Drones

[#1Townie]

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/06/04/police-military-conduct-surveillance-drones-warrant-140851/

[Ghost]

Surprise?

[salsashark]

They're watching you... :shock:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/06/64-drone-bases-on-us-soil/



Now let's just see which side the gov really cares about...

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/06/senate-bill-aims-to-crack-down-on-domestic-drone-surveillance/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+arstechnica%2Findex+%28Ars+Te chnica+-+All+content%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher


Actually, the armed drones are tuned to only detect, identify and target individuals with a propensity for skittles and snapple. So, are you safe? :lol:


Oh, and IBT this entire thread gets blanketed in tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists...

[Ghosty]

"It's also worth noting that HOUSE REPUBLICANS declined (they voted down) to amend the NDAA protecting U.S. citizens from indefinite detention without charge, representation, or trial."

Huge thread with a ton of recent links about this subject (Drones vs. Americans), while circumventing the Constitution, privacy, warrants, etc.:

http://forums.coloradoracing.net/index.php?/topic/132071-i-3-drones-in-american-skies/page__p__942048__hl__drones__fromsearch__1#entry94 2048

CYCLEMONKEY WILL LIKE THIS PIC. Nice Obama emblems, LOL:

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/166040_468883293128864_198592273491302_105374992_1 937362439_n.jpg

Next up?...

http://scm-l3.technorati.com/11/04/20/32053/skynet.jpg?t=20110420200649

[SNAFU]

Well I'm not a big believer in the freedom of privacy. If there is a drone on every street corner maybe dumb shits will stop cutting me off while commuting specially if they have ASM. Rather deal with a drone than stupid people.

[asp_125]

You are already on security cameras half a dozen times every day: gas stations, offices, malls, stores, intersections.. etc. Privacy is only an illusion. What's a few more drones? :dunno:

[Ghost]

"It's also worth noting that HOUSE REPUBLICANS declined (they voted down) to amend the NDAA protecting U.S. citizens from indefinite detention without charge, representation, or trial."

Huge thread with a ton of recent links about this subject (Drones vs. Americans), while circumventing the Constitution, privacy, warrants, etc.:

http://forums.coloradoracing.net/index.php?/topic/132071-i-3-drones-in-american-skies/page__p__942048__hl__drones__fromsearch__1#entry94 2048

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/166040_468883293128864_198592273491302_105374992_1 937362439_n.jpg

Next up?...

http://scm-l3.technorati.com/11/04/20/32053/skynet.jpg?t=20110420200649


Technology is neither good nor evil, technology used against a country's citizens for no reason other than to pad corporate pockets while destroying any remaining vestiges of Freedoms and Rights is an abuse of that technology and is definitely immoral.

But, we're fucked since we've no power to change anything...

[tecknojoe]

It's illegal to use military assets to spy on americans on US soil, so is any of this usable in court?

and do you really think they care what time you farted or cleaned your bong? No, they are after bigger shit.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

It's in a blog so it MUST be true!

Well, I have an issue with spying on people, but if it's a view available to the public, then you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. Now, if you're on the 2nd or higher floor in an apt. building and the drone see what cannot be seen from the ground etc., now I have a problem. As mentioned, the feds have no interest in when you farted or cleaned your bong. A lot of nasty crimes and their criminals are caught on video, so I'm actually for cameras in public places.

[salsashark]

It's illegal to use military assets to spy on americans on US soil, so is any of this usable in court?

and do you really think they care what time you farted or cleaned your bong? No, they are after bigger shit.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant...

[tecknojoe]

Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant...

:lol: :horse:


damn extremist hippies

[Zach929rr]

Well I'm not a big believer in the freedom of privacy. If there is a drone on every street corner maybe dumb shits will stop cutting me off while commuting specially if they have ASM. Rather deal with a drone than stupid people.

Hope you get hit by a truck.

[salsashark]

You are already on security cameras half a dozen times every day: gas stations, offices, malls, stores, intersections.. etc. Privacy is only an illusion. What's a few more drones? :dunno:


Technology is neither good nor evil, technology used against a country's citizens for no reason other than to pad corporate pockets while destroying any remaining vestiges of Freedoms and Rights is an abuse of that technology and is definitely immoral.

But, we're fucked since we've no power to change anything...

+1 on the above

How many times have you heard about the police using security footage from privately owned cameras?

Do you have any frequent shopper discount cards? What do you ACTUALLY think they're for? Do you think the stores really care about offering you the best deal? Nope, they are for purchase tracking and trending so they know what to stock. Hear about the dad who found out his teenage daughter was pregnant because target sent her a bunch of prenatal stuff after data mining her purchases?

Is your company tracking how often you're on the CSC?

Geico wants to give you a discount for tracking your automotive habits? Do you think it's to truly benefit you? Or do you think it may just be that you've given them the telemetry and an excuse to deny that accident claim?

How do you think Google posts live traffic conditions? It's because your android smart phone is sending info back to them constantly. So next time you side step a red spot on the map, thank you're fellow smartphone owner. And this is probably the least offensive thing Google does with your data.

Privacy? :lol: what's that.

[Ghosty]

It's illegal to use military assets to spy on americans on US soil, so is any of this usable in court?
I'm curious too, as to the validity of the things mentioned in that blog/article:


New documents obtained from the US military by CBS news in Los Angeles reveals that the United States military is using drones to conduct aerial surveillance operations over US soil, which by itself is illegal with a few exceptions. Once the military collects this data it is then being shared with law enforcement agencies that normally would be required to obtain a warrant to collect such information.

Normally these agencies would be required to obtain a court warrant to be able conduct such surveillance operations on their own behalf. But since the information is being provided by a 3rd party who gained access to the information that was not required to obtain a warrant law enforcement agencies are able to use surveillance with military drones as legal loophole to circumvent the Constitutional protections that prevent such practices.

The document contains vague language that permits use of military drones in to assist local, state and federal law enforcement for the purposes of “preventing, detecting, or investigating other violations of law.”

The document also outlines in vague terms conditions which allows the Air Force to share intelligence information collected by military drones during routine operations with local, state and federal law enforcement agencies.

In any of these cases the 4th Amendment Protections Against illegal search and seizure and 5th amendment Due Process violations are being committed illegally by law enforcement and the military.

[Ghost]

+1 on the above

How many times have you heard about the police using security footage from privately owned cameras?

Do you have any frequent shopper discount cards? What do you ACTUALLY think they're for? Do you think the stores really care about offering you the best deal? Nope, they are for purchase tracking and trending so they know what to stock. Hear about the dad who found out his teenage daughter was pregnant because target sent her a bunch of prenatal stuff after data mining her purchases?

Is your company tracking how often you're on the CSC?

Geico wants to give you a discount for tracking your automotive habits? Do you think it's to truly benefit you? Or do you think it may just be that you've given them the telemetry and an excuse to deny that accident claim?

How do you think Google posts live traffic conditions? It's because your android smart phone is sending info back to them constantly. So next time you side step a red spot on the map, thank you're fellow smartphone owner. And this is probably the least offensive thing Google does with your data.

Privacy? :lol: what's that.

