Harley rider down. Helmet would have saved him.

[Clovis]

So Brian (livs4twisities) and I are in Farmington, NM tonight after a fun 600 mile ride through Taos. With the sun going down we were both racing to get here before dark. Crusing at our usual Taos pace an oncoming flashes their lifts at us. I thought it must be a cop up ahead but about a mile later we came a across a caravan of U-hauls pulled over, a flipped Harley and the rider laying on the ground.

Hey said it happen and believe he lost sight of the road in the sun (one of those up heal lefties that crest the hill and continues.

They said he was ridig at normal highway speeds. We stopped to offer our help and have 911 the GPS cords for flight for life. This was one of the worst lookig wrecks I've seen up close. His face was co erred in bold and copious amounts of blood were pooling under him. Zero gear. Just jeans, tshirt, boots and a hat.

It appeared that his forehead was partially crushed in from hitting a rock but it could have just been the flesh and swealing. He was of of it, he knew his name but not much else other then he's married with 3 kids and a Vietnam vet.

I hope he pulls through but it didn't look likely to me. The sad thing is if he had at least a halmet on he would have been okay save for some major road rash.

Wear your gear guys.

[madvlad]

That's horrible man, sure hope he'll oull through.

[jcj81]

No good, hope it turns out for the best, it is a good reminder to wear gear if you've ever had to sit in the ER while they scub road rash with a brush you never want to feel that again but at least I was able to feel it, after looking at my helmet later that day it had a good mark on one side from the road. I took a short ride today so many riders dont wear any gear, to many to count and only did 60 miles or so.

[biikChiQ]

.. hope he pulls through. scary.

[Sarge]

I was on the Ortega Highway in SoCal once a few years back moving through an S turn or double switchback when I saw three "cruiser" riders coming in the opposite direction. The guy in the middle went into a mad tank-slapper and flew off of the highway while the other two guys just kept riding. I was the first on the scene and had to lift the bike off of the guy (pipes were burning his broken leg). Same thing for the most part, guy barely conscious, no helmet or gear, leather vest without sleeves. I fully believe in the freedom of choice as far as helmets and the like are concerned, but I have NEVER ridden without one.

The worst thing about too many of these accidents (riders without helmets, etc) is the general lack of skill you see associated with the crash. I.e., simple mistake leads to low slide or tankslapper, etc, something anybody with a jacket and helmet would walk away from, but not wearing a helmet turns that accident into a fatality... Sad, really.

[#1Townie]

Kind of a bold statement about the lid. Head injuries are way to tricky to claim it WOULD have saves him. Gear does not guarantee 100% protection.

I am sorry you had to witness this. Few years ago i got to watch a friend take his last breath after a wreck after doing the emily parade. I will never forget those emotions.

[Clovis]

Well, he struck the front of his head and the back. A full face helmet would have likely saved him.

I'm starting to lean less towards rider choice and more towards a helmet law after seeing this.

[Darth Do'Urden]

Kind of a bold statement about the lid. Head injuries are way to tricky to claim it WOULD have saves him. Gear does not guarantee 100% protection.

Having gone down twice now, once against a damn deer, I find it hard to believe in many scenarios where a helmet would NOT save one's life. Sure, there's the odd situation where internal bleeding or plain being SMEARED by a semi-truck will do you in regardless of gear. But in most "normal" circumstances of a wreck, I believe gear (especially a helmet) will save your life.

No, there's no guarantee of 100% protection, to which my ankle, knee, wrist, forearm, and eye can attest. But I know for a fact that I would at least me faceless, if not outright deceased if it wasn't for my helmet in my of my wrecks.

So in my experience, it's not a bold statement at all.


I'm starting to lean less towards rider choice and more towards a helmet law after seeing this.

Not me. If someone wants to risk their life just so they can feel the wind through their hair, then I say let the brainless weed themselves out. Their having a freedom to choose does not affect my personal decision one way or the other.

