Police may try & confiscate your GoPro to gather evidence against your riding buddies

[Spiderman]

I really don't think this is gonna catch on (at least I hope it won't):

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/06/20/sheriffs-office-biker-disagree-on-memorial-day-arrest/

[Jmetz]

Interesting. I'm pretty sure they can't just take the camera. Then the officer stated he pulled him over to take the camera, then trumped up a charge.

[Ghosty]

If they feel it contains evidence used in a *gasp* CRIME (cause we all know how HUGE a crime riding in groups is, *sarcasm*), then who knows what the gestapo police state can try to pull. After everything you've read in the last 10 years, would it surprise you? Especially how they're trying to make it illegal to tape police stops so they can hide and cover up police beatings? It's not (1984) fiction or conspiracy theory anymore, it's reality.


"We are going to the scene because another officer was being surrounded by a hundred bikers."
Huh?

[birchyboy]

Not likely the same event, but here's a video from a police cruiser in Dallas this past Memorial Day. One of the riders is the ultimate douchecanoe.

http://youtu.be/L_bFKtx42AM

[Ezzzzy1]

I already know someone that had theirs confiscated...

[Ghosty]

http://www.youtu.be/L_bFKtx42AM


Squids like this are the reason why sport bike riders like us get hounded on by the police for no reason at all.
this

[tecknojoe]

I'm not sure of the legality of taking someones personal property as evidence so please enlighten me

Isn't it your right to keep your own camera as evidence of innocence? Or are the police allowed to just take whatever they feel necessary for their side of the case?

[Ghosty]

Agree the rider should be allowed to keep it for his own defense. But even if not completely kosher, I'm sure the police state gestapo D.A. lawyers will EASILY find some way to legally justify the confiscation as part a "crime scene" or evidence of illegal activity.

[grim]

:spit: this makes me laugh.

[Matty]

Enough with blaming shit on squids.... We are all to blame, it's us as sportbike riders that ruin for ourselves.

Please tell me you have never sped through the canyons, went around a car while crossing the double yellow line, sped on the freeway, or/and never made an illegal lane change.....

Sorry..... What was this thread all about???

[Fumet5uNo]

Enough with blaming shit on squids.... We are all to blame, it's us as sportbike riders that ruin for ourselves.

Please tell me you have never sped through the canyons, went around a car while crossing the double yellow line, sped on the freeway, or/and never made an illegal lane change.....

Sorry..... What was this thread all about???


+1 guilty as not charged but as seen on video from an un seized go pro

[Matty]

+1 guilty as not charged but as seen on video from an un seized go pro

Hahaha.. Nice!

[tecknojoe]

Enough with blaming shit on squids.... We are all to blame, it's us as sportbike riders that ruin for ourselves.

Please tell me you have never sped through the canyons, went around a car while crossing the double yellow line, sped on the freeway, or/and never made an illegal lane change.....

Sorry..... What was this thread all about???

half agree


but i still want someone to answer my question because i actually don't know

[Ghosty]

I blame squids the same as I blame ricers, hondoodlers, and Fast&Furious movies for ruining the racing scene and public image of sporty vehicles in general. :D

Plus I was quoting the video link to actual idiots, not the OP article who were just on a group ride. Two different scenarios. ;)

Are these not assholes that are partially to blame for police attitude?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_bFKtx42AM&feature=youtu.be

[brennahm]

but i still want someone to answer my question because i actually don't know

Try a lawyer. Not an internet forum.

Matty, you're spot on.

[Fumet5uNo]

half agree


but i still want someone to answer my question because i actually don't know


its a hard call having a law back ground yes a cop could take your go pro if he feels it will or could be used as evidence to convict a crime, its called "Plain View Doctrine"

[THoward]

half agree


but i still want someone to answer my question because i actually don't know

Well tried to find out if they can legally do this through State Patrol. All I have gotten is the run around. I know in a car you have absolutely no rights, they can take whatever they choose from it. I am going to assume since Colorado statute considers motorcycles a motor vehicle it would be the same. That begs the question is it considered a personal item on your person or not? If I find out something I'll post.