Don't forget the RFID chips in everything--including your new Electronic Passport, your soon-to-be-required "Real ID" citizen card and nearly every product you buy anywhere.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/traffic/realid.asp


Back to drones:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/14/opinion/rand-paul-drones/index.html




Editor's note: Rand Paul, a Republican, is a U.S. senator from Kentucky.
(CNN)

-- When assuming office, every government official must take an oath to abide by and uphold our Constitution. Since 2010, I have made that my mission in Congress. Unfortunately, the Obama administration is not upholding nor abiding by the Constitution -- in fact, this administration is going to great lengths to continually violate it.

Its most recent transgression involves the use of domestic drones.
These small drones are to be used as a crime fighting tool for law enforcement officials. But is unwarranted and constant surveillance by an aerial eye of Big Government the answer?

In a memorandum issued by President Barack Obama's secretary of the Air Force, the stated purpose of these drones is "balancing ... obtaining intelligence information ... and protecting individual rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution."

However, flying over our homes, farms, ranches and businesses and spying on us while we conduct our everyday lives is not an example of protecting our rights. It is an example of violating them.

The domestic use of drones to spy on Americans clearly violates the Fourth Amendment and limits our rights to personal privacy. I do not want a drone hovering over my house, taking photos of whether I separate my recyclables from my garbage.

Poll: Don't use drones for speeding tickets (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/13/poll-catching-criminals-is-fine-but-dont-use-drones-for-speeding-tickets-americans-say/?hpt=hp_c1)

When I have friends over for a barbecue, the government drone is not on the invitation list. I do not want a drone monitoring where I go, what I do and for how long I do whatever it is that I'm doing. I do not want a nanny state watching over my every move.

We should not be treated like criminals or terrorists while we are simply conducting our everyday lives. We should not have our rights infringed upon by unwarranted police-state tactics.

I have introduced legislation into the Senate that restates the Constitution.

This bill protects individual privacy against unwarranted governmental intrusion through the use of these drones. The Preserving Freedom from Unwarranted Surveillance Act of 2012 will protect Americans' personal privacy by forcing the government to honor our Fourth Amendment rights.
I want to make it clear that I am not arguing against the use of technology. But like other tools used to collect information in law enforcement, a warrant needs to be issued to use drones domestically.

The police force should have the power to collect intelligence; however, I believe they must go through a judge and request a warrant to do so. The judicial branch must have some authority over drones, as they do with other law enforcement tools.

My bill will restate the Fourth Amendment and protect American's privacy by forcing police officials to obtain a warrant before using domestic drones.

There are some exceptions within this bill, such as the patrol of our national borders, when immediate action is needed to prevent "imminent danger to life," and when we are under a high risk of a terrorist attack. Otherwise, the government must have probable cause that led them to ask for a warrant before the use of drones is permitted.

If the warrant is not obtained, this act would allow any person to sue the government. This act also specifies that no evidence obtained or collected in violation of this act can be admissible as evidence in a criminal, civil or regulatory action.

Allowing domestic drones to act as spies for the government is a complete violation of our basic right to personal privacy.

Unrestricted drone surveillance conjures up images reminiscent of Orwell's "1984" -- a totalitarian police-state. According to the Fourth Amendment, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

I am sure our police force had good intentions with their suggested drone policies, but do they understand the consequences? Do they realize that they are allowing the government to act as the eye in the sky?

By infringing upon our rights and watching over our every move, the government is not going to protect us, but they will push us one more step closer to completely losing our Fourth Amendment rights. My bill will protect individual privacy against governmental intrusion by these drones and establish a balance by requiring judicial action and allowing protection in court.

I am confident that my colleagues in the Senate will agree with this bill. Each and every one of us took the same oath to abide by and uphold our Constitution. The Preserving Freedom from Unwarranted Surveillance Act does just that.

But, again, there isn't shit we can do about any of this. Orwell's 1984 has gone from cautionary tale to government playbook...

[SNAFU]

Hope you get hit by a truck.

Right back at ya. Drones and the operation of cost so much money, they are not going to be used for surveillance against the majority of people who complain about them. But I have nothing to hide. Besides certain backgrounds checks for even a C clearance are way more revealing than a drone.

[tecknojoe]

I'm curious too, as to the validity of the things mentioned in that blog/article:

They are not supposed to have any information unless it was collected by accident or with a warrant.

They don't just fly drones and look for bad guys then hand shit over to the police

[Ghosty]

Rand Paul has endorsed corporatist rich-people-worshipper Romney. Probably to the chagrin of Ron Paul who is actually a decent fellow. Rand Paul is now considered a traitor by much of the TeaParty, after this latest endorsement. Rand also recently publicly admitted "It would be an HONOR to be a VP under Romney-Tard".

He might say he is against drones over the U.S., BUT he also stands behind Romney, who historically is all about national security at the expense of privacy. RomTard has stated this publicly many times in interviews, he is pro-Drone. Interesting...

[Ghost]

Drones and the operation of cost so much money, they are not going to be used for surveillance against the majority of people who complain about them. But I have nothing to hide. Besides certain backgrounds checks for even a C clearance are way more revealing than a drone.


Costs come down, and can always be justified by "public safety" until they do. Besides, we aren't necessarily talking about Predator/Reaper drones, drones can be as cheap as any of the Quadrocopter variants ($259 on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Parrot-AR-Drone-Quadricopter-Controlled-Android/dp/B003ZVSEN6)

Once we're sliding down the slippery slope, any drone can be justified.

Why pay for a single CSP officer and his car (or the CSP planes) to ticket one person at a time when you can have a single drone fly along ticketing everyone who's speeding, check everyone's tags, check whatever they want as they fly over? Why not have drones hovering over every Rockies game looking for any/every possible violation? Why not hook it all into facial recognition software and monitor who's where, doing what and when?

Background Checks are voluntary--you agree to submit to the BC to get your clearance, or you refuse and you don't take the job. Either way, it's consensual on your part.

Continual surveillance without warrant, purpose, or just cause is simply monitoring the population for the sake of monitoring the public.

I think your naivety is overwhelmed only by your shortsightedness in how this will be abused.



They are not supposed to have any information unless it was collected by accident or with a warrant.

They don't just fly drones and look for bad guys then hand shit over to the police

Because it won't be easy to say it was "by accident" that you observed X when you just happen to be flying over and monitoring everything?

[TinkerinWstuff]

They need drones to patrol the highways of rural NE, SD,WY etc where people like me drive at go to jail speeds for hours on end because there is nothing and no one out there to hurt.

[Ghost]

Rand Paul has endorsed corporatist rich-people-worshipper Romney. Probably to the chagrin of Ron Paul who is actually a decent fellow. Rand Paul is now considered a traitor by much of the TeaParty, after this latest endorsement. Rand also recently publicly admitted "It would be an HONOR to be a VP under Romney-Tard".

He might say he is against drones over the U.S., BUT he also stands behind Romney, who historically is all about national security at the expense of privacy. RomTard has stated this publicly many times in interviews, he is pro-Drone. Interesting...

Flip-flopper? ;)

[TinkerinWstuff]

I have often wondered why they don't issue toll both speeding tickets. The time at each booth is stamped so it is a no brainier to know your average speed.

[Ghost]

I have often wondered why they don't issue toll both speeding tickets. The time at each booth is stamped so it is a no brainier to know your average speed.

