kim-n-Dean would suggest), bigoted, "gay-hating" morons.

Are there bad apples in the body of Christ (represented by the Church)? Absolutely. Just as there's bad apples in the motorcycle community, the art community, charitable organizations, community outreaches...and GOOD apples in politics. It's wholeheartedly disingenuous to judge the whole group by the few freaks and retards that happen to go out of their way to make the truth of the matter seem stupid (Westboro Baptist Church in the case of Christianity).

As to homosexuality, as BK pointed out, there are enough biblical scriptures (IN context) that condemn the PRACTICE of homosexuality that to defend homosexuality as being as irrelevant and outdated (or culturally inapplicable) as women not cutting their hair is equally disingenuous and purposely putting blinders on in order to justify one's sin. But the same can also be said of adultery, fornication (sex outside of marriage), drunkenness (not the same as "consuming alcohol"), slanderous speech, et al. Sin is sin.

Now whether you choose to believe there IS sin is entirely up to you as an individual with free will. But one cannot simply pick-and-choose what they like out of the Holy Bible and apply it as they see fit (as one might with makeup or clothing). Are certain things possibly dependent on interpretation? Sure, but these are generally called "parables". But when the Bible clearly states (again, within context as well as understanding of cultures) that something is a sin, it's a sin...AND there's a reason it's a sin. God doesn't just make this crap up because He just really enjoys watching His creation fight and argue and generally suffer. There are serious physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual (whether you believe it or not) implications to every sin that God warns against. It doesn't take a genius or Christian to see the consequences of sinful behavior.

As for sharing one's faith: the Bible warns us (as believers) to not "hide our light under a bushel", that is to not hide our faith or shy away from sharing as though we were embarrassed, ashamed, or fearful of what others might think. This is NOT the same as aggressively aggravating people to the point that they can't stand being around us--I think everyone agrees that this approach is hardly "being an effective witness". In my experience, as well as Jesus' examples, the most effective approach in sharing the truth and LOVE of God and Jesus is to form personal relationships with people, and to live one's life above reproach, all the while giving glory and honor to God in every aspect of one's life. This does NOT mean we are above screwing up (sometimes in a HUGE way). What it means is that I live what I say I believe. As a result, others will see that, and for some a seed will be planted in their lives, perhaps to someday grow into the amazing flower that God intended. My job is to be the best ambassador for Christ that I can be. Maybe that means speaking a word of godly encouragement to someone that's hurting, maybe that means telling someone that they're on a hell-bound path. But the biggest factor in all this is learning to listen to God to know WHEN and to WHOM a particular word should be spoken.

But NOT sharing at all simply because someone might not like it...that's a slippery slope that can go bad either way. Jesus warned us that we would be persecuted for our faith in Him. That's fine when it's genuinely earned without our seeking it. But doing things that we KNOW are not received well (door-to-door approaches, springing on someone on the street...many televangelists) does not qualify as "being persecuted for one's faith"...it's just "being persecuted for being a douche".

And just for the record, MOST Christians do NOT hate homosexuals, or even DISLIKE them. They are people, sinful and selfish just like me. But they are people deserving of love, compassion, kindness, and forgiveness...just like me. The difference is that people who practice homosexuality want their sin to be accepted and justified, tying their behavior to who they are as a person. That simply cannot be. Acceptance as a person, yes. But not acceptance of the sin anymore than adultery can be accepted by the church. This doesn't mean someone should be exorcised from the Church (as certain groups are fond of doing), but it does mean that guidance AWAY from the sinful behavior should be given in love and grace. Whether that guidance and counsel is accepted is entirely on the individual.

But God's love and grace and forgiveness is there for all. It's just that He won't force it on anyone. Just don't blame Him for the consequences suffered should you choose to reject Him. It's like law enforcement: don't blame "The Man" when you get caught breaking the law. It's not their fault you broke the law, it's yours. You may not agree with the law, but to disregard it WILL incur consequences.