[Fumet5uNo]

here is a little trick that i use all the time. if you stop for a cop and the go pro is on the bike or helmet take your jacket off or back off before the officer contacts you and cover the go pro or put it in your bike tail or back pack at that point it is no longer plain view, and can not be taken it would take a warrant because the officer would have to "search you" to access it

ps the reason they arrested the guy is because under arrest the officer does not need a warrant to search you.
i would say if your asked for the go pro hand it over if you know you didnt do anything wrong

[tstevens]

here is a little trick that i use all the time. if you stop for a cop and the go pro is on the bike or helmet take your jacket off or back off before the officer contacts you and cover the go pro or put it in your bike tail or back pack at that point it is no longer plain view, and can not be taken it would take a warrant because the officer would have to "search you" to access it

+1 police officer can't move things to get a better view at it, must be in plain view.

[Ghost]

http://www.pixiq.com/article/dallas-deputy-arrests-motorcyclist-wearing-head-cam

I watched as Deputy Sheriff Chris Westbrook created a reason for stopping Mr. Chris Moore, created a false reason for arresting Mr. Moore, and then seized without a warrant (or valid reason) the videotape, claiming it was evidence for a crime that in fact had not occurred (stunt riding).


So, while I'm no lawyer, it seems like police taking your GoPro or even your cell phone (as in recent demonstrations and a few fights/shootings) is a grey area, where they can claim that your GoPro has evidence of a crime on it--stunt riding, speeding, DYP, etc...

But, regardless of the technicalities, I'm sure that if you have a GP and they want to see it, then they'll find a way...

[willb003]

Look up "the photographers right"
its a download pdf that you can print out and should carry with you it your filming.

[Snowman]

Still think they would need a warrant to take an item like that. They can search you but that is for their own safety to make sure you do not have any weapons that can be used against them. Just having a recording device is not considered a weapon, unless of course you are dumb enough to swing it at them.

[Ted]

How about a camera in plain view, but actually records to a device not in plain view .....e.g recording device in trunk ????

[Snowman]

This should be no different than if you had a standard camera laying in the seat next to you in plain sight. I have never heard of an officer confiscating such devices without a warrant.

[asp_125]

I don't remember, where there cases where police confiscated (without warrant) cell phones and video cameras during OWS? Same sort of circumstances IMO. You may be merely a bystander with a camera.

[Ghost]

I don't remember, where there cases where police confiscated (without warrant) cell phones and video cameras during OWS? Same sort of circumstances IMO. You may be merely a bystander with a camera.

Cell phones/cameras were confiscated at various rallies, protests, etc.

Again, whether you have a right to refuse or not doesn't input your camera won't get confiscated anyway.

[Snowman]

Cell phones/cameras were confiscated at various rallies, protests, etc.

Again, whether you have a right to refuse or not doesn't input your camera won't get confiscated anyway.But refusing to hand it over and having it confiscated anyway is grounds that can be used to throw out any evidence contained on those devices.

Cops hate paper work more than anybody.

[bluedogok]

Some of this LEO over zealousness is driven by the large stunter groups that block off interstates in the DFW area to "perform" by blocking traffic with a large group of bikes and irritating the other drivers on the road. There have been a few cases where a driver got pissed off enough to drive through the line trying to block the entire width of the interstate. If a LEO in the DFW area sees a group of 100+ bikes running together, more than likely they are going to think they are up to no good. Not that it justifies the deputy's action, just a little background on something that is perceived as a big problem down there.

[Cornfed]

There is LEO on the forum. Lets get some professional opinions.

[Aaron]

There is LEO on the forum. Lets get some professional opinions.

I'll be glad to help :hibye:

An Officer can seize anything he considers to be evidence of a crime or criminal activity if it is in plain view, or he otherwise legally comes across it (During a consensual or otherwise legal search). This leaves flood gates wide open in a lot of cases, so we ask where is the line? The line is "reasonableness." Reasonableness cannot be defined, it is decided by a Jury or Judge on what a "Reasonable and Prudent" Officer would do in the same situation. In my professional opinion, there are very few traffic statutes in which I'd seize your GoPro as evidence for. DUI, Vehicular Assault/Homicide, and that's just about it. Every other statute, I've got enough evidence to get a conviction before I even light you up.

