here we go people.

[#1Townie]

How far are we going to let our government go?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/08/21/brandon-j-raub-marine-detained_n_1817484.html

To the leos on here. Will you help us or hurt us when your day comes to say fuck you or yes sir.

Freedom of speech. Gone.

Right to due process. Gone.

This isnt very far from v for vendetta.

[Mother Goose]

Sooooo if a kid says that he's sharpening his axe and going to sever heads talking about school, it's ok to question him. But since this guy is a Marine and talking about government, it's not ok to question him?

[grim]

There may be more to this than the story, It says "former" which means he may not be active duty any longer but he may still be in the IARR (inactive ready reserve) if so he is still owned by the government and cannot make any threats, or say anything really bad about the government.

Just my thoughts though.

[#1Townie]

Yup. Not to mention locking him up. We have right to freedom of speech. PERIOD.

[mauser72]

I think your missing the point its ok to question but its also ok for the individual to decline questioning its not ok to detain anyone for speech

[#1Townie]

Btw guys its song lyrics. Our service members dont take a oath to our government.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/swollenmembers/bringmedown.html

[rforsythe]

Questioning aside, he's saying they are asking him about comments made on a closed (non public page). If that's true, they watched what he said and acted on it, which is beyond fucked up.

Even more, they detained him for a month for nothing more than saying the same shit half the people on this site post routinely. There is nothing justifiable or legal about it, assuming the article is fully truthful. Of course it may not be.

[Ezzzzy1]

Dont mistake someone that is in the service as a "normal" American.... They have signed their life away and have to play by different rules.

Not saying what is going on is fair but to me the guy seems just as crazy as his government.

[#1Townie]

Yeah they may not be the same but when does this shit end? Where is the line? Tons of vets spoke out during Vietnam. Did they get locked up and forced meds? How long is he in there? What threat did he pose?

I wonder if this is him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u0d6N16IV8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Ghosty]

Already discussing this incident on CRN. Btw, your "Freedom of Speech" isn't no-holds-barred-anything-goes-100%. Prime example is making threats against the President, especially post-9/11, etc. I'll just copy my post here:


Ok, interesting. I think being questioned by the FBI and released would be a viable, just keep him on your radar since his comments are obviously of a violent nature, regardless if the writer "meant no harm" just spouting. I do NOT however agree with incarcerating him in a mental asylum unless he truly has been diagnosed by a non-government multiple outside accredited psychiatrists who will vouch that he is unstable and dangerous to himself or others. Just like the existing laws concerning how much is required for a shrink to commit you. Nothing new.

It's one thing to just scream about how much you hate the government, revolution, etc. If that's your view, than go for it, without repurcussion or questioning. But another when you add a couple of the things in there. Not surprised it would raise some eyebrows.

Just as I'm not surprised when Suicidal Tendencies were questioned because one of their songs had the lyrics about shooting Reagan. No biggie, they were questioned and that is all, nothing more. Same thing for Marcy Playground when their lyrics said "I shot the President, now I'm going to Disneyland." LOL!

Bman's response to me:

Aye Praveen, I think yet another line has been crossed that is to the detriment of individual freedoms. His words are simplistic, crass, and poorly spoken, yet they are fundamentally no different than many founders quotes.

I think a part of their decision to haul him off is that he is a trained killer and combat veteran. If true, this by consequence means that anyone who is former mil & veteran should be especially careful of utilizing their 1st amendment rights.
/agreed

[#1Townie]

Guys he quoted song lyrics. Song lyrics!

I said fuck authority...

[rforsythe]

What are the written rules about service members and their rights, anyway? Someone have a link to an official source? I didn't realize the rules are *that* different when it comes to this kind of stuff, though I suppose it makes sense to a point.

[#1Townie]

What are the written rules about service members and their rights, anyway? Someone have a link to an official source? I didn't realize the rules are *that* different when it comes to this kind of stuff, though I suppose it makes sense to a point.

http://nlgmltf.org/leaflets/GI_Rights_free_speech.html

[Drano]

Article 88 of the UCMJ States, "Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."

Article 117, "Any person subject to this chapter who uses provoking or reproachful words or gestures towards any other person subject to this chapter shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."

[grim]

^^ precisely what my point was, and Ej is correct as well, when you join the military you are owned by the government, you do not make choices they make choices for you. Freedom is not free.

[#1Townie]

So now he faced a court martial from a psych ward? Come on guys he was not active duty. There has neen no arrest. No military court. Its not actions or words against the president. He literally quoted a song.

HE QUOTED A SONG!

is this fact slipping the grasp? The quotes that they are using doesn't dont even talk about the repeated remarks of starting the next revolution. No just his quotes from songs.

