Canyon Carving: Tutorial on R1-Forums

[Ghosty]

<Sorry if repost or you've already seen it. I did a search here first. Might be a good accompanyment to 3D's "Cornering Bible" videos posted today. For us n0obs, heh.>

BIG "KNEE DRAGGING 101" THREAD, from the R1 Forums:

Definitely one of the most in-depth and extensive tutorials that I've found. Incl. detailed instruction, tips, pictures, and commentary from experience riders:

http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171467

http://www.rhapsodydesignsolutions.com/Knee-Dragging-101/DSC_0447.jpg

[Bueller]

From the looks of those pics I dont think I would take too much advise from those guys.

[Ghosty]

Why specifically? Most of the pics are related to the specifics in the text, from the few pages I've read so far. Seems to make sense when put in context of what they're trying to explain. Choosing a line, apex, approach speed, where to look, lean angle, position, etc., etc.

I'd love to hear feedback from you CSC advanced riders who've read this through, rather than risk reading incorrect advice on there...

[cptschlongenheimer]

From the looks of those pics I dont think I would take too much advise from those guys.

+1
Going for max lean on the street... dumb idea. Violates the whole "keep 30% in reserve" principle. Works out fine until the unpredictable happens.

[UglyDogRacing]

Hanging off as much as some of the guys in the pics in that thread on the R1 Forum will attract law enforcement's attention.

[dirkterrell]

My first question to people interested in that topic would be "Why do you want to get your knee down?".

[GuitarX]

I'm not a knee dragger, but I stopped reading when I got to this statement:

"Good knee-dragging corners are VERY hard to come by in the USA."

[asp_125]

I'm not a knee dragger, but I stopped reading when I got to this statement:

"Good knee-dragging corners are VERY hard to come by in the USA."

.. I stopped there, almost as credible as gixxer.com ;)

[Ghosty]

My first question to people interested in that topic would be "Why do you want to get your knee down?".
Just speaking for myself, I don't care about getting the knee down, more just improving riding skills in the twisties. Would like to work on getting faster through corners with more practice, practice, practice.


"Good knee-dragging corners are VERY hard to come by in the USA."
That guy lives in Kentucky, lol. Maybe he needs to research more... http://www.motorcycleroads.us/states/ky.html

Ok, so all of CSC has shit-canned that thread as not credible, so guess just nevermind.

:dunno:

Feel free to post up better info though...

[dirkterrell]

Just speaking for myself, I don't care about getting the knee down, more just improving riding skills in the twisties. Would like to work on getting faster through corners with more practice, practice, practice.


Ok, in my view, that is a much better way of looking at things. Even better would be to focus on getting "better" through corners rather than "faster". If you do that, then speed and perhaps knee dragging will follow. Most of the time I hear people going about dragging a knee, they see it as some affirmation of their riding skills when in reality it shows how poorly they ride, similar to the whole "chicken strips" thing.

If you want to ride faster more comfortably, getting instruction at a track is a good approach. Talk to experienced riders and ride with them. Watch what they do. Have them watch what you do. IMI (http://www.imimotorsports.com/), when it's not busy, is a great place to work on the fundamentals of riding.

[Bueller]

Why specifically? Most of the pics are related to the specifics in the text, from the few pages I've read so far. Seems to make sense when put in context of what they're trying to explain. Choosing a line, apex, approach speed, where to look, lean angle, position, etc., etc.

I'd love to hear feedback from you CSC advanced riders who've read this through, rather than risk reading incorrect advice on there...
I didn't read the text, I don't need to to see that these guys have the body positioning of someone who's whole focus is to get a knee down. The one guy is monkey hanging and severely crossed up and the other while not out of the saddle too far, is still slightly crossed up and his lean angle is too severe, he is begging to crash.
As stated this is a huge red flag for law enforcement and totally unnecessary for the street. I get through the mountains at a good speed (in the corners) without ever sticking my knee out. Body position is the key.
I barely drag my knee on the track, I use it is a gauge as to where I am at in my lean. I drag my bodywork without ever touching my knee.

[Ghosty]

Thx Dirk & Bueller, good info. :)

[UglyDogRacing]

You will get more out of reading either Twist of the Wrist 2 or Sport Riding Techniques than you will from that post, both from more credible authors.

[GuitarX]

Ok, in my view, that is a much better way of looking at things. Even better would be to focus on getting "better" through corners rather than "faster". If you do that, then speed and perhaps knee dragging will follow. Most of the time I hear people going about dragging a knee, they see it as some affirmation of their riding skills when in reality it shows how poorly they ride, similar to the whole "chicken strips" thing.

If you want to ride faster more comfortably, getting instruction at a track is a good approach. Talk to experienced riders and ride with them. Watch what they do. Have them watch what you do. IMI (http://www.imimotorsports.com/), when it's not busy, is a great place to work on the fundamentals of riding.