From what I understand, it's only due to the fact that the 3rd party that owns or operates the toll roads (e470 or the New York State Thruway for examples) lack the authority of the police to issue tickets.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/ezpass.asp

[SNAFU]

Costs come down, and can always be justified by "public safety" until they do. Besides, we aren't necessarily talking about Predator/Reaper drones, drones can be as cheap as any of the Quadrocopter variants ($259 on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Parrot-AR-Drone-Quadricopter-Controlled-Android/dp/B003ZVSEN6)

Once we're sliding down the slippery slope, any drone can be justified.

Why pay for a single CSP officer and his car (or the CSP planes) to ticket one person at a time when you can have a single drone fly along ticketing everyone who's speeding, check everyone's tags, check whatever they want as they fly over? Why not have drones hovering over every Rockies game looking for any/every possible violation? Why not hook it all into facial recognition software and monitor who's where, doing what and when?

Background Checks are voluntary--you agree to submit to the BC to get your clearance, or you refuse and you don't take the job. Either way, it's consensual on your part.

Continual surveillance without warrant, purpose, or just cause is simply monitoring the population for the sake of monitoring the public.

You're naivety is overwhelmed only by your shortsightedness.




Because it won't be easy to say it was "by accident" that you observed X when you just happen to be flying over and monitoring everything?

A. No need for the jabs, its called being civil.
I'm looking at it as to be cost effective for surveillance, a drone will need to sweep a large perimeter and a Quadcoptor will not achieve that because the of the size. Now if your saying that there will be mini drones flying around everywhere, are they being operated? Does every drone have an operator or are they on a gps surveillance loop. Well even the latter still needs an operator and both need technicians for maintenance. Operators and Techs mean need payed. What's the range on the camera? General rule of thumb, if someone knows they are being watch then they won't dick around. Beyond that, multi target facial recognition and target designation from a far enough distance that they will not be heard? Science Fiction as of now. Now if you want to pick out a single target I get that, there's contracts out for that tech right now but it will be awhile. Next we should get precogs from minority report and make arrests before they happen. When I see the military w/ the tech first I might change my tune.

My statement about background checks meant that you can reveal much more by doing a search on somebody(which many employers do today) than a drone. Yes they are voluntary but a credit check alone reveals much.

[Ghost]

A. No need for the jabs, its called being civil.
I'm looking at it as to be cost effective for surveillance, a drone will need to sweep a large perimeter and a Quadcoptor will not achieve that because the of the size. Now if your saying that there will be mini drones flying around everywhere, are they being operated? Does every drone have an operator or are they on a gps surveillance loop. Well even the latter still needs an operator and both need technicians for maintenance. Beyond that, multi target facial recognition and target designation from that far of a distance? Now if you want to pick out a single target I get that, there's contracts out for that tech right now but it will be awhile. Next we should get precogs from minority report and make arrests before they happen.

My statement about background checks meant that you can reveal much more by doing a search on somebody(which many employers do today) than a drone. Yes they are voluntary but a credit check alone reveals much.

You're thinking too small and too focused. Costs in technology come down, technological improvements happen rapidly, processor and storage capacity grow exponentially.

For the moment, it may not be feasible to have drones everywhere, but there's no reason it cannot or will not be feasible in the near-term future.

5 years ago there were no Quadrocopters, 5 years from now I'm sure there will be sufficient technological development for mid-sized drones, tiny "hummingbird" drones, and massive fighter-replacement drones.

Facial recognition software, camera technology, all of that gets better yearly. Compare the first GoPro to the HERO 3D and consider what can be done in a very short amount of time.

And while drones need to report to operators, technology will allow a single operator to monitor multiple drones which are effectively autonomous or semi-autonomous until overridden by the operator.
So, costs will drop as you replace on-patrol officers and cars with fleets of drones that can summon response teams from a smaller overall pool of officers.

So, the issue isn't the technology, nor the cost of operators, those things can both be easily solved and both are ancillary to the core issue of Rights and Freedoms and the idea that we, as Americans, are entitled to those rights that protect our freedom from undue scrutiny.

You're saying "we can't do this right now" and I'm saying that you're missing the point.

As we take steps that erode our rights there's nothing to prevent the inevitable erosion of Privacy writ large as whatever technological limits there are now will soon be overcome.

[dirkterrell]

You're saying "we can't do this right now" and I'm saying that you're missing the point.


This.

Orwell only missed the timing by about 30 years.

[Fernman]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SNPJMk2fgJU

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

You're thinking too small and too focused. Costs in technology come down, technological improvements happen rapidly, processor and storage capacity grow exponentially.

For the moment, it may not be feasible to have drones everywhere, but there's no reason it cannot or will not be feasible in the near-term future.

5 years ago there were no Quadrocopters, 5 years from now I'm sure there will be sufficient technological development for mid-sized drones, tiny "hummingbird" drones, and massive fighter-replacement drones.

Facial recognition software, camera technology, all of that gets better yearly. Compare the first GoPro to the HERO 3D and consider what can be done in a very short amount of time.

And while drones need to report to operators, technology will allow a single operator to monitor multiple drones which are effectively autonomous or semi-autonomous until overridden by the operator.
So, costs will drop as you replace on-patrol officers and cars with fleets of drones that can summon response teams from a smaller overall pool of officers.

So, the issue isn't the technology, nor the cost of operators, those things can both be easily solved and both are ancillary to the core issue of Rights and Freedoms and the idea that we, as Americans, are entitled to those rights that protect our freedom from undue scrutiny.

You're saying "we can't do this right now" and I'm saying that you're missing the point.

As we take steps that erode our rights there's nothing to prevent the inevitable erosion of Privacy writ large as whatever technological limits there are now will soon be overcome.
While there may be some semi-autonomous and perhaps even some fully-autonomous ones in the future, it's not like any gov't could have and spare the resources to watch every citizen all the time. I DO agree we need to draw a line in the sand as to what amount of spying is acceptable or not. As I said, in public places and in public view, you have ZERO expectation of privacy. If you have a privacy fence and a drone is flying overhead without a warrant, then that's an invasion of your privacy and is and SHOULD be forbidden by law.

[TinkerinWstuff]

While there may be some semi-autonomous and perhaps even some fully-autonomous ones in the future, it's not like any gov't could have and spare the resources to watch every citizen all the time. I DO agree we need to draw a line in the sand as to what amount of spying is acceptable or not. As I said, in public places and in public view, you have ZERO expectation of privacy. If you have a privacy fence and a drone is flying overhead without a warrant, then that's an invasion of your privacy and is and SHOULD be forbidden by law.

I can already go to Google maps and see the furniture in my back yard. It's only a matter of time before it's all live video.

[#1Townie]

You guys are missing the point. Its not a matter of privacy. Its a matter of a out of control government. What is not taking about is the other things to go with this. Ndaa for starters. This gives the government the right to lock you up if they think you are a terrorist. What makes you one? Do a quick search as to what can define you as a terrorist. five days of food. Lets say you go camping for two weeks and bring your guns. Done flys over and sees you, now the air force deems you to be up to something. Hope you enjoy that happy little trip because you are now a terrorist. No due process. For how long? Until the war on terror is over.

[stubbicatt]

It's illegal to use military assets to spy on americans on US soil, so is any of this usable in court?

Nah. No more court, Gitmo or other "indefinite detentions" under the stain of the so-called Patriot Act.

[tecknojoe]

everyone wants to complain about too much intelligence because they think it's big bad government turning into the devil's organization from some TV show where a guy runs around in a mask killing people with swords.