I am totally against forcing someone to be safe. When I was in the Navy I had a Chief (E-7) tell me that "safety" was invented to keep stupid people alive. That was the full extent of his safety sermon. The point being that if you're not smart enough to protect yourself as a means of selfish self-preservation, then you're probably not smart enough to keep around to begin with.

I agree.

[Bueller]

Well, he struck the front of his head and the back. A full face helmet would have likely saved him.

I'm starting to lean less towards rider choice and more towards a helmet law after seeing this.

Oh for fucks sake! There are many car wrecks that result in head injuries that might have been prevented by a helmet. They wear them in race cars, why not force us to wear them in the cage too. It might keep you alive!

[Clovis]

Darth - can argument could be made that it does effect you by way of taxes, increases on insurance premiums (I think my medical coverage on the bike is $100/300k).

Then there's the argument about the effect on loved ones and those around you. Otherwise I'm all for letting the retarded throw them selves off a cliff.

[CaptGoodvibes]

Otherwise I'm all for letting the retarded throw them selves off a cliff.

I would buy season tickets for that!

[Sarge]

To play Devil's Advocate just a bit here...

I definitely understand the insurance implications for the masses when helmetless riders are injured in accidents that could have been less severe should a helmet have been worn, but consider this:

Brain surgery is a LOT more expensive than a funeral...

[Darth Do'Urden]

Brain surgery is a LOT more expensive than a funeral...

Are there any statistics available on how many people have had to have brain surgery even though they were wearing a helmet? Not being a smartass, truly wondering. If I had to guess, I'd say VERY few...but I honestly don't know.

[#1Townie]

Having gone down twice now, once against a damn deer, I find it hard to believe in many scenarios where a helmet would NOT save one's life. Sure, there's the odd situation where internal bleeding or plain being SMEARED by a semi-truck will do you in regardless of gear. But in most "normal" circumstances of a wreck, I believe gear (especially a helmet) will save your life.

No, there's no guarantee of 100% protection, to which my ankle, knee, wrist, forearm, and eye can attest. But I know for a fact that I would at least me faceless, if not outright deceased if it wasn't for my helmet in my of my wrecks.

So in my experience, it's not a bold statement at all.



Not me. If someone wants to risk their life just so they can feel the wind through their hair, then I say let the brainless weed themselves out. Their having a freedom to choose does not affect my personal decision one way or the other.

I am totally against forcing someone to be safe. When I was in the Navy I had a Chief (E-7) tell me that "safety" was invented to keep stupid people alive. That was the full extent of his safety sermon. The point being that if you're not smart enough to protect yourself as a means of selfish self-preservation, then you're probably not smart enough to keep around to begin with.

I agree.

You are kidding right? Tons of accidents happen everyday that kill people in cars.they have metal surrounding them and air bags. If they are still being killed you really think that leather and dome will save you?

No matter how sturdy the helmet is you can still have massive brain damage. You know the whole yoke in a egg idea?

This is not the thread for this chat. I also do endorse riding with a helmet but i like the idea of being able to make the choice.

[grim]

I saw how hard darth hit is head right in front of me, if he did not have a helmet on I Gurantee you he would not be advising everyone to wear there damn gear today!

[#1Townie]

Okay and??? I dont need to see anyone else go down. Ive done it. Have a old tld lid i keep around for stories. Im just saying a lid WILL NOT GUARANTEE SURVIVAL.

Im a firm believer in chicks dig scars not retards. I also know that no matter how much gear i wear i still have a chance of kicking the bucket.

[Darth Do'Urden]

Okay and??? I dont need to see anyone else go down. Ive done it. Have a old tld lid i keep around for stories. Im just saying a lid WILL NOT GUARANTEE SURVIVAL.

Im a firm believer in chicks dig scars not retards. I also know that no matter how much gear i wear i still have a chance of kicking the bucket.

Dude, no one is in here saying that any amount of gear will make you invincible. You can certainly be wearing all of the best gear and still die. Gary knows all about that (sorry, Gary).

But if you DO wear the appropriate gear, then you EXPONENTIALLY increase your chances of survival. Not just double, or triple, but EXPONENTIALLY.