100% agree with Dirk here. IMHO you want to concentrate on smoothness on the street. Speed will come because the smoother you get the easier it is to cope with all the fun the street has to offer. Riding on the track is much different. You brake harder, you accelerate harder, you take different lines. Being smooth is still key (watch Carlos Checa) but it's a different kind of smooth.

I'm not knocking anyone who touches their knee down on the street, but the place to practice and get good at it is on the track. Then when it becomes old hat to get your knee down it can become part of your street arsenal when you want to push it and have a little "extra" fun.

[BC14]

If I ever were to "get a knee down" on the street, I'd be in serious trouble. I concentrate more on getting to the apex and then throttling out in a smooth, consistent manner than on getting max lean outta the bike.

[Ghosty]

All great advice, thx. I ride in jeans too, no knee-pucks, heh.

I'm thinking the title of that thread (and this one) is misleading as to its primary purpose. Despite the introductory paragraph making it seem like the author has a specific goal of "touching down", I looked at it more as instruction on getting comfortable taking corners safer and faster (than a beginners pace), while improving skill.

I'll definitely read the two Twist/Wrist volumes when Zach929rr sends me the PDF files.

[grim]

I agree with everything said here, I am no expert but i ride in the mountains in my textile pants, i don't focus on how low i can get my bike or close i can get my knee. For me its about the speed i am comfortable with in the corner and following through with it. When i am done with a run I will take a look at my rear and front tire to see where i am making most of my contact and at what angle. I put new tires on the ninja on Saturday and Sunday morning by the time Cornfed and i got done with coal creek i had scrubbed the chicken strips off both sides on the rear, all that matters to me is i can keep the tires down at a good clean angle and i am having fun doing it. A lot of what bueller taught me at IMI has come in handy as well, my body positioning has completely changed so im not so crossed up and i feel much more comfortable when entering and following through a turn.

[GuitarX]

I'll definitely read the two Twist/Wrist volumes when Zach929rr sends me the PDF files.

Ghosty, I think I have the Twist of the Wrist videos in a box hiding in my basement somewhere. You're welcome to borrow them anytime. I think they might be in VHS format though.

[CaptGoodvibes]

Sub'd

draggin' balls...

[Wrider]

I was on a nice relaxed-pace cruise up 24 to WP yesterday because I wanted to go for a relaxed ride and ended up falling in behind some other random rider. We ended up both turning into the same parking lot and he was absolutely shocked that I kept up with him on my bike.
He was on a 2012 ZX6R and much lighter than I am. I'm on an undersprung bike with a wobbly frame and I'm a fatass. I wasn't even working hard to keep up with him and apparently he thought he was fast.
His problem was that he was crossing himself up horribly. When leaning the bike left, his face was typically between the windscreen and the right mirror. Once I pointed that out to him, and he fixed it, he immediately got a whole lot faster with less lean.

[Titus]

Ghosty, I think I have the Twist of the Wrist videos in a box hiding in my basement somewhere. You're welcome to borrow them anytime. I think they might be in VHS format though.

Skip the original Twist video & buy/download the Twist 2 video that came out in the last few years.

The Twist 2 book will be a very good reference too, get that ASAP.

[Zach929rr]

I have body positioning that is far from perfect, however the one time I have gotten knee down on the street I may or may not have been going excessively fast on Poudre. IMO people who are dragging knee on the street may be going a touch fast and/or have awful positioning that is helping them get knee down at a much slower speed.

[CraigB]

this was a very interesting and helpful discussion to read. i'm curious, dirk, as to what you were referring to when you said:


...in reality it shows how poorly they ride, similar to the whole "chicken strips" thing...



i know what chicken strips are. but, i'm not sure i know what you mean when you say that it somehow shows how poorly someone rides. mind elaborating?

[Ghosty]

The attitude of some that they have to "prove themselves" as not being squids, by getting rid of the chicken strips as soon as possible to show they don't just ride in a straight line, lol. Maybe comparing that to people who feel they need to "scrape knee" for the same reason.

[Zach929rr]

this was a very interesting and helpful discussion to read. i'm curious, dirk, as to what you were referring to when you said:



i know what chicken strips are. but, i'm not sure i know what you mean when you say that it somehow shows how poorly someone rides. mind elaborating?

Someone with "strips" can be much quicker than someone without due to proper body positioning.

[dirkterrell]

i know what chicken strips are. but, i'm not sure i know what you mean when you say that it somehow shows how poorly someone rides. mind elaborating?

What Zach said. Wear to the edge of the tires is not a reliable indicator of how well or fast someone rides.

[Slo]

+1, I was one of those that would walk around and look at front/back tires to determine if they knew how to ride.