A lot of bad mother fuckers get caught before they do some serious shit. Even a white guy every once in a while. This country would be a fucked up place if we didn't have intelligence

[salsashark]

He's said too much already...

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/69536/1278421-serenity_movie_21_thumb_260x130_6459_super.jpg

[cptschlongenheimer]

... This country is a fucked up place because we didn't have intelligence enough to restore our constitution to its rightful place as the supreme law of the land.

FTFY
;)

[tecknojoe]

He's said too much already...

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/69536/1278421-serenity_movie_21_thumb_260x130_6459_super.jpg


:lol:

we never landed on the moon.

there's an alien at area 51

[dirkterrell]

You guys are missing the point. Its not a matter of privacy. Its a matter of a out of control government.

Bingo.

Security is a chimera flaunted at the masses by those who seek to destroy liberty without the guts to do it to our faces. And too many willingly give that liberty away freely because it is taken a little here and there, under the guise of being reasonable. We must be ever vigilant against the growth of government powers, as the Founders warned us repeatedly in their writings. None of these evils are new.

[SNAFU]

While there may be some semi-autonomous and perhaps even some fully-autonomous ones in the future, it's not like any gov't could have and spare the resources to watch every citizen all the time. I DO agree we need to draw a line in the sand as to what amount of spying is acceptable or not. As I said, in public places and in public view, you have ZERO expectation of privacy. If you have a privacy fence and a drone is flying overhead without a warrant, then that's an invasion of your privacy and is and SHOULD be forbidden by law.

I agree cycle, I think it comes down to people wanting more privacy. Even in a home, if your conversations can be heard by neighbors, you have given up your expectation of privacy. Look at Katz vs U.S. Going off of what you said, the expectation of privacy is not as high as many would think. Now some might say they have a problem with that and that is fine, but it personally doesn't bother me. Yes the government can be over zealous at times, but for me it's better safe than sorry. This is still a country were you can talk bad about the government and go about your day vs. a country were you are dragged into the street and executed in front of your family because you bad mouthed those in office and tossed on the roadside.

My God! How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other people on earth enjoy! ~Thomas Jefferson

[Ghost]

Security is a chimera flaunted at the masses by those who seek to destroy liberty without the guts to do it to our faces. And too many willingly give that liberty away freely because it is taken a little here and there, under the guise of being reasonable. We must be ever vigilant against the growth of government powers, as the Founders warned us repeatedly in their writings. None of these evils are new.

The evils aren't new, but the sheer magnitude of their reach, enhanced by technology, is beyond what any Founding Father could possibly have imagined.

Some might be trying to be vigilant, but the balance of power has shifted too far out of reach, and as more and more liberties and Rights are eroded, our ability to get them back diminishes...I think we're fucked, and it's never going to get better.

[Jmetz]

The evils aren't new, but the sheer magnitude of their reach, enhanced by technology, is beyond what any Founding Father could possibly have imagined.

Some might be trying to be vigilant, but the balance of power has shifted too far out of reach, and as more and more liberties and Rights are eroded, our ability to get them back diminishes...I think we're fucked, and it's never going to get better.

I'm pretty much in line with you and Dirk. Though, I personally believe that revolution is coming. It will either come from abuse of power by the government or because the gap between rich and poor becomes too great.

[#1Townie]

I agree cycle, I think it comes down to people wanting more privacy. Even in a home, if your conversations can be heard by neighbors, you have given up your expectation of privacy. Look at Katz vs U.S. Going off of what you said, the expectation of privacy is not as high as many would think. Now some might say they have a problem with that and that is fine, but it personally doesn't bother me. Yes the government can be over zealous at times, but for me it's better safe than sorry. This is still a country were you can talk bad about the government and go about your day vs. a country were you are dragged into the street and executed in front of your family because you bad mouthed those in office and tossed on the roadside.

My God! How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other people on earth enjoy! ~Thomas Jefferson
Lol use a jefferson quote but want to give the government all of your rights. O our freedom to privacy its fading fast. They can read our emails. Take our phones from us and go through it. No warrants needed. Just because they have the means of doing this doesn't mean they should. Look at our mail. Our mail is held as private. Why not our emails? Because of hackers? If someone wanted your mail all they had to do was go to your box and open it. Part office handles every piece of mail. Why not go through it and document who is doing what? Oh yeah its violating our rights. Funny how a piece of paper wrapped in paper that is in the hands of all those strangers is considered private but not anything else.

Just because people like you don't care doesn't mean the rest of us should loose something. Kind of like our rights to guns.

[rforsythe]

While there may be some semi-autonomous and perhaps even some fully-autonomous ones in the future, it's not like any gov't could have and spare the resources to watch every citizen all the time. I DO agree we need to draw a line in the sand as to what amount of spying is acceptable or not. As I said, in public places and in public view, you have ZERO expectation of privacy. If you have a privacy fence and a drone is flying overhead without a warrant, then that's an invasion of your privacy and is and SHOULD be forbidden by law.

Every citizen is being watched, at least electronically (think giant NSA data center out in Utah, among several other facilities). Drones are another matter, but it's not just the feds that are the issue. Local PD's and other agencies are snapping these things up in anticipation of the FAA approving their domestic use, which right now is not so easily done due to airspace rules. Note that I'm not talking about the little suitcase-sized things that get 100' off the ground or whatever, I'm talking about legitimate drones that travel like aircraft. The cost will come down and many other agencies and private groups will use them. Let's also not forget wholesale warrantless GPS tracking of citizens by the FBI and other shenanigans, which until very recently was happening thousands of times over. A supreme court judge IIRC ruled that it was illegal and needed to stop, though that doesn't mean it has.


I agree cycle, I think it comes down to people wanting more privacy. Even in a home, if your conversations can be heard by neighbors, you have given up your expectation of privacy. Look at Katz vs U.S. Going off of what you said, the expectation of privacy is not as high as many would think. Now some might say they have a problem with that and that is fine, but it personally doesn't bother me. Yes the government can be over zealous at times, but for me it's better safe than sorry. This is still a country were you can talk bad about the government and go about your day vs. a country were you are dragged into the street and executed in front of your family because you bad mouthed those in office and tossed on the roadside.

Better safe than sorry is an argument that governments have used before, usually (almost universally) to the eventual detriment of their citizenry. And you're right, they won't just cap you in your street -- that said, talking bad about the government can land you in an NDAA detention facility indefinitely, without any rights whatsoever. The DHS was recently discovered to be watching many sources for signs of "political discourse", far from their originally stated purpose of watching those places for early warnings of disease outbreak, disasters, etc. Political dissension is being monitored and recorded actively by the government at this point.


Lol use a jefferson quote but want to give the government all of your rights. O our freedom to privacy its fading fast. They can read our emails. Take our phones from us and go through it. No warrants needed. Just because they have the means of doing this doesn't mean they should. Look at our mail. Our mail is held as private. Why not our emails? Because of hackers? If someone wanted your mail all they had to do was go to your box and open it. Part office handles every piece of mail. Why not go through it and document who is doing what? Oh yeah its violating our rights. Funny how a piece of paper wrapped in paper that is in the hands of all those strangers is considered private but not anything else.

Just because people like you don't care doesn't mean the rest of us should loose something. Kind of like our rights to guns.

Word. Your freedom to privacy has all but ended, most people just don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes (myself included, it's likely far worse than I know and I pay attention to this stuff).