As for keeping it yourself for evidence to your innocence, that won't fly. Before any criminal proceedings against you, you can ask for what's called a "Discovery Hearing." At this hearing the prosecution (The Officer in most traffic cases), must present to you any and all evidence to be used in trial. Everything from the blood test results in a DUI to the Officer's "private" report (Since we actually write 2-3 reports for every incident). So if he seized your camera, you have a right to get it, or the video recordings from it, back before your trial, with enough time to analyze them yourself. In the case of a cell phone or a camera, we will authorize their release immediately after we process them (Less than a week). Unless it's a homicide, then you've donated it to the city's evidence section forever.

Lastly, rather than seizing the video, the Officer can just subpoena it at a later date (Best bet IMO). Say I get into a fight outside a bar, and I see someone filming it. I can legally identify that person, and inform them that that video will be used as evidence, and they cannot destroy it or otherwise make it unavailable.

To those who are still reading, either get a life or just follow the rules so you never have to worry about it!

[FZRguy]

I think the answer is no, but can a LEO legally confiscate a radar detector?

[Aaron]

To be honest, I don't even know if they are illegal or not lol. Shows how much I care about them. If they are illegal, then the Officer can (but doesn't have to). If not then no. I'll look this statute up when I go back to work.

[madvlad]

Cops can do whatever they feel like so law or not I'm sure they will anyways... just like we are supposed to ride staggered but they ride side by side ALL THE TIME, run red lights cause they don't feel like waiting, texting and talking on the phone while driving. We are all guilty as charged including the law enforcers as they don't follow their own either (maybe there are clean, good and honest cops out there but just like squids make it bad for us fair riders, so do bad cops for you).

[grim]

Cops can do whatever they feel like so law or not I'm sure they will anyways... just like we are supposed to ride staggered but they ride side by side ALL THE TIME, run red lights cause they don't feel like waiting, texting and talking on the phone while driving. We are all guilty as charged including the law enforcers as they don't follow their own either (maybe there are clean, good and honest cops out there but just like squids make it bad for us fair riders, so do bad cops for you).

Actually the law states we can ride side by side.

[Ghosty]

Actually the law states we can ride side by side.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. I know if I'm riding with a buddy we almost always stop at lights side-by-side, but rarely ride that way. Rather spread out or staggered, less crowded, and for higher visibility.

[madvlad]

Actually the law states we can ride side by side.

Then the law doesn't know the law, every cop I have ever asked to this day says it's 100% illegal to do so.

[Bueller]

Then the law doesn't know the law, every cop I have ever asked to this day says it's 100% illegal to do so.
http://www.coloradodot.info/programs/live-to-ride/motorcycle-laws.html


Traffic Laws

Passing or Overtaking: Passing or overtaking a vehicle in the same lane is Illegal in Colorado; no lane sharing or splitting with cars. However, motorcycles can share a lane or "co-ride" with one other motorcycle.

Just not recommended

[Aaron]

Cops can do whatever they feel like so law or not I'm sure they will anyways... just like we are supposed to ride staggered but they ride side by side ALL THE TIME, run red lights cause they don't feel like waiting, texting and talking on the phone while driving. We are all guilty as charged including the law enforcers as they don't follow their own either (maybe there are clean, good and honest cops out there but just like squids make it bad for us fair riders, so do bad cops for you).

I can do whatever I feel like within limits. Luckily the law and my agency understand how important it is for us to bend certain rules in order to get our job done.

As for red lights, I'll tell you right now I run probably 20 a night. I can also tell you I have never once ran one just because I could. When I'm not doing anything, I drive 10 under and sit through every red light. But yes, when someone's life is at stake, or someone feels like every second counts when they're asking for my help, I run red lights. As for talking on the phone while driving, let's just say I couldn't do my job without talking on my phone and driving. And I never text.

[bluedogok]

I think the answer is no, but can a LEO legally confiscate a radar detector?
I think Virgina is only state with a radar detector ban in place and I think their enforcement options includes confiscation. I think there might be some cities (mostly back east) with a ban but I have never heard of confiscation in those cases.

[madvlad]

I completely understand the red light run in a real emergency, I'm not an idiot by any means but jeffco runs them ALL THE TIME just to get to 7eleven faster.

[Ninja2]

Well tried to find out if they can legally do this through State Patrol. All I have gotten is the run around. I know in a car you have absolutely no rights, they can take whatever they choose from it. I am going to assume since Colorado statute considers motorcycles a motor vehicle it would be the same. That begs the question is it considered a personal item on your person or not? If I find out something I'll post.