Also just because he is/was a soldier does not mean he doesnt have due process. Hold on let me look for it.

[modette99]

I think its time for a revolution too...*shrug* Maybe I'll be "questioned" for saying such things.

[Ghosty]

So now he faced a court martial from a psych ward? Come on guys he was not active duty. There has neen no arrest. No military court. Its not actions or words against the president. He literally quoted a song.

HE QUOTED A SONG!

is this fact slipping the grasp? The quotes that they are using doesn't dont even talk about the repeated remarks of starting the next revolution. No just his quotes from songs.
I'm not defending anything beyond the initial "FBI questioning" or whatever by any means. Read my post above. And you're absolutely right about deserving due process, lawyer, and everything public, not some Bush era "secret CIA black site prison".

But try to not have tunnel vision and simply rely on "it's just a song lyric". This is obviously a very complex issue, not just a matter of "FREE SPEECH NO MATTER WHAT!". Instead try put it in context of all the factors. A possible trend or escalation, where no one (except the gun-nut revolutionary Unabomber types) want to see what might happen next.

From CRN 'Bman':

I feel like I am standing at a great crossroads. As if a storm of destiny is about to pick me up and take me to fight a great battle. A battle I could have never imagined existed. 7/24/12

We MUST rise up and take our country back. 7/30/12

I am standing against a great evil. I will do it all by myself if I have to. 8/4/12

This is the part where I tell the Federal Government to go fuck itself. This is the part where I tell Generals, training our young men to fight Americans, I am coming for you. The Veterans will be with me. 8/9/12

I’m starting the Revolution. I’m done waiting. 8/10/12

Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads. 8/13/12 <- a lyric from a song called Bring Me Down by a band called Swollen Members.

The Revolution will come for me. Men will be at my door soon to pick me up to lead it. 8/14/12

The Revolution is here. And I will lead it. 8/14/12

[#1Townie]

I know the contexts and the escalating posts. Already read them. I will absolutely stand at the free speech line. There should be no but. NONE! not to mention how the fuck did the feds even find this? Fuck that. Fuck the whole they monitor for our safety argument. You guys are not grasping this. The more we give up a right here ir a right there we lose that for life! You say the bush era.... are you fucking kidding me bro? Bush must have signed ndaa. No bro. This isnt a red blue problem. That shit is a joke!

Have you seen the reports of us the army preparing for the fight against civilians?

You have the texts from his posts but have you heard the interviews? He has seen doctors for 10-15the min at a time. A 20 min court hearing.

No, fuck that. This shit needs to end.

[rluper]

I know the contexts and the escalating posts. Already read them. I will absolutely stand at the free speech line. There should be no but. NONE! not to mention how the fuck did the feds even find this? Fuck that. Fuck the whole they monitor for our safety argument. You guys are not grasping this. The more we give up a right here ir a right there we lose that for life! You say the bush era.... are you fucking kidding me bro? Bush must have signed ndaa. No bro. This isnt a red blue problem. That shit is a joke!

Have you seen the reports of us the army preparing for the fight against civilians?

You have the texts from his posts but have you heard the interviews? He has seen doctors for 10-15the min at a time. A 20 min court hearing.

No, fuck that. This shit needs to end.
If he wasn't associated with the military I would agree. But I'm sure there are some unknowns and as the code says there are certain things you are limited to while in service, active/reserve.. regardless of it being from a song. Especially with the past incidents of shootings (Maj who went on shooting spree) I'm not surprised they jumped on this because of the "signs".

Being prior military/reserve/active/whatever he already can easily access any airforce/marine/army/navy base anywhere which adds to his risk factor.

I hope he ends up okay but I doubt we are getting the full picture of the situation from the news reporters.

[Ghosty]

Especially with the past incidents of shootings (Maj who went on shooting spree) I'm not surprised they jumped on this because of the "signs".
AND, exactly how many of the hyper-patriots would be pissed if you take this exact same situation/story, ONLY change is: replace this guy with the Ft.Hood (Arab/Muslim) shooter? I'm taking a wild guess of... ZERO would even give a shit, or make even 5% of the hullaballoo about it.

amirite?...

*food for thought*

[#1Townie]

See we are so warped into we need this for our protection. Shit like this is the very reason i left co. This whole leaving our protection in the hands of others makes me sick.

Lets just say he was planning a shooting rampage. Even though he is not being charged with anything of the sort. No wait he was never charged with a crime. No charges have been filed. Not a single one. He wasnt arrested by a jag department.

He is not being held in a cell. He has not had a court date. He is being held indefinitely with no due process. It doesn't matter what he did for a living he still has rights. No he was locked up and is now being held with no charges. No court dates. No due process.