[Ghosty]

...that said, talking bad about the government can land you in an NDAA detention facility indefinitely, without any rights whatsoever. The DHS was recently discovered to be watching many sources for signs of "political discourse", far from their originally stated purpose...
Any links to legit articles/info on this?

[Zach929rr]

ITT drone operators try to give shit reasons why use of government money isn't a bad thing because "lol privacy"

[rforsythe]

Any links to legit articles/info on this?

Yeah, give me a bit. Some of the info was redacted, but was obtained under FOIA request including the full list of words they monitor for.

[Ghost]

Just because people like you don't care doesn't mean the rest of us should loose something. Kind of like our rights to guns.


Every citizen is being watched, at least electronically (think giant NSA data center out in Utah, among several other facilities).

Political dissension is being monitored and recorded actively by the government at this point.

Word. Your freedom to privacy has all but ended, most people just don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes (myself included, it's likely far worse than I know and I pay attention to this stuff).

These^ are the reasons that this:


I personally believe that revolution is coming. It will either come from abuse of power by the government or because the gap between rich and poor becomes too great.

Will never happen.

1. Too many people are either apathetic or have fully bought into the idea that our "protection" is worth more than our Freedom and our Rights to ever "stand up" for anything remotely resembling a political sea change let alone anything more.

2. In order to effect a significant change in public policy, the public would not only have to be motivated to want to change, they'd have to actually have the political power to do so--and in a world of PACs, Super PACs and wholesale corporate influence, the public has no power to affect policy or the political structure in any meaningful way.

3. If you mean a literal revolution, then good luck with that. No one will give up what they have (as little as they have now, or the less they'll have later) to join a revolution, again, see above for the apathy and/or powerlessness that will cull any "ambition" to go throw rocks at tanks.

The idea that you could have an army of the poor "rise up" and actually do anything other than die in the streets is out of touch with the reality of the imbalance of power. Your theoretical "revolution" wouldn't be the Revolutionary War, where the British got sick of trying to fight a long-distance war against insurgents with near-equivalent firepower.

Instead, with the constant surveillance, and with the might of the military, the near-military police units, and para-military contractors, any "revolution" would end before anyone could overthrow anything.

This isn't some 3rd-world country, this is a country backed by the strongest military-industrial-congressional complex the world has ever seen, supported by the best (most intrusive) intelligence gathering resources available.

Any hint of Revolution and the "leaders" would be in GitMo before you could blink (since they'd be Domestic Terrorists) and if there was any demonstration of force, it'd be crushed by the riot police, and if that wasn't sufficient, then the military would be more than happy to oblige.

...As Ralph said, we don't even know the full extent of just how fucked we are, but don't expect that we'll ever have more Rights or more Freedom than we do now. 1984 may be 30yrs late, but it's coming and nothing will change or stop it.

[#1Townie]

see you seem to think that all military WILL follow every order. i dont think that will happen. our first civil war was not the simple man facing his government it was whole states that took a step back and said screw this. i see this happening.

http://americanfreepress.net/?p=1399

its not going to be about that one man. states are tired of the feds just like the rest of us. if things dont change the country WILL fall apart.

[Ghost]

see you seem to think that all military WILL follow every order.

The majority will follow every/any order, the few who don't will be imprisoned or executed as traitors in a time of war.


its not going to be about that one man. states are tired of the feds just like the rest of us. if things dont change the country WILL fall apart.

The more the country falls apart, the more justified the government (Fed, State, Local) will be to enact "emergency" measures-which will further tighten the restrictions on Freedom and Rights.

Essentially, it's a no-lose situation. Either you (collectively) shut up and take it, or you try to oppose the power grab and become a shining example of why there need to be stricter measures in place...

The script's already been written, the actors are all on stage, and the play will run to its inevitable conclusion...

[Ghosty]

Just to add fuel to the fire, please enjoy this CNN article about Google censorship requests from even Western governments, incl. the U.S.:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/18/tech/web/google-transparency-report/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/SpectralCat/Emoticons/devil-smiley-029-1.gif

[#1Townie]

lol no they wont. what troops will follow those orders? ever person i have met in the service has all said the same thing. they wont do it. they will bail. we are not talking about mindless robots. these are the same people that would be asked to attack their families and friends. the one thing they fight for now. let me ask you something. have you even paid attention to the war over the last 12 years? guys that live in dirt huts have put up a hell of fight. you think that we couldnt? ieds like never before would be made by the millions. military grade weapons?? many people on this board have the same guns that the army uses. i have two. sure they are not fully auto but none the less they are the same. sure the time right now it wouldnt happen. i will agree with you on that. just look back at the last just ten years. the idea of another civil war is on everyones mind now days. not just the nut with the tin foil hat. people are stocking up and gearing up for this. look at the ammo shortage eight years ago. ten years ago i used to laugh at the idea of another civil war. today i have plans and gear to bounce at a moments notice. plans on how to get out of this town and back to the desert without being seen. its a real theory. im sure nothing will happen today or even this month but it seems like everyday something new is coming up that the government is now doing to watch us. you can only bend a pencil so much before its snaps.

[Ghost]

lol no they wont. what troops will follow those orders? ever person i have met in the service has all said the same thing. they wont do it. they will bail. we are not talking about mindless robots. these are the same people that would be asked to attack their families and friends. the one thing they fight for now. let me ask you something. have you even paid attention to the war over the last 12 years? guys that live in dirt huts have put up a hell of fight. you think that we couldnt? ieds like never before would be made by the millions. military grade weapons?? many people on this board have the same guns that the army uses. i have two. sure they are not fully auto but none the less they are the same. sure the time right now it wouldnt happen. i will agree with you on that. just look back at the last just ten years. the idea of another civil war is on everyones mind now days. not just the nut with the tin foil hat. people are stocking up and gearing up for this. look at the ammo shortage eight years ago. ten years ago i used to laugh at the idea of another civil war. today i have plans and gear to bounce at a moments notice. plans on how to get out of this town and back to the desert without being seen. its a real theory. im sure nothing will happen today or even this month but it seems like everyday something new is coming up that the government is now doing to watch us. you can only bend a pencil so much before its snaps.


You realize hoarding food and ammunition now marks you as a potential terrorist, right?

I knew a guy from paintball, Vietnam vet, ex federal marshal, lives up in the mountains in a cabin with a bomb shelter below and has a decent stockpile of food, guns, and ammunition for "when the day comes". He's been waiting for "the day" to come since 1970-something.

I think that even if he lives another 40 years he'll still be waiting...

And, in the meantime, we'll have drones circling overhead, more intrusions and fewer freedoms--all without any revolution or anything to point your AR at. You can't shoot political power grabs, and you can't shoot PACs to end their influence, nor can you shoot corporations (despite being "people") to stop their takeover of everything political...

[Ghosty]

You realize hoarding food and ammunition now marks you as a potential terrorist, right?
How does that work? How do they know or keep track?

[rforsythe]

How does that work? How do they know or keep track?

Buy ammo at any store, they require ID. Buy any food with a credit card or use a loyalty card when you get it, it's tracked. Unless you buy it in a totally record-free manner, it's recorded.

[#1Townie]

Yes I do that is part of why I posted this. also I dont own any form of plastic. I buy my ammo from small dealers that I know personally so no if is required. Yeah sure he had been waiting for 40 years but now days its scarry.