I think it falls under Criminal Procedure's Plain View a Doctrine and whether the suspect has a right to privacy. As Terri mentioned, a suspect has no right to privacy if pulled over and IF the police sees some sort of evidence in the car that could lead to a different crime or be evidence of the committed offense. I think those cases fall under the "Plain View Doctrine" where an officer can confiscate without a warrant because contraband or evidence is in plain sight, and there is no expectation of privacy if mounted on your bike or helmet, etc.... I think it would withstand a constitutional challenge.
Just my 2 cents.

Also, you do have rights when it comes to your car. First, the police needs to have a reasonable suspicion to pull you over. And when they pull you over they do not have a right to search your car, unless, again, there is reasonable suspicion that an offense was committed, something is in plain sight, or the vehicle is confiscated (i.e. after a DUI). But the police cannot just pull you over for speeding and then search your car.

[Sleev]

Unless the k9 barks. Of course that has never happened to me.

[Cornfed]

I can do whatever I feel like within limits. Luckily the law and my agency understand how important it is for us to bend certain rules in order to get our job done.
.

And this is why I have so much contempt for LEO. The laws are written to protect them, not us. They can do whatever they want under the guise of "reasonable" and "probable" cause. It's complete bullshit. They are paid to know the law and use to their advantage, not the publics advantage, not to protect and serve. The only way for us to level the playing field is to hire an attorney and have him/her follow you around 24hrs a day, just in case. They have put themselves in an adversarial role, them against the public. This and many other reasons is why I have an absolute distrust of LEO.


Having said this I want to thank Aaron for helping to educate us and give us a LEO prospective. You are a stand up guy.

[rluper]

Seems legit to me for them to inspect the video. Though they should ask and then find legal means not be a dick about it as yall mentioned... but it does piss me off about this whole fuss with that texas cop.

If I was the cop being harassed by that one idiot biker I would have not braked and wrecked his ass. Frickin idiots that that need to be shot or sent over to afganistan and then castrated so they can't spread their idiotic genes. Get's annoying hearing one sided stories and citizens who think the government owes them everything and they have rights to break laws. My 2cent soap box.

[Ghosty]

I think it falls under Criminal Procedure's Plain View a Doctrine and whether the suspect has a right to privacy. As Terri mentioned, a suspect has no right to privacy if pulled over and IF the police sees some sort of evidence in the car that could lead to a different crime or be evidence of the committed offense. I think those cases fall under the "Plain View Doctrine" where an officer can confiscate without a warrant because contraband or evidence is in plain sight, and there is no expectation of privacy if mounted on your bike or helmet, etc.... I think it would withstand a constitutional challenge.
Just my 2 cents.

Also, you do have rights when it comes to your car. First, the police needs to have a reasonable suspicion to pull you over. And when they pull you over they do not have a right to search your car, unless, again, there is reasonable suspicion that an offense was committed, something is in plain sight, or the vehicle is confiscated (i.e. after a DUI). But the police cannot just pull you over for speeding and then search your car.
Damn, well that's shitty. Sounds like in the case of a GoPro that's obviously visible (helmet mount), they will figure out a way legally and it will stand up in court. Gay.

:down:

[Ghost]

Damn, well that's shitty. Sounds like in the case of a GoPro that's obviously visible (helmet mount), they will figure out a way legally and it will stand up in court. Gay.

:down:

And that's why I never ride with one...

[Afrobaron]

So for the LEOs in our midst.

From the original news article should this have been approached in the manner I am about to describe.

Since it seems the LEO had no reason to pull over the biker for an offense, he should have pulled the biker and told him that he was not being pulled for a crime however he was informing the person that his camera would be sought by police for the footage it contained. Then take all of the rider's pertinent information for records to ID him and issue the subpoena.
At this point if the rider/camera owner deleted footage or never responded to the court order then they could issue an arrest warrant for obstruction of justice (or similar).

From what I can tell in the news article the officer had no legal reason to pull the rider except to get the footage; especially since he went back to his car for a few minutes before coming back with the obscured plate charge (which i though was mainly a "fix it" ticket).