Guys this is america not russa. Our constitutional rights is something that millions have died for. That sacrifice is being thrown out the window. We dishonor every brave man and woman that laid their lives on the line to protect liberty.

Where does this stop?? If we let the government do this kind of crap this world will get scary fast! We cant allow our government to watch us like this. We just cant find this kind of crap acceptable. You think mass shootings are bad? WIt until people just start disappearing. Wait until your kids post something about the president and gets picked up for it.

Freedom? What fucking freedom?

Yeah you guys are right this dude was so badass he had to ask for a ride to get this revolution started. Sounds like he had some real plans to hurt people.

You guys remember today. Remember that you were okay with this. In 20 years we will see how the for our protection works for this country.

[Ghosty]

And you can continue to go on the assumption that everyone is "OK" with this, I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS, but it does make it easier to get all worked up about it, if you believe some of us are ok with this. The reality is most of us aren't 100% shocked about it, in light of all the context and recent shootings. Many concerned people are questioning the government agencies on why the Ft.Hood shooter, the Theater shooter, etc. never threw up any red flags. So if you were the government, then what? Damned if you do, damned if you don't? Innocent people got killed, but at least we didn't dare err on the side of caution? Hence the entire debate. It's not exactly cut & dry easy, imo.

Like I mentioned already, he should've been questioned, then if necessary, evaluated by a non-government multiple (at least two outside-party) accredited psychiatrists who specialize in this area, not just hauled off without a warrant or charges. Then follow the same rule of law that applies to everyone else, with all the rights afforded to any citizen when determining if ANYONE is a violent threat to themselves or anyone else. Psychiatrists have this power, but it is VERY limited. Seems like the government skipped a step or two, dunno all the facts and exact sequence of events, yet.

If he was still active-duty, then a different set of rules might apply.

[#1Townie]

HE IS NOT ACTUVE DUTY. EVEN IF HE WAS ACTIVE DUTY THERE IS STILL A DUE PROCESS FOR HIM.

Honestly man i dint care about any mass shooting. Not a single fuck.

The whole we have to be protected argument is for the weak and scared. Who is going to protect you from our government?

Look man im sorry if its heartless but every time something bad happens we need to just move on. We dont need more laws. Infact these mass shootings shouldnt even get reported on. The whole country bitchi g and crying about how did our government let this happen is what these sick fucks want. They want their names out there being talked about. They want to make a mark on the world. Stop giving these assholes what they want.

Look at rampart shooting range. One accident happened up there. Oh we better shut it down. We keep crying and want more laws. Bigger government. 911.. they got bix cutters on the plane? No we need to fix that. Now women and children are subjects to horrifying "safety" measures. Pat downs that can only compare to prison. Big brother watching everything we say and do. If you think they are not this iz a perfect example.

No bro this country is not longer land of the free home od the brave. Its land of the watched home of the coward.

[grim]

^^Have you ever been overseas? to a different country other than Canada?

[modette99]

HE IS NOT ACTUVE DUTY. EVEN IF HE WAS ACTIVE DUTY THERE IS STILL A DUE PROCESS FOR HIM.

Honestly man i dint care about any mass shooting. Not a single fuck.

The whole we have to be protected argument is for the weak and scared. Who is going to protect you from our government?

Look man im sorry if its heartless but every time something bad happens we need to just move on. We dont need more laws. Infact these mass shootings shouldnt even get reported on. The whole country bitchi g and crying about how did our government let this happen is what these sick fucks want. They want their names out there being talked about. They want to make a mark on the world. Stop giving these assholes what they want.

Look at rampart shooting range. One accident happened up there. Oh we better shut it down. We keep crying and want more laws. Bigger government. 911.. they got bix cutters on the plane? No we need to fix that. Now women and children are subjects to horrifying "safety" measures. Pat downs that can only compare to prison. Big brother watching everything we say and do. If you think they are not this iz a perfect example.

No bro this country is not longer land of the free home od the brave. Its land of the watched home of the coward.

+11111111111111111

[modette99]

^^Have you ever been overseas? to a different country other than Canada?

Yep and they screen passengers by profiling they do not grab nut sacs and fondle boobs. True in airports like in Zurich even before 9/11 they had armed police walking around with machine guns. That never bothered me...we can have armed police too with machine guns...but we need to profile not just rely on a person making $12/hr screening you.

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about because I flew when things were pretty commons sense. I also was on a Diplomatic Passport most my life. In Africa leaving Togo we did not even slow down walking through security...flashed the passports the screens yelled at us and we kept moving.

Really if anyone wants to board a plane with a Bomb they just need to go to Africa and catch a flight. Really not that hard. I'm surprised it has not been done.