I don't know the details beyond what's been conveyed in this thread, but it sounds very much like the rider at the beginning of this thread would not have sustained the damage he did if he'd been wearing a helmet. If he did in fact die (?), then I highly suspect he'd be alive today and not much worse for wear (compared to death) had he been wearing a helmet. All of this is supposing that his head wasn't collapsed by the weight of a car or something. But from the sounds of it, a helmet would have surely saved his life, and I'm not talking about a vegetative state.

Invincibility? No. Tremendously better than dying and VASTLY improving your chances? Just ask the Harley rider.

Again, I'm not an advocate of a helmet law, just so we're clear. Freedom to choose does not negate my choice to wear a helmet and save my own life. It's worked well for me twice now. Hopefully there's not a third, but if so, I'll be prepared by wearing my gear.

[#1Townie]

Its a 67% chance. Just incase you want the numbers.

Im arguing that you cant make the claim that IT WOULD HAVE SAVED HIM. Head injuries are impossible to predict.

[madvlad]

And someone put another quarter in the merry go round lol... how many times has this been discussed? Way too damn many, each person is grown enough to know what to do or not do, what to wear etc... all we can do is suggest.

[Darth Do'Urden]

Its a 67% chance. Just incase you want the numbers.

Im arguing that you cant make the claim that IT WOULD HAVE SAVED HIM. Head injuries are impossible to predict.

Then argue with a cited source. You've yet to impress me enough for me to just take your word for it.

[CaptGoodvibes]

It's fun to read this topic on any Harley forum. So funny!!!

[Bueller]

Everybody here wears helmets, I don't get why we have to tell each other to wear something we all wear already. What I don't agree with is laws forcing us to wear helmets. That is the only argument I have.

[BadR6Man]

If he was wearing a helmet, which type of helmet do you really think he would have been wearing? Hmm?

[Darth Do'Urden]

If he was wearing a helmet, which type of helmet do you really think he would have been wearing? Hmm?

Valid point.

Not one that would have done him a damn bit of good.

[#1Townie]

Then argue with a cited source. You've yet to impress me enough for me to just take your word for it.

Im not trying to impress you. Who the fuck cares what you have to say. Tell you what jump from your bike at 50 mph head first into a tree. See what happens.

67 percent more protection. Not 100. This leaves alot of room for shit to still happen. Go do your own homework. The argument of i went down really really hard on my head and therefore i know for a fact my helmet will save me no matter what or when or where.

[dirkterrell]

Darth - can argument could be made that it does effect you by way of taxes, increases on insurance premiums (I think my medical coverage on the bike is $100/300k).


That's a slippery slope to jump on, even if it is true, and I have not yet seen any conclusive evidence supporting that claim. Motorcycling is inherently more dangerous than being in a car, so the above could be used to support the claim that we should just ban motorcycles altogether. Lawmakers shouldn't be telling us what safety gear we should wear. That's a downward spiral that will ultimately end riding.

[JKOL]

Im not trying to impress you. Who the fuck cares what you have to say. Tell you what jump from your bike at 50 mph head first into a tree. See what happens.

67 percent more protection. Not 100. This leaves alot of room for shit to still happen. Go do your own homework. The argument of i went down really really hard on my head and therefore i know for a fact my helmet will save me no matter what or when or where.

Judging by your posts, and not just in this topic, I think you are proof helmets can't 100% prevent head injuries. You have to be one of the most negative and argumentative people I have ever encountered in a forum.

Is it even possible that someone pisses in your Cheerios every day?

[#1Townie]

Judging by your posts, and not just in this topic, I think you are proof helmets can't 100% prevent head injuries. You have to be one of the most negative and argumentative people I have ever encountered in a forum.

Is it even possible that someone pisses in your Cheerios every day?

Haha possibly.

You mad bro?

[grim]

Bueller, how do you feel about the law that any child under the age of 18 I (i think that's the age) on the passenger seat must wear a helmet?

[JKOL]

Haha possibly.