+1

[Nick_Ninja]

:roll:

[Jmetz]

You guys should do some DMT.

[Kim-n-Dean]

Free will, my ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God created this world and told Adam, and eventually, Eve, to not eat from the tree of life/knowledge. ...And what did those fuckers do on the first chance that they had?!?!? They pulled down an apple, because a snake told them too, and macked out on that bad boy!! Since god is omnipotent or omniscient, he knew what was going to happen before he even got bored and created this horse shit world. Therefore, my life was determined by this asshole before I was even born. The fact that I choose to rape and pillage is not the point. god knew before I was even born what path I would take. Religious free will is an illusion. Just because you don't know what is going to happen, doesn't make it free will. I never asked to be born, why do I have to follow this absurdity?!?!?!? If there is a Heaven, it's full of a bunch of gullible dip shits!!! If I was god, I would prefer to be surrounded by people who can think for themselves, people who apply logic to any given situation...

So, I take it that no one is going to invest in me? Come on people, even god got it wrong on the first try. "The Old Testament". That's why we have the new, more civilized 'New Testament'.

Besides, would you really want to follow someone who invested all his knowledge in a bunch of goat hearders in the middle of the desert? If your wife came home 'knocked-up" and claimed it was "immaculate".... come on!!!! We know how this would go down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[madvlad]

Lol man... I shall stop here, good luck with the discussion ladies and gents.

[Drano]

Lol man... I shall stop here, good luck with the discussion ladies and gents.

The discussion ended when intolerance crept into it. :down:

It's pretty sad when a person thinks their subjective beliefs are somehow superior to another person's subjective beliefs. :(

[madvlad]

Lol not judging, they choose and do what they want lol... I will continue on with my bible hugging ways cause it's a positive for my life. Not perfect in any means lol

[#1Townie]

Free will, my ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God created this world and told Adam, and eventually, Eve, to not eat from the tree of life/knowledge. ...And what did those fuckers do on the first chance that they had?!?!? They pulled down an apple, because a snake told them too, and macked out on that bad boy!! Since god is omnipotent or omniscient, he knew what was going to happen before he even got bored and created this horse shit world. Therefore, my life was determined by this asshole before I was even born. The fact that I choose to rape and pillage is not the point. god knew before I was even born what path I would take. Religious free will is an illusion. Just because you don't know what is going to happen, doesn't make it free will. I never asked to be born, why do I have to follow this absurdity?!?!?!? If there is a Heaven, it's full of a bunch of gullible dip shits!!! If I was god, I would prefer to be surrounded by people who can think for themselves, people who apply logic to any given situation...

So, I take it that no one is going to invest in me? Come on people, even god got it wrong on the first try. "The Old Testament". That's why we have the new, more civilized 'New Testament'.

Besides, would you really want to follow someone who invested all his knowledge in a bunch of goat hearders in the middle of the desert? If your wife came home 'knocked-up" and claimed it was "immaculate".... come on!!!! We know how this would go down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And the point to this would be?

[Think]

The discussion ended when intolerance crept into it. :down:

It's pretty sad when a person thinks their subjective beliefs are somehow superior to another person's subjective beliefs. :(
Well, the intolerance is being shared on both ends by certain individuals claiming certain things as absolute.

[Ezzzzy1]

Free will, my ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God created this world and told Adam, and eventually, Eve, to not eat from the tree of life/knowledge. ...And what did those fuckers do on the first chance that they had?!?!? They pulled down an apple, because a snake told them too, and macked out on that bad boy!! Since god is omnipotent or omniscient, he knew what was going to happen before he even got bored and created this horse shit world. Therefore, my life was determined by this asshole before I was even born. The fact that I choose to rape and pillage is not the point. god knew before I was even born what path I would take. Religious free will is an illusion. Just because you don't know what is going to happen, doesn't make it free will. I never asked to be born, why do I have to follow this absurdity?!?!?!? If there is a Heaven, it's full of a bunch of gullible dip shits!!! If I was god, I would prefer to be surrounded by people who can think for themselves, people who apply logic to any given situation...