That is....until I learned more, Mike Applehans mentioned something about that (how chicken strips dont mean anything) a long time ago and it was definitely true.

[grim]

I was tought that you want to try and get good full contact all the way around the tire so that you have a nice even wear all the way around and you don't start getting a flat spot in the center which can throw you off when leaning into a turn. Is this not correct?

[Titus]

What Zach said. Wear to the edge of the tires is not a reliable indicator of how well or fast someone rides.


+1

All things being equal; speed, line, etc., a rider with proper body positioning will have a more upright bike around the corner (and have bigger chicken strips) than a rider with poor body positioning.

The rider with good body position will also have less knee contact with the ground too.

[Titus]

I was tought that you want to try and get good full contact all the way around the tire so that you have a nice even wear all the way around and you don't start getting a flat spot in the center which can throw you off when leaning into a turn. Is this not correct?


I don't think they're worried about getting a flat spot at a certain lean angle. If that was a problem the tire must be waaaaay too soft for the given race.

The better the body positioning a rider has, the more upright he can keep the bike for any given corner speed. Therefore, bigger contact patch = more traction = more corner speed.

[dirkterrell]

I was tought that you want to try and get good full contact all the way around the tire so that you have a nice even wear all the way around and you don't start getting a flat spot in the center which can throw you off when leaning into a turn. Is this not correct?

That's what dual-compound tires are for. :) If you're developing a flat spot in the center, you're probably commuting a lot. If you're riding curves a lot, I don't think you need to worry about flat spots. My street bikes have about 1/4" or so of chicken strips because I like to keep some reserve in case I come up on something that requires tightening the turn. The race bike's tires are worn to the edge since I'm not worried about that reserve.

I can only recall putting my knee down once on the street. Diego and I were riding down highway 7 one day at a reasonable clip and it was very windy. I was leaned over in a right hander and a big gust came from the left, pushing me into my lean reserve. I used my knee to stop it from pushing me too far. The lesson there was that I was going to fast for the conditions (following an 848 on the VFR) but I did have the reserve to keep it from turning into a bad situation.

Another lesson I can share is my last crash on the street and it was probably before some of you were even born (1986). :) On my 500 Interceptor I came into a turn that I had taken probably a thousand times and I was little too hot. The bad thing was that I was also being lazy with my body positioning, so I was basically sitting upright. I realized I needed to tighten the turn so I leaned some more. I was used to older bikes with 18" front wheels that would start complaining when you approached the lean limit. The older Interceptors, with those 16" front wheels, are smooth as silk right up to the point where the front washes out. Being upright, I hit the limit and went sliding. If I had had my body in the right position, I would have been able to make the turn while trying to find something in the tank bag. Since then, I have been in the habit of getting my body shifted to the inside, even through moderate turns, just in case.

[GuitarX]

Another lesson I can share is my last crash on the street and it was probably before some of you were even born (1986). :)

Dirk, I'm guessing tire technology has progressed to the point over the last 26 years where you probably wouldn't have that same accident in 2012 lol! :eyebrows:

[dirkterrell]

Dirk, I'm guessing tire technology has progressed to the point over the last 26 years where you probably wouldn't have that same accident in 2012 lol! :eyebrows:

Tires and brakes have definitely made huge strides in that time, no doubt.

[Ghosty]

If you're developing a flat spot in the center, you're probably commuting a lot.
That's probably what the prior owner of my bike did. My rear tire was close to bald when I bought it, but only in the center. In fact it's flat or shallow all the way around the center. I've put about 500 miles on it in the last few weeks, found a nail jammed in it last night, so need a new tire for sure (today's project).

[Zanatos]

Why do so many riders seem to fixate on who can lean harder and ride faster? It makes sense at the track, but why would anyone want to ride at the limits of their abilities on public roads? Is it a death wish, a need to rack up as many traffic tickets as possible, or a deep desire to piss off everyone else on the road and give motorcyclists a bad image?

[kawasakirob]

Hahaha! I almost crashed when I first touched knee. My slider was not in the right place so my leathers caught a little bit, and also because it startled me pretty bad. Geez I'm lucky I didn't die. I learned to go fast on Berthoud....not the best choice. Crashed twice, destroyed 2 bikes and have had way to many close calls. I learned the hard way to go kinda fast, definitely was not the smartest. After going to some tracks, it's almost crazy thinking about how much I pushed myself on the street. Not worth it....but fun nonetheless. Dragging a knee is a very rewarding aspect of riding a sport bike, especially when it's done smoothly. But with the added speed/lean/concentration there comes more consequence if a mistake is made. Enjoy the ride on/off the track but there is obviously more "hazards" when ripping around on a canyon road, but to some people, that's just as fun if not more fun than riding on the track.