[modette99]

#1Townie - How about people in Aurora calling for the movie theater to be tore down. I roll my eyes when I hear that, or that they want Cinamark to spent $$$$$ in making a memorial. Seriously people it sucked that it happened but move the fuck on with life. I'm surprised they have not added some new laws on the books like no orange hair, or no customs allowed in theaters.

People all in a panic over one crazy idiot.

I agree with you on Rampart Range, it was a silly move to close the range although the trash pissed me off all it did was chase these people out deeper into Rampart Range and Mt Herman Rd. Now they closed some spots on Mt Herman Rd, and guess what people are going deeper into the forest. USFS it stupid most of the time, embrace an area and try and build it up to be safe...just an idea. Oh wait that be crazy.

[Drano]

Questioning aside, he's saying they are asking him about comments made on a closed (non public page). If that's true, they watched what he said and acted on it, which is beyond fucked up.


Dee Rybiski, an FBI spokeswoman in Richmond, said there was no Facebook snooping by her agency.
"We received quite a few complaints about what were perceived as threatening posts," she said. "Given the circumstances with the things that have gone on in the country with some of these mass shootings, it would be horrible for law enforcement not to pay attention to complaints."


He wasn't being monitored. He posted it on facebook and one or more of his "friends" felt that his post was threatening and called the cops.

[salsashark]

#1Townie - How about people in Aurora calling for the movie theater to be tore down. I roll my eyes when I hear that, or that they want Cinamark to spent $$$$$ in making a memorial. Seriously people it sucked that it happened but move the fuck on with life. I'm surprised they have not added some new laws on the books like no orange hair, or no customs allowed in theaters.

People all in a panic over one crazy idiot.


We were talking about it this morning... Complete flippin idiots!

Cinemark needs to go in, clean up the mess, do a bit of remodeling and re-open. My personal opinion (if I owned the theater), put a glass case in the lobby or a hallway as a lasting memorial, then re-open with a huge party. Make it a PR bonanza. None of this "we're scared of one idiot" crap.

Sack up, and move on.

I've always believed that how we, as Americans, emerge from tragedy (and IMO, this barely counts) is what defines us as Americans.

[modette99]

Yep I agree with salsashark....the whole panic thing is getting old.

From a business standpoint, tearing the place down is silly. Loss of jobs, loss of tax income for the city/county/state. Building a memorial (I assume people envision some huge thing)...who maintains it over the long haul? Tear the place down and build a memorial is also talked about. Really!!! Who buys the property? Who maintain's the property/memorial? Oh you expect a business (Cinamark) to do this? That is just nuts.

I think salsashark has it right. Put up a case with pictures and maybe select items family would like and call it good. I hope the place remodels and reopens. I wonder if the employees are getting paid or they been left to Unemployment insurance to fend for themselves?

[salsashark]

I wonder if the employees are getting paid or they been left to Unemployment insurance to fend for themselves?

Nope... one of my coworker's has a son who works/ed there. He's basically out of a job while their closed, and because there was never an actual termination or anything, unemployment won't kick in. He's not hurt, so no disability. From what I understand, the kid's basically stuck in limbo.

[Ghosty]

Same rationale that Bush went to that baseball game. Gotta move on, not tear down anything, that's ludicrous. You just let the psycho win. Now if the company believes with so many deaths, there is "bad juju" there permanently, and as a business decision that they think it will just piss off everyone and go downhill, that's another story. But why not try cleaning it up, re-opening it, see how it goes...

[#1Townie]

Agreed with both you guys. The same garbage happened here in carson last year after the ihop shooting. This is a small town. We only have one ihop. Lol. They remodeled it but didnt tear it down.

Sad things will always happen. Have we not learned after years of adding laws onto laws to help protect us? It doesnt work. The only way the government can 100% protect us is to lock us all up in padded rooms and never leave it. Feed us and control our workouts. No social interaction.

Im cool with that. I would rather take care of my own. I would rather be the heartless bastard that just moves on with my life.

[salsashark]

That's purely a business decision. It shouldn't be in the hands of people who have absolutely no skin in the game. People demanding that they tear it down need to buy the ground, the building and the business then they can whatever the hell they want with it.

[#1Townie]

Agreed salsa.

[modette99]

Nope... one of my coworker's has a son who works/ed there. He's basically out of a job while their closed, and because there was never an actual termination or anything, unemployment won't kick in. He's not hurt, so no disability. From what I understand, the kid's basically stuck in limbo.

Now that is the type of story the employees should be calling the news about. What about THEM. See that is where I believe Cinamark should step up. After all I bet they had insurance that is covering their losses while closed...so thus the employee should be paid.