[Ghost]

Yes I do that is part of why I posted this. also I dont own any form of plastic. I buy my ammo from small dealers that I know personally so no if is required. Yeah sure he had been waiting for 40 years but now days its scarry.


Even with cash, if you go to a store, you're probably being recorded, and if you're deemed suspicious enough (probably because you're buying ammo with cash) they can seize the video and track you down anyway...

And, if you're out buying it from someone's truck/trunk, then that's where the drones come in, spy on you, and tag you as a potential domestic terrorist for trying to hide your purchases.

40 year ago was scary, now we're beyond scary and simply "fucked".

[#1Townie]

So in your eyes buying with cash is suspect?? Wow and I'm the moron. And who the fuck said anything about a trunk? Learn how to read. I'm sure you understand you can get ammo from other places than walmart. Fml.

[Ghost]

So in your eyes buying with cash is suspect?? Wow and I'm the moron. And who the fuck said anything about a trunk? Learn how to read. I'm sure you understand you can get ammo from other places than walmart. Fml.


Not my eyes. Maybe you need lessons in reading comprehension.

[#1Townie]

Face palm.

[Ghost]

Face palm.

Exactly. If you think that simply buying ammo with cash means it goes unnoticed, you're dumber than I thought...

[#1Townie]

Wow.... You understand you can do things like get to know a gun dealer right? I know a few just in this state. Id is required to buy ammo. Background checks are not required to buy ammo. so you tell the guy that makes his living by tracking people down how I'm being documented. You would shit your pants if you knew just some of the ways we use to find debtors. Trust me I'm not being tracked for my ammo. Lets get back to the topic okay.

[SNAFU]

Lol use a jefferson quote but want to give the government all of your rights. O our freedom to privacy its fading fast. They can read our emails. Take our phones from us and go through it. No warrants needed. Just because they have the means of doing this doesn't mean they should. Look at our mail. Our mail is held as private. Why not our emails? Because of hackers? If someone wanted your mail all they had to do was go to your box and open it. Part office handles every piece of mail. Why not go through it and document who is doing what? Oh yeah its violating our rights. Funny how a piece of paper wrapped in paper that is in the hands of all those strangers is considered private but not anything else.

Just because people like you don't care doesn't mean the rest of us should loose something. Kind of like our rights to guns.

Oh I just put the Jefferson quote up because you can pull a one liner from anyone and use it to your own benefit. I never said that you as a citizen shouldn't fight for your beliefs, that is what makes this country great. I just do not agree with all the "Our rights are being raped" POV. That doesn't make me stupid, a moron, ignorant or whatever other words people wanna throw around. It just means I disagree, but apparently now and days that is not allowed. As for the Post office, u do realize it's not a secure line of messaging. Technically anyone, whether it be government or civilian, can have access to your mail.

[TFOGGuys]

Buy ammo at any store, they require ID.


Only to verify age. I haven't had to show ID to buy ammo at Mallwart, ever.

[SNAFU]

Only to verify age. I haven't had to show ID to buy ammo at Mallwart, ever.

Me either. Which is funny because I will get IDed sometimes for everything else, but not ammo. I go in and say I want X boxes of this and that ammo. I pay, keep the receipt in hand and put it in my bag and walk out. I put it in my bag because it is nobodies business what I buy. Nobody as in civilians.

[#1Townie]

Oh I just put the Jefferson quote up because you can pull a one liner from anyone and use it to your own benefit. I never said that you as a citizen shouldn't fight for your beliefs, that is what makes this country great. I just do not agree with all the "Our rights are being raped" POV. That doesn't make me stupid, a moron, ignorant or whatever other words people wanna throw around. It just means I disagree, but apparently now and days that is not allowed. As for the Post office, u do realize it's not a secure line of messaging. Technically anyone, whether it be government or civilian, can have access to your mail.
At what point is your mail box secure? No not just anyone. I for one have no idea how to get into other peoples email unless i steal their phone or they give methe password.

Now like i said what makes the mail special? What there is locks on it?? Kind of like a password locks a email? So a hacker for the government can hack into my email but they wouldnt be able to use a locksmith to get into my box?

Its the same thing bro. A lock digital or made of real metals can be picked or bypassed. Nothing is 100% fool proof and safe. If someone wants it bad enough they can get it. I consider emails very private because i cant wait two weeks for the post office. Just because our times have changed and the mannor we now use to send letters is different doesnt mean the government has the rights to our things.

Thats cool you think differently and you see no issues with this or any of the rest of. Makes me a little sad but still it is your right. But let me ask you something....

Should it be that others lose rights because others dont agree with them? I dont want the government in any of mail. I dont want drines flying over and see me out tracking sime form of wildlife and think oh shit he has a gun and is in the woods arrest him kick his door down search it. Oh shit he has two weeks worth of food and 100 rounds d 223. TERRORIST! OFF TO GITMO!!!

That is the scary truth. Ndaa allows them to detain you with no due process. Guidelines that determine what a terrorist is i....... hold on read it for yourself.


http://www.listmyfive.com/8fc0f473/The-Top-Five-Terrorist-Signs

So yeah im scared of my government. I dont want them to have anymore power.

[grim]

At what point is your mail box secure? No not just anyone. I for one have no idea how to get into other peoples email unless i steal their phone or they give methe password.

Now like i said what makes the mail special? What there is locks on it?? Kind of like a password locks a email? So a hacker for the government can hack into my email but they wouldnt be able to use a locksmith to get into my box?

Its the same thing bro. A lock digital or made of real metals can be picked or bypassed. Nothing is 100% fool proof and safe. If someone wants it bad enough they can get it. I consider emails very private because i cant wait two weeks for the post office. Just because our times have changed and the mannor we now use to send letters is different doesnt mean the government has the rights to our things.

Thats cool you think differently and you see no issues with this or any of the rest of. Makes me a little sad but still it is your right. But let me ask you something....

Should it be that others lose rights because others dont agree with them? I dont want the government in any of mail. I dont want drines flying over and see me out tracking sime form of wildlife and think oh shit he has a gun and is in the woods arrest him kick his door down search it. Oh shit he has two weeks worth of food and 100 rounds d 223. TERRORIST! OFF TO GITMO!!!

That is the scary truth. Ndaa allows them to detain you with no due process. Guidelines that determine what a terrorist is i....... hold on read it for yourself.


http://www.listmyfive.com/8fc0f473/The-Top-Five-Terrorist-Signs

So yeah im scared of my government. I dont want them to have anymore power.


Oh hey by the way there was some info on your X box that you are picking up today, but dont worry i already made 10 copies on various thumb drives and sent them to the highest bidders to steal your identity. :D

[#1Townie]

Fuck yeah bro!!!!

[Ghosty]

Republicans kill proposal to block NDAA indefinite detention provisions:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/05/republicans-ndaa-detention-terrorist


At least it's on the record: Most House Republicans support the indefinite detention without trial of American citizens.

During Thursday's floor debate over the latest national defense authorization act, the House GOP brought out their long knives for Reps. Adam Smith (D-Wash.) and Justin Amash (R-Mich.), who, in their view, had collaborated on a nefarious plot to undermine national security. Rep. Tom Rooney (R-Fla.) accused the lawmakers of wanting to "coddle terrorists," while Rep. Mac Thornberry (R-Tex.) warned that (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57436797/house-oks-continued-war-in-afghanistan/) under an amendment they'd introduced, "as soon as a member of Al Qaeda sets foot on US soil, they hear you have the right to remain silent."