So, I take it that no one is going to invest in me? Come on people, even god got it wrong on the first try. "The Old Testament". That's why we have the new, more civilized 'New Testament'.

Besides, would you really want to follow someone who invested all his knowledge in a bunch of goat hearders in the middle of the desert? If your wife came home 'knocked-up" and claimed it was "immaculate".... come on!!!! We know how this would go down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dean dont forget... The whole time all of this was going on someone was writing everything down so folks could read about it :lol:

[grim]

IBTL

[Ghost]

Free will, my ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God created this world and told Adam, and eventually, Eve, to not eat from the tree of life/knowledge. ...And what did those fuckers do on the first chance that they had?!?!? They pulled down an apple, because a snake told them too, and macked out on that bad boy!! Since god is omnipotent or omniscient, he knew what was going to happen before he even got bored and created this horse shit world. Therefore, my life was determined by this asshole before I was even born. The fact that I choose to rape and pillage is not the point. god knew before I was even born what path I would take. Religious free will is an illusion. Just because you don't know what is going to happen, doesn't make it free will. I never asked to be born, why do I have to follow this absurdity?!?!?!? If there is a Heaven, it's full of a bunch of gullible dip shits!!! If I was god, I would prefer to be surrounded by people who can think for themselves, people who apply logic to any given situation...

So, I take it that no one is going to invest in me? Come on people, even god got it wrong on the first try. "The Old Testament". That's why we have the new, more civilized 'New Testament'.

Besides, would you really want to follow someone who invested all his knowledge in a bunch of goat hearders in the middle of the desert? If your wife came home 'knocked-up" and claimed it was "immaculate".... come on!!!! We know how this would go down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And the point to this would be?

That you can either have God OR Free Will, but not both.

One precludes the other.

[mxer]

Free will, my ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God created this world and told Adam, and eventually, Eve, to not eat from the tree of life/knowledge. ...And what did those fuckers do on the first chance that they had?!?!? They pulled down an apple, because a snake told them too, and macked out on that bad boy!! Since god is omnipotent or omniscient, he knew what was going to happen before he even got bored and created this horse shit world. Therefore, my life was determined by this asshole before I was even born. The fact that I choose to rape and pillage is not the point. god knew before I was even born what path I would take. Religious free will is an illusion. Just because you don't know what is going to happen, doesn't make it free will. I never asked to be born, why do I have to follow this absurdity?!?!?!? If there is a Heaven, it's full of a bunch of gullible dip shits!!! If I was god, I would prefer to be surrounded by people who can think for themselves, people who apply logic to any given situation...

So, I take it that no one is going to invest in me? Come on people, even god got it wrong on the first try. "The Old Testament". That's why we have the new, more civilized 'New Testament'.

Besides, would you really want to follow someone who invested all his knowledge in a bunch of goat hearders in the middle of the desert? If your wife came home 'knocked-up" and claimed it was "immaculate".... come on!!!! We know how this would go down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are Christians always labeled as bigots when this is the epitome of bigotry? I suggest you do a little research on Christian beliefs before you mock it.

[#1Townie]

That you can either have God OR Free Will, but not both.

One precludes the other.

Faith has nothing to do with logic. No im not saying its one way or the other just that if people want to feel one way its not up to others to change their minds.

[Kim-n-Dean]

Why are Christians always labeled as bigots when this is the epitome of bigotry? I suggest you do a little research on Christian beliefs before you mock it.What facts did I get wrong?

Research? How about twenty years of living "the life" before I figured out it's a fairy tale. I did the church thing until I was twenty-two years old. I attended both Sunday morning services and the night service, as I ran the sound boards and the video boards and did Sunday school between the two morning services. I sang in choir, played drums and saxaphone. Was a "teen-leader" on Wednesday nights at youth group. Was VERY close to our associate pastor and his wife as they were the one's who got me into rock climbing. I know the Bible very well. That's how I now know it's all bull shit!!