You mad bro?

Not even a little, just making an observation and avoiding the pile of work sitting on my desk.

:cheers:

[laspariahs]

15%-50%-67% more protection, whatever I'll just keep on wearing mine.....

[dirkterrell]

Interesting read from 24 years ago:

http://www.motorists.org/seat-belt-laws/social-cost

[TinkerinWstuff]

Peer pressure should be telling people that it's cool to wear helmets.

when you don't agree with someone's right to free choice, you shouldn't turn to gov't to force your feelings on another individual lest the tables be turned and soon you find someone forcing their opinions on you.

freedom and free choice isn't easy or everyone would do it.

I am sorry for the man who was hurt, his family, and the people who had to see it. For the sake of his kids, he should have made smarter choices.

[grim]

Peer pressure should be telling people that it's cool to wear helmets.

when you don't agree with someone's right to free choice, you shouldn't turn to gov't to force your feelings on another individual lest the tables be turned and soon you find someone forcing their opinions on you.

freedom and free choice isn't easy or everyone would do it.

I am sorry for the man who was hurt, his family, and the people who had to see it. For the sake of his kids, he should have made smarter choices.

This, one could say it was selfish of him to not wear protective gear that MAY have saved his life so that his children could see there father live to fight another day.

[#1Townie]

Not even a little, just making an observation and avoiding the pile of work sitting on my desk.

:cheers:
SWEET! hope i helped. DAMN THE MAN!


Bueller, how do you feel about the law that any child under the age of 18 I (i think that's the age) on the passenger seat must wear a helmet?
Not sure about him but i agree with it.


This, one could say it was selfish of him to not wear protective gear that MAY have saved his life so that his children could see there father live to fight another day.
I like how you worded that.

[dirkterrell]

when you don't agree with someone's right to free choice, you shouldn't turn to gov't to force your feelings on another individual lest the tables be turned and soon you find someone forcing their opinions on you.


If only more people in this country understood this, and realized that freedom has costs. You know, one of the basic ideas on which this country was founded. Risk aversion has become endemic, and the politicians are more than happy to keep reining in freedom, bit by bit, until we're all just a bunch of sheep that tremble at their feet. Government exists primarily to ensure that people's freedoms are not abridged by others, not to protect people from themselves.

[JKOL]

Its not the government's job to tell us to wear helmets. If you are smart enough to coordinate the throttle/clutch/shifter/brakes then you have enough intelligence to determine that the chances of suffering a traumatic head injury are much higher if you aren't wearing a helmet. Given that knowledge, if you choose to ride without a helmet, don't expect me to be sad for you if you skid to a stop using your forehead.

Despite what the majority of Harley riders think, a black and orange bandana is not adequate protection and neither are those reinforced yamakas with a chin strap that some people try to pass off as helmets. Helmets are for protection, not style, that is why I wear the best helmet I can afford because I fully understand and accept the fact that when it comes to crashing motorcycles, it is not a matter of if but when.

[grim]

Its not the government's job to tell us to wear helmets. If you are smart enough to coordinate the throttle/clutch/shifter/brakes then you have enough intelligence to determine that the chances of suffering a traumatic head injury are much higher if you aren't wearing a helmet. Given that knowledge, if you choose to ride without a helmet, don't expect me to be sad for you if you skid to a stop using your forehead.

Despite what the majority of Harley riders think, a black and orange bandana is not adequate protection and neither are those reinforced yamakas with a chin strap that some people try to pass off as helmets. Helmets are for protection, not style, that is why I wear the best helmet I can afford because I fully understand and accept the fact that when it comes to crashing motorcycles, it is not a matter of if but when.

Well i'm rich so i buy a helmet that has great protection and style! :doublefinger:





















just kidding (about the rich part)

[bornwildnfree]

I don't want the government to make me chose to wear a helmet. I don't even like it when they come out with new safety features for cars. The safer you feel in a vehicle the less you pay attention. I think people are idiots if they don't protect themselves with a helmet but that's their choice. I would rather make myself safe than be told what is and isn't a good idea.