National Review's Andrew C. McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor who has never heard of a same-sex marriage supporting, pro-financial regulation liberal who wasn't secretly a member of the Muslim Brotherhood (http://www.heritage.org/events/2010/05/the-grand-jihad-how-islam-and-the-left-sabotage-america), wrote that their proposal (http://pjmedia.com/andrewmccarthy/2012/05/17/tea-party-should-oppose-latest-terrorist-bill-of-rights/) was the result of "libertarian extremists" teaming up with liberals with an "obsession" with giving "more rights" to "mass murderers."

[Ghost]

Republicans kill proposal to block NDAA indefinite detention provisions:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/05/republicans-ndaa-detention-terrorist

One step closer...

[#1Townie]

And im about to break?

[Ghost]

And im about to break?

Good song, but think this system is already broken.

[rforsythe]

Wow.... You understand you can do things like get to know a gun dealer right? I know a few just in this state. Id is required to buy ammo. Background checks are not required to buy ammo. so you tell the guy that makes his living by tracking people down how I'm being documented. You would shit your pants if you knew just some of the ways we use to find debtors. Trust me I'm not being tracked for my ammo. Lets get back to the topic okay.

Posting up on an Internet forum about how you buy a bunch of ammo, keep guns, expect civil war and have plans for it, etc mean you're being tracked. Add that to any of a hundred cameras that probably see you drive to your buddy's shop, GPS logging on your smartphone (if you carry one), etc and yes, you are being tracked. Maybe not what you buy (unless you've posted that up here or somewhere else at any point), but the fact that you're there is preserved in digital posterity. Somewhere in some government-owned (or more likely, government-contracted) data center is a file on the things you've said online and likely some of the data showing where you go. It's all monitored.

[grim]

I'm pretty sure there is a gps tracking device in my left shoulder.

[Ghost]

Posting up on an Internet forum about how you buy a bunch of ammo, keep guns, expect civil war and have plans for it, etc mean you're being tracked. Add that to any of a hundred cameras that probably see you drive to your buddy's shop, GPS logging on your smartphone (if you carry one), etc and yes, you are being tracked. Maybe not what you buy (unless you've posted that up here or somewhere else at any point), but the fact that you're there is preserved in digital posterity. Somewhere in some government-owned (or more likely, government-contracted) data center is a file on the things you've said online and likely some of the data showing where you go. It's all monitored.

^Exactly.


I'm pretty sure there is a gps tracking device in my left shoulder.

That lump is probably cancer, not a GPS.

[#1Townie]

Good song, but think this system is already broken.
Already over? Song by red? Great song.

Lol tell me more about tracking. How do they track the said smart phones??

[Ghost]

http://blog.buzzflash.com/node/13598


Billions of Tax Dollars for Drones While Kids Starve and Cities Go Broke

JACQUELINE MARCUS FOR BUZZFLASH AT TRUTHOUT
A PBS disturbing report aired the other night about families in the state of Nevada that lost their jobs and homes. The children of these families were pocketing free ketchup packages from their school lunches because they're hungry at night. In this state alone, there are thousands of parents with children in this situation. Beyond Nevada, millions of families have fallen into despair and poverty. It is embarrassingly shameful, and worse, it's unnecessary. These economic problems could be solved if it weren't for the out-of-control defense spending over the last decade. Entitlements such as health care and social security are not draining the country; it's the U.S. war economy that has left large segments of our society impoverished. Nevada's unemployment rate is 11 percent, and that's a conservative figure. Prior to losing their jobs, the majority of these families owned middle-class homes and held decent paying jobs. Now they can't afford to feed their children and they must rely on private charities to get by.

Once upon a time, Hillary Clinton wrote a book called It Takes a Village. The central theme of the book was about improving children's lives. It's a shame that the pragmatic ideas from her book were never implemented.

Instead, President Obama and his Defense and State Secretaries' Leon Panetta and Hillary Clinton have increased the wealth of weapon contractors with our tax dollars beyond comprehension:
"The price tag for the remote control drone war keeps rising," explained Jefferson Morley in his Salon column. "Americans are paying an extra $100 million a month because of the drone war in Afghanistan and Pakistan, according to Defense Secretary Leon Panetta."

(http://www.salon.com/2012/06/19/drones_spur_debt_and_polio/singleton/)

There is no justification for U.S. drone attacks which have terrorized the residents of the region by randomly killing children and civilians in Afghanistan as well as patrol soldiers on the border of Pakistan.

Meanwhile, as unemployment and poverty rises and as more and more cities go bankrupt such as Scranton, Pennsylvania, (http://www.businessinsider.com/scranton-mayor-slashes-all-public-worker-wages-2012-7) where firefighters and police workers' earnings were slashed to the minimum wage of $7.25 an hour, as climate change disasters sweep the country, leaving crops barren from droughts, and as wildfires consume entire communities and forests, as electrical power outages from hurricane force winds during the hottest summer on record create more burdens and suffering for Americans, the Pentagon and White House team came up with another brilliant idea to increase the wealth of contractors: they approved of more spending, an estimated $200 billion for thousands of surveillance drones that will be used to illegally spy on Americans. "US taxpayers will have invested about $11.8 billion on a single drone among many, (Reapers) (http://www.knowdrones.com/DRONE-FAQ.pdf). It's hard to be sure what the exact cost figures are-but between the drone wars and domestic drones-it adds up to billions of dollars.

So in addition to the drone wars, taxpayers will spend billions of dollars more on drones used to spy on us-while an estimated 6 million children go hungry every night in this country, and while public services, fire and police departments are slashed because there is no money to support them.(http://www.politicolnews.com/domestic-drone-laws-to-monitor-americans-draws-critics/)

Raising taxes won't fix our economy when we have a huge perpetual leak (weapon contracts) in the ship that is draining the country dry, when we have mismanagement of tax dollars that serve the top 1 percent at the expense of the entire country.

This is what happens when politicians have the power to spend money that doesn't belong to them. Certainly if the surveillance drone allocation were put to the voters, it would be flatly rejected. Spending billions of dollars on drones in the middle of a dire economic depression is not only immoral, when our tax dollars are supposed to be used for public services to improve the well-being of our lives, it's also as unconstitutional and as un-American as it gets.

Spying on American citizens presents a clear and present danger to the Rule of Law. When a government intrusively spies on its citizens, it is called a totalitarian state. Just as President Bush claimed unlimited and unchecked power, President Obama has also adopted the same extremist position by opting to ignore the surveillance laws pertaining to the FISA court. ¹

Regarding the question of abuse of executive power, it's worth repeating the question that Sen. Russ Feingold asked Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, January 31, 2006:

"Does the president...have the authority, acting as commander in chief, to authorize warrantless searches of Americans' homes and wiretaps of their conversations in violation of the criminal and foreign intelligence surveillance (FISA) statutes of this country?"

Gonzales dodged the question, but we know that a president does not have that authority. Furthermore, there is nothing reasonable about spying on every single citizen. If we still had a functional system of checks & balances, Bush would have been impeached for committing high crimes and misdemeanors. But Congress only impeaches presidents for lying about sex affairs.