Maybe you should do some research on me...

[Wrider]

You all really need to calm down. You believe or you don't or you're somewhere in the middle. No one has the right to push their beliefs (or lack thereof) on anyone else.

[Kim-n-Dean]

Dean dont forget... The whole time all of this was going on someone was writing everything down so folks could read about it :lol:They should have took pictures as well! That way everyone could stop fucking up what Heyzoos and that whore Marry looked like. The Bible says Heyzoos was a man of color with hair like wool. He was born in Egypt, you dumb fucks! Stop painting him as a white guy with long, blond hair!! Marry wasn't white, either!!!

[Kim-n-Dean]

You all really need to calm down. You believe or you don't or you're somewhere in the middle. No one has the right to push their beliefs (or lack thereof) on anyone else.Calm down? Push their beliefs? Not at all. Just stating my opinion...

[CaptGoodvibes]

I'm a closet historian. Religion plays a big part in recorded history. If it helps a person be more kind - because they think they will burn in hell if they behave as an agent of evil - religion is good. If it causes a person to be evil - by smiting people with different beliefs - religion is bad. If a person is naturally kind to others, religion is unnecessary. Belief in a gaseous being of astronomical heft is each person's individual right. As a sciency dude, I rely on results to guide me. I need a miracle every day.

Note: if a person would otherwise be evil were it not for the belief they will burn in hell, they should just be shot.

[CaptGoodvibes]

Dean dont forget... The whole time all of this was going on someone was writing everything down so folks could read about it :lol:

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-10-18/2l9rw48.jpg

:devil2:

[Ghost]

Faith has nothing to do with logic.

Truer words have never been spoken.


No one has the right to push their beliefs (or lack thereof) on anyone else.

Except that faith, by its nature, forces people to think a certain way, and followers of those beliefs manifest their beliefs in the policies, laws, and attitudes that do affect others outside of those beliefs.

If religious belief was restricted to the confines of the church (home, whatever) then it wouldn't be an issue, but it's not.

Politics are influenced by religious mandates, and through politics religious people are pushing their belief on others who don't believe in the nonsense.

If your belief doesn't allow for gay marriage or abortion or whatever controversial topic is banned by your angry sky monster, then don't do those actions.

But, to restrict others who don't share your belief simply because you and your faith don't agree with them is a misapplication of your belief.

The whole "leave everyone to their own thing" fails once the religious start altering secular laws and political policies to coincide with their own religious dictates.

[enabler118]

Truer words have never been spoken.



Except that faith, by its nature, forces people to think a certain way, and followers of those beliefs manifest their beliefs in the policies, laws, and attitudes that do affect others outside of those beliefs.

If religious belief was restricted to the confines of the church (home, whatever) then it wouldn't be an issue, but it's not.

Politics are influenced by religious mandates, and through politics religious people are pushing their belief on others who don't believe in the nonsense.

If your belief doesn't allow for gay marriage or abortion or whatever controversial topic is banned by your angry sky monster, then don't do those actions.

But, to restrict others who don't share your belief simply because you and your faith don't agree with them is a misapplication of your belief.

The whole "leave everyone to their own thing" fails once the religious start altering secular laws and political policies to coincide with their own religious dictates.

Well said, Ghost.

I for one, found Matthew Vines' analysis to be relatively thorough; the fact that he tried to "modernize" the syntax and specific/common meaning of words at the time they were written as a method of understanding true meaning. I'm sure that you've heard of the phrase "lost in translation" or the party game "Telephone"; without becoming a scholar in ancient language he's doing his best to interpret what words meant in the context they were spoken.

Personally, I would urge people to read the text rather than watch the video -- my reasoning is, if you hear something you disagree with you may start forming counter-arguments in your head, thus ignoring what is currently being said. If you read it, however, you can continue where you left off and not miss anything.