If we give up the right to choose, what will they want to regulate next to keep us all safe? Intelligent Transportation Systems is already looking at being able to regulate everything from your car speed to pulling you over and stopping you on the side of the road and there is no provision for motorcycles so there is a very real chance they ban them all together. We are already a self regulated group. Most of the newer generations of riders wear helmet and gear and we wear it as a matter of pride. For those who chose not to, well, there are 7 billion people on the face of the planet. Is life so precious?

[TinkerinWstuff]

Maybe we'd be better off if society would turn the mirror on ourselves and not blame government? Afterall, government is a reflection of us and how we vote.

Just an observation and not saying anything to anyone specific. Sort of an epiphany that dawned on me. We all like to blame "government" for our problems like we had nothing to do with it.

[bulldog]

Anyone consider the rising cost of healthcare that are against helmet laws? So yeah people have a choice, but it will end up with higher hospital costs which therefore impact everyone's insurance rates. Not to mention the extra time and money it takes for these doctors, nurses, surgeons, etc to take on a person who most likely would have received less injuries if they were wearing proper gear. Anyone have any idea how much it costs to treat brain injuries!!!

just something to think about........

[TinkerinWstuff]

Anyone consider the rising cost of healthcare that are against helmet laws? So yeah people have a choice, but it will end up with higher hospital costs which therefore impact everyone's insurance rates. Not to mention the extra time and money it takes for these doctors, nurses, surgeons, etc to take on a person who most likely would have received less injuries if they were wearing proper gear. Anyone have any idea how much it costs to treat brain injuries!!!

just something to think about........

let me apologize for my bluntness here but

fuck off and bullshit.

when my buddy can go in and pay cash for a surgery and pay less than it would be in insurance co-pays paid by people covered by insurance; then helmet injuries have little to NOTHING to do with the rising cost of insurance.

There is plenty wrong with the the health care insurance costs but you sir have been brainwashed - head injuries - pun intended.

your argument is the same reason we now grope young children and grandma at the airport security line - the siren song "for the betterment of society", to pay less, to be safer, blah blah blah.

Sorry, I'll pick freedom while peer pressure, religion, what-have-you, keeps society "in-line"

[bulldog]

let me apologize for my bluntness here but

fuck off and bullshit.

when my buddy can go in and pay cash for a surgery that would be less than the insurance co-pays paid by people covered by insurance; then helmet injuries have little to NOTHING to do with the rising cost of insurance.

There is plenty wrong with the the health care insurance costs but you sir have been brainwashed - head injuries - pun intended. Serious bro, you should learn how to talk to people before you meet the wrong person. In no way was my post intened for you or anyone in particular, so there is no need to act that way. Grow up!!!

Anyways I say maybe 1% of the population can pay for a surgery on their own with no insurance! They can range from $100K to $1 million. How do I know this, because this is what a do for a living. If you think that a insurance bill of $500K compared to one worth $5K doesn't raise costs of a insurance premiums then you are greatly fooled and don't understand American healthcare. Plus you know how many claims I see for Medicaid (State Funded mainly by tax dollars) for people that have brain injuries that could have been prevented if they had a helmet. Sure they make their own decision to not wear a helmet, but then cry that they need help to pay for the injuries....

[TinkerinWstuff]

Relax. You never had a buddy disagree with you and tell you to fuck off?

The Public can't pay cash for medical procedures because they don't start saving early. If they took that $800 a month their family insurance policy cost them and put that away in savings they'd be better off.

[bulldog]

Relax. You never had a buddy disagree with you and tell you to fuck off?