[asp_125]

Good read.
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-your-rights-photographers

[Aaron]

So for the LEOs in our midst.

From the original news article should this have been approached in the manner I am about to describe.

Since it seems the LEO had no reason to pull over the biker for an offense, he should have pulled the biker and told him that he was not being pulled for a crime however he was informing the person that his camera would be sought by police for the footage it contained. Then take all of the rider's pertinent information for records to ID him and issue the subpoena.
At this point if the rider/camera owner deleted footage or never responded to the court order then they could issue an arrest warrant for obstruction of justice (or similar).

From what I can tell in the news article the officer had no legal reason to pull the rider except to get the footage; especially since he went back to his car for a few minutes before coming back with the obscured plate charge (which i though was mainly a "fix it" ticket).

It's up to the Officer whether he wants to inform you why you're being stopped or not. I usually do, but there have been plenty of times I haven't. Usually I will when it's for a traffic offense, but will not if it's because the stop is in relation to a crime.

I probably would've followed the same procedure you outlined, however I can reasonably see how the Officer may want the camera right then and there. If this was the Dallas incident, the earlier crime was the bikers interfering with the Officers. It's reasonable to believe that this biker was with the others, and may try to destroy or hide footage so as to protect himself and his friends.

Colorado does not have "fix-it" tickets, but even if we did its still a traffic infraction the Officer can detain and cite you for. Just like a cracked windshield or a white light projecting to the rear of the vehicle.

[Spiderman]

Aaron,

Thank you very much for your responses! :up:

[Ghost]

Colorado does not have "fix-it" tickets, but even if we did its still a traffic infraction the Officer can detain and cite you for. Just like a cracked windshield or a white light projecting to the rear of the vehicle.

Off-topic, but I really wish CO had vehicle inspections, I'm sick of being on the bike behind assholes with 0 to 1 functional brake light.

[Samko]

I can do whatever I feel like within limits. Luckily the law and my agency understand how important it is for us to bend certain rules in order to get our job done.

As for red lights, I'll tell you right now I run probably 20 a night. I can also tell you I have never once ran one just because I could. When I'm not doing anything, I drive 10 under and sit through every red light. But yes, when someone's life is at stake, or someone feels like every second counts when they're asking for my help, I run red lights. As for talking on the phone while driving, let's just say I couldn't do my job without talking on my phone and driving. And I never text.


cops never text.. thats funny.. you guys IM each other all the time. I watched it myself ummm... from the back seat hahah

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Enough with blaming shit on squids.... We are all to blame, it's us as sportbike riders that ruin for ourselves.

Please tell me you have never sped through the canyons, went around a car while crossing the double yellow line, sped on the freeway, or/and never made an illegal lane change.....

Sorry..... What was this thread all about???
HUGE difference between a guy that sped thru the canyon and wasn't an asshole to Juhn Q. Public, vs. Starboyz-type douchebaggery. Old geared-up, polite, respectful "non-squid" guy that I am, with my pants around my waist as they should be vs. somewhere down by the guys knees buns flapping in the breeze, no gear, no helmet etc., and with a bad FTP attitude, yeah, I'm gonna get let slide on shit, and walk away after a friendly encounter with the Man. Do I speed? Maybe. Have I passed on a double-yellow? Perhaps. Am I an unprovoked asshole to J.Q.P when I ride? Hell no.

That said, I do not believe they have the right just to pull you over and take the camera without actually catching you doing anything. Like they can't just randomly pull you over and scan data from the black box in your car to see if you've ever been speeding.

[bluedogok]

Off-topic, but I really wish CO had vehicle inspections, I'm sick of being on the bike behind assholes with 0 to 1 functional brake light.
We had yearly inspections in Texas and it didn't seem to help that situation at all, the only time most people would get them fixed is if they failed inspection or was pulled over for it. Most of the inspections that I went through in Oklahoma (before they got rid of it in 2001) and in Texas were very minimal at best.

[Aaron]

Aaron,

Thank you very much for your responses! :up:

It's the only thing I'm good for! Besides Oral of course.


Off-topic, but I really wish CO had vehicle inspections, I'm sick of being on the bike behind assholes with 0 to 1 functional brake light.