The general argument is that though there may be 6 verses that speak of [what could be considered] homosexuality, none of these are specific enough about the practice [of homosexuality as understood today] to necessarily mean that it has been interpreted correctly -- is that enough to deny people the happiness of comfort?

I'm not a theist. My reasoning for this from a young age has been to some extent margin of error; that is, through all of the copying and translations that have occurred over two thousand years, is it possible that the "Word of God" could have been modified, even accidentally? If God is infallible, then man IS fallible, which means anything after the first edition of the Bible is potentially fundamentally flawed, and as a result, requires deep, critical analysis before interpretation. If the popular interpretation is causing people pain, perhaps it is not the correct interpretation.

Like he said at the beginning of the speech: "If we’re taking Jesus seriously that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, then that should cause us to question whether the traditional teaching is correct."

I'd like to clarify one last thing: in the context of this thread my comments have been referring specifically to the Bible, but by no means am I trying to pick on Christians -- it's just the most relevant example based on the context. I'll pick on any religion ;).

[#1Townie]

Lost in translation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ4Pm0N8s78&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Drano]

Except that faith, by its nature, forces people to think a certain way, and followers of those beliefs manifest their beliefs in the policies, laws, and attitudes that do affect others outside of those beliefs.

If religious belief was restricted to the confines of the church (home, whatever) then it wouldn't be an issue, but it's not.

Politics are influenced by religious mandates, and through politics religious people are pushing their belief on others who don't believe in the nonsense.

If your belief doesn't allow for gay marriage or abortion or whatever controversial topic is banned by your angry sky monster, then don't do those actions.

But, to restrict others who don't share your belief simply because you and your faith don't agree with them is a misapplication of your belief.

The whole "leave everyone to their own thing" fails once the religious start altering secular laws and political policies to coincide with their own religious dictates.

I agree with you completely Ghost, and these arguments have existed in modern philosophy for years. Some people have a difficult time reconciling their subjective beliefs with objective truths. For one, I know where my church stands on homosexuality and same-sex marriage, I disagree with their position.

I'm a strong believer in scientific truth. Once a person understands the scientific method and statistics, it gives a whole new understanding concerning what it takes for a scientific theory to gain acceptance as the most correct explanation for happenings in the universe. However, I also believe in God. People who argue that scientific theories such as evolution, or the big bang, will somehow destroy the existence of God simply don't know their history. I.E. Galileo was right, but his discovery didn't destroy people's faith. If science eventually proves that these theories are 100% correct, all that is proven is that the person/people who wrote the bible weren't correct with their explanation of the creation of the universe and man. It won't nullify the entire bible, however, it will may cause people who really think the bible is the actual word of God to reevaluate their beliefs.

To close, people should be able to happily live their lives as long as they are not causing harm to others as a result of their lifestyle. I think all of us here would agree that we don't need somebody else telling us how to live our lives. Whether it be political or religious in nature, if it's not harming anybody, leave them be.

[Kim-n-Dean]

Yeah, you guys are right! Religion causes no harm.

Well... except for fatwa, honor rape, the inquisition, most wars, 911, arranged marriages, ethnic cleansing, human sacrifice, suicide bombings and the catholics really take the cake.... fucking little kids!!!!!!

[#1Townie]

Yeah, you guys are right! Religion causes no harm.

Well... except for fatwa, honor rape, the inquisition, most wars, 911, arranged marriages, ethnic cleansing, human sacrifice, suicide bombings and the catholics really take the cake.... fucking little kids!!!!!!


Yeah because every religious person kills in the name of their god. Just like every gun owner is going to go on a killing spree. Way to go with that one mr iq guy. Bro you don't like religion. Cool. Neither do I. I hope there is something more after this world but I don't think there is. Doesn't mean I can't hope. I feel better about hoping for more and living is like their is no tomorrow. I don't care about religion as long as it leaves me alone. I agree with separation of church and state and hate how politicians forget about that but the people voted them in so screw.