The Public can't pay cash for medical procedures because they don't start saving early. If they took that $800 a month their family insurance policy cost them and put that away in savings they'd be better off. Ok, my bad and I took it the wrong way; I apologize :) I am not 100% sure how I feel on helmet laws, was just giving a different point of view to talk about

I see what you are saying but the issue here is we never know what is really going to happen in our future. Your idea works great if you are a healthy family that never has a tragedy. For example my uncle at 26 was in a car accident that left him paralized from the waist down; he is now 51. He has had so many surgeries and been in the hospital so much that his bills are easily in the millions of dollars; almost every year he meets his Medicare limit. So in this case lets say he put away $800 for even 26 years; that would be $249,600 which would not even be enough to cover his first few surgeries. (Funny twist on this is he ws not wearing his seatbelt and this resulted in him being thrown from the car and breaking his back; to me very similar to seat belt laws vs helmet laws)

My point is more that people need to smarten up and see the big picture sometimes. Yeah it is a freedom to not wear a helmet, but sometimes things are done for a reason because of the severe consequences and are they really worth it. And let's face it some people are not smart enough to make their own rational decisions...

I always wear a helmet and I admit sometimes I hate it; especially when it is 100 degrees outside. Yet I know the consequences if I do wreck without one, so to me they are not worth it. Wish more people saw actions in the future rather than the now. Look at people with brain injuries; it is sad that some can barely talk or walk.

Now whether this should be a law is a huge debate, but I always find myself thinking how is it really different from seat belt laws :dunno:

[TinkerinWstuff]

I figured we had enough chats that you would not have taken it personally.

But your argument comes back to Dirks point, why not outlaw motorcycling altogether?

[#1Townie]

The insurance is a bullshit argument. Doesnt matter what side you want to put it on. Our insurance rates are through the roof because morons have to go to the hospital for everything. My tummy hurts. My finger hurts. I dont feel good. Should my skin look like this. I shoved a battery up my ass.

Plus this shouldnt affect any of us now right? The healthcare problem has been solved. But thats a different debate on its own.

[#1Townie]

I figured we had enough chats that you would not have taken it personally.

But your argument comes back to Dirks point, why not outlaw motorcycling altogether?

You sgut your mouth with that shit. Dont give the idiots any new ideas.

[TinkerinWstuff]

Fat people eating a supersize value meal do more to impact insurance rates than a motorcycle rider choosing to wear a helmet or not.

Why don't we use that argument to legislate fitness?

[bulldog]

Fat people eating a supersize value meal do more to impact insurance rates than a motorcycle rider choosing to wear a helmet or not.

Why don't we use that argument to legislate fitness? Well....I am all for that. Don't even get me started on that topic!!!! :D

I understand the "losing our rights" side too. Like is said was just a different spin on the topic; damn board is too dead nowadays so got to throw some fuel on it :lol:

[grim]

IB4 doggie dog bulldog schools yer ass on fitness!



:lol: JM Nate you know this!

[bulldog]

IB4 doggie dog bulldog schools yer ass on fitness!



:lol: JM Nate you know this! :spit: I'd love to school the world on fitness, but nobody listens or has the determination to do it (you excluded and a few of the regulars on the Fitness thread). I'll never understand it myself as we have one body that has to last many years. Oh well different topic...

My proof; Jack LaLane that was able to do more at 80 then most people can do it 40
http://www.jacklalanne.com/jacks-adventures/feats-and-honors.php

[#1Townie]

Oh fuck here we go. Yeah why stop at just fitness? We should all be locked in rubber rooms. We cant feed ourselves. We cant safely drive... hell we cant safely do anything. Hell even sex. We screw that up all the time. From now on no social contact as our feelings will get hurt. Nope just let the machines do everything while we hide. Please save us from ourselves!

[#1Townie]

Or maybe some od us would rather die from eating bad then live to see 150 fucking years old. You only have one life... ohhhhh shit. I hear it coming. YOLO MOTHA FUCKAS!!!!!!!

I like life. Doesnt mean i want to end up being a infant again.

[bulldog]

Or maybe some od us would rather die from eating bad then live to see 150 fucking years old. You only have one life... ohhhhh shit. I hear it coming. YOLO MOTHA FUCKAS!!!!!!!

I like life. Doesnt mean i want to end up being a infant again. I don't want to live to be a 100 even; that would suck to me. My goal is just to live the best quality years that I can.