Illegal surveillance is far more threatening to citizens of this country than trumped up threats of terrorism. A few days ago, Naked Capitalism reported that "Drone pilots may practice spying activities by tracking civilian cars." The feds have absolutely no constitutional right to invade the privacy of our homes or to track civilian cars without our consent. That's beyond illegal, it's creepy and perverted. (Drone Pilots May Practice by Tracking Civilian Cars, and More) (http://truth-out.org/news/item/10214-election-countdown-2012-drone-pilots-may-practice-by-tracking-civilian-cars-and-more)

Under the Fourth Amendment, all searches, whether conducted with or without a warrant, must be "reasonable".

Spying on everyone is not reasonable. (http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/domestic-drones) It is, as Glenn Greenwald expressed it, "wholly antithetical to the system of government under which Americans have lived for more than two centuries." In addition to tapping our phone conversations and tracking our internet interests, from the books we buy to the movies we watch to the organizations and blogs that we visit, the president approved of sending thousands of drones into the airways that will be used to spy inside our homes at the cost of billions of tax dollars. They can follow us from room to room, listen to what we're saying, they can photograph us, and they can send all the information collected directly to the NSA (National Security Agency). Perhaps the drones will capture millions of pictures of starving American children squeezing ketchup packages for food?

The U.S. government is systematically violating our privacy in ways that we can't even begin to fathom, given the technology. Our privacy is the most sacred freedom of all freedoms: The right to privacy, as Justice Louis D. Brandeis said, is to be left alone.

Ironically, we are paying for their criminal surveillance activities with our tax dollars. Shouldn't our tax dollars be used for climate change disaster preparation instead of drones, which would create thousands of jobs and would help save lives? What about the 6 million starving children in this country? What about funding to support our police, fire and postal departments? No money for our public workers, but plenty of billions for unnecessary and illegal drones and the expansion of drone wars in the Middle East.

1. Constitutional lawyer and author, Glenn Greenwald, summarized the critical and important functions that the FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) court plays. Notice the word "foreign" - such operations were never supposed to be used domestically on every single American:
"FISA's truly meaningful check on abuse in the eavesdropping process is that the president is prevented form engaging in improper eavesdropping because he knows that every instance of eavesdropping he orders will be known to a federal judge-a high-level judicial officer who is not subject to the president's authority and whose constitutional duties are separate from the president's."
-
Recommended Reading:
How Would A Patriot Act? / Defending American Values from a President Run Amok by Glenn Greenwald
With Liberty and Justice for Some / How the law is used to destroy equality and protect the powerful by Glenn Greenwald

[Ghost]

Lol tell me more about tracking. How do they track the said smart phones??

Too long to cut & paste

http://www.pcworld.com/article/255802/this_smartphone_tracking_tech_will_give_you_the_cr eeps.html

[TinkerinWstuff]

More fucking handouts isn't going to fix the problem. Get off the tit and move to where the jobs are like north Dakota and Wyoming.

[TinkerinWstuff]

If you need proof, go drive thru a rural Indian reservation

[Ghosty]

More fucking handouts isn't going to fix the problem. Get off the tit and move to where the jobs are like north Dakota and Wyoming.
YES! Entire communities are popping up in the gas/oil/energy industry, and the supporting infrastructure around it. They need workers badly.

Yes it sucks, but if you must, resort to doing hard labor (agro, food, construction, janitorial, whatever), until you can get on your feet and find better. If you have a bunch of kids because you're too stupid to use birth control, or you have some major criminal offense, then no sympathy, fuck all y'all. *heartless*


If you need proof, go drive thru a rural Indian reservation
Proof of what? What's going on there?

[TinkerinWstuff]

Proof that handouts do not fix poverty

[Ghost]

YES! Entire communities are popping up in the gas/oil/energy industry, and the supporting infrastructure around it. They need workers badly.

Actually, most of those towns are full, and turning people away since there's no place for them and they're sick of trailers and tents and communities of people living out of cars that are springing up everywhere.

And, if you're part of the extreme poor, how, exactly, are you supposed to be able to afford to pick up and move your family across the country? How do you even get one of those jobs while out of state?

[Ghost]

Proof that handouts do not fix poverty

Reservations have almost no real educational systems, no real jobs, nothing but a cycle of poverty that gets worse every generation.

So, you're right, handouts won't work, we need to build a better infrastructure in order to get people to climb out of poverty, and we need an economy that's adding jobs and empowering education--both on the reservations and all across our country.

But main point wasn't the poverty, it's the over-use of drones and the lack of controlling legislation to protect our privacy.

[TinkerinWstuff]

Actually, most of those towns are full, and turning people away since there's no place for them and they're sick of trailers and tents and communities of people living out of cars that are springing up everywhere.

And, if you're part of the extreme poor, how, exactly, are you supposed to be able to afford to pick up and move your family across the country? How do you even get one of those jobs while out of state?

I say BS.

AND

People sailed the ocean with a nickel in their pocket for opportunity and no certainty of a job ahead.

All excuses of the weak and scared.

[Ghost]

People sailed the ocean with a nickel in their pocket for opportunity and no certainty of a job ahead.

All excuses of the weak and scared.

Right. :roll:

[TinkerinWstuff]

Reservations have almost no real educational systems, no real jobs, nothing but a cycle of poverty that gets worse every generation.

So, you're right, handouts won't work, we need to build a better infrastructure in order to get people to climb out of poverty, and we need an economy that's adding jobs and empowering education--both on the reservations and all across our country.

But main point wasn't the poverty, it's the over-use of drones and the lack of controlling legislation to protect our privacy.

Bullshit. They have schools.

[Ghost]

Bullshit. They have schools.

http://www.nativevillage.org/Messages%20from%20the%20People/the%20arrogance%20of%20ignorance.htm

http://www2.nau.edu/~jar/INAR.html (http://www2.nau.edu/%7Ejar/INAR.html)

[TinkerinWstuff]

Plenty of materials available for homeschooling where there may not be a formal school. There'll always be a long list of excuses or you could find a way to get it done.

Get-r-done lazy fucks

[TinkerinWstuff]

Put two people alone in the woods. One will find a way to build a shelter, a fire, and find food, while the other whines and bitches about being cold and hungry.

[#1Townie]

Ummm..... guys what are guys bitching about?? Poor rez kids and their families? You guys understand they sont HAVE to live there right? Also they can go to public school.

Btw i was being a smartass about the how do they track you with smart phones. I already know... i use the legal ways. We have talks on repo forums about how to track people. I was being that way because i was being talked to like i was a idiot. Something to do with being a tin hat wearing bunker living physico for not using plastic to buy my guns. Lol. Or was it ammo. I dont really remember. And dont care.

As for the topic at hand. Everyone should be outraged about the government using drones on us soil. Also the money for them could be better spent. How about using that billions of dollars in other areas? Maybe kweping nasa open. There are more ways of helping people then just giving them hand outs.

Also those oil jobs. You dont have to live there to work them. I know a few people that fly out for those jobs. Same with fishing.

[Ghosty]

Something to do with being a tin hat wearing bunker living physico for not using plastic to buy my guns. Lol. Or was it ammo. I dont really remember. And dont care.
Speaking of, today on CNN, here is an actual real backwoods bunker psycho. Sick lazy trash gave up on life, went survivalist, then killed his family before offing himself. Another coward, like the animal abusers.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/13/justice/washington-suspect-video-diary/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

[#1Townie]

I fucking hate people.