I completely agree. But alas the only deference is law enforcement, but I feel like a complete asshole for stopping people with a burned out tail light solely for the burned out tail light.


cops never text.. thats funny.. you guys IM each other all the time. I watched it myself ummm... from the back seat hahah

I said I, not cops. I literally pull over and stop before replying or sending IM's or texts. I've had one close call too many to try typing and driving again. I try to pull over even to read it in fact. But let hunk about this. You crash while texting, you get a ticket. I crash while texting, my name is splashed on every newspaper within a 100 mile radius, I get suspended from work without pay, I lose seniority, I have to go through remedial driving training, my family and I get sued, and I piss my car partner off. Oh, I also get a ticket.

[Ghost]

I completely agree. But alas the only deference is law enforcement, but I feel like a complete asshole for stopping people with a burned out tail light solely for the burned out tail light.


Can you warn them even if you don't ticket them?

I find fewer and fewer people actually inspect their own vehicles, and since there are no inspections, I think no one bothers to check if their shit is actually working or not.

It might not feel good to stop them for just a brake light, but if you save someone else from rear-ending them it might be overall a better outcome...

[Aaron]

That said, I do not believe they have the right just to pull you over and take the camera without actually catching you doing anything. Like they can't just randomly pull you over and scan data from the black box in your car to see if you've ever been speeding.

You're right an Officer cannot do that, and would be out a job of he did. In this case he has Probable Cause to believe the camera contains evidence of a known crime. The detention isn't to get you in trouble, it's to get the video evidence of the crime.


Can you warn them even if you don't ticket them?

I find fewer and fewer people actually inspect their own vehicles, and since there are no inspections, I think no one bothers to check if their shit is actually working or not.

It might not feel good to stop them for just a brake light, but if you save someone else from rear-ending them it might be overall a better outcome...

I absolutely can warn them. It's funny that you mention inspecting your own car, because I had a guy take a headlight out ticket to court because he didn't know it was out. The judge told him everyday he sees hundreds of Officers go to work. But before they do, they walk around their car inspecting it. He found the guy guilty.

[rforsythe]

You're right an Officer cannot do that, and would be out a job of he did. In this case he has Probable Cause to believe the camera contains evidence of a known crime. The detention isn't to get you in trouble, it's to get the video evidence of the crime.

Out of the context of filming while riding, officers in a number of places have been confiscating cell phones and other recording devices, particularly when said device contains evidence of the cop doing something wrong. Evidence just magically disappears at that point, or the officer tries to force you to unlock your phone so they can delete it. The supreme court just ruled that they cannot take the devices or prevent someone from filming them in public without the usual "evidence of a crime" things applying -- seems like common sense but cops all over were fighting it right and left, claiming that people recording their activities was somehow an impediment to their job.

While not totally related to the topic in question, shit like that has me leery about giving a camera to any cop for any reason, especially if I know there isn't anything bad on it that I've done. Then again I don't ride around with one for the hell of it, but still it's good to know your exact rights in that situation. While most cops are proper in this aspect, some dicks have made a federal case out of it, so just be cautious in how you handle these situations.

[Aaron]

I completely understand that, and it's something we've discussed in detail. I know the law allows people to film me, and to be honest I want to be filmed. I'm proud of what I do and how I do it, and if a jury could see the people I have to deal with, and how they act towards me and disobey my commands, they'd gain a lot of respect and trust for us. I've got a dashcam in my car at work, and I use it every chance I get.

There are bad cops out there, but don't distrust the majority because of the actions of the few.

[Penadam]

Had an officer pull me over at night on the bike because my taillight was out. Glad he did, as I had no idea a wire had come loose that day and that it was out. Didn't get a ticket and thanked him for letting me know.

[bluedogok]

Had an officer pull me over at night on the bike because my taillight was out. Glad he did, as I had no idea a wire had come loose that day and that it was out. Didn't get a ticket and thanked him for letting me know.
I had a similar thing happen driving back to OKC from Kansas City, an Oklahoma county sheriff around Perry pulled me over for no taillights but my brake lights worked. I had figured out they weren't working when I stopped for gas on the way back, he was pretty nice about it. The switch failed sometime on the trip, that headlight switch was a pretty expensive piece on a RX-7, I ended up finding a schematic and soldering a jumper wire where the solder connection on the circuit board broke. Much cheaper than an $800 replacement part.