So I don't derail topic, just like for ME wearing a helmet sucks, but I'd rather live to ride 30 more years than enjoy my rides now with no helmet and possible get cut short on them. Everyone is different though....

[TinkerinWstuff]

Watch for my political ads on tv as I run for office: helmet laws and salads for fat fucks.

[dirkterrell]

I see what you are saying but the issue here is we never know what is really going to happen in our future.

The entire healthcare industry is a monopolistic scam perpetrated on the public with the consent of our elected government. That industry has gotten anti-competitive legislation passed left and right and we are paying for it out the nose. Look at the cost of various common procedures (e.g. setting broken bones, child birth, etc) in 1960 versus now and scale the 1960 cost by inflation to today. The current cost is ~10 times the inflated 1960 cost. Why? Because of the anti-competitive laws pushed by the industry and passed by our politicians.

It used to be that people paid for such things out of pocket. Now we have to have insurance to cover even basic things. Insurance used to be for catastrophic things like you describe with your uncle. Until we as a a society have an honest discussion about this, the problem is only going to grow. And since the federal government is so intertwined in healthcare via Medicare/Medicaid, it's threatening us on an even broader scale. Nothing can increase in cost ~10% a year indefinitely, and we're approach the end.

[laspariahs]

Watch for my political ads on tv as I run for office: helmet laws and salads for fat fucks.

Yes, people will always vote for the people that tell them what they want to hear, not the truth. Which is why people complain about politicians. Sometimes the truth sucks.

[bulldog]

The entire healthcare industry is a monopolistic scam perpetrated on the public with the consent of our elected government. That industry has gotten anti-competitive legislation passed left and right and we are paying for it out the nose. Look at the cost of various common procedures (e.g. setting broken bones, child birth, etc) in 1960 versus now and scale the 1960 cost by inflation to today. The current cost is ~10 times the inflated 1960 cost. Why? Because of the anti-competitive laws pushed by the industry and passed by our politicians.

It used to be that people paid for such things out of pocket. Now we have to have insurance to cover even basic things. Insurance used to be for catastrophic things like you describe with your uncle. Until we as a a society have an honest discussion about this, the problem is only going to grow. And since the federal government is so intertwined in healthcare via Medicare/Medicaid, it's threatening us on an even broader scale. Nothing can increase in cost ~10% a year indefinitely, and we're approach the end. I agree and also feel the health insurance we have now is a shame. Commercial insurance is not about providing healthcare, but about the profit the insurance company can make. It is worse than ever now because United Healthcare, the single largest healthcare provider in the US, is now just buying up other commercial insurance to strengthen their monopoly (Pacificare, Healthnet, Sierra, Oxford, and some others). This "monolpoly" means they can set the standard for what a insurance will pay. Like you said we are forced to have health insurance now to cover basic things. Most policitians don't make insurance decisions based on the community, but more on who they can get to vote for them by going with these companies. Insurance companies are so powerul now that we have made it damn near impossible to get rid of. Reminds me of fossil fuels; we all know it will never go away because way to much money is linked with it.

Then we can get into "pre-existing" conditions. So wait, I need healthcare the most, but since I am sick you are not going to insure me". If that doesn't show it is all about profit then I don't know what else does!

[TinkerinWstuff]

Who said a business wasn't about making profit? They aren't there to be a social program

[bulldog]

Who said a business wasn't about making profit? They aren't there to be a social program True, but they pick and select their customers based on making a profit. From a business stance it is great, but for someone that needs insurance it sucks and basically leads them to going bankrupt; you need the care no matter what so bills just pile up.

[dirkterrell]

I agree and also feel the health insurance we have now is a shame. Commercial insurance is not about providing healthcare, but about the profit the insurance company can make.

It's much more than just insurance. It's the entire healthcare industry. Insurance is just a way to shield people from directly seeing what's paid for various procedures so they won't get all up in arms like they would if they had to pay out of their own pockets. Until this issue is dealt with, efforts to do things like "reform Medicare" are just shuffling chairs on the deck of a sinking ship.